Opinion polls show that Americans trust Democrats more than Republicans on health care. Nonetheless, former White House aide Karl Rove thinks that health care can be a winning issue for Republican candidates, if they offer a bold plan. “Conservatives must put forward reforms aimed at putting the patient in charge,” he wrote in the Wall Street Journal. “Increasing competition will ensure greater access, lower costs and more innovation.”
Rove’s policy recommendations include giving every worker a tax deduction for health-insurance premiums, making it easier to use tax-free medical savings accounts, and putting more information about the cost and quality of medical care in the hands of patients.
“In short,” Rove wrote, “the best health reform proposals will be those that recognize and build on the virtues of our market-based medical system.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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124 Comments
Another way to put this:
Democrats can lose on health care.
There is absolutely NO way that a “single-payer” plan can be established without enfuriating a large segment of the working population. Those people would end up with LESS coverage than they have now.
When a local aircraft company proposes even modest changes in health insurance plans, the Union types go nuts.
Just wait until a “one size fits all” program is shoved down everyones throat!
enrageinfuriateits late
Bush and the Repubs should listen to Rove. But all Bush can think anddo is veto the extension of the children’s health insurance funding bill. Of course, he and Laura and the girls won’t have to go without taxpayer-funded medical insurance, so no skin off their noses. This bill would also restore emergency rooms to being used by people with traumatic injuries or events, and not as a safety valve to provide medical care for out-of-control conditions that could have been managed cheaply ans effectively at an earlier stage but for the lack of medical insurance, and a pediatrician or family doc.
I forgot to add that this is the same program that Gov. Sebelius has tried to expand in Kansas to cover all children under 6, but the Republicans have stymied that plan. Landwehr and the Gang need a powerful dose of reality next election day.
If Hillary Rodham dumps her universal health care plan in the trash and stops pandering to the extreme kook limp-wrist leftist and would just be honest for once in her life, I would actually think about voting for her.
Remember! The government created the HMO’s that dominate the health care coverage we seem to have problems with. But people want that extended and mandated to everybody?
For you Butters of the left who think that government will solve all the problems and make things better, and to be fair, the capitalist who believe the markets will, there is a truism that rings true for any business and especially government services.
And that is: There are three results! Good, Fast, and Cheap! Pick two, because there is nothing in any services that is all three! Government or Private!
You can be Good and Fast, but you won’t be Cheap!
You can be Fast and Cheap, but you won’t be Good.
You can be Good and Cheap, but you won’t be Fast.
We need to start to move towards National Health such as Canada, France and the UK have but we need to learn from them and design our own program as opposed to just copying somebody elses. For example most of their programs are “free”. I don’t think it should be “free” except for preventive care such as a yearly physical, mommograms and that type of stuff. Otherwise if you go to the doctor there should be a copay and a copay for prescription drugs. And if you are more than 20% overweight or you smoke, your co pays should be higher. If you already have medical insurance and you are happy with it, keep it. But I think in time that most people will opt for the National plan because the cost of private insurance is rising at such a pace that neither employers or employees are going to be able to afford it much longer.
“”"Remember! The government created the HMO’s that dominate the health care coverage we seem to have problems with. But people want that extended and mandated to everybody?”"”
The only problem with the HMO model is that it is for profit and it makes decisions on a profit and loss basis vs patient care and outcome. People scream about HMOs denying them care and often they are denied care because of cost and not because of the possibility of a productive life. We will have rationing of medical care no matter what kind of system we have if it is to remain affordable. That is just a fact. The question is do we want to ration on the basis of profit or the basis of medical need. For example- you have 2 people with congestive heart failure that are going to die without a transplant. Canadidate A is a 57 year old male prisoner that smokes a pack a day and is overweight. Candidate B is a 48 year old female clerk that does not smoke and is only slightly overweight. Right now, under the American system of profit, the prisoner will get the new heart because he is “insured” by the state of Kansas while the female clerk who has never smoked and never committed a crime will be left to die because her insurance does not cover transplants. This would not happen in Canada, the UK or any other indutrialized nation. In fact it would not even happen in Cuba or Jamaica. Medical care should be rationed but the decisions should be made on a medical basis and not a profit basis.
“Conservatives must put forward reforms aimed at putting the patient in charge”
This is just double-speak for high deductible and only using doctors within the “system”. I suppose that’s fine for younger people, but if you’re over 50….
I heard a person currently employed by a big insurance company say, “Deny the claim twice; if the insured is still bothering you THEN look at it.”
Maybe it was a joke. But did you ever notice how many railroad cars, shopping centers, office buildings… are owned by insurance companies? Their holdings seem to be large and diverse; their pockets full.
Kids… Listen… Please… Every “socialized” or government operated health care system in the industrialized world, ie. France, Canada, United Kingdom, and on… allows private practice to flourish. A doctor can open his own office if her wants. They simply do not have 18% of the health care dollars going to profit insurance middlemen who benefit by denying services.
Employer provided health insurance is a drag on the economy and a disadvantage on competition. It’s an anomaly that came about after WWII. If half of what employers plus what we pay in premiums went to a universal healthcare plan, there’d be no funding problem, plus we’d be more competitive in the global market place.
KKKKarl Rove writing in the rabid Wall Street Journal editorial page – soon to become even worse when Rupert takes it over – is nothing more than KKKKarl still pandering to the 28 percenters.
Not to mention trying to deflect the campaign from the sore spot he and his buddies created – the war in Iraq.
The great unwashed ain’t that dumb.
Let’s get the proposed solutions so that we can compare them.
We already have the Dem proposal that queen Hillary has decreed.
Ms. Inks, I have to sneak in and out of Wichatittie today for the Bro’s 50th birthday.
Don’t hang around too long here,it’s toxic.
Oh, and have a great weekend.See ya’ Monday morning.
DennisIt is racist, bigotted and ignorant for you to label Karl Rove as KKK. You lost any respect with that childish comment.
Kev and the rest:
Medicare and Medicaid deny claims all the time.
How is it better to have your claims denied by the government?
And— from a confirmed capitalist:
The “problem” with the HMO system is that it contains a “conflict of interest”.
The primary care physician must pay, out of pocket, for referral to a “specialist” — or that primary care physician can retain that patient and face possible malpractice if he or she suspects the case might be over their head.
Referrals should be strickly medical, and not financial.
Hillary’s old plan pretty much worked the same way.
The problem with health care costs is that the system is not free market based. Insurance and federal programs skew the price structure way out of line. If you want a market-based system, eliminate insurance. See how the Pukes like that!
Econ, Aren’t the KKK right wingers? Most of you guys act like fascists anyways.
I agree if you want health care costs to drop get insurance out of the equation. Look at medical produecures that aren’t covered by insurance and you will find them affordable Lasik eye surgery, abortions, cosmetic. I also believe that the push for some sort of government health plan wont come from democrats but from businesses Big businesses like Boeing, walmart dont want to be saddled with extra expenses having to pay for insurance affects GM, Ford, Chrysler profitability as their European and Japanese counterparts dont have that expense. the Wichita Learjet plant came close to closing partly because provided health care is expensive and they dont have this problem in their Canadian and European factories, Small businesses often cant afford to offer health insurance and that affects their ability to keep good help.
A universal health care tier, with both employer and employed dollars going in, would work. You pick the level of health care you both need and can afford, and without the middle man, costs would drop dramatically. The middle mantakes a great percentage out for his pocket, which is the capalist way, and one I don’t really have a problem with. But is it needed? I don’t think so, IMHO.
I took care of a woman who had worked for one of the aircraft companies here, and assumed she was covered by the insurance plan. The morning after she received her diagnosis of MS, she was called to personnel and fired for “withholding medical information that could affect her job performance.” It turned out that the order to fire her came from the insurance carrier who knew about her diagnosis because the tests for it had to have prior approval from them. She was offered the opportunity to continue her health coverage (as the law mandates), at a premium of triple her former takehome wages. As a result, she ended up on medicare and medicaid, which paid her very extensive healthcare costs for the next 18yrs at taxpayer expense.When you see ripoffs like that from the insurance industry you begin to understand how it has remained so profitable. Same way the Mafia stays profitable!In case you hadn’t noticed, we already have socialized medical care here. You’re just required to impoverish yourself before you’re eligible.
Some how Jed, I doubt that story is true.
Rev Jim
Democrat Senator Jim Right was former “Grand Klegal” of the KKK.
The “KKK Act” was written to “—Protect “Catholics, Republicans and Negroes” in the Reconstruction South.
The Democrat Party was the pro-slavery party. In many areas of the Country, the Democrats and the Klan had nearly identical leadership, until modern times.
Labor unions are historically Democrat.
ALL labor unions were racist, keeping Blacks out, until recent times.
Racism is a problem for ALL groups in America, but your Democrat Party can NOT claim historical sainthood, on this issue.
Therefore: Keep your ignorant “KKK” comments to yourself, would you please?
Sorry the senators name is Robery Byrd, not Jim Right Write Wrong
Communism was designed to get rid of profit and eliminate the “middle man”.
Gosh, how did that work?
Actually, the KKK act was written to protect blacks, but the KKK had become so powerful, and their methods so violent, that protecting Jews, Catholics, and other threatened people became part of it. The kkk hated anyone who was not a southern white baptist, after all.
Yes, the act was written by republicans, and many “southern gentlemen (read kkk members) were indeed listed as democrats, but I would disagree with their party status, as no right thinking democrat would embrace such a philosphy.
One thing to remember, though, is when the racial problems exploded in the sixties and seventies, it was the democrats who pushed for racial reform. It was the republicans who “saw no need for such nonsense” as the civil rights bill.
Both parties have major skeletons in their respective closets concerning racial rights. To single out one is a bit cheesy.
stumperThanks, kinda.
The KKK act reference that I gave is right out of the preamble of that law. “To protect Catholics, Republicans and Negroes.”
Also, during the forced bussing, Brown VS Board of Ed RIOTS, the Northern cities of Detroit, Boston, Chicago, etc, ALL Democrat cities, had far more White on Black racism on display. Those cities were the most violent.
The whole point of opposing racism is accepting the fact that we are all part of the human race.
When liberals feel superior to conservatives, they are, themselves, de-humanizing their opponents.
Especially when that dehumanization process involves party or geography, that “liberal”, making such judgements, is a RACIST liberal.
Looks to me like the earlier reference to KKKKarl Rove is only a good case of stuttering….
As in a very OLD song “KKKKatie”
During the Nixon era America had a problem. Health care was so cheap that everyone could have access to it. Nixon was convinced to make it into a for profit industry where people could be charged more and receive less. As a result health care costs continue to skyrocket and that money is invested into bribing politicians to maintain the status quo. Now the number one cause of personal bankruptcy is due to health care expenses.
The majority of Americans want affordable health care. The Republican party only appeals to about 25% of the population, the same wack jobs who think it’ll be a good thing if we have a nuclear war because the death of a billion people will bring Jesus back.
So Rove thinks by appealing to the extremist minority the Republicans can win on the health care issue? He ran with the same crowd who thought we’d be in Iraq for a few months and the occupation was cost a few billion dollars.
Rove has been correct 0% of the time so I am feeling quite secure that those want better health care in America will be voting Democratic next year.
So let me get this straight…they fought Clinton trying to reform it back when it first started to become a crisis, now that millions of Americans are in big trouble, and republicans take away the ability for Americans to file bankruptcy on medical problems….NOW they think we’re going to give them a snowball’s chance in hell at fixing this? When they let it get this bad to begin with?
NO F’n WAY!
All it’ll be is more power to the insurance companies.
They’ve been denying and ignoring this problem for far too long, laughing in the face of the ones who have been sounding the alarm.
And you watch, once we HAVE to go green, they’ll try to find a way to say they need to be in charge of that too.
Major cities are mostly known as liberal, however, to label them as racist does a disservice to both the cities and the minorities that inhabit them. The larger a city, the more it will attract minorities, who generally hope to find work and a comfortable living space.
That neighborhoods, especially older ones, are inhabited by niche people, read Irish, German, etc., does not make them racist, although racism does exist there. The resistance to blacks moving into those neighborhoods was racism at it’s ugliest. But it was usually just a few causing all the trouble.
The demographics that caused the race riots of Watts, Chicago, Atlanta, etc, were driven by economic rather than racism. Even though racism was the underlying theme of the riots ( police brutality being the factor starting most riots) they would never have happened if the minorities were able to find work.
I think there has been, and still is, a major misunderstanding of what exactly racism is in this country. It’s certainly not the racism people like Sharpton and Jackson spout about. It is an ingrainged thing perpetrated generationally: father tells son blacks are bad, son believes dad, and passes it on to his son.
I know very few, if any, people who became racist latter in life. Most are born into it. When it comes to who to blame for racism, or who is more tolerent than the other, politics wise, I gotta laugh. And that for the simple reason there were no parties innocent when slavery was accepted in this country. They all had blood on their hands, the republicans and the democrats.
Econ, read about Dixiecrats.
“Nixon was convinced to make it into a for profit industry where people could be charged more and receive less.”
That’s something I never heard before. Got a link?
And Kev, if you get a speeding ticket, your health insurance should cost more. And if you do anything risky, you should pay more. Nevermind, we’ll just rig up your body, car, and bank account to a monitor and beam the signal back to your doctor.
Econ is part of the insurance industry. Of course he wants his fat pockets lined.
PM
“But it was usually just a few causing all the trouble.”
Nonsense. Entire cities have been, by-in-large, abandoned to Blacks and new ones built in the suburbs.
What dream-world do you live in?
Just read this: Bush will veto the child health care bill, wich would cost $35 billion over 5 years, but plans on asking congress for $200 billion for the war.
Real good, prez: picking killing people over saving children. Yep. You certainly do deserve the title, worst president ever.
Uh, I’m not off topic…I’m actually discussing healthcare. I think you got the wrong personEd.
Kans,”Some how Jed, I doubt that story is true.”
I can see how you wouldn’t want it to be, but I’m afraid it is true, and hardly the only one. I’ve heard similar stories from at least a dozen other people with high-maintenance long-term health problems, and that’s in a fairly small group of people. Extrapolate that, and the industry has made a fortune! Insurance companies will do everything possible, legal or illegal, to avoid paying such claims (witness the companies that refused to pay legitimate claims after Katrina). Many if not most people who have long-term illnesses end up having to spend down to poverty and taking Medicaid. Until recently, couples where one partner had health problems could end up having to divorce to protect at least half their assets. Some family values!
PM
You’re right, that was meant for “stumper”
political mom
And you?
You want something for nothing.
Its not going to happen.
No matter who wins any election!
Ed,We’re not looking for something for nothing, we’re just tired being constantly ripped off by corporate healthcare. Yesterday, I went to get a prescription for a must-have drug and found the price had risen from $160 to $225 for a month’s supply that no doubt cost less than 10 cents to manufacture (and they made back R&D costs years ago). Surely, even government can do better than that!
Sorry, that was ment for Pall.
Karl Rove?
Who cares what Karl Rove thinks about anything?
We are going to have some form of accessible health care for all. This will happen because it must happen. A society that does not care for its people does not survive.
A society that learns how to vote for money out of the treasury does not survive.
A government that learns how to buy votes with the taxpayers money does not survive.
Hey Paulie?
YOUR magnificent leader is about to veto the health care of poor kids.
Now you think on that for a minute.
My kid is 13. We have no health insurance. Do you think for one second that I would encourage my son to fight to defend a country that effectively says to him, “you’re on your own kid!”
Of course I wouldn’t.
You neocon folk are getting yourselves in a sticky spot Paulie. You wanna piss on and piss off the whole world and ya aint gonna have any feet for boots on the ground. Good luck balancing that equation.
Oh that’s right. The grown ups are about to take charge again.
JRIf you cant provide health insurance for your child, the blame is SQUARELY on your back.
You should be ashamed.
Don’t blame me, or Bush, for YOUR shortcommings.
If you spent one half the time you spend on this blog, picking up aluminum cans, you could probably pay for a juvenile health insurance plan.
Pall,”A government that learns how to buy votes with the taxpayers money does not survive.”
How ’bout an administration that uses taxpayer money to buy campaign contributions, and then passes laws to benefit the contributors for more contributions? Big money is going to end up buying it’s own demise, and sooner than you think!
Um Paul?
Wouldn’t a military draft be the greatest form of “socialism”?
Hey if a society has no obligation to the basic health of its citizens? Why then I’d say those citizens exactly the same obligation. Remember that between bouts of exerting military industrial power.
JR
Two links for you,
Kansas Healthwave:http://www.kansashealthwave.org/english.asp
Kansas Health Insurance Association:http://www.khiastatepool.com/
I am guessing that your beer budget, alone, would pay the premium for your son.
Again, YOUR responsibility, not mine!
As we have already concluded, JR, you are a communist.
Karl Marx watched his son die of starvation, while he penned his famous books in the library.
Marx thought that HE was too important to sell apples or pencils on the street corner, to support his children.
You seem to have alot in common with Karl Marx, JR!
Ah Paul I’m not a communist.
I just want the same opportunity for everyone. YOU know. As opposed to those like you who sell out their fellow workers and suck up to management. Bilk any old ladies outta their pensions lately?
Here is what the anti-clinton heatlhcare ads from 1994 were saying.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt31nhleeCg
And who is “we” by the way Paulie?
I’ve never encountered anyone here who agreed with you about anything. You got a gerbil in your pocket?
Enough with Paulie.
There is more than enough waste in the health care we have to go a long way toward making it more accessible. I thought conservatives were all about efficiency and productivity?
Oh not if it makes them wait in the waiting room 10 minutes longer I guess.
Pall,
Riiggghhhhttttt! I’m sure everybody can afford $485mo per child for $500 deductable health insurance! Current minimum wage wouldn’t pay for two kids insurance even if they didn’t eat or live anyplace, and we all know your position on a minimum wage increase.
Nice, you think JR can earn enought collecting cans to cover health insurance? Have you lost your damn mind?
Just like a neocon, blame the poor. Should do more..more…more.
Spent a lot of time in hospitals while my dad was sick and dying.
There’s not alot going on in a hospital after 5 or so.
Hey I’d come in for an MRI at 2:50 in the morning if they needed me to.
There’s lots of unused resources like that. It’s just a matter of making it a matter of health care and not HMO CEO bottom line care. The competition brought by a partial government system can go a long way toward addressing that.
Every other major country in the world has a universal health care plan. One where all medical expenses are covered for all citizens. Canada pays HALF per capita for its universal health care plan and they live LONGER than Americans. Until we stop voting against our own self interest we will continue to get some other medical shell game where the HMO’s and drug companies get richer. It is shameful that we dont have universal health care in this country.
First
I do NOT like HMO’s ok?
Second, HMO plans are not the dominate provider of health insurance in the United States.
Third, if taking the profit motive out of health care will “work” than why not take the profit motive out of food, energy, recreation, clothing?
Answer: because that is Communism.
Answer: because it does NOT work!
By the way folks,
The standard of living in Canada is roughly 25% LESS than in the United States!
That is what socialism does for a country!
Premiums?
The Kansas Health Insurance Association is a high risk pool, it is for the uninsurable, between jobs or waiting for Medicare to kick in.Those on “Medicaid spend down” can also join the program.
Healthwave has far lower premiums, and is for kids.
JR wants no premium.
JR thinks his kid is OUR responsibility!
I think you’d have no trouble making your wars my kids responsibility.
Gotta give to get Paulie.
It is your war too, coward
As most Americans will proclaim, “Leave my healthcare alone.”
The media hype has driven this to hysteria. But less than 10 percent of us do not have healthcare plans. And many of those who don’t, choose not to.
Leave well enough alone.
Nope, not my war Paulie. Not America’s war either.
It’s all yours! Enjoy!
Did you US bozo’s notice that our Looney was equal to your American Dollar in value yesterday?
About time we got equal treatment.About time the world recognized the growing power and robust strength of our economy.
Now that we are on par, I can really afford to visit for healthcare treatment.
Ed,”What dream-world do you live in?”
I lived in Los Angeles during the Watts riots. I lived in San Diego during the Rodney King riots.
There’s a whole lot more to demographics than city/suburbs than race. I’ll neither justify, nor qualify racism. It is what it is, but being in the thick of things, and seeing the cause/effect/result, I stand by my statement.
Pall,A reasonable profit is acceptable and needed. Figuratively holding a gun to someone’s head and saying “Give me everything you’ve got or you die!” is robbery of the worst sort. That is what the current health insurance industry is doing to it’s customers. That’s not reasonable profit.
AW, according to Americans…42-58% of Americans are VERY DISSATISFIED with healthcare in America.
http://pollingreport.com/health3.htm
I think Econ 101 is totally out of bounds by making the statements about JR that have been made…
Some day, Econ will need health care… And he will find that even with a good deductible, say, 20%, can cost a fortune out of pocket… say, for Chemo Therapy, where the Chemo costs about $25,000 per treatment… and his blessed insurance will pay about 80% — leaving him to pay that extra $5,000 out of pocket…And when that has him stumped, it happens all over again the next week, and the next, for 7 months… And when he is wondering how he will possible afford $140,000 maybe he will understand what is being said here… NeoCons dont understand problems, until you put a $$$ in front of it…
I know what I am talking about… cause I’ve been through it… not to mention the 20% per day of the cost of Radiation Therapy, for 2 months on top of the Chemo…
BUT — I am still living to tell about it… So, I am grateful… Broke, but grateful!!
ChasI dont intend to bore you, but JR and I have a long history.He has been a jerk to me for quite some time and I reserve the right to treat him differently than the rest of you.
ChasGovernment control will mean the rationing of health care.You wont have the option to pay for it yourself, it just wont happen.You will die.Compassion?
“You wont have the option to pay for it yourself, it just wont happen.You will die.”——————————–
That is absolutely NOT true! Individuals who can afford private insurance will always have the right to purchase it. Individuals who can afford anything will always find those willing to take their money. The health care “industry” will be reformed over the next few years with the Democratic Party enjoying a greater majority in Congress and the presidency.
Thats the way I read it too, Linda… And BTW, I think Econ is the REAL jerk here… Econ prattles on and on about what a great American He/She is, but all the while, wanting to HURT other Americans!!! SHAMEFUL!!!
Chas and LindaHow am I HURTING anyone?You are giving false hope, claiming to “cure” problems that you dont even address, and you will cause far MORE problems with your schemes than any of you are willing to admit.
The government wants CONTROL, that is what governments do, they try to grow, they try to restrict private competition, they are not benevolent or charitable institutions.
I do think that the ONLY plan that makes any sense is to allow people to “buy into” Medicare.
That system has high deductables and co-pays.
Private insurance will still be necessary.
However, I do not believe or trust Hillary. She wanted a complete take over before. No reason to trust that this is not her goal, now!
My, my, my — A case of extreme paranoia… As if Government doesnt have control NOW??? Much of it put there by Republicans and Conservatives…
I remember every time Reagan said he wanted to take big government off the backs of the American people, how long it would be before one of his cronies would put forth some new RESTRICTION on the citizens… Scared me a LOT every time Reagan went on that rant… Things arent much different now…
A President that wants to take over the Constitution is what you should be afraid of… (Habeus Corpus, Patriot Act, an amendment to ban gay marriages) Not one who wants universal health care…
Hillary has NEVER SAID YET that there would be no private health insurance…. In fact, she says just the OPPOSITE… She says there will ALWAYS be private health insurance for those who want it… I heard the speeches where she has SAID that… and yet some of you paranoid people keep on putting words in her mouth that she just has NOT said!!
WHY do you insist on doing that??? Is it the politics of FEAR, or what???
Hillary has not changed her plan at all, she is just going about it with less arrogance this time:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/RichardHCollins/2007/09/21/forget_9-1-1%e2%80%a6_in_case_of_emergency_call_1-800-hillary
ChasA “single payer system” only “works” legally, if their is ONE payer. (It never works well economically.)Hillary SAID that is what she wanted, several years ago.It now appears that she intends to set up a system that forces everyone into the government plan.
Answer me this, we have Medicaid, now, for the poor. We even have Healthwave, for the children of many in the middle class who still cant afford standard health insurance for their kids.
The “uninsured” pay out of pocket for at LEAST 25% of their care now. It does NOT all go unpaid.
A great many of the uninsured are uninsured by CHOICE! They could afford insurance, they chose not to buy it.
Those uninsured who need massive amounts of health care will still get it. Medicaid is still available once they reach those limits. Bankruptcy is still available, with few restraints, for medical needs.
— IF they cant afford premiums NOW, how will they afford MANDATED premiums?
Please LIST the problems you see with our current system and explain, EXACTLY, how more government envolvement will fix or cure that problem.
You simply cant do that.
Government programs have HUGE gaps in coverage.
Government programs routinely deny coverage for many proceedures.
You need to quit waiving your magic wand and realize that Government can NOT fix the problems you don’t like.
By the way, it is NOT paranoia to take Hillary or the President of Iran at their word.
I believe they will do what they say they are going to do.
Hillary wants to take over our Health Care System.
She has never said otherwise.
Government programs provide better coverage than ANY Private insurance out there bar none.
You people like to sit here and say people are uninsured by choice…and then you tell people to go get another job if they say they can’t pay it.
You know it’s not true that people are uninsured by choice.
So why lie Paul?
“”"Kev and the rest:
Medicare and Medicaid deny claims all the time.
How is it better to have your claims denied by the government?”"”
As I said before I have no problem with the rationing of health care as long as it is done on a MEDICAL basis. Rationing is a cold cruel fact of life. If you have people that are on a transplant wait list that are over 75 and in poor general health, they probably ought not to be there even if they are rich. The organ should go to the person that has the best chance of a full recovery and a normal life even if they are poor.
Econ, I dont know what propaganda machine you listen to, but you sure have taken their bait, hook, line, and sinker… Hillary has said NO SUCH THING, and not only that, you cant prove she did!!! My ears still work fine… You dont WANT to hear what she has to say… It might somehow upset your little private, personal apple cart…
Well, guess what, there are a LOT of other apple carts around, that NEED fixing… If yours doesnt, then nobody is going to CHANGE yours… WHY do you want to keep the benefits of change from those who want, or need it???
“However, I do not believe or trust Hillary. She wanted a complete take over before. No reason to trust that this is not her goal, now!”—————————-
Well, econ, just wait and see. You won’t need to wait very long. We have such wonderful changes and improvements in our near future. We’ve suffered through almost seven years of someone totally untrustworthy; it is time for better!
In case you hadn’t noticed, we already have socialized medical care here. You’re just required to impoverish yourself before you’re eligible.
Posted by: Jed
I agree totally. As I have shared before, I was diagnosed with colon cancer in April 2007. I was advised to divorce my husband, quit my job and go on Medicaid. That advice came from the hospital financial office!
But this is not the first time I have been advised to do this. My son was 5 yrs old (20 years ago) and he was diagnosed with Type I diabetes. I had two small children, married but had too many medical bills to keep up. I was advised then, also by the hospital social worker, to divorce my husband and then my children and I would get on Medicaid and the kids would have free healthcare until they turned legal age.
Now how is this any different than socialized medicine? In fact, in socialized medicine, I would probably be working and having to pay something towards my healthcare.
Why is it so difficult to understand that our current healthcare system is broken and needs fixed?
Why are insurance companies allowed to negotiate cheaper prices than a self-pay person? Why do insurance companies have the authority to play God with the insureds’ life? Some pencil pusher in an insurance company office has the power to tell my doctor yes or no on some test in order for my doctor to correctly diagnose my problem?
And for some reason, every Republican likes this system. I wonder why? Maybe because their healthcare insurance company stock is doing so well???
Hillary is going to take away our expensive health insurance whaa! whaa! whaaaaaa!
Maid,You may need to talk to an attorney, but I think there’s a way now to divide your family’s assets without a divorce and you only(!)need to spend down your half to qualify for medicaid.
300 million Americans. After subtracting illegal criminals, and those who simply do not pay for available healthcare, we have 20 million of us not covered.
And they are all eligible for treatment at emergency rooms, by law.
So, you CREATE A WHOLE NEW ENTITLEMENT SYSTEM, and the bureacrats who will come with it -for less than 10 percent?
Makes no sense. Leave healthcare alone. Cover the few, but do not make drastic changes. My coverage is great.
And lastly, if you believe: “I’m from the government, I’m here to help.”
you also believe in the tooth fairy.
Chas,Econ’s apple cart is the insurance scam (excuse me-industry)- he sells the stuff! Of course he’s scared his game won’t be the only one in town.
Common Sense(?),You really need to get some! Emergency room care is the most expensive kind in the country, and besides it jams up the ER with cases better treated in a doctor’s office!
When a local aircraft company proposes even modest changes in health insurance plans, the Union types go nuts.Posted by: Econ101
gosh, heaven help us if someone out there actually working and apying taxes wants to not lose benefits.
you are why rove could get bush elected to pres and as gov in texas.
how does rove hold your love and interest in such a mediocre person as bush?
well, mccain loves bush too even after bush and rove talked about what a “bad pow” mccain was in nam.
a “bad pow” god, can it get any worst than a coke addict drunk draft dodger like bush saying anybody is a “BAD POW”??
but then you are so easily led. you can lose track of the truth, you know, bush was a drug addict drunk draft dodger. rove waved a bright shiney object in front of your face and suddenly bush is good and mccain is somehow “bad”.
kinda like the god awful iraq “war” you forget about so quick when bush says… “well golly someone took out an ad in a newspaper talkin about a general.”
you are too dumb to live in a democracy.
So what if there uninsured people in this country who don’t health coverage?
My coverage is great.
Posted by: Common Sense
yeah, i’m sure you are doing just fine.
of course you don’t care about other people.
so, hopefully soon you will lose your fabulous health coverage, you will get sick, lose your house, and there will be no one around to help you.
now, that’s real karma.
“In case you hadn’t noticed, we already have socialized medical care here. You’re just required to impoverish yourself before you’re eligible.”
it’s called “the american way”
it goes like this.somebody moves all the way up the social scale to living in a trailer park with three kids and who knows who the dads are, watching ricki lake and springer after they manage to wake up, and proudly say…
“i’m one of them republicans cause bush he lowered my taxes”.
it’s called “the american way”
it goes like this.
you work at an ok paying job. for some reason so far your company hasn’t lowered your benefits while raising the cost to you. your company hasn’t realized, yet, they can outsource your semi-skilled job to an 14 year old girl in china, so you think you got the world by the tail.
it’s easy for you to go around and brag how there aren’t that many people without health coverage so why would the govt want to upset things since you are covered just fine.
it’s called “the american way”
and, we’re very proud of how we can go into another country and blow the crap out of it because we are the usa.
A great many of the uninsured are uninsured by CHOICE! They could afford insurance, they chose not to buy it.Posted by: Econ101
yeah, that’s it, those people don’t want insurance.
how hard is that for you d.a. people to understand?
Chas,Econ’s apple cart is the insurance scam (excuse me-industry)- he sells the stuff! Of course he’s scared his game won’t be the only one in town.
Posted by: Jed | September 22, 2007 at 11:34 PM
=========================
Oh gee, thanks — NOW you tell me!! LOL That would explain part of the paranoia…. LOL
Much too late to stumble around the sock puppet ballet… time for bed… already posted my usual blessing above!! Nite all!!
pmom
Don’t call me a liar if you havent walked in my shoes.
I have WALKED AWAY from investment sales.
Why?
Because the dope I was talking to refused to buy HEALTH insurance.
I am open to lawsuits if I set someone up in an investment program without taking care of their insurance needs FIRST!
There are lots of people who have NO health insurance because they expect the taxpayers to pay for it, or they expect to go bankrupt if the bills stack up.
So, there is some law that requires Health Insurance in order to buy an investment package?? Thats a new one…
You are so full of crap Rosell.
“Government programs provide better coverage than ANY Private insurance out there bar none.”
So says pmom
???
If Medicare is so great, why do we have Medigap insurance?
YOU are responsible for the first $992.00 of a hospital bill, for EACH admission, under Medicare.
Starting on day 61, YOU are responsible for $248.00 per day.
Starting on day 91 YOU are responsible for $496.00 per day.
After 150 days, Medicare pays NOTHING!
Don’t tell me nobody stays that long.
I have CLIENTS who have!
For “Skilled nursing” Medicare really only pays for the first 20 days.
After that period of time, you must have a doctor sign that you are “under a doctors care and showing continuous improvement” EACH DAY in order to stay on Medicare.
The cost for day 21 through day 100 is $124.00 per day, to YOU.
After day 100, you are ON YOUR OWN!
Outside the hospital, there is a $131.00 annual deductable.
Then there is 20% Co-insurance, FOREVER, in each calendar year, with no cap.
Even with all these holes, or GAPS, Medicare is highly subsidized by the taxpayers.
Lower income people pay $93.50 a month for Medicare Part B.
A private, “Medicare Supplement” policy costs around $100 to $120.00, for a 65 year old, depending on the plan you pick and your tobacco use.
I know budgeting in retirement is very hard for some, but Medicare’s actuarial COST is probably around $393.00 for Part A, per month. This is how much Medicare charges for people who have NOT earned enough “credits” for “free” Medicare A.
Part B premiums are $93.50 for lower income people, per month. This is roughly 25% of the actual cost. So the taxpayers are paying around $280.50 per month, for each retired person, to subsidize Part B.
$280.50 plus $393.00 = $673.50 per month in taxpayer subsidy.
http://www.medicarehelp.org/MedicareHelp/part_a_premium.htm
http://hiicap.state.ny.us/medicare/partb.htm
The “boomers” are about to retire.
All retired people should be affraid of Hillary.
The government can’t pay for the programs we have NOW!
Kev
“The organ should go to the person that has the best chance of a full recovery and a normal life even if they are poor.
Posted by: Kev | September 22, 2007 at 09:08 PM
This is done NOW, under our current system.
When I bring up “rationing” I mean to say that non-emergency operations would take several months, even years, on a waiting list, under a government run program.
Chas
Let me help you:
A stockbroker in California recently was sued by a client.
The client had gone into a nursing home.
The stockbroker had told the client that:
The number one reason for bankruptcy is unpaid medical bills.
The number one reason why people cash out IRA accounts is to pay medical bills.
However, the stockbroker could not get the client interested in Long Term Care insurance (Which IS health insurance.)
The Stockbroker had no proposals on file, to prove he had brought up this issue.
The Stockbrokers “errors and omissions” insurance (malpractice) paid part of the clients nursing home bill.
Apophis
The NASD requires “suitability” for all investments.
It is NOT suitable to set someone up in any investment plan who has NO health insurance, without FIRST asking him or her to cover those risks.
Also, It is ILLEGAL to sell Long Term Care Insurance to someone who has no assets, without first telling that person that the STATE might pay some of the nursing home expenses, and explaining to that person that health insurance and long term care insurance, were DESIGNED to protect WEALTH not HEALTH!
Fidelity Investments and Oppenheimer recently gave me some free continuing education courses.
The subject of part of that seminar and the literature?
“Health Insurance Liability for Investment Professionals”
Here’s the deal (for me), econ. I read what your interpretations of current events is and realize you are in a different world reading different words and making VASTLY different conclusions than I am. Now, since I think (as all people do) that I have done due diligence and formed rational opinions that makes your opinions wrong to me. Same way it works for you when reading all those stupid liberal idiots or whatever vile and malicious words you’ve come up with this time to describe people who think differently than you.
Linda
Once again, your “moral relativism” crops up.
I am right on this.
You are wrong.
I don’t care if you agree with me or not.
The truth is not decided by majority vote.—
By the way, libs on this Blog.
I am speaking to you all, collectively.
Go back and start at the beginning of this thread.
I have been called “paranoid” for thinking Hillary wants to completely take over private health insurance with a government plan.
I have also been told, by you libs, that Hillary was “going to upset my applecart” or take away my ability to sell private health insurance.
Which is it?
You libs contradict yourselves and each other so much, I am not sure, sometimes, why I need to say anything.
(Other than the entertainment value in seeing you all get so mad at the truth.)
However, the stockbroker could not get the client interested in Long Term Care insurance (Which IS health insurance.)
The Stockbroker had no proposals on file, to prove he had brought up this issue.
The Stockbrokers “errors and omissions” insurance (malpractice) paid part of the clients nursing home bill.
Posted by: Econ101
If the Stockbroker had tried to get the client interested in Long-term Care insurance, then why did the stockbroker NOT have some paperwork to prove that he did, indeed, try to sell the client the long-term care insurance?
This is not some stupid law you should be mad at – it is the stockbrokers’s own fault for not covering his ass with the necessary paperwork to prove that he DID try to get his client to take out long-term care insurance.
This sounds like a case of a stupid stockbroker to me.
Health Savings Accounts and their other permutations make for great tax shelters. :)
Pall,”I have also been told, by you libs, that Hillary was “going to upset my applecart” or take away my ability to sell private health insurance.”
It unfortunately won’t stop you from selling insurance to the public, but it will force you to compete with a program that doesn’t rip them off. If you compete honestly, your applecart stays upright; if you won’t (and I’m betting you won’t) we’ll see you in the unemployment line when we come to hire day labor!
Pall,”When I bring up “rationing” I mean to say that non-emergency operations would take several months, even years, on a waiting list, under a government run program.”
So you don’t get that tummy tuck in time to impress that sweet young receptionist. Don’t worry, you weren’t going to impress her anyway.
maid
PLEASE try to keep up.
I was told that I was “full of crap” when I stated, truthfully, that I have walked away from investment sales because the prospect refused to buy health insurance.
Chas challenged me on this, as did Apophis.
The merits of the stockbroker/LTC insurance case were never at issue, in my post.
My point was that there are more than a few rather well off individuals who REFUSE to buy health insurance.
Then, when they get sick, they expect the REST of us to pay for it.—-jedIf someone you love ever has a health care financing problem, you would thank Heaven for me, or someone like me, who knew how to deal with the matter.
Your insults are uncalled for.
I never “challanged” you on anything in particlur Rosell. I merely stated that you are full of crap. I will state that you and the industry you represent are the biggest part of the healthcare crisis………..you want to profit from the suffering of others. That makes you pretty much pure evil, just like the Nazi’s from WW2.
ApophisDo attorneys help people who might be suffering?
Do Medical Doctors help people who might be suffering?
Do Nursing Homes help people who might be suffering?
Do Ambulance drives help people who might be suffering?
Do Police and Fire and EMT First responders help people who might be suffering?
Do Chiropractors help people who might be suffering?
Do these people get paid for that service?
Or do they work for free?
You are in “education” arent you Apophis?
How DARE you profit from ignorance?
(Especially YOUR OWN)
Your insults are uncalled for.
Posted by: Econ101
What insults against you? I simply posted my opinion on your case of a stockbroker being held liable for not presenting his client with long-term care insurance and somehow that translated into malpractice.
Unless you were the so-called stupid stockbroker that you were referring to your in your little scenario – then no insult was directed at you.
Has paranoia set in?
maidYou really are NEW to this arent you?
I addressed MY “insult” comment to Jed, not to you.
I made that very clear.
Please read everything at least twice before you respond. You are wasting space with weird non-topical comments.
This is what I said
Maid “memory” UN:
“—-jedIf someone you love ever has a health care financing problem, you would thank Heaven for me, or someone like me, who knew how to deal with the matter.
Your insults are uncalled for.
Posted by: Econ101 | September 23, 2007 at 04:06 PM “—–
Pall,Someone I loved had healthcare insurance and got screwed out of it by someone like you the moment she was diagnosed with an expensive illness!
JedYour details are a bit light, arent they?
We do have an insurance commissioner in this state. If I come accross anything illegal or unethical, I turn in my fellow agents. I have done so in the past.
Furthermore, agents are LIABLE for bad advice. You can sue the agent, in court, for monetary damages.
IF you had a real CASE, lawyers would be happy to hear from you.—-Once more, folks, I have to remind you:
MedicaidMedicareVeterans AdministrationTriCare
ALL deny some claims on a REGULAR basis.
Why is it better to be denied by the government, than to be denied by a private company that actually CARES about image and public relations?
Case in point:
After 9-11, many insurance companies could have gotten away with it, legally, under the “war or act of war” provisions of their life or casualty policies, and REFUSED to pay damages.
They paid anyway, the public cost of not paying would have run them out of business.
Private insurance, under public pressure and government regulation, is the best of both worlds.
Pall,The statute of limitations is long past, and at the time, our so-called Insurance Commissioner was owned outright by the insurance industry. He went to work immediately for the industry when he got voted out.Further, this wasn’t a case of bad advice, it was flat out cheating her out of many thousands of dollars in benefits in collusion with the company she worked for. Neither needed suing, they needed summary execution.
JedThen there would have been an attorney out there, somewhere, to take the case.
And AGAIN: Government programs deny claims ALL THE TIME!
Pall,Sure, if you’ve got money to fight the insurance companies. They’re betting you don’t.
JedIf you have a good case, you can get an attorney on a contingency basis.
Pall,Considering the statute of limitations is up and the person screwed over is now dead, I doubt if a decent attorney would take the case. Pistotnik might, but even if he won, we’d lose.
Pall,”Government programs deny claims ALL THE TIME!”
The government rarely calls your employer and tells them that you are going to get very expensive soon, and if they don’t make you go away, they may get their premiums increased.