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Open thread 10/17
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Oct. 17, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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342 Comments
‘British Explorer to Travel to North Pole’http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g8257OkvDP_DLXWn1lD5iYm7bM6wD8SAIE701
“A British explorer said Tuesday he plans to carry out the most accurate survey of the thickness of the Arctic ice during a 1,240-mile trek to the North Pole.
The Vanco Arctic Survey will take millions of readings of the thickness and density of the ice and snow next year to try to provide the clearest picture of the polar ice cap — and how long it will last.
Explorer Pen Hadow’s three-member team will pull a sled-mounted, ground-penetrating radar from Point Barrow in Alaska to the North Pole between February and June. The radar will measure the depth of the ice every 8 inches, producing some 10 million readings in all.”
More at link, and photos of team, polar immersion suit, and ’sledge-boat’.
Pen Hadow in 2003 made a record solo, non re-supplied trek to the North Pole.
More info re sea ice measurments,’Explorers’ quest for key ice data ‘http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7036058.stm
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=rush-letter-for-charity
The letter is up to 65,100!
Media Matters has the latest, from his Oct. 15 show: Limbaugh bragging that he once threatened a journalist doing a story on him.
Posted by: could it be… rush ?? | October 17, 2007 at 01:41 AM
Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.
If this is the only source you have you are hard up for sources. When will we have a Media Matters dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting liberal misinformation in the U.S. media.
Until that happens your arguments fall on deaf ears. Rush is what the left hates most a loud voice crying in the wilderness of liberal media bias. Keep up the good work Rush.
The thought occurs to me that those who are against the Global Warming issue(as contributed by hunans) These people seem to exhibit many selfish comments. They tend to think only of their own small space on the planet.
Those who are open to Global Warming being contributed by humans are more concerned with the well being of the Planet, and in particular for those who are not yet in this life.
Those opposing human contribution seem to be only concerned for their own future, rather than in the future of other people, either not even born yet, or people in other parts of the planet, who are not as fortunate as most of us.
There is a tendency for such opponents of Mr. Gore, and others, to be very egotistical, and in nearly a textbook fashion, very afraid, and in fear, react as the sandlot school yard bully types.
Those fearful of their own abilities to succeed in life beyond ownership of “things”; whose lives are tied to what they Own much more than in who they Are.
In my own expertise as a professional therapist, I tend to see these symptoms in people who are those who like to be in control of all aspects of life, and especially those who like to be in Control of people – spouses, children, employees, people under them (or perceived to be) in their own realities, or at least in their imaginations.
I would be interested in comments from others who see this marked dichotomy in such people, as those who take opposing sides on the issue of Global Warming, and what might be done to alleviate the problem.
Thank you.
Nathan,
Do Christians who believe that “Jesus is the ONE TRUE Lord and Savior” tell LIES?
Nathan posted: “I beleive the HUNDREDS of credible peer reviewed scientists who do not believe the so called ‘concensus’ ”
NATHAN, prove that you did not tell a lie, by posting a link, and/or the names, of those “HUNDREDS of credible peer reviewed scientists”.
Proverbs 9:7-9
7 He who corrects a scoffer gets dishonor for himself, And he who reproves a wicked man gets insults for himself.
8 Do not reprove a scoffer, or he will hate you, Reprove a wise man and he will love you.
9 Give instruction to a wise man and he will be still wiser, Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning.
I dont know who got goofy on the Nic Stealing Kool Aid last nite, but I dont appreciate having mine stolen…. Please dont do it again….
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/declare-victory.html#comment-86652760
It really pisses me off when I have to agree with a troll. (From the top of the thread). So I beg of you to stop trolling. It only makes our side look as pathetic as the others.
Quite the little meltdown on the blog last night. I suggest that Capn I’m-so-wonderful and Kansas troll meet at dawn. Pistols at 10 paces. Make it 5, otherwise the goofballs would probably miss.
Wal-Mart is the #1 importer of Chinese goods. So, after the spree of high-profile recalls and outright bans on dangerous Chinese products, wouldn’t it be logical for Wal-Mart to take the offensive against unsafe imported goods? Shouldn’t Wal-Mart stand up for the safety of American consumers?
Wouldn’t you?
The truth is that Wal-Mart is putting profits over people – again – by blocking laws requiring disclosure of where food comes from. Instead of looking out for consumer safety, Wal-Mart is watching its own bottom line.
That’s why we put together a new ad to expose the truth about Wal-Mart and China.
Click here to watch our new ad and send it to five friends:
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/feature/foodsafety
Even among nations, Wal-Mart is China’s sixth largest trading partner: it buys more Chinese goods than industrial giants like Germany and Britain. This gives Wal-Mart the power to demand safer products from its Chinese suppliers. Unfortunately, it has demanded nothing more than lower prices, and has tried to cover up the consequences of its race to the bottom.
As consumers, we have the right to know that the products we buy are safe. Don’t let irresponsible corporations like Wal-Mart cut us out of the loop. Please watch our new ad today, and send it to five friends:
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/feature/foodsafety
The more people learn the truth about Wal-Mart, the more public pressure grows for Wal-Mart to change.
You – together with more than 402,000 fellow supporters of WakeUpWalMart.com – have the power to make Wal-Mart put people first.
Amidst seemingly endless recalls of dangerous products, Wal-Mart has tried to keep American consumers in the dark.
Let’s shine a light.
http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/feature/foodsafety
Don’t dispair. Yes they are making a big thing out of the fact that OIL is at “record highs”. The fact is that in terms of real dollars, it is at high rates but when you know why it is not so bad after all. The reason has nothing to do with shortages or demand but rather the sinking American dollar. All oil that is sold is bought with the US dollar which makes the dollar the duo facto world currency. As its value declines, the price of oil goes up to make up for the decline in value. So the real price has not went up at all. It is like, if you went to Canada last year and bought a pair of shoes for US $20, that cost C $27, you would now pay US $28 or so for the same shoes but the price would still be the same in Canadian dollars at $27. So the price really has not increased.
Richard Heckler,Wal-Mart gives us what we want, cheap stuff. Why knock them for giving us what we want?
I have never posted under the name of JM and Eier.
Happy now?Posted by: RepubliKhan | March 09, 2007 at 10:36 PM
*********
USE OF SMILEY FACES
Really, it’s that simple. :)Posted by: JM | December 26, 2006 at 11:56 AM:)Posted by: JM | December 26, 2006 at 01:39 PMgotta love it. :)Posted by: JM | January 22, 2007 at 11:51 AMOoops, my bad they do! :(Posted by: JM | January 22, 2007 at 12:11 PM
And so and so forth. :)Posted by: JM | December 26, 2006 at 03:11 PMsound scientific theory. :)Posted by: JM | December 29, 2006 at 07:53 AMwhen it is politically expedient :)Posted by: JM | October 22, 2006 at 11:54 PM
about the cow flatus? :)Posted by: JM | November 01, 2006 at 08:33 AMthe early sermon was on War. :)Posted by: Kansas | August 19, 2007 at 10:43 AMthe Libs. :)Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 11:18 AM
peaceable protesters. :)Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 11:54 AM
on TV. :)Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 05:35 AMWe can become just like France. :)Posted by: Kansas | September 24, 2007 at 12:07 AMplane. :)Posted by: Kansas | August 28, 2007 at 09:25 PM:)Posted by: Kansas | September 12, 2007 at 01:14 PM:)Posted by: Kansas | August 10, 2007 at 03:22 PM
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TIME OF POSTS
Posted by: JM | January 19, 2007 at 02:45 PM
Posted by: JM | October 30, 2006 at 03:00 AM
Posted by: JM | October 30, 2006 at 05:00 AM
Posted by: StillJM | January 05, 2007 at 01:33 AM
Posted by: JM | January 14, 2007 at 01:52 AM
Posted by: JM | January 14, 2007 at 02:34 AM
Posted by: JM | January 16, 2007 at 05:56 AM
Posted by: JM | January 16, 2007 at 06:18 AM
Posted by: JM | November 03, 2006 at 01:26 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 20, 2007 at 01:22 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 20, 2007 at 01:16 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 20, 2007 at 02:00 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 19, 2007 at 03:48 AMPosted by: Republican | April 20, 2007 at 01:16 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 20, 2007 at 02:00 AM
Posted by: Republican | April 19, 2007 at 03:48 AM
Posted by: Kansas | August 07, 2007 at 01:34 AM
Posted by: Kansas | September 26, 2007 at 01:16 AM
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BOTH DISLIKE RUSH LIMBAUGH
Besides, Rush Limbaugh I don’t listen to. I think he pontificates a bit too much.Posted by: JM | December 26, 2006 at 12:54 PM
Rush Limbaugh aligns himself to ideology of radio poll ratings, I don’t.Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 08:34 AMI don’t listen to Limbaugh, don’t like his show, never did.
Posted by: Kansas | September 24, 2007 at 01:43 AM
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“COURT OF LAW”
it is not accepted by a court of law and under present EPA standards. At least not of a few years ago.Posted by: JM | January 20, 2007 at 01:04 PM
it’s not something I would do or that would be upheld in a court of law.Posted by: JM | January 20, 2007 at 02:00 PM
Nope Cosmos, it’s just like a court of law. You make a claim that my assertion is false, you have to prove it.Or…you can just slink away…which will prove your claim is BS. :)Posted by: Republican | April 09, 2007 at 10:13 PM
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HECTORING PEOPLE ABOUT THEIR DEGREES AND BRAGGING ABOUT HIS DEGREES
I am guessing you have never taken a collegiate paleotology, genology or any sort of earth science course at the collegiate level.Posted by: JM | January 08, 2007 at 03:06 PM
Come on Cosmos, Let’s have your degrees. I gave you mine. Now tell me yours.You have zero honor if you don’t.Posted by: JM | January 20, 2007 at 10:12 PM
Actually, I’ve take a couple of collge courses in Geology. Also taken several courses in using bio-environmental measuring equipment in detecting and am reasonably familiar with dissipation rates of ‘toxic’ gases in the atmosphere.
Posted by: JM | November 01, 2006 at 10:22 AM
I was a science major in college through my Master’s Degree.Posted by: StillJM | December 29, 2006 at 10:03 PM
I have mentioned as three or four times in the WE Blogs what I did and what my degrees were in . . .
If you can’t even acknowledge as something as simple as something as what my career was, then you’re not worth my time reading.Click, your on the no read list again.Posted by: StillJM | December 31, 2006 at 07:04 PM
You’re not faring well Cosmos, you’re arguing about science when you seem to be missing some basic education in it.Posted by: StillJM | December 31, 2006 at 07:40 PM
As I’ve said before, I’ve taken science classes, but my degree isn’t a science degree.
Watch as Cosmos avoids the question again…What is your education Cosmos?Posted by: Republican | April 22, 2007 at 02:24 PM
Are you a scientist Chas? So we should believe you on telling me what is or isn’t?Posted by: Kansas | August 10, 2007 at 11:30 PM
These words by cosmos are the words of a desperate man, seeking attention and the obvious lack of science in his background.Posted by: Kansas | September 16, 2007 at 05:40 PM
I doubt if you have any degrees cosmos, you’re sure don’t act like it.and,You are too scared to put your degrees if you have on the Blog that qualifies you as an expert on Global Warming.
I can talk about Medicine all day long, but it doesn’t make me a license Physician nor should I prescribe or diagnose anyone.You are playing “Doctor” cosmos and have zero room to talk on whose entitled to their opinion on a subject.Posted by: Kansas | August 08, 2007 at 06:22 PM
I do know more Science than cosmos as I had to take many science courses. My degrees are engineering, but with physical and natural sciences as a minor.I do know how to read and understand technical information when presented.Posted by: Kansas | September 13, 2007 at 04:13 PM
***********
GLOBAL WARMING NOT CAUSED BY HUMANS AND IT’S BETTER TO WAIT
I never said Global Warming was a myth. I am in a position that the effects of man-made carbon contributors is trivial when compared to the naturally occurring climate cycles that have been known to occur for millions of years.
Is there Global Warming? Yeah there is a trend. Is it caused by man? I see no evidence that man has influenced the climate.Posted by: JM | January 08, 2007 at 02:09 PM
I prefer to wait on Science to prove without a shadow of a doubt that man-made CO2 are the cause of global warming. The Global Warming science hasn’t made it to that level yet.
Posted by: JM | January 20, 2007 at 12:12 PM
The argument J R is that the Global Warming Support say without any hesitation that man-made emissions are the sole cause of Global Warming. Nothing else could be the cause.
I’m saying that is simply not true as there are many contributors to Global Warming. And all the Global Warming people want to do is create another tax, aka the Greenhouse tax.Posted by: JM | January 20, 2007 at 10:19 PM
For one, I never denied GW. I denied your version of GW and it is caused by your version of GW caused my man-made carbon producers.
Posted by: JM | January 21, 2007 at 10:55 PM
So we have global warming and it must be our fault, evil humans and SUVs.
So it is hotter on Earth than it has been for a while and the weather/climate is changing, it must be our fault!Posted by: James H. Macklin | January 23, 2007 at 05:01 AM
As I’ve said before, sure I believe in Climate Change as nature designed it. And I’m all for alternative energy, just not at the behest of the Kyoto Treaty or the UN. I want to be represented and not let US Tax dollars fly out of the country for something that cannot be fixedI’m happy with my stance on Climate Change and do not bow down to the GW alarmists. I prefer the calm and collected approach of Scientists who have worked on alternative energy plans for decades. I actually put my money into and don’t continually spout off about using other peoples money to do something. I use my money to do something.
Posted by: Republican | April 06, 2007 at 05:10 PM
***********
BOTH ARE DISABLED BY BACK INJURIES AND BOTH HAVE SOUGHT AND FAILED TO GET JOBS FROM KANSAS STATE GOV’T
Yes, I do get up in the middle of the night sometimes because of a back injury I received while on active duty. It keeps me awake sometimes. No, it wasn’t combat related, just some clumsy footwork on my part.Posted by: JM | January 21, 2007 at 10:24 PM
I guess you have to be severely disable to get hired? Lord knows Kansas and Wichita has completely ignored my VA disability for job preference since leaving the military. Guess there is not much of a market for an old, cripple guy with degrees.Posted by: JM | October 29, 2006 at 07:01 AM
I had a spine injury when I served and continued to take cautionary steps not to re-injure my back.
Posted by: Republikhan | March 11, 2007 at 09:05 PM
You just realize the prejudice there is on people seeking employment that are disabled.Posted by: Republican | June 30, 2007 at 11:32 PM
Even the State of Kansas won’t hire me because they would have to make accommodations. I’ve tried many times to get a job with the State of Kansas. They won’t even look at my application.
I suspect when they see disabled veteran, they ran as fast as they can away from my application.Posted by: Republican | June 30, 2007 at 11:25 PM
**********
“ARM FLAILING”
I think I’ve heard “arm flailing” for the first time from my father in the 1940s first before I heard it from Rush Limbaugh. My father was referring to my frustration on not getting the tractor started; all the while I was kicking the tractor and flailing my arms around. heh heh.Posted by: JM | December 26, 2006 at 12:54 PM
It’s a lot easier to flail your arms about and blame everyone else, isn’t WSClark?Posted by: JM | January 11, 2007 at 10:27 PM
Liberals get your shrill voices and arm flailing ready…it’s gonna explode…hehPosted by: JM | November 03, 2006 at 07:22 PM
Try some choreographed arm-flailing next time, it may help you make sense of your delusions.Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 09:42 AM
…more incoherent arm flailing by the CapnPosted by: Kansas | September 19, 2007 at 03:55 PM
The Libs on this blog are really arm flailing now, they can’t argue with facts presented to them. :)Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 01:00 PM
GORACLE arm flailing chimps like to think soPosted by: Kansas | September 18, 2007 at 03:35 PM
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SASQUATCH LIKE CREATURE
I am who I am, an ugly Sasquatch looking 60+ year old man. Happy now?Posted by: JM | February 09, 2007 at 02:37 PM
Let’s see how brave you are face to face with a sasquatch.That’s what I thought.Posted by: JM | February 09, 2007 at 04:03 PM
That’s right Chas, I’m an Australopithecus afarensis which came before the Neanderthal.
Our extra strong jaws are useful for chewing
Posted by: Republican | May 21, 2007 at 01:49 PM
*********
PLAGIARIZING
1. Here’s where Republican plagiarised his Henry’s law BS.Calculate the solubility of CO2 in water at atmospheric conditions if the solubility at 25oC and 1 atm is 0.034 mol/L. The partial pressure of CO2 in air is 0.00030 atm.
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~rogerlal/116_s07/chap13lec1.htmlHe wouldn’t know Henry’s law from Tom or Dick’s or Harry’s law.
2. Here’s where Republican cut-and-pasted his little blurb on Dante’s “Divine Comedy” without citation.
Republican wrote, “Dante uses the lion to denote sins of violence and ambition because the lion is considered to be an aggressive and assertive creature.”The lion has a tendency to satisfy his own needs, by whatever means necessary.”His unacknowledged source wrote,”. . . Dante uses the lion to denote sins of violence and ambition because the lion is considered to be an aggressive and assertive creature that has a tendency to satisfy his own needs, by whatever violent means necessary. ”
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/d/divine_interpretation_the_%20a_study_of_metaphor_in_dante’s_inferno.html
Lying and plagiarism are two forms of the same thing . . .
**********
BOTH USERS BANNED
Was going to trying to keep in touch while I am gone, but can’t use my own computer because WE Blog continues to block my IP after 2-3 months time. I hate using other people’s computer to make a message.
Anyway, I tried to write WE Blog to get an answer and I get this:Recipient:
Reason: No such user
It seems that they don’t want to be contacted. HehWell, I’m sure I’ll live without it. Was going to provide some photos of the area I’m going to, but if WE Blog doesn’t care then it doesn’t matter.Posted by: JM | February 08, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Naw, they can’t block posters, they can try, but there are ways around it.Posted by: JM | January 23, 2007 at 11:58 AM
E-mail from Philip Brownlee: The corporation did finally agree to block IP addresses, but warned that doing so often isn’t effective and could result in inadvertently blocking the wrong person. We decided to try it and had them block the worst troll on the blog beginning in mid-January.
I can’t log in here on typekey cosmos, because it uses an IP number as an identifier and that particular IP number was banned from the WE Blogs with no reason given.Posted by: Republican | July 18, 2007 at 05:15 PM
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MYSTERIES SURROUNDING HIS COMBAT STATUS WHEN INJURED
My injury occurred while I was on combat duty status over Iraq. Flack and missile parts flying through the air and not good for the human body.Posted by: Kansas | October 10, 2007 at 09:41 PM
Never said I was in the Army nor “fought” in Desert Storm. I was on active duty during Desert Storm.
Posted by: Kansas | July 16, 2007 at 08:31 PM
I dont know who got goofy on the Nic Stealing Kool Aid last nite, but I dont appreciate having mine stolen…. Please dont do it again…. This was NOT mine…
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/declare-victory.html#comment-86652760
Also, include with TIME OF POST evidence this one from last night:
Posted by: Kansas | October 17, 2007 at 01:40 AM
Some people take these forums way too seriously.
Cap you should probably get a life.
You are spending way too much time with the Blogs.
GOP Repub Facist Neoconservatives = very big government:
The Patriot Acthttp://www.google.com/search?q=against+the+patriot+act&revid=1556806427&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1=================Two Trillion Dollar War:http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1681119,00.htmlhttp://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html==================Reaganomicshttp://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2001/0301miller.htmlBush SS plan = really big governmenthttp://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2005/0505orr.html==================Homeland Security is a monsterhttp://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/corpwatch?q=Homeland+Security&is=corpwatch.org&x=22&y=1==================Bush Private Armyhttp://www.googlesyndicatedsearch.com/u/corpwatch?q=Blackwater+Inc&is=corpwatch.org&x=14&y=4
I know that correlation = causation only when it supports some conservative argument.
But when one has so many correlates, it does make you go Hmmmmmm?
Certainly does, Steven…
Capn getting it in while he can I see.
tick tick tick…
They’re friggin’ Nazis. That is, the cesspool that lurks in the human race. It’s always there.
Door King, wait till you hear what Cheney wants to do next… I heard last night, he is already working on his talking points and threats he can use to talk us into invading Iran… We need to be READY for the lies this time…
“Richard Heckler,Wal-Mart gives us what we want, cheap stuff. Why knock them for giving us what we want?
Posted by: Blue Maxx | October 17, 2007 at 06:04 AM”
BOYCOTT corporate america located abroad cuz the lions share of jobs have been sent abroad.
What is the CEO going to do? Lay off and/or fire himself and the BOD?
Ben Stein on True Heroes interviewed on Fox —- heard it all before, but he really makes the point. What surprised me about this is my brother (a far right wing conservative, who worships at the altar of Wall Street) sent it to me, having told me 2 years ago that he didn’t have much sympathy for soldiers because “…..hey they volunteered”
He’s so conservative he can’t understand why his wife no longer practices their Catholic Faith because of the priest sex scandals.
http://www.livevideo.com/video/A94A88F0EB36413782BC029B64AFE116/real-heroes.aspx
Posted by: CapnAmerica | October 17, 2007 at 06:45 AM
Good grief Capn stop this never-ending vendetta with Kansas.
There is no justification, for any reason, for any noble cause for you to fill the blog repeatedly with you dogpile of research on “outing” another poster.
Frankly, most adults do not care.
You are just wasting space and creating more scroll over for those who legitimately want to post and use the Eagle’s WEBLOG.
Move on guy.
Respectfully,
Kitrell
CC: Editor(PS: Vendetta is a great movie)
Kitrell
It takes 2 to tango —
Most of us long ago fell victim, because of the months long fueding here, to this adage:
“When you argue with idiots, shortly, people will not know which is which”
Wise post Ken.
But if either of them do a basic search on the web for “flame/flaming/trolls”, theywill determine that the best way to stop an argument…
Is not to have one in the first place.
Stop posting/replying to the flamer.
Any bets on which will be the better man and q.u.i.t. first?
My bet is the both cannot resist.
Kit Absolutely, very strong selfish egos there ………..
Well done Capn. Keep it up.
Capn America sure is obsessed with Kansas. Imagine the time it took to put that together. And to what end?
Bush now tied with Nixon for lowest popularity rating, it’s a horse race!
Is there a point in there somewhere Capn? Or is the point that you have no life?
Good God; will you and Kansas just get a room . . .
Cap’n you do yourself a disservice by engaging with others arguing about nonsensical issues.
Capn America sure is obsessed with Kansas. Imagine the time it took to put that together. And to what end?
Posted by: outlander | October 17, 2007 at 08:28 AMThe guy obviously has mental issues. Capn thinks he’s the Lib leader.
Limp-wrist loser.
Blue Maxx,
Now you add fuel to the fire?
Please. The regulars promised each other they were leaving.I thought maybe things would clean up while they are away.
(sigh)
And the attacks come a-rollin!! Yea!!! Sure!!! Right!!! Uh Huh… My goodness!!
Well I guess I get to add to my list on wishy-washy hillary:
Now she is against the $5,000 for every American baby.
But she added a caveat for the American people to consider:.,…………….”YOU CANNOT AFFORD ME”……
Bush now tied with Nixon for lowest popularity rating, it’s a horse race! Posted by: The Phantom
BAM!
Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday, and a new monthly index measuring the mood of Americans dipped.
A paltry 11 percent rated Congress positively, beating the previous low of 14 percent in July.
Wow, Gee, that was old news… Hillary did that last week!! I bet she just took it off the table until she can get the right wingers to shut up over health care for the young…
RE: JM = Kansas,
I posted my research for everyone to see without comment.
I now consider the matter closed, once and for all.
From now on, I will do my level best to completely ignore JM-Republikhansas, and any nics that I suspect he’s posting over.
And I will not respond to Graffiti Trolls or new nics until they prove themselves responsible members of the WEBlog.
Thank you for reading.
That is all.
I think C-Span is going to have the House Vote on the SCHIP veto over-ride about 9:30 on CSPAN
Bush Dead Enders:
Here’s what you’re supporting–
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/16/dad.blackwater/
BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — Haythem could only recognize his oldest boy from his tall and slim physique as well as what was left of his shoes. His son’s head had been blown away, his body charred beyond recognition. His wife of more than 20 years was torn apart.
“Only part of her neck and jaw remained,” Haythem told CNN. The rest of her was covered by a body bag.
Choking back tears, he said, “Killing them was not enough, blowing up their skulls, they burned them and disfigured them.”
Haythem’s wife, Mahassen, and his 20-year-old son, Ahmed, were among the 17 Iraqi civilians killed and 27 others wounded in a hail of gunfire September 16 in Baghdad.
…
All Haythem and the family know about the final moments of their loved ones is what two Iraqi police officers who witnessed the shootings have told them — that Ahmed was shot as he was driving his car in Nusoor Square and his mother clutched him tight as he was bleeding.Don’t Miss
“Those who witnessed the incident say that my son’s head was scattered and my wife held him and hugged him,” Haythem said. “She was screaming, ‘My son, my son! Help me! Help me!’ ”
*****
Oh, well. Dead Iraqis don’t run stop signs!
That article should be read at the next “fund the war” vote debate in both Senate and House… Might possibly wake them up…
Ya gotta wonder why China is all upset over that Buddhist leader from teeny tiny little Tibet… Like Tibet is SOO important to China???
Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.
Why are these political activist groups allowed to be 501(c)(3) non-profit groups!?!
They should pay taxes like everyone else.
Afterall, the NRA and the NRA-ILA are NOT allowed to be non-profit groups. At least the NRA pays taxes!
These Lefty Socialist Advocate Groups – advocating more social programs and higher taxes – DO NOT pay taxes themselves!
Hypocracy!
How dare Media Matters protect the American public from the lies of the right wing!
Tax them into bankrupcy!
It comes upu all the time here about whether our Citizens can expect some sort of “right” to health care… I would submit to all of you, that that very intent to health care of some sort, IS one of the “rights” our citizens can expect. It is contained in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States… There are several things that are stated as Provisions… Each of them is Capitalized…. Please note >>>
“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”
I found it of particular interest, that the words “common defense” are Not Capitalized… given all of the emphasis that defense has been made such a strong part of this President’s Administration.
Oh, that part about health care??? Note the Capitalized word, “Welfare”… preceded by the word “general”
Comments anyone???
And out comes the Graffitti Gang!
Not even Noon yet!! Mercy!!
Wow, Gee, that was old news… Hillary did that last week!! I bet she just took it off the table until she can get the right wingers to shut up over health care for the young…
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 09:01 AM
Chas also interpreted Obama’s comments about forming his own Kingdom on Earth.
Must be a mind reader or something.
That article should be read at the next “fund the war” vote debate in both Senate and House… Might possibly wake them up…
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 09:09 AM
The Democrats will NEVER keep their promise to end the war.
Nice to see things haven’t changed. Left hates the right and the right hates themselves. Any group that claims to represent the “moral highground” should be disbanded immediately. Lefties are too busy making sure everyone is happy instead of taking a stand. Righties are too busy lining their pockets to give a damn about anyone else. And they claim to have God on their side. I have been gone for a while now and its nice to come back and pick up as if I havent been gone at all.
And out comes the Graffitti Gang!
Not even Noon yet!! Mercy!!
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 09:50 AM
But not until AFTER you and yours started putting down posters who hold opposing view to you. Thanks for opening the door.
“Oh, that part about health care??? Note the Capitalized word, “Welfare”… preceded by the word “general”"Posted by: Chas.
Welfare:
1: the state of doing well especially in respect to good fortune, happiness, well-being, or prosperity
2 a: aid in the form of money or necessities for those in need b: an agency or program through which such aid is distributedfm Merriam-Webster
I don’t see that “welfare” has a direct link to “healthcare”. With or with capitals.
With or with capitals
Should be “with or without capitals
Good on ya, Mike.
What you say is all too true . . .
“I don’t see that “welfare” has a direct link to “healthcare”. With or with capitals.”
It’s only welfare when it benefits human beings. Otherwise, they call it corporate subsidies, or supply side trickle down, or some such nonsense.
Oh, that part about health care??? Note the Capitalized word, “Welfare”… preceded by the word “general”
Comments anyone???
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 09:49 AM
Health Insurance, hmmm, was that around in 1787? Food stamps, HUD and free housing, I doubt if the founders contemplated a Socialist society in 1787. The founders who ran government for 30 years after the Constitution was ratified certainly did not IMPLEMENT these Socialist programs.
http://members.tripod.com/~GOPcapitalist/constitution.html
Is Welfare Unconstitutional?Overview:
Until the New Deal era, a general acknowledgement that individual social welfare, more specifically the use of public monies for the purpose of charity by the national government, was unconstitutional on the national level prevailed in government. Charity was known not to be an enumerated power nor one reasonably implied by the “necessary and proper” clause and therefore considered unconstitutional. Yet around the time of the New Deal, government began overlooking this clear unconstitutionality. The Supreme Court temporarily checked this until the Court Packing Scandal led to pro-welfare rulings by an incapacitated court, fearing dismantling by FDR and therefore under duress, in 1937. Since then the use of public monies for charity, or social welfare, has expanded in what is reasonably termed direct defiance of the Constitution. This page will, using the three interpretive tools described above, demonstrate how today’s social welfare state remains in direct defiance of the United States Constitution.
In a time where we need to come together, need real leadership, we get this divisive bull****. People need to wake up and put their party mantra aside. We are at a crossroads in American history. War, failing economy, healthcare, and education are all issues that should be dear to us. Instead of finding common ground we smear children, lie about conditions, and point the finger at one another. We need leaders, solutions, and progress. Haven’t you people learned anything? Do you not see where if we do not get our sh** together our children and grandchildren are going pay the price? Put you petty differences aside and get to work. If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem. Ring any bells?
Does Congress have Unlimited Power to extort money from working Americans?
http://www.thepriceofliberty.org/05/09/02/greenslade.htm
These appropriations represent a small fraction of the money misappropriated each year in the name of the general welfare. According to Mathew Lesko, author of several best selling books, “[e]ach year the U.S. Congress appropriates over $1 TRILLION in government grants for people to use to help themselves and help the country.” On his website, he lists the following examples of the so-called “free money” available each year.
$627 to pay your phone bill
$1,250 to pay this month’s credit card bill or auto loans.
$5,000 to pay for acting, dancing or singing lessons.
$30,750 to pay for your education bills.
$50,000 to pay your business expenses.
$200,000 to work on your invention.
With all due respect to Mr. Lesko, this is not free government money. It is extorted every year from the American people under threat of fine and imprisonment to fund programs that do not bear any relationship to the constitutional functions of the federal government. In addition, none of these programs are general. Each and every one is local or particular. Since all these programs fall outside of the accepted definitions of the general welfare provision, the taxes being collected to fund them are simply legalized theft under the guise of constitutional government.
Wake-up America—the reprobates in Congress are stealing you blind and bankrupting the nation all in the name of the general welfare and the Supreme Court has made it almost impossible to stop them.
Absolutely, Mike.
Petty bickering is the way that entrenched power maintains the status quo.
*********
CIA AGENT: BUSH LIED US INTO WAR
http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-26/1192546509269060.xml&coll=7
KALAMAZOO — A retired CIA intelligence analyst told a Western Michigan University audience Monday that deliberately fabricated intelligence pushed the United States into invading Iraq.
Ray McGovern puts blame for what he called an unnecessary war on an executive branch focused on oil and Israel, on corporate-controlled media that don’t probe, and on lawmakers overly interested in their own political survival.
“The Bush regime came into office determined to have what they called regime change in Baghdad,” McGovern said.
It’s up to American citizens to agitate for change — even to the point of pressing lawmakers to pursue impeaching the president and vice president, said McGovern, who retired after 27 years in the CIA, serving administrations from John F. Kennedy’s to George H.W. Bush’s.
Max–
Calculate how much federal tax you pay each year.
I don’t think it’s in the neighborhood of 300,000 dollars.
MaxPlease keep in mind that Mr. Lesko sells books. If what he claimed was true, then I surely would not be working. I know alot of people that have purchased his books with no results. Let’s not get carried away with what some guy says to sell some books.
And thank you Capn. Good to be back!
A few thoughts: As I watch Cspan and hear the rhetoric for the updating of FISA. I wonder what exactly do they really think they are going to hear? Is the United States so full of terrorists that they really think that open listening to calls, reading e-mails will catch them? If they know just whom to be listening to it would not be a hard thing to get authorization. One Rep used the example of the soldiers kidnapped in Iraq as an example. Saying it took ten hours to get a warrant, this in Iraq? What in the world has Iraq got to do with listening in on calls in the U.S.? Our laws do not effect what is listen to and whom is spied on in Iraq.
It seems to me that making the laws lack in the United States is not going to effect the attempt to find terrorists. Unless you would know which call to listen into and who’s e-mails to read! Otherwise this is nothing more then a knee-jerk reaction and serves no purpose then to undermine the very freedoms that they are claiming to protect.
Another thought: The build up to justifying an attack upon Iran is going on, it is nothing more then what was done to justify the invasion of Iraq. Double negatives thoughts, “Because there is no proof that Iran is NOT planning to develop a Nuclear bomb. Then they must be planning to develop a Nuclear bomb!”.Though what is known is that so far those that have been given a chance to inspect their Facilities. ARE SAYING that there in no proof that they are developing a Nuclear weapon. In fact so far everyone that has seen their program is saying that they are doing exactly what they have been saying they are doing.AND just whom would they attack if they had a nuclear weapon? Israel? OK Iran has developed one bomb to Israel’s twenty five nuclear weapons. If they did manage to attack Israel, could they really expect that The United States would NOT attack them then? Pass it to terrorists? OK here they would be the only Moslem country in the region that now has the “BOMB”. Gee is that not worth more then the points they would have with what amounts to a very small group within the Moslem world? Al-Qaeda which BTW did not even call themselves that until they heard it during the trial of the bombers of our embassies in Africa. When the government witness said that was what Bin Laden’s group called itself. Had been stymied that their actions had not cause a Middle east wide upraising of Islamic through the world.
While watching a BBC documentary called “The power of Nightmares” they mentioned something that rang a bell. Bin Laden is actually nothing more then a rich benefactor, he does not do the planning and his only approval is supplying the money. That caused me to remember several years ago that I was actually critical of the Bush administration for seeing him as nothing more then a money man. After the fall of the Soviets the Neocons needed an enemy to rally the American public against. Along came Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda, YES they do mean to do us harm but we by our actions are the ones giving him his status and power.It is self fulfilling prophecy, like the Kennedy assassination, we just could not believe that 19 individuals acting by themselves could have done 9-11. There had to be a large well organized group behind it, even a nation’s support. I mean there has to be! otherwise it is possible for a lone gunman to kill the most powerful man on earth right?
“With all due respect to Mr. Lesko, this is not free government money.”
No shit. Even Lesko doesnt say that. He says it is FREE MONEY, not free government money.
Since I actually OWN a copy of his book, I can tell you most of it is crap. Been there, done that on behalf of my clients.
In fact, whenever someone brought up lesko, I told my clients if ANY of them got free money using lesko’s book, I would PERSONALLY match the money from my own pocket.
I’ve yet to pay out a dime…
PT Barnum was right.
But hey, you could always stuff envelopes at home…
Capn – Who said I paid $300,000?
Is that what you pay?
Ya know, some of this constitutional crap being posted today is AWFULLY close to what the Posse Comitatus guys say.
Notice the rash irrational reaction by the Socialists, when their FREE MONEY TRAIN is threatened.
The Lib’s can’t stand the light of scrutiny, on their petty lil agrument for Socialism.
You Libs can’t just throw out the Welfare Clause, and expect hard-working American taxpayers to accept this as a basis for Government to have unlimited powers to tax and redistribute wealth, without a more thorough examination.
Of course you LIBS do NOT want a more thorough discussion, because you cannot support a legal argument for your Socialist cause.
…and like usual, Kansas closes the barn door AFTER the horses have gone. We are pursuing ethanol uber alles at the same time the market is TANKING.
Without subsidies that is. Ya know, ethanol is a sweet deal as long as YOUR TAX DOLLARS subsidize not only the plants, but the grains that feed them.
Thank governor leadership, mark parkinson, and their boy joe harkins for devoting our water and state resources to this fool’s gold.
http://www.farmprogress.com/http://www.farmprogress.com/
Compiled By Staff October 17, 2007A combination of high corn prices and low ethanol prices is what led to a decision to delay construction of a 55 million gallon ethanol plant in Erskine, Minn., according to Don Sargeant, president of Aggassiz Energy.
Sargeant says the company will start construction if there is a rebound in the price of ethanol. November ethanol futures are 40 cents lower than April’s $2.00 and though a record corn crop is being harvested, prices remain high.
Aggassiz is not the first company to suspend construction due to current market conditions. Earlier this month VeraSun Energy Corp. stopped construction on a 110 gallon ethanol facility in Reynolds, Ind. BioFuel Energy Corp. put plans on hold for a third ethanol facility, and according to the Grand Forks Herald, Alchem Ltd. announced that they were suspending operations until corn and ethanol prices improved.
Max, if you want a more thorough discussion, please respond to our POINTS. Like the free money thing. It’s a lie, and you know it. But now you change the subject.
Yes, please, let’s have a more thorough discussion.
Oh, and btw, you bushites, cons and theocrats have control of the supremes right now.
Can we expect you and yours to get that social welfare clause thing straightend out while YOUR guys are in charge?
Max- Do you honestly believe that anyone that disagrees with you, for whatever reason, is accurately described by your 10:47 rant. It the world really truly that either-or?
Oh, and in the interests of a more thorough discussion…
“These appropriations represent a small fraction of the money misappropriated each year in the name of the general welfare.”
Could you enlighten us on how the republican controlled congress dealt with this issue? Did they stop these “misappropriations”?
Or will it be the fault of the democrats? Taking all bets…
FDR screwed the Welfare Clause up 75 years ago farmgirl.
It’s gonna take a long time to fix that. May not be fixed for 30 or more years.
(Hillary could fix the problem sooner by exponentially increasing the flow of Socialist gravy – it will run out faster if she’s allowed to have her way!)
The problem will be fixed when the gravy for your gravy train runs out.
That WILL happen during the life time of my kids.
Course farmgirl, you wouldn’t care about the generations to follow.
Hey JR, did you see this?
And WE eat this crap that the world market rejects?
http://www.kansas.com/business/updates/story/202835.html
But of course in joe williams world… too much regulaton and liability are the cause of America’s problems in the world markets.
Taking all bets…Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 17, 2007 at 10:54 AM
I’d throw in five bucks, but my welfare check is late.
Ok Max, so I guess we will put you down for “no” on “more thorough discussions”.
When you run out of substance you just rant.
Please rant away. You make my points for me so well.
Heeeeeeeee Tom!
Max, if you want a more thorough discussion, please respond to our POINTS. Like the free money thing. It’s a lie, and you know it. But now you change the subject.
Yes, please, let’s have a more thorough discussion.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 17, 2007 at 10:50 AM
Oh farmgirl, did you make a point, or are you just full of crap?
Like this one:
Since I actually OWN a copy of his book, I can tell you most of it is crap.
Or this one:
Ya know, some of this constitutional crap being posted today is AWFULLY close to what the Posse Comitatus guys say.
Have to agree with another poster today, there’s no point in debating anything with you farmgirl.
“…this constitutional crap being posted today is AWFULLY close to what the Posse Comitatus guys say.”
You apparently haven’t heard, Max is lifelong member of the Unmarked Black Helicopter club. He knows that this little codes on the back of stop signs will be how the United Nations will divide up our country once they take over.
heee hee hee hee…
Is germie giving you all lessons on how to stomp off when handed your ass?
Since you are clearly NOT going to address the points, I agree. There is no debate here. Just you showing your ass and throwing a fit when it’s handed to you.
Ok you win. No one can disagree or point out when you are flat wrong.
I wont wait for your acknowledgement that you are wrong.
Please continue ranting.
heheheheh
“You apparently haven’t heard, Max is lifelong member of the Unmarked Black Helicopter club.”
I kinda figured that with his/her affinity for big guns and fear of the boogy man. The Posse rhetoric just sealed it.
Earlier this month VeraSun Energy Corp. stopped construction on a 110 gallon ethanol facility in Reynolds, Ind. BioFuel Energy Corp.
Did they plan to move it in a souped up Dodge coupe?
Worried about antagonizing Turkish leaders, House members from both parties have begun to withdraw their support from a resolution backed by the Democratic leadership that would condemn as genocide the mass killings of Armenians nearly a century ago.http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/washington/17cong.html?em&ex=1192766400&en=73b02108b0f5b420&ei=5087
Time to let this foolishness go. When this goes down in flames, could Congress get down to some business that benefits this country?
“Course farmgirl, you wouldn’t care about the generations to follow.”
I’m still laughing about this. Reminds me of a song. “my nose runs, my feet smell, and I dont love jesus”. Guess that makes me wrong about the facts.
heh. I’m not the one who’s in denial about humans and global warming.
It has become something of a cliche: politicians launching their electoral campaigns on late-night talk shows, in a calculated attempt at hipness.
But a late-night comic announcing his presidential candidacy on a late-night talk show – now that is a hall-of-mirrors maneuver worthy of Stephen Colbert. The man known to viewers for his portrayal of a fulminating right-wing blowhard said on Comedy Central on Tuesday night that he will be a candidate in his native South Carolina.http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_7200678?nclick_check=1
This guy is the perfect candidate. He’s a Democrat, but he can probably fool half of republicans into thinking he’s one of them.
The Framers Speak:
Long has it been acknowledged that Congress’s powers were limited as described above by Article I, Section 8. Here the framers acknowledge this Section as a limiting factor, proving that today’s misinterpretations, which allow full justification for practically anything Congress desires to do under the guise of this often misread and forgotten section, are both erronious and absurdly illogical.
Proof of intentional and strict limitations on the authority and power of Congress:
“[Congressional jurisdiction of power] is limited to certain enumerated objects, which concern all the members of the republic, but which are not to be attained by the separate provisions of any.” – James Madison, Federalist 14
“The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined . . . to be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce.” – James Madison, Federalist 45
“If Congress can do whatever in their discretion can be done by money, and will promote the General Welfare, the Government is no longer a limited one, possessing enumerated powers, but
an indefinite one, subject to particular exceptions.” – James Madison, 1792
Note the reference to “General Welfare.” Please do not confuse this with “social welfare” as we know it today, or public charity. The two are distinctly different as will be addressed later in detail
“The Constitution allows only the means which are ‘necessary,’ not those which are merely ‘convenient,’ for effecting the enumerated powers. If such a latitude of construction be allowed to this phrase as to give any non-enumerated power, it will go to every one, for there is not one which ingenuity may not torture into a convenience in some instance or other, to some one of so long a list of enumerated powers. It would swallow up all the delegated powers, and reduce the whole to one power, as before observed” – Thomas Jefferson, 1791
“Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1798
There we have it! Proof that both the Father of the Constitution and unquestionably our nation’s foremost expert on the Constitution, James Madison, AND the Father of American Independence, Thomas Jefferson, specifically acknowledging Congressional powers to be strictly limited and defined – quite a long shot from today!
YAYYYYY
Steven for Pres.!
What say you Max?
Government repression in some countries has shifted from journalists to bloggers, with the vitality of the Internet triggering a more focused crackdown as blogs increasingly take the place of mainstream news media, according to Lucie Morillon, Washington director of the advocacy group Reporters Without Borders.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/16/AR2007101601843.html?hpid=sec-tech
Be careful what you wish for.
“…AWFULLY close to what the Posse Comitatus guys say.”
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 17, 2007 at 10:36 AM
==============================
Yes, KFG, I’ve noticed that a lot recently… more so than earlier this year…. The Posse “guys” are very scary people… I’ve had occasion to do some first hand research on some of their groups… one of which is out around Dodge City… another one in Nebraska — VERY scary people… especially when they have their own armed guards outside whatever building they are meeting in… (armed with rifles and shotguns)…
Somebody said up thread that I was attacking posters… I have not attacked one person on this Blog all day… by INTENT… But, I have been attacked as usual… NOT what I have posted, but attack on ME… Thats the part I fail to understand!!
Bush at 24% approval in the latest Zogby.
I can’t imagine how 1/4 of the people in America could be that stupid.
It gives me hope, bloggus: I thought that 30 percent of the people in the U.S. were Nazis. Still, public opinions is like wind. It blows this way and that and seldom does much.
But not until AFTER you and yours started putting down posters who hold opposing view to you. Thanks for opening the door.
Posted by: Graffitti Gang member 209 | October 17, 2007 at 10:06 AM
=============================
You want to show us where I have put down any poster here today??
What I might have been tempted to do, and what I have done, are not one and the same…
========================
I don’t see that “welfare” has a direct link to “healthcare”. With or with capitals.
Posted by: Hud | October 17, 2007 at 10:06 AM
=============================
HUD — Are you attempting to argue with the Preamble to the Constituition??
The Constitution Preamble states that among the things the Constitution is intended to do, includes the “general Welfare” of the people.
How can any of us make the assumption that a part of the “general Welfare” of a People is their Health???
How can any of us make the assumption that a part of the “general Welfare” of a People is their Health???
Correction: How can any of us make the assumption that a part of the “general Welfare” of a People is NOT about their Health???
Thank you.
Well Chas, you know, the only health some people care about is the health of their own wallet.
Door King,
Polls that break down George’s approval into “strongly approve” and “somewhat approve” consistently have the “strongly approve” (true believers) hovering between 12-15%.
I figure the “somewhat approve” responders are people who simply aren’t paying attention.
BAM!
Reuters/Zogby poll released on Wednesday, and a new monthly index measuring the mood of Americans dipped.
A paltry 11 percent rated Congress positively, beating the previous low of 14 percent in July.
BAM! BAM!
How can any of us make the assumption that a part of the “general Welfare” of a People is NOT about their Health???Posted by: Chas.
Would not want to argue that. Just that the word “welfare” has a different meaning than the term “welfare”.
“Welfare in today’s context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.”http://www.usconstitution.net/glossary.html
What’s the point of all the posts on poll ratings?
Suffice it to say that most Americans think Bush sucks and congress sucks.
I’ll admit I fall under the population who say they both suck.
Any democrat leaning posters willing to admit or agree with me?
“Any democrat leaning posters willing to admit or agree with me?”
I will. The rollover Dems have been a huge disappointment.
I know that arguing with auto-”Socialist!” Max is like screaming at a brick wall, but. . .Max, you might try READING some of those enumerated powers.
I don’t have time to post more (I’ll actually welcome the boycott, hehe!).
And also–don’t forget the 14th amendment–it was 80 years later, but it’s part of the Constitution too, you know.
All this talk about the constitution and general welfare meaning health.
The federal government already does what needs to be done to meet this requirement.
Out of 300 million Americans, at least 85% HAVE some form of healthcare. The percentage is probably higher as it has been demonstrated that a large portion of the 47 million without healthcare are illegal immigrants or decide NOT to pay for coverage which is AVAILABLE. And all of them must be seen in an emergency room situation.
I’d say the government is doing what it should be doing – “looking out for”.
It doesn’t SAY the government should PAY FOR our HEALTHCARE does it? If that’s the case, I want a REFUND for all my medical expenses (glasses, dental, orthopedics, natal, nose job, fat cell removal) that I have paid.
Additionally, I want what my parents paid for us five kids.
And I think all the way back to Ben Franklin, George Washington (even though it was quack medicine) deserve a refund! All their families!
My goodness! I wonder why our founding fathers did not think of this?
I suppose since the subject was kinda-sorta raised, I have to agree with something Max posted earlier: and I’ve been saying OVER and OVER: Congress controls the funds; appropriations start in the House.
I can already see the attacks (”they’re abandoning the troops! etc.), but the only way to end this war on Bush’s watch is to force him to find some other way to fund it (Don’t laugh: anyone remember Iran-Contra?).
Let’s look at ALL of it, ok???
“welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being. [
===============================”Welfare in today’s context **also** means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance.”
** Emphasis **
The FIRST meaning clearly includes health among other items…
At the time the Constitution was ratified, please be very certain that there was a great concern for the poor, and for those who were in need of public assistance.
We didnt somehow inherit a need of public assistance with the Market Crash of 1929, and the resultant Depression…
WHY would you not want to include the “health” of the people to be included in the meaning of “general Welfare” of the people as stated in the Preamble??
I just dont see how you can separate it out, because today it means concern for the poor, and public assistance…
See, I remember reading much that was done in that time frame for people needing public assistance, and people who were poor. Of course, those people were normally cared for predominantly by the churches of the time… but I definitely believe that the Framers had the “general Welfare” of all the people in mind… (except for the slaves, and the “savages” – as they called them then)
“It doesn’t SAY the government should PAY FOR our HEALTHCARE does it?” — American Way –
No… And nobody is saying that now, if you would but read what has been proposed… ok?
I will leave you all to ponder the thoughts of our Framers… who did all that they could do in their time, to look into a future time, where they would no longer be…
I highly suggest that WE learn how to look at that same kind of future, instead of being so stuck on ourselves, and our OWN brief life spans on this planet…
Thanks!!
And one other thought….
As I read the front page of the Eagle this morning, I reflected about what was being said about some of the needs of our young people… And yes, it really does take the whole village to raise our children!!
If you disagree, fine… Attack what is Posted.. and not the Poster…. Thank you all!!
No… And nobody is saying that now, if you would but read what has been proposed… ok?Posted by: Chas.
Chas., I think I have read what has been proposed. And what I am reading is that some will receive healthcare free or at a reduced rate. Is that not the same as the Government paying for healthcare?
By your posting does not the Constitution say “promote the general Welfare” not provide the general Welfare? Last I had track “promote” does not mean pay.
And yes, it really does take the whole village to raise our children!!
Darn! I always thought my parents did just fine. But then, my kids are grown and out of the house and self-reliant.
I didn’t have a village. Where did we go wrong?
No… And nobody is saying that now, if you would but read what has been proposed… ok?
Posted by: Chas.
Come on Chas.!! There must be something FREE hidden in your post somewhere.
There has to be some FREE MONEY in here somewhere. I’m trying to count to ten, but I know I would be for it if there was no FREE MONEY involved. You know how I always want my FREE MONEY.
Hillary=proposal=entitlement=$
The formula never changes. In fact Hillary just told us:
“YOU CAN’T AFFORD ME!”
How can you possibly have socialized medicine if the government is not paying for it.
Don’t let me miss anything I can have for FREE.
Thanks Chas.!
American Way,
No village? There weren’t other instructors in your life or in your children’s lives? No grandparents, uncles, aunts, Sunday School teachers, teachers, neighbors…
I guess not.
HUD — Just a couple of thoughts… then I have some appointments… Promote CAN mean to pay for… IF you want to promote a heavyweight fight, it will cost you some money… IF you want to promote a sales pitch to a business, it will cost you something…
Second — Only 1.5% of our Federal Budget is used for welfare programs… just 1.5%…. And yes, if there are some people who are needy, and cannot afford care, I cant help but feel it is better to get them some health care, than to just tell them to go find a corner and die…
And to me, that is the risk we take if we refuse to pay for those who cannot afford to pay for their own health care… It can be to our great advantage as a nation… and as a people…
We never know at the moment, when one of those extremely needy people might grow up to be a doctor or a scientist that will discover new ways of healing others…
Or, one of them could even grow up to be a member of Congress, or the Supreme Court, or even President…
So, I think for the extremely low percentage of what our Federal Budget allocates to welfare programs… 1.5%… it is well worth the expense… What is NOT worth the expense, is when the system becomes corrupt…
The corruption of the system can very rarely be attributed to recipients of the programs… but to those who administer those programs… They are the ones who make determinations, and qualify people to be recipients…
Maybe that helps…
Take your choice, AM–either pay thru the nose to keep the drug companies, insurance companies, and medical equipment providers wealthy–all while doctors and patients get squeezed. . . .
. . or you can pay thru taxes, and set up system where not only are costs are reduced, but the NEED for expensive actions is reduced, as you have more people maintaining their health, instead of waiting until minor conditions turn into serious ones.
The argument, of course, isn’t about “free money” at all–that’s just moronic–but, untimately, an objection to progressive taxation. You don’t want YOUR taxes–your money–helping anyone else–right?
“How can you possibly have socialized medicine if the government is not paying for it.”– Amer. Way –
The government might well subsidize medical care… But Socialism would never assume the entire payment for medical/health care… It doesnt do that in any country NOW that has Socialized Medicine(your term)…
The term is properly referred to as Universal Health Care… NOT Socialized Medicine… Please check your definitions of Socialism… Thank you…
What premium amount do you expect to pay each month Chas?
Max, I dont believe anybody has yet made that determination… BUT, I have only seen proposals so far that say if you dont WANT the government subsidized version, you are more than free to keep what you already have… What is there that is difficult to understand about that one little talking point that is always thrown out in a discussion???
Very simply — NOBODY has said that you HAVE to have a government subsidized health program, UNLESS YOU want it!!
Simple enough??
Gotta go for now… be back later… And isnt it nice to be able to see open discussion, and nobody attacking individuals???
Yipppeeeee!!!!
I agree, Chas. I don’t see anything wrong with a little sharp-edged banter, but there’s a bit of a difference between that and strict ad homs.
I’ll add my yippee! as well.
What do you expect to pay for a HillaryCare! premium Socialist?
Answer: Zero.
“What do you expect to pay for a HillaryCare! premium Socialist?
Answer: Zero.”
Cool! I want my OWN pet Socialist!
What you do feed them? Are they expensive to maintain? Do they do tricks?
1992 and 1996 All Over Again
After Clinton was elected twice, for the first time I accepted the fact that America has become a bunch of deadbeat Socialists, who want Someone Else to pay their way in life. This blog just confirms that fact.
So, if Hillary becomes our next President, I will either retire early, or cut-back to part-time to ensure I am in the income bracket that will get all of that free stuff from Government.
If you are above that special income bracket, you will be the real dogs of America, working for everyone else. And I’m tired of working hard and playing by the rules, just to pay high taxes to feed those holding out their tin cups.
And when 1/2 the working people retire or cut-back, Hillary will have to wave her magic wand OR find somebody else to do the work that needs to be done to support deadbeat Americans. I’m no longer going to be: Somebody Else.
Where do I find my tin cup?
Well, Max, according to Hillary herself, You would not be required to pay anything for the plan she proposes, unless you want to have that plan… Simple??
Now, as to this Socialist problem you appear to have all the time… Let me just pose a few questions… Not questions aimed at You, Max, but to all of us…
Who is it that pays for OUR Social Security??
Answer: Those coming after us… We of course pay for those who have gone ahead of us… That is a type of “socialized” financial assistance…
How are are streets and highways paid for??
Answer: Our tax dollars… ALL of our tax dollars… Some pay more taxes than others.. But ALL have equal access to the streets and highways…
How are our fire departments paid for (including vol. depts)??
Answer: Through tax dollars… ALL of our tax dollars… which some pay more than others… Yet, if your house, or my house catches fire, we are both equally covered for protection by our local fire department… a sort of “socialized” fire protection…
I think you get the idea… I dont need to take it out any farther than that…
Those are all items that we have NO say over… Yet, all have equal access to each one…
Now, my question:
Why does it bother you so much to be possibly… underscore possibly… providing some few dollars out of your taxes, to cover a catastrophic illness, or emergency surgery, or some child’s heath care somewhere down the line??
You have others who will be paying, and are paying, for certain benefits you have in your community now, and for what you will receive in social security when you retire…
Because what you pay into Social Security now, is already paying for somebody else…
And I am sure that whatever we pay into Medicare, also is used by others, as well as what we might use of Medicare is also paid for by others as well…
And further, we may well get a benefit greater than somebody else our same age… Just as those older than us now, are getting benefits according to what they have earned, and paid in…
Comments??
Well, Max, according to Hillary herself, You would not be required to pay anything for the plan she proposes, unless you want to have that plan… Simple??
Now, as to this Socialist problem you appear to have all the time… Let me just pose a few questions… Not questions aimed at You, Max, but to all of us…
Who is it that pays for OUR Social Security??
Answer: Those coming after us… We of course pay for those who have gone ahead of us… That is a type of “socialized” financial assistance…
How are are streets and highways paid for??
Answer: Our tax dollars… ALL of our tax dollars… Some pay more taxes than others.. But ALL have equal access to the streets and highways…
How are our fire departments paid for (including vol. depts)??
Answer: Through tax dollars… ALL of our tax dollars… which some pay more than others… Yet, if your house, or my house catches fire, we are both equally covered for protection by our local fire department… a sort of “socialized” fire protection…
I think you get the idea… I dont need to take it out any farther than that…
Those are all items that we have NO say over… Yet, all have equal access to each one…
Now, my question:
Why does it bother you so much to be possibly… underscore possibly… providing some few dollars out of your taxes, to cover a catastrophic illness, or emergency surgery, or some child’s heath care somewhere down the line??
You have others who will be paying, and are paying, for certain benefits you have in your community now, and for what you will receive in social security when you retire…
Because what you pay into Social Security now, is already paying for somebody else…
And I am sure that whatever we pay into Medicare, also is used by others, as well as what we might use of Medicare is also paid for by others as well…
And further, we may well get a benefit greater than somebody else our same age… Just as those older than us now, are getting benefits according to what they have earned, and paid in…
Comments??
Ooops so sorry for the double post… i lost the chat screen when i clicked post… strange
Are they expensive to maintain? Do they do tricks?
Posted by: Rage | October 17, 2007 at 02:17 PM
=============================Rage — I think they cost about the same as a Wallaby LOL
OK now I am running late… be back later!!! Let’s make this thing work, ok??? Later all!!
United Socialist States of America
Of all people who file income tax returns, the top 10% pay 67.67% (that’s 2/3!) of ALL income taxes!
I wonder what their fair share of the total income tax is?
The bottom 50% of all income tax filers only pay 3.5% of all taxes.
……………Income …Tax Share
Top 1%___>$363,905___36.73%
Top 5%___>$142,975___56.23%
Top 10%__>$100,957___67.67%
Top 50%__> $29,899___96.60%
Bottom50%______< $29,899____3.40%
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/04in07tr.xls
I am not gay:
http://www.crackle.com/c/Moving_Targets/Sen._Craig’s_New_Music_Video/2048231/#ml=o%3D12%26fpl%3D184495%26fx%3D
When Hillary expands her Socialism programs, how much more money is she gonna take from the top brackets?
The Top 1% already pays for 1/3 of us.
The Top 10% already pays for 2/3 of us.
The Top 1/2 already pays for 97% of us.
And what’s gonna happen when those in the top brackets retire and drop their taxable income drastically to avoid Hillary’s outrageous record tax increases?
Uh huh yeah Max
Why don’t you put up a stat on the distribution of wealth in America? The reallity I mean not the verb sense you so worry about.
A paltry few have an awful lot.
Wealthy white men of property that the founders were, I don’t think The United Feudal States of America was their ambition.
http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single_payer_system_cost.php
In the model presented in this paper, it is assumed that in the first year after implementing a universal, single-payer plan, total national health expenditures are unchanged from baseline. If expenditures were higher than baseline in the first few years, then additional revenues above those described here would be needed. However, these higher costs would be more than offset by savings which would accrue within the first decade of the program.”
Universal coverage could be financed with a 7 percent payroll tax, a 2 percent income tax, and current federal payments for Medicare, Medicaid, and other state and federal government insurance programs. A 2 percent income tax would offset all other out-of-pocket health spending for individuals. “For the typical, middle income household, taxes would rise by $731 annually. For fully 60% of households, the increase would average about $1,600…costs would be redistributed from the sick to the healthy, from the low and middle-income house-holds to those with higher incomes, and from businesses currently providing health benefits to those that do not.
“Even more important, greater efficiency and improved cost containment would become possible, leading to sizable savings in the future. The impediment to fundamental reform in health care financing is not economic, but political. Political will, not economic expertise, is what will bring about this important change.”
“Universal Coverage: How Do We Pay For It?” — Edie Rasell, M.D. PhD).
300 million Americans will be brought into WW lll because Israel can’t stop pissing people off?
Bush warns nuclear Iran could spur ‘World War III’
By Haaretz Service and News Agencies
“United States President George W. Bush on Wednesday warned that a nuclear-armed Iran could lead to a third world war because of the Islamic
state’s determination to destroy Israel.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/914036.html
Read it yourself…He’s smiling!
He’s also nuts!
So if I drop my earned income below $30,000, I won’t pay any taxes and I’ll qualify for a ton of government programs!
If I move to an acreage and retire as a hobby farmer with maybe $10,000 in earned taxable income, I can get:
Free HillaryCare!
Food stamps.
Heating assistance.
Farm/crop subsidies.
Tree planting credits. (From planting some apple trees on farmland the Gov’t will give me free trees, and credits for conserving the environment!)
Windmill credits (I’ll generate 90% of my power from a $25,000 windmill, that will be purchased with Gov’t credits)
Hybrid Car Credit (I’ll buy a new Hybrid car)
Farm Pond Credits (I’ll put in a pond and stock it with free fish from the state hatchery, and get some more conservation credits)
“Working” on the hobby farm and fishing every day will be my “job”. In season, I’ll go hunting too! And the Government will pay me to do it.
My bottom line will improve by decreasing taxes paid to 0, decreasing health care premiums to 0, and getting all this free Gov’t stuff.
Ok, I can become a Socialist too!
Max… ummmm… you posted a Tax scale, of sorts… Universal Health Care would not be figured on that basis — See, those top end people arent going to need a program other than what they already have… Most of the middle part of that wont need a new plan… What does it take to make you understand that you most likely wont pay any more into income tax than you already pay…
The President of the United States should be very careful in what he says. To utter the words “WWlll” is bad enough, but to suggest it is away over-the-top.
He is signaling Israel to make atomic war.
Is there no end to this fool?
Max?? Please read up on your definitions of Socialism… Nothing that you describe on this Blog as Socialism is Socialism…
Do you think everybody in Canada makes the same salaries??? or in England??? or in France??? or in Germany??? or any other Socialist country?? Think again!
Just please go read up on your definitions of Socialism…. I really think you will get a better understanding of it… And I also think you will realize that we do not now have a socialist system here, and we are not likely to have such a system any time in your or my lifetime..
Is the man holding you down JR?
Is the man not paying his fair share?
Is your $500 in annual income taxes paid too high? (More then Offset by your Unearned Income Credit)
Yes, we need more Socialism JR, cause you can’t earn money on your own. It’s not only the fact that you don’t try, you’re incapable even if you did try!
Don’t worry, be happy. Hillary is coming to save the day for you.
Ed — Bush is getting VERY scary… As is Cheney…
Max, ya just ruined the whole darned day!!
http://news.yahoo.com/edcartoons/mikeluckovich;_ylt=AhH8YedUPI9EVCetf.ZyeetQ_b4F
Max… Ummm… The top 10% that you say pays for 2/3 of us… They dont automatically move into non-taxable income just because they retire… If the income keeps hitting the bank account, it will be taxed at the appropriate rate… The lower half has more chance of avoiding income tax than the upper 10% on retirement
Chas, you’ve failed to define it yourself.
It’s been defined here several times.
so·cial·ism Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.
Compare utopian socialism.
———————————————–so·cial·ism (s?’sh?-l?z’?m) Pronunciation Key
n.
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
———————————————socialism
noun
1. a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
2. an economic system based on state ownership of capital [ant: capitalism]
——————————————-SocialismFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaSocialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community[1] for the purposes of increasing social and economic equality and cooperation. This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers’ councils—or indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.
What does it take to make you understand that you most likely wont pay any more into income tax than you already pay…Posted by: Chas.
Chas., I think it has to do with something you said, “Hillary says…”
She does not have a plan. It is an outline of a plan to be put together later. For my part there are parts of her outline that just will not work; therefore, the proposed system will not pay for itself.
Do you really believe businesses will continue to offer insurance coverage better that what the Government offers? I will bet that most businesses would drop their coverage to the same thing offered by the Government.
JR,
Do you think that there is only a set “X” amount of wealth in the world?
And that the only way you are going to get any is if it is taken from someone with alot of it?
Is it Neil Bortz who says that if you don’t like wealthy people go get a job from a poor person?
There is no government insurance plan that has 100 percent health care coverage. Even retired military must have health insurance which doesn’t always pay all the costs, in fact in my case, it rarely does.
I remember when there was a Doctor shortage at McConnell, there was like a 2-3 month wait to see a Doctor. I can very well imagine if the same system applied to local hospitals was taxed by 10 times the population – the wait would be much longer.
Think it’s not important? Wait until you have a non-emergency condition that requires you to see a physician.
“As an economic system, socialism is often characterized by socialized (state or community) ownership of the means of production.”
Right. Now show us where anyone said anything about government controlling the means of production.
As I recall, the Chrysler bailout didn’t come with attached strings. And the no-bid contracts for Cheney’s Halliburton don’t hand control of their facilities over to the DoD.
Well, Max?
Rage — the last 6 years, it seems like the means of production sort of runs the government.. But that is a diffrent definition altogether :-)
The only things we have that can really be called socialist in terms of government (or taxes) covering it, would be streets and highways; fire and police protection; and military…
Well, off and running again… later all!!
United Socialist States of America
NEW and IMPROVED! Now Even MORE Socialist in 2005 then in 2004!
(Updated Stats – 2005. 2004 Stats posted previously)
Of all people who file income tax returns, the top 10% pay 70.30% (that’s more than 2/3!) of ALL income taxes!
I wonder what their fair share of the total income tax is?
The bottom 50% of all income tax filers only pay 3.07% of all taxes.
……………Income …Tax Share
Top 1%___>$364,657___39.38%Top 5%___>$145,283___59.67%Top 10%__>$103,912___70.30%Top 25%__> $62,068___85.99%Top 50%__> $30,881___96.93%Bottom50%______< $30,881____3.07%
Nathan
or Max
Our system is HEAVILY weighted that the have nots pretty much remain the have nots at the mercy and discretion for the haves.
And it is getting worse.
Have you not considered?
YOU fear a homogenized society where everyone has about the same.
BUT in your fear, youare running headlong to the same place with a different face.
How has the “free market” treated small biz the last 25 years or so?
Now I can’t play for long ’cause I gotta go to a conference at the school.
The free market is not ALWAYS the best thing.
Apple/PC Betamax/VHS Walmart/everything….
Link for 2005 IRS stats:
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls
Oh and Nathan?
The “jobs from a poor man” bit?
Maybe I don’t want a job from a rich man.
Maybe I wanna work for me.
“Rage — the last 6 years, it seems like the means of production sort of runs the government.. But that is a diffrent definition altogether :-)”
An astute obsevation, as well, Chas. . . amazing how worried about socialism some people are, when full-fledged corporatism is more the reality.
Oh, the Free Market is not perfect, but it is the best model out there.
It’s also not Free, it’s heavily regulated and there are regulated monopolies out there.
You want to see what happens to productivity in America under Socialism? It will be very sad if/when that happens.
Without the profit incentive for hard work, I wasn’t kidding above, there will be many like me who will simply slow down and join the big Socialist party crowd. No more hard work from me, or anyone else.
Party time!
You sure don’t have a lot of regard for your fellow Americans there Max.
Rage said it better than me.
In your fear to create a nation of layabouts you are building a nation of….
employees.
It’s ok. It’s my old conservative roots saying that. You guys just seem to have lost that of forgotten it.
Max is either writing me a really long rant or I made him stop and think…
“YOU fear a homogenized society where everyone has about the same.”
If you don’t fear such a society, you should.
It means that someone or some system of some ones from the government is going to tell you what to do in every aspect of your life.
It means unless it is government approved, you don’t get to do it.
What does the far left socio-crats do not understand about oppressive government control I do not understand.
That will of course include what you watch on TV (even more restrictive.) What is allowed by Hollywood to film. What is allowed by manufacturers to make (can’t waste those valuable resources.) What kind of car you drive or house you own.
What the price of land will be and what kind of education you receive after high school as only certain degrees will be “legally” accepted.
It would come to a point where if you have one too many children, the government will invoke the “China” clause and demand forced sterilization.
Military service will of course, become mandatory, there will be no exceptions for health or belief. As the separation of church and state powers will not allow for conscious objector status.
Free speech will become a thing of the past if it offends the government and “any” protest will be put down quick and brutally. Complain about it and the government will intimidate you and your family. (aka Soviet Union style.)
You can buy newspapers and publish, but only if you meet the criteria of government standards.
There will be language zones, just like Quebec. Cities like San Antonio may require that Spanish is the official language and it would force any companies, businesses or enterprises to comply strictly to their required language with English taking the second chair.
Parking spaces will become smaller and standardized. If you don’t like it, you will be required to tax a bus, taxi or train to your destination. (Germany stylized.)
You won’t be able to vote for single candidates anymore, you must vote for approved parties (aka European style politics.) A representative will no longer be able to bring up local issues unless the meet with approval from the national party consensus.
Yeah, control freak government is very scary. Heck, the Libs whine about controls now – they ain’t seen nothing yet if they want socialism.
On the contrary JR, I have high regard for all Americans who work hard, support themselves, and don’t ask for anyone else to sustain them.
For those who are physically or mentally disabled, we take care of them now. I find no record of anyone starving to death in the United States in the last 100 years. In fact, America has become very fat!
From your posts JR and Chas, I can see that neither of you fully understand how Socialism has already imbedded itself in America. Maybe some other time, I’ll list several examples if you want, but that will take much time!
You don’t see the transfer of wealth from those who earn it to those who don’t.
That doesn’t mean the wealth is all transferred, because as you both point out, there are still many wealthy Americans.
But you two, won’t be happy until ALL of the Wealth is spread equally across all Americans regardless of who actually EARNED the wealth.
And that’s wrong. If I didn’t earn it, then I don’t want it.
I was unemployed for a period of 3 months once, was eligible for unemployment and probably many other benefits, but I simply could not put my hand out for something I didn’t earn.
Self-reliance, used to be a strong trait of all Americans. Not any more.
See that guy there Max?
He’s a nut. He sits alone all day and night in his deluded ccnditon contemplating the worst that can happen.
Dog attack victim ‘was in the wrong place at the wrong time’
http://newsok.com/article/3150074/
See that guy there Max?
He’s a nut. He sits alone all day and night in his deluded ccnditon contemplating the worst that can happen.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 03:50 PM
J R describes himself perfectly. The poster of 24/7 method and paranoid delusions about what people think or write.
I was pointing out the nut “kansas” there Max.
I didn’t mean you.
Yet.
You aren’t getting it. You have to have SOME socialism and SOME capitalism.
You don’t take a bath in all hot or all cold water do you?
“I was unemployed for a period of 3 months once, was eligible for unemployment and probably many other benefits, but I simply could not put my hand out for something I didn’t earn.” Posted by: Max | October 17, 2007 at 03:49 PM
Do I hear violins playing?
Well that’s dumb on you Max not collecting unemployment. You and your employer paid into it for a reason.
Ask “kansas” if he feels bad getting his assistance.
JR,
So how is working for yourself working out for you?
Seems like you spend more time complaining about how all those “rich” people you don’t want to work for should have to give you what you can’t do for yourself.
The “have nots” don’t have anything because they choose not to.
There is nothing stopping someone from bettering themself in this country.
You didn’t answer my question either.
Is there only a set amount of wealth in this world where the only way you can get any is if you take it from someone else?
Gotta do the school conference thing.
An enjoyable exchange Max.
Open your mind a little. Things are not all one way or the other. Not yet anyway.
The letter is up to $102,300.00!
http://members.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewUserPage&userid=rush-letter-for-charity
Ask “kansas” if he feels bad getting his assistance.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 03:57 PM
And J R wonders why the forums degenerate into name calling and accusation when he is one of the worst ones doing such things.
Agree JR, pure Capitalism never existed. We do have a mix now, however that mix is rapidly changing to the Socialist mode, which will quickly erode American productive capacity to the point where we can’t do anything for ourselves. (Much of that has already happened)
As to Kansas’ forecast, he’s not delusional, and I see no reason to continue to personally attack him.
(Ya know, if Kansas is truly a disabled Vet, do you think it’s right to keep making fun of him and attacking him like that? When you see someone in a wheelchair, do you laugh at them or hold the door for them?)
What you might gain from more Socialist Programs you will lose in other ways, including the loss of choice and freedom.
For many, that’s ok, because as long as they can live for free, not work, then they’ll be happy with whatever they get from Government, as long as no one else has more.
That’s not ok with me.
In 2008 we will find out if I’m in the majority or not, because there will be a clear choice between a Socialist Democrat and a Capitalist Republican.
Max,
Let me know how that hobby farm works out for ya.
“Free HillaryCare!”
You may get “free” health care, but who’s going to do the work that brings in that $10,000 a year?
“Food stamps.”
Are you planning to cut your grocery bill to $100 a month?
“Heating assistance.”
You’re already into the cold part of the year before LIEP takes effect in March. But maybe Global Warming will save you on that one.
“Farm/crop subsidies.”
How many acres do you intend to plant in crops? Several thousand? Because farm subsidies aren’t even going to pay all of your seed and fertilizer bills, much less your equipment and fuel. And that’s during a good year. Why do you think small farms are selling to large corporate farms? Do you think they don’t get subsidies?
“Tree planting credits. (From planting some apple trees on farmland the Gov’t will give me free trees, and credits for conserving the environment!)”
What are the credit amounts for that?
“Windmill credits (I’ll generate 90% of my power from a $25,000 windmill, that will be purchased with Gov’t credits)”
Where are you getting the $25,000 for that windmill again? Do you have an offshore account somewhere? Oh, yes, from those Gov’t credits…AFTER you buy the windmill.
“Hybrid Car Credit (I’ll buy a new Hybrid car)”
Gotta buy the car to get the credits. Again, money from that offshore account? Or those tens of thousands of dollars of credit?
“Farm Pond Credits (I’ll put in a pond and stock it with free fish from the state hatchery, and get some more conservation credits)”
You’ll buy the equipment to dig that pond, I’m sure.
Fantasyland is great, Max. We all love to take trips there. Unfortunately, we live in Realityland.
Still, I wish you luck. Maybe you can do it. Then YOU can be one of the people that are bad-mouthed.
Oh, and don’t forget that oil that will be discovered on your land, as I’m sure it will be.
The difference Rox are that tax credits indicate choice.
A Socialistic government will give you no choice nor tax credits because your choices will be mandated.
Kansas,
Do you now know who Dr. Pearman is?
Dr. Graeme Pearman,http://www.dar.csiro.au/profile/pearman.html
http://www.smh.com.au/news/environment/minchin-denies-climate-change-manmade/2007/03/14/1173722560417.html
“A former CSIRO climate scientist, and now head of a new sustainability institute at Monash University, Graeme Pearman, said Professor Carter was NOT a credible source on climate change.
“If he has any evidence that [global warming over the past 100 years] is a natural variability he should publish through the peer review process,” Dr Pearman said. “That is what the rest of us have to do.” He said he was letting the fossil fuel industry off the hook. “
Is there only a set amount of wealth in this world where the only way you can get any is if you take it from someone else?
Posted by: Nathan | October 17, 2007 at 04:02 PM
Nathan, I’ll answer two ways, both simple to help even the WE Blog editors understand – if they are reading this crap everyday! :0)
A Socialist will say that there is only so much pie available, and we must slice it up in equally sized pieces. It doesn’t matter whether you helped to make the pie or not, you get the same sized piece.
A Capitalist will say, whoever wants pie, go make some. Some are better at making pie then others, so some get big pieces, others get smaller pieces. The entire pie can be small or large, depending on how many people want to make pie.
Short answer to your question Nathan – a person can create their own wealth by working for it.
(Socialists try the easy way, stealing it)
America is full of success stories as examples.
Max,
I knew the answer to the question, but wanted to see what JR’s perspective was.
People like JR talk about the so called haves and have nots like the haves took the money from the have nots and the only way for the have nots to get any is to take it from the haves.
It is quite probably the most assinine thing I think anyone could believe.
sugar posted an interesting proposition last night cosmos.
Just “what is your curriculum vitae” and how it relates to you being such an authority of posting hyperlink and op ed pieces on Climate scare tactics.
Have yet to see cosmos post any original scientific methodology on Climate Change. It’s “parroting paradise” of hyperlink and op ed pieces.
So how about it cosmos. Explain to us in your own words how climate models that the IPCC uses to make predictions are better than real world observations?
Explain why climate models exclude so many factors, yet claim to be accurate?
cosmos cannot explain nor will he explain without resorting to hyperlinks or op ed pieces.
cosmos avoids discussing science like the plague.
Kansas,
Ignore the troll cosmos.
/ignore cosmos
You can do it.
Oh, and don’t forget that oil that will be discovered on your land, as I’m sure it will be.
Posted by: Rox | October 17, 2007 at 04:06 PM
Rox, I have some cash and assets to make the aquisition happen. If I become Socialist and Hillary wins, then I can acquire the assets, cut my expenses drastically through all of Hillary’s socialist programs.
I can then live on $10,000 in taxable earned income (not total income mind you) a year plus subsidies.
Remaining cash will be put into tax-free municipals that will not count as income. (That’s the part Chas didn’t understand, I can lower my tax bracket immediately, if I want to)
Of all people who file income tax returns, the top 10% pay 70.30% (that’s more than 2/3!) of ALL income taxes!Posted by: Max | October 17, 2007 at 02:33 PM
Max, I think I read recently that the top 1% get 21% of the income.
In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands. As of 2001, the top 1% of households (the upper class) owned 33.4% of all privately held wealth, and the next 19% (the managerial, professional, and small business stratum) had 51%, which means that just 20% of the people owned a remarkable 84%, leaving only 16% of the wealth for the bottom 80% (wage and salary workers). In terms of financial wealth, the top 1% of households had an even greater share: 39.7%. Table 1 and Figure 1 present further details drawn from the careful work of economist Edward N. Wolff at New York University (2004).http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html
Nathan, I saw what you were trying to do, but the Socialist Libs just never take the bait. They never answer.
You may not have seen it, but a couple of weeks ago I posted a list of 12 things that I thought we all had in common – 12 things on which we might all agree. This would then, hopefully, serve as a basis for further discussion. If we could all agree as to What some common goals were, then the discussion could focus on How to achieve those 12 common goals. Never happened.
They are either dumber then we think they are, or they don’t want to answer honestly because it does look unAmerican when you answer the question in a Socialist way.
That’s a pretty dim and negative outlook they have on life, when they think they have no individual productive capacity themselves, and that they must rely on the wealth of others in order to live. Who would want to admit that?
Someone with no shame…
I wonder what some of them think to themselves when/if they watched the movie Cinderella Man.
When Jim Braddock (played by Russell Crowe) goes back to the welfare line to pay them back what does someone like JR think?
-Why the hell would he pay them back? That makes no sense.
-Wow, what a real man. I want to be like that.
Or:
-why the hell didn’t he go there sooner to ask for money?
-If only the government has simply given him the money from someone “wealthy” he never would have had to ask for it.
Kansas,
Post your CV (Industrial Hygiene?), so we can compare it to http://www.dar.csiro.au/profile/pearman.html
And also the CV’s of all the climate scientists listed in the annex at http://ipcc-wg1.ucar.edu/wg1/wg1-report.html
Or:
-I have not watched that movie because the government didn’t take enough money from someone wealthy to give to me so I could afford to.
XXX, I’ll review your link and get back to you on that.
You are discussing relative shares of wealth and income, while I was discussing shares of tax as it relates to income – 2 different things.
I’m not sure if you are suggesting a direct redistribution of wealth somehow, or just advocating more taxes for the wealthiest who already pay a majority of the income tax.
Months ago I posted a Modified Flat Tax Plan, I’ll see if I can find it later. I related this to the table I posted above, and there would be some surprising results (which I think you would agree with), though I don’t think anyone a few months ago picked-up on that fact.
I saw that movie Nathan, and I know exactly what you are talking about.
That’s the way I was raised, and when in fact I could have been on the dole, I couldn’t do it.
That was an outstanding movie and should have won some Oscars. (30 years ago, it would have been a slam dunk)
The ‘Poor’ people today don’t live in anything close to those conditions. They probably can’t believe that anybody actually lived like that, but they sure as H did!
This paragraph by Lou Dobbs jumped right out at me:
“Although many conservatives refuse to accept the reality, George W. Bush is a one-world neo-liberal who drove budget and trade deficits to record heights while embracing faith-based economic policies that perversely require only blind allegiance to free markets and free trade, without regard for consequence.”
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/16/Dobbs.Oct17/index.html
Max,
I have been to nearly every coastal country of South America and the West Coast of Africa.
I have seen what real poverty is.
People in America have no idea of how well off they are.
“I can then live on $10,000 in taxable earned income (not total income mind you) a year plus subsidies.”
You have no clue.
I know the difference between taxable earned income and income. I’m self-employed and do my own taxes every year.
If you can complain about wealth on the internet…
You obviously have no idea of what real poverty is.
“A Socialist will say that there is only so much pie available, and we must slice it up in equally sized pieces. It doesn’t matter whether you helped to make the pie or not, you get the same sized piece.” — Max –========================
Max, my friend, that is NOT Socialism… THAT is Communism… BIG diffrence between those two…
Sigh….
Another manners lesson?
Wasn’t it just yesterday you took exception to being talked about when you were not around?
And you do it today to me?
I TOLD you I was leaving.
Ok
Wealth. You are asking me about wealth as if wealth is money.
And nothing else.
That’s not the case. Shall I go on?
Kansas,
I’m not using my personal science background to claim that humans are causing most of the recent global warming.
You however have claimed that your college science classes QUALIFY you to claim that the consensus from all of the credible climate scientists (IPCC, etc) is wrong.
“As I’ve said before, I’ve taken science classes, but my degree isn’t a science degree.”
Posted by: Republican | April 22, 2007 at 02:24 PM
Kansas has personally claimed that the recent observing warming is due to “natural” causes, such as axis tilt.
So Kansas should list his CV, and provide a link to his published, peer-reviewed paper proving his claim.
Or admit that he is not qualified to criticize the consensus re anthropogenic global warming.
Maybe I’ll come back later. I need to eat anyway.
I don’t like one sided discussions.
Oh and I see cosmos as eminently qualified to post here.
I liked the above post from Sugar. Seems we might find the opinion of a therapist to be valuable! (Though I disagree with the direction Sugar is going on this)
I see a dichotomy in people, if that’s what you want to call it. Two kinds of people on this Earth:
1. Those who are responsible for themselves.
2. Those who think others owe them something, and thus they are not responsbile for themselves.
May not fit Sugar’s textbook model, but that’s my 2 bits.
————————————————I would be interested in comments from others who see this marked dichotomy in such people, as those who take opposing sides on the issue of Global Warming, and what might be done to alleviate the problem.
Thank you.
Posted by: sugar | October 17, 2007 at 02:38 AM
cosmos I don’t have an industrial hygiene degree -whatever that is.
Again, cosmos avoids the question about his qualifications or lack thereof of why he doesn’t discuss the science.
Why are you afraid of discussing the science cosmos? Can you discuss something without hyperlink and op ed pieces?
You however have claimed that your college science classes QUALIFY you to claim that the consensus from all of the credible climate scientists (IPCC, etc) is wrong. Posted by: cosmos | October 17, 2007 at 05:03 PM
I don’t claim anything.
If we are talking about car engines, I don’t want to reference hyperlinks and op ed pieces, I want to actually discuss the mechanics and science behind them.
If we are talking about Climate Change, I don’t want to reference hyperlinks and op ed pieces, I want to actually discuss the methodologies and the science behind them.
cosmos are you incapable of discussing science without injecting bias and ideology?
Kansas,
Are you “slow”? I have not used my personal science background to make claims here — but you HAVE.
Again, Kansas… post why you are qualified to criticize the peer-reviewed AGW consensus.
Again, Kansas… post why you are qualified to criticize the peer-reviewed AGW consensus.
Posted by: cosmos | October 17, 2007 at 05:24 PM
Because I want to talk about the science of climatology without hyperlink and op ed pieces I am critical of the AGW consensus?
On the contrary cosmos, ignorance on the specifications of scientific methods included or excluded is far more dangerous.
cosmos are you for the exclusion for the discussion of science because it does not meet a political goal?
Why are you afraid to discuss the science behind Climate Change cosmos? Do you actually need op ed pieces and hyperlinks to discuss science?
Do your peer reviewed Scientists use op ed pieces and hyperlinks in their scientific method?
Are op ed pieces and hyperlinks part of their theories cosmos?
“Do your peer reviewed Scientists use op ed pieces … in their scientific method?”
Posted by: Kansas | October 17, 2007 at 05:33 PM
No… but YOUR NON-peer reviewed people do.
So cosmos, you refuse to discuss with me the science of Climatology without op ed pieces and hyperlinks?
Have it your way then, we have nothing left to discuss on the matter if you want to inject one-sided argument instead of discussing the science.
I am new to this blogging thing. Can someone inform me about proper blogging criteria? I’ve read some of the info above & it looks as though the object is not to have a meaningful discussion but to belittle others that disagree. I hope that is not the case. If this blog is for discussion or just to have fun please let me know & I’ll find one that wants to discuss issues & not rant & rave.
Paul, just respond and post when you feel the need to make a point and ignore the rest. It’s hard to do. But we do get good conversations sometimes.
Actually, Chas you are correct. I had described Communism, instead of Socialism. But equal shares for all, isn’t that what you really want?
So, here’s the correction:
A Socialist will say that there is only so much pie available. The pie will be sliced up so that those who made a piece of the pie will get that piece less a share that will given to someone who didn’t make a piece or made a smaller piece. If you made no pie, you will still get a 1/4 slice. If you made some pie, you will get a 1/2 slice. If you made a lot of pie, you will get 1/2 of what you made. There is some motivation to work hard, because even if you make a huge piece, you still keep 1/2 of what you made. The pie will be larger than the Communist Pie, but smaller than the Capitalist pie.
A Capitalist will say, whoever wants pie, go make some. Some are better at making pie then others, so some get big pieces, others get smaller pieces, others still make no pie at all, so they get none. The entire pie can be small or large, depending on how many people want to make pie. There is a lot of motivation to work hard, as you get to keep what you make. The Capitalist Pie will be the biggest of all.
A Communist will say that the pie will be a certain size, and the collective always makes something less then that certain size. The communist pie will be divided into equal size slices, whether you made no pie, a small amount of pie, or a lot of pie. The Communist Pie will be the smallest.
Here’s how Republicans man the war without ‘conscription’, kinda :
Pentagon to alert 8 Guard units for duty By LOLITA C. BALDOR, Associated Press Writer
39 minutes ago
WASHINGTON – The Pentagon is preparing to alert eight National Guard units that they should be ready to go to Iraq or Afghanistan beginning late next summer, The Associated Press learned Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENTThe U.S. military is reaching out to more Guard units in an effort to maintain needed troop levels, ease some of the strain on the active duty Army and provide security for ports, convoys and other installations.
According to defense officials, seven of the units would deploy to Iraq and one to Afghanistan. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because the orders had not yet been signed and the announcement is not expected until the end of this week.
Two of the units will be full combat brigades heading to Iraq — between next summer and into 2009, to serve as part of the rotation with active duty troops. There are currently 20 combat brigades in Iraq, but under plans mapped out by President Bush and his top commanders, that number will gradually drop to 15 next year, as the U.S. reduces its troop presence there.
Those two Guard brigades would include about 3,500 soldiers each — generally the size of a combat brigade. But the other five going to Iraq will be much smaller brigades that are tailored for specialized support operations, mostly security and detainee operations. Their sizes vary, but some would be about 1,000 troops.
The announcement sometime this week will give the Guard units advanced notice of the planned deployment schedule so that they can begin training and preparing. Also, because it looks far into the future, there is always the possibility that plans could change, based on conditions in Iraq.
There are now 171,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, largely because several units are overlapping as some move in and others move out of the country. Once those transitions are complete and the drawdown begins, the level of troops in Iraq could drop to as low as 135,000.
Some of the smaller Guard units would be stationed in Kuwait, where they would provide security for the port there, as well as convoys that move in and out of Iraq.
All together, the Guard announcement would involve about 20,000 soldiers.
Specific brigades were not identified, but they will include units from North Carolina, Oklahoma, Illinois and Hawaii, according to officials. Some of those being alerted this week have done tours in the war zone already, and others would be going for the first time.
A key element of the plan calls for sending the Guard brigades in fully intact units, complete with their own commanders and headquarters, rather than breaking them up and spreading them around, as has been done in Iraq in previous Guard deployments. Lt. Gen. H. Steven Blum, chief of the National Guard, has made that a priority, saying his brigades are more effective working as teams.
At the same time, the plan will also allow the citizen soldiers to serve just eight or nine months on the battlefield, as part of a 12-month deployment. Defense Secretary Robert Gates has committed to having Guard soldiers serve in war zones for no more than one year, including the final training time before they leave.
Previously, Guard soldiers would spend up to six months training before going overseas for 12 months — forcing them to be away from home for as long as 18 months. More recently, brigades in Iraq — including some Guard units — saw their deployments extended to up to 15 months on the battlefield.
The new plan would have them spend several months at home training, then the remainder of the year at the battlefront.
As of this summer, more than 185,000 Guard members had served in either Iraq or Afghanistan over the past six years and more than 28,000 of them had been deployed more than once.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/10/17/video-meeting-resistance-know-thine-enemy/
Paul, we argue about arguing sometimes. Like Cosmos and Kansas today.
Constructive argumentation is a good thing, you get to the truth hopefully, after some time.
We tend to argue about how to argue more so then argue about the topic at hand.
In other words, sort of an Internet b*tch session.
Then the personal attacks, which we all make (whether we admit it or not some are more holier than thou you know)add some flavor to the discussions, just to make things fun. So you must have thick skin to survive here.
My wife jumped in once, and was immediately personally attacked, without any comments made about the substance of her post, and being smarter than I, she said “to h*ll with that”, and she never came back. (And she has a PhD and DVM and other degrees that I can’t even spell!)
PMom is right though, there are a few times when we actually get down to the meat of the topic at hand. Last time I think was May 2007, when most agreed that the proposed Immigration Amnesty law was a bad thing.
Some day we might also agree that the sky is blue during the daytime on a non-cloudy day, but even that may be a stretch.
But you see Paul, just by my saying out loud, mind you, that we agreed on the Immigration Amnesty law being a bad thing, you can bet money that some will jump in now and say we never agreed on that.
So, like a Soap Opera…
As the World Turns.
Posted by: Max | October 17, 2007 at 06:07 PM
Personally Max, I think you should take that pie and put it where the sun don’t shine. Do you people on this blog have a live or is this it. What a waste.
Don’t bother to slam me, I’m just passing by. I do have a life.
Max, If as a capitalist I get to keep what I make. Why do I have to pay taxes that fund things I am not in favor of? Isn’t that a form of socialism? I know you are just making a point of the difference of commies & socials but I thought I’d throw this in to get a discussion going. Not of paying taxes but rather of funding things that you aren’t in favor of.
This “pie” business is simplistic and silly.
I’ll play. I can work with it.
With a capitalist pie, a few people own the ingredients, the kitchen, the oven, and the pie pan.
The capitalist say to others. “Come, make pie. We’ll eat together.”
Because they want to eat, these people make the pie. They do all the work while the capitalistswatch, doing nothing. They constantly promise the workers a share of the pie. But they admonish the workers. “We own all that goes into the pie. You will get a piece but we will decide how big that piece will be. Keep in mind, we can find hungry people to make pie anywhere we wish. Work hard. Do as you are told. Don’t even THINK about making your own pie or we will fire you and you will not eat!”
The capitalists keep the workers always worried.
Finally, when the pie is done, the capitalists eat almost all the pie. They leave for the workers crumbs and scraps of pie. If the workers protest, they are again reminded that pie can be made anywhere. “But take heart!. they say. “Why someday maybe you can have your own oven and kitchen and pie.!”
Kansas,
Okay, “discuss” your “science” claim that “axis shift” and “solar activity” have caused the Arctic region to warm rapidly during the last 30 years. Your PROOF?
“Earth’s axis rotation and solar activity has more to do with the arctic melting than co2. The albedo of poles are more susceptible to axis shift, thus more melting.”
Posted by: Kansas | September 13, 2007 at 07:19 PM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/polar-bears-fac.html#comment-82636247
The credible climate scientists claim that global warming is mostly caused by human-added greenhouse gases.
Also, due to lower water vapor in the Arctic region, CO2 and other GHG’s may be more significant there than at lower latitudes.
And Kansas, provide your PROOF of your “science” claim,
“Me? I’m going with the 98 percent variable of natural climate change as the cause.”
Posted by: Kansas | September 14, 2007 at 02:38 AM
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/polar-bears-fac.html#comment-82664655
pmom & maxThanks for your welcome & I will let you both know that I enjoy DISCUSSIONS not arguing. I look forward to blogging with y’all
Paul,
It depends how you want your form of government.
What suggestions do you have that governments raise revenues without taxes?
Bonds and t-notes maybe? Does that work alone or are their things that make “our” government grow and be sustained.
Shall we go back to the days of toll roads by township or perhaps bring in a portion of our crops or goods so that the government can keep itself running?
Too late cosmos, you had the opportunity to discuss the science without interjecting bias. You’ve lost out on an opportunity.
What about SCHIP? Is it good or bad? Does it trully allow upper income people to go to a gov’t program or does it really help uninsured kids?
“Too late cosmos, you had the opportunity to discuss the science without interjecting bias. You’ve lost out on an opportunity.”
Posted by: Kansas | October 17, 2007 at 06:34 PM
Translation: Kansas cannot defend his wrong, unscientific claims.
Kansas,I asked about funding programs that I don’t like, not taxes. But there are different ways to collect revenues besides taxes, but must of them have proven to little. I find that funding certain programs, such as, foreign aid to certain countries to be utterly distasteful, I.E. Great Britain, Germany, France, etc.
Paul, as I understand it SCHIP’s takes care of those children who are from families ineligible for medicaid, but have insufficient funds to buy health insurance.
The Kansas version is called Healthwave and you can see the table with the eligible incomes at the URL below.http://www.kansashealthwave.org/hwqual.asp
I find that funding certain programs, such as, foreign aid to certain countries to be utterly distasteful, I.E. Great Britain, Germany, France, etc.
Posted by: paul | October 17, 2007 at 06:41 PM
Couldn’t agree with you more there Paul. Buying influence always seems to come back to bite us.
Translation: Kansas cannot defend his wrong, unscientific claims.
Posted by: cosmos | October 17, 2007 at 06:39 PM
Translation: cosmos wants to inject bias into a scientific discussion before it even starts.
good night y’all. I’m old & tired & must lay my head down to rest so I can be ready for another blog session tomorrow. I hope each & everyone of you have a meaningful & invigorating chat with each other.
Just when you think Science Knows Everything :)
Breathtaking New Species Found in Western Pacific
“MANILA, Philippines — Scientists exploring a deep ocean basin in search of species isolated for millions of years found marine life believed to be previously undiscovered, including a tentacled orange worm and an unusual black jellyfish.
Project leader Dr. Larry Madin said Tuesday that U.S. and Philippine scientists collected about 100 different specimens in a search in the Celebes Sea south of the Philippines.
Madin, of the Massachusetts-based Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, said the sea is at the heart of the “coral triangle” bordered by the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia — a region recognized by scientists as having a high degree of biological diversity.” http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,302603,00.html
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/timeline.htm
“1977
Scientific opinion tends to converge on global warming, not cooling, as the chief climate risk in next century.”
Kansas,
How does my so-called “bias” prevent you from proving your claims about “axis tilt”, “solar activity”, and “98 percent”?
Hoo boy cos!
I appreciate your efforts. But you’ve no idea who you are wasting your time on!!! Trust me on this. Continue to bust him fine. But you should know you are messing with a greatly diminished man!!!
Dang I love search engine math.
Discussion of science involves more than one person cosmos.
If you unable to discuss science then I understand that.
Just stop pushing your agenda on me with out discussing the science yourself.
This no, “you start first thing” and then cosmos will follow with ad hominem and stating you state lies and false statement days are over.
Either you want to discuss the science or you don’t.
You’ve made it very clear cosmos, that you don’t want to discuss the science of climate change without interjecting op ed pieces, hyperlinks and ad hominem.
So we are done cosmos, yet again. I’ve tried over and over, but you resort to your same tired tactics of single minded ideology.
Your loss, not mine cosmos, get lonely talking to yourself.
J R up from his nap to bring the quality of the forums to a new low once again.
Everyone go do something else, J R is here.
JR, why do you assume the ingredients, oven, et al, are controlled by someone other then you?
Kansas,
Credible science is based on skepticism (peer-review), and can withstand scrutiny.
And thank you for admitting that your climate “science” claims cannot withstand scrutiny.
Max, If as a capitalist I get to keep what I make. Why do I have to pay taxes that fund things I am not in favor of? Isn’t that a form of socialism? I know you are just making a point of the difference of commies & socials but I thought I’d throw this in to get a discussion going. Not of paying taxes but rather of funding things that you aren’t in favor of.
Posted by: paul | October 17, 2007 at 06:27 PM
Simplistic Pie Model was used as an illustration Paul, obviously the real world is more complicated then a pie.
This discussion though is not new. It goes back thousands of years.
Only in free countries, such as the USA, do we have the luxury of actually having an opportunity to affect the changes we might want to make, and of having the freedom to have this discussion about the changes we might want to make.
Remember, this freedom is rare, in terms of human history, and comes to us with much sacrifice, mostly from the American soldiers.
The real question Paul, is regarding the economic model we should follow, regarding the assumptions of personal responsibility and self-reliance or not, and most importantly, the degree of freedom The People should have in determining their own direction.
Freedom carries with it much responsibility, such as your own existence. Responsibility for one’s own existence is not a new concept, having the freedom to choose between self-reliance and collective existence is new, as of the 20th Century.
And there are no absolutes. We don’t let Americans starve. But we also do not GIVE (through taxation) expensive homes, cars, food and clothing to those who CHOOSE not to work.
Which models work best? That’s the discussion. I believe the model that works best, is the one that gives the biggest reward to the most productive, while ensuring that those who are not successful, do not starve to death.
That model is in place today, PLUS, we now have a population who are below the poverty line who are obese, have a home, and have clothing.
You tell me, have we crossed the line of Socialism or not, today.
“Rox, I have some cash and assets to make the aquisition happen.
Remaining cash will be put into tax-free municipals that will not count as income.”
Max, you wouldn’t even come close to qualifying for any type of benefits. Maybe you should rethink? You may have to dump more than you’ve planned.
And as I said, I wish you good luck in your venture.
Rox, your home is NOT considered for many Socialist benefits.
So if I put most of my assets into my home, I have everything paid for, then I can greatly minimize my taxable income to qualify for Socialist benefits.
Why shouldn’t I?
See that’s another thing I have with you cons Max.
There doesn’t seem to be a kick in level for misery that jump starts your compassion. The poor are never poor enough to suit you.
JR, why do you assume the ingredients, oven, et al, are controlled by someone other then you?
Your question?
I assume that because it is incresingly true.
Can I open a store? Sure. And Wal mart will crush me.
Can I start a business? You bet. But it’s likely there’s a franchise doing it. Again I’m toast.
How ’bout a farm? They USED to give Americans land. Now? Even if they did they couldn’t give me enough to compete. And I can’t buy it on my own.
It’s starting to look like I have to work for someone else.
So? The “wealth” if you will in me? It no longer belongs to me.
I have to sell it.I just lost some freedom.
Do you start to see where un regulated capitalism goes? Should I go on?
From the “For What It’s Worth” Dept:
From the National Center for Science Education:
A special alert about the Vitter earmark to fund a creationist “science education program” in Louisiana. Call your senator today!
SPECIAL ALERT ABOUT THE VITTER EARMARK
Alert! The United States Senate is poised to fund the development of an antievolution “science education program” in Louisiana. Please contact your senators to ask them to remove the earmark from the Improvement of Education, Title III Fund.
Please do this today. It is possible that the bill will be voted on as early as Tuesday, October 16, 2007.
Be sure that both your senators know that this earmark to the Departments of Labor, Health and Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies Appropriation Bill would be used to harm science education and breach the separation of church and state.
The funding bill is expected to reach the Senate floor some time this week (October 15-19), possibly as early as Tuesday.
It is vital that our senators remove this earmark before the bill is voted on. All senators will have a chance to vote on the bill and to suggest amendments, but four senators have the greatest influence on the final form of the bill:
Senator Tom Harkin (D-IA), chair of the Appropriations Subcommittee on Labor, Health/Human Services, Education, and Related Agencies; Senator Arlen Specter (R-PA), the subcommittee’s ranking minority member; Senator Robert Byrd (D-WV), chair of the Senate Appropriations Committee; Senator Thad Cochran(R-MS),the committee’s ranking minority member.
Senators are most responsive to their own constituents, so please call your senators through the Capitol switchboard, and politely explain the importance of this issue. Please also contact the four senators listed above to ensure that they know the nation is watching. If you wish to fax them, a sample letter is included below; we encourage you to modify it as you see fit.
sugar, you have some very good points upthread at 2:38 AM.
I also suggest making a “TIME CAPSULE” of the arguments against anthropogenic global warming.
I’m making one from posts made here, and by other deniers — and giving copies to family and friends. They’ll find it “interesting” in a few years, when AGW is undeniable.
For example, I’m including Kansas’ posts re “axis shift” etc upthread.
Nathan’s don’t worry about it post,http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/open-thread–12.html#comment-86516740
Nathan’s post of Avery & Singer’s press releasehttp://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-915.html#comment-82846713
Which is debunked here,http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/unstoppable-hot-air/
Nathan’s “I beleive the HUNDREDS of credible peer reviewed scientists who do not believe the so called ‘concensus’”
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-915.html#comment-82893167
His claim that Steven Milloy is a credible climate science source.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/03/quote_of_the_we.html#comment-64414640
And others like that.
My God JR, you assume everyone must be Self Employed or on the Public Dole to be successful!
What’s wrong with being an employee of a successful company?
I am, and millions of other Americans are as well.
One thing you might want to consider, even if you are employed by an employer, consider yourself a self-employed contractor.
Actually, there are many in my company in this classification that make tons of money!
But, even if you are ‘just’ a self-employed contractor working for a company (or THE MAN as you like to call it) then if you have superior skills you can make a ton of money as an employee.
I have. I know many like me, and I know many that have made a ton more money then me by ‘working for the man’! Why? Because they are GOOD AT WHAT THEY DO!
ksgrm, runs her own business, and employs several people who like to work for her, are paid well and have good benefits. What’s wrong with that?
JR, like Nathan said today, if you think you are POOR, then travel around the world a bit, and see if you still think the same way.
I’ve been around some, not as much as Nathan, but I know what he says is true.
You starving JR? You have a house? You have clothes? A flush toilet? Electronic appliance? Washer and Dryer? Man, you be RICH compared to the rest of the world!
Show me an economic system that is better then what we have in the USA!
Sour grapes cause you don’t have what Bill Gates has?
I don’t. I look to others who are more successful because what they have DONE, and what they have EARNED, and I say – AMEN! Good for them!
I can be successful too, if I work for it!
And thank you for admitting that your climate “science” claims cannot withstand scrutiny.
Posted by: cosmos | October 17, 2007 at 07:48 PM
Sorry cosmos, but you don’t get to write down what I might think or write.
This is a very bad habit you have and you need to depart from it.
JR is talking about reality, not some hypothetical slogan or “ism”.
Free Enterprise Capitalism is the way to generate wealth, but JR is taking about those who can get hurt or left behind along the way.
The Free Enterprise System works much better if it creates customers along the way.
Then it’s a win win situation for everyone.
Forget the “Isms,” MAX, and deal with it as a practical matter…
So? The “wealth” if you will in me? It no longer belongs to me.
I have to sell it.Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 08:09 PM
What’s wrong with that? Do you expect people to have to be FORCED to buy your labor?
If you are so great, you have talent and skills that are of value, employers will be lining up at your door, hoping you go to work for them! Why is that a problem? Man, that is an opportunity!
You have to sell what you do man, that’s a reality of life, no matter what your occupation.
What you are looking for JR is a GURANTEE of income regardless of what you do or how well you do it, or if you do nothing!
It isn’t natural on this Earth for you to expect that. You Evolutionists should know that!
Being Born On This Earth Does Not Entitle You To Being Rich, Prosperous, Or Successful!
NEWS FLASH!
You Must Earn Your Way On This Earth!
If you fail to earn your own way, don’t expect someone else to carry you to prosperity.
You have to do that the Old Fashioned Way – You have to EARN IT!
Novel concept for you Libs!
“Actually, Chas you are correct. I had described Communism, instead of Socialism. But equal shares for all, isn’t that what you really want?” — Max –
Ummm… NO Max… That is what YOU keep insisting Socialism is… And I keep on telling you, that is not right… People in socialist countries do not all have equal shares of anything… They get what they have the same way we do… they work for it, and they save, and invest, and all of the same things WE do here… The major difference is that the Government has some degree of ownership in the “Means” of production… That, supposedly, insures that all who need work, can GET work… in whatever field of endeavor they have chosen…
FFigured you for the company man type there Max.
That’ll take care of you…for now.
Now I don’t know what it is that you DO, but I trust it is safe from outsourcing and illegal aliens? Safe for now anyway?
See? Your unregulated capitalism, like I told you earlier, eventually ends you in the same place you so fear.
In the company of everyone else. Competing for scraps against people who will do the same thing for slave wages.
I’ve not known you long enough to get where you are completely coming from. I don’t know how you stand on “free” trade or immigration. But I don’t understand anyone who isn’t scared as hell where this country is going. All the stuff you so love is nice. If we get to keep it.
Ed, who the heck is left behind in America?
Everyone has food, shelter, and clothing.
What the heck more do you want for those left behind?
Food, Shelter, and Clothing, gotta tell ya Ed, was not such a bad accomplishment for anyone on this planet until the Great Society days of the 1960’s. Then the bar was raised. We must all be rich!
BS.
Ya gotta work for that.
The low life, the downtrodden, the tired, the poor, the hungry – ALL FIND FOOD SHELTER AND CLOTHING IN THE USA.
Ed, you want something more, like – Kills the Jews and we will all be fine!
Chas, you obviously did not read my post. Try again.
Gotta go for now… be back later… And isnt it nice to be able to see open discussion, and nobody attacking individuals???
Yipppeeeee!!!!
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 02:01 PMHoo boy cos!
I appreciate your efforts. But you’ve no idea who you are wasting your time on!!! Trust me on this. Continue to bust him fine. But you should know you are messing with a greatly diminished man!!!
Dang I love search engine math.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 07:28 PM
Well Chas., it was almost refreshing today. Until the above post. Of course, Kansas couldn’t resist either.
Say Chas, what is the current Unemployment rate in the US?
Hey Max?
My son is 13.
You do know it is generally assumed his generation will be the first to be worse off than the previous one.
Is that what you’re defending?
re: J R’s comment. I’m not diminished. I actually have my own personality, standards and view on life. Nothing J R says or what the Capn does influences how I will act the next day or the day after that.
Assignment of characteristics of person lays more with the assigner than the assignee – especially on an anonymous blog. Like they know anything about me really.
Give it a rest “American Way”
I didn’t mention anyone specific.
Anticipated Floor Schedule
On Thursday, the House will meet at 10:00 a.m. for legislative business. Last votes expected: 1:00 p.m.
Members are advised that a Vote on the Journal is expected immediately after “One Minutes.” Following the vote, Member-Elect Niki Tsongas (MA) will be sworn in.
One Minutes (5 per side)
Vote on Overriding the President`s Veto of H.R. 976, the Children`s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act of 2007 (One Hour of Debate)
No JR. I think OUR generation will be the first to be the worse off.
Our kids, will be even worse then us, UNLESS you and I do something about that.
And I don’t think Socialism is the answer. Sorry.
Remember my post from aways back about the 12 things I hoped we all had in common? Didn’t happen.
We all care about our kids though don’t we?
Thanks Chas for sharing that.
Just another expansion of Socialism.
Will that make our kids better off then we are or worse?
Not sure of the exact figure Max, but I do believe it is less than 6%….
Some of that could be inaccurate, in that numerous people no longer show up on the unemployment rolls, because they have run out of benefit, or else the many self employed are still there, but never included, because they receive no benefits…
Max, if Socialism was as bad as you fear, then your wife would not have a PhD, and other degrees, unless you and many others had the same… As it is, she has hers, you have yours, others have theirs… whatever that might be…
I didn’t know you then.
And you are a bit off putting. Initially at least.
Agred we want a better America for our kids..
OUR kids. Not just yours. Not just mine. Not just some. But all of them.
My son is 13.Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 08:43 PM
I’m sorry JR. You will have to worry about Hillary the war activist keeping Iraq a hot zone until at least 2013.
Your son should be 19 by then.
How do you feel about that? Shouldn’t we hold hillary accountable for changing her mind?
Better yet, can’t we get a candidate who will STOP the madness now?
Max, if Socialism was as bad as you fear, then your wife would not have a PhD, and other degrees, unless you and many others had the same… As it is, she has hers, you have yours, others have theirs… whatever that might be…
Posted by: Chas. | October 17, 2007 at 08:49 PM
You think the government drove me or my bride to achieve degrees in our life? If so, exactly how did our wonderful socialist American government drive us to achieve what we did?
Max we are all socialists in a way.
We are members of a SOCIETY.
What you have and what you’ve been able to achieve is not just yours. In some way or other, you stand on someones shoulders.
That’s where we START talking about OUR kids.
OUR kids. Not just yours. Not just mine. Not just some. But all of them.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 08:49 PM
I told my kids what my Dad told his 4 sons. You get what you earn. It takes hard work. There are no gurantees in life. What you get depends on YOU.
Now JR, if you can agree to that, we have made some progress. Our kids won’t get what they don’t earn. If they expect a free ride, then THEY are wrong.
If you JR, expect our kids to have a free ride, then YOU are wrong.
We didn’t have a free ride. 99.9% of all humans born on this Earth did not get a free ride, why should ANYONE expect a free ride?
Just so we are all on the same page.
Hey brother, Dad’s here with us tonight dontcha think?
He’d be proud I think, tho his words would not be as PC or minced as ours!
That thought should scare the h*ll outta anyone who reads this!
Good.
Kansas,
Your climate “science” claims re “axis tilt” etc already failed to withstand scrutiny, downthread of,http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/polar-bears-fac.html#comment-82636247
If your “science” claims were valid, you could defend them with facts, observations, etc. But you cannot, so you don’t even try to.
In Britain, the ban on post-viable abortions takes effect at 24 weeks gestation, but is being consideredfor revision. Babies born after 20 weeks usually don’t get a poison needle to the heart before labor is induced, and are usually born alive but with premature lungs incapable yet of sustaining life for long, and so are set aside to live a few minutes or hours, and then die, alone and untouched.[This barbaric procedure was finally outlawed in the USofA by the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, although the Illinois ban was opposed in the Illinois Senate by baby-hating Obama.]
What you have and what you’ve been able to achieve is not just yours. In some way or other, you stand on someones shoulders.
That’s where we START talking about OUR kids.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 08:54 PM
Yeah, but at some point Dad through all 4 of his boys off of his shoulders and had to let us sink or swim.
That’s more then what our Dad had.
What you get depends on YOU
I think I covered that. Not necessarily true anymore. It’s becoming less true by the day.
Free ride? I only throw that around because you people do.
I got news for ya. 20 years ago, you;d have been right.
This “free ride” you fairly rant against. It doesn’t exist anymore. Disabuse yourself of that notion.
Someone the other night posted that they will have 500K in their retirement plan by retirement age.
One of the regulars posted back that 500K is more than enough.
Whomever that was, may want to pick up the November issue to Money magazine.
And hope to heck Hillary does not plan new taxes.
Well Max
MY Dad was a union steward. The only one that was also ever a crew chief in the shop. His take was we stand up for one another.
Accountability yes. But we are in some ways accountable for each other and the future.
was a union steward. JR
Part of a dying breed. Union membership still on the decline.But I can understand where you got your views on life.
I am accountable for my individual actions and their impact on my family, friends, and myself under the law. I am in no way accountable for the human race, those less fortunate than myself, or society as a whole.
I should add, I am being held accountable – because the government forcefully reaches into my pocket, takes all the money it wants, and redistributes it to whatever feel good cause it prescribes at the time.
But by choice and birth – none of us are accountable for the rest of the rat race.
But I drive a hybrid to save me MONEY, and also am helping cosmos save the CO2 emissions. But that is more of a consequence of me wanting to save money. But I can wave it for the green people.
Well I’m glad for the few good things you mention AMWAY.
But your overall attitude?
It’s doom for America. And it’s also doom for you. It’ll jsut take a little longer to get to you.
“If we do not hang together,we most assuredly will hang separately”
Benjamin Franklin
Unions?
Remember what I told Max about standing on the shoulders of others?
I am in no way accountable for the human race, those less fortunate than myself, or society as a whole.
But?We all care about our kids though don’t we?
I know, two different posters. But coming from the same place yet seemingly at odds with each other.
And that’s my hour and some change.
Max, I didnt SAY that… I said IF it was as bad as you fear, then that is what would be… But it isnt as bad as you fear, and I know of nobody in government that wants to take over the Commerce and Industry of our nation… I can think of some Commerce/Industry enterprises that might like to take over the government…. THAT is what is scary… That we turn into a Facist State…. Socialism is mild by comparison….
Well Max
MY Dad was a union steward. The only one that was also ever a crew chief in the shop. His take was we stand up for one another.
Accountability yes. But we are in some ways accountable for each other and the future.
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 09:08 PM
Funny JR, my dad was a union steward too, before he worked his way up to VP of a major American corporation. HS graduate, he worked his way from the bottom up, based on his hard work and accomplishments.
Sucked his way up? I knew his bosses, tough nosed old-fashioned SOB’s like you don’t see any more. The baseball bat approach doesn’t work anymore.
BTW, one of his bosses had a son who was afflicted with polio just months before the vaccine was available. Doug lost the use of his arms and has to sleep in an iron lung the rest of his life. He did everything on his own, including playing a piano, cooking, eating, and obtaining a lwa degree. His hobby was astronomy, and that’s when I met him. Adjusted his telescope with his feet. Helluva guy, and allowed no excuses to get in his way.
How many Americans are like that today?
Tell me, our kids who are ‘normal’ don’t have the same oppportunity today!
Agreed Chas. I’ll take socialism over feudalism any time.
What I’d prefer is some AMERICANISM. A united concern for all Americans and their future.
Look at that will ya?
A reasoned debate broke out.
Dang it Max I was leaving.
No I don’t think our kids have the same opportunity.
Oh and how your Dad worked his way up? That’s GONE.
Yeah my Dad had a chance to be management. HE didn’t want it.
But now? Promotion from within is dead. It gets the workers too close to management. Can’t have that. GOt to keep that line well defined. Trust me, I lived it.
“It’s doom for America. And it’s also doom for you. It’ll jsut take a little longer to get to you.”
First, it is a rainy night and has been a rainy day. But it’s not doom and gloom.
For me personally, I worked hard, served hard, and saved hard. Wifey and I raised our children to be independent and self reliant citizens. Both on their own with careers.
Now, it is pressing onward to those Happy Golden Years. We have earned it. Not Hillary. Not the democrat or republican party. WE together made our lives possible.
We started with nothing. Had kids with an income level well within range of WIC, food stamps, and housing assistance.
Never took a dime. Pressed on. Saved every dime. Bought savings bonds with every pay raise. There were no 401K/mutual funds in those days (there were, but only a few and most didn’t know they existed).
Later ventured out. First in line for deductible IRA’s. Then, too much income, non-deductible. Stopped. Then, years later along came Roth’s. Rolled over. Didn’t roll over. Depends on investment.
Followed in my parents footsteps who also were independent blue collar workers.
So, now, I am forced to cash in what I’ve saved. If not, hillary and the democrats are going to tax my hard earned, poor man
Everytime I think I’m getting ahead, the government comes along and takes it. Can’t afford to work overtime. Government takes over 50% of it – clearly demonstrated on my pay stub. So I work for time off.
Today, I am working year end investment decisions.
Most revolve around cashing in (first in first out, or other) stocks and MF’s. Why you ask? Because today the earnings will be taxed at 15%. If I wait for hillary, (nd suspect she will retro-active the change to 2008) she will remove the tax break. I will pay 33% fed and suffer follow on state income increases too.
I’m rambling. Let me simplfy this.
A lifes worth of savings. What would YOU do?
Cash in now and the government take 15% (fed/state), or wait and cash in at least 33%?
Hmmm…Americanism. What is that exactly?
You know JR, if we had some brewskys in some bar we wouldn’t find ourselves so far apart, I don’t think. It’s a question of definition though.
Who’s to say Capitalists leave anyone out to starve? Hasn’t happend in the 20th or 21st century in America, at least not that I could find. Even during the Great Depression, Americans did not starve.
Ya know, in the Depression, there was NO Gov’t welfare. People didn’t starve.
There was the CCC that provided Gov’t work to those who earned their wages. No welfare though. No food stamps. No ADC. No HUD Section 8 free housing.
We Americans took care of our own.
Even my father, his 6 siblings and divorced later widowed mother were able to survive.
How?
Hard work.
THAT is not taught today as being an option.
Feudalism! When have we had that in the USA!?!
Come on JR. You want pure Socialism. Fess up.
Gotta disagree with you due to the impact that will have. Whether you work or not, you get by.
Just getting by, doing the least amount possible, is NOT the American way, not historically or the way I was brought up.
Maybe that is America today. H*ll I hope not.
Just do the least that you can do to get by, then party time!
Yeah, that’s the future of our kids?
Glad it’s worked our for ya so well Amway.
I’m a little younger. It hasn’t been the same for me as you.
If you don’t care about me, why should I care about you?
Remember what I told Max about standing on the shoulders of others?
Posted by: J R | October 17, 2007 at 09:24 PM
I stand on the shoulders of my Dad, and my older brothers.
We all stand on the shoulders of the Flags of our Fathers.
Read that book.
The age of the robber barons was close to feudalism Max.
We get closer to it again every day.
YOU have a problem with people who do nothing.
Well, we have people who do nothing but make money on money. And they do it by sublimating American wages and working conditions. Surely you should have at least as much issue with them as these “free riders” you talk about?
If you don’t care about me, why should I care about you?
Posted by: J R
JR, please don’t confuse me sharing my situation with you as caring. I was trying to establish where I am and how I got there.
But can you respond to my question, please?
Would you cash in now and give up 15% of your hard earned money, or wait until hillary increases the withholding to 33%?
and thanks JR.
Not having that sort of money I’m in no place to offer advice.
Maybe I should finish the investment thought. I share this because I know I am not alone. 50ish/something. Making plans for the 10 year stretch….
I can take the investments I have today, which are in non-protected stocks and mutual funds, and move them into low tax, no-tax, and up to the limit Roth IRA’s for her and I. Our income is close to even loosing THAT advantage.
If I let it ride, whenever I do cash in, I will be in a higher tax bracket (at least twice as high as today), based upon the expiration of the Bush tax breaks.
Hope this helps.
No I don’t think our kids have the same opportunity.
Oh and how your Dad worked his way up? That’s GONE. JR.
JR, I’ve done it. Worked up from file room to VP. My Dad worked up from the bottom too. My oldest brother worked up from paper boy, to detassler, to hospital orderly, to…eventually Doctor. Other brother worked up from Private to Gunny to current Mgmt position.
Don’t you or anyone else dare me or anyone else that we CAN’T do anything! Dammit, that’s what’s wrong with America today! Can’t do, Can’t do, Can’t do!
Hell yes WE CAN! And so can anybody who gives it 100% of what they’ve got!
I am so tired of hearing from those who can’t do. There are so many more who are hungry, willing, and able TO DO!
I still have a positive outlook, in spite of the obstacles put in front of me!
You can either stare at that brick wall and cry in your beer, or you can stand up, get a backbone and crash right thru that f*cking brick wall!
THAT is the American Way.
Not having that sort of money I’m in no place to offer advice.
Posted by: J R
Not to seem pushy, but I never offered the blog a dollar amount.
It is significant.
If I cash in now, the government only takes 15%. If wait until the tax laws change, they will take 33%.
Without knowing the dollar value JR, which would be my best choice?
Thanks again.
Max, the Depression had the CCC, and the WPA, and other government projects, that literally created jobs for hundreds of thousands of people who would have been “out on the streets” without such jobs… No, it wasnt the kind of welfare we know now… But, it was welfare, none the less…
As far as people working their way up… check out the current CEO out at Spirit Aviation… I knew him when he was just another kid on the block… and his dad was a teacher…
Hey Max… I worked my way up too… volunteer grass cutter… to custodian in high school… and some in college… then to the Pulpit now… I been there too… MY Dad also turned down a management position when I was a kid… I never understood why he did… But he did… He said it was because he didnt feel right being a “boss” without having a high school diploma…
knew him when he was just another kid on the block… Posted by: Chas
So you KNOW people still can achieve their dreams?
IF the tax laws change, Am Way… BIG IF
Well, if you call that a “dream” I guess so, Am Way
In fact, he just lived about two blocks from where I live still…
Ask Max AMway He’d know better than me.
I’m gonna guess that you also are older than me Max.
Fight? It’s what I live for.
But not the way you do.
I fight against the death of hope. That’s a quantity not much found in the left behind in America.
I’m glad you “made it” Max. However you did it.
Lots of people don’t and through no fault of their own.
I’ve been on here way too long. I gotta go. Again sometime maybe.
Well, this has been fun, all…
Let’s hope we can keep this going… For now, bed time here…
Good Night; Good Luck; God Bless, whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
IF the tax laws change, Am Way… BIG IF
Posted by: Chas.
We know they will. All the democrats have pledged to either raise taxes, and the majority in congress has already stated they will NOT re-new the Bush tax cuts.
The 15% on capital gains will expire.
What would you do? It is a substantial part of our nest egg.
Withdraw now at 15%, or wait until government takes 33%?
You got that right Chas, the CCC and WPA was welfare, BUT they worked to EARN their money.
There is NO EQUIVALENT today.
Sit on your ass, walk to your mailbox or get direct deposit to get your check today.
So, the other kid on the block you knew is now CEO at Spirit Aviation!
I knew a kid on the block too, who is now a multi-millionaire.
Not an uncommon story in America, for now.
Geez JR, it was a pretty simple question. I know you are experienced blogging/posting and all. And are way above the average intelligence.
It’s at least 100K.
Do I give the government 15% which is $15,000?
Or do I wait for hillary and risk giving her 33%, or $33,000?
It’s not rocket science.
Maybe JR you are like Chas., and think possibly the tax breaks Bush enacted, which repealed the largest tax increase in American history under Clinton – will not expire?
I can understand your hesitation at responding if that’s what you believe.
I’m thinking the republicans are done for. It is going to be a democrat in the white house, and most likely in both houses of Congress.
If that is the case – which option would you pick?
Raindrops keep falling on my head. But that doesn’t mean the blog is still in boycott. Red? Crying’s not for me, why? I’ll never ever stop the boycott from dying. That’s cause I’m ME.Nothing worrying me.
Oh where oh where did the boycott go? The lord took it away from me, it’s gone to heaven so I gotta be good.
If the WEBLOG’s gonna see the boycott again.
HEHEHE HAHA
Well I’ve got to get to bed. As they say, I have to earn the money tomorrow to pay more taxes.
Chas. or JR, I’ll check to see which option I should take tomorrow.
It really is simple math.
Crap XXX, if you aren’t gonna be around to review my old Modified Flat Tax proposal, which would be a fair tax on all, and actually increase taxes on the rich with tax shelters and high deductions, then I’ll just leave it for another day.
Maybe XXX you are on the boycott thing.
If so, good riddence.
I’m sure the WE Blog hates all those dang complaint emails they got from liberal cry-baby whiners anyway.
Calling all conservatives then, let’s get all our conservative agenda items out on the table now, while we still can!
I’ll put the Fair Modified Flat Tax Plan out there tomorrow, whether XXX or any other Lib is out there to read it or not!
Well Dumfuksrus, I probably should not be posting to you.
But it will not go under the mattress, I can assure you of that.
Brokers, and financial planners across America are advising middle and upper middle class families, and the elderly on this issue – today.
It is NOT an issue of the sinful and nasty RICH.
It is an issue for the average Joewho bothered to save/invest for their own future.
You will all burn in hell! Not because of religion. But because GW is going to get that freakin hot!
Psst! Here is the secret number for today:
33//12..92//
And we have them all tracked and logged.
Good night, and God Bless, whatever the heck you think God is or isn’t anyway!
Queers, you be damned anyway, to hell with you, and that includes Tom and Capn too!
Posted by: Chas | October 17, 2007 at 10:27 PM
==============================
The above is NOT my post… note there is no underlined blue nic…I hope the Blog Eds stop this crap!!! The Blog has been good all day except for now!! Geez!!
perverted activities!
Posted by: Special Agent 69 Thirsty All The Time
They are only peverted if a republican does them.
If a liberal, who happens to be sexually challenged and is homosexual makes a date in a bathroom – it is AOK.
Freedom will still ring.The socialist will not win.
The silent majority will prevail upon the land.
We have to endure all the noise first.
Havent heard of any Liberal Pervs doing the nasty in bathrooms yet… If they catch them, Boot em out!!
CapnAmerica<——victorious
JM/kansas/Republikhan/Eier/etc
FINISHED.
And the “sock puppet ballet” has taken the stage once again!!
Mental midgets!!
I find it merely pathetic, Chas. A 12-year-old mentality (if not an actual 12-year-old), with SERIOUS ego issues.
How sad.
The foolish people are the ones that think their job isn’t exportable, so they’re safe. In reality, there is a ripple effect when jobs are outsourced. The people who lost their jobs will retrain/seek credentials to perform other jobs or professional careers thus impacting the wage/salary scale on up the line. Also, younger people will steer their education towards the better paying jobs/careers that are left.
Hello James or Jason or Jim.
Gotta give props to Capn. He did the leg work. I just followed up.
Throwning your real name in there. Not smart. Sloppy even. Around the time you melted down and started switching nics. My bad for not catching it.
I called you diminished. Now, what I want to call you is disappeared.
Look how after such usual mischief you did shut up.
From what I read, you do SOME good work. Helping people with computers and all.
You should do that. Your…extracurricular activities are somewhat less redeeming.
“CapnAmerica<——victorious
JM/kansas/Republikhan/Eier/etc
FINISHED.”
Posted by: popup! | October 17, 2007 at 10:46 PM
No… Kansas is just busy reading his decades old, moldy college science textbooks.
Kansas is writing a scientific paper that will conclusively prove that only 2 percent of the global warming in the last few decades is anthropogenic caused — and ALL of the rest is caused by natural factors, such as changes in the Earth’s axis, and solar activity. / sarcasm OFF
In spite of the trash thrown along side the road, this has been an interesting thread.
My father who grew up in the 1930’s and 1940’s in Oklahoma, came to Kansas in 1952 and first worked for a wage of $1.10 per hour at Cessna.
Due to union efforts, his wages increased. My father never joined a union. He had this paranoia that unions were somehow in cahoots with the company.
My mother started working for Cessna when I was in the 7th grade. I thought we were poor, but we lived off of my mother’s salary from the time I was in the 7th grade until I was out of high school. During this time, my father invested his check into various bond programs. In the 70’s & 80’s hospitals could not expand enough, my father invested in those. My dad invested in nuclear power plants and hotels. He had very few deals go bad.
My father now has assets that I believe will look after him and my mother throughout the rest of their lives. I am grateful for that.
My father built the house that me and my family lived in from when I was age 12 until I graduated from high school. When I say built, I mean we went there to that lot and worked on it with our labor every night for nearly two years. I remember digging the footing by hand (or shovel) that went under the foundation.
I recall thinking, when I was in the 6th grade, that I would never build a house by myself, but I would pay someone else to do that.My dad and family moved into our house when it was paid for. Something I have never done, as of yet, anyway.
I wish I was more like my father. I hope I can show my son a better way to go and I hope he listens.
Those posts above are NOT MINE!!! Damn nic stealing sock puppets!!! GEEZ!!!
Grrrrrrrrrrr!!
Cosmos, go into your Lab, and mix up some Troll Repellant!!
They get thick after dark!! Must be vampire Trolls!!
CapnAmerica<——victorious
JM/kansas/Republikhan/Eier/etc
FINISHED.
Posted by: popup! | October 17, 2007 at 10:46 PM
popup! must get so very tired of being constantly wrong.
Throwning your real name in there. Not smart. Sloppy even. Around the time you melted down and started switching nics. My bad for not catching it.
I called you diminished. Now, what I want to call you is disappeared.
Posted by: J R | October 18, 2007 at 12:06 AM
The comment by James Macklin?
lol
I looked that guy up myself after kfg accused me of being him. He has his own web page or did. He evidently is a second amendment guy as all he talks about is guns.
Diminished? I’m still here J R and the Capn has done nothing but put himself in hot water with the Editor for harassing a poster.
I read that some troll mocking the Capn with something about the Capn being associated with TV.
I wonder if the Capn wants to be outed at his job for being such a moron on the WE Blog? Evidently, whoever that poster is, knows quite about the Capn and wouldn’t surprise me to see a story on how a TV associated personality gets outed by some unknown blogger for stalking and harassing on a blog.
It wouldn’t be me as I don’t know who the Capn is -
But to quote J R
“Just saying…”
You might want to leave that one alone, Kansas…
You might want to leave that one alone, Kansas…
Posted by: Chas. | October 18, 2007 at 01:59 AM
Perhaps Chas, but it explains why the Capn doesn’t go to any meetups.
I don’t believe in outing anyone, but that one troll poster sure has something against the Capn that is unknown to me.
I told my kids what my Dad told his 4 sons. You get what you earn. It takes hard work.
Posted by: Max | October 17, 2007 at 08:56 PM
Having a wife with a PHD to support you doesn’t hurt, either.
Nice research Rage and hurray for James Macklin.
But I am not him. My real name(s) doesn’t start with a “J” or “M.”
Some people on this thread owe Mr. Macklin an apology for their accusations.
BTW Rage, that IP is located at:
KANSAS WICHITA WICHITA STATE UNIVERSITY
:)
Some people on this thread owe Mr. Macklin an apology for their accusations.Posted by: Kansas | October 18, 2007 at 08:14 AM
Yes, I agree. Wrongly accusing someone of being _you_ would be a grievous insult to the person accused.
Tell it to haha.: )
I gotta go with Tom on this one. You’d better be damn sure!
How about I contact Mr. Macklin Rage?
That way, he can rip some new butt holes on the blog for using his name on public blog without permission.
I think I will do that.
Heh. . .Be my guest!
You’ll excuse as I step away from the blog for a few hours.
Gotta fly! be back later!
(chortles)
Diminished, yes that’s almost the right word.
And also?
Ewwwwwww….
Kansas,
When will your paper showing that only 2 percent of the global warming the last few decades is from anthropogenic factors — and ALL of the rest is caused by natural factors (axis shift, solar activity, etc) be published? :)
There you have it–a massively swollen ego gratuitously reposting comments from six months ago–comments that were not posted contemporaneously here until YOU posted them.
Also, the name of James Macklin was mentioned first on this thread by Guess Who??:
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/10/open-thread–14.html#comment-86786558
If you’re supposedly so concerned about this innocent person, why repost the comments here? Maybe doing a little scapegoating, hmmmm?
For those who were wondering: The deleted post of mine above compiled a number of very public facts about one James Macklin. There was nothing defamatory, nor indeed anything particularly judgmental (well, apart from a reasonably complimentary assessment of the person’s computer skills).
The only reason for objection would be the hanging inference that this person might be the person who had previously posted here as “JM”.
And the only reason I’m even commenting was to make clear what had transpired.
That’s all I’m going to say about it.
I don’t want to start commenting about this because once I start, I’ll never stop.
My intention was only to present evidence that I believe links the poster JM to the poster RepubliKhansas. If you agree with my evidence, then you must agree that RepubliKhansas is a liar when he says he has never been JM.
In which case he can be ignored as someone who never tells the truth.
His effort to divert this into a non-issue of who is who in real life is typical of his refusal to tell the truth and acknowledge past lying.
He wants to play games. Let him play games.
I for one am just not playing any more . . .
Also, the name of “You know Who” was mentioned first on this thread by Guess Who??: Posted by: Rage | October 18, 2007 at 01:59 PM
Wrong, it was mentioned by the Capn twice, in his initial post and when he posted the second time on this open thread.
I have a copy of the original web page from both days to prove it.========================
So Capn, calling me a liar, you better call yourself a liar. The posters back in the day had a problem with you switching nics and you never told anyone until your confession posts many months later.
As I’ve stated this before Capn, this is an anonymous blog. If a person wants to call himself “Howdy Doody” one day and “Clarabel the Clown” the next, we can criticize it perhaps, but there is nothing we can do about it, nor it is wrong to do.
So Capn, grow up and deal with reality. It’s an issue that you Libs appear to have a hard time dealing with.
Oh and Rage, kfg brought it up in the “Fisters Make a Come Back” posts in April.
In fact, kfg was the first to bring it up.
Outing someone on the WE Blog and then bragging about it.
Liberal Democrats – Hypocrisy is they name
they = thy
I am SO angry with all of you!!
You found out what this….little bit of nothing was while I was away and I’ve been back two weeks and you didn’t TELL me?? Grrrrr! The time I wasted on this….blechhh.
Just kidding. That’s what I get for missing out. Good job all!