At least some advocates of taxpayer-funded school choice may want to be careful what they wish for. New York City’s new Khalil Gibran International Academy is described as a “non-politically-motivated public school that teaches an academic college-prep curriculum and Arabic language,” but it already has lost one principal, been forced to relocate and inspired a commentary headlined “A Madrassa Grows in Brooklyn.” And Florida’s new Ben Gamla Charter School, which calls itself “America’s first English-Hebrew charter school,” already has had its Hebrew instruction suspended until its handling of religious content is assessed.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- DavidB on Open thread 11/24
- donndublin on Open thread 11/24
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/24
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/24
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/24
- JimJohnson on Open thread 11/24
- okobserver on Open thread 11/24
- donndublin on Open thread 11/24
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
- ANTI on Open thread 11/24
94 Comments
Hey, you want oil? You’d better learn foreign languages like Arabic and/or Russian.
Ahhhhhhh so it’s all good when we’re paying for CHRISTIAN schools with taxpayer money- and we know some of them already teach extremism. But I bet they didn’t consider this, eh?
Oh I can’t wait to hear from the fundies who support vouchers.
Yes p-mom, that will be quite intersting. Of course, MPS will chime in with his lengthy diatribes and the failure of schools in general.
Mark my word.
Oh, when the troll and his entourage figure out that I’m posting at a time I am usually at school, I’m not there today. I’m getting ready for a meeting in Topeka.
The bottom line is this- the PARENTS chose the school and if they want their kids to learn Arabic or Hebrew, why should anybody have a problem with it so long as it does not cross the line into religious indoctrination? As long as it does not give religious indoctrination and teaches reading, writing and math, I don’t care what foreign languages are taught.
“”"”Ahhhhhhh so it’s all good when we’re paying for CHRISTIAN schools with taxpayer money- and we know some of them already teach extremism. But I bet they didn’t consider this, eh?
Oh I can’t wait to hear from the fundies who support vouchers.”"”
Lots of people besides fundies support school choice and, in some cases, school vouchers. I am quite liberal on most things and I personally detest religious nutcases. But I also think that children should not be tossed into the educational abyss because of the neighbourhood or the school district they happen to reside in. I was suspicious about vouchers and choice and charter schools myself but apparently they are working quite well in Milwaukee from what I have read. As I have side before I am quite happy with the schools where I reside. My children have all attended and Cobb County (GA) schools. But if I were less fortunate and had to live in the city of Atlanta, I would not send a kid to many of the schools there because they are dangerous and the learning environment is poor. Parents who want kids out of such hell holes should be able to escape.
Well this week the rule of senority bites my ass! We choose work shifts every quarter based on senority. I have enough that I got my regular day shift- where most people work- but I was 2nd from the bottom on the day shift. That means that, while I get the day shift, I am 2nd in line to cover the night shift from 3 to midnight if they take leave. Well the other day guy with less senority is out after surgery and one of the 3 night guys went on vacation this week. So I got BUMPED! What a bummer but it will be a change of scene this week I guess in addition to the extra pay because of the shift differential. But it is the only FAIR way to do things and I am glad we are UNION even if I do get stuck with it.
KDOC Kev?
Sounds just like my hubby’s job.
Well Kev, I’d say if you’re stuck in a bad school, make it better.
Kindof like Mexico and the illegal immigration problem. Stay and fix it, don’t run away.
I am all for school choice, and school vouchers. Wether they are from Christian backgrounds, or Muslim, or Hebrew, as long as they keep out the religious teachings, and are not operated by a “terrorist” organization, who cares whether they are secular or religious organization based. I certainly don’t. They need to be taught in English, but other than that, I really don’t care.
There are some of these “schools” in NYC that teach useless languages such as obscure african dialects and creole of all things. There are few things more tiresome and pathetic than fools running around shrieking about “diversity”.
Also, this “school” has been very secretive about its’ lesson plans and that has only served to increase the backlash.
180*
It’s = it is
Its = possessive of it
Its’ = possessive of plural “its”?
Looks like somebody ought to learn his first language . . .
BTW, Gul, what racist white-power code is “180*”?
14/88 I know. The fourteen words and H is the 8th letter of the alphabet (HH = Heil Hitler).
But the 180* I haven’t seen before.
Sorry, capn, I made a simple error, but leave it to you nit pick and avoid the crux of the matter. I am just an old redneck and ex-cop and not a wise, effeminate ivory tower liberal like yourself, forgive me.
180*
And the 180* means what?
I would think after pointing out how tough you are you would have the guts to explain something you post.
BTW, stupidity doesn’t equal manliness, much as you reich-wingers want to make it so.
I may be a creep little snuffy, but I sure ain’t anal. hehehehe
180*
The solution, dear Rhonda, is to remove taxpayer funding from all education. Then we don’t have to fight over how taxes are spent.
Each person can have what they want.
But then, what would newspaper editorialists do? And the politicians, what would they do?
Then once we discover what a relief it is to have government expelled from such an important function, we can expunge it from other places.
Then we can live in peace and freedom, instead of under the coercion of multiple layers of government, each taking from us for our own good, which, their unsaid message is, we are unable to determine that ourselves.
On school choice, which is to say publicly-funded charters, and vouchers, readers need to understand that students of all schools become adult citizens. To best contribute to their communities, their talents need to be well-cultivated. In Oklahoma there is a residential science and math academy. Created by the legislature, funded by the state, and supported by private donations.
It isn’t the kind of public high school Apophis knows, but it’s as public as WSU, KSU and KU which get private donations. Actually a lot of schools get private money, through car washes and two-for-one coupon books for dinners to dry cleaning, up to parent-organized capital campaigns.
I’m just opposed to second-class mentality in public education. Oklahoma’s public school system offers options that rival, and often even beat Oklahoma’s private schools.
There is a contest called the Science Olympiad. It entered our area in 1996. The only local high school that for several years consistently sent Kansas Olympiad winners to the National Olympiad was Maize High, for 6 years running, 1997-2003. Since then, Kapaun-Mt. Carmel and Collegiate have dominated.
Last year, Wichita’s top public IB academic magnet, East High placed 13 in the Kansas Olympiad. Pointwise, KMC 318, Collegiate 296, East 143. Normalizing KMC’s points to 100%, Collegiate got 93%, got 46%.
If this was a class with grades, you figure out what getting less than half the problems that the top students earned would merit on an A-F scale.But the Science Olympiad isn’t a regular class. It’s an extracurricular hands-tools-and-brains competition that rewards creativity and problem solving. Can we use these talents here, rather than watching brains drain away?
Do we want young people to believe, “The citizens of my community made my success possible. I want to return to this supportive community, and make public contributons?”
Then there is a Math Olympiad with a staged set of test trials. The trials are based on non-memorizable, very advanced mathematics problems. The problems measure high schoolers’ (and some prodigy middle schoolers’) abilities to think for themselves by applying their mathematics knowledge to problems that aren’t found in textbooks, ACT or SAT tests.
This year, Wichita students’ places among all high-ability Kansas students, on the AMC-12 were as follows. Identical scores mean tie scores. I’ll list schools in order of their top place.
Independent: 2 (second in state), 17, 23, 30, 42, 42, 75, 95, 95. TEN Students.
Collegiate: 3, 7, 15, 19, 23, 30, 38, 75, 95
NINE students.
Andover Central: 6 ONE student.
East High: 9, 30, 30. THREE students.
Bishop Carroll: 19, 42 TWO students.
Derby: 38, 42, 62, 95 FOUR students.
North High: 42 ONE student.
Northeast Magnet High: 75 ONE student.
Why do we see two private schools, one of which only built a high school in the 90’s, trouncing USD 259? There are rich kids in these schools, but they’re not the top performers. Their parents have to make sacrifices to pay tuition. Some get financial aid. Some of their parents have refinanced their homes to use equity-cash to pay for their children’s schooling.
There are parents of talented and hard-working kids who can’t afford private schooling, who move to surrounding suburbs. Why?
Because USD 259 is run as a second-class education system. It doesn’t have to be this way with a $9900+ budget per student. Kids with special needs, who merit special intervention, include highly talented kids. The old notion of, “Well these really smart kids will succeed no matter what we do,” is disproved by the advanced Science and Math competitions.
USD 259 is actually fomenting a local “brain drain”, the removal of talented students from its clutches.
“There is a contest called the Science Olympiad. It entered our area in 1996. The only local high school that for several years consistently sent Kansas Olympiad winners to the National Olympiad was Maize High, for 6 years running, 1997-2003. Since then, Kapaun-Mt. Carmel and Collegiate have dominated.”————————-
You missed several years. My son was on the championship team at North High School in 1990. The team was led by north high science teacher Janice Crowley who has taught at Collegiate for the past many years and led teams to victory at that school.
When my son’s team won they could only go so far without raising their own money to travel to out-of-state competitions. Since then funding has been made available to these talented teams to continue and go on to the national level. That’s an improvement!
BTW, my son graduated from North High School went on to complete his PhD and today is a scientist. It all began right here in USD259.
Do we need improvements? Yes. Can students succeed in public school? Yes.
In fact, I think my son competed with Science Olympiad teams in the 80s (even earlier than I stated above).
Yes, Science Olympiad was around before 1996, as our elder, as a freshman, competed in the 1995 Science Olympiad as a member of the Northeast Magnet High School team.
Janice Crowley, after leaving North, taught a few years at Independent, starting its Sci Oly team while there, and then moved on to Collegiate.
Yes, MPS, there needs to be a residential Science/Math high school in Kansas, which could be just as public as the universities you cite. Other states have them (Illinois, Oklahoma and Texas come to mind). It could be located in Salina, a central point in the state. Of course, the districts who would “lose” students to it would also lose the associated state funding attached to these students, but this is a BS reason to oppose such a school.
only rich people advocate ending taxpayer funded schools. Or people who have no kids.
“only rich people advocate ending taxpayer funded schools. Or people who have no kids.”
That about sums it up.
If you favor “school choice,” you favor taking taxpayer dollars from the public schools and handing them over to private entities. It’s that simple.
The core issue is, ultimately, whether we should have public schools at all.
I vote yes. Excellent public schools are possible when the public cares enought to insist on it.
I have children and am poor, and I advocate making schools competitive, which would include closing uncompetitive schools, public and private. With the current monopoly, my children don’t get taught squat and when I complain, I am ignored. This has happened many times. If I was helping her with homework, she was be one of those nonfunctional graduates.
Vouchers work elsewhere, so they should be tried here. People are always saying we should emulate other countries on other issues, why not this one?
Why shouldn’t the nonparents have a say on this matter? They pay the taxes for the schools same as us parents.
Will all public schools fail? No, only the ones that do not strive to be competitive. Will all private schools succeed? No, only the ones that strive to be competitive. Look at the pitiful scores for USD259 in most areas. Teachers do your jobs, parents do your jobs, and students do your jobs and this discussion would not even be necessary.
And what, pray tell, is a “competitive” school? Who are they competing against, and by what criteria?
We have been demanding excellent schools for many years. We used to have them. It is not lack of money. In the last 6 years educational K-12 spending has tripled. Do we have better schools? Only in someone’s fevered dreams. Public schools are getting worse. I know a 4th grader, he cannot read at pre-K level, and he is a problem child so the teachers keep passing him. He is typical of many USD259 students.
More money is not the answer. Requiring parents to do their jobs, and not accepting any less is a good start. Making excuses for poor parenting is dumb. I grew up poor and my parents worked heavily, but they were there when I needed them. Too many parents today want to send the kids to school, and then send them elsewhere when they get home.
Making the grade. Set national realistic standards and schools that meet them are allowed to use the voucher system. Those that do not, don’t.
Should the lousy schools in this country be allowed to continue the worsening trend? For how long? How many high school students graduate without the ability to read and write, or read and write at a high school level?
What options do the people opposed to the voucher system believe will change the system? More money has not since more money has been pumped in the system over the last 30 some odd years. I had a cashier, 17 or 18, who could not even count me back 37 cents in change. His manager had to do it.
Schools dont teach “counting” change because counting change is archaic knowledge like writing in cursive or learning how to program old punch card machines
Didn’t Bush’s faiths based ininavatve partly fail because people like Falwell and Pat Robertson figured faiths besides theirs would get money?
It is not archaic and since too many of the high school graduates are not qualified for a better job, it is important.
You are also wrong about counting change. At least one public middle school in USD259 teaches it.
Cursive writing may be archaic, but studies have shown it helps with creativity. How are you going to sign a check without cursive writing? Cursive is also faster than printing for most people. I did have a teacher that could print in all caps faster than most of the students, but that is rare. There are many things that still require writing. Note taking is college is still done by hand many places. Cursive is faster than printing.
Typewriters are still in use some places because a word processor/computer is less efficient. Some government forms have to be filled out on a typewriter by the employee since they don’t use a computer to do it. Most government forms are computerizable, but some are not.
If counting change is archaic and obsolete, then how do you expect to get change when you go shopping and pay with cash? Many people do not use checks or credit/debit cards. If you don’t know how to count change, then how will you know if they give you the correct amount? I had a Dillons employee give me $70 for a $20 check. I did not catch it at first because she counted it so quick. When I went through the line and the cashier gave me back too much money, I caught it and gave the $50 overpayment back to Dillons.
Anon,
I was a student in the 50’s and 60’s, and I was never taught how to count back change. I learned by doing, two or three years after I graduated from high school and worked in a fireworks stand over the 4th of July holiday.
Which doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t learn. They should. So stick them in the concession stands at football, basketball, and baseball games, and wrestling and track meets. They’ll learn quickly. Hands on is the best.
Vaughn,
A residential magnet math-science high school (”Kansas Academy for Math and Science”) is already in the works to be administered by the KS Board of Regents. This was approved by the KS legislature and signed into law April 6, 2006.
This residential program for 40 juniors and 40 seniors will provide opportunities for highly gifted/talented teens to engage in research with university professors.
See SB139 reference at http://skyways.lib.ks.us/ksleg/KLRD/Publications/2006_Items_Omnibus_Consideration.pdf
Don’t be so quick to blast Kansas schools, MPS. Perhaps you’re not the education expert you make yourself out to be.
all of you voucher supporters make me chuckle … you obviously don’t know what the phrase “due diligence” means.
talk about having an UNinformed opinion.
Yours is the UNinformed opinion.
This country’s school systems stink to high heaven and we are now spending 3x as much as 6 years ago. Inflation has not been that, and we are not getting a return on our investment. Graduation rates stink; the number of children being graduated without the ability to read and write at the 6th grade has skyrocketed. And your solution is to let public schools continue their gravy train.
Where is the accountability for the school system, teachers, parents, and children?
Should we throw even more money at the broken system? We have been trying that stupid solution for so long that should have proved that it does not work.
We used to have one of the best school systems around. Now it is the laughingstock of the world, and has been for at least 30 years.
Vouchers work in other countries, and as much as you people scream about how we should follow other countries healthcare system, you do not want to follow their school systems? Sounds hypocritical to me.
If it does not work, then we stop issuing vouchers and find a new system. As Einstein said, insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Throwing money has been the same thing and it has worsened the problem, not solved it.
What is your solution Common Sense? To keep the broken system as it is? Anyone that thinks USD259 is an exemplary system has not been assisting there, either as a parent, a volunteer, or both.
If USD259 is so great, then how come families are moving to other school districts to give their children a quality education? Or, putting their children in private schools in Wichita for those that can afford the tuition?
I know plenty of friends that have done either option to avoid subjecting their children to USD259.
Common Sense, what are you and the non supporters afraid of? That we are right and you are wrong? Some of you are so stuck on the USD259 is great record that you are not seeing the truth. Take off your rose colored glasses.
I was a student in the 50’s and 60’s, and I was never taught how to count back change. Posted by: Rox | September 10, 2007 at 07:19 PM
You’re kidding right?
I distinctly remember learning this in the fourth and fifth grades. The teacher would make play money for the paper money and supply the coins for the change.
anonymous,
please, humor me by pointing out exactly WHERE in my post i said ANYTHING about 259 … i’m waiting.
as for ME being uninformed … please, tell me how competition will NOT increase the achievement gap …
as for “accountability” the problem we have right now with NCLB is that ALL of the accountability is placed on the school districts and teachers … you include “parents and children.” If that accountability EXISTED, student performance would improve.
anonymous,
“gravy train” in education? that must be why we have SO MANY PEOPLE lining up to teach … good one, Sherlock.
and then comparing vouchers in OTHER countries to imply they would be effective HERE is absolutely ridiculous … we have a problem in our country that others don’t have to the same extent – student, parent, and societal APATHY.
the welfare system makes it worse – we pay for people to sit on their butts all day long and have more children that will come to school ill-prepared for the future that awaits them.
… if only the those teachers were miracle workers – it’s all of those teachers’ faults …
one way to improve our educational system is to promote a “zero population” mentality for our POOR …
why is it that the POOREST people have the MOST kids? that has a negatively EXPONENTIAL impact on education. our students are scoring better now that 10 years ago and teachers are having to work with a less refined resource than ever before.
to me that implies that teachers are doing the best with whatever they are given …
if teaching is such a “gravy train” profession, why don’t you get off your caboose and come over to the other side of the tracks?
I said some of you because some of the anti voucher system act like USD259 is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You have not shown where it will increase the achievement gap. Explain how the other countries are able to use vouchers and get better results in their achievement by doing so?
I agree that parents and children need to be part of the equation, but I don’t see it happening through the government increasing the amount of time children are sedentary in school.
Parents should not be allowed to enroll their children in school until the children are able to do the things that children need to learn at home. We could read and write before first grade, and it was because my parents took time out of their very busy schedules and taught us. We were very poor, our house and schools did not have air conditioning, our parents worked 12 – 16 days, but none of that stopped them from being involved with us. I graduated in the top 6% of my class of 428.
How do propose getting parents and children involved? You can make a law, but that does not mean they will do it. If the law refuses to let parents enroll their children as I mentioned above, then it is a good start. But it will take other laws that place the burden on the parents and children, not just that one.
Teachers being allowed to fail students should be another option. How are we helping them when they graduate unable to read?
The gravy train is not the teachers, it is the school systems. I do not recall making the point that the teachers were the gravy train, I said the schools. Big difference.
I also do not place the blame on only the teachers.
How do you know that vouchers won’t work? I know we have issues other countries don’t have. We have to try something as the problems are getting worse, not better.
I agree with your points about the welfare system.
I have great respect for many of the teachers in the school systems. The teachers I do not respect are the ones that are willing to pass a child that needs to be held back. In some schools, they have no choice because administration dictates that decision, and I do not fault those teachers. In systems where the teacher can flunk a child and does not, then I do. I have seen too many children passed because they were problem children. Their teachers did not want them another year.
CSA, thanks for the information. I (obviously) missed that.
lindainks and VT,
Thank you for the correction on dates. I relied upon the National Science Olympiad and Kansas Science websites. The NSO listed winners back to 1985, but the KSO website only listed winners to 1996. In other words, my pleading is, Not my fault! I reviewed online public records, and I did a reasonable job of analyzing the data that were there. How was I supposed to realize that KSO held historical data that it chose to not make available online, while NSO felt the national historical data merited reporting ?
http://www.soinc.org/tournaments/winners.htm
http://webs.wichita.edu/scienceolympiad/
Isn’t it interesting that Janice Crowley decided to leave USD 259 for Collegiate? What are the odds she did this to get higher pay and “benefits”? She wanted a different kind of “reward system”. That’s why Collegiate has gone from undistinguished in the KSO to a perennial high performer. Leadership matters.
MPS, I didn’t know about her, but I do know other teachers are doing the same and going to other districts. My friend went to another district where the pay was lower, not sure about the benefits, and he is much happier where he is at.
Whether any of us perceives USD259 to be better or worse than other districts is our individual realities. WSU is perceived as being a less than great school and its decreasing enrollments reflect that perception. WSU does not offer some basics that every other public Kansas universities and most private colleges offer and that is another reason WSU has lost students. I chose another university because WSU offered very few online courses and you cannot get an online or mostly online degree. As a nontraditional student, WSU treated me like crap, and traditional students are a large part of that student base. I could have finished my degree at WSU a lot faster than elsewhere, but the treatment was not worth it. Same thing goes for employment, most people do not understand that job satisfaction is worth a lot more than money. I have taken several lesser paying jobs and found them to be more enjoyable. If anyone finds a job where they enjoy it, think long and hard before switching to a better paying job.
Leadership does matter! Janice Crowley is an exemplary person and an even better teacher. Any student who has the opportunity to be in her class will learn! And while learning they will learn to think and how to learn which is even more important. Just as we accept that some are born salesmen I think Janice was born to teach and we are blessed that she impacts young lives. I know there are many others like her!
I’m just a mom and a grandma and don’t have anything else to draw on so what I say will be nothing more than my opinion based on my experiences. I would like to see improvements but don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. If we approach any subject with a negative attitude we fail to recognize what is worth keeping and building on.
I think there are two problems that could easily be addressed and have an impact on 259. The first is teacher certification. There is an interesting article in this morning’s Eagle on the transition to teaching program. Let’s examine closely the hoops that must be jumped through and which are important.
I understand that our new Education Commissioner Alexa Posny has already put the person who was in charge of teacher certification on “leave.” I don’t expect that person to ever be back in our system and know we can’t do worse than her. Now have a chance of doing better.
I think we have a good chance of making improvements in our schools because of Alexa Posny. Although I’m aware of her position’s limitations. If we had not had the unfortunate experience of the person before her maybe we wouldn’t have been able to appreciate the experience she brings to the job. She knows Kansas but has also worked at the national level to learn how the two integrate. Let’s give her some time because it seems she has talents we will benefit from.
The other area I see that could use improvement is teacher working conditions. I’m including everything from our expectation that they gulp lunch in 30 minutes EVERY day to the hours outside school they must spend to grade, plan, keep up-to-date, the fact that they are professionals who don’t even rate a cubicle let alone an office. The list would be very long and I’m sure we could all add to it or disagree on what should be included. Mainly I’m saying we take educated professionals and don’t offer much in the way of working conditions. What other group of professionals can you name whose education gets them similar working conditions? What would you include on that list of public school teacher working conditions? Do you see where improvement could be made?
I am not a fan of Winston Brooks. I don’t think his education or experience helps 259. Why are we not looking VERY carefully and why our teacher turnover rate is so high? Why do more than 40% leave the field after seven years and never come back? Aren’t these questions that need answers? Wouldn’t these answers tell us something about why we are facing a teacher shortage?
I won’t bore you further but would love to hear from those who have more experience than I on these parts of the puzzle. Especially current teachers. What do the current teachers see as areas that need improvement and what are your ideas?
CSA,
I’ve been aware of the Kansas residential school, reading about while it was under consideration by the legislature, and I’ve previously speculatively surmised in WEBlog that if, approved by both legislature and the governore, dould not conceivably open before 2008–if people really got their rears in high gear– but I thought a 2009 or 2010 charter-class-enrollment date was the most likely scenario.
I have also pointed out that North Carolina’s math science residential school opened in 1980. Many other states gave the NCSMS time to develop a track record before deciding to jump in. Oklahoma, right on Kansas’s border, studied NCSMS, then legislatively approved a model-replica school in 1983, and it opened in 1990. (Bear in mind, Oklahoma’s oil-rich economy was in the tank, delaying implementation.)
Basically, there are two models. Model A is based on building facilities on a university campus, and enrolling kids in university classes, with special enrichment. This is the “fast track” model. Model B is a a freestanding school, generally having some guidance connection to a nearby university, which takes more time, because it has to be build “from scratch”.
For more information on these schools, as well as on other high schools with specialized science, math and technology programs, see the National Consortium website:
http://www.ncsssmst.org/
The point I made last year, which I still hold, is that waiting to see if an experiment works is wise. The North Carolina school was an experiment in 1980. Then, waiting to see if a next-door neighbor’s program is working, before attempting to copy the model, is sound. But being 26 years behind the leading edge, and 16 years behind your neighboring state, is TOO SLOW. Kansas will be two 13-year-K-12 student-education generations behing North Carolina, and more than a full generation behind next-door-niehgbor Oklahoma.
It’s not that Kansans don’t have an opportunity, it’s that Kansans make bad choices. In 2005, some retired WSU faculty proposed, an properly researched, building a gifted 6-12th grade charter school for math-and-science-gifted kids here. The leaders of this proposal were smart. There were smart kids here who would have loved a school of this nature. But BOE members, whom Apophis takes pride in putting into office, REJECTED this wonderful proposal.
It wouldn’t have affected my kids, but I know a WISE IDEA when I see it–for OTHER PEOPLE’S KIDS, and THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH I LIVE.
Linda, as you know I’m also an outsider looking in, but a couple of comments. First, the lucky teachers have their own room(s), which could serve as a base of operations similar to an office assuming it’s not in use all day.
Second, I believe the master contract with the district allows the teachers a planning period during the day which at least facially gives them time to do their planning “on the clock”.
Third, ask newly-minted MBAs, etc., about cubicles vs. offices. :-)
The lunch problem is real; not only do the teachers “gulp their lunch”, but so do the students. It seems to me that a part of this is the inadequate school cafeteria space, mandating crowding a large number of people into the small space as often as possible, so that in a large enrollment building, such as East, “lunch period” doesn’t run from 9 a.m. to 2:45 p.m.
It is my speculation that one of many factors in the turnover is dealing with discipline issues. Another is the form filling I’ve heard many teachers complain of, in keeping the records required by various levels of government, whether it be local (259), the state, or the federal government. There is the ongoing issue of NCLB compliance, to be sure; then there’s the “baby sitting” function that must be dealt with by the teachers.
I, too, would be receptive to comments of teachers, both present and those who have left for other employment, on factors making the job less than desirable, as well as thoughts on improvements.
Finally, as a total outsider, I pose the question of whether we, as a country, need to reassess our populist tradition of all students being entitled to access to the same education. Not arguing for the “European” model or the “Japanese” model, but rather taking a look at (gasp) “tracking”.
indainks,
you’re not boring anybody. You have insights.
They merit sharing.
From what I’ve read on N.C.L.B. we are just now beginning to address the parts that concern teachers. We’ve faced the testing of students designed to make schools fail over the past few years and now we move on to requirements for teachers. It doesn’t get prettier or better, folks. This is a bad law designed to make public schools fail.
Failure isn’t what I want for any of our children. But when we are forced to make decisions at the local and state levels because of laws at the federal level it just makes everyone’s job more difficult.
One of my concerns is whether 259 is accepting their responsibilities. From my outsider view it appears Winston Brooks is expecting WSU to prepare teachers to work in 259. I think he may be shirking his responsibilities while taking advantage of a STATE school that happens to physically be in the school district he is in charge of. The College of Education at a state school is required to prepare teachers for certification in the state, not a specific school district.
Does WSU teach someone to work at Beech? No, but they teach engineers and Beech accepts the responsibility of training that professional in the procedures and policies of their company.
Probably every company expects to provide training and mentoring to a new employee. It seems 259 expects to put a newly certified teacher into a classroom and turn over 25 very important accounts to that new employee without any (or enough) additional training. This new hire is an educated, certified teacher who still needs training in what this district requires.
USD259 is the state’s largest school district and as such I’m sure the paperwork and procedures, etc. are more detailed than at smaller districts. Just as a small Mom&Pop store could do tasks more simply than Kroger (Dillons parent).
Shouldn’t 259 expect the responsibility for training and mentoring new employees. Is this part of the reason for high turnover?
Am I way off in left field in my thinking?
Well, again from the perspective of an interested outsider, it appears that 259 has increased its efforts to provide mentors to new teachers. Then there are the “instructional coaches” (I forget the actual term) present in many buildings, or sent out to the buildings from “downtown” who are to assist all teachers, including new ones, in the performance of their responsibilities.
Another thing going on in 259 (as well as in many other large districts across the country, I’ve been told) is the PLC (Professional Learning Community), a time when teachers meet free of classroom responsibilities and share, across the disciplines, techniques and approaches to more successful methods of instruction. My jury is still out on this one, perhaps because I (freely admit) really don’t have a good handle on it, and it (PLC time) takes away from instructional time in the classroom. If this works as envisioned, it seems it would be another resource for faculty improvement.
Way off topic Vaughn, but it’s good to discuss something with an adult and even more refreshing to make the education of our children worthy of discussion. I realize the importance of our world problems. But if our world continues on, we hope tomorrow’s adults are better prepared than the current bunch seem to be. Seems we have too many in charge of too much who never learned the benefit of being a lifetime learner.
My read on NCLB is that all the burden, if one will, is on the schools and the teachers. Nowhere is there any accountability placed on the students, and thus, the students are free to “blow off” the assessments, etc., if they decide to so do. If some sort of accountability could be placed on the students for their performance, or lack thereof, on the assessments (as we seem to be stuck with these darned things), I think there would be a bit of incentive on them to be sure the assessments are taken seriously by the students. At the high school level, at least, the brighter ones are aware of the potential power they have (from discussions over the years with these students) to totally screw the school and the teachers therein should they desire.
You’re not kidding, are you? The few teenagers I’m in contact with are my grandsons and their friends. Guess IF they know of this potential power I wouldn’t be someone they would confide the info to.
Do you really think we’re stuck with NCLB? It is such a terrible law I don’t want to think it can’t / won’t be changed — the sooner the better.
Linda, I’m not kidding, as you have discerned. It’s a bit laughable to attend a Site Council meeting where this “power” is discussed and then dismissed as “well, they haven’t figured that out yet”, after spending some quality time on a Saturday or two with the musical students (building sets, to keep the record factual) and hearing them calmly discuss this very thing.
The public wants accountability in education; NCLB, for all its many faults, is perceived as providing accountability. I believe it will continue to exist, in some form, for many years. Given that, it needs overhauled dramatically.
As an example of how assessments vary; Kansas, like many other states, uses a multiple choice/multiple mark system of assessments (with a bit of writing done on the writing assessment, IIRC). I read an article last week that indicated Connecticut does not use such a system, but instead had a “find the answer, show the work” system for math assessments, with essays, etc. for writing and reading assessments. Much more time intensive to “grade”, to be sure, but all in all, a better form of assessment (since it seems to me we are doomed to deal with the same for the foreseeable future) than multiple choice/multiple mark.
And, to keep it straight, the students discussing their power also discussing their “pride in the school” as a reason to be present on assessment days and to do the best they can, dismissing some of their colleagues’ suggestions to “blow it off”.
Geez, I shouldn’t be posting this stuff in the open, should I (although I suspect this “power” is common knowledge)?
VT makes a great point about bright kids subversively undermining the system. They would not try to screw the school unless they felt the system was screwing them.
Why does this happen? The system is predicated on an Industrial Age command-and-control ideology that conflates education of children with mass indoctrination. Smart kids recognize the distinction.
This is not human-centered.
Do you want human-centered education? Poll kids. Ask them, Which would you prefer, we guarantee we will do what YOU want:
A. add 1 month to summer vacation to 16 weeks and shorten the school year,
B. take away 1 month of summer vacation to 8 weeks, and lengthen the school year,
C. Don’t change anything.
This isn’t a frivolous question. Unless the majority of responses is A, you have a failing educational system. Equating more time off with a more enjoyable life means that the working component is considered to be negative relative to having time off.
Working can be fulfilling. Learning that requires work can be fulfilling. When Janice Crowley used to announce at North High, and announces at Collegiate, “Anyone who’s interested in doing Science Olympiad, here’s a sign up sheet,, this will require you to do extra work, but it’s fun work,” has had no difficulty attracting students willing to work more.
USD 259, including its union, screwed this teacher. They should have said, “Tell us what you want and need. We are entirely supportive of great talent that does great things, and we see you have it. So write your own job description.”
VT,
Am I drawing out the real you? Maybeyour spouse J shoud be MS principal. And maybe N should be made MS math chair. And maybe I should be teaching science. Bring back JC too. And let’s see what this little experiment produces. ;-)
First off MPS…………..do you even KNOW Janice Crowley? I do. I seriously doubt that she would appreciate the fact that you are using her to bash community schools. There are many High Schools, and Middle Schools in USD 259 sponsor Science Olympiad teams. I have worked with them for a number of years. It’s tough fielding a team with limited resources. Of course you wouldn’t know this, but Wichita actually hosted the National SO tournament this past spring.
To correct as statement you made: “USD 259, including its union, screwed this teacher.” UTW is NOT part of USD 259. UTW is comprised of teachers who are employed by USD 259, that’s a big difference. Again, you don’ty know Janice, do you? Do you know for FACT Janice feels she “got screwed”?
On you 7:18 post…………forget it, you’ll never teach science in USD 259 without a teaching license.
One other thing MPS……….I personally know 2 outstanding teachers who LEFT Collegiate this year to join and re-join USD 259. One teaches at Bostic, the other at Hadley MS.
Schools often decide what they’ll focus on based on who is available to lead it. There simply hasn’t been a sponsor at East who has energetically organized a Science Olympiad program for some years. It’s too bad, because there are kids who would be great, but it’s been a pretty shoestring operation for a while. Let’s see how the National Merit awards come out. Here’s betting USD 259 will take care of business there, as it has for many years.
Science Olympiad is just one activity. Check debate, forensics, music, and Scholars’ Bowl awards. USD 259 schools do just fine.
Agreed Howard…………..watch for a future MPS post trashing USD 259 for some reason or another.
It is so predictable.
Thank you to ALL the teachers who may be reading or posting. You do a wonderful and all too often thankless job. You are appreciated!
Thank you very much lindainks55!
Maybe some your sentiment will rub off on the anti-community school crowd who frequents this blog.
Apophis braggeed that his efforts got USD 259 BOE members elected. You can’t have it both ways, “We got the leadership WE want,” and say “The leadership is screwing us.”
On JC, do you think she left UD 259 to get a higher salary, better health and retirement benefits? If you think she did, go to the back left corner of the class and put the dunce cap on.
On so-called “outstanding teachers WHO left Collgeiate this year” what are Apophi’;s reasons that cause him to imply that Collegiate’s MS principal didn’t lobby them to stay? Maybe the principal’s judgment was, We can do better with other people.
Who knows? All that readers can judge is that Apophis never provides any testable data, such as statistics. This demonstrates why Apophis don’t have a scientific mind. Which is why he can’t teach science, his personal imaginings to the contrary notwithstanding.
On “forget is, you’ll never teach science in USD 259 without a teaching license,” True. Which is precisely one of Apophis’s territorial “this is our turf imperative” blinders. Can I teach young people science well? vs Can I teach in USD 259 without a license?” Yes to the first question and No to the second question. Two entirely different issues.
Teaching qualification, i.e. the ability to teach and inspire young people does not equal a state-issued teacher’s licence. If it were, then our Regents Universities would require teaching licenses.
My children are grown but are certainly success stories of 259 teachers. Now their children are benefiting from YOU who go over and above to influence the lives of our most precious resource.
I do wish we could get you pay increases and improved working conditions. Thank you seems really lame.
blah, blah, blah mps
It wasn’t bragging about the BOE elections, it is fact. Many educators worked with BOE candidates that we felt we (the teachers) could work with productively. So, yes we can have it both ways.
As for your assertion that I present “no testable data”…………where the hell is that coming from? The type of data you are referring to are test scores which you constantly decry as false indicators of an education system. That is, unless of course it is data that you feel personally supports your agenda. I don’t care to play your game. You know as well as I do that anyone can twist data around to make it say what you want it to say. We call that “spin”, and you do it every day on this blog.
This quote really makes me chuckle: “This demonstrates why Apophis don’t have a scientific mind. Which is why he can’t teach science, his personal imaginings to the contrary notwithstanding.”
Who are YOU to judge what I can or CANNOT do as an educator? Oh, that’s right, you are a nobody who doesn’t live in my district. You have no education credentials to judge me. Funny thing, my superiors (and parents) are quite happy with my performance as a Science Educator. This little diatribe will be a lot of fun to show to my fellow educators tomorrow. I think I will even forward your assertions to JC. I’m sure she won’t share your views either.
Face it MPS, you absolute hatred toward me and my profession taints your posts. It has to be embarrassing to you at some point considering how foolish you make yourself look.
One might swear that you’re a bushite lapdog with you constant attacks on the public education system.
Why do you hate our community schools so much mps?
I’m done for the night………..
Apophis doesn’t understand what I hate. I hate BS. Authoritarianism. People’s insistence on “This is the way we do things here,” even though what is done directly undermines the professed mission.
I hate anti-math and anti-science prejudice that has resulted in American children graduating with mathematics problem-solving skills that are equivalent to Estonians and Latvians, according to two independent assessments, Trends in Mathematics and Science Studies (TIMSS), and the Organization for Economic Co-Operation and Development’s Program for Student Assessment (PISA).
I hate public education’s vacuous self-esteem-building mantra that has caused American children taking TIMSS tests to self-rate their math skills as high, while other nations’ students self-rate their math skills as ordinary. But then, in math skills testing, other countries’ modest students trounce the full-of-themselves American students.
We see this pernicious ersatz self-esteem-boosting phenomenon in class grading. ACT, Inc. reports that students who average 22 on the ACT Math have also on average taken three or more high school math courses, which means they have taken at least Algebra II, and sometimes trigonometry, and they have earned a B average.
Then they go to our state universities, they take institutional placement tests, and where do they get placed? College algebra, which is Algebra II taught at double pace (in one semester).
I can understand “C” high school math students who’ve only completed general math and Algebra I, who decide to go to community college having to take Elementary Algebra.
But “B” students who have three or four years of mathematics under their belt retaking 10th grade math is unacceptable, IMO.
“B” used to translate as “good” performance. To wit, report cards used to show a grade-translation scale for parents’ edification:
A Excellent
B Good
C Average
D Needs ImprovementF Failed
Apophis can say my statements make his friends and spouse think I’m nuts, but here’s how things work outside the school property line: If you have to receive remediation, which is to say redo a course that your record says you have already taken, it means that your prior output was “needs improvement”. If your performance didn’t need improvement, it would perforce have been sufficient for you to move on to the next course that requires satisfactory proficiency in the first course as a prerequisite.
What does a “B” mean today? It means the public schools want to make students and parents feel good for work that needs major improvement–so major that the work must be redone from scratch when the students go to college.
Perplexed parents are saying, as happened to one KU freshman’s family I know, “Why do you have to take algebra again? You got B+’s in math. Your guidance counselor said you were ready for pre-calculus.”
Student: “The math department told me I have to take algebra first.”
Then this poor student got a D. The problem: he didn’t have sound study skills. He subsequently retook the course and passed. But a B+ in public high school equaling a D at our flagship public university tells us how bad public education is, in mathematics instruction. Teachers are flakily inventing “feel good” grades.
This young man isn’t a disaffected slacker. He’s got a friendly, humorous, upbeat personality. He’s in the KU band, having easily passed the tryout. He made Eagle Scout at age 15. He worked after school and summer jobs to pay for his own car: his parents bought it and then he paid them back without ever making a late payment. He’s got a credit card, and zeros the balance every month. He’s got a full-ride ROTC scholarship and lives in the honors-student dorm. In short, this young man is smart, heads up and responsible. But his public school pulled the rug out from under him in math.
His parents could have sent him to private school, but his mom, a public school teacher, had egalitarian instincts, and his father, a lawyer, went to excellent public schools back in the 60’s /70’s. Both parents are KU alums, and the father graduated cum laude.
Their formerly B+ son’s math struggle at KU was a real wake-up call. In retrospect, despite having completed the Regents Universities core college-preparatory math curriculum, this student really should have been placed in elementary algebra. Then he could have gotten a B.
So, in summary, we’re looking at international assessments that prove American public high schools are not teaching math properly. We’re looking at universities, basing their decisions on unpleasant experience over the past two decades, now ignoring high school transcripts’ illusory attestations that incoming students are ready for higher-level math, when the truth is, they aren’t.
I’ve talked with employers who are frustrated with sloppy work and “whatever” attitudes. They don’t want to spend time and money on attitude-adjustment.
Reality bites. Apophis has basically said, “Screw the outside world. We do what we want in our schools. I’m not answerable to anybody outside the school system.”
Excuse me for sounding “nuts” but our students, upon leaving school have to do things like get jobs and go to college. K-12 education is not an end in itself. It’s part of a process chain, and K-12 is proving to be a broken link.
If Apophis wants to have a self-contained, do what he wants system, he should have this opportunity, and be able to open a school for senior citizens whose livelihoods are in no way affected by the quality of the Apophis’s or his school’s teaching.
You can do whatever you want, if what you do does not have a negative impact on people. But if it does, then you have zero grounds to assert a claim on taxpayers’ money that can alternatively be used to have a positive impact on people as measurable in international tests, university readiness, and job performances that satisfy employers.
I hate conceit. The public education paradigm that anyone of moderately above average general intelligence can be trained, through instilling carefully crafted principles and practices of teaching curriculum, to teach anything, is lunatic.
Why? Because teaching is the transfer of knowledge. You can be a master of best-teaching practices, but if you lack core-subject mastery, you can’t teach a subject. Looked at another way, subject knowledge is spectral. If you only have middling knowledge, which is to say, if you have more familiarity and skills in a subject than say, the average college-educated John Q Citizen, but you nevertheless have measurable knowledge and skills gaps, that’s insufficient for teaching.
For example, teachers colleges’ requirements that future teachers earn a 2.5 or 2.75 GPA in academic courses related to their secondary certificates, is flat-out wrong. It should be 3.75.
The argument, “Well the other university students only have to earn a 2.0 GPA to earn their degrees, so our standard is higher,” is sophomoric. The other students are expected to acquire some knowledge, which a “C” demonstrates, but there is no expectation that after graduation they will be imparting their academic-subject knowledge to others.
If you say, “If we set a 3.75 GPA requirement, we couldn’t possibly recruit enough teachers. We can get some, but most high classroom performers want to go to law and medical school, earn Ph.D.’s, take high paying management / executive track jobs…”
This is a system problem. Are low salaries a problem? You have to understand that the original premise underlying low teachers salaries was that most teachers were women, who had a second “job”, i.e. home-making, so teaching was designed to be part-time. As the Bureau of Labor Statistics has shown, teachers actually make over $37/hr, which BLS ranks with or above, engineers, architects and accountants.
If we consider a full-time-work education system, should 1900 hours of teaching be paid $70,000, on average, with a starting salary average of say $50,000?
If we did this, would it vastly increase K-12 ed’s ability to attract high-performing university students? I would think so. Consider two people, finishing their degree programs, realizing, “When we get married, we’re going to making $100,000.”
There’s an old saying, “If you want to catch big fish, use big bait.”
Suppose a just-minted Ph.D. looks at university instructor jobs offering $40,000, with a 20% probability of eventually earning tenure, and he/she sees schools offering $50,000, with a 90% probability of eventually earning tenure. Which looks more attractive?
Is this too expensive? No. Because people who have mastered their subjects have the capacity to confer subject mastery upon many of their students, and solid proficiency upon most of their students. Higher performance qualifies graduates for well-paying careers, which feeds more tax revenues into the public treasury, which pays the teachers well. This is a virtuous cycle.
On teacher unionization, there is a rich and extensive literature on it. It started in big industrial cities whose leaders envisioned compulsory mass education as a means of “cleansing” unwashed immigrants’ children of their parents’ “bad influences”. The idea was to enable industrialists to get rich using low-paid laborers who were entrained to tedium.
The story of valiant teachers who were abused, threatened with firing, even physical harm, but stood up to the greedy evil masters, ignores a salient point: the teachers accepted the proposition of participating in the capitalists’ scheme to exploitively mold young people to be minions of the industrial machine. The teachers didn’t reject the scheme, they just wanted better remuneration for an inherently unpleasant and unfulfilling task.
The problem isn’t industrialization’s imperatives per se. It’s actually something very old, feudalism. In the Middle Ages, serfs and free peasants worked on somebody else’s land–the nobleman’s. There was chronic strife. The king demanded payment from the noblemen to cover his expenses, ranging from a lavish lifestyle, to fighting other kingdoms. The local lord exerted constant pressure on the workers to produce so that the king would be placated, and the local lord could enjoy the good life.
The peasants had the power of overwhelming human numbers. If they revolted, they could overpower the local baron’s guards and either “negotiate better terms” or behead the boss.
So the peasants’ output was split into shares in a manner that maintained stability. During times of poor crops, the local nobleman would increase the land-tillers’ share, because it would be disastrous to impose famine, as no baron wanted his head to be mounted on a stake. When bumper crops occurred, the baron increased the proportions of the shares going to him and the king.
It wasn’t frippery that the super-rich late 18th and early 19th century industrialists were labeled “Robber Barons”. Immigrant industrial workers had no difficulty recognizing the “Meet the New Boss, Same as the Old Boss” parallelism.
The big-city teachers basically said, “We’ll work to satisfy the barons, but we want higher pay to do this.”
Small-city, small-town and rural teachers, on the other hand didn’t unionize, because schools were envisioned as being community enterprises, and communities’ businesses were overwhelmingly small and non-unionized.
Now, in Wichita, which during and after WWII metamorphosed into an big industry city (aviation in particular), it is easy to see why teacher unionization occurred–it followed worker unionization at the aircraft plants.
Unfortunately, aviation, and unionized worker employment has been on a downward trajectory for the past four decades.
In order for today’s Wichita children to succeed, they will not be able to get “automatic” jobs at Boeing or Spirit, Lear or Cessna. They’re going to have to be nimble and versatile. The American economy isn’t collapsing, but it is changing.
When Boeing proposed selling its civil aviation facilities to Onex, the writing was on the wall: Boeing didn’t want to be saddled with high labor costs. Onex’s directors didn’t either. So they proposed wage and benefits cuts. Rejected by the union. Then Onex took a different tack: wage and benefits cuts, combined with employee stock ownership. This completely changed the traditional dynamic of owners vs. workers, to workers becoming owners. Will this work? Only time will tell.
I’ve mentioned before public school coaches’ jobs being dependent on their success in training student-athletes.
Public school teachers and bureaucrats have been unique in evading their employment being dependent on system job-holders’ output, i.e. metrics such as their graduates who desire to go to college having college-level entry knowledge and study skills, and their work-headed graduates having skills sufficient to earn living wages.
Finally, most public school graduates end up working in the private sector. For a teacher to deny having an obligation to prepare the vast majority of his students for private sector employment, would be quintessentially loopy.
We know that public education was created to fulfill this function of preparing students for private-sector employment. If some of its members want to disattach public education from this mission, that’s fine. They’re free to find ways to fund their mission using means other than taxpayer dollars, and discover if anyone is interested in voluntarily contributing operational funds, and attending their classes.
Some more of my questions and some thoughts on the current state of K-12 education, generally. Probably will not be favorably accepted by many or perhaps all who read.
1) Why must there be chronological grouping of students rather than groupings based on abilities? I know that not all “education” occurs in the classroom; I’ve heard the arguments for “socialization”, but it seems to me that no one benefits from forced attendance at a particular level based solely upon the age of the student.
2) Why must we continue the agrarian model school year?
3) Why cannot there be school choice within the public schools located within a district by offering “open enrollment” among the buildings? I’m not speaking merely of magnet programs here, but rather X lives on the East side of town, and would like for his/her student to enjoy the academic offerings of Northwest, for example. Shouldn’t X be allowed to enroll the student at Northwest without all the nonsense of administrative transfers, etc? There would need to be restrictions, of course, centered around this choice where extra-curricular activities drive the same.
4. Why cannot there be eligibility requirements (state-wide, in this case) for such extra-curricular participation which have a few more teeth than the current KSHSAA regulations? I would suggest that no one be allowed to participate in any extra-curricular activities unless he/she has a 2.5 or better GPA in all classes, computed and reported weekly, and the “passing” of the last round of state assessments the student has been exposed to.
5) Why cannot teacher’s compensation reflect the supply/demand for a particular discipline or disciplines? In my world, those legal specialties which are in short supply garner higher compensation, as a rule, for services from clients. Just as not all attorneys are paid the same in all fields, and all attorneys do not practice or profess to practice in all fields, should there not be a reflection in the areas of compensation for those in fields where there exists a shortage?
6) I believe the most important teachers are those who teach at the level of K-5, where the basic skills are hopefully taught. Should there not be some differential in compensation to reflect this? I hold that students who cannot read well, write well, and who do not have the basic arithmetic skills at the time they are to go on to middle school are doomed, in large part, to frustration and failure as they proceed through their remaining school years.
7) How to create and adopt some form of external evaluation by which teachers who show better than average success in education of the students entrusted to him/her receive better compensation than those whose students stay the same, so to speak; and those whose students stay the same receive better compensation than those whose students regress.
8) Why should not there be a high stakes, if you will, assessment to be taken/passed as a condition precedent to graduation? Put some sort of accountability on the student for once.
There are many other issues, such as overcrowding in classrooms, etc. that need addressing.
I feel it necessary to state that I’m a supporter of public education, that the system is currently not perceived as functioning well, and there needs to be effort devoted to “fixing” the problems.
MPS, All too often when I start talking I use too many words and have trouble getting to my point. Sometimes I lose my audience before I ever get there. One day a good lady friend stopped me in a long-winded rant to ask, “Linda, what color dress were you wearing?”
So this question has become my way of reminding myself to leave out what doesn’t make my message more clear. It’s something I have to work on and I’m not “there” yet but getting better.
MPS, what color shirt are you wearing today?
If Apohis disagrees with statistics I present–I don’t invent them, I just report them–and if they are skewed and misleading, how hard would it be for him to present other statistics in the same topical area to reveal my skewing. But, notice he doesn’t do that.
He does tell you how other teachers and parents think he’s great. Is this true? How do you readers know this is true? You readers cannot find out, because notice Apophis doesn’t disclose his identity, the first necessary step to enabling readers to test his claims as either true or false. That’s anti-scientific, and anti-democratic.
I’m signing off here, for now. It is up to people who rely on their education to make a living, and their employers, i.e. those who provide livings to other people, to ultimately decide what they want local education institutions to do, and to figure out how the institutions will do it. Good luck!
1. I think there is merit to your suggestion that abilities rather than age be used in grouping students, but only to a degree. Children need social peers as well as mental peers. There is much to be learned to be successful and it’s not all in a book. My five year old may be ready to read at the level of an nine year old but not ready to compete where manual dexterity is needed… Let’s leave time to be children, it goes so fast anyway.
2. Seems this year was a small step away from the agrarian model school year. And I was among those who complained that mid August was too early to start school. Small steps, maybe? None of us do change really well.
3. If a particular school is important then move to that attendance center. That is a choice.
4. Take ALL the fun out of school? Party pooper! I think we need to making learning MORE fun.
5. You asked, “Why cannot teacher’s compensation reflect the supply/demand for a particular discipline or disciplines?” I don’t know if we would be addressing quality and suspect it would only address quantity.
6. Parents are probably still the most important. That said, once the parent has prepared the child to learn and instilled an attitude of respect for learning those basics are absolutely important. Small class size in the elementary levels are very important.
7. I also would like to reward our brightest and best.
8. Not every student can be measured in the same way as another. Don’t we already have enough assessments in place? Probably too many. Maybe the kinds of assessment need to be refined.
You know, I’m neither smart enough, nor educated or experienced enough to make judgments or even recommendations. I know we have great talent and interested teachers who give our children opportunities to succeed. The parents and the students need to fulfill their responsibilities in the learning process. Public schools are vital! And they do a good job. I’m glad there are options but have a great deal of confidence in our public schools and get angry that laws like N.C.L.B. seem to be designed to make our schools appear as failures when they aren’t!
Linda,
I don’t think the parents should have to move just so their student(s) may attend a particular attendance center. It seems to me that with state funding, etc., any student within a particular district should have the choice of attendance centers to attend within that district. Many won’t select any place other than the “normal” one, I believe; but shouldn’t those who have a desire to take advantage of a particular curriculum or set of classes offered at a certain site be allowed to so do?
On the extra-curriculars, the “job” of students is to attend school. I just don’t think that unless the student is doing OK in school there should be anything to distract from the schooling.
On the “supply-demand” argument, sure, quantity vs. quality is an ever-present concern; right now, it seems to me, in certain areas (secondary level math and science, e.g.) there is not quantity, and I suspect in light of the shortage, there may be some possibility of dimunition of quality just to have the teaching slot filled.
Assessments; yes, there are too many, and of the wrong kind. My thinking above is based somewhat on the New York State Regents’ Exams, which I understand have been in place for quite a while, and are a condition for a diploma.
School year; why nine consecutive months, more or less, with a three month period of time to “unlearn” things. I’m for 12 month schools, with appropriate breaks, etc., which would have the students and teachers in the classrooms likely no more than what they are now, with less time needed to get the students back “up to speed”. Teacher, etc., compensation would, of course, need to be adjusted for this.
On NCLB, that system is broken, as designed. To add to my comments of yesterday, it will continue, as modified, for a while, at least, as one of the great early political victories of the administration was getting Sen. Kennedy to co-sponsor the original legislation. I believe he saw a need for accountability, and the administration bill was the best chance. I know he’s been critical of the funding shortfalls from the federal side since, but I’ve not detected any change in his basic support for the concept.
A note on the AYP information in today’s Eagle. You will note Superintendent Brooks’ comments about subgroups. The law demands not only overall AYP, but also AYP within each subgroup. Someone likely knows this better than I, but for there to be a subgroup, there must be at least 30 students similarly situated within a building, etc., for the same to exist. Thus, it is well within the realm of probability for a particular building to not be showing satisfactory AYP due to the scores of one or more subgroups, but otherwise show satisfactory AYP as a building, and, depending upon the subgroup’s relative size in relation to the overall number of students completing the assessments, for the building to meet the so-called “Standard of Excellence” in one or more of the assessed areas, although not showing AYP due to the subgroup’s (or subgroups’) scores.
Is there really that much difference in schools within 259? Don’t include the magnets and alternative schools which are applied to and have waiting lists… I know saying “Move,” was too flippant an answer. I don’t have one that is good.
I know you aren’t the party pooper you sound like! There are other and better ways to motivate than punishment or denial. I agree that school is the student’s job. But children are like eager sponges when the learning is fun. Perhaps the under achiever is a signal of something more and we need to find out what that underlying problem is.
I agree with you about the year round school for all the excellent reasons you listed. I just don’t know how that big a change can be made and accepted by the parents. Even if it’s a good change most don’t / won’t realize that.
More parents (both) are employed today and even having children in more than one school and keeping up with Inservice days which are different from school to school is a challenge for parents. Maybe even a burden for some. Isn’t there also more “shared custody” in today’s world?
This year-round school with appropriate breaks would need to take all those complications into consideration. Then after all that due diligence we would still have to face CHANGE and dealing with that isn’t easy. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be done just that I think gradual might be the way it happens.
I can’t say I completely understand the subgroups. The whole law is so convoluted it makes my head spin. Maybe after we get rid of bushco. There will be so many problems to address when that happens. I hope someone thinks education and that broken N.C.L.B. law is worthy of being put high on the long list. I don’t really have any confidence in any of the bunch so I won’t hold my breath. Maybe when we hold that REVOLUTION OF THE PEOPLE we can fix this too!
Back to the original post for a bit. It seems curious to me that a school with an Arabic language offering is automatically labeled a Madrassa, given the shortage of qualified Arabic language translators, etc., reported as existing in the military, the CIA, other government departments. While supervision needs to be in place, to be sure, to ensure the school is teaching the language, and not Wahabi (e.g.) doctrine, methinks there was not enough time spent by the opponents in taking a look at the academy itself.
The idea behind the subgroups was admirable, as flawed as the execution may be. Conceptually, there have been identified certain subsets of the set of K-12 students who, as a generalization, do not do as well in school. Thus, it is necessary to measure progress within these individual subsets to ensure the members thereof are receiving their “fair share” of education.
An example; if there is a group of African-American students in a building, and for whatever reason, as a group, these individuals don’t perform as well on the assessments, then to bolster overall performance of the building on the assessments, the members of this group are invited to not attend school on the assessment days. Another example; the achievement gap. By not measuring subgroups, can it be demonstrated this gap is closing, with the performance of the subgroup masked in the overall data concerning the assessed students as a whole?
While it is still possible to game the assessment results in a number of ways, insisting on subgroup reporting at least hinders the more outrageous attempts to hide their performance if it is sub-par. I’m still not a fan of NCLB, but I believe I have a fragmentary grasp on what was hoped to be accomplished by the insistence on subgroup reporting.
BTW, Linda, lest I forget, I’ve truly enjoyed our conversation on this thread.
Me too, Vaughn! Education and our children who are our future are topics near and dear to my heart. I want what’s best for the most and I think public education is where it’s at.
BTW, my daughter said if I was willing to take in a few more grandchildren it would help lots of parents deal with the school’s schedules and Inservice days.
When I worked I was always an advocate for every working woman needing a wife. Guess every parent could use a grandparent to help out.
But what is it about this place? Did you notice that I called you a name? Even tho I finally admitted knowing you aren’t a party pooper, I did call you one. ;-)
well, would you look at this:
“East — Katelyn Gao, Tiffany Ho, Gregory Kimball, Brian Klager, Adam Koenig, Molly Martens, Anastasia Metzger, Michael Reynolds, Emily Thomas, Ragini Venkatasubban, Matthew Vines, Aubrey Wadman-Goetsch, Calvin Wang and Margaret Wilkes —– East, which offers an intensive International Baccalaureate program that prepares students for college, is the only Wichita public school with semifinalists this year.”
Gee MPS, let’s look at this DATA. Let’s see you trash these hard working students at East. Remember, they are part of what you consider a “second-rate” IB program. This is the DATA that matters. These students busted their butts and rose to the challenges their teachers presented to them in order to excel to this level. Should there be more students like this in USD 259? Yes, without a doubt. Should you condemn the entire system because there is NOT? I think the obvious answer to this question is a resounding NO!
Apophis,
I went to a cowtown parochial high school that didn’t have strong academics. The three nearby public high schools didn’t have strong academics.
In my senior year, the “best” public had 2 NMS finalists out of 500 graduates. We had 2 NMS finalists out of 80 students.
I was one of them. My high school education was anemic, particularly because I was given high grades for cramming. University was a real shock. Fortunately I watched cohorts who were doing well, and what they were doing was studying a lot more than I, because they went to schools that demanded it.
My oldest son’s school announced he was an NMS Letter of Commendation winner, and he got a certificate. But we later discovered that this was for his 10TH GRADE PSAT, which the school gave to help kids prep. He missed the actual 11th grade test. We never learned why. Out sick, perhaps.
He got a high Verbal but low Math score on the “prep” run. After post-10th-grade home-summer remediation, his SAT Math score zoomed. Bottom line, had he taken the test as a junior, he would have been a semifinalist, and his grades, extracurriculars, teachers’ recs, and his superb essay-writing ability would have made him a finalist.
He attended an academically anemic school.
The SAT and PSAT are well-known measurers of parental education, not school quality. The only student in my son’s class to make finalist had two Stanford-educated parents. My son had two doctors for parents.
I’m not going to track down the new data, but in 2004, ca 80% of Kansas PSAT takers had bachelor-degreed parents, and 44% of their parents had graduate or professional degrees. The median family income of Kansas PSAT takers was over $70,000. The College Board posts this data on its website collegeboard.com. You may have to register to examine the data, but it’s free.
I can assure you that whatever the parental educational demographics of East high’s PSAT takers are, they are far above East High and district averages.
The IB program is irrelevant to the semifinalists’ achievement, because students take the PSAT in their second month of the programme. The pre-IB programme is irrelevant because East High was getting 13-15 semifinalists several years ago before the pre-IB programme was implemented.
The cutoff score for qualification in Kansas, reportedly 213 this year, is 4 points lower than Colorado, and 11 points lower than Illinois and Massachusetts. To wit, the number of semifinalists in every state is set to correspond to each state’s calculated share of the national 11th grade population. If a national cut score was used, it is unlikely that East High would have 14 semifinalists, because Kansas’s cutoff is lower than that of most states, including all large-population states except Florida.
Finally, it’s no mystery that East High’s only-college-prep-game-in-town magnetically draws the vast lion’s share of local college- and graduate / professional-degreed parents’ young talented offspring. Wichita has thousands of engineers and several hundred doctors. This is how East high gets 14 NMS semifinalists.
If you siphon and pool the talent from other schools normal residential-zone service areas, by severely limiting their AP program development, you naturally concentrate NMS finalists in one school.
Collegiate has a higher semifinalist / total #11th graders ratio than East. It draws talent. Based on 10th-grade prep scores, Independent thinks it could should get at least 4 semifinalists next year, versus 2 this year. The curriculum hasn’t changed, but the school has drawn a historic bumper crop of talent into the Class of 2009.
If you’d like to learn more about the National Merit Scholarship program, I’d be happy to provide more information for your edification.
Wouldn’t it be easier to print the skools who actually passed?It would save ink and the Earth and all.
Oh, I cannot let your canard go by.
I never trashed the East high semifinalists or any other East High IB student. Find the thread in which I did this.
You have a serious fact-distortion and misrepresentation problem, IMO. I really don’t appreciate your attempt to maliciously smear me, and discredit me in front of readers by fabricating out of your corrupt imagination statements that I have criticized hard-working and talented students. I am solely criticizing adults like you, of whom other WEBloggers who have read your vicious polemic, including four-letter words that the Eagle would not publish in print, have said, “I sure wouldn’t want my kid in your class.”
What kind of example do you set for children, one must wonder? If your personality in class is indicated in any measure by your behavior here, it cannot be good.
BTW, you said your colleagues and wife laugh at my statements. Have they read your posts? Do they think you are conveying a professional public image on behalf of district teachers?
You see MPS, that is the difference between you and I.
I don’t post to enhance any “professional public image”. I have stated consistently that I do not care what you or any other poster thinks about me. I only post here to attack those who criticize public education. Occassionally, I will chime in on other issues I care about, but mainly it is you and your cronies I go after.
Again, I do NOT care what you think of me as an educator. Your opinion and that of others is irrelevent. You have already made up your mind about the education system. There is no compromise with your type. YOU are the enemy and I will challenge you at every turn.
I don’t claim to be the (copy/paste) “expert” on education unlike you. You brainlessly post long diatribes that you think make you look knowledgable about education issues. That is what we laugh about, on an almost daily basis. You should join the O’Reilley show, your level of SPIN rivals his!
Well, off to the salt mines again!
Apophis,
When you post and represent yourself to be an office-holding teachers’ representative, and an award-winning science teacher, the difference between you and me is, I would judge that it is in the interests of your colleagues, your school, and the district to demonstrate a professional level of discourse that moves readers, particularly those who WANT to support public education, and want to have good reasons to do so, to conclude, “Our schools are in good hands.”
These public-eduction-supportive readers do NOT WANT to be disconcerted to read a local education leader’s rants, invectives, and patently demagogic, red-herring-laced, non-sequitur-dependent forms of what the leader-spokesperson believes to be “useful debating methods and points”.
As the debator-in-chief for local schools, you are sending your would-be supporters a disappointing message.
“I only post here to attack those who criticize public education.”
You may not care what you are doing, but there are readers here who do. They care about the future of children, whether they be their own progeny, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, their neighbors’ children, young Wichitans whom they want to hire if diligence and a do-the-job-well ethic is present. And if they can solve problems on their own initiative, that is a BIG PLUS.
There is an up vs. down difference between somebody posting fact-and-reason based criticism, and somebody else posting fact-and-reason based retorts vs. somebody posting fact-and-reason based criticism, and somebody else posting vitriolic tantrums.
You are the one charged with educating what is now thousands of young Wichitans. This includes behavioral modeling. No one likes to see young people who do not exercise impulse control. You have demonstrated at least one source of undesirable behavior modeling. Or perhaps we can blame 12-13 year olds for modeling your behavior. In either case, it is wholly unfortunate.
There are differences between you and me. For example, if I were a teachers union leader, I would ensure that substitute teachers were paid an hourly wage that equaled that of regular teachers, i.e. thirty-something dollars an hour.
A reasonable person thinks, “If my kid is going to have a substitute on inservice days and sick days, I want somebody who will communicate in advance with the regular teacher, study the lesson plan, and cover the regular teacher’s class seamlessly.”
Substitute teachers equal lost instructional days baby sitting, because union-thinking devalue ssubstitutes as “second class citizens”. This reveals not a democratic ethos, but feudal tribal instincts. When your union does this, it proves itself to be an opponent to healthy and sound public education, and the community’s welfare.
I’m criticise anti-math and anti-science domination in public education.
I’m not the one who came up with the idea to curtail math and science learning for high school teachers. In the old days, people earned regular college of liberal arts and sciences math and science degrees. In looking for jobs, some of them were offered high school, and junior high teaching jobs.
They didn’t have education bachelor’s degrees. Somehow they were able to teach math and science.
Who came up with the idea of assigning to colleges of education the job of training future math and science teachers? People who resented math and science. So they created new “major” programs that curtailed future high school teachers’ math and science courses, substituting ed courses instead.
The result was that people who loved math and science, who didn’t want their junior and senior year courses to be expunged from their pathways, said, “I don’t want to follow the teacher-licensure track. I liked the old prospect of earning a regular CLAS degree in my field, and having an option to teach or pursue other careers, but I reject the new rule that my subject studies must be trashed, in order for ed classes to take their place, which demeans my love for science, and takes away my other career options by leaving me with, if I choose the teacher-training track, an incomplete, second-rate math & science education.” This is anti-public-education because it severely diminishes public math and science teacher knowledge, and thus the impartment of knowledge to students.
I’m against putting thousands of Wichita children on buses every day, wasting 60-90 minutes of their time every day in mindless bus-sitting. This scheme is anti-public education, because the students are members of the public, busing impairs their education.
Again MPS, I do NOT care what you or any other “reader” thinks about me. It is irrelevent what you think.
Do you ever read your posts?
Do you see how you birdwalk away from the thread topic?
Do you see that you are always taking a position that is NOT going to happen?
Read my lips MPS, I do NOT care what you think.
Linda had an important insight earlier about kids having fun. I hope, and surmise she meant kids having fun doing productive things. Such as the North High Science Olympiad winners of the early 90s,the Maize winners of the late 90s.
Here are some National Science Olympiad participants’ inspiring reflections of what the experience did for them.
http://www.indiana.edu/~nso/registration/WhereAreTheyNow06.pdf
I have to ask, why did our local public high schools let SO go? The only answer I can conceive is, it wasn’t that important. It wasn’t that important for administration to say to the coaches, “Look, we don’t want to lose this great program. We don’t want to lose you. What will it take to convince you to stay here?”
The programs didn’t have to be lost. The only question is, what were the schools willing to do to keep them going? Not enough. Apparently in the big scheme of things, other priorities were more important. I’ll speculate that a larger priority could have conceivably been to drive more highly talented students to East High, draining them from North. East High was set up to be a showcase magnet. It couldn’t be a showcase if other city high schools had attractive features. This was a loss to our public school system, because East didn’t take up the baton, it was passed on to the privates.
We know evil. It is oppression. It is that which creates chronic pain, malaise and disheartenment.
Consider public education, not as it has to be, but as it is. Forced confinement for 13 years. The only modern institutions of similar constitution are prisons and chronic-”care” facilities for the severely disabled and incapacitated. Yes, children are freed from afternoon to early morning, and on weekends and vacations, but this was true for slaves.
“You must be here, whether you like it or not.”
Now, to have systems that sometimes impose unpleasantry, but overall create happiness, is one thing. To impose chronic unhappiness for 13 years upon millions of children, only relieved by the “recess” periods, is evil, because it violates basic humanitarian principles and rights.
We have, millions of boys taking Ritalin, Adderal, and other “ADD/ADHD” drugs, because they “don’t behave” unless medicated. Being a boy per se is now a major risk factor for “psycho-social non-adjustment”.
Maybe they are would-be-healthy kids who are made sick by daily forced confinement, “warehousing”, “factory schools”. There are millions of boys who are taken off medication during vacation periods, but have to be restarted when school begins. How hard is it to figure out the “take home lesson” here? Are one out of ten boys are “Learning Disabled”, or are schools tormenting normal kids and then blaming them for not “fitting in”?
When I took my second son out of school, why did I do it? Because he was severely unhappy. That was THE REASON. His teacher caused him to believe he was “dumb”, and I knew that was an evil judgment per se, but it was his severely injured self-perception and feelings of imprisonment in a torture cell that moved me to free him. He became happy at home. There are almost no teachers in a school environment who are qualified to act in loco parentis, i.e. in substitution for parents.
This is a fraudulent doctrine. In loco parentis originated as fathers voluntarily assigning to tutors paternal duties. The notion of the state invoking parent-involuntary assumption of parental duties, as repeatedly cited and supported by Clarence Thomas in Morris v. Frederickson, is an inimical corruption.
I believe in public education, potentially. But what we have is based on a completely obsolete, human-potential-diminishing paradigm. By instituting choice, we can rebuild public schools into institutions that make children happy to be in them, and achieving their human potentials.
What don’t you get about choice in Wichita, mps? A parent can choose to enroll their student in any school in their community. This includes assigned boundary neighborhood schools and “magnet” facilities. If that isn’t good enough for you, there is always the choice of private and/or parochial schools.
This sounds alot like “choice” to me.