There’s a fundamental dishonesty in the ongoing debate about the Iraq war. While Gen. David Petraeus and other officials keep talking in terms of six-month increments for progress in Iraq, most military people and politicians know it will take years to stabilize the country.
Retired Army Gen. John Abizaid, former commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, said last week that it would take three to five years before the Iraqi government is stable enough to govern on its own.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice last week also suggested that we’re there for the long haul.
“We’re at the beginning of a transition in the Middle East, we’re at the beginning of a long process of dealing with what the president called a long time ago a generational challenge to our security brought on by extremism coming principally out of the Middle East,” she said.
Translation: We’re just at the beginning of occupying Iraq.
Our leaders aren’t being honest with Americans about the huge long-term commitment needed to make a difference in Iraq.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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65 Comments
we are building the largest embassy building in the world in baghdad.
any ideas why.yeah, we’re gonna be there forever. thanks to that d.a. bush.
two questions…
why is a french contractor building it?
how long can we continue to waste $12,000,000.00 an HOUR in iraq?
The dishonesty is our foreign policy which gives Israel the right to break International Law and violate the Geneva Conventions while we help slaughter the Arabs.
That same foreign policy only teases the Palestinians with a Palestinian State while bulldozing their homes and farms and murdering their people at will.
This PNAC project which Bush is following is bankrupting this country while creating billionaires out of the right wing ruling-class in Israel.
All this tension has moved crude oil to over $80 dollars a barrel { as of yesterday } and Gold to over 700 dollars an once in anticipation of the dollar and the American economy crashing.
Bush’s Neocons and Israel’s Zionists cannot be reasoned with, but congress can cut-off the money without having a veto-proof bill.
We have no more “time” or money to offer.
*********************************On 23 March 2004 it was reported that “U.S. engineers are focusing on constructing 14 “enduring bases,” long-term encampments for the thousands of American troops expected to serve in Iraq for at least two years…. The number of U.S. military personnel in Iraq, between 105,000 and 110,000, is expected to remain unchanged through 2006.. the US plans to operate from former Iraqi bases in Baghdad, Mosul, Taji, Balad, Kirkuk and in areas near Nasiriyah, near Tikrit, near Fallujah and between Irbil and Kirkuk… enhance airfields in Baghdad and Mosul…”
*******************************http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/iraq-intro.htm
Sooner or later the Chinese are going to get tired of funding this war.
The fly in the ointment of the Bush Doctrine is that in order for it to work all the rulers of the middle east will have to be dethroned. Of course the problem with that is that they are the ones that keep the extremists from gain hold in the middle east. AND it will be the extremists that have the will to overthrow them and if we were the one to try it. It will only serve the extremists in their call to defend the land from the Crusaders.
I really listened and tried to let go of my biases last night when I watched John Kerry and John McCain on Meet the Press.
John Kerry’s points really made far more sense than did John McCain. I hold a great deal of respect for McCain, but he truly seemed to be making no sense. He even claimed a quote wasn’t what it really meant from one of his ‘friends’ that was on MTP earlier…
There is no military end to this war, and the factions are not willing to work together. Neither the Shia, the Sunnis, nor the Kurds are interested in having Al Qaida there. If we leave, it is likely they will start fighting them and running them out of Iraq so that they can deal with their own civil war instead of fighting us. They’ll divide into their own regions, and yes, Iran will influence the Shia part.
Getting the three parties to agree is even harder than trying to get Republicans and Democrats in America to agree- and I don’t blame either side for wanting what they want.
I also don’t agree with Kerry who said we will leave a few troops there to aid with security. No. I’m not willing to let a small force become sitting duck targets for attacks. We need to just completely leave. Where McCain thinks the worst thing that can happen to America is to be considered losers in there, I’m saying it’s not. The WORST thing that can happen to America is for our troops to remain a big target for more attacks.
So these are the options, leave completely or stay fully. Staying fully just means more of the same, for a very long extended period of time. Do you really want that? Or do you want to start fighting the real threats to our nation.
Gee, Randy, you expect honesty from our leaders…the Bush/Cheney people. Boy, you sure want a lot.
Yes I watched Kerry and McCain on MTP last night too. I know it was just my eyes playing a trick, but everytime McCain spoke I kept seeing G.W. Bush’s face on his!
It’s really too bad that McCain has sold his soul to the devil. He should pay attention to how his poll numbers dive when he parrots Bush.
If the U.S. government plans to occupy Iraq, on a large scale (upwards of 100,000 troops), for years and years to come, then basic questions need to be addressed about the existing army. Since Pat Roberts is my Senator, I am asking him: what’s your plan for the army, as it stands now, which is already spread too thin? Are you planning to reinstate the draft? (Perhaps Congressman Tiahrt would like to weigh in on this. Feel free, Congressman.)
The truth is, no one has an answer to this question. That’s why the matter is being discussed in smaller increments of time. An honest discussion would require an honest assessment of the army.
We are in there permanently.
We are building the largest Embassy compound in the world. One of the largest foriegn bases in the world. Spending billions on permanent infrastructure. Just for us!
Yeah! We are in there forever.
“we are building the largest embassy building in the world in baghdad”
Didn’t we do that in Saigon too?
p-mom:
“He should pay attention to how his poll numbers dive when he parrots Bush.”
—–Without taking a position on the underlying policy, basing one’s positions on whether “poll numbers dive” IS, in itself, selling one’s soul to the devil. Any politician who bases his policy positions primarily on polls and popularity isn’t fit to be in office.
And BTW – Previous sentence brought to you by the letter “P!”
Not sure how long there will be ‘contractors’ in Iraq, looks like may be some set for the gallows.
Iraq revokes security contractor license after shootout 1 hour, 14 minutes ago
BAGHDAD (Reuters) – Iraq announced on Monday it had withdrawn the license of a U.S. security firm and would prosecute employees it said were involved in a shooting in Baghdad in which 11 people were killed.
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An Interior Ministry spokesman said security personnel working for contractors Blackwater had opened fire after mortar rounds landed near their cars in Nusour Square in the western Baghdad district of Mansour.
“By chance the company was passing by. They opened fire randomly at citizens,” Brigadier-General Abdul-Karim Khalaf said. Eleven people were killed, including one policeman, and 13 people were wounded, he said.
The U.S. military said on Sunday security contractors working for the State Department were involved in an incident, but gave no further details.
No one was immediately available to comment at Blackwater offices in North Carolina.
“We have withdrawn its license,” Khalaf said, adding that the ministry had also formed a committee to investigate the incident and “deliver those who committed this act to the court.”
Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki condemned the shooting and vowed to punish the perpetrators and their employers.
“We will work to punish and halt the work of the security company which conducted this criminal act,” state television quoted him as saying.
Interior Minister Jawad al-Bolani said security contractors “must respect Iraqi laws and the right of Iraqis to independence on their land.”
“These cases have happened more than once and we can’t keep silent in the face of them,” he told Arabiya television.
Thousands of private security contractors, many of them American and European, have worked in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion to topple Saddam Hussein in 2003.
Many Iraqis believe they operate outside the law with little accountability either to the Iraqi government or U.S. military forces.
Khalaf did not say how many contractors were involved in the shooting. He said the investigating committee had gone to the scene and spoken to witnesses, and would also visit the company’s compound in Baghdad.
And who did not really know about this long-term military use in Iraq since Day One?
Last week when George W. Bush mentioned this in his speech, I heard several pundits talk about this is the first time they have heard this part of the plan.
Duh…..if long-term occupation was never a part of Bush’s plan then why were bases being planned even before invasion? And the big question is the oil revenue sharing. Bush does not want to share the oil – he and Dick Cheney want total control of the oil. That has been the number one reason for this insane war.
Bush and Cheney wrapped the Iraq War up in the US flag, democracy and God and their blind loyalist Pat Robertson got his followers to march in lockstep in support for the war.
I wonder what these so-called Christians will do when they get to Heaven and God tells them he hates War?
Heh Ben, you sound like John Prine.
“Now Jesus dont like killin’ no matter what the reason’s for, and yer flag decal wont get you into heaven anymore.”
GMC,”Any politician who bases his policy positions primarily on polls and popularity isn’t fit to be in office.”
Are you saying that the only politicians who deserve to be in office are the ones that lost the election? Now THAT’S interesting!
No, Jed, I’m saying that one should derive ones positions from what one believes to be in the best interests of the nation and one’s personal values/core philosophies, not the whims of a fickle popularity contest as measured by the latest poll of the week. I want politicians to explain to me why their proposed policy is the right policy for the nation, and why their approach to governance is the right approach. I don’t want politicians to pander to what I want to hear. If their positions on those issues are out of sync with the votors, so be it. They should lose.
In short, I expect more of those who would be president than the ability to stick their finger in the wind and follow the prevailing breeze.
Good for you, GMC.
That’s why, thanks to Worst. President. Ever., the Democrats are poised for their biggest success in years.
I’d like to personally thank Worst. President. Ever. Look on the bright side, Reagan started a secret illegal war and couldn’t hand the Democrats a victory. Bush I almost did it with his visionless mediocre nothing-ness, but then Newt Gingerich and Rush Limbaugh clawed back with a vengance.
Bill Clinton helped them a lot when he recklessly had sex with an intern in his White House office.
But then, GDub comes along and does what no other Republican has done before: sticks the party’s head so far up its own ass that it’ll take decades to get it out.
Meanwhile, health care (actually, WEALTH care) has gotten to a crisis point. Piratizing Social Security is dead, dead, dead. And 70 percent of Americans want the troops home now.
Thank you, Mr. Bush.
Ready for 60 more years in Britain, Germany, Italy, and Japan?
Ready for 55 more years in Korea?
Ready for 15 more years in Kosovo?
When are we bringing 134,615 troops home from Britain, Germany, Italy, and Japan? (Been there 60+ years now!)
When are we bringing 36,050 troops home from Korea? (Been there 55+ years now!)
When are we bringing 1,773 troops home from Kosovo? (Been there 15+ years now!)
Some foreward positioning of US troops is necessary. There are locations where strategic bases are needed permanently. Given the strategic location of Iraq, the US will be based there permanently, just as the US has been based in locations around the world.
Selected US Troop Deployments overseas:
Germany * 74,745
Italy * 12,493
Serbia (includes Kosovo) 1,773
United Kingdom 11,341
Japan * 36,036
Korea, Republic of * 36,050
Bahrain 1,770
Egypt 351
Qatar 272
Saudi Arabia 228
Honduras 446
http://siadapp.dmdc.osd.mil/personnel/MILITARY/history/hst1204.pdf
Hey Max, how many soldiers were blown up in Germany, Korea, Japan, Britain, Kosovo, and Italy combined last year? Was it more or less than the number of soldiers killed in Iraq this week?
Do you really need this explained to you?
Max:
Personally, I’d favor bring most of those troops home. Forward deployment made sense years ago, in the face of a Soviet threat and lacking the ability to move quickly forces that we now have. We are in Europe today more because the Europeans want us there than because our security needs require it. And they want us there, bluntly, because US forces and installations in Europe means US dollars pumped onto Europe’s rather anemic economies.
This one is easy. Ready for a Dem house, Senate, and President?
Works for me.
Hey Max, how many soldiers were blown up in Germany, Korea, Japan, Britain, Kosovo, and Italy combined last year? Was it more or less than the number of soldiers killed in Iraq this week?
Do you really need this explained to you?
Posted by: leftcoaster | September 17, 2007 at 11:14 AM
Um, 3 years into the war in Germany, and Japan well over 200,000 killed. In just one battle Iwo Jima, around 7,000 Americans dead, 28,000 Japanese dead.
Oh, about 3,000,000 dead Germans, not counting civilians. Around 1,500,000 dead Japanese, not counting civilians.
Korea, about 35,000 US dead in the first 3 years of that war. Around 200,000 Koreans dead.
I would bet in Iraq, 50-60 years from now, the death rates will be about the same as in Germany today.
You are using figures to make a point I posted some time ago.
It was/is ok for the US to occupy the countries we saved in WWII fordecades, but we can’t occupy Iraq long enough to allow them to get their feet back on the ground. In my post I mentioned that all those countries were rubble or wasteland. And now all of them are democracies and economic powerhouses. EU Euro is stronger than our dollar today. And what helped these countries recover?
It only makes sense to occupy Iraq like we did for decades elsewhere. It ensured stable and vital partnerships for the USA. I agree we shouldn’t be in most of these countries any longer.
So in conclusion, the only reason to surrender in Iraq is political.Help the democrats win.
But ignore history. You are doomed to repeat it.
Nice, Max. Apparently neither you nor hotdog noticed that your pretzel logic completely undermined your own argument. No sane person believes that the troops in these locations are doing anything similar to what the troops in Iraq are doing.
Let’s rephrase some of leftcoaster’s questions consistent with your self-serving answers. We have been in Iraq since March 20, 2003. So:
How many troops have been blown up in Germany since Jun 4, 1946?
How many troops have been blown up in Korea since December 22, 1954?
Is that greater or lesser than the number of troops blown up in Iraq last year?
Oh, and here’s a special bonus question: how does it rank compared to the number of American troops killed in Vietnam in, say, 1968? or 1969? or 1970? Or. . .
The Chinese are getting their money’s worth. Israel passes along our top-Secret weapons systems and how to defeat them. Every Diplomatic pouch the Israeli Embassy smuggles out of America lands {sold } in China and is crammed-full of out best weapons, new technologies and anything else that AIPAC can gather-up for them.
When are you all going to figure how bad your being had?
{ by AIPAC’s “close relationship?”}
Your questions are pointless. The decision to go to war was made. We don’t cut and run because Americans are dying.
We cut and run if it is the right thing to do.
Or you stay committed if it is the right thing to do.
Either way, and in any war people die. Each life is precious.
American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 3781 3111
Since “Mission Accomplished” (5/1/03) (the list) 3642 3003
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 3320 2805
Since Handover (6/29/04): 2922 2478
Since Election (1/31/05): 2344 2215
American Wounded Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 27848 23000 – 100000
It is not the body count that determines a nations will to fight. At least it should not be.
Numbers listed are KILLED/In Combat
“It is not the body count that determines a nations will to fight. At least it should not be.”
If you really believe that’s the only reason people oppose the war, you’ve been sleepwalking the entire time.
But go on, blindly wave your flag. Don’t ask questions.
Rage, you are trying to compare casualty numbers in Germany, Japan, and Korea AFTER those wars were over, to the causalty numbers in Iraq while that war is still ONGOING.
You want apples to apples, compare the first 4 years of each war to Iraq.
“The Chinese are getting their money’s worth. Israel passes along our top-Secret weapons systems and how to defeat them. Every Diplomatic pouch the Israeli Embassy smuggles out of America lands {sold } in China and is crammed-full of out best weapons, new technologies and anything else that AIPAC can gather-up for them.
When are you all going to figure how bad your being had?
{ by AIPAC’s “close relationship?”}
”
Get a life. The Israelis dont need to smuggle our tech out. The govt gives it away or sells it to the Chinese. Check Clinton, Bush 2 among others. Why would the Israelis need to smuggle anything out? Just another typical Jew hater hiding behind the Nazi Zionism argument.
If you really believe that’s the only reason people oppose the war, you’ve been sleepwalking the entire time.
Posted by: Rage | September 17, 2007 at 01:09 PM
Gee Rage, YOU brought it up.
“Rage, you are trying to compare casualty numbers in Germany, Japan, and Korea AFTER those wars were over, to the causalty numbers in Iraq while that war is still ONGOING. ”
That exactly makes my point, Max. Maintenance forces are not the same as combat troops. What we are doing in Iraq–what we WILL be doing in Iraq, by the administration’s own account, for several years hence, is hot war, not keeping the peace.
Or, more accurately, the type of “low-intensity conflict” guerilla warfare that went on and on and on in Vietnam, with no discernable end in sight. Only in a sense it’s worse (though not in absolute body counts), because we did indeed “win” the war in 2003–the regime was overthrown.
Now we’re trying to “stabilize” the situation by propping up a corrupt regime that noticeably favors one side of a raging civil war 9which, incidently, was predicted in 2002 by numerous experts).
How is this worth any more American blood?
Well Rage, those 3,700 Americans died for nothing then, if your Lib Democrats simply have America surrender.
What’s the price if we surrender?
Overthrowing Saddam was our stated goal in invanding Iraq hes dead now so why stay? And too put it bluntly most soldiers and people die for nothing in the politcal sense.
You read Flags of Our Fathers Tom?
Did they die for nothing?
And too put it bluntly most soldiers and people die for nothing in the politcal sense.
Posted by: Tom Paine | September 17, 2007 at 01:38 PM
Yes, that is pretty blunt. But hey, 40,000+ Americans died in car wrecks last year.
Maybe we should withdraw cars!
McDonalds led to the heart disease deaths of thousands of Americans last year. And also caused the obesity of thousands more, that leads to diabetes, cancer, and death.
Or wait, obesity is a disease now, which can’t be caused by the food we eat, can it?
Max,To say “they died for nothing” ignores everything they did, good or bad, when they were there. The enormous fear and hardships endured. Apparently, people like you only cheer for the home team when they’re winning, How disgusting.
But the sports-analogy thinking is screwed anyway. Not only is it obscene to think of war in that way, it doesn’t even apply: as TP pointed out (and I did, too, upthread), “mission accomplished” was more than 4 years ago. If we leave, we leave behind a human tragedy, but certainly not a military loss, at least not in the usual sense of the concept.
And it’s 1-2-3, what are we fighting for?
If Iraq wants our help so much, why are they kicking about 20,000 of us out?
All of Blackwater USA… except for the ones involved in a gunfight that killed at least 8 civilians, including a policeman.
‘Iraq shootout firm loses licence’http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6998788.stm
Because Blackwater is an unregulated Merc army.
Sure the WWII losses can be linked to some noble cause but thats not true for most wars.
Did the soldiers who died in Panama effect the drug trade?
World War I didnt solve anything was a total waste of life
Korea Vietnam both still comunist dictatorships.
And the list goes on
“Because Blackwater is an unregulated Merc army.”
And the services they provided will probably now have to be done by U.S. troops.So it’s roughly = to a troop withdrawal.
Without taking a position on the underlying policy, basing one’s positions on whether “poll numbers dive” IS, in itself, selling one’s soul to the devil. Any politician who bases his policy positions primarily on polls and popularity isn’t fit to be in office.
Posted by: GMC70
wow i thought politicans were elected to rep the people who voted them into office.
you know, the people vote for someone who they agree with and expect them to go to washington dc and vote that way.
when ever a poll shows around 8% of the people agree with the republican position, the repukes say… it’s just a poll it don’t mean anything.
Well Rage, those 3,700 Americans died for nothing
What’s the price if we surrender?
Posted by: Max
ALMOST CORRECT,they died for oil,it would have been cheaper to buy it from saddam.
EVERY YEAR WE STAY IN IRAQ6000 american kids comming home armless, legless, major brain injuries. ptsd.900 american kids deadoh yeah,$108,000,000,000.00 wasted.what social security shortage?what insurance problem.bridges falling down no problem.hey, at least they aren’t getting blow up.
Max, why do you only want to compare the number of soldiers killed in the first 4 years of each conflict?
The first 4 years of WWII, Vietnam, and Korea, we had a draft. And we did NOT have troops in the enemy’s capitol city.
After WWII was over we occupied Germany. After the war was over. We are occupying Iraq in the middle of a war. More importantly, once our army captured territory, the fighting stopped. In Iraq, once we captured territory, the fighting started.
The lesson for you is don’t compare Iraq to WWII unless you are willing to submit to a draft of all men age 18-35, rationing of gasoline and other war materials, and a defined territorial objective that once achieved concludes the war.
What we have in Iraq is a slow bleed. We achieve no defined objective, and lose men and money every day. Our only definition of winning involves keeping soldiers where they are.
Leftcoaster, read above. Another poster made the comparison between Iraq and other Countries where we have soldiers – like Japan, Korea, Germany, etc…
If you want to compare apples to apples how many died in the different conflicts, then you must look at the deaths that occurred AT THE TIME OF THE CONFLICT.
And no one from anything I’ve posted can say that Max doesn’t love America.
The extrapolation above assumes the same conditions in Iraq today will continue every year forever. AND the poster does not list the CONSEQUENCES of what likely will happen if America surrenders in Iraq.
Go figure, Max doesn’t want America to Surrender so I get accused of hating America.
Max – but the Bush supporters accuse Democrats of hating America all the time and that does not bother you?
The most used tactic of Bush and Company is to attack the person’s patriotism if he/she dares to speak against the Iraq War. From Day One, there were many Americans that felt this invasion was wrong but we were called everything under the sun.
Now, after much bungling and mis-truths from the Bush Administration, there are 70% of Americans that feel this insane war is not needed and we need to bring the troops home.
Bush and Cheney only invaded Iraq because of the oil and until that issue has been resolved to their liking – the US will continue to have troops in Iraq.
Bush has made many more enemies than he has friends in the region. One cannot go into a country, bomb everything in sight and then think the people would welcome us as liberators. Cheney stated that would happen and when it did not, then the war strategy should have been changed. But Bush stubbornly dug his heels into the ground and thumbed his nose at the mere thought of diplomacy working to resolve some of these issues.
Then, Bush puts his entire trust into the new Iraqi government that sees fit to take a 2-month vacation when the fighting is STILL going on. And what has always puzzled me is that these government people like Maliki all seem to be well-dressed, well-fed and having no problems with their electricity, water and food shortages. Perhaps this new Iraqi government has learned the Bush lesson of arrogance and holiker-than-thou piety all too well?
Real leadership is needed to resolve the mess that Bush and Company has created.
First and foremost, the US needs to get off the dependence of Middle East oil. True freedom from terrorists will come when the US can say to the Middle East – shove your oil barrels up your collective asses!
Maidmarion, your last paragraph is THE ANSWER, but the Democrats/Republicans have not offerred any solutions to make America energy independent – in fact:
Drilling for more oil in the US is not being allowed.
Nucleur/Coal plants are not being allowed.
Wind power is being denied in some areas.
NO OPTIONS are on the table. Ethanol is a short-term partial solution at best. At worst, with a drought, food prices soar and all these ethonal plants go bankrupt.
There are those Maidmarion, I’m not saying all by any means, but there are some Democrats who see a political victory from defeat in Iraq – and those I would call unpatriotic. (I posted links to this the other day)
Love your country first, your political party next.
And I love my Independent party, can’t say I even like any of the other partys.
The aftermath of Iraq if America surrenders likely would be tragic and very costly to those in the region and to America.
Not an easy decision to stay, but sometimes a Leader must make the Right decision, which isn’t necessarily the popular decision.
GMC wrote about that elsewhere today and some people don’t understand that we need a Leader who will tell this country what it NEEDS to hear, not necessarily what it WANTS to hear.
If people don’t educate themselves on the issues, and spend some time thinking about the issues, it’s often difficult to know the difference between NEED and WANT.
“Drilling for more oil in the US is not being allowed.
Nucleur/Coal plants are not being allowed.
Wind power is being denied in some areas.”
Posted by: Max
The U.S. oil reserves are very limited, and being rapidly depleted. More drilling is not a viable solution.
New nuclear and coal plants are expensive. Coal will be hit with a carbon tax in the future.
Wind is being built at proper sites.
The highest priority should be on increasing energy efficiency.
Written in 1990, but even more true today,
‘Make Fuel Efficiency Our Gulf Strategy1′http://www.rmi.org/images/PDFs/Security/S90-26_MakeFuelEffGulf.pdf
“Are we putting our kids in tanks because we didn’t put them in efficient cars? Yes: we wouldn’t have needed any oil from the Persian Gulf after 1985 if we’d simply kept on saving oil at the rate we did from 1977 through 1985.” More at link.
A very detailed report,http://www.oilendgame.com/ReadTheBook.html
This is a trial balloon to prep the American people for the reality they are afraid to face. They have been scared by the defeatist tactics of the Democratic Party of America. America will be in Iraq for many years to come. No different than occupying Japan, South Korea, Germany and many others following active combat – to restore the peace, install democracy, and promote economic development. Today, America can be proud those countries we occupied are among the economic and political leaders of the world. All all of them are allies, decades after the active warfare.
Get used to it libs. Go burn your flags in private.
we wouldn’t have needed any oil from the Persian Gulf after 1985 if we’d simply kept on saving oil at the rate we did from 1977 through 1985.” More at link.
A very detailed report,http://www.oilendgame.com/ReadTheBook.html
Posted by: cosmos | September 17, 2007 at 06:03 PM
This was one of the worst economic periods in the history of the United States. Stagflation of the late 70’s with 10 to 13% inflation, 10% unemployment, 15-20% interest rates for mortgages, and a Recession in the early 80’s that led to record foreclosures in 1985-86.
And Cosmos want’s to replicate this period of ‘energy savings’ for America today!
Yup, economic collapse would be the result of defueling the economy.
“GMC wrote about that elsewhere today and some people don’t understand that we need a Leader who will tell this country what it NEEDS to hear, not necessarily what it WANTS to hear.”
Max, I agree. However, I doubt such a leader will get elected using that as a platform. Congress needs to get in line themselves on this issue. They need to tell us what we need to hear and now what we want to hear in addition to a president willing to follow this belief.
You Can’t Conserve Enough,
Are you claiming that the oil price jumps in 1973 and 1979 were NOT a big economic factor in the U.S. recession?
Are you claiming that U.S. economy would have been STRONGER in the mid-1980’s, if Americans had continued to drive the much lower mpg cars of the 1970’s?
It takes TIME to replace the vehicle fleet. People do not scrap a vehicle they bought a few years earlier. They trade it in, or sell it.
Oil prices finally dropped in the late 1980’s, partly due to the lower demand caused by higher mpg vehicles.
See figure 3, page 15 (pdf page 39 of 332) in Oil Endgame report.
“Why would the Israelis need to smuggle anything out? Just another typical Jew hater hiding behind the Nazi Zionism argument.”
An AIPAC troll tries to change the subject.
First: There is nothing wrong with the Jewish Religion and spies in America come from all Religions.
Second: AIPAC members have been caught red-handed doing exactly what I said.
Mr. Gonzales wasn’t going to prosecute anybody, so those AIPAC spies are still in Limbo.
Hey you G-D troll, “the Jew-hating Trick or Nazi whatever name-calling” isn’t going to works, so crawl back into your little Zionist/AIPAC hole.
You are a Jew hating bigot hiding behind the shield by using Zionism as your excuse. I am not a member of AIPAC and if I was, I doubt we would be having this conversation because I am sure the AIPAC conspiracy group would have dragged you off to wherever they take people that mention them. Maybe they are stringing you along to find out how much you know before acting.
How anyone in their right mind can believe that such a small group of people can control the world is mind boggling. Where is your proof? I have seen no list of the Zionists, their locations, or anything that lends creditability to your conspiracy theory. There is more evidence that someone in the Reagan administration planned the assassination attempt against him than there is of some great Zionist conspiracy. There is more proof of the Trilateral Commission conspiracy theory, the grassy knoll gunman, Elvis being a CIA operative still alive and in hiding, the moon landings being faked. Show me proof the Zionists have taken over the world or are trying to and I will believe you. The proof needs to be real and not some neo-Nazi or KKK based trash. I seriously do not think AIPAC would allow you to keep breathing if it is all powerful as you mention. I suspect they would have hunted you down and silenced you. Hacking this site to determine where you live would be a piece of cake for those people. You would disappear or die under “natural causes.” Maybe they are waiting for the proper time to take you out. I do not see any AIPAC conspiracy reality, and I would not post anywhere about it should I find it to be true. I would not trust anybody and I would be afraid AIPAC would find me and kill me. I see the same thing from the 9/11 conspiracy theorists. They claim the government did it but they fail to address why the government is not silencing them.
AIPAC are friends to all. They have no knowledge of any disappearances or deaths occuring after people badmouth their group. Coincidence, nothing more. People afraid of AIPAC become so paranoid they do not pay attention and have accidents. AIPAC assumes no legal, moral, or ethical responsibility for those people. You can visit AIPAC at http://www.aipac.org and see for yourselves how harmless AIPAC is.
There was an interesting academic paper about AIPAC last year.
“As Walt and Mearsheimer noted, only their conclusion — that the Israel Lobby’s unprecedented success has shifted U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East away from a narrow focus on America’s national interests — is controversial, and then only by a matter of degree. The data from which they drew that conclusion came largely from Israeli academics and journalists and, as the authors point out, ‘are not in serious dispute among scholars.’
What was interesting about the paper was its authorship and the reaction it elicited from Israel’s many U.S. supporters. Those supporters inadvertently proved Walt and Mearsheimer correct on at least one point: the Israel Lobby doesn’t tolerate debate about the relationship between the United States and its favorite client state, and it’s quick to accuse dissenters of having the vilest of intent.”
http://www.alternet.org/audits/34416/
A link to the PDF was posted here at the time.
P.S. Alternet’s own characterization of the paper’s conclusions is a tad mild.
A tad milder than that not-so-veiled Death-threat from the G-D Zionist asshole hiding behind a fake name.
“”natural causes.” So you did kill Arafat?
Do you ever come-out from under your rock?
Dear Mr. Ed Friedemann,
I am not a Zionist, nor am I a Jew or Israeli, I am an American citizen. I have forwarded your concerns to the Southwestern Regional office of AIPAC in Houston and invited them here to discuss your issues. I do not know if they will respond. I trust this will dispel your fears and answer all questions you have for them.
Sincerely yours,
Happy
Wouldn’t you just love to have this clown for a next door neighbor?
{ and he wonders why nobody likes him }