A Wichita pharmacist was justified and acted in self-defense in shooting to death an armed robber last month, the Sedgwick County district attorney’s office has ruled. Judging by the circumstances, the ruling sounds right.
But it was sad and poignant nonetheless to learn that the would-be robber, Alexander Mies, was a former high school football standout who became addicted to painkillers after a long series of knee operations. And to read that he had a gentle, compassionate side. And that his gun was not loaded.
No, that doesn’t change how we see the ruling or excuse what he did, but it casts the fatal outcome more in shades of gray than black and white. Like most shootings, justified or not, this was a tragedy for all concerned.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- JimJohnson on Late-night laughs
- JimJohnson on Late-night laughs
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- thomaswitt on Let immigrants run
- ANTI on Open thread 11/23
- minutelady on Open thread 11/23
- Phantom on Open thread 11/23
- minutelady on Open thread 11/23
- XXX on Open thread 11/23
- ANTI on Let immigrants run
84 Comments
Yes, the DA’s determination is correct. Yes, this is a tragedy for all involved. This tragedy could have been averted had the young man put down his weapon, as requested multiple times (according to the media reports) by the pharmacist. At that point, had he done so, there was the existence of some possibility he might have received help for his addiction as a part of the process. He didn’t accede to the request, and the rest is history.
A shooting is always a tragedy. The history of this young man makes it even more so than most, though I’m sure nearly every story of a life gone awry and ended in similar circumstances has a sad
and tragic story attached.
It’s a tragedy as well for the gentleman who was forced to pull the trigger that day. Having never taken a life (and I hope and pray I never have to), I have little doubt that the burden of that will weigh on him.
But no, that doesn’t change the determination here.
I think it’s more than black and white– surely it brings more solace to the family during their loss to not allow the outward symptoms of addiction to define Alex Mies as a person. I’m sure that, unlike a movie script in which a robber is a bit part, he had a greater depth of character than just a lust for chemicals to ease the pain of withdrawal. Addiction is a bad animal, it affects millions of people, and the sad fact is that Alex died of the complications of addiction: Armed robbery to feed the monster is not an uncommon practice. It’s easy to automatically say “Another dead scumbag,” but obviously this “scumbag” had a life prior to addiction that meant something to someone.
That said, threatening another human life with deadly force or in this case the threat of deadly force (the gun was not loaded, although the pharmacist could not have known that) grants that person the absolute right to defend their own life. Even if it means ending the life of the threatening individual. The tragedy of personal pain and addiction does not confer blamelessness on the part of the perpetrator; it allows us to understand the motives, and question why the problem was able to escalate to the point that he was willing to commit armed robbery. There is help out there for those who seek it, but convincing the addict to go is difficult, and treatment against one’s will is nearly impossible.
I would gladly attempt to help someone get help who was suffering or struggling. I would refer them to counseling (I have had to deal with these kinds of things at work) if possible. However, when asking becomes demanding, and someone points a firearm or other deadly weapon at me, they’d best be prepared for the consequences of such an action.
Another fiasco death in the horrible “war on drugs”. This is another reason all drug use should be decriminalized. Treated just as any other personal issue. If problems arise for some…treat them the same as alcohol for some. Control but do not make everyone a criminal.
The illegality just drives the price up and this makes them more available. The more they are illegal, the higher the price and hence more is available. Its called Capitalism at work…or a market economy. Look at what happens to Wheat or Corn when the price goes up….more of it.
Make it legal and controlled at certain stores and you also go away with the gangs and cartels at the same time. Take the money out of it…
You dont see Al Capone types running Beer anymore…its legal and controlled.,,and little money anymore.
But you do see Al Capone type running drugs etc….its ILLEGAL and not controlled but there is a market and always will be, and a lot of money solely because its illegal….so it is met by the market.
The only help he would have gotten would have been time behind bars.If you can afford to send your housekeeper out to cop a deal for you, you will get sympathy from the rw. Otherwise, you are just one of the scumbags that Rush used to tell us needs locked up, and throw away the key.
Addicted or not, he chose to break the law and threaten another’s wellbeing and he paid the price for that.
Many people are prescribed painkillers after a trauma but they don’t allow themselves to become addicted. And of those who do – a tiny percentage actually break the law to get their ‘fix.’
Playing football isn’t anything to be proud about. Anyone with some brawn can run around and knock other idiots down. Playing football has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that this boy turned bad.
Good riddance.
Jeez, Sheridan. Could you be just a little more cold?
I think I have a really unique perspective here as someone who has had long term chronic pain, and long term prescriptions for painkillers.
Something overlooked from the medical community often, is that people don’t stop hurting even when there are no signs of it on an xray machine. Could this kid have still been in pain? Could it be that the doctor mistook his pain as dependence when it was actually tolerance to the medication? Considering how many doctors are always freaking out about ‘drug seekers’…I can see it being an issue.
Every so often, my body acclimates to the medication that I have to switch over to something else. It gets to the point where no amount of lortab is enough- and I really think that after awhile, it starts making my pain WORSE. I feel BEST in the first two weeks after changing meds- even if I go to something less strong. Lucky for me, I have a great doctor who knows how to manage my pain- we alternate medications so that I can reduce my tolerance to any one medication. At one point we were looking at going to morphine, and I absolutely did not want to make that leap, because once going to that- there is nowhere higher that you can go- and if I got into an acute pain situation like a surgery, I’d be out of luck.
Things start feeling really desperate when you have intractible pain. At one point, I even considered going to marijuana for pain control because my doctor at the time was ignoring me. That was when I went to Wichita to deal with that SUPPOSED chronic pain specialist who was more worried about my insurance than my pain! HORRIBLE DOCTOR.
Dennis- I think her comments are what is meant by the term “Compassionate Conservative”.
I suffer from daily pain and deal with it. I don’t like the feeling of being in a stupor and I usually sleep all the time after taking pain medication. I only take it when it becomes quite intolerable, which is periodically. By intolerable I mean can’t move, paralyzing pain and almost to the point of passing out – not quite, but it sometimes feels like it.
I agree with Sheridan, happy riddance.
PS: Mike Vick, OJ, etc all played football too!
JOIN THE GNOSTIC LIBERATION FRONT TODAY!!!
I never feel like I’m in a stupor- NEVER. I can’t be in a stupor- I have to function. In the beginning I took the least amount (2.5mg) that I could to get effect without the negatives. Of course, now, I can take enough that would have knocked me out cold a few years ago- and it doesn’t even feel like I’m taking anything at all.
It is very tragic that someone would have to resrot to threatening someone elese life to get drugs.
It is a good thing that law abiding citizens now have the ability to protect themselves from individuals like this with concealed carry and continue to be able to defend themselves in their place of business as well.
And if he hadn’t had concealed carry, this young man would be alive. Probably in jail, but alive, and the others would have been alive too.
One life taken due to concealed carry unneedlessly. Was the pharmacist wrong? No. But it was unneccessary.
Now the pharmacist will have to deal with what ifs, what if he’d shot not to kill, but to blow the kids legs out from under him. You’re not going to miss with a shotgun.
Political Mom,
We only know that now.
When you are staring at someone holding a gun and threatening your life with it, things are a bit different.
Besides, this was not concealed carry. The guy simply kept a shotgun in his business.
Query: how does a pharmacist using a “pistol grip shotgun” to (properly) defend himself equate to concealed carry?
The Phantom,
Anyone who has done any kind of self defense training with a weapon knows and understands what deadly force is.
When you have to shoot someone, you shoot to kill. It is deadly force.
If you shoot the guy in the legs he can still shoot back.
I’m sorry, I should use the politically correct term:
You shoot to “stop the threat”
I realize that Nathan. I said I don’t fault him for what he did.
Most of the time, there really is no threat to the businessowner. Often they just want the goods and they leave.
But the one time there could be a guy who wants to shoot someone just because. I’d rather not take the chance myself, so I do understand. I’m just saying, this was one of those ‘pro life’ situations you and I often discuss. Was there a real threat to the guy’s life? No, but it sure was perceived to be at the time. And he was right to defend himself. Just like…other situations you and I often discuss.
Nathan,Thrats are in the eye of the (be)holder, and some jokers perceive anything as a threat. Wasn’t it just a few years ago that a Japanese student who knocked on a door in Louisiana to ask for directions got blown away by someone who perceived a threat? That was somehow ruled justifiable too.
Jed,
A threat is NOT in the eye of the beholder.
It is the responsiblity of everyone to know and understand the self defense laws where they live.
You can’t shoot people simply because you feel threatened. You actually have to be threatened.
When someone is point a weapon which can cause serious bodily harm or death at you then that IS justificiation to use deadly force.
P-mom,Good point! Seems most prolifers have that fishermen’s mentality- throw ‘em back when they’re little, and then catch ‘em and kill ‘em when they get bigger! They aren’t really prolife, they just want to seem more sporting when they kill people. Nathan, f’rinstance, has wanted to blow holes in people for the longest time. Joined the marines, and even they wouldn’t trust him with firearms. So, he sits there with his personal arsenal, just hoping for the chance. One of these days………..
A tragedy – both for the young man and for the pharmacist. I agree with others who feel the pharmacists did what he ahd to do; however I also feel empathy for the young man and his family.
Nathan,”It is the responsiblity of everyone to know and understand the self defense laws where they live.”
Riiiggghht!
Jed,
I forgot you don’t understand the word “responsibility”
Nathan,I’m not the one looking for an excuse to mow down my neighbor.
I was in a fast food restaurant when it was robbed about 15 years ago, I had a large person with a large gun, take me into a headlock with the gun point blank at my head. I have no idea why he needed the money, if the gun was loaded, or why they made the girl who worked there get undressed. I would have done anything for a gun at that time, and have taken the life of both if given the opportunity. They where never caught. You don’t know the feeling of helplessness until someone has direct control over you living or not. The few years of martial arts training did nothing as a second person was there with a gun too. I remember being put into the freezer, my friend, and the girl as well. The manager was taken away to get money out of the safe. The second gunman asked the first one “Are we going to kill them yet?” He kept coming back to the frezzer, looking at us and pointing the gun at us. The girl never worked there again, all her cloths, id and keys where taken as well. I’m sure those robbers had Mom’s/Dad’s family and have probably spent some time in church. We didn’t ask for this, the robber’s did. If they get shot in the process of robbing someone with a gun, it’s ultimately the risk they decided to take.
I’m sorry for the family of this guy, but am glad this guy is no longer walking the streets, maybe ready to do this again to my wife or child. If you like gun control, then move to DC.
Randy Scholfield, I’m so sick and tired of hearing bleeding heart Liberals like you, turning the criminals into VICTIMS.
No longer is their personal responsibility, no longer is their freedom of choice, FATE somehow made this man use drugs and commit armed robbery. It’s not his fault!
BS!
The man points a gun at the store clerk’s head and he defends himself.
When you are looking down the wrong end of a barrel you must assume the gun is loaded.
You can then either 1) kiss your ass goodbye or 2) defend your life if you can.
Bleeding heart Liberals like you, Randy Scholfield, would rather disarm all citizens and make us all helpless from attackers like Alex Mies.
Bleeding heart Liberals like you, Randy Scholfield, would rather have a more sensational news story to report, one that reads:
“Alex Mies Shoots and Kills 3 Store Employees and 5 Customers in Robbery”
There’s nothing GREY about this story and that’s why Bleeding heart Liberals like you, Randy Scholfield, can’t stand to report a story like this.
There’s no way for even the most Liberal Rag of a Newspaper to twist this story into anything other then self-defense of one’s own life when being robbed on your own property.
Though the Eagle certainly tried to give this story a twist – to support your own gun-ban agenda.
Matt,
That is quite a harrowing tale, I am glad that you survived. I am sure that the poor oppressed minorities who carried out the crime were victims of poverty and/or racism. In any event, pay no attention to the gun hating, leftist, egalitarian utopian collectivists, they are a dwindling minority.
JOIN THE GNOSTIC LIBERATION FRONT TODAY!!!
Matt, did that restaurant happen to be Taco Tico by chance?
If so, my cousin was the manager.
Political Mom,
Do you wear your seat belt when in a care?
I am just wondering if you are paranoid about getting into an accident or not?
Political Mom,
Do you have smoke detectors in your home?
I am just curious if you are paranoid about a fire or not?
I think you’re being a bit hard on Scholfield, unless you’re just looking for a fight. Randy acknowledged that the pharmacist was in the right – as he most certainly was – Randy was just being compassionate to the family and sorrowful for a society where this sort of a thing happens. There isn’t anything wrong with that, is there?
Nothing about feeling sorry that this sort of a thing happens detracts from the undeniable fact that – when you pick up a deadly weapon and point it at someone in the commission of a crime – you have to be accountable for your misdeeds. Though the weapon was empty, no one else knew that, and he failed to drop the gun when told. I wonder if Mies knew the gun was unloaded? It doesn’t matter if it was insofar as the legalities and moralities of this situation are concerned. But it does say something about Mies if he knew it was empty – it means that he had no intent to cause grave injury. But that is speculation.
Maybe you all would try to remember the woman who wouldn’t let some members of the community into her sports bar on Hillside somewhere. And what happen to her?… She was shot to death. If that business is still open, I bet they have a gun.Or, in Oklahoma city three people walked to a Walgreens and robbed them of all their narcs, but not after they beat the pharmacist to a bloody pulp.I worked at a retail pharmacy and people yell at you all day long, forgetting that the pharmacy is providing a service to THEM. It thankless, and people hold you up all the time, the pay isn’t that great, so I’m not risking my life. Try being nice to your pharmacy staff the next time you refill a prescription.P-mom that’s great that you found a doctor that works with you. Unlike you, (from what I’ve seen) most people really don’t care about controlling their pain, they just want a fix. And I worked retail for a long time(I’ve seen alot), before working for a hospital.I guess all I’m saying, if someone held a gun up to me, I would probably try shoot first to save myself, and my staff.
I wear my seatbelt Nathan…usually only when I’m going out of town. I don’t really know why, I don’t think it would do a lot of good as I’ve cut quite a few dead people out of their seatbelts off the highway.
Do I have smoke detectors, of course. But I don’t carry them around with me wherever I go.
The “packin Apothecaries.”
Has a nice ring to it. :)
If the gun was already in your face, PharmTech, I would not recommend that you try to find and aim a firearm and shoot. Of course, you would be within your rights if you did. But if the weapon is a few inches from your face, you had better do what you are told.
Kelly,
Not neccisarily. When someone is pointing a gun at you, your life is already threatened.
There is no guaruntee that a man who is pointing a gun at you will not shoot you.
There are many people who do what they are told and still die.
Carr brothers for example.
When someone is threatening my life I will always act in self defense.
Really Kelly…Better do what I’m told… Have experience holding up people?
But I suppose you might be right.
Don’t misunderstand me. If you wish to take a chance, and a chance with the lives of the people around you, resist and fight back even when the criminal has the drop on you. Seriously, even if you are “covered”, under certain circumstances it might still be worth the risk to fight back – if someone else in your group has already been shot or raped for example. If your hands are still free and you are convinced that the criminal does not intend to leave witnesses, then by all means fight back. But it is smarter in some circumstances to cooperate. Always remember that deadly bullets come out of the end of that gun sticking in your face. The bullet will move faster than you can move, unless of course you’re Steven Seagal.
What about if you’ve watched all of Seagal’s movies?
Matt’s answers – The fast food rest where I was at was Barnards just South of 21 & Woodlawn. In fact, there used to be a Braums right within site and a police car was there at Braums when this happened, but the officer never noticed anything. I forget the exact year, but 1987 or 88. It was in October, as one had a mask on and I thought this wasn’t a very good joke when it first went down. The other guy had panty hose on, and both where completely covered. Can’t say if they were minority’s or not, but it wouldn’t have changed my opinion of wanting a gun at the time.
Agreed that the image of us going back to the wild west and all carrying guns isn’t a neat thought, but I’m working towards getting the CCH license myself, and will probably never use a gun against someone in my life. It’s nice knowing that I’m bring a gun to the gun fight though. So for those againts CCH (Concelled Carried Handgun) permits, when you get robbed, what are you bring to the gun fight? Do you think the Carr brothers where and/or are the only ones that will ever commit such a crime?
In case you missed it yesterday —
I think some of you gun enthusiasts would love the movie “Shoot Em Up” now in theaters….. lots of shooting scenes with what appear to be some pretty exotic / hi tech weapons. In a small way it advocates for pro-life (while about 200 bad guys are shot). It even has some political twists that I think were written by the NRA. For the CC crowd there are a couple of scenes that would be instructive:
1. How to shoot 30 bad guys with Uzi’s and other automatic weapons.in an abandoned warehouse, killing em all — while holding a 3 day old baby.
2. Or for extra level of security for yuor house — how you can cover every room in the house with automatic weapons with duct tape and broom handles and rope — controlling them all from you safe room.
3. And the one I think you’d find most invaluable. In the event you forget (god forbid) to pack your heater — how to disable an armed man holding a big gun at your head — with a carrot –
…. see the movie —- take a carrot
No one stopping you, Matt. But a great deal of responsibility goes hand-in-hand with gun ownership and carrying in public. As a sidenote, isn’t it interesting how the murder rate has skyrocketed in Wichita in the very first year of legal CCW? Whatever . . . that debate is over. Carry a gun as long as you obey the law. I don’t care.
I think Kelly’s comment was more practicle than philosophical. If the guy has the drop on you that bad it is a bit late to be looking for a gun. Obviously, if you have an opportunity to take action you should do so. I would ‘prefer’ disarm him but if it takes plugging him that’s the way it is.
Kelly,The shooting rate is crazy!!! I haven’t seen so many people be hospitalized for gunshot wounds.
However, anyother point… everyday people are not the ones doing the shooting. I don’t mean to point a finger, but this law has made it easier for the gangs to carry guns.
PharmTech,
” don’t mean to point a finger, but this law has made it easier for the gangs to carry guns.”
What law?
And how has it made it easier for gangs?
Ken – What about DC. You can’t own a hand gun there, and how many people are shot? More per capita than any other place.
The sky rocket, as you call it, statistic. Is that CCH permit carriers shooting? By the way, it is CCH for the state of KS and not CCW. What other items and statistics may I help you with? http://www.ksag.org/content/page/id/90
As I said before, that debate is over for Kansas. Follow the law, be safe, and go bother someone else.
Easier for the gangs to carry a gun???? You have not gone through the back ground check to get a CCH license. In fact per the KS state figures, very few people actually have the permits to carry.
It’s easy to make a relation that legalizing carrying a gun relates to more shootings, but the National statistics don’t support it. Maybe it’s because there are more gang members? There may be all kinds of reasons for it, not just the one that makes you “feel” your opinion is more accurate.
Matt
What mzkes you think I give a rats ass about ccw / H Dc —- I never said anything about a sky rockets
Why are you addressing those remarks to me —- I haven’t said a damn thing to argue either side of rhw law — what i find amusing is how threatened the pro ccw folks are by the people here against it — none of which has the will or ability to come and take your guns —- whats almost as funny is people admitting to carrying concealed heat — kind of defeats the purpose of concealment ….
/// want a carrot ?
It’s still sad how drug use causes such desperation…there are so many in this country with addiction problems, and it’s so hard to get anyone into treatment if they don’t want to go.
People who are addicted often aren’t in their right mind or capable of making a rational decision..and their loved ones have their hands tied by the laws and can’t do anything except watch the addicted ones destroy their lives.
I wish things would change so that families could intervene more in cases like this (they way they used to), maybe the young man could have recieved the help he needed and he’d still be alive today.
Someone gets there legs shot at close range with a shotgun, they’re not likely to be thinking about shooting, only in the movies.
The problem between addictive people and those without the problem is the people without the problem can’t understand what addiction is.
Alexander Mies probably had an addictive personality. Pain pills are very easy to get addicted to, just ask Rush. My guess is both the pain and the addiction may have gotten to him, and he really had no real plan to rob the pharmacy. No bullets, yet he pulls the gun anyway. If the pharmacist had been a cop, we’d be calling this death by suicide.
My heart goes out to both of them.
As a sidenote, isn’t it interesting how the murder rate has skyrocketed in Wichita in the very first year of legal CCW?Posted by: kelly | September 14, 2007 at 04:48 PM
Kelly, my first question would be, how many of these murders involve CCW permit holders? I would suspect the number is zero, so CCW wouldn’t even enter into the issue. Apples and oranges. If I’m mistaken, tell me so.
Not neccisarily. When someone is pointing a gun at you, your life is already threatened.
There is no guaruntee that a man who is pointing a gun at you will not shoot you.Posted by: Nathan | September 14, 2007 at 04:26 PM
Fun fact:A person with reasonable reflexes can draw and fire a gun before someone pointing a gun can pull the trigger. Not sure I’d want to test that, but there it is.
I admit to being a gun owner, but I don’t consider myself a gun nut. I collect pistols and my tastes run to the really big bore stuff. I don’t hunt, so I don’t kill anything. I like big bore because I consider it a rush to target shoot something that literally makes the ground shake. The only time I “carry” is when I’m traveling. But while I never carry a gun in public, I’m always armed. Being a responsible gun owner, it concerns me that so many people hold such hard opinions against guns, gun ownership, and CCW.
My experience indicates that people who fear guns the most are people who have little or no experience with firearms. Perhaps a couple of trips to the range would be in order so you really know what you’re talking about. There’s nothing evil or mystical about a gun. It’s just a piece of equipment.
From what little I know about drug addiction and treatment, are there enough treatment programs for all the addicted people in Wichita?
I know of one young man who moved into a treatment inpatient program and has been there for 3 years. He keeps having to go back to step 1 of the 12-step program. Somehow, I wonder if this young man is really serious about getting his drug addiction treated or if he has just found his little niche in life on the taxpayers’ dime?
‘There’s nothing evil or mystical about a gun. It’s just a piece of equipment.”
Posted by: XXX
I basically agree. Guns are just a higher level of weapon — advancing from stones, spears, bows & arrows, etc.
But I’d also guess that innocent people, who are dying from a “stray” bullet, or a distant sniper, probably disagree.
XXX,
“My experience indicates that people who fear guns the most are people who have little or no experience with firearms. Perhaps a couple of trips to the range would be in order so you really know what you’re talking about.”
I agree. I have taken a couple of girls to the range who were afraid of guns and when they left they had a much different attitude.
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
I wonder how many people have died from “second hand bullets” ??? I would be surprised if the numbers arent staggering!!
There is no guaruntee that a man who is pointing a gun at you will not shoot you.
Posted by: Nathan | September 14, 2007 at 04:26 PM===================
The converse of this is also quite true… You never know!!
If I were exercising the allowance for a CCW, and I walked into a store, with my gun on my belt… Would the merchant, seeing my gun, have a right to SHOOT ME, as the pharmacist did in this story??
According to what Nathan has said, that would be within the merchant’s right, since the man has a gun, and the merchant has no way of knowing if his life is in danger???
Thats probably a good reason to put up the NO GUN poster on the door???
Good Nite, Good Luck, and God Bless, whatever you conceive God to be!!
Nite all!!
Chas,
“Would the merchant, seeing my gun, have a right to SHOOT ME, as the pharmacist did in this story??”
First of all, the pharmacist shot a man who was pointing a gun at the clerk demanding drugs.
The pharmacist didn’t just shoot someone wearing a pistol on their belt.
Did you even read what happened?
Second, no, the merchant wouldn’t have the right to shoot someone who was merely wearing a pistol.
“According to what Nathan has said, that would be within the merchant’s right, since the man has a gun, and the merchant has no way of knowing if his life is in danger???”
I never said that. And once again, no, the merchant nor would anyone else be justified in shooting someone simply because they seen them wearing a gun.
On top of everything else, IT IS CONCEALED CARRY. You are not going to see someone wearing a gun.
They might print or be slightly visable, but how is that threatening someones life? It is not. You are being absurd.
“Thats probably a good reason to put up the NO GUN poster on the door???”
Figuring that nothing you have posted is based on what actually happened, what I said, what the law says, or how people actually carry concealed…
No it is not a good reason.
I tell you what, I will refuse to give my hard earned federal reserve fiat greenbacks to any business that puts up one of them no gun signs, that is for dang sure!
I have gotten a couple of businesses to take their signs down after talking with the manager or their corporate HQ.
You can have my gun when you pry my cold dead fingers off the trigger….oh,uh, what’s this blog about?
Anyone who calls Taco Tico a restuarant should be restrained.
As usual, the Blog Hogs have taken off on the subject to express and impress everyone with their wit and wisdom. Is it a requirement to have an attention disorder to be one of the Blog Hogs? Anyway, a perwson walked into a business with a gun and paid the ultimate price for his stupidity. End of story. Get over it folks……
Nathan, YES I know what happened… the damned shooting happened baically in my neighborhood… You didnt respond to what I said… You just reacted with your GUN NUT mentality, again….
Go back and look at what I said… and at what YOU said….
And one of the other posters made a good point as well… The CCW law has made it easier for gang bangers to carry guns… You or somebody argued against that…
But… YOU ARE WRONG… I dont think anybody with a CC Permit wears a tag on their clothing, or around their neck, showing their Permit — Therefore, ANYbody carrying COULD in theory have a CC Permit…
AND… what I said before… If that pharmacist sees ANYbody carrying a weapon in his store, what do you think his first thought is going to be??? Unless its a cop??? Hey, I am gonna get held up… So, why wouldnt he be justified to pull out his pistol grip shotgun, and be ready for trouble…
And then, what happens if the CCW guy decides he is being threatened??? So, the pharmacist has his shotgun out and ready to use… Does the CCW guy have a right to SHOOT HIM???
According to your crazy arguments, he DOES… Go read what you are saying, boy!! You are just asking for a can of worms!! In fact, what if that kid that was just killed… what if HE had a CCW permit???
What would THAT do to the justifiable homicide ruling???
i’m not sure what, if anything it would do… but it would make a curious case scenario for you gun nuts!!!
Chad -
I’ve not got involved it this, but your “scenario” is ridiculous.
1) The law has not made it “easier for gang bangers” to carry. Just how does that work? That contention is bizarre beyond words. Those who would carry with malice would carry anyway, law or no.
2) The store owner would not see the gun – it’s CONCEALED carry, remember? Even were he to see it (an inadvertant exposure of the weapon, i.e. a shirt creeps up as a person reaches, or something like that) as long as the weapon remains in a holster, it’s not a threat to a soul, thus no shotgun in response, etc. Should a person draw that weapon and brandish it threateningly, that would be a different matter of course, but that’s got nothing to do with legal concealed carry.
I’ve commented before, Chad. Your fear of firearms is noted, and it’s clear that it’s an irrational fear; you fear what you do not understand. Certainly you have a right not to carry or own a firearm. Just don’t enforce your own fears and prejudices onto others. The legal CC holder is not a threat to you or anyone; the person who carries with malice will carry anyway, and would be a threat with or without a CC law.
Nathan writes: Kelly, my first question would be, how many of these murders involve CCW permit holders?
Well, probably NONE of them, Nathan. However, that doesn’t mean that CC has no effect.
It’s possible that criminals who fear more people with guns now arm themselves more than they used to.
Also, with more guns in circulation, more guns can be stolen. And stolen guns are more likely to be used in crimes.
It’s not the simple cause-to-effect that you “guns are good” people want to make it into . . .
I am a CCW license holder. I made that decision after considerable thought and expense by the way. I look at my decision as one of very seriously making the commitment, in fact a covenant or binding promise, to protect my family, myself and my home. It takes courage to commit to place oneself at risk by resisting a threat. That’s a risk many unfortunately are, for whatever reasons, unable to do. It is much easier to be meek and compliant, to not risk escalating the threat. But that frequently proves not to be the best and safest decision. If everyone would resist injurious or lethal threat those threats would go down significantly. As unfortunate as this shooting was it was wholly the fault of Alexander Mies. The pharmacist did all of us in this community a great service in having the courage to actively resist this crime and physical threat. Not only for himself and his support to his family, but the other employees and and their extended families as well, and all of us who may someday face the same type of threat. I sneer at all those folks who from the comfort and safety of their homes condemn a man who had the courage to act when they know they do not have that same courage, hiding behind criticism to make themselves feel righteous. I now carry a weapon almost as comfortably as I do my wristwatch and if a lethal threat confronts I will take my chance whatever the outcome. While not comfortable by any means, I can live or not with that decision.
If everyone would resist injurious or lethal threat those threats would go down significantly.
Posted by: Mark | September 16, 2007 at 08:24 AM
Agree with you Mark. And studies have shown there IS a deterrent effect in areas where concealed carry is legal, which is now most of the country.
The opposition has argued that crime in KS should have gone down since the 1/1/07 concealed carry law has been in effect.
What some don’t realize is that it takes time to get 1% of the popluation signed up for the required training and to go thru the background checks.
Over a couple of years, 1 to 2% of the population, roughly 30,000 to 60,000 people likely will obtain carry permits.
Assuming a training class size is 30 (which is a little high) that’s 2,000 classes that must be held to get 60,000 people trained/backgrounds checked before they get carry permits.
That’s going to take over a year.
Then, the learning curve effect for the crooks will take some time.
As more incidents such as this Pharmacy robbery occur, even drugged-out and stupid criminals will learn that their intended victims may very well be shooting back.
This is so sad. The guy didn’t ask for money. He only asked for pain killers. That clerk will live with this for the rest of his life. People will reassure him that he had no choice. But that won’t take away the knowledge that he shot an essentially unarmed man. I do not envy him.
JR, the criminal Mies had a gun pointed at the store clerks head!
You want victims to just stand there and take a bullet for your cause?
Essentially unarmed?!? My how you distort the facts JR!
This is all a bunch of bull shit! Don’t any of you have a life or regaurd for anyone? None of you know Alex or know the kind of person he was. He was not the kind of person that would do this and for all of you to go on and on about something you know nothing about is wrong. How long do you think you need to talk about this? You have no regaurd for the family that is going through so much. The media has talked and talked about this for over three weeks now. I am trying to cope and deal with losing my best friend and husband. I am sick of people talking about it and saying what a “scumbag” or “evil person” he was. You are all wrong and have no reason to be talking about him like you him or know what he was going through.
Kristen:
My condolances for your loss. I understand that the Alex you knew was not the criminal he appears to be portrayed as.
However, he chose to do what he did, and he paid the ultimate price for his bad choice. The pharmacist who shot him will also pay a price, I’m sure, in knowing he took a life, even if entirely justified. It is a sad circumstance for all.
——
JR – “shot an essentially unarmed man”??? WHAT are you smoking? A gun pointed at the head of another is most certainly not “essentially unarmed!” Having never taken a life (and hopefully never will), I don’t know what it must be like; I’m sure there will be an impact on him. But he had little choice, and was entirely justified in acting. He has to focus on that fact, and move on with his life.
How about your main man Alan Greenspan saying the war is all about the oil, GMC?
Looks like I’m not the only one who believes that “conspiracy theory” . . .
Kirstin makes a point.
If we treated drug addicts instead of criminalizing them, we might have a lot less drug-related crime.
Don’t know that I’ve ever referred to Greenspan as my “main man,” Capn. I’m always amused at the positions you attribute to me, strawmans you conveniently place to be easily knocked down. And just what does that have to do with this subject?
Secondly, Capn, we do. Come on over, I’ll explain the law to you. It’s SB123, KSA 22-4219(I think, I don’t have the statute book here at home).
Kirsten’s loss is real, and it is a tragedy. But the tragedy of that day happened entirely due to the choices of Mr. Mies.
CapnAmerica,
“It’s possible that criminals who fear more people with guns now arm themselves more than they used to.”
Do you know the difference between possible and probable?
Do you know the difference between what is probable and what actually happens?
Perhaps you have some data, statistics, numbers to show how many concealed carry people have their guns stolen from them?
That would be a good start instead of what could “possibly” happen.
“”Also, with more guns in circulation, more guns can be stolen. And stolen guns are more likely to be used in crimes.”
Once again, have any numbers? The possibility of something happening isn;t enough to negate allowing people to carry concealed.
Almost every state in the country allows concealed carry now and we have yet to see any of these scenarios you guys keep coming up with.
“It’s not the simple cause-to-effect that you “guns are good” people want to make it into . . .”
All we ask for is legitimate debate not based on irrational fear of law abiding citizens having guns.
Chas,
“But… YOU ARE WRONG… I dont think anybody with a CC Permit wears a tag on their clothing, or around their neck, showing their Permit — Therefore, ANYbody carrying COULD in theory have a CC Permit…”
Just stop for at least a few minutes and think Chas.
ANYONE could be carrying a gun without a permit before concealed carry and gang members already did!
You guys act like people who carry CONCEALED have a big purple halo over there head with a flashing neon sign saying: ” I AM CARRYING A GUN”
You are not going to see anyone carrying CONCEALED.
The likelyhood of it happening is very low unless the person is carrying like a complete idiot.
Even then, I still don’t see HOW that makes it easier for gang members to carry a weapon?