Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Monkeyhawk on Open thread 11/23
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/23
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/23
- outlander on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Let immigrants run
- SolDevVB on Let immigrants run
- Monkeyhawk on Let immigrants run
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- okobserver on Let immigrants run
Open thread 9/7
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Sept. 7, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
- Permalink
- Comments RSS
- Both comments and trackbacks are closed
259 Comments
Freedom isn’t dead yet (it’s just resting!):
http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation/story/263805.html
Timely post Rage.
“The lawsuit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of a plaintiff identified as John Doe”
Just as a Website hosted on a server in Minnesota is the meeting place for terrorists on how to attack U.S. bases, how to build and deploy bombs and other terrorist activity.
Yeah, those ACLU guys are watching out for someone’s best interest and safety. It just isn’t the American Public’s best interest or safety.
Dems already discount war report
http://washingtontimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070906/NATION/109060064/1001
“Congressional Democrats are trying to undermine U.S. Army Gen. David H. Petraeus’ credibility before he delivers a report on the Iraq war next week, saying the general is a mouthpiece for President Bush and his findings can’t be trusted.”
I justlove the links from the Washington, Sun Myung Times(The Moonies) Like the Moonies ever did anything to help the USA???
You can do better than that Nathan!! After all, the White House has already said it is writing the General’s speech FOR him…
“”"Timely post Rage.
“The lawsuit was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of a plaintiff identified as John Doe”
Just as a Website hosted on a server in Minnesota is the meeting place for terrorists on how to attack U.S. bases, how to build and deploy bombs and other terrorist activity.
Yeah, those ACLU guys are watching out for someone’s best interest and safety. It just isn’t the American Public’s best interest or safety.”"”
Ir is freedom of speech. Now if it crosses from telling people HOW to do it into actually PLANNING such a thing then it changes into a crime. But it is not illegal to tell people how to commit crimes, make bombs, grow marijuana or do any number of things.
Are these pairings correct?NY Times and Wash. Post.NY Post and Wash. Times.Honestly, I got mixed up sometimes…
Actually….
“A Web site that sells materials stating that individuals can legally stop paying taxes has been shut on the order of a federal judge.
Judge Thomas J. McAvoy, a senior judge in the Northern District of New York who issued the order on Aug. 9, wrote that the First Amendment did not protect the two organizations that operate the Web site, or their founder, because the site incited criminal conduct. Judge McAvoy ruled that some people who went to the Web site stopped paying taxes, causing the government harm.
Judge McAvoy also ordered that the names, addresses, telephone numbers, e-mail addresses and Social Security numbers of every person who received materials on how to stop paying taxes be turned over to the government.”
http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/realityzone/UFNtaxevasionsiteclose.htm
Hey Kansas–I’d much rather take the chance of being blown up by terrorists and keep my freedoms. Surrender your freedoms and you’ll never get them back. Also, don’t forget that it is in your government’s interest to make the threat of terrorism seem as bad as it can be.
“Hey Kansas–I’d much rather take the chance of being blown up by terrorists and keep my freedoms.”
Pleased to be wondering what freedoms you have lost. Please be specific.The sentiment you express is reason number 3,527 why you people will have a McGovern moment come November ‘08.
In the words of Benjamin Franklin “Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety”
“Those who would give up Essential Liberty…”
That’s all very nice and platitudey, but not too specific.
yes, Fleettwood, and note the word “essential” before Liberty.
I find nothing “essential” about a Website that promotes terrorism and making of bombs for the purpose of killing Americans.
When the Libs are asked, “what liberties have you lost because of this action?” None will reply, because they haven’t lost any liberties.
It’s all about “nose honking’ platitudes to say, “look at me,
WE THE VICTIMS” of the United States of America.” Then wrap themselves with a Chinese-made American flag, while wearing Jane Fonda t-shirt.
You will know the Facist, when he comes wrapped in a Flag, carrying a Cross!! (Sinclair Lewis)
It is sad that so many unquestioningly go along with the government whenever the word terrorism is mentioned.
Obviously, essential is subjective. What is key the specificity or the philosophy and basis behind the ‘freedoms’?
For me, and hopefully some others, it is not the loss of a specific freedom that I currently enjoy that worries me. It is the precedent of taking away from any person any freedom constituionally given to them in the name of security.
“It is sad that so many unquestioningly go along with the government whenever the word terrorism is mentioned.”
What’s sad is you people are going to blow your chance to get back to the White House with your pacifist drivel.
“None will reply, because they haven’t lost any liberties.”
All I am hearing, so far, is crickets.
Fleet
Habeas corpus
warrantless wire tappinggoing to war w/o declaring war
FISA courts
Warrantless searchesNational ID Cards
What liberties have you lost Sol?
Secret prisonsTorture
Don’t be an idiot Kansas. The government has failed to act constitutionally. In as much, every American has lost.
You are failing to answer the question Sol. What liberties have you lost?
Dip shit,
READ
It’s already there. I’m sorry the GOP hasn’t given you any better talking points, but you can’t change the facts above.
China’s Army Hacked Pentagon Network
China’s Army hacked into a computer network at the Pentagon in an attack that has U.S. officials concerned about the growing regularity and sophistication of China’s technological assaults. The People’s Liberation Army penetrated a network used by aides to U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates in June.
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,148037,00.html?ESRC=dod-b.nl
“You are failing to answer the question Sol. What liberties have you lost?”
Chirp Chirp
Damn you two are dense. If this were Bill Clinton doing this, you’d be shouting in the streets. But since the GOP said it was ok, there go Fleet and Kansas — It’s all ok folks, business as usual, nothing to see here — except the loss of liberty and with it freedom.
Don’t be an idiot Kansas. The government has failed to act constitutionally. In as much, every American has lost.
Posted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 09:10 AM
Chirp chirp GOP Monkey boys.
It is ok to break the law and go against the constitution as long as it doesn’t affect me as an individual. Is that REALLY y’all’s best defense?
Pathetic.
Riverbend, the Sunni woman who’s been blogging from Baghdad, made it out of Iraq to Syria.
***********************************”Baghdad Burning
… I’ll meet you ’round the bend my friend, where hearts can heal and souls can mend…
Thursday, September 06, 2007Leaving Home…Two months ago, the suitcases were packed. My lone, large suitcase sat in my bedroom for nearly six weeks, so full of clothes and personal items, that it took me, E. and our six year old neighbor to zip it closed.
Packing that suitcase was one of the more difficult things I’ve had to do. It was Mission Impossible: Your mission, R., should you choose to accept it is to go through the items you’ve accumulated over nearly three decades and decide which ones you cannot do without. The difficulty of your mission, R., is that you must contain these items in a space totaling 1 m by 0.7 m by 0.4 m. This, of course, includes the clothes you will be wearing for the next months, as well as any personal memorabilia- photos, diaries, stuffed animals, CDs and the like.
I packed and unpacked it four times. Each time I unpacked it, I swore I’d eliminate some of the items that were not absolutely necessary. Each time I packed it again, I would add more ’stuff’ than the time before. E. finally came in a month and a half later and insisted we zip up the bag so I wouldn’t be tempted to update its contents constantly.
The decision that we would each take one suitcase was made by my father. He took one look at the box of assorted memories we were beginning to prepare and it was final: Four large identical suitcases were purchased- one for each member of the family and a fifth smaller one was dug out of a closet for the documentation we’d collectively need- graduation certificates, personal identification papers, etc.
We waited… and waited… and waited. It was decided we would leave mid to late June- examinations would be over and as we were planning to leave with my aunt and her two children- that was the time considered most convenient for all involved. The day we finally appointed as THE DAY, we woke up to an explosion not 2 km away and a curfew. The trip was postponed a week. The night before we were scheduled to travel, the driver who owned the GMC that would take us to the border excused himself from the trip- his brother had been killed in a shooting. Once again, it was postponed.
There was one point, during the final days of June, where I simply sat on my packed suitcase and cried. By early July, I was convinced we would never leave. I was sure the Iraqi border was as far away, for me, as the borders of Alaska. It had taken us well over two months to decide to leave by car instead of by plane. It had taken us yet another month to settle on Syria as opposed to Jordan. How long would it take us to reschedule leaving?
It happened almost overnight. My aunt called with the exciting news that one of her neighbors was going to leave for Syria in 48 hours because their son was being threatened and they wanted another family on the road with them in another car- like gazelles in the jungle, it’s safer to travel in groups. It was a flurry of activity for two days. We checked to make sure everything we could possibly need was prepared and packed. We arranged for a distant cousin of my moms who was to stay in our house with his family to come the night before we left (we can’t leave the house empty because someone might take it).
It was a tearful farewell as we left the house. One of my other aunts and an uncle came to say goodbye the morning of the trip. It was a solemn morning and I’d been preparing myself for the last two days not to cry. You won’t cry, I kept saying, because you’re coming back. You won’t cry because it’s just a little trip like the ones you used to take to Mosul or Basrah before the war. In spite of my assurances to myself of a safe and happy return, I spent several hours before leaving with a huge lump lodged firmly in my throat. My eyes burned and my nose ran in spite of me. I told myself it was an allergy.
We didn’t sleep the night before we had to leave because there seemed to be so many little things to do… It helped that there was no electricity at all- the area generator wasn’t working and ‘national electricity’ was hopeless. There just wasn’t time to sleep.
The last few hours in the house were a blur. It was time to go and I went from room to room saying goodbye to everything. I said goodbye to my desk- the one I’d used all through high school and college. I said goodbye to the curtains and the bed and the couch. I said goodbye to the armchair E. and I broke when we were younger. I said goodbye to the big table over which we’d gathered for meals and to do homework. I said goodbye to the ghosts of the framed pictures that once hung on the walls, because the pictures have long since been taken down and stored away- but I knew just what hung where. I said goodbye to the silly board games we inevitably fought over- the Arabic Monopoly with the missing cards and money that no one had the heart to throw away.
I knew then as I know now that these were all just items- people are so much more important. Still, a house is like a museum in that it tells a certain history. You look at a cup or stuffed toy and a chapter of memories opens up before your very eyes. It suddenly hit me that I wanted to leave so much less than I thought I did.
Six AM finally came. The GMC waited outside while we gathered the necessities- a thermos of hot tea, biscuits, juice, olives (olives?!) which my dad insisted we take with us in the car, etc. My aunt and uncle watched us sorrowfully. There’s no other word to describe it. It was the same look I got in my eyes when I watched other relatives and friends prepare to leave. It was a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness, tinged with anger. Why did the good people have to go?
I cried as we left- in spite of promises not to. The aunt cried… the uncle cried. My parents tried to be stoic but there were tears in their voices as they said their goodbyes. The worst part is saying goodbye and wondering if you’re ever going to see these people again. My uncle tightened the shawl I’d thrown over my hair and advised me firmly to ‘keep it on until you get to the border’. The aunt rushed out behind us as the car pulled out of the garage and dumped a bowl of water on the ground, which is a tradition- its to wish the travelers a safe return… eventually.
The trip was long and uneventful, other than two checkpoints being run by masked men. They asked to see identification, took a cursory glance at the passports and asked where we were going. The same was done for the car behind us. Those checkpoints are terrifying but I’ve learned that the best technique is to avoid eye-contact, answer questions politely and pray under your breath. My mother and I had been careful not to wear any apparent jewelry, just in case, and we were both in long skirts and head scarves.
The trip was long and uneventful, other than two checkpoints being run by masked men. They asked to see identification, took a cursory glance at the passports and asked where we were going. The same was done for the car behind us. Those checkpoints are terrifying but I’ve learned that the best technique is to avoid eye-contact, answer questions politely and pray under your breath. My mother and I had been careful not to wear any apparent jewelry, just in case, and we were both in long skirts and head scarves.
Syria is the only country, other than Jordan, that was allowing people in without a visa. The Jordanians are being horrible with refugees. Families risk being turned back at the Jordanian border, or denied entry at Amman Airport. It’s too high a risk for most families.
We waited for hours, in spite of the fact that the driver we were with had ‘connections’, which meant he’d been to Syria and back so many times, he knew all the right people to bribe for a safe passage through the borders. I sat nervously at the border. The tears had stopped about an hour after we’d left Baghdad. Just seeing the dirty streets, the ruins of buildings and houses, the smoke-filled horizon all helped me realize how fortunate I was to have a chance for something safer.
By the time we were out of Baghdad, my heart was no longer aching as it had been while we were still leaving it. The cars around us on the border were making me nervous. I hated being in the middle of so many possibly explosive vehicles. A part of me wanted to study the faces of the people around me, mostly families, and the other part of me, the one that’s been trained to stay out of trouble the last four years, told me to keep my eyes to myself- it was almost over.
It was finally our turn. I sat stiffly in the car and waited as money passed hands; our passports were looked over and finally stamped. We were ushered along and the driver smiled with satisfaction, “It’s been an easy trip, Alhamdulillah,” he said cheerfully.
As we crossed the border and saw the last of the Iraqi flags, the tears began again. The car was silent except for the prattling of the driver who was telling us stories of escapades he had while crossing the border. I sneaked a look at my mother sitting beside me and her tears were flowing as well. There was simply nothing to say as we left Iraq. I wanted to sob, but I didn’t want to seem like a baby. I didn’t want the driver to think I was ungrateful for the chance to leave what had become a hellish place over the last four and a half years.
The Syrian border was almost equally packed, but the environment was more relaxed. People were getting out of their cars and stretching. Some of them recognized each other and waved or shared woeful stories or comments through the windows of the cars. Most importantly, we were all equal. Sunnis and Shia, Arabs and Kurds… we were all equal in front of the Syrian border personnel.
We were all refugees- rich or poor. And refugees all look the same- there’s a unique expression you’ll find on their faces- relief, mixed with sorrow, tinged with apprehension. The faces almost all look the same.
The first minutes after passing the border were overwhelming. Overwhelming relief and overwhelming sadness… How is it that only a stretch of several kilometers and maybe twenty minutes, so firmly segregates life from death?
How is it that a border no one can see or touch stands between car bombs, militias, death squads and… peace, safety? It’s difficult to believe- even now. I sit here and write this and wonder why I can’t hear the explosions.
I wonder at how the windows don’t rattle as the planes pass overhead. I’m trying to rid myself of the expectation that armed people in black will break through the door and into our lives. I’m trying to let my eyes grow accustomed to streets free of road blocks, hummers and pictures of Muqtada and the rest…
How is it that all of this lies a short car ride away?”
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Nice going, Repukes. Bang-up job you’ve done bringing “democracy” to Iraq.
“…except the loss of liberty and with it freedom.”
EVERYBODY PANIC!!!
What I always find odd is that conservatives who always bitch about the size of the government seem to be its biggest cheerleaders
“…except the loss of liberty and with it freedom.”
EVERYBODY PANIC!!!
Posted by: fleettwood | September 07, 2007 at 09:28 AM
You’d have to be an idiot not to see the problem with that. Panic? A little over the top.
But as you see the constitution need not apply anymore, I can see why you’d take this tactic.
Bravo fleet.
It’s time to remind “Kansas” and “Fleettwood” about the consequences of *anyone* in America losing rights such as habeas corpus, and Bush/Cheney shredding constitutional rights.
You’ve read this before (I hope).
But now’s the time to pay attention to it:
“They came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up.”
Flettwood–how about the right to privacy. Your government has no right to know which books you check out at the library or which videos you rent.
And don’t call me “you people.” You don’t know me and haven’t a clue as to what kind of person I am. Such statements really reveal one’s ignorance.
“But as you see the constitution need not apply anymore,…”
No, this is over the top.
Since you cannot answer a basic question Sol, let’s pick apart these “Liberties” you claimed to have lost.—————-Habeas corpusThe right of Habeus corpus has been specifically suspended for those involved as enemy combatants. It was part of the Military Commissions Act.
American civilians do not fall under the purview and legal settings of the Military Commissions Act.
Strike one – Sol—————-warrantless wire tappingHave you committed an act of terrorism that you want to keep quiet? Have you made some International phones calls to Iran that you are worried about Sol?
Strike two Sol—————-going to war w/o declaring warSo authorized by Congress, you really don’t want me to post the funding appropriated by Congress do you? And exactly how is this a loss of personal liberty?
Strike three Sol—————-Secret prisonsYou are a terrorist once again Sol and worried about secret prisons? Why are you so concerned about what the CIA does overseas? Again, what personal liberties have you lost here Sol?
Strike four Sol—————-TortureYou have been tortured Sol? Back to your terrorist ways again? How does this affect your personal liberties Sol
Strike five Sol—————-
More than enough strikes to retire the batter.
—————-Appears to me Sol, you don’t know what personal liberties are, so how could you know when you lost them?
With that I empathize with your ignorance on what personal liberties are and are not.
“Your government has no right to know which books you check out at the library or which videos you rent.”
We are at war. You people don’t seem to get it.
When did congress declare War?
Congress last declared war on December 11, 1941.
How’d those other wars get fought?
“The right of Habeus[sic] corpus has been specifically suspended for those involved as enemy combatants.”________________________________________“The writ of habeas corpus has historically been an important instrument for the safeguarding of individual freedom against arbitrary state action.”
So who gets to decide whom is an enemy combatant as there is no demand for proof?____________________________________________________“warrantless wire tappingHave you committed an act of terrorism that you want to keep quiet? Have you made some International phones calls to Iran that you are worried about Sol?Strike two Sol”
HAHAHAHAThe constitution guarantees my right to privacy. Forget about that one Kansas?_______________________________________________
“going to war w/o declaring war”
The constitution clearly outlines that too Kansas.
__________________________________
“Secret prisonsYou are a terrorist once again Sol and worried about secret prisons?”
Does this make it legal Kansas?
________________________________
“TortureYou have been tortured Sol? Back to your terrorist ways again?”
Back to ‘It didn’t happen to me, so it is OK.
fleetwood,
Fine. If we’re at war, reinstate the draft, raise taxes, and nationalize key industries.
Otherwise, don’t pretend we’re at war so authoritarians like you can employ the Constitution as toilet paper.
Declaration of War on terrorists organization will never be possible and the “Declaration of War argument” constantly presented by the clueless is irrelevant.
The clueless just want to lay down, whimper and then sacrifice another 3000 people on the altar of the Twin Towers monument, so they can feel good about themselves and feely-touchy attitudes.
“Your government has no right to know which books you check out at the library or which videos you rent.”We are at war. You people don’t seem to get it.Posted by: fleettwood | September 07, 2007 at 09:37 AM
When you sacrifice liberty for security, you lose both. YOU don’t seem to get it.
“The clueless just want to lay down, whimper and then sacrifice another 3000 people on the altar of the Twin Towers monument, so they can feel good about themselves and feely-touchy attitudes.”
Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 09:48 AM
Over 5,000 dead Americans from this ‘war’
So, how many more Kansas?
5,000 dead and what exactly has been accomplished?
So Sol, what are those specific personal liberties you have lost?
Name them, not those irrelevant phrases that cover terrorists.
Can you name them Sol?
Surely Sol, you can name at least one personal liberty that you have lost?
Come on Sol, name that liberty you have lost that has affected you personally.
You can do it.
Just name it.
“Just name it.”
They can’t.
Sol, Its the big Government conservatives who control the Republican party that’s going to keep DR Paul from winning the nomination
Secret prisonsTorturePosted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 09:08 AM
FISA courts
Warrantless searchesNational ID CardsPosted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 09:07 AM
Habeas corpus
warrantless wire tappinggoing to war w/o declaring warPosted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 08:53 AM
Now, can you cut and paste where I ever mentioned personal liberties? All of these listed are covered in our constitution. They have all been broken. Now, you two, justify disavowing these items from the constitution.
No, pain, the American people demand to be protected. Ron Paul, and his ilk, won’t do that.
Flying on an Airplane is 10 times the hassle than it was a few years ago. Having to have a passport just to going shopping in Canada Mexico or to go on a cruise
And please also provide where the congress has authorized this disavowment of the same.
What has been accomplished Sol?
Let’s see.
Two countries under the stranglehold of terrorists leaders and dictatorships are on their way to Democracy.
Terrorist training camps once in Afghanistan that were designed to kill Americans no longer exist.
The heads of snakes (terrorist leaders) have been severed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The end of corrupt practices by France, Chinese and Russian governments using the “oil for food” program to help Saddam Hussein to rebuild his war machine to terrorize the Middle East and the region.
The fact we have driven a wedge between the terrorist states of Syria and Iran is significant. Both are declared terrorist states and the world’s largest exporters of terrorism. They will no longer exercise a free path across the sands of Iraq to do their dirty deeds.
Again Sol, you sound exactly like your liberal leftist friends when you hold the deaths of brave American military as a talking point to boost your Blog status. It is both shameful and disgusting.
Again Sol! I’ll write it out clearly.
WHAT
PERSONAL
LIBERTIES
HAVE
YOU
LOST?
No, pain, the American people demand to be protected. Ron Paul, and his ilk, won’t do that.Posted by: fleettwood | September 07, 2007 at 09:56 AM
How exactly is that Fleet? Because he would not enter us into an unwinnable war? Because he would not help create more American hating terrorists than existed before 9/11
Again Sol, as the thread started out, what are those essential liberties that you have personally lost Sol?
“Because he would not help create more American hating terrorists than existed before 9/11″
Alas, Sol, I hardly knew ye.
“Flying on an Airplane is 10 times the hassle than it was a few years ago. Having to have a passport just to going shopping in Canada Mexico or to go on a cruise”
Whoa now, tompaine. Those are necessary inconveniences, not loss of liberty. And even if they were, are you saying they shouldn’t be done?? Are you nuts?
And tell me tompaine, who do you blame for having to go through that terrible trauma?
You know fleettwood, I actually beginning to believe that Liberals think that the people killed in the World Trade Center got what was coming to them.
At least that’s the Ron Paul way of thinking.
Those evil people in the World Trade Center were part of a grand scheme in the U.S. to alienate terrorists, so according to Ron Paul and his faithful chimps, they deserved to die.
Kansas,
Slowly for you..
When the government does not abide by the constitution every American loses. Which words do you not understand?
Can you not address the fact that Bush has not followed the constitution? Can you only say ‘What specifically happened to you?’ If that is your only argument, you have already lost.
Lets look at it this way then Kansas, to use your own logic. Since you did not die in the trade center, you should not support the war. After all, nothing happened to YOU specifically.
I must disagree, Kansas. After the Germans invaded Poland, the chicken monkey in America refused to allow us to go help. It was “their” problem. We’ve always had them.
“You know fleettwood, I actually beginning to believe that Liberals think that the people killed in the World Trade Center got what was coming to them.At least that’s the Ron Paul way of thinking.”Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 10:05 AM
Total bullshit from the bullshit artist. What dose Iraq have to do with 9/11?
“Can you not address the fact that Bush has not followed the constitution?”
If that was the case, the Supreme Court would be all over it.
They are not.
Kans,Specifically what rights have I lost?First and foremost, I’ve lost the right to bitch at countries that detain and torture innocent Americans.I’ve lost the right to look down on countries that use their secret police to spy on their fellow countrymen.And I’ve lost the right to scorn dictatorships who “disappear” their citizens and the citizens of other countries, denying them the right to trial or counsel before a summary execution.What other rights I’ve personally lost are classified, and I won’t know about it until I find myself on an unmarked plane to Kazakhstan.
I must disagree, Kansas. After the Germans invaded Poland, the chicken monkey in America refused to allow us to go help. It was “their” problem. We’ve always had them.Posted by: fleettwood | September 07, 2007 at 10:09 AM
And the breaking of the constitution shouldn’t bother anyone. It is ‘their’ problem. Thanx for making my point fleet.
So what part of your Constitutional rights have you lost Sol?
Name them.
Remember, you are not a terrorist, at least I don’t think you are.
Name one of these referenced lost constitutional entities that you have personally lost Sol.
Name any American that has lost these constitutional entities Sol?
Let’s see a list of those who have lost any constitutional rights and were not challenged in court if they thought they had lost these rights?
Name them, I’ll wait.
“SolDevVB” –
To use “Kansas’” logic, most people would need to remove a few brain lobes.
What’s so amazing is to see self-proclaimed “conservatives” so panty-stained by fear they’re willing to cede constitutional rights to at authoritarian state.
I’m not typing this again for, what, the fifth time now. Here’s a link instead
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-97.html#comment-81931945
Again Sol,
Out of that list, name those liberties you claim to have lost. Name any American that has lost these liberties.
Name them.
It’s a simple request.
You have claimed to have lost liberties personally and other Americans have lost these liberties.
Name the liberties you have personally lost and name those Americans who have lost liberties under your list.
If you can’t, it’s just another hyped up case of Liberal rhetoric.
All talk with no proof.
The challenge is to you as well LTP.
You have claimed to have lost liberties personally and other Americans have lost these liberties.
Name the liberties you have personally lost and name those Americans who have lost liberties under your list.
Name them LTP.
“Two countries under the stranglehold of terrorists leaders and dictatorships are on their way to Democracy.”
The Iraqi government is dissolving. The Taliban are back in power. Yippee.
“Terrorist training camps once in Afghanistan that were designed to kill Americans no longer exist.”Yes they do. They now reside in Iraq. They get to practice on live targets too. What an improvement.
“The heads of snakes (terrorist leaders) have been severed in Iraq and Afghanistan.”And replaced by how many? The activity sure hasn’t dropped off.
“The fact we have driven a wedge between the terrorist states of Syria and Iran is significant. Both are declared terrorist states and the world’s largest exporters of terrorism. They will no longer exercise a free path across the sands of Iraq to do their dirty deeds.”
WTF are you thinking? You wiffed on that one HARD !!!Syria and Iran said they were facing “numerous challenges”
Iran has vowed to back Syria against “challenges and threats” as both countries face strong US pressure.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4270859.stm
What is the current relationship between Syria and Iran?Many experts say geopolitical realities are bringing the two nations together in an opportunistic alliance. “http://www.cfr.org/publication/11122/
“For me, and hopefully some others, it is not the loss of a specific freedom that I currently enjoy that worries me. It is the precedent of taking away from any person any freedom constituionally given to them in the name of security.”
Exactly Brian. This whole “what specific freedoms have you lost” is a red herring and those who employ that bogus quesiton, know that. This issue is, if any American loses any constitutionally guarenteed freedoms that sets the stage for any Amersican to lose such freedoms.
The constitution shredding by this administration is slowly, but surely, being corrected:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090601438.html?hpid=topnews
You have claimed to have lost liberties personally and other Americans have lost these liberties.Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 10:29 AM
AGAIN, post where I said that Kansas.
And again, please show me where the president has the authority to not recognize these issues in the constitution.
You try and try and try to get me to say ‘I personally lost’ but I see you conveniently left out that the constitution has been BROKEN.
America lost when Bush broke the constitution. If you can’t understand that, try to do some research on what it means to be an American and why the constitution was drafted in the first place.
I’ve been fortunate enough to have travelled the world quite a bit. Even though cultures around the world vary quite a bit and in many cases because of religion they are not compatible, there are several things I’ve observed:
Mommas everywhere love their babies. They mourn when they lose them.
People want to live in peace, even though some cultures are willing to sacrifice freedoms to obtain that peace.
Fathers are proud of their sons and want a better life for them than they had.
The surge in Iraq is working. We are starting to win the people over. We must demostrate to them that we have the resolve to stay the course.
How do I know we are having sucess in Iraq? Because the domcrats in Congress are gettin frantic. Unable to cope with the facts of the Patreas report next week they are conducting a campaign of character assasination on anyone that dares tell the truth about our progress.
Hank
“The surge in Iraq is working.”
Hank, the so-called “surge” is working fine for the murdering bastards in Israel, not the rest of the sane world and if you’ve traveled around you should know that.
“The Iraqi government is “dissolving. The Taliban are back in power. Yippee.”Posted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 10:44 AM
The Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan? Are you losing it Sol?
=======”Exactly Brian. This whole “what specific freedoms have you lost” is a red herring and those who employ that bogus quesiton, know that. This issue is, if any American loses any constitutionally guarenteed freedoms that sets the stage for any Amersican to lose such freedoms.”Posted by: Steven Davis | September 07, 2007 at 10:46 AM
Okay, Steven Davis, explain how the loss of habeus corpus applies to American citizens. Remember it was passed under the Military Commissions Act, which does not apply to Americans.=================
So Sol, what you are saying that all these acts as applied to terrorist activity and meant to protect the American public is somehow distorting the Constitution because it tracks down terrorists.
Do you support protecting terrorists Sol?
That’s the way I read it.
But since you agree with Ron Paul and blame the people in the World Trade center because why we were attacked, it is not surprising.
Those 3000 people in the WTC, didn’t need to live anyway right Sol? They were just in the way of Liberal talking points.
“What freedoms have YOU lost,” sneer the reich-wingers.
First of all, money equals freedom. If you don’t believe it, try being “free” without money.
Every day, I and the vast majority of Americans lose freedom, because our gov’t allows big corporations to TAX us without representation.
Halliburton, Bechtel, Kellogg Brown & Root, CACI, Blackwater and all the others working in Iraq have “no bid” contracts. They get billions of dollars. But no one is allowed to know how much because it is “classified.”
Why is it classified? Well, the reason is classified too. So we the people aren’t even allowed to know why we aren’t being told.
Obviously, there is no check of the free market competitiveness when contracts are not put out for bid.
Or take for instance the offshore oil and gas reserves. That wealth belongs to every single American. But only the big oil companies are reaping a windfall profit exploiting it. Big oil multinational have been allowed to dig our black gold without paying us anything, in fact the gov’t SUBSIDIZES them to steal it from us.
Sh*t, no one the oligarchs want to steal Iraq’s oil from the Iraqis. They do the same thing to US every damn day.
These big multinational companies act as their own soverign economic states.
HMO’s for instance are given carte blanc to decide WHO LIVES AND DIES based on a profit motive.
Not funding my surgery for pancreatic cancer is certainly taking away my freedom, is it not?
Personally, “Kansas,” my 1st Amendment right to “peaceable assembly” has been denied when I have attempted to protest against George WMD Bush.
Jose Padilla was denied his right of habeas corpus for over three years before pressure on the Gonzalez DoJ forced his constitual criminal trial. Padilla is a US citizen. George WMD Bush singlehandedly declared him an “enemy combatant,” without trial, the right to appeal or to consult counsel. When you cede that power to the Oval Office, *anyone* can be named an “enemy combatant.” Even you, “Kansas,” when President Hillary Clinton takes office.
The very nature of Black Ops — secret overseas prisons, torture, over a thousand CIA “rendition” flights, warrant-less wiretaps and searches — prevents a full accounting of this government’s constitutional abuses.
But even you, “Kansas,” are prevented from exercising your 2nd Amendment right to keep and bear arms when you fly on an airliner. Just what part of “shall not be infringed” do you no understand?
Your profound, willing ignorance of how George WMD Bush has stripped away your constitutional protections for liberty is sad to watch, “Kansas.”
So you are looking for a paycheck eh Capn?
Not getting payed? Are you on the dole of the government? Getting those welfare benefits are you Capn?
When did you become indigent and just what made you get there Capn?
You cant even bring a bottle of water or a pepsi on a plane
Hank Price,
We know the surge is failing because General Petraeus has been reduced to making assertions about drops in civilian casualities that depend on excluding certain classes of casualites–like people killed by our new Sunni allies in Iraq, or people killed during intra-sectarian fighting.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/05/AR2007090502466.html?hpid=topnews
General Petraeus then “pacifies” the Dora Market in Baghdad, pays the merchants to stay open, and uses it as the showplace to garner the support of visiting Congressment and Senators.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_09/011993.php
For Wingnuts, accurately reporting what General Petraeus is up to = “character assassination.”
However, Hank Price, you’re WAY behind on spin. Isn’t the latest ploy to ignore the benchmarks by painting progress as a ‘bottom-up’ phenomenon that has brought Sunni tribal leaders over to the U.S. side?
The “Surge” is a lie and a fraud. It’s all that slavish and obedient Bush Acolytes such as Hank Price have left.
I don’t carry firearms at all LTP, so I have lost no rights there.
Peaceable assembly LTP? Since when have you been prevented. Did you accidentally get too close to the security perimeter?
I did that once when Clinton came to Oklahoma while I was visiting and was told to step out of the area. My rights weren’t violated, it was part of protecting the President of which I agreed. They didn’t need me messing up their ability to protect the President, regardless of who the President was.
warrant-less wiretaps and searches?
The NSA has been doing sweeps for years, you people are really clueless aren’t you? This also happened under the Clinton administration. To prevent terrorist activity, yes surveillance is indeed necessary.
What are you afraid of LTP? Are you a terrorist?
I have no fears of being labeled an enemy combatant. Why should I become an enemy of the United States? I’m certainly not going to fight against it.
Weak argument LTP, let’s hear something realistic.
I smell “fear” amongst the Libs. :)
Elect Ron Paul and all the damage the Neocons and Zionists and AIPAC and PNAC and Israel has caused America will be solved and our troops will stop dying and the united States will stop creating enemies.
We have better things to do than what the Zionist-Jews have in mind.
Who elected them?
Kansas
What you smell is your underwear.
It’s time for a change.
“Zionists and AIPAC and PNAC and Israel”
Seig Heil, pig bastard.
The smell is often confused Ed. Libs do smell like rotting underwear fecal matter.
You’ve got that backwards, with a history to prove it.
More in the “what freedoms have you lost” Department
The Bill of Rights
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE PEACEABLY TO ASSEMBLE
*****
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070906/pl_afp/usiraqdemo_070906213528
Police break up anti-war meeting in Washington Thu Sep 6, 5:35 PM ETWASHINGTON (AFP) – Mounted police charged in to break up an outdoor press conference and demonstration against the Iraq war in Washington on Thursday, arresting three people, organizers and an AFP reporter said.
“The police suppressed the press conference. In the middle of the speeches, they grabbed the podium” erected in a park in front of the White House for the small gathering, Brian Becker, national organizer of the ANSWER anti-war coalition, told AFP.
“Then, mounted police charged the media present to disperse them,” Becker said.
The charge caused a peaceful crowd of some 20 journalists and four or five protestors to scatter in terror, an AFP correspondent at the event in Lafayette Square said. No one appeared to have been hurt.
Three people — Tina Richards, the mother of a marine who did two tours of duty in Iraq; Adam Kokesh, a leader of the Iraq Veterans Against the War group; and lawyer Ian Thompson, who is an organizer for ANSWER in Los Angeles — were arrested, Becker said.
The ANSWER coalition is trying to rally support for an anti-war demonstration in Washington that is due to take place on September 15.
Last month, the movement was threatened with a fine of at least 10,000 dollars unless it removed posters in the city announcing the September 15 march.
fleetwood,
Given your authority-worship and fascist aspirations, you’re hardly in a position to call anyone else a Nazi.
It appears to me that the lefties hate anything resembling good news from Iraq.
Not only are they busy spinning good news bad like a spider on too much caffeine, they spin anticipated news preemptively.
But there is some logic in what Fleetwood says.
The fascists never attack their own . . .
And stop playing the “Hitler Card” you antiquated Jerk.
“Last month, the movement was threatened with a fine of at least 10,000 dollars unless it removed posters in the city announcing the September 15 march.”
They should call Nancy Pelosi. She’s not doing anything else that I’ve heard of lately. Maybe she could have a hearing on it.
Yeah Capn, the ability to protest is important isn’t it?
————————On March 22, 2007 several Code Pink protestors were arrested outside the office of Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi.————————August 24, 2006, Congressman Conyers agreed to meet with some Code Pink activists to discuss the impeachment of George Bush. When they showed up they were arrested in the hallway with Conyer’s knowledge.
The Arctic ice cap is melting faster than scientists had expected and will shrink 40 percent by 2050 in most regions, with grim consequences for polar bears, walruses and other marine animals, according to government researchers.
The Arctic sea ice will retreat hundreds of miles farther from the coast of Alaska in the summer, the scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration concluded. That will open up vast waters for fishermen and give easier access to new areas for oil and gas exploration. It is also likely to mean an upheaval in species, bringing new predators to warmer waters and endangering those that depend on ice.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/06/AR2007090602499.html?hpid=sec-nation
But it’s NOT because of global warming!
La, la la, la la, la, la!
(Whistles past graveyard)
This should give cosmos and the troll something to argue about all night.
Kansas – Yesterday you said you could not argue about what benchmarks were or were not met because it was not public knowledge. Today, you are asking people to give names of those whose rights have been violated, when one of the problems is that we are not being told IF our rights are being violated. That IS one of the violations against our rights.
Outlander, you ignorant slut.
I would be thrilled if we got good news from Iraq.
Then we could stop losing brave soldiers every day there and stop spending 3 BILLION A WEEK.
We we lefties don’t like is getting lied to.
For instance, the surge has reduced American casualities, true or false.
FALSE.
http://icasualties.org/oif/Cumulative.aspx
See the graph at the top of the page. The cumulative totals of coalition troops shows virtually no sign of dropping off.
The line varies hardly at all from a steady 40 degree line.
If anything, the graph shows that we lost more soldiers during the surge and now the rate is returning to the average.
Job creation in the United States came to a standstill in August, according to a Labor Department report today, as the worsening housing market led employers to sharply slow hiring.
The nation lost 4,000 jobs in August, the first time employment has shrunk since August 2003. Economists had expected a gain of about 125,000 jobs.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090700794.html?hpid=topnews
And so, it begins….
You consider “good news from Iraq” as being “fewer soldiers have been killed to day.”
Wow. Now aren’t we all impressed?
Ron Paul will stop this nonsense cold in it’s tracks.
XXX,
Yeah, saw that. Here’s a Landsat picture from last September that illustrates the trend.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060914-arctic-ice.html
Kansas–
Don’t change the grounds of the debate (like you always do).
You didn’t ask what IMPORTANT freedoms have you lost.
For instance, the reich-wing’s cherished freedom to own an unregistered handgun is not at all an important freedom to me.
You asked what freedom I have lost.
“Importance” has nothing to do with it.
The Constitution says nothing about the right to assemble “if it’s important.”
Kansas, why do you and your Repuke thug friends HATE the Constitution?
Bit slow on the draw today; my link referred to the accelerated Arctic ice melt.
I love the Constitution Capn.
My stance and rights are still the same as they have been all my life.
I have lost no liberties and my Constitutional rights are the same as they always have been.
Unless you can point Capn, what Constitutional rights I have lost, then your argument is moot.
Umm.. CapnDipsh*t, the surge is still going on. It was supposed to have resulted in more American deaths, but we ended up with less. Good news? Yes. Spin it bad? You bet.
See how it works?
Thanks for the link CF2K.
It appears that the following statement appears in that article you linked.
“Ice wasn’t lost from all areas equally. The east Arctic Ocean lost 50 percent of its perennial ice. Much of the ice was pushed by winds and other factors into the western part of the ocean, where the perennial ice sheet actually grew.”
Like a glass of water and ice on a titled table, the ice has migrated to one side and now there is more ice on one side than the other. Omigosh! Everyone panic!
Has your phone been tapped? Has anyone entered your house uninvited?
How do you know?
XXXGood link on lost jobs. While I hate to see it, any time between now and the election is good timing if we have to have a recession. With a little help, that’ll put the Republican Buggers out of business for the next 20 or so years.
Sorry Sol, I’m not one to have delusional paranoid irrational fears like yourself.
Perhaps you need to reshape your tin foil hat. I think you are getting fuzzy reception.
I just showed you, Kansas, and you’re too obtuse to acknowledge it.
Peaceful and peaceable protestors were run over roughshod by horses and arrested for exercising their constitutional rights.
If I had been in DC, I would have been there, and I would likely have been arrested.
That’s a clear violation of the Constitution.
You can’t profess to “love the Contstitution” and then use it for toilet paper, Kansas.
BTW, Kansas, since you and Fleettwood don’t mind the government compiling information on you, why don’t you open your wallet and tell us on the WEBlog every piece of information that’s in there.
Your name and address, credit card numbers, social security number etc. etc.
Why don’t you summarize the last couple of days of conversation you had on your cell phone?
You’ve got nothing to hide, remember?
So what about those Code Pinks arrested because Pelosi and Conyers wanted them arrested after agreeing to meet with them?
Did their rights get violated Capn?
See how that works?
Maybe you are just too obtuse to acknowledge that your Dems are violating the rights of peaceable protesters. :)
No time to post again, but special thanks to CF2k for the update from Riverbend.
Has the NSA conducted warrantless phone taps? Have the CIS, NSA, and FBI conducted warrantless searches?
How about I adjust my tin foil hat if you try your hardest to grow at LEAST one more brain cell. Seems the one you have is JUST about to die from boredom
.
NEWS FLASH, KANSAS–
Corporately owned and paid-for Democrats are sleaze bags just like the Repukes.
The difference is they are nucking futs.
The DEMS AREN’T as nucking futs as the Republicans, I meant . . .
CIS = CIA for the uninformed ( :-> )
Besides, without a link, I can’t believe anything YOU say, Kansas.
It’s like that BS post yesterday, that “half of the 48 million uninsured are illegal aliens.”
Given that the number of illegal aliens is estimated at on 12 million, it couldn’t possibly be HALF of 48 million, could it.
Link it or shut up.
why don’t you open your wallet and tell us on the WEBlog every piece of information that’s in there.
Your name and address, credit card numbers, social security number etc. etc.
Why don’t you summarize the last couple of days of conversation you had on your cell phone?
You’ve got nothing to hide, remember?Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 07, 2007 at 11:54 AM
Should I report Capn for promoting identity theft on the WE Blog? he has done it many times and I think he is deliberately trying to out people so they can be ruined financially and otherwise.
Perhaps I should report this matter to the FBI.
After all, Capn keeps asking me to do this.
P.S. Just skimming over the responses to Kansas and fleet, I gotta say: hey, folks, ya JUST DON’T GET IT!
They are asking what freedom YOU PERSONALY havelost RIGHT NOW–at this SECOND.
So unless you’re being pulled away from the keyboard by a stormtrooper RIGHT NOW, furious typing away that last sentence, you haven’t lost any freedoms!
Got it?
Don’t ya just love fascist “reasoning”?
“Perhaps I should report this matter to the FBI.”
I encourage you to report me to the FBI, Kansas. Hell, I DEMAND it.
They won’t be looking at me . . . they’ll be looking at the crack-pot that “reported” me.
Joseph Antos, American Enterprise Institute, looks inside the Cenus numbers, because they are very misleading.
uninsured who are NOT U.S. CITIZENS IS 45% of the 47 million.
Broken down by age, 18 – 24 years old – 29.3% of the 47 million.
25 – 35 years old – 26.9% of the 47 million.
Broken down by salary, $75,000 or more per year – 8.5% of the 47 million.
Did you get that? Almost half of the uninsured in America are not U.S. citizens.
Also, Dr. Antos and others have stated that the amount of uninsured maybe be even less than reported because the medicare and medicaid insured figures may be off somewhere between 2-9 million.
The reason for this is because when the people fill out the survey in the hospital to get care, they select the answer “NO” if you have additional health care coverage such as medicaid or medicare to avoid answering additional questions on the lengthy form.
Dr. Antos bio:
Joseph R. Antos is the Wilson H. Taylor Scholar in Health Care and Retirement Policy at the American Enterprise Institute and an adjunct professor in the School of Public Health at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is also a commissioner on the Maryland Health Services Cost Review Commission. His recent research focuses on the economics of health policy, including Medicare reform, health insurance regulation, and the uninsured. He has testified before Congress on federal health policy and has been quoted in the media, including the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Business Week, CNN, and C-SPAN.
Of course, Capn knows more than Dr. Antos.
You posted a quote, Kansas.
That’s not a link.
I do know the difference between a quote and a link.
Sheesh . . .
No Rage,
I’m asking what personal liberties they have ever lost.
No one can seem to give me an answer.
Then I asked, what personal liberties can they point out that any American has lost under that “list” they came up with.
Of course, the Capn came up with some lame protest thing which involved local police and some protesters. One – count it – use your middle finger – one. And the protest break up had nothing to do with what laws were passed under the Bush Administration, so the count is back to zero.
I’m still waiting…
Kansas, Outie, Fleet,
OK, y’all think we are at war – with a military tactic – terror. Since we are at war, we no longer have to follow the constitution. Invasion of privacy is peachy keen (warrantless wire taps, intercepting e-mail, warrantless searches). Habeas Corpus shmabieis corpus. If – I – say you are a terrorist, then so be it. Don’t have to prove it to anyone. Torture? Sure thing. I mean we as Americans have that right. Don’t we? FISA courts? Who needs em. After all, the president gets to make up the rules as he goes. National ID cards? Sure thing. The government SHOULD know everything about me.
These are the points you are supporting. Lets see you support them w/o saying ‘What have you personally lost?’ What I have lost is trust in the Government to follow the constitution.
So why stop with what is listed. 2nd ammendmet? Screw it. Turn in all your guns. Third amendment? What ever. We are going to store uranium rounds in your pantry and Sgt. Snuffy here is going to guard them. Don’t mess with Sgt. Snuffy !!! Fourth amendment? Well we covered that one already.
Why stop with what’s already happened? Why not just run over all of them? After all, Bush says its OK, it must be OK.
It’s from a Fox News Video presented by Molly Hannigan, where Dr. Antos was referenced. It is no longer up on their Website, but references can be found around the web.
One correction made by Dr. Antos about the Fox News program was:
“…about 45% of the 47 million uninsured are non-citizens; and that it is unclear how many of those are illegal immigrants.”
So your saying that the “12 million” illegal immigrants that Michael Moore used in his lie of the 45 million total is okay then Capn?
I really don’t get the point Kansas and fleetwood are trying to make.Is it that if a person cannot list a right they have personally lost due to the Patriot Act, then the Patriot Act is good and we should not complain about it?
Is it more like if something does not happen directly to you, personally, STFU about it?
What is your point?
Even more than that brian, I challenged them to name ANY AMERICAN that has a lot under their list.
They can’t do it and refuse to give me an example, because their argument is weak and without merit.
lot=loss
“Is it more like if something does not happen directly to you, personally, STFU about it?”
Yep, that’s it. If you’re not a jew, you don’t need to speak up!
Sol, your perceived lost of trust is not the same thing as losing any rights.
It is merely a perception.
Since most reasonable Americans have not perceived to have lost any rights, then your perception must be skewed by your limited ideological view.
“Even more than that brian, I challenged them to name ANY AMERICAN that has a lot under their list.”
Jose Padilla. Held for 5 years without charged, tortured, eventually charged with something else. They got a conviction, but it was for “conspiracy” and nothing to do with dirty bombs.
And if you think that “okay” because they eventually followed the rules and convicted the guy of something, well, fine, Kansas–see ya in five years, terrorist! (I have an anonymous phone call to make. . .)
Rage,I guess since any Patriot Act data gathered is secret, and the decision to declare someone an enemy combatant and hold them indefinitely in a prison or give them a rendition to Egypt to make them talk, Kansas would have no way to refute any charges of being a terrorist, nor any recourse to stop his detention.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/08/16/padilla.verdict/MIAMI, Florida (CNN) — Former Chicago gang member Jose Padilla was found guilty Thursday of supporting Islamic terrorism overseas.
Co-defendants Adham Hassoun and Kifan Jayyousi were also found guilty of the three counts charged: conspiracy to murder, kidnap, and maim people in a foreign country; conspiracy to provide material support for terrorists; and providing material support for terrorists.
Padilla was originally arrested on accusations that he planned to set off radioactive “dirty bombs” in the United States. Thursday’s convictions are not related to those accusations, and prosecutors did not present the “dirty bomb” plot to the jury.
A federal court jury in Miami deliberated for just under two days before handing down the verdict. Jurors declined to speak to the media. “They’ve had enough,” said court clerk Ivan Marchena.”
Padilla was taken into custody in Chicago as he stepped off a flight from Pakistan in 2002, and Bush declared him an “enemy combatant” and had him transferred to military custody. He was never charged as an “enemy combatant” and was eventually transferred from military to civilian custody where he was finally charged.
The Supreme Court ducked the chance to rule on the legality of Padilla’s military detention in 2006, arguing that the issue was moot after his transfer to civilian custody for the Miami trial.”
There you have it Rage. Padilla was found guilty by a jury of his peers.
The Supreme Court didn’t say that Padilla had lost any rights. Are you smarter than the Supreme Court Rage?
Good point, Rage.
I was thinking about Jose Padilla too. Now, the inevitable “but he was a terrorist” is about to begin.
Terrorists deserve a speedy trial too. Otherwise, how is one to ascertain that they ARE terrorists? Because Kansas or Fleetwood think they are?
BTW, the 12 million illegals is widely accepted:
“The number of illegal immigrants in the United States has grown to as many as 12 million, and they now account for about one in every 20 workers, a new estimate says. ”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-03-07-illegal-immigration_x.htm
There you have it folks, Secular Progressive Liberals support terrorist activity in the United States.
They have screamed loud and strong for the rights of terrorists and whine like little children when a terrorist is arrested as if they were being arrested.
Padilla was arrested after stepping off a plane from Pakistan after meeting with Al Qaeda there.
But the Liberals, the terrorists supporters thought Padilla’s rights were violated.
Why according to the Liberals, Padilla should have the right to set off nuclear devices in the United States. It’s his constitutional right you know!
Americans understand that the Zionists and Neocons have a death-grip on America.
Little is to be gained by citing more examples.
The candidates being offered-up are only going to make things worse, as each has offered the undying loyalty, not to America, but to AIPAC and Israel.
All, that is, with the exception of one: Dr. Ron Paul.
Either we unite as Americans from both parties { do not let the Zionists divide us } and work to get Ron Paul elected or things will only get worse.
The evil forces in this country are well organized and will stoop to any dirty trick to conquer America and they now control the MSM.
It will be an uphill battle, but true Americans have done it before and America has not come this far only to be given away to the highest bidder and biggest liar.
OK Kansas, I can see that you have failed to garner any more brain cells.
Let’s look at your straw man. The wire taps, emails, and searches were warrantless. Meaning there is no public record. How, unless a member of the NSA is one to provide a list of names?
The United States Armed Forces represent my country. They committed torture on other human beings. That affects me as a citizen of these United States.
Habeas Corpushttp://www.johntfloyd.com/comments/april/17a.htmKar was one of five Americans the Pentagon said last week it was holding among the more than 10,000 detainees in Iraq.http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/169828/us_military_releases_american_held_in_iraq/index.html
Habeas suit for American held without charge by US forces in Iraqhttp://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/07/habeas-suit-for-american-held-without.php
the Supreme Court held the Guantánamo prisoners and U.S. citizen Yaser Hamdi are entitled to contest their detention in federal courts.http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/5047
“The Supreme Court didn’t say that Padilla had lost any rights. Are you smarter than the Supreme Court Rage?”
Bullshit. It was the Supreme Court and other courts that FORCED the administration to give the man a trial.
I’ve READ the Padilla decision.
“Why according to the Liberals, Padilla should have the right to set off nuclear devices in the United States. It’s his constitutional right you know!
Posted by: Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 12:32 PM ”
That is bullshit and you know it.Your hyperbole belies your lack of argumentative substance.
I’ll clarify: Padilla was most a punt by the Supremes.
Kansas writes: “Secular Progressive Liberals support terrorist activity.”
RIGHT ON CUE!
You people are sooo predictable.
Of course, Kansas got that talking point straight from Rush’s ass . . . neither one of them are stupid enough to believe THAT, but it makes a great straw man to kick to pieces.
Progressive Liberals like me believe in the rule of law for everyone. Period.
If someone is a terrorist, prove it in a speedy trial. If you can’t prove it, then you got nothing.
Holding people indefinitely in prison without trial is a clear violation of the letter and the spirit of the Constitution.
The point the people like Kansas and fleetwood miss is the intermediary step in the judicial process.
I think everyone can agree that if a person is suspected of being a terrorist they should be arrested. I think everyone can agree that if a person is convicted of being a terrorist, they should be punished. (If anyone disagrees with these things, please state your case.)
The disagreement comes between the arrest and the punishment.
People like me think that after a person is arrested, regardless of the charge or the arresting authority, they should be able to fairly defend themselves. Preferably in the already existing judicial system we have here in the USA.People like Kansas and Fleetwood seem to think that arresting a person for being a terrorist or charging them with being a terrorist is good enough, end of story. They seem to think that the person should go straight from arrest to punishment.
Let’s make this fair and easy for Kansas.
Kansas, how and why are warrantless wiretaps legal?Please cite specifically the SCOTUS decision and or Congress’s decision.
I think the overall argument here is that terrorists do not deserve the protections emobodied in the constitution.
Most of us are not terrorists, so the “loss of liberties” are not something we should be fussing about unless we simply want to score political points against Bush.
Abraham Lincoln completely rode all over the constitution during his effort to win the Civil War. Since history has sided with Lincoln, his temporal disregard for certain constitutional rights during the war has been forgiven and in fact justified.
Should that happen for Bush? Only time will tell.Bush is fighting an uphill battle with public opinion not unlike Lincoln so his practices are going to criticized until history has its say.
Nice try Sol, however according to -
THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION
Article. I. Section 9. Clause 2:
” The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.”
Habeas Corpus is not a right, but a privilege.
And,
That right may be suspended in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the Public Safety may require it.
Terrorists are invading our land and our sovereign status.
You Liberals don’t even know what the Constitution says, yet you are screaming that you lost a right.
No rights were lost, habeas corpus never was a right, it is a privilege as stated in the Constitution.
Yup, you nailed it, Brian.
How do we know the prisoners at Guantanemo are terrorists? Why, because Gitmo is the prison for terrorists . . .
Asked and answered.
No need for actual proof that will stand up in court or anything.
We’re all supposed to be sooo scared of the terrorist boogey-men that we’ll just let people rot in prison without trial because someone somewhere suspects them of being terrorists.
“I think the overall argument here is that terrorists do not deserve the protections emobodied in the constitution.”
Great, rtl: See ya in 5 years, terrorist! (I have an anonymous phone call to make. . .)
“Terrorists are invading our land and our sovereign status.”
And who decides who is and isn’t a terrorist?
What about these folks?
http://www.johntfloyd.com/comments/april/17a.htmKar was one of five Americans the Pentagon said last week it was holding among the more than 10,000 detainees in Iraq.http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/169828/us_military_releases_american_held_in_iraq/index.html
Habeas suit for American held without charge by US forces in Iraqhttp://jurist.law.pitt.edu/gazette/2005/07/habeas-suit-for-american-held-without.php
the Supreme Court held the Guantánamo prisoners and U.S. citizen Yaser Hamdi are entitled to contest their detention in federal courts.http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/4/5047
“No rights were lost, habeas corpus never was a right, it is a privilege as stated in the Constitution.”
Ya really gotta love THIS! The Great Writ, reduced to a complementary mint.
What were those damned noblemen thinking in 1215, anyway?
WRONG AGAIN, KANSAS–
Man, his face must be so red.
SIXTH AMENDMENT IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS, A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT REAFFIRMED BY THE 14th AMENDMENT:
“In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defense.”
Again, I ask Kansas, why do you HATE the Constitution?
I think SIX YEARS without a trial is not “speedy” even by the reich-wing’s twisted definitions . . .
hmmmm,The surge is working.The earth is 6000 years old.Man used to ride on dinosaurs.The sun revolves around the earth.The earth is the center of the universe.The tooth fairy is real.
“Like a glass of water and ice on a titled table, the ice has migrated to one side and now there is more ice on one side than the other. Omigosh! Everyone panic!”
Posted by: the troll Kansas | September 07, 2007 at 11:49 AM
The ignorant troll Kansas should study this graph.http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaiceminimum/images/20070904_augtrend.jpg
And it’s not just the “area” of ice that is important.
http://nsidc.org/news/press/2007_seaiceminimum/20070810_index.html
“Changes in ice age and thicknessAnother aspect of the story for 2007 is the “memory” of the sea ice to changes over the past few decades. Specifically, there seems to have been a transition to younger, thinner ice beginning in the late 1970s. …
Replenishment of old, thick ice is essential to the maintenance and stability of the Arctic summer ice cover, since thinner ice requires less energy to completely melt out in summer than thicker ice.”
They’re eating into our academia.
“CHICAGO (AP) ? A DePaul University professor who has drawn criticism for accusing some Jews of improperly using the legacy of the Holocaust agreed Wednesday to resign immediately “for everybody’s sake.”University officials and political science professor Norman Finkelstein issued a joint statement announcing the resignation, which came as about a hundred protesters gathered outside the dean’s office to support him.Finkelstein was denied tenure in June after spending six years on DePaul’s faculty, and his remaining class was cut by DePaul last month.His most recent book, “Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History,” is largely an attack on Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz’s “The Case for Israel.” In his book, Finkelstein argues that Israel uses the outcry over perceived anti-Semitism as a weapon to stifle criticism.Dershowitz, who threatened to sue Finkelstein’s publisher for libel, urged DePaul officials to reject Finkelstein’s tenure bid.Finkelstein, the son of Holocaust survivors, said in the statement that he believes the tenure decision was “tainted” by external pressures, but praised the university’s “honorable role of providing a scholarly haven for me the past six years.”The school denied that outside parties influenced the decision to deny Finkelstein tenure. The school’s portion of the statement called Finkelstein “a prolific scholar and an outstanding teacher.”Finkelstein called that acknowledgment the most important part of the statement.”I felt finally I had gotten what was my due and that maybe it was time, for everybody’s sake, that I move on,” he said at a news conference that followed a morning rally staged by students and faculty who carried signs and chanted “stop the witch hunt.”Finkelstein said, “DePaul students rose to dazzling spiritual heights in my defense that should be the envy of and an example for every university in the United States.”The professor would not discuss financial terms of the resignation agreement, which he said was confidential, but noted that it does not bar him from speaking out about issues that concern him, including “the unfairness of the tenure process.”He also said he doesn’t know what he’ll do next, but came to realize before Wednesday “that the atmosphere had become so poisoned that it was virtually impossible for me to carry on at DePaul.”Dozens of supporters wearing T-shirts that read: “We Are All Professor Finkelstein” wondered about the long-term affects on the school.”I think there’s just going to be a long standing sentiment of an injustice here,” said Thomas Bellino, a 22-year-old student who has taken classes from Finkelstein. “I used to consider the president of DePaul, Father (Dennis) Holtschneider, sort of like a friend, someone who was aligned with my beliefs on academic freedom. But now I don’t think that anymore and I think much less of the administration.”
brian is beginning to get it now I think, albeit on a partial qualification.
Sol,
Let me ask you a question. Who owns the airwaves (radio, TV, microwave data, shortwave, cell phone.)
Ever hear of the FCC? Do they monitor and control what can and cannot be said on airwaves?
Out there in the ether, who owns that piece of data floating around in free space?
Having had his ass handed to him on the sixth amendment, Kansas desperately tries to change the subject . . .
The three words you’ll never see over Kansas’s nic-name: I was wrong.
“Kansas” is one of “them.”
Hey Capn, the U.S. has tried to send some of the GITMO detainees back to their homeland. Guess what? Their homelands don’t what these terrorists either and won’t accept them.
I think SIX YEARS without a trial is not “speedy” even by the reich-wing’s twisted definitions . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 07, 2007 at 12:51 PM
So Padilla was arrested in 2001 Capn or is another one of your lies or should I say ideological driven distortions? :)
The Libs on this blog are really arm flailing now, they can’t argue with facts presented to them. :)
Okay, FIVE years.
I was wrong.
See how it works, Kansas? You make a mistake and then you say, I was wrong.
Kansas is the “black knight” in that Monty Python movie.
“C’mon and fight me, ya wimp.” He gets his arm cut off. “I’ll beat you with my left arm, I will!” Gets it cut off. “I’ll kick you to death, you coward!” Gets both legs cut off.
“Come back and finish me off, or don’t you have the guts? I spit on you . . . ”
He wins these encounters only in his fevered imagination. Illustrates the entire wing-nut problem with reality.
One of my liberties lost is my pursuit of happiness.
Hey XXX,
All this ice-melting-the-polar-bears-are-going-to-drown BS is really starting to confuse me.
If it as taken polar bears millions of years to evolve into the ice-flow-surfing-seal, eating-machines that they are then obviously they have survived/adapted to many ice ages/heating periods/polar shifts in the past. Why worry about them?
If the Artic ice decreases by 40% that will open a northern sea passage allowing us to get more toys from China easier. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Hank
Yeah, we’re all doomed.
Wait, where’s my passport?….
Heh, nice spin, Hank.
Considering that global warming isn’t happening to you people, how can you now call it a “good thing”?
Something that wasn’t happening apparently IS happening, eh, Hank?
Well, that’s a start . . .
Having had his ass handed to him on the sixth amendment, Kansas desperately tries to change the subject . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 07, 2007 at 12:57 PM
No, that’s your interpretation Capn. Padilla was held as an enemy combatant for three and a half years. He had no sixth amendment rights while interred as an enemy combatant.
His status was later changed by courts and he was held in prison, where his full constitutional rights and privileges were restored.
Padilla is a terrorist, he plotted and planned to be a terrorist, he met with terrorists and he was convicted as a terrorist.
So Capn, you support terrorists like Jose Padilla?
You want to champion their cause to kill Americans?
Capn does not know the difference between habeas corpus (first amendment) and sixth amendment.
Notice how he slipped that into the argument and claimed a hollow victory.
The subject was habeas corpus.
Capn has an attention span problem.
Let’s all flee America while we still the RIGHT to do so! Come on lets go before the gestapo take over!!! I am right behind you…
Dear Hank,
‘Polar Bears Face Serious ThreatBut scientists say there is time to save them, and the polar ice caps’http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2007&m=January&x=20070104134253mlenuhret0.3304254
‘Arctic sea ice on the wane: Now what?”http://nasadaacs.eos.nasa.gov/articles/2006/2006_seaice.html
“NSIDC scientist Mark Serreze said, “The reduction in summer sea ice is a bad omen for animals like the polar bear, which need sea ice for their survival.” ”
‘Polar bears drown as ice shelf melts’http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article767459.ece
‘Drowning polar bears worry researchers’http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=2246
‘Scientists Sound Warning on Global Warming’http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Science/story?id=1407585“A survey by the U.S. Mineral Management Service has recorded elevated numbers of polar bears drowning. Some have been found swimming far out in the warming Arctic sea as the sea ice pulls back farther from land and the bears try to swim to shore.”
Hey Captain!
Did you notice the “If” in my post?
I admit to nothing!
Well, there was that time in Puerto Rico in 1964. . . .
Hank
I cant believe you guys have generated another 170 posts of “f you, no f YOU” with kansas.
Why do you guys enable him?
Kansas (as a legless, armless torso on the ground):
“I kicked your ass. Do you hear me?! You’re running away! Come back here and fight, ya wimp!”
You are beginning to sound like WSClark now Capn. Claim victory in an argument when you went off on a completely different tangent than the group.
Clueless he is.
hey KFG,
Because your buddies argue rhetoric and not facts is the reason they get their butts kicked on a daily basis, then go whine about it.
Evidently KFG, you do not like seeing your Lib friends getting their butts kicked. I can understand that. :)
Dear Hank,
The Northwest Passage is NOW open.
And a great collection of global warming graphs that you will want to ignore.http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/graphic-evidence/
The adult reasonable thinking people of America must STOP this nonsense before it goes further!
Iraq is but the beginning, a pretense for a wider conflict. Donald Kagan, a central member of PNAC, sees America establishing permanent military bases in Iraq after the war. This is purportedly a measure to defend the peace in the Middle East, and to make sure the oil flows. The nations in that region, however, will see this for what it is: a jump-off point for American forces to invade any nation in that region they choose to. The American people, anxiously awaiting some sort of exit plan after America defeats Iraq, will see too late that no exit is planned.
As the eagle spreads its wings, our rhetoric and their resistance will become more agitated and dangerous.
Many people, of course, will die. They will die from war and from want, from famine and disease. At home, the social fabric will be torn in ways that make the Reagan nightmares of crack addiction, homelessness and AIDS seem tame by comparison.
This is the price to be paid for empire, and the men of PNAC who now control the fate and future of America are more than willing to pay it. For them, the benefits far outweigh the liabilities.
“Padilla is a terrorist, he plotted and planned to be a terrorist, he met with terrorists and he was convicted as a terrorist.
So Capn, you support terrorists like Jose Padilla?”
Trained by the CIA. Just peachy.
No, I see one stupid asshole being enabled by other stupid assholes. If you think you are winning anything kansas, it is the idiot poster award. But I see some others who fall for your need for attention are also in the running. They are totally at your mercy, apparantly, and cant resist a stupid food fight with you.
No matter what nic they are using. You all deserve each other.
Thanks for the links cosmos!
But I’ve got GOOGLE too.
Here’s one of my favorites!
http://sitewave.net/news/s49p1835.htm
Enjoy!
Hank
So lindainks, no compassion for the over 40,000 who died from traffic deaths each year?
Or do you like one kind of death over the other?
Poor kfg, the lonely farm girl lashing out in frustration because of the emptiness in her life.
Trained by the CIA. Just peachy.
Posted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 01:27 PM
Translation: “I watched the Jason Bourne trilogy last night and now I know all there is to know about the US Government.”
It used to be conservative to expect the government to respect the rights of individuals.
Now “Kansas” has moved beyond that.
Call someone a “terrorist” and automatically an autocratic government can deny the God-given rights the Constitution of the United States of America tried desperately for over 200 years to guarantee.
Nope. Now “Kansas” and George WMD Bush can declare you are a “terrorist” and all bets are off.
Sorry, “Kansas.” That’s not America.
Jose Padilla finally got a constitutional trial by jury, with the right to face his accusers, with the right to legal counsel, with the right to trial by jury, with the right to (after three years) habeas corpus… and he was found guilty! Imagine that! The Constitution finally got a chance to work! And it worked!
But that’s not good enough for you, is it, “Kansas?” No, you want a government that can arrest and detain and try and convict anyone with absolutely no restraint on the power of government.
By protecting their Constitutional rights, the first attackers of the World Trade Center are sitting in the pokey for the rest of their lives. After stripping all Americans of their Constitutional rights, George WMD Bush “isn’t all that concerned about Osama bin Laden.”
Which is the better approach to democracy, “Kansas?” Which approach has been more effective, in your brain-addled opinion?”
As you advocate corrupting basic Constitutional rights, you’re building a case against yourself as a traitor; a terrorist against a constitutional United States of America.
I guess it’ll be okay if we cart you off to Gitmo without any judicial review. After all, that’s what you’re advocating.
If America means anything at all it’s about restraint of government power. If you believe in America, you have to believe individuals have rights that transcend the power of government. If America means anything, there has to be a standard by which guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of peers.
They system doesn’t always work the way we want it. But O.J. got away with it and America still survives. There may very well be mitigating circumstances involving Leonard Peltier’s crimes, but a constitutional jury trial put him in Leavenworth and there he stays.
If you are a patriotic American, you lose the right to write off the rights of individuals simply by declaring them “terrorists.” If you are a patriotic American, the government has to meet all the standards of constitutional rights, even to those who least deserve them.
It’s not about “granting” rights
to malcreants; it’s about making sure the government doesn’t get too big for its britches.
Conservative, y’know?
Nah. You’ve forgotten all about conservatism.
Hey farmgirl!
I heard through the grapevine that you closed your resturant. If it’s true I’m sorry I never made it there.
I was close several times but never at the right time.
We didn’t get any sandplums this year but Joyce has a gallon of frozen juice left from two years ago in the freezer. I’ll save you a joar if she makes some this year.
Hank
What a waste of posts LTP.
It was proven in court by CIA testimony that Jose Padilla was a terrorist, involved with terrorists, met with terrorists and planned terrorist plots.
Of course, if you want to support that kind of activity LTP, be my guest on being a terrorist lover.
Dear Hank,
Thanks for the link. It’s definitely your kind of misinformation.
“Carbon dioxide has never driven temperature. In fact, the evidence shows that historically, temperature has driven CO2 .”
1) Historically, CO2 rises lagged the temperature rises, because other factors triggered the warming trend.But the increase in CO2 did AMPLIFY the warming.
2) This time, humans are causing the CO2 increase, and causing the warming trend.
3) CO2 seems to have driven temperature in the past.http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/wethring.htm“The rise of the Appalachian Mountains may have caused a major ice age approximately 450 million years ago, an Ohio State University study has found.
The weathering of the mountains pulled carbon dioxide (CO2) from the atmosphere, causing the opposite of a greenhouse effect — an “icehouse” effect….It also reinforces the notion that CO2 levels in the atmosphere are a major driver of Earth’s climate.”—–
BTW Hank… Michael Crichton is not a climate scientist, and Dr. Naomi Oreskes’ study is correct.
I sure am glad it is Friday.I am going to finish some tile work this weekend and the relax.
Anyone have fun plans?
the = then
Cosmos,
Here is your climate savior being a hypocrite once again:
http://www.drudgereport.com/gore.htm
Dear cosmos,
I know Crichton is not a scientist but he’s smarter than you!
Hank
Hey brian,
Just do some honey dos and work with my dogs. I have to move some stock around and get another load of hay for the winter. But I’ll pace myself and shouldn’t be too much of a strain!
Next weekend we’ll be in Salina from Wednesday night to Sunday night at the dog show and herding trials. Friday is our day to work the dogshow and we help set up on Thursday. Saturday and Sunday I’ll be helping at the herding trial. I’m on the herding committee.
I don’t envy your tile work. I put in about 850 square feet in the basement and it’s not a job I’d do again. I’d work midshift at a QuickTrip until I could afford to have someone do it for me next time.
Hank
Trained by the CIA. Just peachy.
Posted by: SolDevVB | September 07, 2007 at 01:27 PM
Translation: “I watched the Jason Bourne trilogy last night and now I know all there is to know about the US Government.”Posted by: rfl | September 07, 2007 at 01:33 PM
*******************************************
Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally “the database”, was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.[36]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
***************************************Translation, I did more research then regurgitate Faux News.
dow jones industrial average off 253 points. Glad my social security benefits are not tied to the stock market.
Annie Moose,
Meanwhile most people will see 20 year returns of around 20 percent on their money in the market while you will get less than 2 percent….
Amen to that Nathan.
It kills me that the market is down for a day and folks freak. Are you dumb enough to pull your money whe the price is down? Were you only in the market fr a day?
Is that a negative return Nathan?
Nathan,
A person who does what he suggests other people should do is not a “hypocrite”.
Cosmos,
So are you saying that flying around in a private jet is reducing CO2 emmisions?
I think I am beginning to understand you now.
You say you are all for stopping Global warming, as long as it doesn’t effect your liberal leaders.
Typical.
Reduce carbon emissions as much as possible, and offset what you can’t.
Cosmos,
Let me translate that last part for everyone else:
“…and offset what you can’t.”
Translation:
If you are rich enough to afford it, you can live in your 28,000 sq/ft home, drive an SUV, and fly around in your private jet, as long as you buy carbon offsets. All the rest of you peons stop driving your SUV’s, use only 2 sheets of toilet paper, and change your light bulbs…
And if the wind farm blocks your view, don’t worry we can find somewhere else to build it, wouldn’t want to inconveinence the liberal elite with those things like saving the environment.
Nathan…
You seem to have a “problem” with rich people.
Gore drives a hybrid, and usually flies commercial. Are the airlines going to cancel their flights, if he does’t fly???
‘Ex-VP no airport VIP’http://www2.jsonline.com/news/nat/jun02/51090.asp
Cosmos,
I have a problem with liberals telling me to stop driving SUV’s to save the environment while they still drive them and live in 28,000 sg/ft homes.
I have a problem with liberals like Al Gore acting like they are the saviors of the envrionment while flying around in private jets.
They are no longer called limousine liberals rather Gulf Stream liberals.
“I’d work midshift at a QuickTrip until I could afford to have someone do it for me next time.HankPosted by: Hank Price | September 07, 2007 at 02:25 PM”
Lol, it certainly is a bigger task than I thought. Redoing tub surround seemed easier and faster than it turned out to be.Good luck in Salina, that sounds like a fun weekend coming up.
Oh, Lord, “Kansas.”
Did you really write:
“It was proven in court by CIA testimony that Jose Padilla was a terrorist, involved with terrorists, met with terrorists and planned terrorist plots.”
Perhaps you missed my point.
It was “proven in court” only after Jose Padilla was held inomuncado for three years, held in a secret prison, perhaps subjected to torture, never allowed legal counsel or his constitutional right *as a citizen of the United States* to habeas corpus.
And maybe — just possibly — his constituional rights were somehow restored after three years of incarceration… guess what? Once his constitutional rights were restored, he was still found guilty!
Ray!!! The Constitution of the United States really works!
Ah, but you, “Kansas” just hate that.
How ’bout we just cart your ass off to Gitmo for three years or so until President Clinton II or President Kucinich or President Romney gets around to deciding if, in fact, you might deserve your constitutioinal right to defend yourself in a court of law.
If (and I know this is a stretch for you, “Kansas”) political partisanship is removed from the equation, the only *constitutional* approach to this issue has to limit the power of the federal government in favor of the individual’s constitutional rights.
The Constitution of the United States of America isn’t about power bestowed to the federal government, it’s about the rights retained by individuals. That’s about as *conservative* as the argument gets.
And yet, here you are, “Kansas,” advocating a government that can decree guilt by fiat. Even when faced with terrorists who’ve been faced with constitutional prosecution and trials and have been found guilty, you want to assume guilt without trial, without counsel, without the essential protections the Bill of Rights guarantees the accused.
Yours is a Lynch Mob mentality, “Kansas.” “It turned out he was guilty, so the trial was unnessary.” How proud you must be, “Kansas.”
I don’t like just a little bit that O.J. Simpson was found Not Guilty. But that’s how things work in America. I don’t like just a little bit that the Supreme Court handed the 2000 election to George WMD Bush despite votes to the contrary. But I accepted the authority of the SCOTUS and have lived with it.
You show up on this forum, “Kansas,” convinced that you are the be-all and end-all of all that is right. Even as you change your principles to fit the subject at hand. You show up on this forum, “Kansas,” conviced your silly distortions of the issues prove your superiority. You show up on this forum, “Kansas,” and undermine just about every legitimate conservative argument possible.
You’ve long-since abandoned any semblance of principle. You’re carrying Republic Party water even when it makes no sense.
It’s not conservative anymore. It’s not even Republic Party dogma. You’ve fallen on your knees and have committed yourself into sucking George WMD Bush’s dick.
Amd it’s incredible to watch such idiocy at play in a public forum.
Poor “Kansas.” Poor, poor demented “Kansas.” There’s nothing s/he’s got left except Republic Party boilerplate and ignoring how his/her posts are totally without merit.
Looks like Osama is taking the “you peoples” to task. Get on the ball and do as he says. Your leader has spoken.
“‘You elected the Democratic Party… but the Democrats haven’t made a move worth mentioning. On the contrary, they continue to agree to the spending of tens of billions to continue the killing and war’…”
“…have committed yourself into sucking George WMD Bush’s dick.”
Wrong again. We just tap his foot.
“People of America: the world is following your news in regards to your invasion of Iraq, for people have recently come to know that, after several years of tragedies of this war, the vast majority of you want it stopped. Thus, you elected the Democratic Party for this purpose, but the Democrats haven’t made a move worth mentioning. On the contrary, they continue to agree to the spending of tens of billions to continue the killing and war there.” – Osama
Osama seems pretty disappointed in you Democrats. Better get to doing Osama’s will.
“WASHINGTON – Osama bin Laden criticizes Democrats for failing to stop the Iraq conflict in a video, obtained Friday by the U.S. government, NBC News and other news organizations, marking the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks.”
Outlander it seems the Dems have stepped in it big time. Where is Ron Paul when we need him?
This do nothing congress just continues to disappoint.
The pledge by News Corp. [Fox News] chairman and CEO Rupert Murdoch,http://mediamatters.org/items/200707230003?offset=20&show=1
“When our net emissions reach zero — through a combination of operational changes and carbon offsets — we will be carbon neutral.”
outlander and ksgrm,
Do you believe that OBL is stupid, and does not know how to manipulate U.S. politics?
Well if you believe him when he says he bombed the towers because we had troops in Saudi I was just giving him as much credit as you and RPaul do.
‘CIA: Osama Helped Bush in ‘04 ‘http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/070306.html
“On Oct. 29, 2004, just four days before the U.S. presidential election, al-Qaeda leader Osama bin-Laden released a videotape denouncing George W. Bush. Some Bush supporters quickly spun the diatribe as “Osama’s endorsement of John Kerry.” But behind the walls of the CIA, analysts had concluded the opposite: that bin-Laden was trying to help Bush gain a second term.”
“But behind the walls of the CIA, analysts had concluded the opposite: that bin-Laden was trying to help Bush gain a second term.”"
Nobody has said Osama is stupid. In fact, I may join his bunch. He said there are no taxes.
I’m thinking, I’m thinking.
Consortium News??
You people.
” He said there are no taxes.
I’m thinking, I’m thinking.
Posted by: fleettwood | September 07, 2007 at 05:14 PM”
I guess everyone has priorities…
Who would Osama want in power?
Maybe… someone who has put into place actions that have driven more people to his cause than he ever had.Is it at all possible that Osama is saying things about the Democrats because he really wants the Republicans in power?Is that possible?
Cosmos who do you suppose your news source at Consortium had behind the walls at the CIA? Without some details this is yet again just an unsubstantiated opinion piece. The left gives entirely to much weight to editorioal and opinions.
I was running errands this afternoon, and heard Sean O’LameduckHannity reading OBL’s “alleged” speech… And it sounded all the world to me, like it had been written by some of the experts at the RNC and White House, because it was SO AIMED at the Democrats… It blamed everybody but Clinton for the war in Iraq… It called the USA Stupid for electing Bush to not just ONE term, but TWO…
Now, if ever there was a speech to get the Reich Wing talking points boiling, that was it… It sure got Hannity all fired up!! He seems to think the Repubs might have a good chance of winning in 2008, based on OBL’s speech!!
Earlier, RUSHBO was speculating that OBL looked like a fake on the video, and that just maybe, the Democrats had made the fake tape to pull a fast one on the Republicans…
What a total JOKE talk radio is becoming ever since Nov. 2006!!
The Reich Wingers are actually getting spammed by the “Enemy” taped messages… They actually believe OBL’s hype!!
Apparently, Bin Laden closed his speech with a Muslim version of an “altar call” — inviting the world to accept Islam, and its peace of all understanding, for to reject its teaching, will result in being out of the Presence of Allah for all eternity…
Hmmmmm Sounds sort of like an Altar Call from Christian Evangelists… like Graham, and Swaggert, and Robertson, and all the rest….
How is it they say it??? Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…
Hmmmm… sooo darned similar… sort of spooky… how Bin Laden would use “evangelistic” style language in a Moslem speech???
It just keeps getting curiouser, and curiouser!!
The voice of the American Secular Progressive Left.
Septemember 06, 2007
“Then Bush talks about his working with al-Maliki and his government to spread freedom in Iraq but he in fact is working with the leaders of one sect against another sect, in the belief that this will quickly decide the war in his favor.
And thus, what is called the civil war came into being and matters worsened at his hands before getting out of his control and him becoming like the one who plows and soes the sea; he harvests nothing but failure.”
Osama Bin Laden
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2007/041207.html
“A date certain for American withdrawal also would put non-Iraqi al-Qaeda operatives – who number only an estimated five percent of the armed insurgency – in a tighter fix.
Without the United States to point to, al-Qaeda would find it tougher to recruit jihadists and would likely face military pressure from Iraqi nationalists fed up with foreign interference.
That is why al-Qaeda leaders view Bush’s open-ended war in Iraq as crucial to their long-range plans for spreading their radical ideology throughout the Muslim world. As “Atiyah,” one of Osama bin Laden’s top lieutenants, explained in a Dec. 11, 2005, letter, “prolonging the war is in our interest.” ”
Read bottom of page 16, top of 17 at WEST POINT’s COMBATING TERRORISM CENTER,http://www.ctc.usma.edu/harmony/CTC-AtiyahLetter.pdf
West Point? That place for undergraduate Army Officer training?
They do have War Colleges for Colonels and above.
There is the Pentagon and its studies.
But West Point?
http://ctc.usma.edu/about.asp
Who said that brick walls don’t talk back.
chas-”Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…”
I’m not a believer, but I am pretty certain that is what Jesus said. We could argue if that is right or wrong, but I don’t think there is much argument about whether Jesus meant what He said.
An excellent site, with lots of links to climate science.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/“Scientific skepticism is a healthy thing. Scientists should always challenge themselves to expand their knowledge, improve their understanding and refine their theories. Yet this isn’t what happens in global warming skepticism. Skeptics vigorously criticise any evidence that supports anthropogenic global warming (AGW) and yet eagerly, even blindly embrace any argument, op-ed piece, blog, study or 15 year old that refutes AGW.
So this website gets skeptical about global warming skepticism. Do their arguments have any scientific basis? What does the peer reviewed scientific literature say?”
Hank, maybe you will enjoy this???
‘Polar Bear Population Seen Declining’http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070907/D8RGTL301.html
“Two-thirds of the world’s polar bears will be killed off by 2050 – and the entire population gone from Alaska – because of thinning sea ice from global warming in the Arctic, government scientists forecast Friday.
Only in the northern Canadian Arctic islands and the west coast of Greenland are any of the world’s 16,000 polar bears expected to survive through the end of the century, said the U.S. Geological Survey, which is the scientific arm of the Interior Department.”
“…forecast Friday.”
From the Department of Pulling Numbers out of Your Ass.
This just in…
Steely Dan just may be the best band. Ever.
All hail Limewire.
Cosmos,
True or False:
The Earth has been warming before man began pumping out CO2?
True or False:
The Earth will continue to warm regardless of the most drastic measures propsed to curb our CO2 emmisions?
Chas,
As a Christian what do you believe about Jesus if not accepting him for salvation?
Michelle Arnesto-Berg appeared at legislative committee hearings in Topeka Friday with her attorney, and told the committee of her abortion that took place at Tiller’s Women’s Health Care Services in May, 2003, while she was 18 and about to graduate from High School. Michelle related how her parents were upset to discover that she was pregnant and immediately began to pressure her into an abortion that she didn’t want at 26 weeks into her pregnancy. Michelle’s boyfriend opposed the abortion and had planned with Michelle to marry and raise their child together. Arriving at Tiller’s abortion mill late after several days of coercion, without having spoken to anyone or signed any paperwork, she was prevented from seeing the ultrasound viewing screen while abortionist quack Shelly Sella killed her viable baby with an injection of poison. Michelle was then sent to fill out papers and consent forms. There was no medical exam or history, no verification of the girl’s age, no inquiry about any impairment or disease.On the third day of the abortion, she delivered her dead baby on the floor of the abortion mill, refusing to use the toilet. She got no follow-up care, no call, no other appointment.Michelle learned just this year that quack Sella had declared her baby “not viable” in order to make the abortion appear legal. There was no second opinion, neither was Michelle diagnosed with any medical condition other than pregnancy.Michelle turned her abortion records over to the legislative committee.Besides numerous obvious violations of the Kansas post-viable abortion ban in Tiller’s abortion mill in this case, Michelle’s parents were also accused of illegally coercing the abortion.Tiller collected $2500 for the illegal killing of Michelle’s baby.AG Paul Morrison and a state medical regulator said Friday they’re open to investigating new questions about how Dr. George Tiller and his clinic handled this killing.State Board of Healing Arts Executive Director Larry Buening, without removing his blinders, said the board would commence an investigation IF it received a complaint.Baby-hating Democrat Rep. Annie Kuether attempted to shift blame to teachers, counselors, and society for the illegally butchered baby.The noose of justice tightens yet again on abortionist quack George Tiller and his killing staff. Tiller’s other victims should be getting those malpractice suits started, before Tiller is locked up for good and can’t pay out any judgments anymore.
“The Earth has been warming before man began pumping out CO2?”
Posted by Nathan.
True, (also cooling) and thank you for the 3rd most popular skeptic arguement.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/argument.php?a=22
The pertinent question isn’t “has climate changed in the past?” (of course it has) but “what is causing global warming now?” To begin to answer that, it’s helpful to look at the major causes of natural climate change in the past.” (more at link)
“The Earth will continue to warm regardless of the most drastic measures propsed to curb our CO2 emmisions?”
True, because the warming is in the “pipeline” — thermal inertia of the oceans and aerosols are delaying and masking the equilibrium temperature.
BUT, reducing our GHG emissions will reduce the AMOUNT of future warming NOT already in the “pipeline”.That’s why scientists run different emission scenarios, like Hansen did over 15 years ago (Figure 18 at http://tamino.wordpress.com/2007/09/05/graphic-evidence/ )
They faster and sharper we cut GHG emissions, the less future warming.
Chas,
As a Christian what do you believe about Jesus if not accepting him for salvation?
Posted by: Nathan | September 07, 2007 at 07:31 PM
=======================
Nathan, As usual, you missed the entire point of what I posted!! And instead go off on some illogical attempt to engage me in a theological discourse/discussion… which cannot be won by either of us…
Chas,
You said some disparaging comments about Evangelicals.
The least you could do is explain yourself.
As a Christian I would think that you would believe that Christ is the only way to salvation.
So why would those Evangelicals be wrong in saying:
“”Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…”
I said NOTHING disparaging about Evangelicals… NOT ONE THING!!!
I ALSO did not say that there is anything WRONG with Evangelicals saying that… PLEASE learn to read??? OK???
Looks like it’s “Is it…?” versus “It is… .” time again.
More Bushisms, and tried to exit stage in the wrong direction. Plus a delayed start, to try to fill empty seats in camera view.
‘Bush: OPEC or APEC’http://www.elpasotimes.com/nationworld/ci_6826287
So why would those Evangelicals be wrong in saying:
“”Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…”
Moses, David, Noah, Adam, Eve, etc. etc. are all burning in hell now, according to Nathan.
Wow, that’s harsh.
“So lindainks, no compassion for the over 40,000 who died from traffic deaths each year?
“Or do you like one kind of death over the other?
Posted by: Kansas”
The difference is that the 40,000 traffic deaths are generally not preventable (unless we subsidize massive mass transit).
ALL the deaths in Iraq are preventable, unnecessary and serve no purpose.
My apologies Chas, it seemed rather negative making a comparison between what Bin Laden said to what evengelicals say.
Since you agree with what evangelicals say, I was wrong in making that bad assumption.
Nathan, I know now for a FACT that you cannot READ…. Where on earth do you see anywhere that I AGREE with what the Evangelicals say??? I just said they arent wrong to say it… Not that I would say anything of that sort… I can say they arent wrong to say it, because that falls within their understanding…
Doesnt mean it falls within MY understanding…
Chas,
“I ALSO did not say that there is anything WRONG with Evangelicals saying that… PLEASE learn to read??? OK???”
So, what you are saying is that it is ok to say that:
“Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…”
You just don’t agree with the statement?
If it doesn’t fall within your understanding, then what is it you understand about Jesus?
As a Christian, don’t you believe that you must have faith in Christ for your salvation?
Nathan, in my traditions we dont use Altar Calls… THAT was the point of my entire comparison of OBL and the Evangelicals/Fundies… the use of the Altar Call style…
Get it???
If you cant understand that, go back upthread, and read what I was comparing between Bin Laden, and the Evangelicals… PLEASE???
Then you wont go off on some theological junket…. Cause I am not going down that road with you… We just arent on the same page with that…
Chas,
I understand about Altar Calls.
So, do you or do you not agree with this statement then:
“Accept Jesus, and his peace, or spend eternity out of the presence of God…”
So far you have said:
“Where on earth do you see anywhere that I AGREE with what the Evangelicals say???”
“I ALSO did not say that there is anything WRONG with Evangelicals saying that…”
I am seeking clarification if you don’t mind.
I know you arent that dense… I dont know what game you’re playing… But I am not going to play your game… I said what I was referring to… And that is all that needs to be said…
You might understand salvation one way… Obviously Bin Laden’s understanding is different…
BUT… both Bin Laden and the Evangelicals use a similar form of “altar call” if you will… in saying the same type of thing…
THAT is the comparison…
I dont agree with altar calls… we dont do them… That isnt something that is part of the Reformed Movements…
BTW, I have probably been acquainted with maybe 150-200 muslims… and I have never heard ONE of them come close to the “muslim altar call” put out by Bin Laden on his video… That is something fairly new, it would seem… That “invitation” thing is apparently not terribly common to Islam… They seem to make converts more by study, and by persuasion… sometimes, even by coercion…. (like many early fundamentalists, and old time missionaries — spanish priests of the conquistadores, and even congregational missionaries in Hawaii)
Well, the clock on the wall tells me its time to quit…
Good Night.. Good Luck.. And God Bless, whatever you conceive God to be!!
So Chas,
What do you conceive of God to be?
I don’t think anyone knows what or who “God” is..mankind has a need to understand his existance and purpose, plus the security of social boundries and rules….so he created religion to fulfill that need.
AMEN to that Mary!! Good one!!
Chas,
You realize that you seem to constantly be in agreement with those who constantly bad mouth Christianity.
You refuse to say what you believe about Jesus.
You barely even admitted to being a Christian yourself.
Interesting.
So, what does being a Christian mean to you?
You would be absolutely amazed at the numbers of Christians who do not believe that we have a corner on the market of Salvation…
Maybe amazed is the wrong word… I think you would be Shocked!! I can understand it must be hard for you to believe that not all Christians believe what you believe…
But you know what??? They DONT!!
Guess that makes me one of them…
Jews have just as much access to God’s Saving Grace as any Christian…
See, Grace means “Unmerited favor” See Paul’s letters… If it is UNMerited Favor, then it isnt based on WHAT WE BELIEVE!! It is based on the UNmerited favor of a God of Love, and Grace!!
That is ALL I am going to say to you about this matter… So STOP badgering me with your drivel!!
You know what else??? It doesnt bother me ONE BIT that I have a different understanding of Faith in Christ than you do… I am terribly sorry that you seem so concerned…
SOLA GRATIA… SOLA FIDEI… SOLA SCRIPTURA…