I’m curious how the Phelps lawsuit in Maryland will turn out. The freedom of religion and speech protections are broad, which makes me think the Phelps clan will win. But U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett told jurors at the start of testimony Tuesday that they must decide “whether the defendant’s actions would be highly offensive to a reasonable person, whether they were extreme and outrageous, and whether these actions were so offensive and shocking as to not be entitled to First Amendment protection.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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102 Comments
Free speech has limits even in America. You can say it without being imprisoned, however, with libel and slander, you can and SHOULD be held accountable for the words you say.
Freedom of speech is guaranteed but to go out of your way to distant places to get into your face about it, I would say that it looks like a hate crime.
My right to swing my arm forcibly stops at your nose. My right to slander and libel into the free air ceases at your ears. Leave it to the cowardly scum incestuous Phelps clan to scandalize a young American who gave his life for our freedoms. May they rot in hell where they belong.
The Phelps are just expressing the Christian religion, of course it will be offensive to any rational person.
The Phelps’ should win the case. In a free country, you have the right to be offensive, outrageous and an outright asshole. The courts have addressed this issue many times including the Nazis marching through the heavily Jewish village of Shokie Illinois and in the case of Falwell vs Flynt. The Phelps’ are not threatening anybody nor are they breaching the peace when they protest.
Free speech is only granted at a public forum. A graveyard site is hardly a public forum. But any public sidewalk is.
though this is treading on thin ice, it has to be looked at what the intent of the speech is? Religious expression? Political concern? Or is it intended to insight a riot? Phelps speech does tend to fall in the last category. Without action even OBL would have a right in the U.S. to spout his hate fill version of Islam, UNTIL he would call for action, the killing of others and the armed overthrow of the United States government. So does Phelps and his Frisbee style perversion of the Bible, his intent is to cause disorder and confrontation. Physical violence and mayhem to the point when someone looses their ability to control their rage and strike out against his group. Even a Quaker if pushed long enough and hard enough will act against such actions. When it gets to the point where the law and the system does not stop such incitements, it is reasonable for people to take unreasonable acts against his group.
Whew – it’s cranium-scratching time……
The Phelps clan aren’t “breaching the peace?” Causing inordinate pain to someone – AT A FUNERAL – isn’t doing violence to someone’s emotional health?
Help me out here – let’s just say a noted atheist died – and the inbred Phelps cabal picketed his/her funeral. A loved one of the recently deceased nonbeliever experienced an emotional collapse shortly thereafter.
Not breaching the peace? I’d say that’s befouling the peace – I’d say that’s excremental behavior that needs to be punished – severely.
My goodness – there’s a time and a place for callousness. And this ain’t it. I hope the Phelps clan gets the proverbial book thrown at ‘em.
I won’t picket Fast-Buck Freddie’s funeral when he croaks – but I’d like the Maggots, er, maggots to crawl over his flesh when he does.
He should be subject to litigation for slander and harrassment. I hope he loses this one and the family collects…that might make him think about the consequences of his actions. In America you can to say whatever you want, but sometimes there is a price to pay. I can sue someone if they slander me, a person would be fined for yelling “fire” in a movie theater or playing their music too loud, or disturbing the peace just because you want to. There are certain boundries when it comes to free speech, and I say Phelps has crossed them all.
Another thing that pisses me off is that whenever they protest a funeral, our tax money pays for their security. I say it’s time for them to pay for their own.
Distatasteful and even nauseating as it may me, we have to err on the side of free speech.
Phelps is HOPING you will try and shut him up. That church gets its funding suing rigteously indignant folk.
I know it’s hard. But we need to let Phelps speak. And we need to laugh at him when he does.
Be sure; his inbred family and followers are reading what we post here. Let them know what you really think of them.
Of course it exceeds 1st Amendment protection as it is harmful harassment of others. Also, the subject of their ‘free speech’ can be expressed in other avenues without doing harm to others.
I don’t agree with you on this one, JR. He’s been a bully for too long and it’s time he had some real consequences…he needs to be hit in the wallet, because money has a lot of power.
Mary people trying to shut him up is how he makes the money for that “church”. Too, he gets off on it.
I’ll read the link and see if there is anything new here. Meanwhile?
I got the big one finger salute for Mr. Phelps. His female followers are invited to fantasize about that.
“But U.S. District Judge Richard Bennett told jurors at the start of testimony Tuesday that they must decide “whether the defendant’s actions would be highly offensive to a reasonable person, whether they were extreme and outrageous, and whether these actions were so offensive and shocking as to not be entitled to First Amendment protection.”
—————–
That language allows a lot of interpretation. As a “reasonable person”, I would think the Phelp’s actions could fit. But the problem is, so would a lot of other things that are offensive, yet generally accepted free speech. For instance, some would contend that certain Gay Pride events would also fit.
You should be careful which doors you open.
Ok I read the link.
This MAY be different. We will have to wait to hear from our legally versed posters.
This is an individual not trying to shut Phelps up but instead claiming damage and hardship DUE to Phelps’s group after the fact.
Make no mistake, I hope they take Phelps for every dime. But do remembet, attention is what these miscreants crave above all.
Ignore the freak.Let him be the bitter, angry, twisted old man he is.ALL BY HIMSELF.NUFF SAID.
I think this case comes to subject matter versus medium.
If the Phelps clan were at the same funeral, with the same size placards, in the same locations, making the same amount of noise – all the same circumstances EXCEPT they had a different message, would their behavior be OK? If they were protesting the US foreign policy in Rwanda, for example. Would that be acceptable?
My general rule is that if the speech would be protected when the message is X, the speech must be protected when the message is Y.As much as I despise the Phelps and their message, I think the First Amendment protects their right to deliver it.
That does not mean anyone has to listen, that does not mean media sources should advertise their shenanigans by reporting on them, it does not mean anyone has to receive their message, only that they can spew it forth without the government saying their message cannot be publicly said because it is disagreeable.
Requiring permits for demonstrations etc… should be required. Prosecuting it as a hate crime or perhaps some obscure application of the RICO law sounds like a good idea.
It certainly is a scar on the Kansas image.
Since it is a civil suit, it wouldn’t set a precedent for anything other than the same kind facts and circumstances, right?
I can’t help but wonder what kind of a reception Phelps long overdue funeral will elicit? Perhaps a classic example of what comes around, goes around? Assuming of course, that Mother Earth will accept him!
“But do remembet, attention is what these miscreants crave above all.”
Sidebar:Also applies to the Beagle and the “BTK” link on the web page. Next time we should hear about him are any parole hearing notices or an obituary.
ken,
Agreed. But I like to see that reporting standard (’parole hearing notices or an obituary’) extended to Dick Cheney.
J R,
“Be sure; his inbred family and followers are reading what we post here.”
Indeed. Phelps is kind of the Warren Jeffs of the Prairie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs
hee hee hee CF!
I think they sure are distrubing the peace, but then, all protests do if they are effective.
As much as I dispise this christian church and the nut jobs who populate and fund it, I think they have a right to protest. It’s horrible for the families of the dead, and for christians in general. Decent people wouldnt do it.
But America is so great, we can withstand this assault on decency in order to apply justice equally. Something the phelps cult gets just by being Americans, even though they live to DENY equal justice for others. The true American paradox.
Of course, I have a bias here.
Every time the phelps’ raise their reptillian heads…
…the gay “agenda” coffers swell.
We have said for YEARS that they are consistantly our best fundraising tool. And they are. You can track it.
Everytime they open their vile mouths, a gay angel gets it’s wings. And a gold credit card, good for karma for eternity.
So please, let this church and its cultist rant on.
The queers need the money!
“Everytime they open their vile mouths, a gay angel gets it’s wings. And a gold credit card, good for karma for eternity.”
Hilarious!
According to Barna 71% of Americans believe in the existence of Hell. So Phelps is preaching what 71% of Americans believe. Phelps is also preaching what is a basic platform of the Republican party, that gays are evil sinners who must be persecuted, and that represents about half the voting public. Phelps lives in a state where people are predominately Christian and Republican and share the stage with fellow funeral protester groups like Operation Rescue and anti-gay protesters like Spirit One Christian Center, Terry Fox and Joe Wright.
So it looks like people want to punish Phelps for being an honest Christian and speaking out about what the Christian religion really promotes.
Yup, our Constitution gives the freedom for religious kooks like the Krazy Kristian Klub to promote their stupid beliefs like any other religion. So don’t turn to the government to solve your problems, clean your own churches and dogma.
Great post Doug!
“According to Barna 71% of Americans believe in the existence of Hell. So Phelps is preaching what 71% of Americans believe. Phelps is also preaching what is a basic platform of the Republican party, that gays are evil sinners who must be persecuted, and that represents about half the voting public. Phelps lives in a state where people are predominately Christian and Republican and share the stage with fellow funeral protester groups like Operation Rescue and anti-gay protesters like Spirit One Christian Center, Terry Fox and Joe Wright.Posted by: Doug | October 26, 2007 at 10:11 AM ”
Doug you make an interesting point. While few ‘civilized’ people would do what Phelps does, the way he does it, I think there are more than a few people, especially here in Kansas, that empathize with his message (or various parts of it).The Phelps’ know that because of that, and their First Amendment right to free speech, they will never get in trouble for what they say.They also know the law inside and out (know one knows the law like someone trying to operate on the boundaries of it.)
I think this case may actually have a chance, if the focus is on their intent to inflict emotional pain and suffering. Criminally, they probably are not prosecutable, but civilly, something like this could win.
I agree that everybody has free speech, but I don’t agree with Phelp’s statements. Being a Christian myself, I really can’t believe anything that comes out his his mouth, but he does have every right to say it. I can’t put a muzzle on him or his supporters but I can put ear plugs in mine!
That is the awful truth of the phelps cult, and that is why folks in kansas want to shut them up.
They TRUELY represent more than seventy percent of kansans, who differ with phelps only by degree.
The majority of kansans do agree with the message. And when they see the message reflected back to them?
They still agree, they just dont want to look in the mirror. Hell, they’ll run to the nanny government and beg them to break the mirror.
KFG, you are right in that the Phelps’ and most Kansans believe that homosexuality is wrong. But this is not about homo or hetero or any other kind of sexuality. It is about the abuse of the families of our fallen soldiers. It is about decency.
Now if you and Doug want to go out of the way to get your untruthful little cheap shots in at Christians, fine. Folks like you have a right to their say too.
Heheheeh. Right on cue. Thanks for making my point for me outie. You admit you only differ with phelps by degree. As do almost 3/4 of kansans.
“But this is not about homo or hetero or any other kind of sexuality. It is about the abuse of the families of our fallen soldiers. It is about decency.”
Excuse me?
The phelps christians do this because of their hatred of gays. They abuse the solders BECAUSE they think homosexuality is wrong.
This is ALL about homosexuality and religious bigotry.
No one gave a DAMN when they were doing this at the funerals of gay people. I guess THEIR families are not as deserving as the families of soldiers?
Thanks for making all this clear outie. Wanna swing the first hammer at the mirror? I know you hate that reflection…
Or maybe not. Maybe worse. Maybe you identify with it and enjoy its accuracy?
outlander, where has anything untruthful been posted?
“Now if you and Doug want to go out of the way to get your untruthful little cheap shots in at Christians, fine.”
Cheap shots? So saying that Christians like the Phelps are promoting Christian beliefs that gays are going to burn in hell unless they repent and turn to Jesus is a cheap shot? That’s what I hear preached by many Christians. Has the Christian religion changed recently?
The Phelps are doing at the funerals what Christians do on the street corners, in the churches, at schools, and in foreign lands so how are the Phelps doing anything unusual?
Outlander, your problem clearly isn’t with me, it’s with Christians. The Phelps are just spreading the word of god and the bible as Christians have done in America since the Spaniards came over (well, without the killing, raping and spreading of disease).
I don’t care what their motivation is KFG. They could do this because they dislike mexican folks or because they got bad pizza last night. That would make as much sense as an excuse for what they are doing.
“The sting in any rebuke is the truth”.
I’m afrain Benjamin Franklin and kfg have you here outlander.
Ya know I’ve said it before and I say it again. I think Fred is gay. Either that or he had some real sexually related event or trauma at some point. We’ve seen this again and again.
Doug: Isn’t the Phelps’ message that this (fill in the event) is God’s punishment for allowing homosexuality in our country? They are practicing hate. There is nothing in the teachings of Christ that would justify that kind of behavior.
And just to clarify, evangelical Christianity believes that it is not the sin that condemns a person. Because we are all sinners. It is their decision not to accept the grace of God in the person of Christ.
Now there will always be those Christians who think they are better than others and judge them sinners. Well, they need not have looked any farther than themselves to find a sinner.
The Phelps aren’t doing anything different. Gays were responsible for the flood in New Orleans, gays were responsible for the fires in California, gays were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. All of those claims weren’t just made by the Phelps. The views of the Phelps are shared by millions in America and many Kansans shared the views of the Phelps when they voted against marriage for gays. Sorry bub, it’s your religion, the reverend just happens to be preaching what you are too afraid to admit to yourself, your religion is one of hate.
Well sadly for you Doug, you are mistaken. I’ve done my part.
Christianity is a very big bucket to put a lot of different ideas in. Phelps is one flavor, outlander’s ‘evangelical Christianity’ is another, normal Protestant Christianity is still different from those, and Catholicism is different from all the above.
So my friends, you are right in that Phelps is preaching ‘Christianity’ and you are wrong that Phelps is preaching ‘Christianity’
Can’t wait for one of the phelps clan to kick the bucket, then we can picket their funeral and claim God killed em because they’re homo.
“Can’t wait for one of the phelps clan to kick the bucket, then we can picket their funeral and claim God killed em because they’re homo.
Posted by: stumper | October 26, 2007 at 11:56 AM ”
now THAT would be funny. I am in for it. I think it could be the biggest protest ever.
Alvin McEwen: LGBT’s of color have been kicked off the bus & told to find our own way home:…When Obama first included McClurkin in his campaign, he made him himself look like a hypocrite. Here is a man who onced addressed homophobia in the black church now inviting a purveyor of it to raise money for him via a series of black gospel concerts.
And when he is criticized for this decision, he seeks to soothe wounded feelings by inviting an openly gay white pastor to take part.
So on one side of Obama is Donnie McClurkin, who represents the black church. On the other side is Pastor Sidden, who represents the lgbt community.
That is the wrong symbol to put forth.
Inviting an openly gay black pastor would have been an excellent way to demonstrate the commonalities between the lgbt and African-American struggles for self-determination.
Obama’s clumsy invitation to Pastor Sidden only perpetuates the myth that being black and being gay are two separate identities that don’t overlap.
Furthermore, it means that folks like myself (lgbts of color) are once again shown how invisible we are.
No. More than that.
We have been given the hook, pushed to the side, had the trapdoor to the alligator pit released under our feet.
LGBTs of color haven’t been just pushed to the back of the bus in this controversy. We have been kicked off of the bus and told to find our own way home….
http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2007...
Religious bigotry comes in all flavors. It used to support slavery and attack dogs and fire hoses.
How quickly we forget…
Understand by picketing their funeral we would be stooped to their level. These protesters have a right, even if I would enjoy lighting the whole crew on fire!
Again I don’t agree with what they are saying, but at the same time I believe we can all make a judgement against ourselves. We weren’t created equal, which gives us the statement that somebody will always be against us.
Phelps does have 1st amendment right ill give him that. But that also extends to people who oppose him. If he so offensive why dont the Baptists vote to defrock or remove their sanction on him being a minister. And the phelps make less money by suing indivuials(I dont think they can ever win) than the fact that many phepls children work for the State and give all their salary to the church and the church pays their expenses so they get nice tax breaks. So some dipshit in HR at the state gave these scumbags jobs. and the taxpayers of KAnsas fund these assholes. ANd my favorite Phelps video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZGKx2pTBQc
Tom — Phelps “Baptist” Church is an independent one, I believe. I dont think he is a part of a denomination, thus, the only ones who could defrock him would be his own congregation. Sort of makes defrocking him a moot point.
However, if all these Christians who are opposed to what he says would sound off as loud as they do about some “adult store” that sells things they dont like, maybe it would send a clear message.
What I am seeing here is a bunch of folks saying, I am a Christian; I dont agree with Phelps; but he has a right to say it.
If you’re not for him, then be against him. If you’re for him, then you’re against most folks.
I cannot understand why they are not fired from the State. Being a jerk is not an EEO protected class.
I also cannot understand why the IRS does not revoke the Westboro Baptist Church’s tax exempt status. They clearly engage in political activities.
I think a lot of the reason Phelps is still around is explained in Doug’s post at 10:11, mine at 10:45, and ksfarmgrrl’s at 10:51
EEO does protect reiligon and no doupt they would hide behind that. And the state lacks the conojones to fire the Phelp’s
An EEO case because someone is fired because of their religion can be hard to win for the person alleging it.
I do agree the state has no balls to do anything to the Phelps’
See my post at 1:03 for why.
Homosexuality is wrong and you will be sentenced to hell for being gay just like you will be sentenced to hell for stealing a cookie from the cookie jar if you don’t believe that Jesus Christ came to earth and died on the cross for your sins and you repent and fully give those sins to God. Sexual impurity is no worse than having hatred in your heart because no sin is greater than the other.
The Phelps cult clan is out for one thing – publicity. If the media keeps giving them attention, they will never stop.
Does anyone know? When they protest these funerals, are they given a permit or something? I notice they are kept away from the main event – is there someway that once given a permit, then 10 foot plywood walls could be constructed where they’re supposed to be? It wouldn’t stop them from their free speech (they could still be heard) but it would send the message that their ‘message’ is not welcome.
eating shellfish will sentence you to hell if you don’t believe that Jesus Christ came to earth and died on the cross for your sins and you repent and fully give those sins to God
Hate is not a family value – nor a Christian one. The Phelps Clan represent the worst of the Evangelical Christian Movement.
There were times I thought I was going to hell for eating MREs! It was a close call and then I recovered.
Designer lies by Doug….”Phelps is also preaching what is a basic platform of the Republican party, that gays are evil sinners who must be persecuted”
You may hear that, Doug, but that is not what the Republican party represents. Post a link to the Rebublican platform and plank that says that, or go to your room.
And, because we are a free country (no thanks to people like Doug, though) Doug can even make that idiotic remark in a blog like this.
Not even the Christians I know feel that way. To the contrary, the Christians I know do not distinguish between gay or straight, white or non-white, rich or non-rich. The Phelps family think of themselves as prophets. The bible warns of false prophets, so we even pray for the Phelps family that they are given the wisdom to know their own sin and ask for forgiveness before their short time on earth ends.
Personally, I’m praying for people like Doug, asking God to give them the wisdom and intellectual honesty that will help them turn their misinformed ideologoical energy into actions that trully make this world a better place.
No eating shellfish will only give you the proper vitamins and minerals your body needs. But having impure thoughts about your boyfriend while eating them will. Sorry that was below the belt, let me rephrase, a low blow, let me rephrase…nevermind you get it.
I lost a friend in Iraq, but didn’t find out until after his funeral. If I would have gone to his funeral, and they were protesting it, I would have taken a couple of those idiots out!
I totally agree with (Doug from | October 26, 2007 at 01:12 PM) you have to believe in Jesus Christ, and no sin is worse than any other sin! They are equal in God’s eyes!
ID, check out the Republican Party Platform from 2004 page 85.
http://www.issues2000.org/Archive/2004_GOP_Platform_Civil_Rights.htm
Hating gays is part of the Republican party platform. Once again one of my “lies” turns out to be the truth.
Have the Legal Eagles weighed in on the law suit?
The Phelps’ have a constitutional right to protest and I think that the court will and should side with them in this case. The 1st Amendment does not allow for restrictions based on the content of the message or the venue of the protest.
For the posters that claim these protests cross some line of decency based on the harassment and offense toward the soldier’s family, do you feel that pro life protests outside abortion clinics should be banned also? The protesters that stand outside abortion clinics with their disgusting pictures and their hateful, harrasing comments directed toward patients and clinic employees are just as bad or worse. If the soldier’s families deserve protection from harassment during an emotionally difficult event, don’t doctors, nurses and pregnant women deserve the same treatment and protection from the same type of hate filled rhetoric?
The Phelp’s violate every aspect of Christianity and decency with their extremist actions and language on their signs. Why else would the Baptists Churches in the state be changing their names so as to not be associated with Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church.
REPEAT AFTER ME
Phelps is a Democrat….Phelps is a Democrat….Phelps is a Democrat…
“No eating shellfish will only give you the proper vitamins and minerals your body needs. But having impure thoughts about your boyfriend while eating them will. Sorry that was below the belt, let me rephrase, a low blow, let me rephrase…nevermind you get it.
Posted by: brian | October 26, 2007 at 01:33 PM ”
Yay! I have finally made it to the big-time! I have been trolled!
Hey glockster:
What does being a democrat have to do with anything?
You can be a repubician and think the same thing!
“For the posters that claim these protests cross some line of decency based on the harassment and offense toward the soldier’s family, do you feel that pro life protests outside abortion clinics should be banned also? ..
If the soldier’s families deserve protection from harassment during an emotionally difficult event, don’t doctors, nurses and pregnant women deserve the same treatment and protection from the same type of hate filled rhetoric?
Posted by: Scott | October 26, 2007 at 02:59 PM”
The Phelps and abortion protestors with the graphic images and rude behavior fall into the exact same category of putrid acts.Workers at abortion clincs, their clients, and anyone else who goes in there should have the same protections from harrassment afforded to the military families
Hating gays is part of the Republican party platform. Once again one of my “lies” turns out to be the truth.
Posted by: Doug | October 26, 2007 at 02:26 PM
Doug I couldn’t find the line about hating gays. Can you help me out?
Raised Eyebrows
They don’t hate _____, there are plenty of rights for them. They just think _____ should not mix with the ‘rest of us.’ Separate but equal is fair, right?
We have the same rights, but different views of the rights. Does that mean we get rid of them?
“Does that mean we get rid of them?
Posted by: awinters | October 26, 2007 at 04:18 PM ”
Could you clarify the object of ‘them’ in your sentence?
The people that have different looks on life then us. Like people that think gay is cool, or abortion is alright.
We really can’t get rid of them, because we are just as guilty in their eyes too.
Ignore him and if that does’nt work…snuff him
I think gmc has been trolled too
Christianity has taken some wrong turns and as always it is man’s doing. Moving away from the words of God they hear in their hearts and using the words in a book to justify evil. True Christianity is a faith and not a matter of a book written by men whom over time has been written and rewritten. Sadly people like Phelps, Fox, Roberts had lost the true lessons of God. The real meaning of the words in the Bible, confusing the passages with a call for action against those they should be standing with. The passages about homosexuality are directed to people of the faith and not to the nonbelievers. If you are of the faith then you should not do this or that. More then the soul of the neighbor, a Christian should be concern for their own soul first.
A little history of the Moslem faith I have learned, I think it was Mohammad that said there is the greater and lesser Jihads. The greater Jihad is for one’s own soul and being and is the foremost of all Jihads. In fact is takes a life time to win, if one has not won the greater Jihad then one should not take on the lesser.
No one person speaks for all Christians not more then just one woman speaks for all Lesbians. But far more then it disturbs me to have other condemn my faith, it disturbs me more that there are others who claim to be of my faith and use it for their own goals. As such only fuels the hatred of those that would condemn my faith. For it makes them seem more right in their condemnation.
I am a Christian, I am a republican, I am a human being and there are those that would condemn me for not other reason. Yet have I condemn you for not being a Christian, not being a Republican? Though I make find fault with you be human, it is the curse of the species and not yours alone.
Phelps should be condemn for his stance and actions, but he is alone in it as the others whom have taken my faith to a point of damnation. But when someone damns the entire faith or party for the acts of a few who claim it. Your large net also catches me….
Agree, writedog
” but he is alone”
Is he alone or not alone?
With a NIC like writerdog, you should be able to write coherently.
Maybe your father skills are as bad as your writing ability. Why else would your son defy your logic?
“”"Free speech is only granted at a public forum. A graveyard site is hardly a public forum. But any public sidewalk is.”"”
The Phelps’ only use public right of way. They do not follow the funeral procession into the cemetary.
Do Phelps protests exceed bounds of First Amendment?
Only when I disagree with them.
“Doug I couldn’t find the line about hating gays. Can you help me out?
Raised Eyebrows”
No, because you are clearly being intentionally ignorant. I bet you thought laws that prevents Blacks from marrying Whites was not done out of hate, or the Nuremburg law that prevented Germans from marrying Jews. Keep on living in your bubble of ignorance, that’s what keeps you voting Republican.
Doug I was just asking where you got the statement you told us was fact. It wasn’t there. You didn’t agree with some of the text. Well just consider that people are allowed to have beliefs that differ from yours. It doesn’t mean anyone hates you or anyone else. It just means that after looking at the whole picture they don’t agree with you. Simple enough.
Last year (about this time of year, actually) I was arrested for counter-protesting a Phred Felps demonstration at a local funeral home.
Apparently, the police were more interested in Phred’s 1st Amendment rights than in mine.
Why?
Probably because Phred has more lawyers on his side. The charges against me were later dismissed. But had they taken me to court I would have hired the Phelps Law Firm to defend me. It coulda been a media circus. After all, I was doing exactly what Phred does.
Anyway, the 1st Amendment does not exist to defend *acceptable* speech. If it were limited to that, there wouldn’t need to be a 1st Amendment.
That Phred has cloaked his hatred in a pretty much standard fundamentalist theology reveals just how insane this nation’s acceptance of theology is when it confronts a non-theological system of government as spelled out by the Constitution of the United States of America.
Believe what you want in your private life. If Jehova or Bonzo the Sun God works for you… solid. But your beliefs in the supernatural must not be an influence of constitutionality.
As horrific as it is to experience firsthand — and I have — Phred’s got a right to say it. But I have a right to say it’s bulls#it. But that day a year ago, I was the one arrested and carted off to jail.
If Phelps get let off the hook on this one, then why did they not support the FREE SPEECH of that kid in Alaska, with the “Bongs for Jesus” poster?? And that kid wasnt even doing hate speech!
Well, good night; good luck; and God bless, whatever you conceive God to be!
Blessings all!!
“But he is alone in it as the others whom have taken my faith to a point of damnation“.
Pat I apologies, they will not let me use pictures to illustrate for you. Phelps being alone in this mean for his particular use of the Bible. As for the rest of the statement, they may use the same passages for their point. But do so in a different way or tactic, the followers of Pastor Fox point out that Phelps picketed outside of Immanuel against Fox. In some ways their complain against Phelps is the same one I have against Fox.
But each have their own motive and method, in the end they all have the same effect upon the title “Christian”.
As for my fathering skills, my son used logic that is constituent with my own. Once he explained his logic I could see it clearly. His willingness to submit to being sent to that war he did not himself supports.
Preacher: So is your faith build on a faith in God or in a faith in a book? Too often people hold the Bible up in front of them as the shining proof of God. Though admit it was written by men with the declaimer that it is the inspired word of God. The Bible should be taken as a handbook for the believer, not the proof of the existence of God. The whole cornerstone of faith is to believe in something that the eye can not see. Otherwise it takes no faith to believe, thus there is no miracle of faith and as such no rebirth to a holy spirit.
When someone places the book in front of them, they can block the seeing of God and his wonder. This also falls into the commandment “Thou shall not worship graven images”. Those weak in faith need a crutch to believe. Those strong in faith need only to witness the wonderment of God. A book can be burnt, torn and washed out, a faith can stand the fury of nature and the reasoning of man.
writerdog: It appears that you may be mistaking faith in “a book” with faith in the words that this book contains. If you had not heard these words, would you have believed?
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” John 1:1
Outlander in a word “yes”.
Doug, you try and compare all Christians to Phelps. And then try to promote homsexuality as a good. It is still wrong, you cannot justify it as it stands so you bring Phelps into the picture. The same is with ksfarmgirl, I am sure she would like Phelps to be there a long time so that she also can have something to reassure herself from time to time. What would liberals do without Phelps, they cannot find someone to whom they can compare the Christians to and then go back to thinking they are angels.
Excuse me, john..but there are many negative faces in Christianty: Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Benny Hinn…I could go on and on. Fred Phelps is just the extreme example of Christianity being used as a weapon for hatred and intolerance.Unfortunately, this is the face of Christianity today, and it’s not the Christianity that I loved and grew up with. The Christian faith has been bastardized by those who put money and power before God.
john_stone, you are STILL insane. Say hey to aaron for me, will ya?
I just love when you post. Please, post more often. Like phelps, you show us all the true face of your church.
John, I’ve never promoted homosexuality much less heterosexuality. As for they Phelps, they are Christian, even have their own Baptist church and nifty titles like Reverend. Perhaps you were reading some other post than mine.
“it’s not the Christianity that I loved and grew up with. The Christian faith has been bastardized by those who put money and power before God.”
I remember real joy from moments in “the church” as I was growing up:
Jesus loves the little children.
He’s got the WHOLE world in his hands.
Nothing can take you from the love of God.
Expressions of faith in God’s Incarnation, that He loved the World so much He sent His only begotten Son. I see none of this in existence in fundamentalist Christianity, today. Discussing the Gospels with an Evangelical is an impossibility that degenerates into frequent references to Paul and the Old Testament.
But they will tell you that wealth is an indication of God’s favor. That power makes right. You SHOULD do a thing just because you can. Apparently, doing it makes it right. They are forgiven their trespasses … Well, yeah, THEY are forgiven THEIR trespasses – a reason why someone else isn’t is always not only offered but insisted upon.
And God has not got the WHOLE World in His hands. And there’s plenty of stuff that takes YOU from the love of God, but not THEM. It’s as if they’ve grown incapable of identifying with the people God became incarnate for to redeem. And yet, they want us to believe they know what’s best for us.
Man, I feel sorry for them …
We were on a public sidewalk 1000 feet away holding our signs “Thank God for Dead Troops”, “God Hates Fags” and “You’re going to Hell” among others. We always stand on ppublic right of ways, we do not intrude on private locations. The entire town practically lined the procession routes holding signs saying the dead Marine (whom many did not know) was a hero or is in heaven. He published the funeral in the local paper, hundreds of strangers attneded to praise his son. 6 people stood, out of sight of the procession, holding the lone oppposition.
Anyhow, Thank God for 10.9 million dollar judgments, Thank God for Maryland juries that hate us. Too bad for them that God still hates fags, America is still a fag country, fags still doom nations, ergo, this changes nothing. America is still doomed. Invest in body bags, you’re gonna need ‘em!
Since Dahmer, Chester Stiles and Timothy McVeigh were in the military shouldn’t we make it illegal to say they aren’t heroes, too?
If that really IS you Mara.
I invite you to crawl back under your rock. You lady, make me feel dirty just breathing the same air as I do. I sure as hell don’t want to share a blog with you.
Why not go look under your kitchen sink and mix a nice cocktail from what you find there? Be creative and then drink deep.
Scum
Mara,I invite you to stick around. I am curious to know where your beliefs originate from.
I’m sorry brian.
Of course you are correct.
It was a reactive revulsion for which I….explain if not apologize.
God has a special place for people like Mara, it’s called “hell.”
It seems Mara, that the central message of your particular take on faith is that “god hates fags”.
Not being homosexual, I am wondering if there are others that God hates. And if you think so, who are they? And how is it you know?
:)
You’ve gotta go back to the origins of Phred Felps’ “ministry.”
He had a dozen kids and decided to declare himself a church. The IRS code gives all sorts of tax cuts to churches and religions and pastors… and Phred milked it for all it was worth.
He sent his kids door-to-door selling candy to benefit the Westboro Baptist Church’s “youth programs,” which were, of course, Phred’s spawn.
Comes the 80s and the IRS finally caught up with Phred’s tax scam. Without a definitive theology, the Felps Compound was doomed to lose its tax benefits. About the same time, the weathercaster at Topeka’s Channel 13 was caught cruising Gage Park for gay sex.
Phred found his theology: “God hates fags!”
Argue all you want about his tactics, but Phred does have a couple of verses in Leviticus on which he can base his “theology.”
Forget for a moment that Leviticus considers homosexuality to be a sin equivilent to eating a shrimp cocktail or a ham sandwich. No, Phred had a cause… a theology based on real Bible verses.
And that’s been his constitutional cover ever since.
I’ll be damned if I can explain Phred’s theological devolution to “Thank God for Dead Soldiers,” but he’s a pretty crafty lawyer and he’ll make the case sound somehow logical until you actually think about it.
But I know the origins of his “theology.” It a tax scam. Always has been.