A new study showing a fortyfold surge in diagnoses of bipolar disorder in young people between 1994 and 2003 should give doctors and parents pause. The study authors say bipolar illness (previously called manic depression), was underdiagnosed in the past in youths, but the huge increase should raise other concerns: Are doctors getting too comfortable labeling kids bipolar and prescribing meds that could have negative side effects?
“Physicians should bring greater rigor to bear,” said Dr. Glenn Hirsch, one of the authors of the study. “Parents should be aware there has been this big increase in diagnoses. They should ask why and how such a diagnosis is made and what decisions went into it, and they should know more about the medications.”
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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86 Comments
Bi-polar is brutal. It is destroying my life and thus far I have had very little luck turning away from it.
The one thing is, shouldn’t a psychologist diagnose bi-polar disorder rather than a family physician?
You people make me so angry, I hate you! Enough is enough! It’s a beautiful day, I love everyone.
Having done many years of research in this field, I have the following comments. Bipolar disorder, also known as manic-depressive illness, is a brain disorder that causes unusual shifts in a person’s mood, energy, and ability to function. Different from the normal ups and downs that everyone goes through, the symptoms of bipolar disorder are severe. They can result in damaged relationships, poor job or school performance, and even suicide. But there is good news: bipolar disorder means these people are just complete nuts and you just have to deal with it.
“The surge is working”
Physicians like to overdiagnose since most of them get kickbacks from the drug companies. The honest ones will admit it.
There is a large number of undiagnosed bipolar individuals because they are labelled depressed, schizoaffective, or schizophrenic, or not seeking treatment.
Most adult bipolar drugs have not been adequately tested on children so it is dangerous to prescribe them to kids. The side effects for adults can be lethal if the doctor does not carefully (and I mean CAREFULLY) monitor blood levels. Lithium, Depakote, Tergetol, and a few others can become toxic if the blood levels get too high, or they create permanent side effects like TD, tremors, and equally bad things.
It took 35+ years for me to be correctly diagnosed even though I had been to therapists numeruos times before then. I have been on bipolar drugs that have almost killed me because the doctors and psychiatrists were not monitor blood levels. I suffered permanent memory loss, long term and short term. I have problems holding down a job for that reason. I have the shakes, what they call tremors, moderate organic brain damage, and other issues that resulted from them legally overdosing me. I have seen too many fellow mentally ill die too young because of the medicines not being monitored.
If you or a loved one is on any kind of psych drug, check to see if it can cause long term problems or be fatal if not monitored. If your doctor will not do the testing, either go to your regular doctor or fire him/her. I have fired a number of therapists and psychiatrists over the years because their methods were aggravating my condition. Most mentally ill people can fire them, but dont realize it.
Well, the graffitti trolls are up early and making a complete mockery of the WEBlog.
And the editors do nothing.
As usual.
One might consider that if the incidence of bi-polar, depression, and autism are up, and they are, something must be CAUSING that.
Gee, it couldn’t be things like mercury or all kinds of chemicals in our food or water, could it?
Nah, I’m sure that’s not it . . .
It could be, but it could be a mixture of overdiagnosing and that.
Mercury is known for what it causes.
The chemicals are more likely to cause other problems than mental illness, like cancer, kidney diseases. Increased autism has been linked to vaccinations by several reliable
studies that the government
refuses to consider.
I include added chemicals in foods, and many of the synthetic foods available like margarine, etc. Do we really need these additives and synthetic foods without knowing how they affect us?
I always imagine myself getting electrically shocked, not as therapy, but an unplanned event, where the surge burns out all the crap that causes my bi-polar episodes. Just sharing.
I always imagine myself getting electrically shocked, not as therapy, but an unplanned event, where the surge burns out all the crap that causes my bi-polar episodes. Just sharing.
Posted by: Stu Meckle | September 06, 2007 at 08:51 AM
In all seriousness, try yoga.
Krya yoga in particular could help.
For chemical problems, Erin B with Julia Roberts is a good example of the various health problems associated with chemicals. That was based on a true story. There are numerous other books, movies, and documentaries highlighting chemical problems.
Maybe Physicians are using the same screening tests as Tiller in order to sell more pharmaceuticals.
They still use ECT for depressed people. They assure that you probably wont get broken bones and that your short term memory should return. I have many friends that have done ECT, and none have broken bones, most have lost short term memory and rarely gain a lot of it back.
Another thing to watch out for is anti-depressants. Drug companies dont test them on bipolar people and many of them send a bipolar person into a major manic state.
“Well, the graffitti trolls are up early and making a complete mockery of the WEBlog.
And the editors do nothing.
As usual.
Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 06, 2007 at 08:44 AM”
——————–
At least on this thread, Capn, your own post is the only example of trolling to be found. Ironic, huh?
As to the subject at hand; I’ll be the first to admit I know almost nothing about this subject. I think I’ll just read and learn before I say anything I may regret. It may be, however, that the additional diagnosis is BECAUSE there are better drugs to treat; doctors in the past may have been reluctant to diagnose something they could not effectively treat.
GMC70, until recently psychiatrists denied mental illness could occur in children. They were labelled SED, Severely Emotionally Disturbed.
I started having bipolar episodes around puberty, and was attending the mental health center evening program since my dad had died. None of the professionals there had a clue. I was misdiagnosed as an adult because I was not showing any other signs and the dogma at the time was that homeless people were all mentally ill. It took a family doctor to change the diagnosis correctly five years later.
Too many psychiatrists dont listen to their patients, but we know our symptoms better than they do. I was in a drug trial recently. One of the medicines, an anti-seizure one, was causing seizures and the doctor was keeping me on it. I read the literature and demanded to be taken off it because these breakthrough seizures could become permanent the longer I was on the drug. He stopped me cold turkey, which can also create permanent seizures. So now I have to take seizure medicines in addition to the bipolar ones.
Sugar, refined foods, insufficient socialization. Add to that mix not enough exercise and old-fashioned PLAY.
Bipolar Affective Disorder is caused by a sodium shift on the cellular level..it is a genetically predisposed condition and a child has a 40% chance of having it if one of his parents have it. It’s not caused by a bad environment, bad parenting, or poor diet. I think it is often misdiagnosed and used as an excuse for children who are reacting to a bad environment, poor parenting, or poor diet.Too many parents want to blame forces outside their control for their kid’s behavior problems instead of looking in the mirror at what THEY need to change. It’s so much easier to blame a mental illness and try to solve the problems by drugging the child.That being said, it is one of the most common mental illnesses next to depression, and it can be controlled in most cases with the right medications to balance out the chemical imbalance. I know several very successful and functioning people who suffer with BAD, they have to be aware of their symptoms, seek help when necessary, and stay on medication in order to have a full and productive life. It doesn’t have to be a disabling illness.
sodium – interesting. I wonder how much all that salt we use has to do with it. Mary?
Mary – It doesn’t have to be a disabling illness, but it is. Since you know people who have BAD and have a full and productive life, you must know a WHOLE lot with BAD who don’t have a full and productive life. Too many times they will stop taking their medication, for so many reasons. Either they do not like the side effects, or they think they are better and don’t need the medication anymore. It’s a sad fact that it is exceedingly difficult to get people with a chronic condition to take medication for the rest of their life, and people with mental illness seem to be the worst group about taking their medication.
Mary – another sodium question: if I sweat a lot I eliminate sodium. Does that have an impact? Also, I understand that exercise can increase endorphin levels. Another impact?
Perhaps MPS can educate us on this Ben.
I do recall vaguely from biochemistry that transport mechanisms are greatly affected by diet.
Diuretics such as coffee and alcohol tend to eliminate the need balance of potassium which is necessary for active transport.
Magnesium is like the keystone element necessary to keep K and NA regulated in our system.
What it boils down to for adults is a healthy diet of fruits and vegetables; leafy greens, bananas, etc.
Genetic wise – I have no clue what would cause the transport mechanism to stop working to regulate flow across the cell membrane.
Being a 72 year old GreatGrandma who has taken care of children with ADD,ADHD, and possibly bi-polar I am curious about how many of these kids parents have used illegal drugs in the past. Maybe even experimently trying them is enough to change something in them to produce children with these troubles.
Eat a banana and drink some water after you sweat a lot Ben, it works wonders. I did this when I ran a lot, no muscle cramps and I recovered much more quickly.
Half a banana will do.
I wonder how many DR’s are just “pushers” for drug companies and its not really a huge increase in new Bipolar diagnoses but just Dr’s who what their cut/kickback of drug profits.
Considering that one of the most common drugs for treating bi-polar disease is Lithium, and it is also one of the absolute cheapest drugs, I doubt that many doctors get a kickback for prescribing the medicine.
I would tend to think that there is possibly an environmental cause for more cases combined with a greater understanding of the nature of the disease, resulting in more diagnoses.
TDT, the side effects can exceed the illness. In the drug study, my side effects were worse than me without any medicine.
There are bipolar people that do not take medicine and have learned to live with it.
The main reasons people stop are fairly simple: Weight gain (the part of the brain that tells your stomach is full gets turned off leading to the weight gain), loss of sex drive or sexual inability, and fatigue/exhaustion (drugged out zombie state). Very few anti-manic drugs dont cause all three.
Yes, some do stop for the reasons you mention, but from talking with many bipolars, the three above are the most common.
Many bipolars, possibly most, can function fairly well without medicine, even in a highly manic state. I dont recommend it, but there have been many years where I could not afford the medicine and therapy and had to learn to cope with the illness without them. It was difficult, but not impossible. Compared to the years I was on the wrong medicine, I actually performed better without medicine.
Many American psychiatrists like to start patients with way too high a dosage, aggravating any side effects. Many foreign psychiatrists prefer to start on the lower doses and then increase if needed. You see less severe side effects and greater med compliance that way.
In my drug study, I was sleeping between 4 and 12 hours a day, and nonfunctional for most of the time I was awake. I had to argue with the doctor for several weeks before he took me off the medicine. He is trying to encourage to do a similar drug study using one of the same drugs, the one that drugged me out, caused bloody constipation regularly, and he can’t figure out why I am not signing up. Would you?
Medicines should alleviate, not aggravate. What works for one person may cause the opposite effect in others.
Thankfully, I was able to see my regular doctor and get put on a medicine that is helping.
Try getting a job when your job history is as spotty as many of ours are. Getting disability takes an average of 4 years for mentally ill people because it is not easy for Social Security to see the disability, unlike a blind person or someone in a wheelchair. How are we supposed to live without money, about 25-30% of the homeless are mentally ill, and part of that is because we cannot afford housing since we have no income, or we get GA which will not cover utilities, much less rent.
I used to work for COMCARE, and it was sad to see how my fellow mentally ill were treated by the system. That wanted us to stay disabled so they could keep seeing us and get their funding. Many of the workers discouraged schooling or work. Hopelessness was common. Mentally ill have the highest potential for work, but are one of the lowest disabled groups when it comes to working.
I have been encouraged to continue my fight for disability (over 3 years now) even though it will be at least another year before the appeal is considered and another six months after before any money comes in. By that time, I will be homeless, divorced, and unable to work for even longer. I am looking for a part time job even though it will stop me from getting disability, but how else am I going to live?
I thought I was going bonkers for awhile Bipolar.
It turned out I had diabetes. I was experiencing mood swings and depression, couldn’t figure out why.
An old country Doc did some blood sugar checks and found out I was regularly going above 150 on my tests. (about 40 too high on average)
Anyway, I feel much better these days with proper diet and medication.
Occasionally, my blood sugar will drop down to 50-60 and I feel spaced out. A quick drink of juice or eating an orange or a glucose tablet gets me back to normal quickly.
I can tell if my blood sugar is high as I get grumpy and less talkative – also more prone to naps. :)
Probaby caused by the corresponding increase in Chinese imports!
Bi polar your situation sounds bad, but you sound like a smart person maybe you should become an advocate contact goverment officals state reps, gov, US senators, Reps, expose holes in coverage to the media, expose corrupt charities, and gov agencies, contact Homeless advocates so on
Kansas – absolutely right about bananas – both for me and for the little monkeys!
My former brother-in-law had hypoglycemia and it expressed itself as bipolar until they got it straightened out.
It was difficult to see the bipolar phenotype in children because they did not do things like have multiple spouses/partners, max out credit cards, etc. Barbara Weller, MD of the University of Washington (in St. Louis, MO) published several important papers on the childhoom manifestation of mania symptoms. Very seldom to childhood versions of the disorder look exactly like the adulthood disorder. It is often co-morbid with ADHD – I suspect in the past that many kids who had pediatric bipolar disorder were mistakenly diagnosed with ADHD.
If you think your kid has a bipolar spectrum disorder, it is best to take them to a board certified child psychiatrist. There are not many of them in Kansas. The current head of the KU school of Medicine – Dept of Psychiatry is a child psychiatrist. There are a few others in Wichita.
Another advocate of recognizing childhood bipolar illness, Elizabeth Weller, MD of Penn, also warns that we don’t know the long term effect of the medications these children are getting. So, getting an accurate diagnosis and looking at known risks/benefits are especially good ideas.
BTW, is a hypothesis that since mania responds to anti-convulsants (anti-seizure meds) that it may be a type of epilepsy.
The best book on adult bipolar I’ve read is Kay Redfield Jamison’s _An unquiet mind_ – it is a first person account of her trials with bipolar illness. She liked her mania and it was not until she nearly killed herself in a suicide attempt before she got serious about managing her illness. Today she is a professor in the medical school at Johns Hopkins University.
Supposedly due to community sample surveys, the prevalence of childhood bipolar disorder is about 1% of the children. The extent to which pharmaceutical companies are trying to get their products approved for children would make one think that they believe the prevalence is much higher than 1%. But it also could be that they know patients diagnosed with the disorder will take their medications for a long time – which would also make them attractive financially.
One last thing, I know several physicians of differing specialties and I do not know any of them to take cash “kick-backs” from pharmacy companies. There are always those drug reps handing out goodies, but there are only so many coffee cups and pens that you need. I was at a conference not long ago and the pizza was purchased by some drug rep. And there may be some influence on prescribing habits based on the pharmacy company generosity, but I am unaware of any “quid pro quo” arrangements between doctors and drug companies. I think this is an urban myth.
Tom,
I have, but the state and feds are not that interested. They talk parity in insurance when equality is needed. The feds have made it a bit better for federal insurance, but they still have a ways to go.
I also am an advocate of several local agencies, but they seem more concerned about increasing their budgets and keeping the mentally ill down. If I had the money, I would start my own nonprofit with the goal of getting people jobs and education and in the least restrictive environments that they could obtain and maintain.
According to stats, 1 in 4 people will be affected by mental illness, either personally or as a family member or friend.
Our biggest fight is the discrimination that the “experts” call stigma. If we were another disability group, the experts would call it discrimination. Too many mentally ill are hiding in the closet because that discrimination is still that strong. I have come out of that closet and it has cost me jobs, so-called friends, and other things. I will continue the fight, but we need help. If you know someone that is mentally ill hiding in the closet, encourage them to come out and be counted.
I have an aunt, and I was 35 before my mother told me she was schizophrenic. Families that should support us often don’t want to discuss the issue. If you avoid it, the issue is not real for them. One of my friends as soon as she starts talking about mental illness, her family tries to change the subject or ignores her because they do not want to deal with mental illness.
I know several people that died after complaining of non-mental illness issues, like chest pain. Their doctors said it was all in their head. Turns out it was undiagnosed heart problems that in a non-mentally ill person would have been checked out. My doctor is good about checking out stuff if I have a complaint. It may be the illness, but I have a family history of hereditary heart disease and a mild heart murmur.
Steven, the quid pro quo happens, many doctors do not go for it, but some do. It is not always in the form of cash, but there are other ways to reward doctors than write scripts.
—BTW, is a hypothesis that since mania responds to anti-convulsants (anti-seizure meds) that it may be a type of epilepsy.—
I have wondered about that myself. Most of the current new drugs used are anti-convulsants and they tend to work pretty well. Lithium is still used frequently, but many doctors are shying away because toxicity is an issue. I have not seen much research on the issue, and I hope someone is doing the research. The more they learn, the better the treatments and drugs can be improved or developed.
There are two groups of bipolar people. One is like the doctor you mentioned. They enjoy the manic phase, it is like a natural high. You feel invincible, need little sleep, can have grandiose ideas, and otherwise be superman/woman. At moderate mania, you become your boss’s best employee as your productivity is way above normal. This group is less like to stay med compliant since the high is a rush for them. They are also more likely to abuse drugs and alcohol to create a high when they are not naturally high.
The other group includes me. I dislike being manic. We realize it screws up our lives, and that there is a crash and burn stage. The more manic we are, the bigger the crash and burn. I am a rapid cycler and that may be why I dislike the manic side. I can rapid cycle dozens of times a day, and that is hard on a person.
I have not had a spending spree in a while, but it can cause major problems. My friend wound up $28,000 in debt after a spending spree.
I have come to accept that it is a part of me, and at times, it will affect my life, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. I am in college with only a few classes to go, and hope to graduate next Spring. I started back in ‘79, but bipolar and life got in the way a lot of that time.
it’s not just bipolar being more diagnosed, it’s ALL of the neurological disorders. And there is a biological basis for them, even if it is unknown yet.
You seriously cannot fake these symptoms. Blaming the parents isn’t doing any good, in many cases it’s making it WORSE.
do you have any idea how many people in my autism group immediately denied there was a problem, and denied medications because they thought THEY were the problem, they thought THEY could fix it if only they did …
I can tell you this. If you ever had a child or you yourself had a problem with this or a like illness, the issue is no longer up for debate once the right medication is prescribed and you get the WOW effect. Parents finally lose their guilt.
“Steven, the quid pro quo happens, many doctors do not go for it, but some do. It is not always in the form of cash, but there are other ways to reward doctors than write scripts.”
There is a reason why the Fuller Brush man hands you a gift before making a pitch to you. It is known and has been demonstrated in research the preceding strategies work in regard to influencing people. Though some would like to deny it, doctors are people, like anybody else.
But, if a doctor is taking cash kick backs or anything else of significant cash value, that would be unethical and maybe illegal. If you know doctors doing this, you should turn them in to the Kansas board of healing arts – if you live in Kansas.
In England, any MD publishing an article in the British Medical Journal has to declare any conflict of interest. There was a study done that showed those doctors being paid by pharmaceutical companies found greater efficacy for the company’s products than those financially supported by somewhere that was not affiliated with the company. It is doubtful to me that this effect was conscious on the part of the doctors/researchers. Clearly, doctors can be influenced like other human beings. [I'll see if I can locate this study, it was quite interesting].
But – I am not aware of any doctors who bill patient insurances and take money (or things of significant value) from pharmaceutical companies to prescribe only certain drugs. This would be a clear conflict of interest and again if you know of it, you should turn them in.
GMC–
It’s not trolling to complain about trolls.
Also there are at least two graffitti troll posts above mine.
The fact that we leftists complain about the trolling and the tighty-righties complain about our complaining is all the proof one needs of who’s doing most of the trolling . . .
OK -
Define “graffitti troll post,” because it appears to me, Capn, that you generally define “troll” as “someone who disagrees with me.”
On the disliking mania, for Kay Redfield Jamison, her mania while initially pleasant, got to be an inconvenience pretty quickly. She tells stories about when she could tell a mania stage was coming on when she bought up every animal in pet stores and took them home. Such behaviors would have pretty obvious disadvantages. She also eventually got psychotic during her mania episodes and that too, was a factor in getting her to seek and maintain treatment.
Redfield-Jamison calls herself a “Lithium reponder” – meaning that drug works for her, but she has had problems with toxicity, too. One time when mountain climbing she had to be carried down by other people – I am assuming there was some drug/exertion interaction.
On rapid cycling, pediatric bipolar cases are more likely to be rapid cyclers, which is relatively rarer among adult cases.
I think this has been a good thread – in spite of – any trolling. That can happen around here, too.
Sure, GMC.
A graffitti troll is someone who never posts under the same nic twice, so it’s like meaningless graffitti sprayed on a wall.
Sam I am and I’m Okay are good examples.
A troll is not someone who disagrees with me. Hank Price almost always disagrees with me and I with him, but he is not a troll, because he doesn’t nic-switch and disrupt.
A troll is someone who posts with the intention of nic-switching, nic-stealing, or generally disrupting.
This is a good example of trolling:
You people make me so angry, I hate you! Enough is enough! It’s a beautiful day, I love everyone.
Posted by: I’m OK your Ok
It’s flame-bait intended to irritate. It has no content worthy of consideration or response. It’s just a personal attack to provoke personal attacks.
Instead of encouraging debate, it encourages people to log-off and never come back.
That’s trolling.
Its already been debunked by most authorities. It is simply over diagnosis as usual. Same scam as big increases in Autism, Asthma etc. People try to blame smoking etc for Asthma. Smoking might AGGRAVATE it but it does not CAUSE it. There is a difference.
Doctors get drug money and put everyone on meds. Some kid acts up and instead of getting their ass beat like they should they now get a dose, and are now either suddenly autistic or bipolar.
Makes mommy feel better, and gives them the newest little pill.
Sort of a new version of Jefferson Airplane’s, White Rabbit.
“Its already been debunked by most authorities.”
Please provide some evidence of this assertion. Thank you in advance.
See, it’s people like that who deserve to have kids like ours.
P_mom,You’re speaking of the “beat their asses like they should be” crowd?
Has anybody ever looked at the two words MENTAL DISORDER. Meaning the mind is not in order, it doesn’t mean, to be diagnosed with a mental illness and keep that label for life. The only thing that can fix someones mind is counseling and of course that own persons mind. Being diagnosed as meantally f’d up, make people even more f’d up mentally, medicine doesn’t fix the disorder, but treats the symptoms while the disorder worsens. I hate psychiatric medicine, it only makes peoples problem worse. I think people need to try and eat a healthy diet before they try and depend on man made chemical’s to fix their mental problems. Most people are hypochondriacs, and if you think you have a problem, your going to go to a psychiatrist expecting a pill for a solution. healthy food, and exercise, and talking to people is the best medicine.
Wow, what a surprising turn of events. We treat our children like they are pieces of property rather an individuals. We warehouse them in centers where the average teacher to student ratio is 24 or 27 to one. We fill up their days and evenings with “worthwhile activities” or ignore them. We give them things they don’t need while withholding the things they are desperate for. We encourage them to grow up but treat them like they are 2 years old. We expose them to violence and sex but expect them to remain innocent and naive.
A forty fold increase, I’m surprised it’s not more. Contrary to conventional wisdom, there have been dis-functional families since Adam and Eve (remember Cain and Able). The best shot a child has is to grow up in a “stable” home. One with a mother and a father, some sibblings, in a house (small, medium or large doesn’t seem to matter). Children need to know they are wanted, excepted and cared for.
Homes, real homes, families, real families can’t make problems go away but they can help make the fall out from them easier to handle. Adults need to stop focusing on themselves and need to start taking responsibility for the beings we brought into this world. Either that or they need to wander down to the local vet and get fixed.
Dogs and cats are sometimes better parents than people.
Dogs and cats are sometimes better parents than people.
Posted by: seanmahair | September 06, 2007 at 04:17 PM
Interesting observation, Sean, since in neither species does the “father” stick around once he has mated repeatedly with the female.
Also, tom cats are notorious for killing the kittens sired by other males and then forcibly mating with the female.
I’m guessing that rape and infanticide aren’t your idea of good parenting, but then, who knows with you right-wingers . . .
It is hard to know where even to begin responding to some posts here.
1) Mental illness is a real thing. No amount of good diet, good decisions, good counselling is going to completely change some disorders. The preceding things can be helpful to anybody, but not sufficient in helping the more serious forms of mental illnesses.
2) A good social support system is always a helpful thing. But this does not mean that it is has to be an intact nuclear family. The best of social systems, while helpful, are also insufficient in ameliorating the more serious forms of mental illness.
Capn still doesn’t have the cajones to bet me the $5000.00 that I’m not the one trolling.
He’s definitely all mouth, no balls.
Heh, Kansas, since your bet is based on something unprovable, it’s brains not balls that keeps me from taking it.
Besides, I haven’t accused you of trolling for quite awhile, unlike you who accused me as recently as this morning.
Pick a fight with somebody your own size. Hervé Villechaize comes to mind . . . “de plane! de plane!”
Thanks for the reality view, Steven.
These blame-the-victim types think that schizophrenics just didn’t eat their carrots . . .
Capn:
“A troll is not someone who disagrees with me.”
So you say; I’ve seen little evidence of that. It appears that you accuse every new nic that disagrees with you as a troll, as well as several running annoyances. So I’d say my definition fits pretty well. And gosh, how dare new people join in!
I’ll offer the following as a public service announcement for new posters on WEBlog:All you new writers who are considering joining in, you’d better adopt the proper positions; otherwise you’re a troll. Capn says so.
Get your “your mamma” or “f-you” hot key ready; you’ll need it.
Do not let your faith inform your views, at least unless it’s an acceptable faith, or at least a hidden one. Or unless you worship at the church of radical environmentalism.
Tell ya what: just go to DailyKos or Democratic Underground, learn the proper talking points, and you’ll fit in with Capn just fine.
Otherwise, get your flame hats ready. Dissent isn’t tolerated well here.
Wow, GMC.
I’ll leave it to the readers to determine who had the more cogent argument.
When you re-read what you posted tomorrow when you’re sober, you’re really going to regret it.
I’m embarrassed for you, man.
“All you new writers who are considering joining in, you’d better adopt the proper positions; otherwise you’re a troll. Capn says so.”
I hate to see what was a good thread hijacked by this distraction, but Capn did give some specific examples of what he was trying to define as trolling. Those examples seemed to be difficult to refute and maybe that is why you did not try.
My point again, if we get rid all people here who, at times, try to annoy other people, there won’t be very many of us left. Secondarily, as is shown here often, the presence of said trolls doesn’t always deter good discussions here.
Mental illness shouldn’t even be categorized as mental anymore. It’s physical, just as real as Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, MD and the others.
I wonder how anyone can look at a child with autism and think that was just bad parenting. Or schizophrenia.
But there are some on this board who have the redneck’s manual for medical diagnostics think you can just beat the disabled into the proper behavior. Brilliant! Why didn’t the rest of us just think of that!
Good discussion, guys. My experience has mostly been in the hospitals caring for those with BAD who are in crisis. I also worked with four doctors who were bipolar (one since has died) but they were very instrumental in helping staff understand the nature of the illness. It is hell for some and others seem to deal with it and do OK. Just like any disease, it can vary depending on the individual case. It has nothing to do with diet, it’s about how well the cells absorb and metabolise sodium, when that process is impaired, it results in severe mood swings. It can be devastating to lives and relationships, but if it’s well controlled with medication, a person can lead a relatively normal life. There really is no other treatment. The chemical imbalance on the cellular level has to be corrected. Therapy can’t do that.Some of the most creative and successful people happen to be bipolar.
“Mental” simply means the mind…it’s not the label we refer to it by that needs to change, but they way we look at it. The mind can get sick, just like the heart, kidney, or lungs. The problem is that when the mind gets sick, the symptoms are behavioral, and people are uncomfortable with that and don’t know how to respond to it.People who think you can “beat” it out of someone or just tell them to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps” are ignorant and need educating.
Thanks Mary. I have a friend who suffers from depression. The frustrating thing is that he is a brilliant person when he is not ‘down’ but when he is ‘down’ he simply cannot function. Again, I think it is a similar kind of chemical imbalance you mention got bipolar. However, I also seem to think that diet can also impact its severity.
However, I will definitely defer to those who clearly know more about the subject than I do.
A very close family member is dealing with this. For years we watched as the manic episodes would cause a shopping trip with no limits or something else totally out of character only to fall to the depths and not be able to leave the house for days. As it got worse days when he was driven to walk for hours a day and we watched the weight fall off literally. Hearing voices telling him what to do. Obsessed with the food he ate and would only eat the same foods and in a specific order. A very stressful event in his life finally pushed him over the edge and made us see he needed help.
He is now doing great. On medication daily. While he sometimes complains about the side effects of some of the meds he would never dream of not taking the medication because he is afraid of where he was before getting help.
He didn’t want others to know what was wrong because he was shamed by it. Thank you Mary for letting others who might not be aware of it that it is just an illness like any other. The symptoms are very visible unlike high blood pressure or and ulcer but just as real.
Depression is also genetically pre-disposed and can be caused by a chemical imabalance. It happens when certain brain receptors are blocked to the uptake of seratonin. Some depression is normal, for instance if someone suffers a devastating loss, then it’s a natural part of the grieving process. A therapist told me once that the differnce between “normal” depression in a grief cycle and major, disabling depression is that the person with the “normal” depression will have some relief and feel better after they cry, whereas someone with major depression won’t find any relief at all. The “normal” depression one feels after a loss should subside within a year. If it lasts longer, then it’s time to seek help. Depending on the cause, depression can be treated with therapy/and or meds. The best treatment usually is the combination of both.I know that depression runs in my family and I have struggled with it from time to time. I take an antidepressant and it’s been a life saver for me.
Interesting viewpoint on trolls. I would think anyone who uses the internet as a medium to communicate learns fairly quickly what a “troll” is. As one who follows these WE blogs almost daily and don’t post much, i think it’s apparent to all who spend any time in the blog, those that are here to conflict, do so. To me, it’s just a matter of personal recognition that they seek, so, the rest who complain about them, to me anyways, become nothing more then enablers giving them the attention they so desperately seek.
ksgrm, I’m glad to hear that your family member is doing well. He’s lucky that he has a supportive family..many people with severe and persistant mental illness have few social supports because their family often gets burned out with the stress of trying to help them.Anyone can have a mental illness, for a variety of reasons. It would be great if society would quit stigmatizing people with mental illnesses, then maybe more would seek help when they need it.
Mary C.:”Some of the most creative and successful people happen to be bipolar.”
This is definitely true. Kay Redfield Jamison did an article for Scientific American looking at historical figures who were likely bipolar. Our culture has benefited greatly from people with this diangosis, while these individuals have personally suffered to a great extent.
P_mom:”Mental illness shouldn’t even be categorized as mental anymore. It’s physical, just as real as Parkinsons, Alzheimer’s, MD and the others.”
This would seem to be the accepted position in terms of major mental illness. I am going to be dating myself here, but I remember people talking about “functional” (developed for poorly understood psychological reasons) and “organic” (due to brain injury, dementia, or some other physical process) illnesses. Actually, for the major mental illnesses, they all have organic – brain chemistry – etiologies. There are “problems in living” diagnoses where this would not be true, that we know of, anyway.
I was at the downtown library today and saw the man with the long white beard that was pictured in a recent edition of the Eagle. I wanted to talk with him and ask him how he was doing but sometimes it frightens them if you approach. I don’t understand the many complaints I hear about the many homeless that are at the library everyday. They have never bothered anyone when I have been there don’t approach unless you approach them. People just seem to fear that which they can’t understand.
Do kids need these medications? I really don’t know but would never say no. Just hope that a good system is in place to identify them and good followup.
Mary C:”Depression is also genetically pre-disposed and can be caused by a chemical imabalance. It happens when certain brain receptors are blocked to the uptake of seratonin.”
This may not be correct, but my understanding was that the re-uptake process in depressed brains works too well. Thus the name SSRI (selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor). This will be anthromorphizing (love that word, which means giving human-like needs/motivations where they are not appropriate) a bit, but it is like the brain thinks, “oh, I need this serotonin, so I am going to grab up all that I can after a synaptic episode” – and it does then re-uptake it. It would be better for the brain to allow the serotonin to remain at the synaptic juncture after the synapse to facilitate more efficient inter-cellular communication. SSRIs correct this over-correction, if you will.
“Wow, GMC.
I’ll leave it to the readers to determine who had the more cogent argument.”
Tell ya what, Capn. Take a week off, come back without the rose-colored glasses. Then tell me I haven’t hit it about right.
And yes, apologies to others. I didn’t want to try to hijack a thread, and it’s clear I didn’t. I’ve learned a lot reading this very good thread.
Thanks to all.
Steven you seem to know alot about the med side. We are more knowledgeable than we used to me. Our family member also reacted to the initial drugs he was given in exactly the opposite way others would. Valium sent him into his worse manic state. Respidil put him in another world. Lexapro and mirtazapine are working for him now but he lives in fear that he will become used to them and they will no longer be effective. Like he will build up resistance to them. If an adult who can tell you how he feels thinks this way how must a child who can’t express themselves as well feel?
Risperdal.
Yes grm, you can build resistance to the meds, and then you find something else that works. I can tell you how I know if it’s not working in my son….his behavior goes worse.
So we have a rotation on and off the risperdal now. I realize that’s not possible with bipolar, but it works well for us.
I do not envy you that task, PMom!
What do you rotate it with. Our concern is that he reacts differently to meds than most people.
“If an adult who can tell you how he feels thinks this way, [then] how must a child who can’t express themselves as well feel?”
Posted by: ksgrm
That is a very excellent question, grm. I rely on two very good child psychiatrists that I work with to help me out with the same type of question.
Parents can be very helpful sources of information. Sometimes one of the parents will have bipolar illness, and many of those folks feel deep guilt about passing on their problems to their offspring.
I can say with confidence, that all things being equal, I would rather inherit bipolar illness than about any of the other major psychiatric illnesses (with the possible exception of Major Depression) because the treatment options are pretty good now and I hope & pray they will get better.
You have to play the medication roulette till you find what works.
I know it sucks. It’s worse than sucky, it’s hell. But you just have to do it.
You find this kind of thing with seizure meds, and also pain control
P_mom,
I have really appreciated your contributions to this thread. I have the upmost respect for you, if I haven’t said it before.
Time to get that nursing degree. I will look for lawyers, if you want me to.
is it upmost or utmost??? Sorry, it is late, you know.
Yes, Websters says it it “utmost”.
I agree with Steven davis – and will also say kudos to Mary C and to ksgrm. we may resume our fighting elsewhere but not here. Take care all …
To Steven’s clarification I think he is largely correct – but only partly. It’s not the receptors but the ’scavengers’ that are too active. That leads to a deficit of serotonin.
I know I am mixing my nerve chemicals here but I wonder if in utero exposure to cholinesterase inhibitors might then lead to a too-active system in adaptive response? Such exposure is far too common these days.
Ben,
You’re probably right, but that last post flew right over my dumb head.
I have a friend who has a PhD in biochemistry and an MD in psychiatry. He understands the action of the drugs that he prescribes in a fundamentally different (and more comprehensive way) than his colleagues do.
He is also an evangelical christian, so he and I have a lot of very interesting discussions.
He is a very wonderful man.
“He is a very wonderful man.”Posted by: Steven Davis
Even when he is wrong.
Aw, gee Steven. Thanks for the vote of confidence.
You know, I’ve been thinking about it. A lot lately.
A part of me says to run far and fast from that. I have a million and one excuses why I can’t, won’t, shouldn’t.
The other side says I’ll never be truly satisfied till I retrieve what is rightfully mine.
Ben, do you mean ACE inhibiters? I think those are quite rarely used anymore.
Thanks for the clarification Steve. I always thought it was the LACK of seratonin and norepinephrine that caused the problem. What you say makes more sense.Have you heard of any new medications for Bipolar? I heard something new is coming out..all I see prescribed is Lithium and Depakote right now.
He’s right Pmom…what do you have to lose by trying? We should all strive to reach our full potential. There is a freedom in having a career that is well paid, it gives you lots more choices in life.
The child psychiatrists I know use Seroquel and Abilify with the kid cases; they will use anti-convulsants, but not as often as one sees with adult cases.
The adult shrinks use Depakote almost exclusively – don’t see Lithium used much.
p-mom – the cholinesterase inhibitors I am referring to are those in nerve gas and similar chemicals – PESTICIDES. With our all-to-often indiscriminate use of bug sprays I wonder about exposure – particularly in utero.
I think that a pediatric psychiatrist needs to be the one to diagnose children.
My family doctor misdiagnosed my daughter several times.
This is a very hard thing to live with let alone being misdiagnosed and not getting the right help.