Wichita is ground zero in the latest New York Times Magazine cover story, which says the religious right "shows signs of coming apart beneath its leaders." As we say in our editorial today, writer David D. Kirkpatrick "oversold the idea of an ‘evangelical crackup,’ but there is no question that in Wichita and far beyond, Christians are rethinking how and how much to bring their Bible-based values to bear in the public square."
The article ends with this quote from the Rev. Terry Fox, whose transition from "Jerry Falwell of the Sunflower State" to pastor of Summit Church frames the piece: "Some might compare the religious right to a snake. We may be in our hole right now, but we can come out and bite you at any time."
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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96 Comments
“”Some might compare the religious right to a snake. We may be in our hole right now, but we can come out and bite you at any time.”
Well, heheheh. You’ve heard me say it before in a different context. The only good snake is a dead snake.
And how do you kill a snake? Cut off its head.
Or its money….
Or both…
This editoral assumes all Christians are conservative and bear their souls on the election trail.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is good to monitor these blogs periodically to keep a close eye on the pulse of the liberals.
Your snake comment will surely tick off Christians from the Garden of Eden. I’m sure that was the intent.
Unfair to snakes.
You can’t judge success until you know what the goals were, prior to the action taken.
The arrogance of the left is telling.
The NYT is loosing subscribers and ad revenue every month.
Is the Christian Right loosing members?
I admire the Christian Right, though I do not agree with all of them on everything.
Those who put 100% of their faith in any human being will be disappointed.
I think the “flock” understands that point.
The failures of some of their leaders will not discourage them from doing what they believe is right.
Much of the Christian Fundmentalist congregations took a u-turn from real social issues a long time ago. While they were off on their Crusades against immorality there were a lot of changes - some good and some bad. Nevertheless, I am glad to see they are back. Our schools, neighborhoods and environment need the additional good stewards from our Christian Churches.
No, we’re the ones who have to “bear” their souls on the election trail.
Seems to me that on the election trail, they BARE their asses more than their souls.
Hope that evangelical thing works out for obama…
Yep. We’ve seen what a “good steward” terry fox is with money. His AND other peoples’.
You can keep him and his lying, theivin’ hatin’ ilk in your schools. And your neighborhood.
HOOD being the operative word. White, with a magnolia on it?
“Crusades against immorality”?
uh… no.
Crusades against gays, women and democrats?
yes.
Glad to see it’s working out so well for them…
Remember: The “snake” characterization came out from the forked tongue of Terry Fox Himself. Sure, he phrased it as “some may call us” blah blah blah, but it’s his straw man, and he’s the one who made sure it was a venomous one.
How’s all that hate working out for ya, Terry?
I guess that is what we call a Freudian slip? heheheheheheheh.
Apt though.
A dangerous, evil beast lurks below ground, in a hole, and threatens to bite.
Now THERE’s a christian metaphor for ya!
I wonder where the other two heads of the snake are? Joe? Fred?
Maybe terry ate them both….
And yet ANOTHER positive image of kansas courtesy of the “reverand” terry.
Is there no way to shed the association between kansas and terry, joe and fred?
I agree with ben though, self identifying with snakes is REALLY harmful to snakes…
shhhhhhhhhsh!
be bewwwy bewwwy quiet. We’re snake hunting today!
Farmgrrl,
Fortunately for everyone, Terry Fox is not all Christians. And his audience grows less and less. If his old congregation at Immanuel truly believed in him, they would have all followed him to http://WWW. As it is, it’s just a few dozen families who make up his new congregation.
He’s welcome to them.
Kansas voters disagree with him only by degree. And you know it!
Was great of Ferry Tox(ic) to call himself a snake at the end of the NYT article: saved the rest of us the trouble.
Revered Fox’s idea of the love of Christ looks a lot like Fred Phelps’.
Farmgrrl,
When he was at Immanuel, Fox claimed a congregation of 7000. Now he’s got “three hundred,” and I would bet _that_ number is inflated.
That’s 4% of his former flock.
I think ole’ Brother Terry has hit his high-water mark, and will never have the same political power he _briefly_ held. Hearts and minds change.
I have to stay optimistic.
I know Tom, and that’s why I love you.
Not being a leader anymore, I have the luxury of being realistic.
And…
The analogy is unfair to snakes in yet another way.
Snakes pay their property taxes.
Terry? Eh…. not so much…..
Like leona helmsly, terry evidently feels that taxes are… well… so for the LITTLE people.
And you seem to be under the illusion that the better than seventy percent of Kansas voters who AGREE with terry HAVE hearts.
And minds.
“Some might compare the religious right to a snake. We may be in our hole right now, but we can come out and bite you at any time.”
And that, in a nutshell, encapsulates exactly what is wrong with Terry Fox. He is mean, and his movement is mean, and he immediately resorts to a mean analogy.
People on the coasts and in the beltway still don’t get what happened here. They make the same mistake over and over again. When the Christian Right goes too far, when push too hard, the foul weather voters in Kansas wake up and push back. Morrison and Sebelius didn’t win on the basis of Iraq. And the state board of education did not change hands on the basis of Iraq. There were voices within the Republican Party who tried to warn of the dangers of the Christian Right. They tick people off. Their leaders come across as intolerant and mean because, well, because they are. Kirkpatrick hardly touched on the election setbacks in 2006, or the earlier setbacks when the State School Board overreached in 1998. His only reference was the see saw nature of the State School Board, but if he paid attention to why it was see saw, he would have gotten an important piece of information.
The Christian Right is politically conservative BECAUSE they are theologically conservative, or theologically conservative because they are politically conservative. But there are a lot of people who are theologically and politically conservative, but one is not the reason for the other. Furthermore, for some people theological conservatism does not lead to political conservatism, particularly on some economic issues. For example, despite the frequent invocation of the straw man, a lot people who oppose abortion on theological grounds are in fact consistent in that they also support social programs. They are not, in other words, the sort of economic conservatives who scream socialism and wealth redistribution at the idea of federally funded healthcare or education.
There were voices in the Republican Party after the 2004 victories who were sounding warnings against the Christian Right. They are continually active, and they continue to push. Eventually, they push too far, and anger too many people. When they do, they lose. They start to win again once the foul weather voters feel that they have expressed their outrage. That is, until they push too hard again.
The Christian Right’s agenda is ultimately unpopular. It is based too much on persecution complexes and what it opposes. They show no repect for those they disagree with, and eventually too many voters identify with the people the CR expressed contempt for. James Dobson is a perfect example. He fumes and threatens and doesn’t seem to realize that the more he pushes, the bigger liability he and people like him become for Republicans and even other conservatives.
“All three happen to fit your agenda farm girl. But it doesn’t fit the majority. Sorry.”
hehehehehe. Tom, can you forward me a copy of that mean ol’ GAY AGENDA?
And I see medusa does not disagree with me. Just notes that the MAJORITY agrees with fox.
john_stone, yer still INSANE!
But say hey to aaron for me, will ya?
“When the Christian Right goes too far, when push too hard, the foul weather voters in Kansas wake up and push back.”
Still waiting for that repeal of the hate amendment.
I bet your GRANDCHILDREN wont see it.
But please, continue to defend those voters in kansas. Even if it flies in the face of reality.
Too bad the mongoose isnt as native to kansas as the yellow striped church snake.
I thought it a pretty interesting and thought provoking article.
I agree that there is an expanding of issues important to evangelicals and as a result to evangelical leaders, which I am glad to see. The church I attend is not affiliated with any national organization and there is very little mention of political issues in the pulpit. But politics are not the focus that Christ taught anyway.
Political views come out of personal conviction, of which religion is, of course, a part. But I’m pretty sure that religious leaders should not be championing political issues.
That’s the one with the long yellow stripe down the back, right?
Take some “bad” christians, turn em loose on the public, claiming God’s will, bla, bla,….whadya get?Folks like farmgirl….Who I happen to respect much more than the christians who feel it is their duty to save me/her from being who we are.
Girl, I like us.It’s a good day to be us.
And you seem to be under the illusion that the better than seventy percent of Kansas voters who AGREE with terry HAVE hearts. And minds.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 30, 2007 at 12:59 PM
70% of the people who bothered to vote, apparently. But even many of them aren’t too happy about their vote, especially when they learn what “Part B” really means.
We got rolled on the amendment. It passed so quickly in the 2005 session, and was on a ballot so fast (11 weeks), there was no time to run a credible campaign and educate voters.
You also can’t leave out the fact that there was no united, statewide LGBT advocacy group then. Just a bunch of damned drama queens and divas fighting each other more than the amendment. If we’d had our act together, we may have been able to stop the amendment in the Legislature. It was > < that close.
Thanks Tracy. And you are right, I mostly had a live and let live attitude towards churches.
Until 2005.
Now? Heheheheh. I’d fight to the death to rid this nation of their scourge.
“That’s the one with the long yellow stripe down the back, right?”
You got it Tom. The very one!
I was there, Tom, remember?
It would have taken some leadership and support from governor leadership to stop it. And for Dennis McKinney and Anthony Hensley to act like democrats instead of terryfoxocrats.
And… you see how well that worked out.
“You also can’t leave out the fact that there was no united, statewide LGBT advocacy group then. Just a bunch of damned drama queens and divas fighting each other more than the amendment.”
I dont normally blame the victim.
“But even many of them aren’t too happy about their vote, especially when they learn what “Part B” really means.”
Still waiting on all those remorseful voters to get the repeal on the ballot…
If it doesnt concern them, they dont give a rat’s ass. Typical kansas.
I dont normally blame the victim.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 30, 2007 at 01:17 PM
It’s not blame, it’s an honest assessment of what was going on at the time.
If we don’t learn from our mistakes, then what?
Great job Blue Maxx posting on the NYT article and giving Rhonda a lead to follow.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/open-thread-103.html#comment-88089846
I dont disagree that we did a horrible job. In 2004, OUR OWN PEOPLE didnt even know it was going to be introduced, and we managed to keep it off the ballot then. And we were LESS organized than in 2005.
It isnt our fault it was passed in 2005. You know damn well where the blame lies.
The repukes, the wingnuts, the christianists and the governor all share blame.
Or credit, if you are bigot from kansas.
But then, that’s redundant, no?
Still waiting on all those remorseful voters to get the repeal on the ballot…Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 30, 2007 at 01:19 PM
It took from 1863 to 1964 - 101 years - to go from Emancipation to the Civil Rights Act. Going for the “instant gratification” via lawsuits and judicial rulings is exactly what helped fuel the wave of state marriage bans two & three years ago. What happened in Massachusetts and San Francisco was not helpful, and the rest of the nation will be paying for the backlash for a long time to come.
Time and relentlessness are what’s required.
Ok, I’m out. I wont make your job anymore difficult today.
“What happened in Massachusetts and San Francisco was not helpful,”
Unless you live in Mass or SanFran.
That’s like saying what happened in Birmingham was NOT helpful to the civil rights movement.
You know, the one obama turned against us this week?
“They show no respect for those they disagree with…”——————————-
ksagnostic, those words explain a lot of what ails us and our country. And, until we get to the point where we can respect those we disagree with we’ll have partisan politics where being the winner is more important than doing what’s best, we’ll have this sewer of a blog, we’ll have endless wars that prove and solve nothing, we’ll have terry fox sullying the name of God and Christians…
We all deserve better.
Now I’m really out. Yer the last person I want to argue with.
we managed to keep it off the ballot then.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 30, 2007 at 01:22 PM
Six moderate Republicans who voted against the ban in the spring of 2004 lost their seats in that summer’s primaries, and were replaced by wingnuts.
And yeah, there’s plenty of blame to go around, from the Governor’s office all the way down. Don’t skip Democratic House “leadership,” and the little arm-twisting games the Asst. Minority Leader was playing.
Arrrggh.
Yer the last person I want to argue with.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 30, 2007 at 01:26 PM
Hugs to you, dear.
we love you grrl! you have the right to be angry!
I was outside of the state at the time, so couldnt vote on it, but to me, it seemed like a foregone conclusion. As farmgirl says, 70 percent voted for it. They don’t seem all that much in a hurry to get rid of it, and the “compassionate conservatives” dont seem to care that their stances pretty much encourage non monogamous relationships in the GLBT community, because there is no way to “officially” commit.
I know this is “breaking” our ineffectual little boycott, but just a reminder about Arizona:
http://www.azsos.gov/results/2006/general/BM107.htm
It was defeated by a 58 percent margin in Pima County, no, not huge, but decisive.
So maybe–just maybe–there is hope for the future.
Back Nov. 1. . .
Funny on how missed-read the religious people can be.Religious people always associate the snake as the devil.
Gerald Winrod never really left, his ideological descendents just got a bigger bible and a mega church. The first time I listened to tax cheat Terry Fox I thought of Orwell’s 1984 and the two minutes of hate expanded to an hour with a gospel choir.
I find it interesting that Fox would associate himself with a snake, since they usually consider serpents to be evil. I also find it amusing that they feel that allowing a gay ocuple some sort of protections would endanger their fragile heterosexual relationships.
I wonder whay they are so insecure.
Fox belongs down a hole ok.
Then someone should shove a hose down the hole and pump in about 15,000 gallons of water.
Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, when you are going amongst the wolves and the sodomites.(Matthew 10:14-16)
See, even the Bible has irony in it. “Wise as serpents” indeed.
Parkay, is that what you tell yourself every time you venture into a public restroom to meet a Republican senator?
There are really bad people in this world and those like fox and phelps who do their evil doings in the name of god are the very worst kind of bad.
“Parkay, is that what you tell yourself every time you venture into a public restroom to meet a Republican senator?”
I don’t think making fun of homosexuals is very productive.
parkay,
Jesus admonished his disciples to be as ‘wise’ as serpents; Reverend Fox threatened his political enemies with ‘biting’ them as would a snake.
There’s all the difference in the world between the two references. Reverend Fox’s threat had nothing to do with the Jesus’s charge to his disciples. Nothing.
I’m one “conservative Christian” who is repulsed by the people who say they represent me. SCREW YOU TERRY FOX, YOU DO NOT REPRESENT ME!
Jesus wants his leaders to love HIS children. It is God’s job to judge, not yours Terry Foxx. Your either drunk with power, and lost, or just a purely evil person!
When “we” went and got political, we took a big risk, and it’s blown up in our faces. NEVER PUT YOUR NAME, YOUR REPUTATION, OR PEOPLES PERCEPTIONS OF GOD ON THE LINE FOR THE CAUSE OF ANY PERSON, POLITICAL PARTY/CANDIDATE, OR WORLDLY CAUSE! IT IS A GAMBLE, AND THE STAKES ARE PEOPLES SOULS!
Many say the devils greatest accomplishment was convincing people he didn’t exist. WRONG, his greatest accomplishment was being the religious right, and convincing people it is Godly!
“Be wise as serpents and harmless as doves, when you are going amongst the wolves and the sodomites.(Matthew 10:14-16)Posted by: parkay | October 30, 2007 at 02:33 PM ”
There are many versions and translations of the bible.
Parkay, would you let me know which one this came from so I can look it up for myself.
Thanks, Brian
I don’t think making fun of homosexuals is very productive.Posted by: fleettwood | October 30, 2007 at 02:55 PM
No, but making fun of liars and hypocrites sure is.
Didn’t Jesus also warn us about false preachers and not to follow them? Maybe He was referring to Phelps, Fox et.al.
“Didn’t Jesus also warn us about false preachers and not to follow them? Maybe He was referring to Phelps, Fox et.al.
Posted by: Ben | October 30, 2007 at 03:42 PM ”
Amen
I understand it is a Pastors job to warn people of the consequences of sin. They are responsible because of the position they hold, to an extent, for peoples souls.
But you do not win people over by getting in their face, and being critical of their actions. You attract people through love. It it’s like they say “you attract more bees with honey.” YES fear tactics do work better with some people, but overall, it’s not the best way to attract followers! It might have been in 1920, but it’s not now!
A pastor is responsible for their flock. Preaching isn’t all about love, tolerance, and pink clouds, even though it is part of it. Sin is terrible, and sinning is like driving the spikes into Christ yourself. Their is nothing wrong with reminding people of that fact, but we all DO sin, and the whole reason for the Sacrafice of Jesus was to make it possible for us to be with God, even though we are so unworthy.
Much of what the religious right does is exagerated by those reporting it. But even after weeding through the information and misinformation, it boils down to the fact that the “right” is failing.
It seems as if the religious right has fallen into the habit of stirring up their own base as a means of building their power. It works, it raises money, but it pushes away many many more. It just isn’t the message we need to send to non believers, or people who are on the fence.
Scott,”As farmgirl says, 70 percent voted for it. They don’t seem all that much in a hurry to get rid of it,…….”
Jim Crow laws were hugely popular in the south and elsewhere before the Civil Rights Movement, and that battle is still continuing. Remember also that gay and lesbian people represent an even smaller minority than African-Americans.
If the vote to repeal the marriage amendment were to take place today, it would stll be defeated, but by a smaller margin than that original 70%.
It won’t be quick and it won’t be easy, but it will be worthwhile. We’ll get there if we refuse to give up!
UPDATE
Catholics don’t recognize muslims, muslims don’t recognize Jews and ……………..
the religious right don’t recognize each other in airport rest rooms, liquor stores or porn shops …..
“I don’t think making fun of homosexuals is very productive.”
I never mentioned anything about homosexuals. Is there something you know about Parkay that the rest of us don’t know?
Ordinary porn-lovers view it in privacy; r-r’s form groups to watch it together.
Terry Fox has a big mouth, a weak congregation, and he is from Arkansas. An Arkansas preacher is no different than an Arkansas moonshiner….deep down inside they want to make a ‘bear’ squeal like a pig.
Darn it, I miss all the good discussions anymore! A snake! Gee, what an appropriate comparison.
The Bible also tells us to not pray as the heathens for show. It tells us to go into our prayer closest, and commune with God.
Prayer was never ment to be the public show that many are trying to make it. No “God bless us”, the courts are not telling you to cease praying. That is ridiculous. No one can stop you from praying.
Ask yourself what your intentions are. Why do you so badly want prayer over PA systems before football games? Is God going to hear you better over speakers? Do the other people in the stands need to hear what you are communicating to God?
It seems to me that this sort of display is just that- a display, intended to make a point to others. When in the Bible are we ever commanded to turn prayer into a statement to other people instead of a conversation with God?
I was once of the same opinion as you. I thought that prayer in public at my high school and so on and so forth made me more of a Christian, then at some point I realized that this wasn’t about talking to God it was about showing off.
In other words, Christians, it’s time to grow up.
OMFG!!!!
“Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights.”
Cry me a goddam river.
And guess what? Everytime I go to the voting booth, I’ll be thinking of you.
And guess which way I’ll be voting?
ANYWAY but one that benefits asswipes like YOU.
Bet on it.
“this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles.”
Funny.
That’s exactly opposite of what founder John Adams said:
“It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [of constructing the US Constitution] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.”
Or founder Thomas Jefferson:
As Thomas Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom:
“Where the preamble [of the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom] declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting “Jesus Christ,” so that it would read “A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.”
Or the US Constitution:
“nowhere in the Constitution do we have a single mention of Christianity, God, Jesus, or any Supreme Being”
Or founder James Madison:
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
And
“the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion”
Render unto God the things that are God’s, and render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar’s . . .
Jesus was the first believer in the separation of Church and State.
Hey “God Bless America,” why didn’t you attribute your diatribe to Nick Gholson, from whom you stole it?
http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/prayer.asp
Snakes help control RODENTS that spread disease throughout the environment. Slither on, Fox!
JB that was an excellent post. One of the things that irritates me about some religious groups…the reciting of prayers. I’m sure God loves to hear the same prayer over and over again, that doesn’t come from the heart.
“God bless us one and all … especially those who denounce Him , God bless America, despite all her faults. She is still the greatest nation of all. 2007 will be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions … and our Military come home from all the wars.
Keep looking up.
Posted by: God Bless us every one ”
Why do I not want to hear a prayer before a football game? Because PUBLIC school is about the Public, it’s not God. It’s not religion. It’s a freaking ballgame. If you want to say a prayer to yourself for those things go right ahead, but don’t take time out of my life to have to participate in your little freakshow. And for what? So YOU feel better imposing your religious beliefs down everyone else’s throat? I don’t think so. This is a nation made of Christians, true, but it is NOT a nation founded on Christianity.Our nation is great because of religious diversity. You should have to live in an area where you are the minority religion. Maybe then you’d get it.
“Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.”
Yeah, right.
And our Bible also tells us not to pray on the street corners and impose our religiousity on everybody else.
In our country we have freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion…don’t use a public venue to express your faith to those who are not there for that purpose. I don’t give a darn if the kids want gather and pray around the flag pole..but if I’m sitting in a classroom or on a football field, I shouldn’t be subjected to Christianity unless I’m enrolled in a parochial school.I’ll never forget the time back in the 70s when we went to see the fireworks…we were in a long line and some church took it upon themselves to preach through a bullhorn to the all people waiting in line for the show. Let me tell you, there were no converts to Christianity that day!
“Our Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying.”
NO ONE is telling you to stop praying..just don’t force me to listen to it if I don’t want to.
ksfarmgirl needs to quit milking her cow and do the homework. It is a DIFFERENT Terry Fox that did not pay his property taxes. NOT the Rev. Terry Fox.
Didn’t The REV Terry Fox give $50,000 to his friend Tom for his Wild West World grand adventure?HA! I wonder what it feels like for him to be on THAT side of the coin for once?
http://www.maggotpunks.com/2006/2006-08-15.htm
I believe this IS the Rev. Terry Fox. Unless there is another Terry G with a wife named Barbara.
IS THERE ANY ENTERTAINMENT VALUE IN GOING TO WATCH FOX PREACH?
DOES HE HAVE A DECENT CHOIR?
DO THEY TAKE REQUESTS?
IS THERE A RAFFLE OR BINGO AFTERWARDS ?
Well…
When he was preaching at Hee Haw on the prairie, he DID dress like Roy Clark. That was SORTA entertaining.
I think reverand Harry Cox, is a closet homo.
ok — in fairness to Rev. Joe, he is now RETIRED… he is no longer pastor at Central, on N. Rock. So, just use Terry and Fred in your references.
And yes, there are numerous theologically Conservative churches that do not take their Conservatism to the political ball parks. That has been true for many years.
And — ummm — last time I checked, Terry Fox is associated still with the Southern Baptist Convention - largest protestant denomination in USA… So, he IS affiliated with a larger group!
And - ummm - Southern Baptists have changed drastically since I was a kid, when they didnt want ANYthing to do with politics!! Now many of them want to run the whole darned country!!
“Still waiting for that repeal of the hate amendment.
I bet your GRANDCHILDREN won’t see it.”
Maybe, but I suspect there is more reason for optimism than that. Why do you think the hate amendment was rushed through in the first place? The Christian Right is scared. People like Fox wouldn’t have even bothered with a hate amendment 20 years ago. Now, the subjects of same sex marriage and rights for people who are GBLT are on the table, and the stupid hate amendment hasn’t shut down discussion of the subjects. We have Gay-Straight Alliance clubs in several Wichita high schools. My step daughter helped to start a chapter in her school, and they were overwhelmed at the turnout for their first meeting. I consider it a reason for hope anyway.
“But please, continue to defend those voters in kansas. Even if it flies in the face of reality.”
This statement reveals more about your mindset than my assessment of reality.
1) I was giving an explanation, not a defense. I think the Kirkpatrick piece missed some important information about why the Christian Right is fragmenting, namely, that are are foul weather voters who either don’t bother to vote or will go along with them by voting for people with R’s after their name up to a point, but when the CR continues to push, they turn out or turn against them. I think that analysis reflects the reality of what is happening in Kansas.
2) Does the vote on the hate amendment reflect widespread bigotry against people who are romantically and sexually attracted to people of the same gender? Yes. No newsflash there. But there is bigotry and there is bigotry. Bigotry based on unintentional ignorance is curable. Some of the cure is hearing the jackasses whose bigotry is based on intentional ignorance. The other is increasing familiarity with the people being demonized. I don’t subscribe to A or non-A thinking about people. A person can be bigoted against others, including myself, and yet still not be written off as irredeemably evil.
3) All this being said, I agree with the headline of this thread. The Christian Right will continue to remain a force, because they are focused and reliable. The foul weather voters who slap them down, on the other hand, are neither focused nor reliable. I can only hope that some of the fragmentation within the movement that Kirkpatrick is talking about is indeed happening. However, even though some in the Republican Party are waking up to the fact that the CR can be a liability, the fact remains that the CR will be very influential in the Republican party for some time to come. The reason? Because another mistake Kirkpatrick made is assuming that Kansas is a stronghold for the Christian Right. The real strongholds are to the south and southeast. The “damn northern federalist yankees can’t tell us what to do” mentality has shifted from racial issues to church and state issues. The copied e-mail spam (which I have received, by the way) is revealing of just that kind of mindset. Since the Texas legislature has successfully gerrymandered the congressional districts, and the CR controls the party there (the Texas Republican party platform is simply an embarrassingly stupid mix of two of the worst elements of “wingnuttia”, the CR and “the Federal government and UN are a socialist conspiracy against free enterprise” paranoid anarcho-capitalists nitwits.
On the other hand, even southern voters apparently have their limits, witness the fate of Fob James.
Hey, old toe-tapping Sen. Larry Craig is a religious right guy aganist gay marriage. Will, I guess Larry really didn’t want to marry the guy in the bathroom stall—just have an affair must be ok.
IOKIYAR
They only worry about what they say and hope people believe. What they do is a different matter.
Larry really didn’t want to marry the guy in the bathroom stall—just have an affair must be ok.
Posted by: thinkfirst | October 31, 2007 at 09:09 AM
Thinkfirst the dems can’t waffle on their man Bill and then expect better from the repubs. Someone has to be the leader. Either the dems take the high ground or be relegated to the back of the line again.
“ksfarmgirl needs to quit milking her cow and do the homework. It is a DIFFERENT Terry Fox that did not pay his property taxes. NOT the Rev. Terry Fox.”
Prove it.
Another terry fox, living at terry fox’s address with a wife named barbara?
hehehehehehehehehehehehehehhe….
funny, on another thread today ^^ is saying she is a dem.
Now here, she’s talking like she isnt.
I guess to wingnuts, a lie is a lie is a lie…
WTF?
“Now, the subjects of same sex marriage and rights for people who are GBLT are on the table, and the stupid hate amendment hasn’t shut down discussion of the subjects.”
heheheh. Well, it may not have shut down the discussion but it sure SHUT DOWN my opportunities to have equal protection under the law.
And health insurance from my spouse of choice.
But please, keep talking about it while we cant get married or share the benefits of marriage. Knowing that you are TALKING about it makes me feel better. WTF? Even WINGNUTS talk about it….
Jude 1:16-19
16These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18They said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
“But there is bigotry and there is bigotry.”
Really? Because it ALL has the same end effect on me and mine.
“However, even though some in the Republican Party are waking up to the fact that the CR can be a liability, the fact remains that the CR will be very influential in the Republican party for some time to come. The reason? Because another mistake Kirkpatrick made is assuming that Kansas is a stronghold for the Christian Right.”
Heheheh. When kris kobach is NO LONGER the state chair, I’ll issue you an apology.
Wingnuttia WORKS in Kansas.
Oh and Chas? Joe may be retired for social security purposes, but I’m willing to bet that he and his bad knees are STILL not retired from bigotry.
Yes. I am dismissing him and other bigots as being irredemably evil.
Until they prove otherwise…
Given that logic, even FRED is not irredemably evil.
Peace agnostic. I usually at least partially agree with you, but on this one, not so much.
TF,” I guess Larry really didn’t want to marry the guy in the bathroom stall—just have an affair must be ok.”
Affair hell, he didn’t even want to know the guy’s name!
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