Good for Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan., for voting with 11 other Republicans Wednesday to try to advance the DREAM Act — the Development, Relief and Education for Alien Minors Act. The effort failed, 52-44, confirming that the majority in Congress would rather do nothing than do anything to bring the millions of illegal immigrants out of the shadows of our economy and communities. But Brownback and the others in favor deserve credit for trying to help the youngest and most innocent among the illegal immigrant population — those who came here with their parents and have graduated from high school here. Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., voted “nay.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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121 Comments
How do illegal children get in this country? Do they cross the desert or get packed in trucks and smuggled in by coyotes also?
That is extremely sad! Just last week I was driving on East Kellogg coming in from Andover, just before you get to K-96 and there was a van pulled over by about 10 cop cars. And there was a line of men, arrested and sitting on the grass about a dozen deep. You know they were arrested for being illegal.
Our borders are porous. It’s amazing that millions can come in.
But with the Dream Act, it had a lot more than just illegal immigrant children. Just because Democrats sprinkle the Children Sugar on a Turd Bill to try to make it more appealing, it’s still a pile of crap.
This is the 3rd time they have tried to pass the Dream Act.
And one thing! I can’t stand the way politicians label bills; Dream Act, No Child Left Behind Act, the Patriot Act. It’s disinformational and it insults the intelligence of the American Public by having the title of a bill the selling point.
RHONDA, you are DEAD WRONG ON THIS ISSUE.
This is a political attempt to use a “feel good topic” to cover up our government’s reluctance to enforce our current laws. If we choose to NOT ENFORCE OUR CURRENT LAWS, then we will soon be in a position “WE CANNOT ENFORCE” any of our laws.
The Dream act was defeated in the Senate for the third time this session. Before we add to the immigration issues our government cannot enforce now, we need the following:
1. Have our borders secured
2. Have our Current laws enforced
3. Eliminate the job magnets that attract all the Illegal immigrants. This includes severe penalties for the employers who continue to employ ILLEGAL workers.
Before any new MAGNETS such as the DREAM ACT are created to draw more illegal immigrants.
The Supporters of this bill told us that only 60,000 student immigrants would be affected. In a new study by Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) shows that with the chain migration factors which allow the legalization of extended family members this total numbers more likely are 3,600.000. Yes, 3.6 MILLION TOTAL. (Just a minor counting error)
As was the case with the 1986 amnesty, when one-fourth of those legalized are estimated to have applied fraudulently, fraud could be a significant problem under the DREAM Act.
A gaping loophole in this amnesty because any illegal alien up to age 30 can still walk into any U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services office, declare that he is eligible, and be granted amnesty with minimal documentation of eligibility. That 30-year-old could claim that he legally entered the United States when he was 15, but there is no requirement that the alien prove that he entered the United States at the claimed time by providing particular documents. The proposal would merely require him to “demonstrate” that he is eligible, which in practice could mean simply making a sworn statement to that effect. Thus, it would be an invitation for just about every illegal alien 30 and under to fraudulently claim the amnesty.
Simply put, they are prepared to take every ILLEGAL alien’s word on the issue, no verification required!
An ILLEGAL ALIEN who applies for this special amnesty would be allowed to count his years under “conditional” green card status toward the five years needed for citizenship. On top of that, the ILLEGAL ALIEN could claim “retroactive benefits” and start the clock running the day that the DREAM Act is enacted. In combination, these two provisions would put illegal aliens on a high-speed track to U.S. citizenship, moving from illegal alien to U.S. citizen in as little as five years. LAWFULLY PRESENT ALIENS, meanwhile, would have to continue to follow a slower path to citizenship.
It would be absurdly easy for just about any illegal alien – even one who does not qualify for the amnesty – to evade the law. Under this bill, once an alien files an application for amnesty, the Federal government would be prohibited from deporting him. Moreover, with few exceptions, Federal officers would be prohibited from either using information from the application to deport the alien or sharing that information with another federal agency, under threat of up to $10,000 fine. Consequently, an alien’s admission that he has violated Federal immigration law could not be used against him – even if he never had any chance of qualifying for the DREAM Act amnesty in the first place.
The DREAM Act also would make illegal aliens eligible for Federal student loans and Federal work-study programs – another benefit that law-abiding foreign students cannot receive – all at taxpayer expense
Rather than add to the mess our government has allowed to fester since the ill conceived amnesty of 1986, we need to get back to the basics and enforce our current laws so that we can then address the remaining issues of immigration in a sane manner.
Total deportation now.
Hey Joe I was passing by and saw the van, cops and criminals too, LOL I knew at times we were on the same road! And on this I think we are too….
As I stated before, I fully support an amnesty program for illegals so long as it is also paired with a TOUGH and no non sense law that keeps more people from sneaking in. This includes huge fines and jail time for anybody caught hiring an illegal immigrant, no further granting of drivers licenses or official documents to illegals and a requirement that anybody caught sneaking in the country more than once be jailed as well as deported. And if this requires a national ID card that is tamper proof, so be it. I think that, if this was the law, most Americans would be willing to accept a final amnesty for those already here.
Thank you Rhonda for a well reasoned observation. Those who think that their dreaded “illegals” are at the root of all the country’s problems will be out in force, as usual, but the matter at hand here is whether kids, who were brought here young, should have a chance to participate in the life of the only country they actually know.
Frankly, I don’t take seriously the arguments that if we first enforce our current laws well, then we can look at further solutions. There will never be perfect enforcement, so there will never be a time the immigrant haters will be willing to look at any long-term solutions (except the incredibly simplistic and destructive to the U.S. “deport them all”).
I think it’s good to see that Sen. Brownback, now that he’s given up pandering to that crowd as a presidential candidate, can go back to his true convictions.
Close the borders. Seed them with landmines.
Implement a high-tech system of identification so employers would know who and what they were hiring.
At some point, get a DNA database up and running. You break into our country, we take DNA samples. You get deported. You come back, get caught, and a DNA match is made. Welcome to hard labor in the lockup, Amigo! Hope you don’t mind breaking rocks in the hot sun. You won’t be getting paid, either!
Begin rigorous enforcement in the workplace: for those who knowingly hire illegals, $100,000 fine per day per illegal to start. Example: if a local construction company knowingly hired 5 illegals, that’s half a million dollars that company would lose in a single day. A sliding scale could be implemented for larger firms.
Make BEING an illegal alien a Federal Felony– just as it is in Mexico. Make providing them “sanctuary” a Federal felony as well, punishable by fines and prison time.
And I’m tired of the nonsensical cant about how it’s allegedly “impractical” and “morally indefensible” to deport the 12,000,000 criminals who are here. As to the second point, we’re talking about the security of our nation and not allowing our country –OUR Country– to be overwhelmed by the tsunami of illegals. To me, that alone strips that “moral indefensibility” argument of its merits. We should care about OUR OWN first, and 12,000,000 criminals not at all!
As to the first point, the usual argument is that there are too many to suddenly send home. But who said anything about trying to deport them all in a single day, week, month? One million per year for twelve years would do just fine.
They do not belong here, period! Let’s rid our nation of them the correct way.
Hey Joe Williams,I was traveling west on Hwy. 54 also and saw them lined up sitting on the grass on the east-bound side. I almost missed my Hwy. 96 exit I was jumping around so much out of delighted excitement.What I’ve been wondering is why the Eagle hasn’t had anything in the paper about that stop and apprehension and what the disposition of those people was following. I haven’t heard a thing about it except from you. I wanted to turn around and go shake the hand and give a monetary tip to each of those law inforcement officers. Let us know if you know what happened. I’m afraid they are already released and scattering about looking for entitlements.
James, it appears that you, Rhonda, and the “only for the rich” Senator Brownback continue to try to cloud the real issue. It is the employers who want LOW COST, NO BENEFIT labor who draw teh imigrants across the border. Until the JOB MAGNETS ARE ELEMINATED anything we do will jsut draw more ILLEGAL.
I appreciate and understand your hearfelt concern for the individuals we are talking about. But the facts still remain that AS LONG AS WE HAVE THE MAGNETS IN PLACE without the government HAVING THE RESOURCES OR WILL to support ENFORCING ANY OF OUR LAWS, adding ADDTITIONAL mangnets such as the dream act will ONLY INCREASE THE NUMBER OF ILLEGAL ALIENS WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH IN THE FUTURE.
Rhonda………..nuts……… Joe White, Wichita Kansas.
Religious-right Sam could vote to make the man in the moon president and it won’t make any difference. He’s finished. Not running again at end of this term…so who cares what the nut case votes for.
TO THINKFIRST
Sam Brownback is really campaigning for Kansas GOVERNER in 2010.
Illegal immigration is the natural consequence of illegal hiring. But the wingnuts revert to form and aim their hatred at the victims. They just hate brown people and leap at the opportunity to attack those who have the audacity to improve their lot in life… and speak Spanish in the process.
Guns and fences and cop stops (all incredibly expensive to taxpayers) would not be needed if every individual and every CEO of every company that hires undocumented workers were put in the pokey.
Ah, but those who hire undocumented workers are precisely the same one who donate to Republic Party candidates.
Basically I agree with dealing compassionately with the Illegal Aliens who are CURRENTLY here. The fact still remains that our government has not been given the approval to enforce the laws that will keep THE NEXT WAVE OF ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS from coming to the U.S.
State such as Arizona, and Oklahoma to name two heave enacted tough penalties on employers. GUESS WHAT???? The illegals are moving, some are going south, but I bet a good percentage is moving north. Our Kansas legislatures need to enact tough penalties for employing Illegals. E-VERIFY is in place NOW for employers to use to make sure they are hire eligible workers.
ILLEGAL ALIENS came to our country for a better life. Instead they HAVE BECOME THE SLAVE of modern American “plantation owners. This will not change until we address the EMPLOYERS who are responsible for creating the JOB MAGNETS.
Monkey,You DO have proof of those accusations… si?
Well, this is interesting. Just at the time we start worrying about outsourcing mfg jobs overseas, we are adopting policies that ensure our FOOD SUPPLY will also be outsourced overseas. Why? Labor shortage. I found, on the second page of this, some interesting observations that raising the wages wont solve the problem. We simply don’t have enough warm bodies to do the jobs. I wonder how many immigration opponents would do this work at ANY wage?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21491778/
Just keep whistling past that graveyard. I hope you can grow AND preserve your own food….
Let me see…………….EXELl, National Beef, IBP, etc. all moved to western kansas because ther was this huge, legal workforce waiting to work for less than they were paying???…….Where?
NO, NO, that is just a conincidence that they are mainly spanish speaking??
Deportation is not practical.
It won’t work as a solution to this problem.Yes, we should deport trouble makers, after they do some time in US prisons and jails.
Amnesty for the families of those who sign up for the Armed Forces of the United States would be fine. A narrow bill like that would probably have huge political support, but Congress is trying to sneak too many other measures into this bill.
By the way, foreign nationals have fought and died in EVERY war America has ever fought.
During the Civil War, a very large percentage of Northern Army were “recruits” taken right off the boats from Ireland and put into Blue Coats, at gunpoint.
to ksfarmgirl
The Federal government offers the H-2A visa which allows farmers to import unlimited numbers of foreign agricultural workers for specific short-term work. Those complaining growers mostly bypass the H-2A visa program because they would have to pay an almost acceptable wage under the program, whereas wages for illegal aliens are far less.
Growers are saying that going through legal channels of immigration is too cumbersome. NumbersUSA has worked with some of the most pro-farmer Members of Congress to streamline the H-2A program, make it faster, more dependable and remove a few somewhat outdated requirements. However, the farm group lobbyists have failed to support reforms and, instead, have put all their efforts into an amnesty for the illegal workers their clients already are hiring.
Are YOU the MODERN AMERICAN PLANTATION OWNER?
Wow what an incredibly brilliant idea!
Let’s take invaders to our country and make them part of our military!
Access to the best weapons and training in the world for a few years and then back to La Raza!
Unbelievable.
Address the problem at both ends. Mine the border and make hiring illegals a “poison pill” You hire an illegal you lose your business.
Folks,The minutemen are trying to get this story out:
http://mobyrebuttal.blogspot.com/2006/03/rape-tree-grows-out-west.html
It is time for us to start broadcasting Public Service Announcements, in Mexico, about the fact that many of the women and girls who cross the border will be gang-raped by their “coyotes”.
Immigration perplexes me. I want to control the borders, but I realize the need for immigrant workers.
We are heading for a huge labor shortage, the baby boomers are beginning to retire.
However, Illegal Immigration has a dark, nasty side to it.
It is ironic that the organization frequently called “racist” by the left, the “Minutemen” — is the ONLY group that is trying to warn women and children of the danger they face, if they put their lives into the hands of these cut-throat smugglers.
Type “rape tree” into your browser.
It is heart breaking.
to Econ101
Basically I agree with dealing compassionately with the Illegal Aliens who are CURRENTLY here. The fact still remains that our government has not been given the approval to enforce the laws that will keep THE NEXT WAVE OF ILLEGAL IMIGRANTS from coming to the U.S.
We need to inforce our laws now, it’s 2007 and we are looking at making the same mistake we made in 1986. (it, only been 21 years??)
We should be able to at least learn from our past mistakes, at least enough to not make the same one over and over again.
Labor shortage?
The answer to that is get your wages up and treat your workers better. Your CEO and your stockhoolders take the BACK seat.
Like it is supposed to be.
“Close the borders. Seed them with landmines.”
“Mine the border”
Dumbest proposal I’ve ever seen on this topic.
JRLibs on this Blog called me heartless, last week, because I showed little mercy for the little darlings that we put into prison for violent murder, as juveniles.
Libs want to give these sociopaths a “second chance” to kill again.
Sorry, crossing the border as a 12 year old because your parents are tired of starving to death in the corrupt country of Mexico seems to me to be a MUCH more sympathetic reason to grant “Amnesty” or pardon.
Furthermore, I am asking that the child of illegals do something to earn citizenship: Serve in the Military.
Since you hate the Military and illegals, my plan is obviously a “lose-lose” in your book.
You do hate illegals JR.
You, sir, are a Racist.
“Mine the borders” ???
Do you realize that many of those who cross are “mules” packing drugs at gun point, with family members held hostage in Mexico?
Hold the Mexican government responsible.
JRNobody but Karl Marx, Castro and Hugo Chaves agree with you on Economics.
One of them is dead, and two are Hispanic.
Guess you are all by yourself, once again!
Hate the illegals? Hardly.
“Hold the Mexican government responsible.”
Only the Mexican PEOPLE can do that. They cannot do it if they are mowing grass or making beds for slave wages here.
No sir, it is YOU who is the racist. You want those people here so that you can exploit their misery with slightly more comfortable squalor and sevitude.
To Econ101
So please explain to me how giving amnesty to all those who came to our country illegally, is going to solve anything for anyone except those who willingly chose to break our laws?? (and those employers who want cheap slave labor)
It’s obvious that that LEGAL and JR did not read the link. The issue of wages was addressed. And the legal visa problem was addressed.
SO legal… wanna provide some backup for the nonsense that farmers oppose legal immigration?
Jesus WEPT. Read, then comment. Otherwise? We might be tempted to think your positions are motivated by race, not logic.
Paul econ?
Please do not make assumptions, assertions or judgements on me while you are in such a negative light yourself.
Log outta your eye and all that.
And as to hating our military; what is so loving about filling its ranks with desperate people?
…as noted in the article, the average farm wage is over $10.00 per hour. Hell, folks out here are paying 12-15 dollars per hour for farm workers.
How does that compare to YOUR wages?
I see no one answered my questions about labor shortages and whether THEY would be willing to pick tomatoes at ANY wage?
Real slow. Higher wages will not CREATE more warm bodies to do work. It will draw warm bodies from OTHER industries, but it wont create new people.
And THAT is the issue.
And for the record, I dont hire ANYONE on my farm, legal or illegal.
I fail to see how race has anything has to with this issue.
We have laws, there are people from all over the world who come illegally.
Theodore Roosevelt’s ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American…There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag.. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language… and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1907
hee hee hee
god, guns, gays and ‘gration.
The FOUR g’s that will always get the most posts on the WE blog.
The Federal government offers the H-2A visa which allows farmers to import unlimited numbers of foreign agricultural workers for specific short-term work. Those complaining growers mostly bypass the H-2A visa program because they would have to pay an almost acceptable wage under the program, whereas wages for illegal aliens are far less.
We realizr that they have to plan ahead to have these workers. If the growers used the LEGAL process, then the ILLEGAL process WOULD DRY UP, eleminate the magnet, and it won’t draw the ILLEGAL.
I am an average american who has felt for years that the politicians don’t listen to us at all. My mind has changed, or at least I have been encouraged by the average Amercians who have joined the fight for LEGAL IMIGRATION.
We finally have learned that the computer, along with e mail, fax etc. allows us to communicate effectively, and in the numbers necessary to give our position voice……VOICES THAT CAN BE HEARD!!!.
LOOK UP A COUPLE OF THE FOLLOW ORGINIZATIONS-
You don’t speak for me
Americans for legal imigration
Numbers USA,
these 3 for a great start.
If you direct your voice toward those who make and enforce the laws, maybe we can make a positive difference.
In all fairness kfg…
Yours is a regional issue.
Reality in urban and suburban areas is vastly different than you have it out there.
And yes, if I did not have extended family to care for here I would take those jobs, AND the for now clear air out there in a minute.
Deportation wont work? Nonsense. Oklahoma has just enactd the toughest laws in the nation. They now require their Police to receive Section 287g training to now be able to enforce immigration laws.
Guess what, Tulsa is now implementing it and already seen a reduction of some 25,000 illegals who have self deported ON THEIR OWN.
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0807/449251.html
http://www.ktul.com/news/stories/0807/449699.html
Employers are also part of their equation. They will be held CRIMINALLY liable if they are caught with illegals, they are required to use the E-Verify system of SS# verification NOW AVAILABLE to ALL businesses.
Here is the E-Verify sitehttp://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=75bce2e261405110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&vgnextchannel=75bce2e261405110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD
Any of the Wichita City leaders reading this should be on notice that the local law enforcement should be required to receive this Federal 287g training to help with their current ongoing GANG problem here in Wichtita.
“Yours is a regional issue”
JR, you know I love you and respect you, but READ the freakin’ link.
It is about farms in New York State.
It is slightly MORE than a regional issue.
I have to go for now I will read the link later.
OK JR, but for now, would you humor me and not post about links you DONT read?
Mr Bill (and others)
I have NEVER proposed blanket Amnesty for illegals.
“Self Deportation” is a great concept. If you make it harder to stay, many will leave on their own. Also, anyone convicted of a crime, while here, should do some minimal punishment, here, then be shipped home.
However, until the borders are secure, deportation is like bailing out a leaking boat with a teaspoon.—-As far as labor is concerned, I have a question, an honest question as I am not sure of the answer:
Contract labor is generally NOT subject to wage and hour laws.
In order for “employers” to be subject to FICA and IRS with holding laws, and minimum wage laws, the employer had to dictate “time, place and method” of work.
Those who are paid per the bushel, for instance, would not be covered, would they?
I do realize that payments of over $500.00 per year require a 1099. Which would require a SS#.
Again,
I think Amnesty for those who volunteer for the military, and to the families of such volunteers, is justified.
People who are “paid by the bushel” are also dictated “time, place and method”.
That has nothing to do with how they are “paid”.
Try not to confuse payment with how the work is done, or where or when.
To Econ101
” think Amnesty for those who volunteer for the military, and to the families of such volunteers, is justified.”
How far down the “family Tree” do you think the chain migration links should fall?
“However, until the borders are secure, deportation is like bailing out a leaking boat with a teaspoon.”
I am not against improved border security. I AM against a dumbass wall. But having said that…
How about THIS statement paulie?
“However, until those who EMPLOY the illegals are punished harshly, deportation is like bailing out a leaking boat with a teaspoon.”
Makes just as much sense, no?
FarmgirlWhen I pay someone to mow the lawn, I do not have to withhold FICA, even if I tell them which lawn to mow.
Same if I pay them to paint the house or to replace the roof.
And, If I don’t care how long it takes them to do the job, they are not being paid by the hour.
Sorry, farm labor laws are not my strong point.
I don’t get it.
Kansas for legal
Amnesty for military should be to DEPENDANTS ONLY, under the same guidlines as IRS rules for Dependants.
How many of you have checked to see what documetation (verified documention) is required for new residents of any type to register to vote where you live?
Farmgirl
We agree on something.
Employers should follow the law.
TO Econ101
I agree, on all the special rules. unfortunately that is not how it ususally works. They all bring their extended families. That is how you get from 60,000 Students for the Dream act to 3,600,000.
It seems our lawmakers think we are all stupid.
I have known many illegal imigrants in western Kansas in particular. They are for the most part decent people. Decent people who have taken great risk and endured many hardships to give their familes a chance for a better life.
Some work to send money back home, other work to support the family they brought with them. Most of them work very hard and are decent honorable people, by any standard.
Most of the ILLEGALS came AFTER 1986, because the JOB/Benefit MAGNETS were not removed.
Here we are 21 years later dealing with the same Issue Senator Kennedy sold us in 1986.
WHY???Because the JOBS are still here.
When we make the current imigrants citizens, they will have to be paid more in wages and benefits by their current employers.
How many years will pass until we have another xxxxmillion NEW ILLEGALS to take their place.
We must address the issue of adequate punishment of employers. When we finally work together to address this, the flow will slow, and then the issues created should be handled. To do so prior to reversing the trend is foolish, ineffective and hopeless.
Paulie, if you are hiring INDIVIDUALS to mow your lawn, you should be sending them 1099s. Really. I dont agree with that, but that is the law.
Now, if that individual has set themselves up in BUSINESS with an EIN, then you can pay them like you pay any other business. And they should be paying self employment taxes and sales taxes where appropritate. Yes, some labor is subject to sales tax.
I know it doesnt make any sense, but that is how the law works.
Time, place and method are the litmus tests for individuals, not businesses.
It seems to me that we all need to call and fax our Senators and represenatives demanding they enforce the laws on ILLEGAL EMPLOYMENT. When we let them know their jobs depend on action, then there will be progress
Senator Sam Brownback contact information- Taken from his web site
Office location Phone # Fax #Washington DC office 1-202-224-6521 1-202-228-1265Overland Park Office 1-913-492-6378 1-913-492-7253Topeka office 1-785-233-2503 1-785-233-2616Garden City office 1-620-231-6040 1-620-231-6347Wichita office 1-316-264-8066 1-316-264-9078
Senator Pat Roberts Contact Information Taken from his web site
Washington DC office 1-202-224-4774 1-202-224-3514
Overland Park Office 1-913-451-9343 1-913-451-9446Topeka office 1-785-295-2745 1-785-235-3665Wichita office 1-316-263-0416 1-316-263-0273Dodge City Office 1-620-227-2244 1-620-227-2264
Representative Todd Tiahrt, Contact information taken from his web site
Wichita OfficeAddress: 155 North Market St.Suite 400Wichita, KS 67202Phone: 316.262.8992Fax: 316.262.5309Washington Office
Address: 2441 Rayburn BuildingWashington, DC 20515Phone: 202.225.6216Fax: 202.225.3489
Why not a $5,000 reward for turning in illegal immigrants?
That would be easy money for deadbeat Socialist Democrats AND it would get rid of illegal immigrants at the same time.
Rewarding one Socialist Democrat for getting rid of another one!
A win-win!
The Socialist Democratic Party hasn’t had much of an existence since the earliest 20th century. Why would offering them a $5,000 reward do anything? Or are you talking about a foreign political party?
No, that’s the present Democratic National Party, Doug. Haven’t you heard about their goals for America?
Pure Socialist Goals.
Individual Freedom doesn’t matter, it’s the collective sharing of all assets, that’s what is important.
You mean it’s only the Democratic party that wants to fund the fire department, public schools, the military, social security, and the police departments?
Not only sharing Assets, but also Income.
The Income Tax will continue to be used to redistribute income from those who earn it to those who don’t.
It will be tweaked to be even MORE Socialist under the Democrats.
They will raise taxes even higher on those who earn it (Top 50% already pays 97% of all income tax now, guess it should be 100%).
Redistributing assets directly, now that is the challenge for Hillary.
She’ll have to break several Constitutional provisions to steal assests, but the End Justifies the Means for Hillary.
Freedom, for individuals, doesn’t matter.
Freedom is a collective right for all the people to share things equally. There are no more individual rights, except for the right to kill babies.
Monkeyhawk,”Guns and fences and cop stops (all incredibly expensive to taxpayers) would not be needed if every individual and every CEO of every company that hires undocumented workers were put in the pokey.”
With at least half of Senators and Congressmen employing one or more illegal aliens to take care of their kids, their house or their lawn, how much chance do you think that has of passing?
Oh we’re not talking about Funding programs that benefit all Doug.
There are some of those of course, like the ones you mentioned.
We’re talking about funding some programs for some.
And we’re also talking about WHO pays for ALL Government programs.
Right now, if you are in the Top 50% of working Americans, you pay for 97% of the income tax funded programs today.
The Socialist Democrats will make sure that top 50% pays for 100% of the income tax funded programs tomorrow.
1/2 the country under Socialism, should pay for the other 1/2.
It’s only fair.
Oh, and Individual Freedom, out the window Doug.
Forget about it.
If you are in the Top 1/2, the Government takes away whatever you earn. You have no choice in that. You are not free to keep even 1/2 of what you make.
If you are in the Bottom 1/2, the Government gives you whatever the Government thinks you need. You have no choice in what you get. Course you’re getting something for nothing, you’re not working for it.
Beggers can’t be choosers.
Well if the top 50% own over 90% of the nation’s wealth it should be expect that they pay a vast majority of the taxes. Why is this a problem?
I see that you avoided my earlier question. I guess freedom for you is to be able to use commons financed by the taxpayer without having to pay for it yourself. I guess you want to go back to the days where you lived in your mom’s basement and your parents paid for all your bills. Perhaps it’s time for you to grow up and accept some responsibility. It’s a society we live in. If you don’t want to live in this country you can always go live a life as a hermit in the Northwest Territories or something.
So Twinkle, your argument is that the rich are scrounging and diving through the dumpsters for food. Yeah, ol’ Bill Gates is just hurting for cash these days. Come back to the real world.
Freedom for Socialist Democrats, doesn’t matter.
America is no longer the land of the free, and the home of the brave.
We are the land of the lazy Socialists, and home of the wimps.
I’m in the bottom half, so if I want a new car and a larger house I can just get it from the government. Okay, where are the forms I have to fill out? Somehow I think you are full of shit and a typical lying conservative.
Accepting responsibility, funny Doug you should mention that.
Is accepting responsibility paying something in the form of income taxes? Even 5% of your income is too much? How about 10%?
1/2 the country Doug is paying practically nothing. Is that responsible?
Is it more responsible for one half to pay for the other half?
But it’s ok if half pays nothing?
Yes, that’s your definition of responsibility. True Socialist you are.
Used to be Americans were proud to be independent and free.
Not any more.
“Close the borders. Seed them with landmines.”
You really think that would stop the flow? Years ago I actually knew a man who as a teenager crossed just such a border to escape from Latvia.The only way to stop such immigration is to make it worse than starving to death where they are. That’s a tough order to fill!
I seem to get a large chunk taken out of my payroll taxes. I’m guessing you think that is nothing. There is a cap on the payroll tax where if a person in your top 50% make over $90,000 they don’t have to pay.
Your argument that I don’t pay any taxes (I also had to pay $3,000 in income taxes last year) is quite weak since it’s not supported by reality. As expected you are just lying or you just don’t know what you are talking about.
82 corporations on the Fortune 500 list paid no income tax. This despite the fact the lying Twinkle Dum claiming they pay the majority of the taxes.
http://www.ctj.org/corpfed04an.pdf
Look at your income tax owed Doug. How much did you pay?
Not what your refund was. Not what you paid in.
Line 44 on your Form 1040.
If that’s less then 4 or 5 thousand Doug, you are not paying much at all, are you?
You don’t have to tell everyone, just let your conscience be your guide.
Socialist though, do not have a conscience. They have no guilt for paying little or no tax, or EVEN PAYING A NEGATIVE TAX!!
Negative tax? Yeah, that’s right. You Socialists know who you are. With all your credits, including the UNearned Income Credit, many of you get a Tax Refund even though you paid no tax!
Who’s paying for whom here, let’s not kid ourselves.
Doug, find ONE quote where I said Corporations were paying most of the taxes!
You can’t.
Liar.
I didn’t get a tax refund. How can I get a tax refund when I paid $3,000 in taxes? Are you truly this moronic? I guess that explains why you are a conservative.
You said the top 50% were paying 97% of the taxes. Your problem is that you tell so many lies you can’t keep them straight.
Wow, $3,000 in income taxes Doug!
Amazing!
Yeah, amazing since your entire argument is that I don’t pay taxes. I can look at my paycheck and see the taxes taken out and I can look at my IRS statements and the bills I have to pay. Where did you get your information that I don’t have to pay anything and I can get whatever I want from the government for free?
BTW, still waiting for those forms to get my free shit.
You said the top 50% were paying 97% of the taxes. Your problem is that you tell so many lies you can’t keep them straight.
Posted by: Doug | October 28, 2007 at 01:40 PM
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls
Shut up Doug.
You accuse others of not paying their fair share of taxes when you pay a measely $3,000 per year.
You accuse me of lying about the top 50% paying 97% of the income tax when you have no idea what you are talking about.
The IRS Stats are on the link above.
No point of having a discussion with a deadbeat lying Socialist Democrat who is more concerned about stealing money from others who earn it, then he is with maintaining Freedom in America.
EOD.
Its odd to see JR on the same page as David Duke. Deportions millions of people is cost prohibitive not just to your taxes, gonna have to raise them to raise the billions it would take to do that. then the cost to the economy immigrants working in the meat plants in Western Kansas is probably the only thing keeping those towns alive. Who’s gonna do the work they do? Who wants to hoe beets or pick grapes, or wash dishes? and most places will close down instead of paying someone 10 dollars an hour you think a American would get if their wasn’t an immigrant to steal his job. And if lose your job or cant get one because of an immigrant who cant even speak English then you should have paid attention and got good grades in school like your teachers told you too.
If $3,000 is “measely” then write me out a check.
Do you even read anything? I never said you were lying about the top 50% paying the majority of the taxes, I just added that some of these top income recepients weren’t paying any taxes at all.
Try thinking before you hit the ‘post’ button.
So where are those forms for me to get my free stuff? If you don’t want to be called a liar then you should stop lying. At least you make for good amusement showing everyone how moronic conservatives continue to be. Are you just in a tirade because liberals happen to be right on just about everything?
So I decided to calculate out how much I pay in taxes. Let’s see, 12% for income tax, 26% for payroll tax and 7% for sales tax. None of this includes my property tax. So this is 45% of my income which goes out in taxes.
To the ‘Dum’ one 45% is the same as paying nothing since I’m in the bottom 50% and only make $25,000 a year.
As usual conservatives can only tell lies.
What’s a Payroll tax?
Is that Payroll tax in addition to Federal and State taxes?
Oh, and if you make $25,000 per year, you are lying your ass off about paying $3,000 in Federal taxes.
Bottom feeding Socialist.
How many times can you say:
Gimme, gimme, gimme?
“26% for payroll tax”
Where did you get that number? I think the ‘both halves’ amount is about 13% or so.
Dummy – payroll tax is FICA and Medicare.
He pays 7% of his INCOME in sales tax.
That’s funny.
That would mean Doug pays $1,750 in sales taxes every year.
So his taxable purchases must total: $25,000.(7% x $25,000)
Not bad, given an income of $25,000.
Ok Ben, on my paystub it splits out FICA and Medicare, but the total is 7.65% of your income.
15.3% if you are self-employed.
Still a long way from 26%.
Ben, I divided my gross pay and net pay out of one of my paychecks.
I’m glad to know the troll who posts under various dishonest identities thinks the IRS overcharged me. I’m in the tax bracket which pays 15%, I paid 12%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_bracket#Tax_brackets_in_the_USA
A quick calculation on someone earning $25,000 per year, taking the Standard Deduction, paying at the Single Rate:
$2,596 in Federal Income tax. That’s 10.4% of gross income.
Likely Doug has other deductions if he owns a home and pays property tax, may file at the lower married rate, taking a higher standard deducton, several credits, so that little or no taxes are Likely paid by Doug.
Social Security and Medicare on $25,000 would be= $1,912.50.
(7.65%)
Doug is a liar. Proven liar multiple times.
I’m glad to know the troll who posts under various dishonest identities thinks the IRS overcharged me. I’m in the tax bracket which pays 15%, I paid 12%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_bracket#Tax_brackets_in_the_USA
Posted by: Doug | October 28, 2007 at 02:19 PM
So, you paid less then your tax bracket. Not even paying the fair share of your lower fair share.
Sheeeesh.
Dummy – that is pretty much what I said – I under-guessed when I said “about 13% or so”. I’m operating without all my financial references handy. 15.3 is correct.
No, Doug. You said you were paying 45% of your income in taxes. You lied.
To the ‘Dum’ one 45% is the same as paying nothing since I’m in the bottom 50% and only make $25,000 a year.
As usual conservatives can only tell lies.
Posted by: Doug | October 28, 2007 at 02:04 PM
Socialists may not even realize how Socialist they are!
Math for Dummies anyone?
Selling for just 1% over the actual cost of $10.
So you can buy it for $110!
Actually IRS regs are pretty confusing.
To calculate your true Federal Income tax rate:
Take Line 44 of your Form 1040 – Line 46 if you have AMT, add your other taxes from line 58 to 63, then subtract your EIC line 66, line 68 additional child credit, and any misc credits to get your TOTAL TAX.
Then divide your Total Tax by your Total Income Line 22, to get your True Effective Federal Income tax rate.
Payroll tax, LOL!!! Is that the tax paid to your Payroll Department?
Where’s Doug?
Probably reading his Democrat Underground web site looking for help.
Doug – a ‘15% tax bracket’ does NOT mean you pay 15% of your income in FIT. It means you pay 15% on the LAST DOLLAR. The earlier ones are still at 0% and 10% FIT.
However, from the very first dollar we are hit by the 15.3% payroll tax.
It sure looks like a bunch of the Pro amnesty crowd took this over to bury a thread which made some sense.
I guess that happens with – IQ
Wow, Econ — I guess we know where you stand now — You want to go easy on the Illegals, but you want to stop funding for children who are sick, and need medical attention who are citizens. I dont think your credibility has anything left of it now!!
I dont think your credibility has anything left of it now!!
Posted by: sugar | October 28, 2007 at 04:24 PM
What does a person’s opinion on an opinion blog have to do with a person’s credibility.
You Libs need to understand what this blog is.
It’s not a penus measuring contest, nor a popularity contest, it’s an opinion blog.
If you don’t like another person’s opinion then state so.
There is no reason to attack the person stating their opinion which is what you constantly do sugar.
Realize the difference – opinion.
Look it up sugar, in case you don’t understand the definition.
So, my opinion is that I dont value the opinion of said poster – that better now, Kansas (I dont value yours either)
Besides that Kansas, what the hell business is it of yours? Unless you are also Econ101??
And if it IS just opinion, why are you constantly castigating Cosmos for posting his/her opinions?
Oh, I forgot — It only applies to YOU and not to others. My humble apologies!! /sarcasm off
Kansas, based on your own use of “opinion” your credibility is sorely lacking as well! LOL
Where is the blog police… something needs to be done about this pathetic fighting!
And if it IS just opinion, why are you constantly castigating Cosmos for posting his/her opinions?
Posted by: sugar | October 28, 2007 at 04:47 PM
Focus much sugar?
When I have a made a comment about cosmos in this thread?
Maybe not this thread, but you have made enough comments about Cosmos for a life time!! LOL
Newspapers now decide which officials are “RIGHT” and which are “WRONG” on political issues?????
THere is no longer such a thing as DISAGREEMENT???????? One party only? Socialist party?
Thank god I cancelled my subscription to newspapers!!BROWNBACK IS WRONG. He has abandoned his REPUBLICAN values and standards. He is going to be voted out just like Jim Ryun who also abandoned the conservative principles.
Further, Brownback is just like Phil Kline – a ONE ISSUE CANDIDATE. His way, or the highway, and nothing else matters more.
Brownback is wrong. He hopes liberals will re-elect him on this. Not enough blue in Kansas for that. ONLY if people like me get mad and vote against him.
NEXT REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR SENATE????
“The Administration strongly supports reauthorization of the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) in a way that puts poor children first. … Because H.R. 3963 has not addressed in a meaningful way the objections that caused the President to veto H.R. 976, the President will veto this legislation if it is presented to him without significant changes.”
– Statement of Administration Policy, 10/25/07
1. The Democrats’ new legislation continues to allow States to avoid covering poor children first. The bill repeals the requirement that 95 percent of children below 200 percent of the Federal poverty level be covered before coverage is extended to children from higher income families. The Democrats’ new legislation also permits States to keep adults on the program through 2012.
2. The Democrats’ new legislation continues to cover children in families earning more than $62,000 per year (300 percent of the Federal poverty level). Proponents claim the Democrats’ new legislation caps income eligibility at 300 percent of the Federal poverty level, but the legislation would not completely close the income disregard loophole. Under this loophole, States could still enroll children in families with incomes higher than $62,000 a year by ignoring part of the family’s income. In addition, the legislation continues to grandfather New Jersey at $73,000 per year (350 percent of the Federal poverty level).
3. The Democrats’ new legislation continues to raise taxes to move
2 million children covered by private health insurance onto government-run programs with fewer choices and longer lines. Federal revenues are at an all-time high, and no tax increase of any kind is needed to finance SCHIP reauthorization. The President’s Budget offsets not only the new SCHIP spending but also proposes an additional $92 billion in mandatory savings over five years. These proposals represent more than enough to offset any additional spending in the context of the Democrats’ new bill. The new legislation also continues to fund SCHIP with a budget gimmick that would not provide stable funding and actually costs more than the earlier bill, notwithstanding supposed improvements in policy.
The rest of the presidents comments which Sam ignored:
4. The Democrats’ new legislation continues to allow SCHIP to cover ineligible individuals. The legislation imposes no sanction if a person fraudulently attests to being a U.S. citizen. During the period of time that the State is conducting an investigation (if Social Security finds an inconsistency with the stated Social Security number), it must continue medical assistance to the applicant.
See ya SAM!!! You are history: traitor
5. The Democrats’ new legislation shifts more responsibility to the Federal government. SCHIP has always been a Federal-State partnership (thus the reason for “S” in the title). The Democrats’ bill has the effect of reducing States’ financial responsibility by providing performance bonuses that can be used to lower the State match requirement. The fiscal responsibility of providing children’s health care should be shared. These bonus payments only serve to increase fraud and abuse by emphasizing enrollment at any cost as opposed to enrollment of eligible children.
Kansas is a backwards state in EVERY category. This state will NOT do anything until the citizens are up to their eyeballs in illegal aliens before anything happens.
Well in TEXAS 4 DFW cities are doing the same thing Oklahoma has done. And you know what, the illegals LEAVE!! It is getting better in DFW and Oklahoma. Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchinson may loose her seat as rumor has it she got a TON of hatemail following her support on the DREAM act.The citizens OF BOTH patrties are TIRED of being overrun with ilelgal aliens.
You idiots in Kansas KNOW NOTHING of the effects of ilelgal aliens to ANY DEGREE whatsoever, but you education curve is about to spin into high gear.
Word is out, and the ilelgals ARE coming KANSAS way. They are going to states that are not reacting and taking no action. So not only will you have the ilelgals you have now, but you will be receiving Colorado’s, Arizona’s, DFW ans Srurrounding, and Oklahoma’s illegal aliens population.
These ilelgal aliens are coming from areas with a tax base MUCH larger than Kansas and even they could not make up for the taxes collected versus services delivered.
The next portion of the illegals in KANSAS is that most of the state is 65 years of age or older, and THEY are now dominating the collectin of services. Who will you give services to; a lifelong Kansan or a recently arrived ilelgal alien?
Kansas did one helluva job chasing all the smart people out of the state and leaving it populated with a bunch of half wits.
IT is refreshing to see the birds coming home to roost,
Fare well dear Kansas, Fare well.
kfgThanks
I pretty much understand and agree with your take on the employment vs contractor rules, and the business vs individual rules.
However, an IRS agent once told me that “if you deduct the expense, you better send out a 1099. You are supposed to for everyone who does more than $500.00 in work. However, it is usually only enforced when the expense is deducted by someone.”
and—
The “private contractor” vs “employee” issue is important in all of this.
A grower could hire several indepenant contractors to do the job.
Or the grower could hire a company that sub-contracts the workers.
Either way, the grower is protected, somewhat, against the enforcement of certain rules that govern “employment” of illegals.
NEGATIVE econ 101, that is a myth.
A “worker” is either an employee of the grower or an employee of the contractor. Individual workers cannot be under sub contract, it is ilelgal, as this is one of the most “bent” laws in the country.
An employee is an employee unless they have a ‘registered” or licensed business in most states, however, you need to look up the IRS definitions of what a worker is.
I see the charge of racism or bigotry being waved around a lot here. Let me tell you why that is just not correct.
I think those of us who are in favor of dealing with illegal immigration are of a similar mind.We see these invaders as a threat to American jobs, wages and working conditions. That is how I see them anyway.
Now, my worries about American workers could be addressed REAL easy.
Simply make all illegals and anyone else who gets here an instant citizen! This takes away the ability of employers to exploit them. MY problem solved.
But wouldn’t THAT be a real act of racism? I mean, an illegal and I being otherwise equal, who do you think is gonna get the job?
We should be ashamed that we exploit these poor people and keep their country broken.
We should care enough about them to help them fix their country by making them stay there and change it.
Comprehension difficulties there Amway?
I didn’t say anything about the US doing anything to for or with Mexico.
I just said force the Mexican people to stay there. That’s all we need do. The rest will take care of itself.
“It is not good policy for the USA to “fix up” any country other than our own. It just gets us in trouble. Besides, if they don’t care enough about their country, you are surely not going to make a difference.” — Amway –
Thats what we been trying to tell you and all the other right wingnut, Amway… about Iraq!! LOL You get it now?
Tyler
NopeI don’t claim to be an expert, but I do not believe that someone who agrees to work for, perhaps, a day or a week, repairing fences, must be an “employee” — that person can hold himself out to be “Juans fence repair”, I can make the check out to Juans fence repair, and I do not have to withold for taxes.
Most business are “Schedule C” Sole Proprietorships.
How much documentation must the farmer or rancher process in order to figure out if he can contract with someone?
Where does privacy come in?
You do not need a “business license” to operate most businesses.
The tax ID for the business and the individual are often identical.
SugarYou say I have no credibility because I do not want taxpayers to pay the health care costs of children who live in families making $80,000.00 a year (SCHIP) but I WOULD grant Amnesty to a kid who came here at age 12, with his parents, and then joined the military at age 18.
Ok.
I can live with that.
You have a right to your opinion.
Even if it is in the sugarditch!
I guess some of you would be surprised to know that it was Democrats in Kansas that introduced the first “get tough on employers” bill back in 2004? The Gop majority has made sure the bill keeps getting side tracked and killed before the session ends. They are all for getting those illegals out of kansas as long as it does not make the business interest that brought them here in the first place take any responsibility.
“The tax ID for the business and the individual are often identical.”
NOPE.
The Tax ID is for a business entity. The Social Security is for an individual, meaning under IRS law it is an employee.
Clear as day.
NOW if you want to stick your head in the sand and hire “jaun’s fence repair” without checking, be my guest, but if jaun rips you off don;t come complaining to me or the rest of the Nation in order to bail your rear end out.
10-29-07
U.S Representative Todd Tiahrt,
Your overall record on illegal immigration is among the best in our state. We support your continued efforts to improve our overall system through vehicles other than Amnesty for those who have come illegally.
Our major concern has been that the current laws are not being enforced because there is neither the will nor the resources allocated to control FUTURE immigration once the MAGNET of Amnesty is again out there attracting illegal immigrants like it did following the 1986 version.
Heath Shuler is sponsoring a bill called the “Save act” in the U.S. House of Representatives. Our understanding of this bill is that it is an enforcement only measure that requires all employers to use the currently available E-Verify system. We understand that there are some phased in controls, which in 4-5 years would require verification of all current workers by all employers.
We have always maintained that very few businesses actually want to hire illegal aliens. And we believe that of the minority of businesses that do hire illegal aliens, most do so without knowing it or do so because they feel forced to do it to keep from being run out of business by competitors who ARE hiring illegal aliens.
We encourage you to investigate this bill and consider co-sponsoring this common sense approach. Sometimes it is better to let someone else think it is their idea, and support it than get their support for yours. (Especially when you are in the minority).
At first look, this bill gives businesses a tool they can rely on, and assures them that their competitors won’t get by with hiring illegals, very few illegal aliens will get hired anywhere.
There aren’t enough odd jobs and off-the-books jobs in the underground economy to soak up the estimated 7 million illegal workers in the country. Most illegal aliens will no longer find enough work to support them and their dependents, and most of them will eventually give up their lives of illegality and go home.
There is no better word of mouth advertising than having some return to their homeland and tell their friends and family that they have to use the legal immigration system to work in the USA.
Thanks for your consideration,