Kudos to President Bush for going ahead with a planned meeting Tuesday with the Dalai Lama, the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader and Nobel Peace Prize laureate, over the bitter objections of Chinese leaders.
“We solemnly demand that the U.S. cancel the extremely wrong arrangements,” said the Chinese foreign minister of plans by Congress to honor the Dalai Lama with a Congressional Gold Medal.
China isn’t in a position to demand or dictate whom the United States chooses to honor. To most of the civilized world, the Dalai Lama is a revered moral leader and symbol of Tibetan independence from Chinese tyranny.
Honoring him sends a strong message that the United States values human rights and political and religious freedom. Those bedrock principles aren’t negotiable.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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65 Comments
So its OK for Bush to piss of China but bad for Congress to piss of Turkey? And good for Bush I wish more Americans took a screw China attitude they are a brutal tolitarian dictatorship that has way to much influence on American society.
You know it is really ashamed that the USA cannot do the right thing without having to worry about who we “offend”. I don’t give a damn if China or Turkey are offended about anything. Yes Bush was right to meet him but even then they have refused to release the official photos of the visit for fear of “offending” China. What is China going to do? Kick our ass?
Ya, China could kick our ass. But I don’t think we need to kiss their butts either. I don’t want to see us doing business with China, that’s all. As far as military relations…as long as they stay on their end and we stay on ours…it’s all good till they fix their human rights issues.
It isn’t a good idea to think we are all alone in the world though either. We need allies and it’s not a good idea to end those alliances unless there is a darn good reason.
Putin has given us a good reason. We should break up with Russia. But we should strengthen our ties with the European nations. Germany, France, etc.
Maybe Putin has a good point of leading by example… Maybe he is trying to show us that we might well do better by being “big brother” to the world’s nations, than by trying to be the strict evil step-mother(father)???
“Honoring him sends a strong message that the United States values human rights and political and religious freedom. Those bedrock principles aren’t negotiable.”
Those bedrock principles were unknown in Tibet when the lamas ruled it.
Why does Bush meeting with the Dalai Lama show that the US cares about human rights? If Bush really cared about human rights, then Bush would take better care of the US citizens and stop trying to tell the rest of the planet how to live.
Bush needs to practice what he preaches.
Why not met with him?
The democrats are starting a war with Turkey, Bush might as well start one with China.
Tom:
Turkey v. China? Is there a difference? Yes. Political reality.
China’s oppression of Tibet is current and ongoing; Turkey’s sins were 100 years ago, when Turkey was part of the Ottoman Empire.
And Turkey is an ally, with the American military using Turk bases for operations in Iraq. Any American bases is China? Any impact on ongoing operations? I didn’t think so.
Gosh . . . any difference there?
(muttering . . . none so blind as those who will not see . . .)
Saw the Dalai Lama on 60 minutes. Cool guy.
Why he wants to meet with the moron bush I can’t imagine.
China is in a stronger position to affect the lives of Americans than is Turkey. We are dependent upon China for our everyday ‘necessities’, a bush admin development. They’re neck deep in our money, and are financing to a large extent our deficit spending. Don’t mess with China! We are buying Turkey’s cooperation in the Iraq effort.
Heh, I love it. He’ll meet with the Dali Lama but he wont meet with Cindy Sheehan?
Incoming flames at 3..2..1..
I’m sorry! I know that the Dalai Lama is all holy and all of that, but if anybody has ever read what the Lama class did to the peasants of Tibet, you will understand why China came in and rescued them.
China is oppressing the Tibetians? Yeah Right! Their condition is a million times better now then when the Lama’s ruled it. The Lama class were brutal and all the Dalai Lama wants is his control back of Tibet so the Lama class can rule once again in their oppressive ways.
We are dependent upon China for our everyday ‘necessities’, a bush admin development.
Oh pa-lease! Trade started w/China when Tricky Dicky took a little trip. Continued right on through Bill Clinton.
We never want to go to war with China, however we need not worry about them.
China is enjoying a huge growth their middle class (300 million people). The capitalist system is growing and their exports to the US far exceed imports. (who approved NAFTA and free trade?) These people hunger for the modern way of life, they thrive on the internet and eat at Micky D’s.
Without firing a shot, all Bush has to do is THREATEN to cut trade with the giant -
and they will meekly go away.
They need us.
They need us?
Yeah like a dealer meeds a junkie they need us.
Joe–
Do you have a link showing repression under the Buddhist rule in Nepal?
Hard to imagine these pacifistic vegetarians as being repressive, but I guess it’s possible.
Where did you hear about it?
US Trade with China in millions of dollars for 2007:
TOTAL Exports 41,230.2
TOTAL Imports 205,062.3
TOTAL Trade deficit -163,832.0
The goods and services we are importing could be manufactured in the US. In fact, those opposed to NAFTA and free trade, would love to cut China off. Theory is to provide jobs to Americans and keep our dollars here. I don’t believe there is anything China is providing we could not do for ourselves. Nothing crippling.
However, on the China side, it would devastate their economy for the US and our allies, to cut them off.
So yeah, I think I can support my earlier remarks.
GMC,Very poignant points about the differences between our situation with Turkey and with China.
The deal with Turkey would be analogous to the EU passing a resolution labeling the United State’s treatment of American Indians in the 1800’s with the forced relocations and Indian Removal policies as an ‘ethnic cleansing’.
Who could object to that? Historical fact is historical fact.
China is the worlds manufacturer, they could survive with out our markets now. Why do you think Mattel had to apologize to them?
American Way,It would be more supportive of your arguement to show what % of China’s total export that the US comprises.
“Why do you think Mattel had to apologize to them?”
no shit
And the Chinese are culturally more attached to saving face than the Turks, even though NO one likes to be humiliate by past mistakes.
And WTF would make this better? If Turkey apoligizes? Geez. Even if such a resolution were passed by the EU, I dont think the US would retaliate.
Too many “why should we care what the world thinks” wingnuts here…
Yes, we COULD manufacture in the US again. But.. those pesky free markets and capitalism quirks here.
It would be so expensive to retool and rebuild, that we couldnt be competitive. And hell, as noted on other threads today, the US already doesnt have enough WARM BODIES, much less QUALIFIED warm bodies to do the mfg work.
Unless you are suggesting closed markets and artificial price supports here to rebuild our mfg industries? Subsidized wages, and government subsidies to rebuild our mfg infrastructure?
You wouldnt be advocating corporate welfare for the common good, now would ya?
heheheh. I love when people support pure capitalism and free markets.
Until they dont…
…and dont give me that “if wages were higher, people would change jobs” line.
The total pool of workforce available is shrinking every day. And the demographics say that without a new influx of workers, it will continue to shrink.
Population. It’s a wonderful thing… We aint birthin’ too many workers here in the good ol’ usa. Shifting workers from one industry to another is a zero sum game doomed to fail.
So.. how do you propose to expand the available workforce in the US without immigration or exporting the work.
Enquring minds want to know..
And what do the Chinese import from us?
Food.
Something we are growing less and less of, thanks to urban sprawl and ethanol. And the way our ag subsidies work.
I know I cant find the link right now, but the US has become a net importer of grain, not a NET exporter.
WTF?
“It would be more supportive of your arguement to show what % of China’s total export that the US comprises.” Posted by: brian
Maybe, but include all our allies who would go with us.
All I was doing was supporting my statement that they need us more than we need them.
“I love when people support pure capitalism and free markets. Until they dont…” Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
ksfarmgrrl don’t put words in my mouth (excuse me if you were referring to a another poster). I did not advocate cutting off trade. But if we did – it would never cross my mind for the nanny government to attempt to “retool” America. Supply and demand would still work just fine as today under the capitalist system. Sometimes I think you no longer believe business people, entrepreneur, and just plain old Americans are capable of functioning and prospering without nannies help.
I mean, just because you can’t think of how everything would or should work, doesn’t mean other Americans can’t.
“Maybe, but include all our allies who would go with us.”
Yeah, I see how our standing and “muscle” in the world is working for us.
How’s that coalition of the willing thing going for us?
You think our allies want to be cut off from cheap goods from China?
And WHO would pay the cost for the mfg retooling? Customers, via higher prices? Heheheh. Yeah. Walmart’s success is because SO MANY PEOPLE support “Buy American”.
Supply and demand? All of a sudden there will be such a WORLD WIDE demand for USA mfg goods, no matter if they are more expensive than China?
The “world” would take our side over China?
heheheh.
Have another shot of kookaide…
And then tell me WHO would pay for the retooling, the higher wages to attract workers, etc.
Tell me how the free market would fix that problem and the US would STILL be competitive in the world markets.
“I mean, just because you can’t think of how everything would or should work, doesn’t mean other Americans can’t.”
OH PUL-EEEZE!
Why TF havent they “thought of it” before now? What “incentive” is needed to get them to “think of away things should work”?
If you can use the term “supply and demand” you should know how it works.
Or are you just crossing your fingers and whistling past the grave yard?
Hey, we could get out of Iraq gracefully and with no permanent damage. I mean, we just havent THOUGHT of a way yet.
Jesus wept… (shakes head)
Libility cost are the number 1 factor for Multi-Nationals to move their production off shore from America.
” Supply and demand would still work just fine as today under the capitalist system.”
You dumbass, supply and demand CREATED the imbalance of trade.
Got a link for that “number one” joe?
You dumbass, supply and demand CREATED the imbalance of trade.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | October 17, 2007 at 10:24 AM
Wow! I see you are a experienced and well armed blog poster. I support you disagreeing with me. But if you want to post name calling, profanity, cusswords, which any ten year old can post, I don’t think I need to respond to your flames.
Do you talk that way around your children or in meetings with human beings? I come from farm country and that isn’t how we talked to people.
In the context of the conversation in the posts, the situation was “if” trade was cut off with China. In that scenario, normal supply and demand would not be in place, would it?
The market would still be there (demand). But the supply would have been interrupted.
If you care to post a response without name calling, flaming, or other derogatory terms, I will provide you the same respect you show me in return.
Farmgirl is ticked off today.
Her Socialism is being threatened on the Open Thread.
Yes, please go to that thread and read Max’s posts.
And American Way, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. If the shoe fits and all.
Hey JR, did you see this?
And WE eat this crap that the world market rejects?
http://www.kansas.com/business/updates/story/202835.html
But of course in joe williams world… too much regulaton and liability are the cause of America’s problems in the world markets.
And American Way? Thanks for agreeing with me that a FREE market of supply and demand wont work to bring American mfg back.
It has to be an artificially manipulated market. Which was my original point.
And instead of ranting about my language, how about responding to my question of WHO will pay for all the retooling and such.
“But of course in joe williams world… too much regulaton and liability are the cause of America’s problems in the world markets.”
We gould get rid of most regulations and almost nobody would notice or care. Recalling all of these toys because of lead? What a crock! Let the kids have the lead-tainted toys. What’s the worse that could happen? Maybe a bunch of kids will grow up to be Bush supporters?
It has to be an artificially manipulated market. Which was my original point.
how about responding to my question of WHO will pay for all the retooling and such.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
If that was your original point, I’m not arguing it. That was the what the entire conversation revolved around. Necessarily, if we stopped trading with China, it would be artifical in that regards.
However, as I stated, I disagree with what you call pesky little quirks. America can manufacture what China is presently exporting to us, is basically what said. You through in your own version of governmental control from that point forward.
I disagreed and stated that business people here can build it if there is demand, and the source of that deman is cut off.
Your comments about “retooling” and such are just those of someone venting, but have no basis in fact. I suggested it is because you simply do not HOW business could/would operate. You added the caveats on the “how”, and assumed governmental nanny would contribute to the effort.Again YOU made the “suggestion” or your opinion that the government would HAVE to step in.(it’s a given in the discussion that free trade was cut off artificially. That’s clear from my statement that they have more to loose.)
I don’t believe we need government intervention to create business. Demand will drive it. Not governmental established MPG’s for instance. Because we disagree on the point of government envolvement, the WHO paying for it would be private business to meet demand. You cannot even fathom that. It is beyond comprehension isn’t it? You probably see this discussion as front page, “the sky is falling we must QUICKLY build factories”.
I see it as the natural progression of business to meet the demand (make a profit), without the government rushing in.
Again, it would be a greater loss to China than the USA if trade was cut off.
Thanks the link kfg.
If more folks saw mad cow disease up close as I did, they might be scared shitless to even eat beef. I know it still gives me pause. It was just about this time two years ago that Dad really started to decline fast. He died the week before Christmas.
But damned those regulations! Get ‘em outta the way of the free market!
Let me borrow,
Jesus wept.
Good god american way. SOMEONE has to pay for the retooling. And yes, I know how mfg works. How many plants have shut down, been sold, converted to other uses, the equipment is gone, outdated, doesnt work, workers not available to staff the plant… etc.
It takes time and money to retool. Starting new mfg or starting up shut town mfg is expensive. WHERE will the demand for these newly u.s. manufactured products come from?
Given a choice, as in free markets, Americans have shown, time after time, that price is more important that quality. OR any buy American campaign.
You are just living in a dream world if you think that we can just close the doors on importing from China without paying severe economic consequenses. Or that some mythical demand for U.S. made goods, with prices to cover the true cost, would suddenly or even gradually rise.
Nope. Much like importing drugs from Canada, it would be cheaper to let Europe buy from China and resell to us than it would be to gin up American manufacturing capability.
A FREE market cant solve this. And an artificial market is what you wingnuts call socialism, no?
But please, just ignore the realities about global markets and American manufacturing. Please just wave the flag instead, and close your eyes and believe all that flag waving will solve our problems.
I see how well that’s working for us now…
A FREE market cant solve this. And an artificial market is what you wingnuts call socialism, no?
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
We will have to agree to disagree. A free-market can correct this (with the clarification that it is artifical if there was a trade embargo on China).
However, I did post something that in hindsight I believe is incorrect. Although I believe Americans are capable of picking up the manufacturing of goods/services presently derived from China -
I believe the actual jobs and manufacturing will go to Mexico or some other country with lower labor costs.
End result is the same, no new jobs for American workers. Instead of getting your toys from China, they’d come from Mexico. No improvement in trade deficit.
Check out this chart, notice from 2000 to the latest date over a 400% increase in China trade imbalance. Granted it hasn’t kept up with bush’s oil increase % but we’re getting there.Japan is now a net importer of China. That has to give one pause.Table 1. China’s Foreign Exchange Reservesand Overall Current Account Surplus: 1990-2005YearCumulative foreign exchange reservesCurrent accountbalanceBillions of $ % of GDP % of imports Billions of $1990 29.6 7.6 54.9 11.91991 43.7 10.8 68.4 13.11992 20.6 4.3 25.2 6.21993 22.4 3.7 21.6 -11.71994 52.9 9.8 45.8 6.51995 75.4 10.8 57.1 1.31996 107.0 13.1 77.1 5.61997 142.8 15.9 100.4 32.51998 149.2 15.8 106.4 31.21999 157.7 15.9 95.1 21.12000 168.3 15.6 74.8 20.52001 215.6 18.1 88.5 17.52002 291.1 23.5 98.6 35.42003 403.3 28.1 97.7 31.42004 609.9 38.5 108.6 58.72005 818.9 36.1 124.1 116.1Source: Economist Intelligence Unit, International Monetary Fund, and People’s Bank of China.
America needs to become more self reliant.
I agree with Bush on this one; just as I agreed with Bob Dole on the need to label the genocide of the Armenians.
If we haven’t already, I think we will reach a tipping point where we will be completely reliant on China’s manufacturing, and the age of America’s production ability will be a distant memory recorded in the history books.Kind of reminds me of the Sci Fi show where the workers lived underground and the upper class lived above, care free, until they were harvested.
Kind of reminds me of the Sci Fi show where the workers lived underground and the upper class lived above, care free, until they were harvested.
Posted by: The Phantom
That was a great movie. Time traveler on a time machine.
300 million Americans will be brought into WW lll because Israel can’t stop pissing people off?
Bush warns nuclear Iran could spur ‘World War III’
By Haaretz Service and News Agencies
“United States President George W. Bush on Wednesday warned that a nuclear-armed Iran could lead to a third world war because of the Islamic
state’s determination to destroy Israel.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/914036.html
Read it yourself…He’s smiling!
He’s also nuts!
A major problem is our reliance on foreign oil. This contributes majorly to our international a trade imbalance. For example, in 2006, we imported roughly $400 billion in oil. Our trade deficit was $768 billion.
If we were energy independent, we could cut more than half our trade deficit. Then we could rebuild our manufacturing economy, and impose tariffs to encourage people to buy American–or to support a trade zone among nations that pay living wages, are democratic, and practice ecologic sustainability, that results in exports and imports being balanced.
We’d have to tighten our belts. Our forebears were able to do this. People in big cities take buses and rail-systems to work. Bicycle commuting is slowly gaining traction. Ride-sharing in cars and vans has proved feasible. Germany experimented with a car-shares scheme some years back: “You don’t drive a car every day. Join a shared-ownership pool, and pick up a car when you need one.” A workable idea.
Energy conservation works. It needs to be made universal, and improved through new technologies.
(The Dalai Lama today discussed ecologic protection, so the preceding is not altogether off-thread.)
FYI:China’s GDP was $2.6 trillion USD in 2006. Their exports were $974 billion that year (36% of GDP), and the USA was only about 21% of that (about 7.5% of GDP).
In contrast, the GDP of the USA in 2006 was about $13.2 trillion with exports of $1.869 trillion (14% OF GDP) with China comprising about 6% of that (less than 1% of GDP)
In summation, from an export standpoint, China is currently not a huge market for the USA, and the USA is not that big of a piece of China’s GDP that they would crumble without us.
“”"Putin has given us a good reason. We should break up with Russia. But we should strengthen our ties with the European nations. Germany, France, etc.”"”"
The United States should count as allies those nations with values that are similar to our own- freedom of religion (or from religion), freedom of speech and assembly, fairness and freedom and a democratic secular government. The rest of them can go to Hell.
“”"Why not met with him?
The democrats are starting a war with Turkey, Bush might as well start one with China.”"”
Turkey and China can kiss my ass. One is a Coummunist dictatorship that kills those who dare ask for even a bit of freedom and tries to suppress Tibet and Tiwan. Turkey is another Islamist neo facist state that treats its citizens like shit and where women have few rights (watch the movie “Midnight Express” for an idea on what human rights mean to Turkey.
Kev, since when did we stop becoming allies of Germany and France?
As far as I know they are full partners in trading, economic exchange and political ambassadors.
Disagreement over the Iraq war does not dictate that relationships are terminated.
“”"”And Turkey is an ally, with the American military using Turk bases for operations in Iraq. Any American bases is China? Any impact on ongoing operations? I didn’t think so.”"”"
We do not need to be in Turkey or China and we need to get the hell out of Iraq too.
“”"Kev, since when did we stop becoming allies of Germany and France?
As far as I know they are full partners in trading, economic exchange and political ambassadors.
Disagreement over the Iraq war does not dictate that relationships are terminated.”"”
Got no problems with either and spent time in Germany. A wonderful country with mostly good folks that ain’t too pissed off at the ass whuppin we have them in the Big War. Got no problems with Canada, Austrailia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, England, Ireland, Jamaica, Mexico, Spain or any country that has practices and rights similar to ours. But if anybody thinks we have to kiss the asses of tin horn dictators or Arab neo facist Islamic theocracies they can try and convince them to vote Republican.
“”"If we haven’t already, I think we will reach a tipping point where we will be completely reliant on China’s manufacturing, and the age of America’s production ability will be a distant “”"”
This will only happen if we allow it to happen by voting Republican. And if we continue to vote Republican, we deserve to be destroyed because we did it to ourselves.
China said little when others honored the Daila Lama, ie the UK, Australia, NZ, Western Europe, Canada etc. There was some Chinese complaint for a while, but nobody listened.
You do know Max, that my kid is part of the first generation of Americans expected to have it worse than their parents did.
Is that what you’re selling?
Sorry wrong thread.
I don’t really care about the Dolly Llama (is that made by Mattel?) one way or the other. He is coming here to Atlanta to teach something at Emory University and I am not going to see him. But to allow the fact that a communist tin horn dictatorhip might get pissed because we invited the Dolly Llama to make the United States shun him would be BS.
It is great the our honorable president met with this man.
He did the right thing, despite pressure or polls.
Wonder what hillary will do?
Cap’n,”Do you have a link showing repression under the Buddhist rule in Nepal?Hard to imagine these pacifistic vegetarians as being repressive, but I guess it’s possible.”
Next time you’re in Kansas City, go to the Nelson-Atkins Gallery and visit the Tibetan Tantric Buddhist exhibit. All those religious artifacts made of human bone are evidence of the dark side of Buddhist Theocracy. History has shown that any religion, even Buddhism when given absolute political power, turns deadly.
I THINK that all of those bone artifacts have to do with their almost deification of their ancestral memories, and ancestor “worship” It might look like something else to an outsider, but check out some of their writings Jed…
any religion, even Buddhism when given absolute political power, turns deadly.
Posted by: Jed | October 18, 2007 at 01:31 AM
======================
You are absolutely right on that one… ANY religion… any place…
Chas,I have read what they wrote, and have also read accounts by outsiders and refugees from the 17th-early 19th centuries. Not all of those bones were from revered ancestors who died sitting in the lotus position. Many were the remains of those who opposed the lamasery’s path to instant nirvana.