School shootings such as last week’s in Cleveland bring the lament that if only a teacher had been armed. . . . Oregon high school English teacher Shirley Katz is taking the notion to the natural next level, challenging her school district’s gun ban. Oregon allows concealed-carry permit holders to have guns in public buildings, and she wants to take her 9 mm Glock pistol to work. One reason: “I refuse to let my ex-husband bully me.” The other: The Virginia Tech and Amish school massacres “reinforced my belief we have to take action. We can’t just acquiesce as we have been taught to do.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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321 Comments
Rhonda,
The question posed in the topic is rather biased.
A better question would be:
Should teachers be allowed to carry guns?
I say yes.
If a teacher gets a concealed carry license what is the difference in letting them carry everywhere but at school?
This idea that somehow allowing law abiding citizens, who have passed back ground checks and have proven themselves to be responsible, to carry guns in schools is going to be bad is plain absurd.
As it stands now, schools are already so called “gun free” zones.
How has that been working out for school shootings?
Seems to me, that people who want to bring a gun to school to hurt others don’t care about the law, they don’t care about the signs that say “gun free.”
So why don’t we start allowing the law abiding people who want only to have the means to defend themselves to do just that?
And it all of these school shootings, what do we find?
We find parents with poorly secured firearms that their kids get hold of and use.
Teachers with guns? BAD IDEA.
The teacher predisposed to shoot a student most likely will and for any paranoid perception of threat. Other teachers may have their guns taken from them and used against them in a moment of anger.
No the solution here is trigger locks and more vigilance on the part of gun owners. They have their rights. Attendant is responsibility.
JR,
How will you know if a teacher is carrying concealed?
They are concealed weapons!
Give me one example of someone with a concealed carry license having their gun taken from them and then used against them or others?
Give me an example of someone with a concealed carry license shooting someone only because of a perception of a threat?
How is someone carrying concealed “predisposed” to shooting? That is a flat out lie pulled straight from your behind.
This is the same type of worst case scenario dooms day predictions that the liberals love to use, but never actually happen.
Typical anti-gun nonsense. Big on rhetoric low on fact or substance.
On top of that, most of these school shootings were not with weapons that parents didn’t lock up properly.
Was that the case at Columbine? No.
Was that the case at VT? No.
More BS
I would definitely be worried about some punk-ass kid overpowering a teacher and taking his/her gun.
Someone should make concealable tranquilizer guns :)
Actually, I am only half-kidding, now that I think about it. You can stop a shooter in his tracks and then you can pick his brain after he wakes up…and then we can figure out what makes these suicidal school shooters tick.
I guess we should take all the police officers out of schools or disarm them too.
A Police officer could be over powered and have his/her gun taken as well.
Actually, the numbers of Officers shot with their own weapon is rather disturbing.
Do you think we should disarm the police in schools or remove them too?
Nathan,I don’t really have an opinion on concealed carry legislation. I have not seen any evidence that increased guns cause more gun crimes, and so I’ll err on the side of more liberties. My own thoughts on guns are somewhat irrelevant.
I think that if there was a way to stop a school shooting without gunning down these kids dead in their tracks, it would be good. Don’t you agree?
That’s really all my comment meant.
Teachers could carry a gun from their home to their car into the school parking lot.
But into schools, no. Increase security is the answer.
At no time would be it right for teacher to pull out gun pointing at a student. When a threating student gets rowdy in class, security should be called.
If a school wants metal detectors ,get them. Get security to check everyone entering schools.
Let the guns stay in pockets outside of classrooms.
The gun lobby needs a zone they can’t influence.
Where are the parents or guardians controlling troubled kids?
Good parenting, social consciousness and well enough run school systems that engage students and don’t just pass them on, can overcome gun violence.
Many schools don’t have students threating to murder others or teachers.
When minors get weapons some adult is irresponsible letting guns get into their hands. Adults let their children run around the streets at all hours.
Some kids drop out of school and parent(s) do nothing about it.
Some parents suck at their job and society is damaged by out of control kids. Some parents never grew up properly are criminals themselves.
Some are paranoid is why they carry a gun in the first place.
The gun lobby doesn’t recognize those feelings in people. They will easily hand over guns to overly scared and paranoid people.
Some states easily hand over gun licenses without training being required. Getting a gun is much easier than receiving a teaching license.
Bad teachers exist with Degrees and training.
People with poor judgment and paranoid feelings were given a CC license.
Should teachers carry guns?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! Saying this tongue in cheek, I realize that while a teacher with a gun might be able to stop a rogue student, who is to stop the rogue teacher?
Some of our junior high school teachers might have been doing the world a favor had they “exercised their authority” with a gun but I doubt the media nor the community would have seen it that way!
And anyone with a high school diploma cannot honestly say they have never seen a teacher pushed to the point of being ready to snap.
Rustyford,
What is stopping any of these so called teachers who are about to snap from bringing a gun to school right now?
Nothing.
Still more of the same old senseless arguments based on no fact.
If there is going to be a “rogue” teacher, not allowing those teacherrs who want to carry concealed isn’t going to stop one.
What a joke.
Mrage,
What is the difference in a teacher being allowed to carry everywhere but a school?
Seems like you are more concerned with being against guns than allowing a law abiding citizen the ability to defend themselves.
You present the same old tired arguments about training and getting guns easily.
Just give me one case of someone with a concealed carry license using their gun stupidly or inappropiately.
I would be surprised if you could.
In my high school, a Priest, shoved a girl down the stairwell, she broke her arm. He threatened to fight guys in the class but everyone walked out.
A Priest flipped out and violent to students. He got bent because one guy came to class without a pen or pencil and asked others for it.
He was bent in personality long before that event.
What student doesn’t remember some poor personality teachers.
I had plenty! In third grade, I refused to do math and my Nun teacher screamed, yelled and threw erasers at me. We were age 8.
An 8 year guy then chased around the room and she screamed even louder. The Nun went nuts.
Tried to flunk me from 3rd grade for failing only Math. I transferred to that school mid semester and it was a protest. One day my family suddenly moved and I wasn’t prepared for it to be in unfamiliar school.
That was only time summer of 3rd to 4th grade I ever attended summer school.
Every student has a story about crazy teachers. If they had a gun, kids would have got shot.
Tara,
I agree completely. But I look at the facts.
The facts are that most of these school shootings all end the same way.
The guys doing the shooting choose to stop and kill themselves while the police wait outside organizing.
The police are not going to come running in to save anyone until it is too late in most cases. That is a fact.
So people like Mrage and other will say we need more security. Is there going to be a security officer in every room? Every hall way? With every Student?
The simple sad truth is that most of the shooters shoot as many people as they can until they run out of ammo, people, or finally decide to shoot themselves.
The Police?
They are outside organizing.
Ask yourselves this simple question:
If you were one of those students at VT would you:
-line up against the wall and wait to be shot like all the others?
-wish that one of those teachers had a gun to stop this guy?
-wish that you had a gun to stop this guy?
Which is it? Are you going to be a sheep and wait helplessly to be slaughtered by some crazy person or are you going to wish that someone, anyone would stop the man about to kill you?
Or perhaps you will sit there wishing someone would have read the guys medical files….
Either way you are going to die.
All the wishes you have in one hand or a gun in the other. Which is it?
Mrage,
Nothing but pure speculation.
If simply having a gun on you when you are upset causes you to shoot someone, I am sure you can point out all the cases of where someone was already simply carrying a gun and when someone made them upset they shot them?
Concealed carry has been legal now in almost every state in the country starting with one 20 years ago.
How many cases are there of someone who is carrying concealed legally getting upset and shooting someone because of it?
Nathan,
I asked the WPD for that information, people with CC licenses, what crimes are they committing. It was an email, I probably could get some kind of data in person.
People are arrested for pointing their guns when they weren’t supposed to.
People are irresponsible in many ways and you don’t think they are with a gun, that’s not reasonable.
I know gun owners left handguns laying their house loaded. Kids with easy access to guns and parents not around all the time, pick them up and play.
Kids shoot each other all the time.
I don’t have the data how irresponsible with guns some people are, but I’m accepting they are.
You know some states don’t require training for a CC license. Its one time training in KS. People with drivers license have to renew.
Why not the gun license and skills with a weapon, renewed sooner than 6 years. Every 4 years, eye and skills tests with a weapon, to continue having the CC license.
Teachers don’t need guns in schools, security should be increased. That’s the school authority to do.
School authority control the grounds and responsible for teachers and students.
I prefer school systems don’t let teacher arm themselves.
Your NRA in Kansas isn’t trying to promote that legislation.
So no examples then huh?
Nathan,
Good luck promoting guns in teacher’s hand. Get out in front of that.
People with CC licenses acting irresponsibility surely GOOGLE could find some examples but one is too many, right?
Your claiming no one with CC license is ever irresponsible.
Your overusing that law-abiding proclaim.
Some law abiding are complete social jerks and can bully others. Some are alcoholics and drug abusers, yes they have a CC license.
Some are paranoid personalities with a gun and you know that.
Not everyone with a hunting license is a responsible hunter are they!
Mrage,
You are using a straw man argument.
I never made any blanket statements about being responsible or irresponsible.
I said that the examples you give do not happen and asked you for proof that they do.
I bet there are teachers who drive irresponsibly too, but do you support taking away all driving privledges of teachers?
Not long ago, many schools had marksmanship classes, and there were weapons in the school, in some areas of the country.
Can’t recall any murders, or any teachers going nuts, maybe we could ask an education history buff.
To arm teachers or even allow those that have a ccp to have them in school is to put one more responsibility on them going beyond their required role as a educator. We end up expecting of them already to be Doctors both medical and physiological, councilors, mentors and yes even at time take the role of parent.
Arming teachers and turning our schools into a fortress is contrary to there intent, as places of learning.
These for the most part are isolated incidents when looked at through how many children go to school, how many school days pass without such incidents and how many schools there are. Perhaps that is why it is so frightening when it occurs, it is the randomness of it that is frightening.
As to why they happen, there are certain things need improvement such as school bullying reactions.To adults there are just childish acts, but to a kid whom has to face them everyday it is earth shaking and turns what should be a learning experience into a living hell.
It has been said before it is not about the ready access to a firearm, in the past there were far more guns in homes then today. But something has changed to cause this up tick in incidents, even other children when asked why do not have a explanation for it! Again it is the randomness of it that is frightening there is no one cause that can be pointed to. Almost every kid plays violent video games, almost every kid has been bullied, yet they do not start shooting up their school.
At this point in the discussion, I am not sure which we should ban: kids or adults.
Do you think increasing security will help?
In Cleveland, Ohio, for 300 students, there were:26 Security Cameras – which did not alert anyone that there was a problem.Metal Detectors – Not in use.Armed Security Guards – Which apparently was ineffective.
Sorry but is this a school or a brig? Call out the Marines (sorry Nathan) school is session today.
Maybe, just maybe, our first line of defense should have been a teacher with a gun. Then help could have arrived when it was needed.
CNN- Conceal Carry on College Campus
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TpSUBE3lMPMUtah – conceal and carry on campus(check out the teacher Barbara???? Nash) 0!!!0
I support the idea 100%. Teachers, bus drivers and cafeteria workers who have passed the requirements and have a carry permit should be allowed to carry at anytime any place including where they are employed. In fact anybody should be allowed to do so and the law should make the right clear. An employer should not be allowed to take away any American’s right to bear arms.
OMG…………what an absurd thread!
WHY would a teacher think they would need to carry a firearm to their building?
I can’t say I know any educators who would choose the CC option even if the could. With the exception of the SRO’s, community schools should be (and currently are) a no firearms zone.
Leave it that way.
Nathan, take your NRA parade down another street.
No the solution here is trigger locks and more vigilance on the part of gun owners. They have their rights. Attendant is responsibility.
Posted by: J R | October 14, 2007 at 01:33 AM
Trigger locks! TRIGGER LOCKS!
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LLLLLLL……..KK…..KK
..OOOOO…….NN…….NN
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BBBBB………YY………..YY
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Oh no! We can’t allow teachers to have guns in schools!
We can’t allow kids to have guns in schools either, but they still bring them to school anyway, somehow.
“The police are not going to come running in to save anyone until it is too late in most cases. That is a fact.”
It is not a fact — certainly they don’t often kick down doors to shoot a perp, they take a reasoned agressive approach — so they don’t barge in and shoot the wrong person ……
“I support the idea 100%. Teachers, bus drivers and cafeteria workers who have passed the requirements and have a carry permit should be allowed to carry at anytime any place including where they are employed. In fact anybody should be allowed to do so and the law should make the right clear. An employer should not be allowed to take away any American’s right to bear arms.”
Posted by: Kev | October 14, 2007 at 06:57 AM
An employer should absolutely be able to dictate your terms of employment, you don’t like the policy go work somewhere else —like a shooting range where you can play with your guns all day ….
Yeah, trigger locks. That will solve the problem!
Now how do you force those locks on to the guns and how do you keep the keys away from the kids?
Locks for trigger lock keys! That’s it, we’ll mandate locks for trigger lock keys!
Now how do you force those locks on to the guns and how do you keep the keys away from the kids, and how do you keep the keys to the trigger lock keys away from the kids….
If the cops were always there when needed, why are there any crimes?
“If the cops were always there when needed,…”Posted by: Dimmocrat
No “if” about it, look what happened at Virginia Tech and the police were there.
http://www.vpc.org/studies/cccrimst.htm
Section IV: When Is A Criminal Not A Criminal
A major loophole in the Florida law is the way it defines a “criminal” for the purpose of denying a concealed carry license. The statute sets up a hierarchy of offenses, each of which is treated differently. The end result is a system that judges eligibility for a license based not on the severity of the crime committed, but rather on the technical disposition of the charge. Moreover, no matter what crime an applicant may have committed, or how that crime is disposed of by the criminal justice system, there is an avenue available to virtually every applicant to attempt to obtain a concealed carry license.
* Persons convicted of a felony are generally ineligible to receive a concealed carry license. However, felons convicted under state law may apply through the Office of Executive Clemency for restoration of their firearm privileges. Many individuals convicted of serious felonies have used the clemency process to obtain a concealed carry permit.
20 years ago I would have said NO WAY. But with conditions as they are, I agree with Nathan. Teachers should be able to carry. But JR has a good point about teachers having their weapon taken away. Yes, the weapon is supposed to be concealed, but there’s the possibility of the conspicuous bulge.
As for your employer banning guns, NEWS FLASH! When you walk into the workplace, you leave your “RIGHTS” at the door. Think about it.
Posted by: Clean House | October 14, 2007 at 07:51 AM
Nice ASCII graphics Capn.
I suppose this means I can write Phillip Brownlee and tell him that since you volunteered to be outed if you ever used any other nic than Capn, I can send that email right off and get you outed for using a troll nic.
Capn is now known as Capn Troll.
Busted.
I don’t like the idea of teachers having guns in the classroom. For one, in order for it to be effective, it would have to be loaded…The kids could get ahold of it.
I don’t blame a teacher who is being stalked by her ex to want to defend herself. But to do it in front of kids…what is she going to do- whip it out and fire at him amongst the kids? What if she missed?
Was that the case at Columbine? No.
More BS
Posted by: Nathan
Actually, Nathan, Eric Harris grew up here in Wichita. His dad was a transport pilot in the Air Force.
Apparently, a short time before the shootings, the dad walked into his kid’s bedroom and saw an illegally modified sawed-off shotgun.
If this doesn’t constitute “poorly secured firearms,” I don’t know the meaning of the term.
If your kid downloads music and you don’t even know it, you’re responsible for a heavy fine.
But if they have illegal weapons that you know about and gun down classmates in a horrible massacre, thanks to the NRA, you have no responsibility.
The beauty of CCH is that the bad guys don’t know who could be potentially armed.
If teachers were allowed to carry in the class room, the deterrent effect would be signifigant. These nitwits that walk into a school or university don’t want to get in a gun fight, they want to kill people.
Walking into a classroom knowing there is a chance that one of the people in there is armed would prevent most mass murderers from pulling their weapon.
Allow teachers to carry concealed? Why stop with teachers? Why can’t Nathan carry concealed at WSU?
Hank
“I was / was not injured in the line of duty” Kansas –
I don’t know or care what you’re talking about.
You don’t get to make the BLOG all about you anymore.
Walk. On. By.
Again, this is an absurd thread.
This will never happen anyway, so the you NRA cultist can stop drooling.
Considering that the self-disclosed teachers on this blog are the biggest proponents of ‘force people to do it my way’, teachers being armed is a bad idea. Besides, we should be asking why aren’t the government schools safe?
What are “government schools” anyway Proudman?
I don’t know about any other community school, but I am absolutely sure mine is “safe”. Of course, anything could happen, the Russkies could nuke us tomorrow, but we cannot live our lives with the paranoia of “what if…..”.
Once the children are in the building in the morning, there is only one entrance open. This entrance is constantly monitored by an adult or adults.
Paranoia will destroy ‘ya.
Where is N.O.W. to back up this woman?
The state has supposedly thought this woman adequately did whatever she needed to to carry concealed.Now that she has a current situation in her life that she feels threatened by an ex husband, we’re suppose to tell her, oh no don’t try and protect yourself. That her ex knowing this, would not take the opportunity if it was presented.
You people are funny. Bush doesn’t allow bush haters around his speeches, that somehow violates the first amendment. Bush is wiretapping in the U.S. that is a violation of fourth amendment.
BUT… We hate the second amendment, so you can violate that all day, thats fine.
No, your not funny, just plain sad.
Apophis,
Go look at your paystub. Track the money back to where it came from. You might learn who your employer is.
Turns out the government funds, operates, and otherwise completely control what you call ‘community schools’. It’s far more accurate to refer to them as government schools.
Very intense training, combined with stress evaluation, and I would have no problem with ccl for teachers. The last thing anybody wants is a psyched out teacher. Stress and psych evaluations could catch the ones who can’t handle it, and show the ones who would have no problem handling it. The ‘tweeners? Sorry Charlie, no carry license.
Guns are banned from schools. They are banned for students, and they are banned for staff. There is no functional reason for anyone to be carrying a gun at school except for a school resource officer, because it is consistent with his/her duties. Teachers are supposed to be roll models for students.
I agree with Apophis, this is an absurd thread.
Apophis, I have no idea where you get your info from, but just ask all the students at all the schools where there have been deadly incidents, and I would bet a dollar to a dognut they would second, and approve, any motion that would allow teachers to carry guns.
“Paranoia will destroy ‘ya.”? Someone firing a gun at students is hardly paranoia.
Wasn’t there a story awhild back about a kid who brought a gun to school….
and neither he nor anyone else got killed?
It was in Missourii I think.
Might have had a more tragic ending with an armed teacher.
Might have had a more tragic ending with an armed teacher.Posted by: J R
Maybe or maybe not.
Think VT.Might have had a less tragic ending with an armed teacher.
Well I have a young son.
Let’s say he wants to go shoot up the school.
First, he has to be emotionally disturbed or otherwise troubled.
Failure on mine and the schools part to notice
THEN he has to get a gun.
Failure on my part to be aware of his activities or secure my firearms. Easy availability of guns.
Then he has to get it into the school.
(
Failure or lack of metal detectors or security personell.
Arming teachers is addressing the problem at the end of the equation.
Ah, the gun fetishists are out in full force today.
Here’s the way to offer yourself up as a true defender of yourself and others: don’t carry a *concealed* weapon, strap on a holster and John Wayne yourself everywhere you go. None of this “a mugger might *think* you’re packing heat and won’t attack you;” instead, the bad guys will *know* you’ve got a gun because it’s strapped to your hip, out there in the open where everyone can see it!
Hell. Why bother with a wimpy-assed handgun? Just carry your AK-47 as you shop the aisles of Dillon’s! Everyone will know you’re not someone to mess with and you’ll damn-sure be certain to get your double coupons!
Here’s the reason why gun-fetishists are so excited by carrying a *concealed* weapon: they know if they walked through the mall or into a Spangles or entered a Sunday School class with a clearly-observable weapon, they’d generally be recognized as a certifiable nut.
But with a “concealed” weapon, gun fetishists can fantasize about being Clint Eastwood or James Bond and killing bad guys and bedding Ursela Andress who’ll be so impressed with their macho cool.
If carrying a gun is so damned beneficial to society, why *conceal* it?
Even the gun fetishists know why. It’s because they’re cowards. It’s because they’re quivering in fear everywhere they go. It’s because they’re wrong.
One teacher, shooting one armed and dangerous student, would that get any publicity?
Ever hear of the word “deterent”??
It happens now, because the homicidal/suicidal nuts know that shooting kids in a school is like shooting fish in a barrel.
The “fish” never shoot back.
As far as the “will it happen” opinions — most of you anti 2nd Amendment types never thought we wouild get “concealed carry” did you?
Also, a concealed weapon is less likey to be stolen.
Concealed weapons also have more deterrent effect, since the bad guys don’t know who else has guns.
God guns and gays. Fifty posts by ten thirty today.
Yep. Need a topic? God, guns and gays will ALWAYS generate a ton of posts.
Proudman……stop putting the RW spin on our schools.
Duh! Money for communtiy schools does come from taxes, through the “government” you hate so much. So does the money for the roads you drive on. What is your point?
Fact of the matter is that teachers should not and will not be armed in our schools.
JM Walker…..what “info” are you referring to? The only FACT I put out there is that MY school is secure. How can you contest that?
This thread isn’t absurd now, it is asinine.
That’s some funny stuff for sure there Mondeyhawk. You’re good!
Again, this is addressing the problem at the end. Further? A chaotic event like a school shooting is not the easiest place to be rational. Toss in a couple more armed and frightened people and you likely get MORE bloodshed by confusion and crossfire.
Hey J R,
“Arming teachers is addressing the problem at the end of the equation.”
And your point is?
If everything else fails, just line up and die like sheep?
If your son knew that it was very likely a teacher was able to defend herself and her class from an armed, crazed intruder he probably wouldn’t get to “. . .the end of the equation”. In fact, we are talking about an entirely different equation!
Hank
You are just plain NUTS Hank.
Well,
Let’s shift from talk of my son.
He has no access to firearms and is quite well adjusted.
If ANY kid wants to shoot up a school and gets past all the qualifiers I already gave, the student has “the drop” on any armed teacher in the situation. Failing armed AND clairvoyant teachers that is. A kid fearing an armed teacher simply shoots the teacher first.
Strategic advantage of arming teachers against possible school shooters: None.
I don’t like the idea of teachers having guns in the classroom. For one, in order for it to be effective, it would have to be loaded…PMOM
That has got to be a candidate for the dumbest post of the day!
Say Hud, at VA Tech, even the campus cops were banned from having guns.
Lotta good it does to have unarmed police.
Teachers who have a concealed carry permit, should be allowed to carry in school.
And cops without guns, what’s the point?
Why do you keep beating this dead horse? This is NOT going to happen.
Gun banners first used the school shootings to justify more gun control laws.
The inability of government to enforce existing gun control laws has now become obvious too almost everybody.
So gun banners now minimalize the problem with guns in schools – when the discussion turns to allowing teachers with carry permits to carry in school.
As as Hokie, I would give anything if only one teacher or student had had a gun that awful day.
Why stop at schools? why not courtrooms and city hall. Why is the first place Legislators banned guns was the capital building? Why stop at teachers shouldn’t students be allowed to carry guns, many are 18
“”"OMG…………what an absurd thread!WHY would a teacher think they would need to carry a firearm to their building?
I can’t say I know any educators who would choose the CC option even if the could.”"”
The point is that they should have the right to decide for themselves. Let’s say I am a teacher and I give a student a D because he didn’t do asignments. Let’s say the student says “OK Mr Teacher, I am gonna catch you after school and beat your head in with a bat”. Are you saying that I have no right to defend my life?
I bet there are teachers who drive irresponsibly too, but do you support taking away all driving privledges of teachers?
Posted by: Nathan | October 14, 2007 at 03:26 AM
==========================Nathan, when is the last time you heard of ANY body driving a car down a school corridor???
Driving a car, and carrying a weapon IN school??? And YOU are the one always griping about some kind of straw man??? Hmmmm….
I suppose I could just let this one go due to the lateness of the hour it was posted…
armed students would also keep police abuse in check recently you had a cop go on a shooting spree in Wisconsin. The “dont tazer me bro” incidence would have come out differnent had he or his friends been armed. Kent State if the students had the means to fight back?
Would it be okay for the teacher who stapled the note to the student’s head to have a gun?
Nice uran legend rox…………..got proof of your idiotic claim?
let’s try “Urban Legend”
NORRISTOWN, Pa. (AP) — A troubled teenager accused of plotting a school attack built up a stash of weapons with the help of his mother, authorities said Friday. Michele Cossey, 46, was arrested Friday on charges of illegally buying her home-schooled son, Dillon, a .22-caliber handgun, a .22-caliber rifle and a 9 mm semiautomatic rifle with a laser scope.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hQJTz5etV1jS5HS2aFExRoauSbWQD8S82GFO1
“”"An employer should absolutely be able to dictate your terms of employment, you don’t like the policy go work somewhere else —like a shooting range where you can play with your guns all day …. “”"
An employer should only be able to dictate the terms of your employment that have an EFFECT on the business. What you do otherwise should be left up to you. If he wants you to work the night shift in a high crime area, he has no business telling you that you cannot protect yourself. If you have a permit to carry, you should be able to make your own decision. An employer is entitled to your labour- not your life. The boss man is not gonna do anything for you if you are dead. In fact most of them won’t even bury your ass or even send your final pay to your wife and kids.
“”"Here’s the way to offer yourself up as a true defender of yourself and others: don’t carry a *concealed* weapon, strap on a holster and John Wayne yourself everywhere you go.”"”
You don’t want those with evil intent to know whether you are armed or not armed.
Ummmm Kev?? Would not carrying a weapon to your place of work have an effect on your job??
Just wondering….
PLYMOUTH, Ind. (AP) — A fourth-grade teacher’s aide in Plymouth has resigned after reportedly trying to staple a piece of paper to a student’s forehead.
Plymouth Superintendent John Hill would not identify the aide or the class at Jefferson Elementary School, and Principal Bob Remenih said he could not comment on a student or personnel matter.
But Natalie Wilson, the fourth-grader’s mother, told the South Bend Tribune that the principal called her shortly before her daughter got on the school bus on Monday.
Wilson said her daughter told her she had picked up a Post-It note from the floor and stuck it to her forehead. She said the aide told her to remove the paper from her forehead or he would staple it there permanently, and when the student failed to remove the paper, the aide approached her with a stapler and pushed it against her forehead.
The mother says there were two holes in the girl’s head.
http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=7198771
“”"As for your employer banning guns, NEWS FLASH! When you walk into the workplace, you leave your “RIGHTS” at the door. Think about it. “”"
You don’t leave your rights at the door. Slavery ended long ago.
“”"Ummmm Kev?? Would not carrying a weapon to your place of work have an effect on your job??
Just wondering….”"”
No it wouldn’t
Ohhh OK…. :-)
Rox?? You got anything there about what happened with that school incident in Indiana??? I would hope the school took some kind of action against that aide!!
No, Chas., I don’t. The date on the story (this is a TV station story) is Oct 11, 2007 07:36 AM CDT. Of course there could be much more. We’ve only heard one side of the story. Nothing from the teacher or the school.
Well, Rox, if you find something more, please post, OK???
A “A fourth-grade teacher’s aide” is not a teacher.
Rox………your earlier thread claimed it was a TEACHER.
Do you care to admit you are a liar now or shall I remind you of that fact forever?
…. and where should the teacher keep it? In her purse? Strapped to their calves? In a pants pocket? What about when the teacher turns their back, should she call for back up ?
Absurd
Gee, Ken… I thought about that myself… The male teachers would have to go back to wearing sport coats or suits, and the women teachers would have to wear dress up suits, with jackets, or pant suits… Could all this be some kind of ploy to force teachers to dress differently??? Hmmmm…
Some of my son’s teacher’s aides have been better than his actual teachers.
Sorry Apophis, but I call my PA a doctor too.
that’s your right pmom, but it isn’t the issue. rox claimed it was a teacher who did this act of stupidity. she lied, it was not a teacher.
big deal Apophis. To call her a liar over it is silly and petty.
It’s pretty silly to make the allegation anyway. She is a liar.
This entire thread is just plain stupid.
…………..let teachers carry guns in schools, asinine
Apophis,
I admit to an incorrect statement, as I wasn’t aware of all the details until I found the article. That was my sin. Mea culpa. Am I now damned to hell for my “lie”?
FWIW, I highly respect teachers and have many friends who are or have been teachers. My comment was not against teachers, in general (or teachers’ aides, to be correct), but an attempt to show that, although 99.9% of people MAY be “good”, it’s possible for a bad apple to slip in, be it a teacher, a police officer, a clergy, or the average man/woman on the street.
And if you hadn’t gotten upset that my comment was about a “teacher”, you might have noticed that I’m on your side regarding teachers carrying guns in school.
Oh, well. Live and learn.
Let’s combine America’s two most irrational passions: football and guns.
At the beginning of every NFL game each coach is given a gun with one bullet. Forget instant replay and its delays. Let ‘em shoot the guy who’s broken away and running for an uncontested touchdown. Let each coach choose to use his bullet to wipe out a referee who blows a call. Hell, before the opening kick-off, have the two head coaches meet Dodge City-style at the 50 yard line for a showdown!
Football is already the great American metaphor for war, so lets put some meaningful casualties into the mix. Make those $5 Million-a-year college dropouts put something on the line to earn the money they’re paid.
Apophis,
Roads are government roads.
I don’t hate government. It’s a necessary thing that has gotten out of control.
I do have a severe dislike of smug government employees who like to tell the rest of us to GTH. You would think that such educated people would recognize that they force the rest of us to support them. Otherwise they would actually have to be reasonable human beings.
Ummmm there is something about this Apophis that seems fairly RW today, for some reason?? I wouldnt want to make any assertions or anything…. but….
Rox…………..truce accepted
Chas………….I am in NO WAY RW. I just do not think it is neccessary to have guns in schools. I see no reason for this whatsoever. I don’t see how that makes me RW?
GTH then proudman. The only “out of control government” is the dictatorial regime of bush and the neocons.
I fail to see any rational reason for allowing teachers to carry guns.
Apophis… Thats good… I had a strange thought that your nic may have been stolen upthread… I am with you 100% on teachers having guns in schools… assinine!!
Dear Blaidd_Drwg,
That might come from your inability to recognize a rational argument.
Why don’t we ask the professors at VT if they might come up with a rational reason for CCH?
Hank
Really impressive debate skills Apophis.
Isn’t it funny how teachers are entrusted to educate children but are somehow unable to be trusted with a firearm?
Apophis — Am I mistaken, but is some of this noise about teachers carrying guns coming from some of the same people who think teachers should dress up a little more when teaching???
There are millions of school kids in classes every day across the country.
The chance that a teacher with a gun would
1. be present when a school shooting is about to take place
2. be in a position to take out the shooter without endangering other students in the process
3. take down the shooter in a minimum of time so that he isn’t able to get a lot of shots off himself
is possible, but highly unlikely.
Like getting struck by lightning or eaten by sharks unlikely.
Teachers carrying guns would have no impact on school shootings.
I personally don’t care if they can or can’t, but it will have no impact.
School shootings are too rare of an event for it to have an impact.
CapN… I would be concerned that teachers utilizing CC would be perfect targets for the school shooters… Since all would know teachers were armed, the wacko shooters would shot the teacher FIRST, then shoot others… JMHO
Ooops I think JR said something like that upthread… Sorry, JR!!
Hank
While you’re at it, why not give teachers/college professors a tactical nuke? You are a gun nut, period.
Proudman, for the record, I do own firearms. Three to be precise. I have no desire to go to worked armed. There isn’t a need. This is just an asinine thread with many asinine posts.
As for debate skills………….you wouldn’t know what real debate was if it hit you in the face. What you do is argue based on RW spin talking points. That is not debate.
I still don’t think some of you are seeing the actual issue here.
We are talking about ALLOWING teachers to carry a concealed weapon if they want to, not FORCING them to do so.
Their clothes? If they are choosing to carry concealed they will wear the appropriate clothes to do so.
Myself and many others I know all carry concealed and it is not that hard to accomodate.
You will never know that I am carrying concealed until I draw my weapon.
It would be the same thing for a teacher who decided to carry concealed.
Apophis,
You keep saying how you are opposed to this.
Why?
Chas,
Then what is the point of having a security guard or police officer in a school aremd then?
Those wacko students would just target them firts…
Your arguments are abusrd.
Ask yourselves this simple question:
If you were one of those students at VT would you:
-line up against the wall and wait to be shot like all the others?
-wish that one of those teachers had a gun to stop this guy?
-wish that you had a gun to stop this guy?
Which is it? Are you going to be a sheep and wait helplessly to be slaughtered by some crazy person or are you going to wish that someone, anyone would stop the man about to kill you?
“Rox………your earlier thread claimed it was a TEACHER.
Do you care to admit you are a liar now or shall I remind you of that fact forever?”
Posted by: Apophis | October 14, 2007 at 12:23 PM
Ah, the Left eating their own. :)
Now, if this were someone on the Right that said this – there would be a massive dogpile and it would be repeated daily for the next six months.
But hey! That’s how the Left does things. :)
CapnAmerica,
Since school shootings are so rare that you think carrying concealed doesn’t matter, then why do we bother with security or guards?
Why take any preventive measures at all.
If we do have guards or Police, they shouldn’t be armed either. Since a student could over power them and take their guns.
I’ll let you sell that one to the Police…
“As for debate skills………….you wouldn’t know what real debate was if it hit you in the face. What you do is argue based on RW spin talking points”
Just for fun, why don’t prove those points. If you don’t then by your own standards you are a liar.
Huh, it seems like this whole arguement is kinda moot. At least from the teacher in question anyway. She says
The whole point of carrying concealed is no one should know you’re carrying,” she said. “So I feel like my carrying concealed on campus now sets me up as a target.”
And what did I post upthread about teachers becoming targets if they carry?
It pays to read the whole linked story. Seems hubby had a conceal carry permit. He whipped out his piece during a parking disagreement!
This lady seems a little outta balance herself. Perhaps a new profession is in order.Goes to prove what I’ve always said. Many people who desperately want to carry a gun probably have no business doing so.
I would tend to agree with that JR.
Wht would I support this proposal Nathan?
I’m not a gun nut like you. I do not have a CC permit, nor do I will consider applying for one. There is no need for CC.
This isn’t the wild west.
JR,
What does “desperately” wanting to carry a gun have to do with allowing teachers who want to carry concealed the ability to do so?
Most people I know don’t carry concealed because the “desperately” wanted to.
Do you think anyone has any business carrying concealed at all?
Apophis,
I admit to an incorrect statement, as I wasn’t aware of all the details until I found the article. That was my sin. Mea culpa. Am I now damned to hell for my “lie”?=================================
Apophis answered:
Rox………truce accepted
Nuff said there
Apophis,
The very fact that you have to use some phrase like the wild west is what shows me you have no idea of what you are talking about.
Almost every state in this country allows concealed carry now and they have been doing so starting about 20 years ago.
We have yet to go to this so called “wild west.”
That is nothing more than the same old typical anti-gun nonsense.
The guards/security offices do NOT carry concealed… They have those guns at fingertip ready…
I think that is a HUGE difference than a teacher carrying a gun under a jacket, or strapped to a thigh, or somewhere else weird…
Most people I know who carry concealed all have their weapons readily available.
What is the point of carrying if it wasn’t readily available?
Your suggestion about carrying somewhere wierd is absurd.
If you are going to argue that students will try to overpower a teacher with a gun then you have to extend that argument to police or security with guns.
So, extend the argument then, if you insist… Why wouldnt a student shooter take out a guard as well?? Of course they would… Doesnt mean they would get the job done… The guard has his gun ready to go… doesnt have to wade through clothes to get to it…
IF the stupid school boards would simply insist on limiting entry to the buildings, AND install metal detectors, this entire argument would be unnecessary… It wouldnt be nearly as controversial either….
ah nathan……….are you stupid as well as ignorant?
If you bothered to read up thread, I stated that I actually own 3 firearms. I am not “anti-gun”, I just have never seen the need for CC. The fact that so many states allow CC shows how dangerous the NRA actually is.
I have yet to see data that shows that CC is beneficial.
Anyway, CC is not allowed in schools and as far as I can see it never will be. Go have your wet dream about something else.
Apophis,
I saw that you claim to actually own guns.
You wouldn’t happen to be lying about that? You seem to have a problem with backing up your claims today.
Another stupid proudman post.
Why would I say I own firearms if I do not actually own them?
You have made other claims today that you will not back up. By your own standards you are a liar until you can clear this up.
Back it up. You now have three separate claims from today. Else you are a liar.
Proudman, how do you expect the man to back up a claim that he owns firearms… Either he has them, or he doesnt… I have NONE… Would you want me to try to prove THAT??? Or would you want to call that a Lie as well???
Or maybe you want to know who does, and who doesnt, if you plan on breaking and entering???
proudman is just another angry conservative. he is just frustrated that his world is collapsing around him with bush’s mis-adminstration coming to an end.
That could be too, Apophis… very astute observation….
Well, Packers won; Viking won; I think Chiefs hung on; Now to see if Dallas can beat Patriots… Be back later… maybe!!
Reading though the comments I see mostly arguments on moral values and gun rights.Let’s talk more about laws on Bullying then gun right laws, which is the point that is missed that could be a better solution.Bullying seems to be the source of the irritations as to why one person resorts to violent behavior.Apophis, you are a teacher, how out of line is society when it comes to their understanding of the word and actions of Bully?To all of you WEbloggers, How many of you know what Bully is?Why leave out important understandings about protection and its usage?How smart are we when it comes to bullying and will the Eagle help educate the public?
Definition of the word Bully:
bul•ly 1 ( b‹l“) n. pl. bul•lies 1. A person who is habitually cruel or overbearing, especially to smaller or weaker people. 2. A hired ruffian; a thug. 3. A pimp. 4. Archaic A fine person. 5. Archaic A sweetheart. v. bul•lied bul•ly•ing bul•lies v. tr. 1. To treat in an overbearing or intimidating manner. See note at intimidate . 2. To make (one’s way) aggressively. v. intr. 1. To behave like a bully. 2. To force one’s way aggressively or by intimidation: “ They bully into line at the gas pump ” Martin Gottfried adj. 1. Excellent; splendid: did a bully job of persuading the members. interj. 1. Used to express approval: Bully for you! [Possibly from Middle Dutch boele sweetheart probably alteration of broeder brother; See bhr ³ter- in Indo-European Roots.]
bul•ly 2 ( b‹l“) n. 1. Canned or pickled beef. Also Called bully beef . [Perhaps French bouilli boiled meat, label on canned beef, from past participle of bouillir to boil from Old French boilir; See boil 1 ]
bhr ³ter-. Important derivatives are: brother fraternal pal Brother, male agnate. I. 1. a. BROTHER , from Old English br ½thor, brother; b. BULLY 1 , from Middle Dutch broeder , brother. Both a and b from Germanic *br ½thar-. 2. FRA , FRATERNAL , FRIAR ; CONFRERE , FRATRICIDE , from Latin fr ³ter, brother. 3. PHRATRY , from Greek phrat r, fellow member of a clan. 4. PAL , from Sanskrit bhr ³t³, bhr ³tar-, brother. [ Pokorny bhr ³ter- 163. ]
Thesaurus:
1. (n.) A person who is habitually cruel to weaker people:• hector• martinet• Simon Legree• oppressor• persecutor• sadist• slave driver• tartar• tormentor• torturer• tyrant2. (v.) To frighten with threats or a show of force:• cow• browbeat• intimidate• frighten• terrify• terrorize• scare• overawe• shake up• railroad• threaten3. (v.) To domineer or compel by pressure, threats, or force:• coerce• dragoon• force• hijack• pressurize (British)• terrorize• tyrannize• intimidate• blackmail• bludgeon• browbeat• bulldoze• bullyrag• extort• railroad4. (v.) To be persistently annoying or distressing to:• annoy• badger• bother• irk• plague• hound• hector• harry• harass• nag• pester• keep after• torment• distress• browbeat• bait• heckle• needle• ride• tease• rib5. (v.) To force to act or think in a given manner:• coerce• blackmail• browbeat• compel• constrain• dragoon• drive• high-pressure• impel• intimidate• make• oblige• press• pressure• railroad• shame• twist someone’s arm6. (adj.) Splendid; wonderful:• marvelous• extraordinary• awesome (informal)• brilliant• excellent• fabulous• fantastic• heavenly• mind-blowing (slang)• stupendous• super• superb• superlative• terrific• wondrous• ordinary (antonym)• average (antonym)• terrible (antonym)
Chas.
The little school god did this earlier to another poster, as you pointed out. He decided to personally insult me today so I’m calling on him to live up to his own standards.
Congrats Apophis, you are up to four claims today. Three about me personally.
Do you even know my name or are you just making this up like some kind of liar?
Insulted you? Oh, that’s too bad little man.
“Little school god”………………little, no, I am one big person, “school god”, never heard that one before.
Thanks anyway.
Face it, you’re just another angry Reichwinger who hates communtiy schools and would rather let the “market” take care of everything. But, this thread isn’t about schools, it’s about allowing CC in schools.
making what up?
it’s very obvious what your political philosophy is by your posts.
LIVE WITH IT!
Apophis has terminal Liberal crotch rot. It’s irritating, stinks and is often emitted in Liberal opinion statements.
Ignore the worm apophis, he is a disease of crusted, socialistic layered Leftist mindset which blames everything outside of his tiny, misguided realm of ideology on others.
This, coming from the worthless, repuglican troll:
“Apophis has terminal Liberal crotch rot. It’s irritating, stinks and is often emitted in Liberal opinion statements.
Ignore the worm apophis, he is a disease of crusted, socialistic layered Leftist mindset which blames everything outside of his tiny, misguided realm of ideology on others.
Posted by: Kansas | October 14, 2007 at 04:21 PM”
Apophis,
Let me write down the four claims you need to prove:
1. You own three firearms.2. I wouldn’t know a real debate if it hit me in the face.3. All I do is argue based on RW spin talking points.4. I’m an angry conservative frustrated that the world is ending when Bush leaves office.
Prove your claims or admit to being a liar. It’s your standard.
Live up to it.
War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Bliss
1. You own three firearms.==================== – Proudman -
I already told you once that this cannot be proven on the Blog… Give it up!!
The others are quite obvious…
and how exactly do you porpose that anyone prove anything like that.
are you just frustrated because aa progressive ahs got the better of you?
HURRY, proudman……….the liquor stores are open a few more hours!
He’s about to blow Chas.!
Are you ignoring my questions in my comment?Are any of you bullies?
Do any of you really know what ills our society?
I like government. As a liberal, I am for government. I am for public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, National Health Care, SCHIP, public transportation, public highways and Social Security. But even I recognize that government has limits. The Wichita Police Department is a fine and well ran department. The police do the best they can but even they could not protect all those people from Dennis Rader. But if Nancy Fox had owned a gun, she and lots of other folks would still be breathing today and Dennis Rader would be in the ground somewhere hopefully. The police could not save Nancy Fox, the Otero family, the Carr victims or any of the other people that are killed and maimed in Wichita each year. All they can do is deal with the aftermath. If you wish to live, only a gun will give you even a small chance.
I’m sorry wiseman, what does your long copy/paste have to do with CC in schools?
Well, Wiseman, it isnt the gun debate; and it isnt Repub Vs. Dem.
It is something much more deep seated… It has begun as of late to resemble a form of “old” tribalism…. I have written three treatises on that subject, none of which are available to me at fingertip access… And they are a little long for the Blog…
kev, you really have no way of knowing whether the BTK victims would have been spared if they had guns. It’s nice to speculate, but that’s all it is…….speculation.
However, I would suggest we keep this thread to its original intent, Wiseman…
“”"Let’s talk more about laws on Bullying then gun right laws, which is the point that is missed that could be a better solution.Bullying seems to be the source of the irritations as to why one person resorts to violent behavior.”"”
We had a bully in my daugher’s high school here. He picked on the wrong kid and got an ice pick in his gut. It really didn’t bother me. He got what he deserved.
Apophis,
You might own 3 guns, but all your arguments are text book anti gun stuff.
Owning 3 guns doesn’t mean you are pro-gun or support the 2nd Amendment rights of individuals any more than a racist saying he has 3 black friends makes him less of a racist…
Either way, it doesn’t further your arguments against allowing concealed carry in school.
By the way, what was your argument again? I am still waiting for you to make one.
All these arguments against concealed carry in the school are the same stupid arguments against concealed carry in our state at all.
Here we are, a year later with concealed carry in our state and it isn’t the wild west, concealed carry license holders are not out shooting themselves or others…
All those fantasies the anti-gun crowd were spewing have not come true in this state or any other state which allows concealed carry.
Yet here they are, still making the same old arguments….
If you and were in school and I tease you, make fun of you, cause you to be out of place in society.For some people the recourse of action is thru violence.
Don’t you think that bullying is where it all starts?
Oh, now I get it………….you have to be a card-carrying NRA member to own a gun.
You are just showing what kind of fanatic you are nathan. I haven’t made any claims other than we don’t need CC. This isn’t the wild west anymore.
So you make statements you can’t possibly prove.
Looks like your credibility is shot.
Clothing doesn’t stop me from drawing my weapon either.
Every person I have met who carries concealed can easily get their gun out if they needed to.
This argument about the clothing getting in the way is made by someone who doesn’t have the slightest clue of what he is talking about.
Now wiseman, that does make some sense.
I still don’t see it as a reason to allow CC in schools.
What was your argument Apophis?
proudman
I never have and never will worry about my credibility to reichwingers. What would be the point?
proudman
I never have and never will worry about my credibility to reichwingers. What would be the point?
Posted by: Apophis | October 14, 2007 at 04:41 PM
The mindset of the party with no substance.
When in doubt use the standard array of colorful metaphors and bail out so you don’t have to explain your position.
Kansas,
Apophis has yet to make an argument for his stance.
All he keeps saying over and over again is that he doesn’t agree with CC in school.
Trollboy/kansas
Let me put it terms you understand.
f*** y**
It doesn’t matter what my view is…………………the fact of the matter is that is illegal to Conceal and Carry a firearm into schools.
It’s the law…………..do you advocate breaking a law?
As I said, the party of no substance.
Apophis has repeatedly demonstrated this.
Apophis,
I advocate allowing teachers to carry concealed if they want to in school.
I also advocate anyone with a CC permit the ability to carry concealed into school.
This discussion is about changing the law, not breaking it.
an accusation from the troll about substance……………now THAT is funny.
You reichwingers have no substance, just anger and hostility.
And what is your rationale for changing the law?
You have none.
Apophis,
You want the point? Here it is:
You cannot debate at a high level. Most of your statements were opinions. That’s all you had to write for explanation. Anyone experienced with ‘real debate’ would have done that.
Isn’t that about 99% of what is posted on a blog, opinions?
The other 1% is regurgitation of someone elses talking points.
You’re just another angry conservative.
I honeltly feel a little sorry for Nathan and other folks so needy for a gun. YOu all must walk around scared half to death all the time. I really worry about you all more than I fear any sudden attack.
Oh and whoever said a gun would have helped Nancy Fox?
Rader broke into her house and ambushed her when she came in the door. A gun would have done her no good. There was only one case where a gun might have stopped Rader.
Apophis,
Most of what is said here is opinion. You only know that because I told you.
I’m done with you proudman, you’re a conservative in denial (a libertarian).
The Democraps just want to be sheeple on the issue. Their party leaders have told them what to think, so they can’t formulate a position on their own.
It appears that Senator Jim Webb (D) who packs a C/C has much different opinions than the sheeple here in Wichita.
Perhaps if apophis was a 90 pound female teacher, he might change his opinion.
As it is now, for those who mean him harm and he has no means of protection other than being a flesh target.
JR,
Feel sorry for me?
I guess when you can’t debate the topic you resort to going after the poster.
It is a steady theme with you JR.
I do see a lack of understanding by society as a whole on how bullying is obstinately avoided of law and enforcement.CC in schools should be avoided; the emphasis should be on bullying.
JR
“YOu all must walk around scared half to death all the time.”
No, prepared. Not scared.
For those of you who advocate CC for teachers, at what levels should this be done?
High schools? Middle schools? Grade schools? And if only high schools, what about a school with K-12?
“As it is now, for those who mean him harm and he has no means of protection other than being a flesh target.
Posted by: Kansas | October 14, 2007 at 05:02 PM”
You make it sound like there are roving bands of gunmen in schools.
What idiotic comment trollboy, even for you.
Apophis,
I think the law should be changed because the only people who are carrying guns into schools beside police are kids bent on killing as many people as they can.
If a teacher wants to be able to defend himself, he should have the ability to do so if he chooses.
If you were in the classroom where the VT shootings were going on would you line up against the wall and die or would you rather one of those teachers, a student, or even yourself had a gun to stop the shooter?
Another stupid “what if” nathan.
does thinking about shooting someone give you an erection nathan?
Rox,
It has nothing to do with levels.
It is allowing teachers the choice to carry concealed in school if they want to.
It doesn’t matter what grade.
Apophis,
When you can’t debate the topic go after the poster hey?
That is two posters down…
Who else wants to show their inability to debate?
I didn’t attack you Nathan.
I said you must be sorta nervous all the time. Hence the desire for a gun within easy reach.I’m glad I’m not nervous like that.
Debate? I already made my points to that. Hey I’m the only one (as far as I know) with a kid in school. I see no need for armed teachers. Any small margin of safety they might provide is at best equal to the negatives.
Nathan,
So you’re saying all schools?
Nathan, you are military, if you were there with no gun, what would you do?
You make it sound like there are roving bands of gunmen in schools.
What idiotic comment trollboy, even for you.
Posted by: Apophis | October 14, 2007 at 05:05 PM
Ask the parents at Columbine or Virginia Tech about what could have been done to protect their children.
There are always ways to sneak illegally carried guns into school. There mostly likely have been guns brought into Wichita schools and no one was the wiser.==================High schools? Middle schools? Grade schools? And if only high schools, what about a school with K-12?
Posted by: Rox | October 14, 2007 at 05:05 PM
All of them Rox. The idea is not to protect the teacher from the students, but from the rogue gun man which may be a student or some drug induced crazy man threatening the children.
Having a few teachers properly trained to carry a concealed weapon would prevent a lot of carnage.
Apophis,
If you want to have an actual debate you need to start concentrating on the subject of the debate. Calling people ‘frustrated’ or asking silly of topic questions (do you get an erection when. . .) only makes you appear to be inept and intellectually undeveloped.
JR,
You are making statements about my state of mind in a deragatory way.
Either way, you choose to go after me instead of the topic.
If that is the best you can do, then why bother?
Why bother pretending like you are any better than Kansas? Why bother pretending like you are somehow better than being the typical troll you accuse others of being?
In the threads where you and I talk you always choose to say something about me.
Rox,
I think ANYONE with a concealed carry license should be able to go into ANY school carrying concealed.
In this particular thread I am saying that ANY teacher who gets a concealed carry license should be able to carry into ANY school if they want to.
Wiseman has the right idea.
Address the bullying and social ails that drive these mixed up kids to do what they do.
JR is no better then anyone else, in fact he’s worse then most.
His attack percentage on posts is well over 50%
Wiseman,
I would do everything in my power to stop the shooter.
I wouldn’t line up against the wall and die like the rest of the sheep did.
Apophis,
If you want to have an actual debate you need to start concentrating on the subject of the debate. Calling people ‘frustrated’ or asking silly of topic questions (do you get an erection when. . .) only makes you appear to be inept and intellectually undeveloped.
Posted by: ProudMan | October 14, 2007 at 05:11 PM
walking on by…………..
Address the bullying and social ails that drive these mixed up kids to do what they do.
Posted by: J R | October 14, 2007 at 05:13 PM
Yeah J R, negotiate with those kids or the ex-husband who has brought a gun or guns to school and intends on killing some people.
Be my guest, go right up to them and “talk” to them about their deep psychological problems.
That’s actually a good point that Nathan raises–although it wasn’t the point he intended.
All the school shootings I’ve heard of DID have armed security guards present.
Cleveland did. Columbine did.
So what good did THEY do?
The simple fact is that it’s not like speeding in your car. Everybody would speed if only the cops weren’t lurking around.
Very few people are going to go on a shooting spree. And the ones who are will not be dissuaded by other people having guns.
Cleveland and Columbine proved that.
The right-wingers love authoritarianism so much, they think that some tough guy with a gun is all it takes to keep order.
Unfortunately, what keeps order is an orderly society.
You know, like “socialistic” Japan and Western Europe . . .
I say, let the teachers carry guns. Won’t make a damn bit of difference, but at least they won’t have that red herring to throw out any more . . .
I believe it was you first addressed me Nathan.
I made my case when you were not about.
Little point to debate it. Schools are no gun zones. This is not going to change. Just as it shouldn’t.
I, the same.A school desk makes a hell of a club, doesn’t?
“Having a few teachers properly trained to carry a concealed weapon would prevent a lot of carnage.”
It doesn’t appear that having a few security guards in schools made a difference, but you believe a few teachers added to it would? In a large school, they would have to be stragically placed and hope they could get where they needed to be in time. I can’t see that it would change anything, unless…
Maybe what you’re hoping is that all teachers will be required to carry? What’s the next step after that? The student council?
Wiseman is correct. Get to this at the root. Teach children not to bully. If they do it anyway, stop it, before it gets out of hand and the person being bullied and filled with rage feels that he must take matters into his own hands.
Last post this thread.
Probably.
Hey Max? You’re funny!
Your only post on this whole thread is an attack on me!
JR is pointing out rightly that school shootings show a systematic problem.
These kids are not bad apples, they are the natural response of our society.
The only way to fix the problem is to fix the system that creates the problem.
But that’s way too complicated for the authoritarians. They want somebody to shoot their problems away, like in a Hollywood western . . .
I, the same.A school desk makes a hell of a club, doesn’t?
Posted by: Wiseman | October 14, 2007 at 05:18 PM
The velocity, trajectory and impact of a “thrown” desk is unreliable.
Why else do you think they nickname handguns “equalizers.” :)
The only way to fix the problem is to fix the system that creates the problem.
But that’s way too complicated for the authoritarians. They want somebody to shoot their problems away, like in a Hollywood western . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | October 14, 2007 at 05:20 PM
The Libs and their UNIONS control the Public Schools now and have had control for many decades.
How is all those “seminars”, counseling sessions and attitude “talks” working out for ya?
What it has done is the Lib controlled schools have left a trail of dead bodies, because they want to “talk” about it instead of doing something about it.
“I was / was not injured in the line of duty” Kansas is asking ME questions?
Answer mine first.
Until then–
WALK
ON
BY
Action speaks louder then words, right Kansas?
I’m about done on this thread myself. It was asinine when it started and has become more so as the day has gone along.
Now, the trollboy blames it on the unions………….give me a break!
Yeah, hehehe, it was those damn unions! at the Amish school . . .
Yeah Capn, I was injured in the line of duty is very obvious. They don’t give disability retirement who aren’t injured in the line of duty.
There have been several cases where people on active duty where injured in car accidents while off duty. These people received medical care and may have gotten VA medical care after their discharge, but are ineligible to receive medical retirement from active duty.
But you knew that Capn, you just wanted to play the ignorant attack jerk that you usually are.
How else would I have a military ID card that says permanent on it?
Capn tries so hard and fails so often.
The Amish do have guns, as they use it for both protection and hunting.
But we are talking about C/C in public schools now aren’t we? :)
At least that is what the topic thread that was posted by Rhonda Holman states.
So Libs, please do and try to stay focused.
My argument has very little to do with teachers being armed making a difference.
I believe it does.
My argument is about allowing a teacher who wants to the ability to defend themselves if they choose to.
It may not stop a school shooting, but it adds that much more protection.
I am all for changing or addressing the root cause of what drives these people to shoot others as well.
However, when you are lined up against the wall like the VT students, wishing that society had addressed the shooters ills isn’t going to change the fact that you are going to die.
Why are you so opposed to allowing people the ability to defend themselves?
Why a *concealed* gun?
What are you ashamed of?
“Wiseman has the right idea.
Address the bullying and social ails that drive these mixed up kids to do what they do.”
Posted by: J R | October 14, 2007 at 05:13 PM
Bulls-eye! (excuse the metaphor)
Identify and remove the factors that cause the violence.
Treat the problems, not the later symptoms.
Also be more alert, and proactive to warning signs.
If you don’t, then at best, with CC’d teachers, you still have situations with students who resort to violence being killed.
Or more likely, multiple injured and dead students, and teachers.
Okay, sorry to break the “walk on by” ban for the LYING BASTARD RepubliPUKE Kansas,
but some lies cannot be allowed to stand.
The Amish most certainly DO NOT USE GUNS “for protection.”
The central tenant of their faith is non-resistance. That’s why they were hounded out of Europe and why the Mennonites were hounded out of Russia.
What a liar you are, Kansas.
[Shakes head in disgust]
And the fact that you reich-wingers don’t attack him for his lies says a lot about the rest of you too . . .
Some advertise at every opportunity that they carry. Ya know, since it’s concealed they have to talk about it a lot. They also seem to hope that keeps people afraid and such. The whole preoccupation seems very silly to me.
MonkeyHawk,
I’m not ashamed of anything.
There is good reason for concealed carry, one being that you have the element of surprise on a bad guy.
If someone plans on doing something bad and they can clearly see you have a gun, then you obviously become a problem for him.
If you want to pass a law allowing me to openly carry, I will support it.
Pancho was a bandit, boysRode a horse fast as polished steelWore his guns outside his pantsFor all the honest world to fear.
“I was / was not injured in the line of duty” Kansas is desperately googling “Amish and guns” to see if he can find any shred of evidence for his wholly erroneous statement.
He can’t, heigh ho.
What a troll . . .
But don’t worry.
The last thing “I was / was not injured in the line of duty” Kansas would do is admit he lied.
Pathetic.
Hey Monkeyhawk,
Why concealed? Several reasons. If the bad guys know where the guns are it’s easier to neutralize them.
since we’re talking about teachers let’s imagine that a student has been going to a school where several teachers carry sidearms out in the open. If you wanted to take out a classroom merely shoot the teacher first. You know he’s armed, he doesn’t know the killer is. Advantage killer.
If teachers and students at VY were allowed to carry concealed the massacre probably wouldn’t have even begun. If it did start there’s a good chance it wouldn’t have been as bad.
Why do I carry concealed? It’s the law. I seldom do. I got my license so that it’s legal for me to carry my gun loaded in my truck.
Carrying concealed has nothing to do with being ashamed of anything, it’s stupid to believe so.
Hank
He could have made a mistake or spoke too soon.
Why not wait and hear him out?
All the federalies sayCould’ve caught him any dayOnly let him slip awayOut of kindness I suppose
Startin’ to like you more and more, Captain.
Hey boy,
Speaking of guns. . .
Hey boy,
Speaking of guns. . .
LOL
Um let me get back to you on that one.
Amish have firearms for protection against predators like coyotes, etc.
Capn’s assumption thought it meant protection from people, but he usual, assumed wrong.
So Libs, are you going to let the Capn to continue his rant of “”I was / was not injured in the line of duty” Kansas?”
So much tripe about Libs accuse me of trolling and making remarks when the Capn and J R and others are even worse.
Kansas, WHERE are your Congress and the Justice Dept sources re the Sierra Club and levee failures???
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/dont_count_on_f.html#comment-70787152
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_28.html#comment-71041282
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/06/sicko-offers-gl.html#comment-74527572
And thank you for posting the levee lie again above.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-926.html#comment-84210900
It proves that you ignore facts, and have ZERO credibility.
Kansas, WHERE are your Congress and the Justice Dept sources re the Sierra Club and levee failures???
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/dont_count_on_f.html#comment-70787152
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_28.html#comment-71041282
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/06/sicko-offers-gl.html#comment-74527572
And thank you for posting the levee lie again above.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-926.html#comment-84210900
It proves that you ignore facts, and have ZERO credibility.
Your problem cosmos is with the professional Scientists of the Black Environmental Group of Louisiana and you know this is where I got that statement.
So cosmos, why are you such a racist stating that the Black Environmental Group of Louisiana don’t know what they are talking about when they blame the Sierra Club for shutting down funding for the Mississippi River Basin projects. There were over 100 projects including the Levees in New Orleans shut down by the Sierra Club’s lawsuit because they had to continue to do Environmental Impact studies and could not proceed with their projects.
Tell you what cosmos, I’m going to repeat the following statement every time you post.
cosmos is a racist because he callls the expert and scientific analysis of the Black Environmental Group of Louisiana liars, experts on the Mississippi River Basin including the Levee projects.
Nathan Said:
“Apophis,
You might own 3 guns, but all your arguments are text book anti gun stuff.”
THEN — Nathan gets confused…
He then says:
“By the way, what was your argument again? I am still waiting for you to make one.”
If Nathan says Apophis has no arguments, then how can all of his arguments be anti-gun stuff??
I think this thread has become most frayed!! Bye all for now!!
“Amish have firearms for protection against predators like coyotes, etc.”
*****
Yeah, those deadly, deadly coyotes.
All the Amish live in constant fear of coyotes . . .
“Look in the Congressional Record cosmos, not the Sierra Club. And look at Justice Department reports.”
Posted by: Republican | May 26, 2007 at 12:34 PM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/dont_count_on_f.html#comment-70787370
Amish people do NOT use guns to shoot people… perhaps for hunting… but not for use against humans… That is most opposed to their very pacifistic way of life… They NEVER serve in the military, for just that reason… They would never have permitted weapons in their little school house anyway… They basically said so when that tragedy happened…
He’s melting down, folks!
Check the wild, arm-waving spam posts.
Woo-hoo, “I was / was not injured in combat” Kansas is losing it again!
Yours is a spam too as well Capn, you interject your spam as off topic in threads as spam.
If you report it, I will report your spam. So go for it weenie. I would love to take you and cosmos down with me.
Yeah, “I was / was not injured in combat” Kansas “explained” that, Chas.
He said the Amish use guns for protection against . . . uh . . . coyotes.
Okay, right, you betcha.
Cool. “60 Minutes” is investigating Blackwater murderers.
Gotta record this . . .
Hehehe, so walking on by . . .
Walking
On
By
!!!
Capn gets so weary of being proven wrong, so he resorts to personal attacks and
NO ONE
ON THE LEFT takes him on for doing it.
Show some balls Lefties, take the CAPN to task and put him in his place. Report his constant spam and ad hominem remark or forever be known as hypocrites.
“Nathan” enlightened us with:
“There is good reason for concealed carry, one being that you have the element of surprise on a bad guy.”
How ’bout this, “Nathan?”
If the “bad guy” sees you’re packing heat on your hip, you won’t need to “suprise” him.
What’s your goal, here, “Nathan?” Do you want to prevent crime or would you just as soon shoot people?
Later, “Hank Price” chimed in with:
“…If the bad guys know where the guns are it’s easier to neutralize them.” Which, of course, runs counter for the concealed-carry mantra that if the bad guy suspects *someone* might be packing a concealed weapon he won’t commit the crime.
Tell ya what. If everybody carrying handguns is the panacea to preventing crimes, then carrying them openly is far more likely to work than expecting criminals to worry about a concealed gun somewhere.
A couple of years ago I was stopped by a cop (actually, he followed me into the parking lot of an auto parts store) because one of my brake lights was burnt out. The cop asked for my license and registration and aske if I had drugs or guns in my car.
“No,” of course.
He said he needed to write me a ticket for the burnt-out brake lot and I explained that was why I was going to the auto parts store. He said, if that’s true, he’d help me replace the light.
Long story short, I got the bulb and we replaced the brake light and he signed the ticket he’d written. I asked about why he bothered with a ticket; was there a quota or something. He smiled and said, “No, it isn’t a ‘quota,’ it’s called ‘enforcement by objective.’ Same thing.”
Anyway, as we were replacing the brake light I asked him what he would have done if I’d told him there was a gun in my car. “I would have ‘cuffed you and put you on the street until I secured the weapon.” “But,” I asked,” what if I told you I had a concealed-carry permit?” He said, “I would have ‘cuffed you and put you on the street until I secured the weapon and determined you were, in fact, permitted to carry a concealed weapon.”
I probably asked too many questions because my friendly helpful cop asked if he could inspect my car to see if there was a weapon. “And if I say no?” I asked. “Then I’ll ‘cuff you and put you on the street until I’m convinced there’s no weapon in the car.”
Fine. He found no weapon, no drugs… just like every other day in my life. And we parted as friends.
What I took away from that encounter was that law enforcement officers are terrified of people inclined to carry handguns.
Cops, unlike criminals, tend to be logical thinkers. They belong to a profession where they’re highly more likely to get shot at than most people. Whenever they see a gun in the hands of a civilian, they tend to get nervous. It’s only logical. And it’s not how criminals think.
How ’bout this, “Nathan?”
If the “bad guy” sees you’re packing heat on your hip, you won’t need to “suprise” him. Posted by: MonkeyHawk | October 14, 2007 at 06:58 PM
Illogical argument, you have to be CLEET certified and hired as described by law as a law enforcement or security officer with the prescribed training. You just don’t strap a weapon to your hip and carry it out in public.
See ‘3.7 U.S. Army Corps of Engineers Admits Fault’http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_levee_failures_in_Greater_New_Orleans
The statistics don’t lie. I have cited two different sources with a very enlightening visual of the widening of the concealed carry by states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rtc.gif
In 1987, when Florida enacted such legislation, critics warned that the “Sunshine State” would become the “Gunshine State.” Contrary to their predictions, homicide rates dropped faster than the national average. Further, through 1997, only one permit holder out of the over 350,000 permits issued, was convicted of homicide. (Source: Kleck, Gary Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, p 370. Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997.) If the rest of the country behaved as Florida’s permit holders did, the U.S. would have the lowest homicide rate in the world.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgcon.html
John Lott and David Mustard, in connection with the University of Chicago Law School, examining crime statistics from 1977 to 1992 for all U.S. counties, concluded that the thirty-one states allowing their residents to carry concealed, had significant reductions in violent crime. Lott writes, “Our most conservative estimates show that by adopting shall-issue laws, states reduced murders by 8.5%, rapes by 5%, aggravated assaults by 7% and robbery by 3%. If those states that did not permit concealed handguns in 1992 had permitted them back then, citizens might have been spared approximately 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes, 60,000 aggravated assaults and 12,000 robberies. To put it even more simply criminals, we found, respond rationally to deterrence threats… While support for strict gun-control laws usually has been strongest in large cities, where crime rates are highest, that’s precisely where right-to-carry laws have produced the largest drops in violent crimes.”
We are indeed safer with someone that is licensed to carry than with just the rogues on the street armed.
Hope if I run into problems Nathan or Hank are close because I don’t carry.
When we disarm good citizens only the criminals will be armed.
All that said with the right training teachers should be able to carry.
Now, the trollboy blames it on the unions………….give me a break!
Posted by: Apophis | October 14, 2007 at 05:26 PM
========================
Obviously, the Amish School in PA was NOT a public school… It was a private school run by the Amish, for Amish children…
There is no way they would have allowed weapons inside that building — even for “protection” It would be totally against one of their most tresured religious beliefs… And once again, they NEVER shoot at people!!
And once again, they NEVER shoot at people!!
Posted by: Chas. | October 14, 2007 at 07:13 PM
I never said they did or would Chas.
I was countering Capn’s ridiculous argument for bringing the Amish school attack into a thread on the right for Public School teachers to conceal and carry.
Again Chas, take out the Capn for his foolish ad hominem remarks or be forever be known as a hypocrite.
Should adults in position to come to the aid of defensless school children be authorized to stop the killing? Isn’t this the true question being asked? Only the mentally disordered could possibly answer NO!
cosmos calls me a liar for a report I post here by the Black Environmental Group of Louisiana. I’m not the one who wrote the report, I just posted it.
Since then, cosmos has called me a liar which has been months ago. I figured that cosmos must be a very bigoted racist for calling the people who made that report who happen to be Black liars. They are scientists, cosmos is not.
The only motivation and reason for him to call them liars is that cosmos is a racist since he has no scientific training.
Notice how cosmos comes and posts off topic in threads to attack me.
He is not only a racist but he is a stalker as well.
Why don’t the Libs take him on for it?
Kansas, YOU said the Amish use guns for protection… NOT CapN
Kansas — These are YOUR words, before you tried to spin your own post….
“The Amish do have guns, as they use it for both protection and hunting.” Kansas — 5:33 p.m.
Now I am done with this thread… it is degenerating once again…
Kansas, YOU said the Amish use guns for protection… NOT CapN
Posted by: Chas. | October 14, 2007 at 07:34 PM
Yes Chas protection from varmits (animals) and for hunting. I never said protection from humans.
I guess I should have spelled it out for the non-thinkers.
Now I am done with this thread… it is degenerating once again…
Posted by: Chas. | October 14, 2007 at 07:38 PM
So Chas approves of the Capn’s trolling and ad hominem remarks as he hasn’t said anything against it.
Chas approves of cosmos’s racist remarks about the Black Environmental Group of Louisiana as he says nothing against it.
Chas is a hypocrite.
Nice thread debating concealed carry for teachers today.
2 notable commentors actually had rational arguments, even supporting documentations:
KSgrm, and Nathan.
99% of the rest of this thread today is garbage.
Anti-gunners who do not understand the deterrent effect of concealed carry, and who refuse to study the issue, will continue on with their irrational emotional rants – hoping that guns will somehow go away.
And if you or one of your family members is ever in a position where they need to defend their life from an attacker, they will still have hope. But that is all.
The rest of us, may assume some responsibility for our own defense.
MonkeyHawk,
Nice anecdotal story.
I have several friends in law enforcement and I have even taken several firearms classes from someone in law enforcement.
None of them are afraid of law abiding citizens having guns.
In fact, all the Law Enforcement people I know welcome concealed carry.
I also know several people who have been stopped with concealed carry. They simple show the officer thier permit and that is it.
They were not hand cuffed.
So what is your point?
What does any of that have to do with allowing teachers to carry concealed?
Max,
And still no one will answer my questions.
Here is one of them again:
Why don’t you want teachers to have the ability to defend themselves if they want to?
marine-boy…………..what makes you think the teachers WANT to have CC in their schools?
the NRA doesn’t make decisions for teachers.
Apophis,
There are several cases of teachers wanting to carry concealed in school.
Isn’t this very thread based upon a teacher wanting to carry concealed?
Nathan, they simply don’t understand the issue, and they refuse to research the issue to gain a better understanding.
They are the same people who think Cops are like magical fairies who will arrive instantly whenever we need them.
I feel safer at the gun club, then I do out in public. At the gun club, just about everybody is armed with one or more guns, most carrying concealed as well.
I have converted a few anti-gunners, but it does take time.
Most on this blog Nathan, are not capable of understanding the issue, and they are not on this blog to learn or debate anything anyway.
You gave it a good shot today though.
ah marine-boy……..that is 1 teacher in OREGON and if could actually read it stems from some dispute with her ex-husband specifically.
Do you know many teachers in Kansas who are demanding CC, or this just another gunnutia wet dream?
“they simply don’t understand the issue, and they refuse to research the issue to gain a better understanding.”
What is there to understand?
Your paranoia is shining brightly!
Apophis,
What is your point?
Apophis,
Why are you so paranoid about letting teachers carry concealed if they want to?
Teachers can carry concealed weapons if they want…………just not at school.
If you haven’t figured it out yet, that would be AGAINST THE LAW.
Besides, you have given NO VALID REASON to change the law.
If Phil Journey tries to push this one through, his political career is all but over.
If Phil Journey tries to push this one through, his political career is all but over.
Posted by: Apophis | October 14, 2007 at 08:20 PM
Dems are in the minority in Kansas.
Apophis,
The whole point of the thread is about changing the law.
Yet you keep stating the obvious, that is is currently against the law.
Lets move on.
I think we can all agree that it is currently against the law to carry concealed into a school.
You may think that I have not given a valid reason to change the law, yet you have not actually tried to discuss the reasons I have given.
The OR teacher is not alone:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650213106,00.html
You have given no reasons, just NRA talking points.
The more you post, the more obvious it is that you are a very unstable person.
Unstable people should not be allowed to CC. Does your almighty NRA have a position on unstable, like you, carrying firearms?
I know if teachers carried guns at the schools, there would be even more school shootings. I know every teacher feels like shooting one of their students at least once a week.
Apophis,
It is obvious that you have no intention of actually discussing the issue.
All you do is resort to attacking me and saying the same thing over and over again.
When you are ready to have a real discussion let me know.
you conveniently forget to mention this part:
“”Any use of such weapons is outside the scope of employment, is contrary to the purposes of employment by the District and is done solely in the employee’s personal capacity, not as an employee of the District,” the policy states.The Utah Education Association, the state’s largest teachers union, opposes the idea of arming school employees.”
Bring in something relevant, like in KANSAS>
How do you know that WhiteElephant?
The Utah Solution:
Like many states, Utah enacted a concealed-handgun licensing law in 1995. Unlike most states, Utah did not make schools an exclusion zone for lawful carrying. Not only a teacher on duty, but also a parent coming to pick up a child from school, can lawfully carry a concealed handgun in a Utah school building — after, of course, passing a background check and safety training. (See Utah Code sect. 76-10-505.5. In 2003, the legislature expanded the law, by allowing principals to authorize firearms possession by individuals who did not have a concealed-handgun carry permit.)
After eleven years of experience in Utah, we now have exactly zero reported problems of concealed handgun licensees misusing guns at school, or students stealing guns from teachers, or teachers using their licensed firearms to shoot or threaten students. During this same period, we also have had exactly zero mass murders in Utah schools.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTNmZDZhYzg4NTMwODFlMzFmOThjNjhkODMzYzYzMWI=
marine-boy
YOU are incapable of any rational discussion on this matter. Typical of your type, you want to project your fringe views on the public.
I know if teachers carried guns at the schools, there would be even more school shootings. I know every teacher feels like shooting one of their students at least once a week.
Posted by: WhiteElephant | October 14, 2007 at 08:29 PM
That only applies to racists like apophis who believes the failure of the Public Schools are the underclass and the minorities.
You people are pathetic.
I’m done with this asinine nonsense for the night.
Apophis,
My views are either logical and reasonable or not.
The fact that people at this time may or may not agree with them doesnt have any weight on what I say being valid, reasonable, or logical.
It is called the Argumentum ad populum fallacy.
Can’t resist this one:
“That only applies to racists like apophis who believes the failure of the Public Schools are the underclass and the minorities.
Posted by: Kansas | October 14, 2007 at 08:33 PM”
When did I ever state that troll-boy?
This is another classic example of the mental instabilty of the reichwing “mind” (I use that term very reluctantly).
12 years of experience with teachers who carry concealed in school IS RELEVENT.
Zero school shootings in Utah since concealed carry in school has been allowed.
I couldn’t care less that the NEA hasn’t endorsed this practice. Many teachers have chosen to do the right thing, and ignore the NEA opinion.
How many school shootings has the NEA stopped?
Apophis,
What is a reichwing mind exactly?
I think anything labeled as such would be unstable :/
Max,
Good statistics.
Of course the anti-gun crowd doesn’t care.
In every state since Florida 20 years ago, they have had the same blood in the streets “wild west” arguments against concealed carry.
Even in Kansas over a year ago it was the same old arguments.
Here we are, 20 years later and almost every state in the country has concealed carry and they are still making the same refuted and disproven arguments.
And when I pick up my daughter from school, driving through the parking lot, am I breaking the 300 ft no-gun zone rule?
Who knows?
I’m sure that No-Gun Sign works most of the time.
Max,
No you are not. According to the KSAG you may carry concealed in your vehicle while in the “no gun zone” at school.
You may also carry concealed on school property, just not into any buildings.
WOW, it has been one big NRA circle jerk on this thread today.
My question is: Do you pro-conceal/carry guys pack heat as a way to compensate for sexual inadequecies? I’ve always heard men with small ****** and the occasionally ED are always looking for a way to bolster their self esteems.
Try some Viagra instead.
Heartbreaker, hate to break your warped heart, but your sexual fetish has nothing to do with the gun issue.
Apophis,
Again, debate is not your strong point.
All you have found is classic CYA. The district does not endorse the use of the firearm. Most importantly, the district also does not prohibit the presence of the firearm.
Sorry max, it is obvious that it is you, Nathan and a few others who have some kind of sexual hangup.
They do have treatment for that ailment now.
NE Heartbreaker is one of the Blog’s Libs trolling with a new nick.
Too cowardly to post under their regular nick.
Notice how he called out people only a regular would know.
WalkOnBy!!
Good night; good luck; God bless, whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
Here’s more from the great state of Utah that you conveniently left out. Be sure to read the part about the Police Chief Association NOT supporting CC in schools. Also, read tyhe part about the general public overwhelming do NOT want guns in their schools.
Guns don’t belong in schoolDeseret News (Salt Lake City), Dec 10, 2006 by Deseret Morning News editorialIn law enforcement agencies, only the very best marksmen are assigned to SWAT teams. The reason is, when police encounter crisis situations they need to minimize risk to innocent bystanders. They need to hit their intended targets. So they train constantly to improve the outcomes when the unthinkable occurs.
In Utah, some schoolteachers who have concealed weapons permits carry handguns to school. Some teachers say they carry concealed weapons because they want to be able to defend themselves and others should an intruder threaten school staff or students. A proposal before the Utah Peace Officer Standards and Training Council would permit teachers with the appropriate gun training to become “special function officers,” which would be akin to a school district security officer, a hospital security officer or a port of entry agent. The POST council has taken no action on the proposal.
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The Utah Chiefs of Police Association opposes the proposal, noting that security of schools should be the purview of professional police peace officers. Another well-placed concern is, how are officers who respond to an armed confrontation at a school to discern who is the bad guy when there are multiple people wielding weapons?
Neither school districts nor the state’s largest teacher union, the Utah Education Association, has embraced the idea of arming teachers. Some school boards have passed carefully worded policies that clarify that any employees who use weapons outside the scope of their employment do so at their own volition.
AdvertisementAbsent some change in Utah’s gun laws, people will continue to be permitted to carry concealed weapons into schools and other venues. When Deseret Morning News pollsters have surveyed Utahns on this question, a majority have opposed anyone carrying concealed weapons into schools. Unfortunately, lawmakers have all but ignored the public’s will on this issue.
The Deseret Morning News editorial board has long held that guns do not belong in schools, period. The position of the Utah Chiefs of Police Association on this issue deepens our resolve.
Considering that some state lawmakers are in lock-step with the gun rights lobby, the Utah Legislature is unlikely to alter Utah’s laws. In that context, it makes sense that teachers who elect to carry concealed weapons into schools undergo training above and beyond what is required by the state’s concealed weapons permit laws. Odds are, if they are placed in a position where they feel they must fire a handgun on a school campus, this will occur in a crowded school classroom. Since these educators take it upon themselves to carry concealed weapons to school, they, and not their school district, should pay for the training. Those who object to these conditions always have the option of leaving their weapons at home.
Copyright C 2006 Deseret News Publishing Co.Provided by ProQuest Information and Learning Company. All rights Reserved.
I would like to point out.
Hank Price proudly admitted that “I carry my gun in my truck” BEFORE it was legal for him to obtain a permit to do so.
The fact that some, and I did say some, gun owners willingly flout the law does not speak well of them to me.
Nathan,
It was not my intention to attack you. I’m a liberal. As a liberal, I seek to understand.
Perhaps I should have just asked instead of speculating that your motivation in carrying a gun was fear.
So I will ask.
What is it that makes you feel you need to be armed at all times?
I simply do not understand the motivation.
Oh and before you have me “lining up against the wall”, you need to acknowledge that MOST people cannot say what they would do if confronted by someone with a gun. YOU have military training. Most people do not. Having a gun pointed at you puts most people in a whole new reality. I know. I’ve had guns pointed at me twice out of mistake on the gun owners part.
Here’s the link if you think I made all of this up:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20061210/ai_n16902960
Now troll-boy……….who are YOU to accuse anyone of nic-switching and trolling?
LOLLOLLOLLOL
I’m off to read awhile before I crash.
JR,
If you care to read it, this sums up pretty nicely why I carry a gun:
On Sheep, Wolves and Sheepdogs(From the book, On Combat, by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman)
http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm
I made the comments to NE Heartbreaker and Apophis reacts to it.
Apophis then admits to being the troll Ne Heartbreaker.
Apophis is one of the Lib trolls.
Another example of the ignorance of most who posted on this topic today, is their ignorance about how to carry concealed, as if a weapon cannot be easily hidden from view and carried in a safe and secure manner.
Easily carried in summer, on your hip or small-of-back, in holsters that secure the firearm, and conceal it beneath clothing. A long loose-fitting shirt and shorts in summer, and in winter, it’s even easier.
I know someone who routinely carries a large Glock 45 (Glock 21)on his hip, AND a small Glock (Glock 30) as a back-up in small-of-back position. You’d never know it from looking at him.
Compact firearms (such as the Glock 30) can even be carried without a holster in the front pants pocket, or cargo pants with pockets work great too.
Teachers could (and in UT they do)easily carry in a similar manner.
No one you are with knows that you are carrying. But the criminals always think twice, before attacking someone.
And the idiot who sarcastically said why not have open carry of AK-47’s doesn’t understand the difference between carrying for self-defense, and irresponsible brandishing of a firearm.
And the idiot completely underestimates the mental capacity of criminals who really do know the value of concealed carry laws. The deterrent effect of not knowing who is or isn’t carrying, has driven down crime rates as shown by the Lott & Mustard studies. (See KSgrm post for link)
Open carry is allowed in some states, but concealed carry is by far more prevelent. Concealed carry is safer (less likely to steal your weapon) and serves as a more effective deterrent – since NOT KNOWING is more risky for a criminal then being able to see (as with open-carry) who is and who isn’t able to shoot back if attacked.
Since millions of Americans have demonstrated the competency to carry concealed, I would hope our teachers would be allowed to do the same, if they choose to do so.
Absolutely! Teachers should have the same rights as all Americans when it comes to carrying guns. They take a one day class, and demonstrate their firing abilities, and pay for a carry and conceal like ANY OTHER KANSAS RESIDENT.
Any questions? I think not.
Next discussion item.
Idiots.
The question you REALLY want to ask is, “Should Kansas teachers be allowed to carry their guns to school?”
That is the question.
The answer is: Does state law allow guns on public school property?
Not yet AP. Kansas law would have to be changed, before teachers would be allowed to defend children and themselves from attacking gunmen.
Airline Pilot,
Concealed carry license holders are allowed to carry on school property, just not into the buildings.
SOMEONE needs to have a firearm in every school, in every district in Kansas.
Who is that “someone”?
Do you hire a cop as a school officer?
Or for free, you allow teachers to carry the guns to school.
We don’t care if people think it
ain’t cool.
Gonna witness to all of my friends,gonna show them how to carryagain!
Pack your lunch, pack your homework, and pack your firearm.
God bless America, pass the amunition.
Nathan,
When I ask YOU a question, I do not expect the answer to be a link.
And I see “kansas” is making with t the pickanic show.
I’ve said what I had to say to this. I’ll come back for your answer Nathan.
JR,
Sorry to dissapoint you. That link explains exactly why I carry.
If you don’t want to read it, then you don’t get your answer.
cosmos doesn’t even have residence in Kansas, he just comes here to influence local politics as any political hack would.
Posted by: “I was / was not injured in combat” Kansas |
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/open-thread–11.html#c86414064
Max lives in Des Moines.
Nathan,
When you ask me for my thoughts, I give you my thoughts.
I do not send you off to read a link.
Curious all this interest in where I live.
I’ve never commented one way or the other.
Given all the nuts on this blog, I prefer not to provide my personal info.
Posted by: “I was / was not injured in combat” Kansas |
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/open-thread–11.html#c86414064
Max lives in Des Moines.
Posted by: CapnAmerica | October 14, 2007 at 10:09 PM
thanks for that post Capn, it adds to the collection where you come in topics and disrupt them with your ad hominem posts.
Wanna show down? I’ll give you one.
Given all the nuts on this blog, I prefer not to provide my personal info.Posted by: Max
Gee Max, you won’t get invited to the “meet” if you continue on that vein.
These are little people in Wichita without a life – and they meet regularly. If you are from somewhere ELSE, you’ve zero right to post here.
Further, this blog only WANTS little people from south central Kansas heronto pertaining.
Get with the program! This is a Green Acres affair.
Curious all this interest in where I live.
I’ve never commented one way or the other.
Given all the nuts on this blog, I prefer not to provide my personal info.Posted by: Max | October 14, 2007 at 10:36 PM
If you never revealed your location:
Well Max, the only way Capt UNamerican would know that is if the WEBLOG was capturing the IP Address on your posts.
So the WEBLOG must have revealed the posters information to Captain, who in turn emailed it to his boys on the blog.
So much for anyone posting here.
Despite anything Capt Unamerica, JR, or the other regulars say – they are in fact for censorship and Unamerican activities. They belong in the USSR or maybe China.
But not in America.
Everything they post, therefore is suspect.
Maybe this was how Stalin meant to take over?
PS: You can change your IP in a minute. If that is the problem, let me know and I will publish procedures right here for everyone.
JR,
I hardly ever send someone off to read a link.
Fine, I will summarize what the link says:
In this world there are sheep, sheepdogs and wolves.
People who do not think that there are evil people in this world who want to do you harm are sheep. They are the ones who wonder why someone would want to carry concealed.
The wolves are the people who prey on the sheep. They are the ones who want to do you harm or someone you love harm or take from you whatever they can.
Sheepdogs are those who recognize that there are wolves and are prepared to face them and protect themselves, the ones they love, and all the other sheep.
I carry concealed because I recognize that there are people out there who want to do others harm and I am prepared to protect myself and the ones I love from them.
Ah
Here we have our quandary.
YOU see enemies.
I see victims.
A kid who would go and shoot up a school is to me a failure of society. I earlier addressed how to deal with that.
You want to deal with society’s failure at it’s end and with a gun. One way or another, the result is death.
JR,
I have already said I want to deal with it at all ends.
And yet again, you attempt to tell me what it is I think.
I don’t see enemies. I see someone who wants to harm me or someone I love and I am not going to let them.
Are you?
Your argument is like saying you don’t believe in wearing a seat belt because it deals with the problem at the end.
We should really be addressing all these bad drivers and find ways to prevent accidents rather than wear seat belts.
Do you wear your seat belt?
No Nathan I don’t wear a seatbelt.
I drive defensively.
JR,
Are you serious? You seriously don’t wear a seat belt?
Why?
Medical condition Nathan. Also, I drive, as I said defensively. I’ve had no accidents in more than 25 years that were my fault.
JR,
Do you make your son wear his seatbelt?
Only because I’ve been fined for not doing so twice.
Once in a parking lot!
Big Gov. ya take the good ya take the bad.
troll-boy……………if you want to think I would waste my time to change nics, go for it.
“I made the comments to NE Heartbreaker and Apophis reacts to it.
Apophis then admits to being the troll Ne Heartbreaker.
Apophis is one of the Lib trolls.
Posted by: Kansas | October 14, 2007 at 09:39 PM”
If I want to take swipe at you or any other reichwinger, I’ll do it under my regular nic. I’ve never shyed away from anyone here.
You on the other hand are a proven troll and nic switcher – “khan, republickhan, JM…….”
The list goes on and on…………
Off to work now!
JR
“Why do you carry a gun?”
If you’re still out there and really want to understand read the following. It’s a little long winded but Connor gets to the meat of it.
http://www.americanhandgunner.com/GunCrank2.html
“Rage, Reflection and Rejection”
Coddle the obviously crazed and dangerous. Brush aside and ignore their prolonged, repeated, graphic threats of grisly mass murder. Minimize their malignant malice; indulge it as “diversity” and celebrate its “otherness.” If the most obvious threat is brought before a court, then fumble and fail, without follow-up, and hold no one accountable for it, because the guilty are “gentle, compassionate, socially-sensitive souls.” Do not blink at the ticking time bomb’s return to the classroom, where his freshly embittered brain spews out even more and greater warnings of the coming explosion.http://www.americanhandgunner.com/CIS0907.html
http://www.americanhandgunner.com/CIS0907.htmlFirst, disarm as many citizens as possible. Restrict their God-given right to self-defense, and make those who successfully deter predators the subjects of aggressive prosecution and endless life-destroying lawsuits on behalf of their would-be murderers. Create “killing boxes,” and fill them with infantilized, mind-massaged victims, and give them rules against resisting killers. Forbid trained, experienced, armed citizens and even off-duty peace officers from bearing arms in those zones, and ridicule those who protest as “paranoids.”
Heck,If you’re really that worried about people coming to shoot you, maybe your efforts would be better spent not trying so hard to piss off so many people. When you build yourself a fortress, you also build yourself a prison.
Jed
“trying so hard to piss off so many people”
Are you saying that fellow bloggers here might be inclined to shoot me because of what I say on this shitty little Blog?
Since you don’t know me except for what I say here that is the only logical thing I can infer from you statement.
If such is the case you just illustrated one of the key characteristics of the typical gunbanner.(I don’t know if you really are one) A lack of impulse control. And since many gun banners lack impulse control they assume that all of the schlubs like me who choose to carry the most effective means of self defense available to them also lack impulse control. Thus the assumption by many that we will start shooting at someone over something as meaningless as a comment on this shitty little blog.