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Open thread 9/6
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Sept. 6, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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140 Comments
Just have to throw my hat in the ring:
“Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven.” Matthew 10:32-33″
Does it mean if I loudly proclaim being “Christian”, whatever that may mean to different people, Christ Himself would confess being “Roo-fian”?
For Pavarotti:
O sole! Vita! Eternità!Luce del mondo e amore!Ride e cantaNel sole l’infinità nostra felicità!Gloria! Gloria a te!
And for his last public performance:
Nessun dorma, nessun dorma …Tu pure, o Principessa,Nella tua fredda stanza,Guardi le stelleChe tremano d’amoreE di speranza.
Ma il mio mistero è chiuso in me,Il nome mio nessun saprà, no, no,Sulla tua bocca lo diròQuando la luce splenderà,Ed il mio bacio scioglierà il silenzioChe ti fa mia.
Il nome suo nessun sapràE noi dovrem, ahimè, morir.
Dilegua, o notte!Tramontate, stelle!All’alba vincerò!
So, is it the Preacher’s fault that Nathan didn’t quite make the cut in the Real Navy?
Gillmor, a Republican, was 68. The leadership aides did not say how Gillmor died.”"”
Who cares how the fool died. One less Republican is always a good thing you know.
Posted by: Kev | September 05, 2007 at 05:39 PM
Trolls and fools spend all night bickering. Looks like it’s starting early today.
You can sure tell which posters don’t have wives/girlfriends.Some of you need to get a life.
Yep, ya sure can, XXX… I get up to get a pill, and the sock puppets are out in full force!!
“”"Gillmor, a Republican, was 68. The leadership aides did not say how Gillmor died.”"”
Who cares how the fool died. One less Republican is always a good thing you know.
Posted by: Kev | September 05, 2007 at 05:39 PM “”"”
I posted that yesterday. Why did you drag it into today? Anyway, like I said, I do not get too sad at the passing of evil. He spent his life beating the downtrodden, serving the rich, oppressing liberty and promoting war, death and destruction because that is what Republicans stand for. So when one of them takes that long trip downstairs to the great lake of fire to see Satan I don’t really care. And the fact is that he can be replaced by a Democrat which is even better.
“”"For Pavarotti:
O sole! Vita! Eternità!Luce del mondo e amore!Ride e cantaNel sole l’infinità nostra felicità!Gloria! Gloria a te!”"”"
We lost a great one. And he did lots of work for charity. He will now add his voice to the angels in Heaven.
Ninety-one percent of foreign policy experts surveyed believe that the world is becoming more dangerous for the U. S.
Madeleine Albright, Jon Alterman, John Arquilla, Ron Asmus, Scott Atran, Andrew Bacevich, Rand Beers, Dan Benjamin, Peter Bergen, Ilan Berman, Mia Bloom, Philip Bobbitt, Joseph Bouchard, Jarret Brachman, Paul Bremer, Matthew Bunn, Daniel Byman, Kurt Campbell, Ted Carpenter, Ashton Carter, Joseph Cirincione, Richard Clarke, Steve Coll, Roger Cressey, Sheba Crocker, PJ Crowley, Matthew Devost, Larry Diamond, Dana Dillon, Jim Dobbins, Daniel Drezner, Lawrence Eagleburger, R.P. Eddy, Robert Einhorn, Michael Eisenstadt, Ivan Eland, Clark Ervin, John Esposito, Douglas Farah, Michelle Flournoy, Steve Flynn, James Forest, William Frenzel, Aaron Friedberg, Jay Garner, Gregory Gause, Leslie Gelb, Fawaz Gerges, William Gertz, Larry Goodson, Slade Gorton, Mort Halperin, Gary Hart, Bruce Hoffman, John Hulsman, Jo Husbands, Robert Hutchings, Michael Jacobson, Larry Johnson, Robert Kagan, Kenneth Katzman, Geoffrey Kemp, Bob Kerrey, Daryl Kimball, Christopher Kojm, Lawrence Korb, Charles Kupchan, Anthony Lake, Anatol Lieven, Thomas Lippman, Jane Holl Lute, Robert Malley, Thomas Marks, John McCarthy, Mary McCarthy, Michael McFaul, Doris Meissner, Steve Metz, Bill Nash, Vali Nasr, William Odom, Charles Pena, Paul Pillar, Daniel Pipes, Christopher Preble, Charles Pritchard, David Rapoport, Susan Rice, Bruce Riedel, Barnett Rubin, Marc Sageman, Michael Scheuer, Steve Simon, Anne-Marie Slaughter, Gayle Smith, James Steinberg, Jessica Stern, Ray Takeyh, Raymond Tanter, Shibley Telhami, Jack Vessey, Edward Walker, Stephen Walt, William Wechsler, Lawrence Wilkerson, Jim Woolsey, Dov Zakheim, Jim Zogby
say Madeleine Albright, Jon Alterman, John Arquilla, Ron Asmus, Scott Atran, Andrew Bacevich, Rand Beers, Dan Benjamin, Peter Bergen, Ilan Berman, Mia Bloom, Philip Bobbitt, Joseph Bouchard, Jarret Brachman, Paul Bremer, Matthew Bunn, Daniel Byman, Kurt Campbell, Ted Carpenter, Ashton Carter, Joseph Cirincione, Richard Clarke, Steve Coll, Roger Cressey, Sheba Crocker, PJ Crowley, Matthew Devost, Larry Diamond, Dana Dillon, Jim Dobbins, Daniel Drezner, Lawrence Eagleburger, R.P. Eddy, Robert Einhorn, Michael Eisenstadt, Ivan Eland, Clark Ervin, John Esposito, Douglas Farah, Michelle Flournoy, Steve Flynn, James Forest, William Frenzel, Aaron Friedberg, Jay Garner, Gregory Gause, Leslie Gelb, Fawaz Gerges, William Gertz, Larry Goodson, Slade Gorton, Mort Halperin, Gary Hart, Bruce Hoffman, John Hulsman, Jo Husbands, Robert Hutchings, Michael Jacobson, Larry Johnson, Robert Kagan, Kenneth Katzman, Geoffrey Kemp, Bob Kerrey, Daryl Kimball, Christopher Kojm, Lawrence Korb, Charles Kupchan, Anthony Lake, Anatol Lieven, Thomas Lippman, Jane Holl Lute, Robert Malley, Thomas Marks, John McCarthy, Mary McCarthy, Michael McFaul, Doris Meissner, Steve Metz, Bill Nash, Vali Nasr, William Odom, Charles Pena, Paul Pillar, Daniel Pipes, Christopher Preble, Charles Pritchard, David Rapoport, Susan Rice, Bruce Riedel, Barnett Rubin, Marc Sageman, Michael Scheuer, Steve Simon, Anne-Marie Slaughter, Gayle Smith, James Steinberg, Jessica Stern, Ray Takeyh, Raymond Tanter, Shibley Telhami, Jack Vessey, Edward Walker, Stephen Walt, William Wechsler, Lawrence Wilkerson, Jim Woolsey, Dov Zakheim, Jim Zogby
heckuva job George
I think I saw Denzel Washington in the middle of that list of names
Now that Fred’s in it appears the majority of the Republican party is running for president.
And why not?
Bush lowered the bar so much that I’m surprised Dennis Rader (Republican BTK) hasn’t announced.
Study: Wrong fish used to save species By JUDITH KOHLER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Sep 5, 9:12 PM ET
DENVER – A 20-year government effort to restore the population of an endangered native trout in Colorado has made little progress because biologists have been stocking some of the waterways with the wrong fish, a new study says.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_sc/wrong_fish
This is just sad, and a little embarrassing.
Ninety-one percent of foreign policy experts surveyed believe that the world is becoming more dangerous for the U. S. Posted by: ????????? | September 06, 2007 at 07:29 AM
Classic example of the clueless who blame the entire world’s problem on one man.
I posted that yesterday. Why did you drag it into today? Anyway, like I said, I do not get too sad at the passing of evil. He spent his life beating the downtrodden, serving the rich, oppressing liberty and promoting war, death and destruction because that is what Republicans stand for. So
—
That is what Democrats stand for as well. Had you drank of the blue koolaid as deeply as the neocons drink the red coolaid you would know this.
The deaths of millions around the world on both your parties. The Democrats support welfare which only keeps the downtrodden down, but keeps them dependent on the system. Big business pays as much to Democrats as it does to Republicans. You apparently forgot why the Democrats were last voted out of office. It was for mostly the same reasons the Republicans were voted out last year. The Democrats made a ton of promises last year and broke most of them within the first 100 days.
Of course, your side defends them by saying the Democrats do not have enough control of Congress. Yet, that same argument could be said for when the Republicans controlled Congress.
Most of the trolls on this board on neoliberals. Their hate-filled intolerant posts are worse than the neocons and other non-neoliberal posters combined. Yet, you continually attack the others for their trollish posts even when they are not trolling. The truth hurts, but I doubt you and your kind will admit the truth.
I saw where some meoliberals relish the idea of sowing and reaping, Karma, Kismet, Fate, what goes around comes around. Well, your hatred and intolerance will come back to bite you as much as it does the Republicans and neocons.
It is amazing how you people apply the same double standard that you accuse the other side of using. Pot meet the kettle.
If the WE did its job on this blog, you would banned along with the Republican trolls. If the WE wants this to be taken as a serious blog, it has to deal with you trolls.
I see people claiming to have jobs that spend more time posting at all times of the day, that either they post at work or they are unemployed. I see Christian and Jew bashing, but I see no bashing of Moslems even though Moslems are less tolerant of things than Jews and Christians combined. Another double standard. I do not advocate bashing anyone since it is not productive.
I see that neoliberals like toresort to name calling and belittlement and not answering questions instead of intelligent debate. When anyone disagrees with you, you attack them. That only shows how weak you are and how weak your arguments are. You are close minded as your neocon friends.
I would hope this would open your eyes, but based on reviewing any number of your posts, I doubt it. At least, you cannot say that you have been warned.
As Pogo would say and it applies to you: We have met the enemy and he is us.
As long as you support the evil Democrats like the other side supports the evil Republicans, the blood of millions is on your hands. Iraq is as much a Democrat bloodbath as a Republican one since most of the Democrats supported it. The rapes, murders, and torturing of Native Americans is also on your hands. The stealing of their lands, the abject poverty most of them live in. The reservation homes without indoor plumbing. The imprisonment of Leonard Peltier, which Clinton almost pardoned until the FBI fought it. The FBI admitted to the courts they lied and fabricated evidence to convict him, and the courts refused to let him go. That injustice is on your hands as well.
So show me how your hatred is valid? You cannot without admitting to being the same kind of hypocrite you accuse the Republicans of.
As to oppressing liberty, numerous Democratic controlled SCOTUS have done that over the years, all in the name of protecting us.
On war, Democrats have been at least as guilty as Republicans on starting unnecessary wars and causing needless deaths. Maybe it was by starting a war, or maybe it was by not getting involved in a war soon enough, or getting into the war on the wrong side.
As another poster side in the other thread, this hate your side will eat you up as much as the neocon eats them up. When you hate someone or something, you give it power over you. Why would you want the Republicans to have that kind of power? Why would the Republicans want you to have that kind of power over them?
The Bible teaches (since you referenced Hell) that how you can love God when you hate your brother. You can see your brother, but you cannot see God.
As an additional edit, you neoliberals support people like Chavez as heroes. Chavez is a worse dictator than our current president. Try saying anything bad about him in his country and expect to spend at least 40 years in jail if not executed out right. He recently is changing their constitution to allow him to serve for life. He controls their version of Congress and the courts.
His policies have increased the number of poor in his country while he gets richer.
He is just one of many examples of how your side supports the evils that the other side supports, but with different people.
WTF? The gospel according to “whatever”? heheheheheh.
Posting this next, I wonder how long it will take for someone to bring up Hillary?
“Citizens Club for Growth to pay fine
Source: AP
WASHINGTON – A conservative, free market group that worked on behalf of Republican candidates in the 2000 and 2004 elections has agreed to pay $350,000 in civil penalties for failing to register as a political committee.
The Federal Election Commission said the Citizens Club for Growth spent $1.28 million during the two election cycles advocating the election or defeat of federal candidates. The FEC said the committee acted as a political committee that should have publicly reported its contributions and expenditures.
The case has been pending as a federal lawsuit brought by the FEC against the organization. The agreement, if approved by a federal judge, would mark the end of the lawsuit.
In addition to the money spent directly advocating for or against candidates, the FEC found that the “vast majority” of the Club’s $15.1 million in spending between August 2000 and the end of 2004 was on candidate research, polling and ads connected to federal elections.
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070905/ap_on_el_ge/politic...
Oh, and just so the REAL haters can get their blood boiling this a.m.
“Audience boos Brownback’s proposal to ban gay marriage
Edited on Wed Sep-05-07 10:43 PM by cal04At the Fox News GOP presidential debate tonight, correspondent Carl Cameron asked a New Hampshire woman whether she wanted gay marriage banned. Her answer — “Absolutely not” — received cheers from the audience. When Sen. Sam Brownback (R-KS) then said he believes the nation should have a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, the audience loudly booed. Watch it:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/09/05/audience-boos-brown... /
A recent CNN poll found that 57 percent of the American public believe gay marriages should have the “same rights as traditional marriages.”
Republicans Focus on Thompson, Iraq War(snip)And Brownback drew boos from the audience when he called for passage of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage. “I understand there is a divided audience,” he said.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_el_pr/republi...
“A recent CNN poll found that 57 percent of the American public believe gay marriages should have the “same rights as traditional marriages.”
Slowing but surely straight Americans are waking up.
Forty years ago I would have never thought I would see two people of the same sex get married. I’m glad I lived long enough to see it.
KFG
The links aren’t working.
“Classic example of the clueless who blame the entire world’s problem on one man.”
And the 16 agencies that do the NIE reports are also “clueless”?
It’s a well known fact that the number of terrorist have grown since the invasion of Iraq.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/06/bush_wmd/index_np.html?source=whitelist
Bush knew Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction
Salon exclusive: Two former CIA officers say the president squelched top-secret intelligence, and a briefing by George Tenet, months before invading Iraq.
By Sidney Blumenthal
On Sept. 18, 2002, CIA director George Tenet briefed President Bush in the Oval Office on top-secret intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction, according to two former senior CIA officers. Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail. Tenet never brought it up again.
Nor was the intelligence included in the National Intelligence Estimate of October 2002, which stated categorically that Iraq possessed WMD. No one in Congress was aware of the secret intelligence that Saddam had no WMD as the House of Representatives and the Senate voted, a week after the submission of the NIE, on the Authorization for Use of Military Force in Iraq. The information, moreover, was not circulated within the CIA among those agents involved in operations to prove whether Saddam had WMD.
On April 23, 2006, CBS’s “60 Minutes” interviewed Tyler Drumheller, the former CIA chief of clandestine operations for Europe, who disclosed that the agency had received documentary intelligence from Naji Sabri, Saddam’s foreign minister, that Saddam did not have WMD. “We continued to validate him the whole way through,” said Drumheller. “The policy was set. The war in Iraq was coming, and they were looking for intelligence to fit into the policy, to justify the policy.”
Now two former senior CIA officers have confirmed Drumheller’s account to me and provided the background to the story of how the information that might have stopped the invasion of Iraq was twisted in order to justify it. They described what Tenet said to Bush about the lack of WMD, and how Bush responded, and noted that Tenet never shared Sabri’s intelligence with then Secretary of State Colin Powell. According to the former officers, the intelligence was also never shared with the senior military planning the invasion, which required U.S. soldiers to receive medical shots against the ill effects of WMD and to wear protective uniforms in the desert.
Instead, said the former officials, the information was distorted in a report written to fit the preconception that Saddam did have WMD programs. That false and restructured report was passed to Richard Dearlove, chief of the British Secret Intelligence Service (MI6), who briefed Prime Minister Tony Blair on it as validation of the cause for war.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_en_mu/pavarotti
Italian tenor Pavarotti dies at 71
By ALESSANDRA RIZZO, Associated Press Writer
55 minutes ago
ROME – Luciano Pavarotti, opera’s biggest superstar of the late 20th century, died Thursday. He was 71. He was the son of a singing baker and became the king of the high C’s.
ADVERTISEMENTPavarotti, who had been diagnosed last year with pancreatic cancer and underwent treatment last month, died at his home in his native Modena at 5 a.m., his manager told The Associated Press in an e-mailed statement.
His wife, Nicoletta, four daughters and sister were among family and friends at his side, manager Terri Robson said.
“The Maestro fought a long, tough battle against the pancreatic cancer,” Robson said. “In fitting with the approach that characterised his life and work, he remained positive until finally succumbing to the last stages of his illness.”
Pavarotti’s charismatic personna and ebullient showmanship ? but most of all his creamy and powerful voice ? made him the most beloved and celebrated tenor since the great Caruso and one of the few opera singers to win crossover fame as a popular superstar.
“He has been, of course, one of the greatest tenors ever, one of the most important singers in the history of opera,” colleague Jose Carreras told reporters in Germany. “We all hoped for a miracle … but unfortunately that was not possible, and now we have to regret that we lost a wonderful singer and a great man.”
For serious fans, the unforced beauty and thrilling urgency of Pavarotti’s voice made him the ideal interpreter of the Italian lyric repertory, especially in the 1960s and ’70s when he first achieved stardom. For millions more, his thrilling performances of standards like “Nessun Dorma” from Puccini’s “Turandot” came to represent what opera is all about.
“Nessun Dorma” turned out to be Pavarotti’s last aria, sung at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics in Turin in February 2006. His last full-scale concert was at Taipei in December 2005, and his farewell to opera was in Puccini’s “Tosca” at New York’s Metropolitan in March 2004.
Instantly recognizable from his charcoal black beard and tuxedo-busting girth, Pavarotti radiated an intangible magic that helped him win hearts in a way Placido Domingo and Carreras ? his partners in the “Three Tenors” concerts ? never quite could.
“I always admired the God-given glory of his voice ? that unmistakable special timbre from the bottom up to the very top of the tenor range,” Domingo said in a statement from Los Angeles.
Pavarotti, who seemed equally at ease singing with soprano Joan Sutherland as with the Spice Girls, scoffed at accusations that he was sacrificing his art in favor of commercialism.
“The word ‘commercial’ is exactly what we want,” he said after appearing in the “Three Tenors” concerts. “We’ve reached 1.5 billion people with opera. If you want to use the word ‘commercial,’ or something more derogatory, we don’t care. Use whatever you want.”
In the annals of that rare and coddled breed, the operatic tenor, it may well be said the 20th century began with Enrico Caruso and ended with Pavarotti. Other tenors ? Domingo included ? may have drawn more praise from critics for their artistic range and insights, but none could equal the combination of natural talent and personal charm that so endeared Pavarotti to audiences.
“Pavarotti is the biggest superstar of all,” the late New York Times music critic Harold Schonberg once said. “He’s correspondingly more spoiled than anybody else. They think they can get away with anything. Thanks to the glory of his voice, he probably can.”
In his heyday, he was known as the “King of the High C’s” for the ease with which he tossed off difficult top notes. In fact it was his ability to hit nine glorious high C’s in quick succession that turned him into an international superstar singing Tonio’s aria “Ah! Mes amis,” in Donizetti’s “La Fille du Regiment” at the Met in 1972.
From Beijing to Buenos Aires, people immediately recognized his incandescent smile and lumbering bulk, clutching a white handkerchief as he sang arias and Neapolitan folk songs, pop numbers and Christmas carols for hundreds of thousands in outdoor concerts.
His name seemed to show up as much in gossip columns as serious music reviews, particularly after he split with Adua Veroni, his wife of 35 years and mother of their three daughters, and then took up with his 26-year-old secretary in 1996.
In late 2003, he married Nicoletta Mantovani in a lavish, star-studded ceremony. Pavarotti said their daughter, Alice, nearly a year old at the time of the wedding, was the main reason they finally wed after years together.
In the latter part of his career, he came under fire for canceling performances or pandering to the lowest common denominator in his choice of programs, or for the Three Tenors tours and their millions of dollars in fees.
He was criticized for lip-synching at a concert in Modena. An artist accused him of copying her works from a how-to-draw book and selling the paintings.
The son of a baker who was an amateur singer, Pavarotti was born Oct. 12, 1935. He had a meager upbringing, though he said it was rich with happiness.
“Our family had very little, but I couldn’t imagine one could have any more,” Pavarotti said.
As a boy, Pavarotti showed more interest in soccer than his studies, but he also was fond of listening to his father’s recordings of tenor greats like Beniamino Gigli, Tito Schipa, Jussi Bjoerling and Giuseppe Di Stefano, his favorite.
Among his close childhood friends was Mirella Freni, who would eventually become a soprano and an opera great herself. The two studied singing together and years later ended up making records and concerts together.
In his teens, Pavarotti joined his father, also a tenor, in the church choir and local opera chorus. He was influenced by the American movie actor-singer Mario Lanza.
“In my teens I used to go to Mario Lanza movies and then come home and imitate him in the mirror,” Pavarotti said.
Singing was still nothing more than a passion while Pavarotti trained to become a teacher and began working in a school.
But at 20, he traveled with his chorus to an international music competition in Wales. The Modena group won first place, and Pavarotti began to dedicate himself to singing.
With the encouragement of his then-fiancee, Adua, he started lessons, selling insurance to pay for them. He studied with Arrigo Pola and later Ettore Campogalliani.
In 1961, Pavarotti won a local competition and with it a debut as Rodolfo in Puccini’s “La Boheme.”
He followed with a series of successes in small opera houses throughout Europe before his 1963 debut at Covent Garden in London, where he stood in for Di Stefano as Rodolfo.
Having impressed conductor Richard Bonynge, Pavarotti was given a role opposite Bonynge’s wife, Sutherland, in a Miami production of “Lucia di Lamermoor.” They subsequently signed him for a 14-week tour of Australia.
It was the recognition Pavarotti needed to launch his career. He also credited Sutherland with teaching him how to breathe correctly.
Pavarotti’s major debuts followed ? at La Scala in Milan in 1965, San Francisco in 1967 and New York’s Metropolitan Opera House in 1968.
Throughout his career, Pavarotti struggled with a much-publicized weight problem. His love of food caused him to balloon to a reported 396 pounds in 1978.
“Maybe this time I’ll really do it and keep it up,” he said during one of his constant attempts at dieting.
Pavarotti, who had been trained as a lyric tenor, began taking on heavier dramatic roles, such as Manrico in Verdi’s “Trovatore” and the title role in “Otello.”
In the mid-1970s, Pavarotti became a true media star. He appeared in television commercials and began singing in hugely lucrative mega-concerts outdoors and in stadiums around the world. Soon came joint concerts with pop stars. A concert in New York’s Central Park in 1993 drew 500,000 fans.
Pavarotti’s recording of “Volare” went platinum in 1988.
In 1990, he appeared with Domingo and Carreras in a concert at the Baths of Caracalla in Rome for the end of soccer’s World Cup. The concert was a huge success, and the record known as “The Three Tenors” was a best-seller and was nominated for two Grammy awards. The video sold over 750,000 copies.
The three-tenor extravaganza became a mini-industry and widely imitated. With a follow-up album recorded at Dodger Stadium in Los Angeles in 1994, the three have outsold every other performer of classical music. A 1996 tour earned each tenor an estimated $10 million.
Pavarotti liked to mingle with pop stars in his series of charity concerts, “Pavarotti & Friends,” held annually in Modena. He performed with artists as varied as Ricky Martin, James Brown and the Spice Girls.
The performances raised some eyebrows but he always shrugged off the criticism.
Some say the “word ‘pop’ is a derogatory word to say ‘not important’ ? I do not accept that,” Pavarotti said in a 2004 interview with the AP. “If the word ‘classic’ is the word to say ‘boring,’ I do not accept. There is good and bad music.”
It was not just his annual extravaganza that saw Pavarotti involved in humanitarian work.
During the 1992-95 Bosnia war, he collected humanitarian aid along with U2 lead singer Bono, and after the war he financed and established the Pavarotti Music Center in the southern city of Mostar to offer Bosnia’s artists the opportunity to develop their skills.
He performed at benefit concerts to raise money for victims of tragedies such as an earthquake in December 1988 that killed 25,000 people in northern Armenia.
Pavarotti was also dogged by accusations of tax evasion, and in 2000 he agreed to pay nearly roughly $12 million to the Italian state after he had unsuccessfully claimed that the tax haven of Monte Carlo rather than Italy was his official residence.
He had been accused in 1996 of filing false tax returns for 1989-91.
Pavarotti always denied wrongdoing, saying he paid taxes wherever he performed. But, upon agreeing to the settlement, he said: “I cannot live being thought not a good person.”
Pavarotti was preparing to leave New York in July 2006 to resume a farewell tour when doctors discovered a malignant pancreatic mass. He underwent surgery in a New York hospital, and all his remaining 2006 concerts were canceled.
Pancreatic cancer is one of the most dangerous forms of the disease, though doctors said the surgery offered improved hopes for survival.
“I was a fortunate and happy man,” Pavarotti told Italian daily Corriere della Sera in an interview published about a month after the surgery. “After that, this blow arrived.”
“And now I am paying the penalty for this fortune and happiness,” he told the newspaper.
Fans were still waiting for a public appearance a year after his surgery. In the summer, Pavarotti taught a group of selected students and worked on a recording of sacred songs, a work expected to be released in early 2008, according to his manager. He mostly divided his time between Modena and his villa in the Adriatic seaside resort of Pesaro.
Just this week, the Italian government honored him with an award for “excellence in Italian culture,” and La Scala and Modena’s theater announced a joint Luciano Pavarotti award.
In his final statement, Pavarotti said the awards gave him “the opportunity to continue to celebrate the magic of a life dedicated to the arts and it fills me with pride and joy to have been able to promote my magnificent country abroad.”
He will be remembered in Italy as “the last great Italian voice able to move the world,” said Bruno Cagli, president of the Santa Cecilia National Academy in Rome.
The funeral will be held Saturday inside Modena’s cathedral, Mayor Giorgio Pighi told SkyTG24.
Well, there you have it, our intelligence problems are solved, just call up Salon dot com or 60 minutes if we need intelligence gathering.
Tarik Aziz wasn’t exactly a reliable source of information as he had lied to the U.S. many times before.
yawn…
“There’s been a certain amount of pop sociology in America … that the Shia can’t get along with the Sunni and the Shia in Iraq just want to establish some kind of Islamic fundamentalist regime. There’s almost no evidence of that at all. Iraq’s always been very secular.”
William Kristol
National public radio 2003
Ron Paul wins again. Faux News tried once again to railroad him, and he knocked it out of the park. Ron Paul pwned Hanity. Hanity AGAIN spreads the lie that RP supporters spammed the poll. Check here http://picasaweb.google.com/J.SkyWave/FoxPoll to see that you can’t. Ron Paul wins – 33%, next closest is Rudy with a meager 15%. The MSM keeps trying to downgrade the revolution, and it just keeps getting stronger.
Ron Paul 2008
“Well, there you have it, our intelligence problems are solved, just call up Salon dot com or 60 minutes if we need intelligence gathering.”
I think the fact that WMD’s were not found says everything.
Try to find the poll results from Faux’s OWN poll. Huh…
No one as yet to explain how the intelligence agencies of England, France, Italy, Russia, and the United States ALL verified the existence of WMDs INDEPENDENT of each other.
Liberal sockpuppets and trolls are indeed out early. Just look at the Libs who have posted today and you have a pretty good idea who is trolling with their sockpuppets.
“Ron Paul wins again.” I read about what Wallace did to Paul last night. I know that I am going to anger some people here for saying this but——FoxNew isn’t even fair and balanced in their own sponsored debate.
Must be pretty embarassing to complain about your own posts and cry to the editor to pull them down!
Maybe you will clean up your own language now.
I doubt it.
Faux news tries to spin their OWN poll. WTF. Who are the dead heads dumb enough to believe it? Too many to count I bet.
KS, an example of another nutless liberal troll
“Liberal sockpuppets and trolls are indeed out early.”
All the graffitti trolls are condemning liberal posters and this means to Kansas that the graffitti trolls are liberals.
Wow, more proof of that genius level IQ that Kansas is always bragging about.
Next thing you know, he’ll be telling us that he was the male star in “Deep Throat.”
And that jack off laughing when Ron Paul was asked questions. He sure shut his damn mouth when the answers came back. Huckabee was the only candidate that could come close to Ron Paul. When Huckabee locked horns with Ron, the best Huckabee could come up with, after being pwned, was “Do it for honor.”
And lookee here who is the first Socialist to comment – why it’s CapnAmerica?
Coincidence?
I think not.
Today on Jerry Springer:
Sock puppets and the people who enable them. Which is worse?
Hey editors? Could we have a daily “f you, no, f YOU” thread daily so these guys can “take it outside”?
Sockpuppet enablers? A new concept…
Like anyone makes the Lib use their trolls to make posts.
They do it on their own accord.
Hypocrites.
It’s been sometime since I have posted on Weblog. I was getting really tired of the trolls taking over OL so decided to put in my two cents here. Now I read that there is a troll problem here.
I can’t win!!!!
What is OL?
And why are you here?
OL is the WE Online and Online Extra,
That poster is correct, it is as troll infested as the Blog.
http://kansas.com/208/index.html
http://kansas.com/opinion/opinionline/story/166804.html
http://kansas.com/opinion/opinionline/story/166206.html
A Kansas farm wife called the local phone company to report her telephone failed to ring when her friends called and that on the few occasions, when it did ring, her dog always moaned right before the phone rang.
The telephone repairman proceeded to the scene, curious to see this psychic dog or senile lady.
He climbed a telephone pole, hooked in his test set, and dialed the subscriber’s house. The phone didn’t ring right away, but then the dog moaned and the telephone began to ring. Climbing down from the pole, the telephone repairman found:
1. The dog was tied to the telephone system’s ground wire with a steel chain and collar.
2. The wire connection to the ground rod was loose.
3. The dog was receiving 90 volts of signaling current when the number was called.
4. After a couple of jolts, the dog would start moaning and then urinate.
5. The wet ground would complete the circuit, thus causing the phone to ring.
Which demonstrates that some problems CAN be fixed by pissing and moaning.
See there is hope for us all yet!
OL must be a WE employee insider term, never heard that before here on the WE Blog.
“Ron Paul 2008″
2008: the number of votes he would get in the general election.
Funniest thing I have seen on the blog in ages.
I hope it wasnt you that was chained up.
“OL must be a WE employee insider term, never heard that before here on the WE Blog.”
Sorry, I didn’t realize that there were people posting here that have never read Opinion Line or I would not abbreviated.
“Ron Paul 2008″
2008: the number of votes he would get in the general election.
Posted by: fleettwood | September 06, 2007 at 09:38 AM
Yeah, and you can tell that by the 2:1 ratio of victory on the Faux debates…
Of course there were WMD’s in Iraq. Think about it…according to the global warming people, the whole global warming problem is caused by the carbon dioxide emitted by the burning of fossil fuels. Therefore, oil is a WMD…(with tongue firmly in cheek).
2008 votes would probably be the highest of any single Repub candidate. The rest will be spread amoung the many Repub candidates
Some time today this thread will either degenerate into a cockfight between who’s the better Christian or GW is real no its not.
As a confirmed liberal, I COULD tolerate a Ron Paul presidency and possibly a Mike Huckabee entry, but the rest of the Republican offerings are nothing more than actors (?) trying to out-macho George W Bush.
The last thing we need is another ready-fire-aim president.
Some time today this thread will either degenerate into a cockfight between who’s the better Christian or GW is real no its not.
Posted by: Tom Paine
Unfortunately, I agree. Or the trolling will get so bad intelligent debate will stop.
Now, for a small diversion:
http://tinyurl.com/27tycr
Caveat lector.
Bush’s economy sets another record.Mortgages entering foreclosures at record high By Patrick Rucker
38 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The rate of home loans entering the foreclosure process rose to a record high in the second quarter of 2007, driven largely by failing subprime mortgages, an industry trade group said on Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENTThe Mortgage Bankers Association said 0.65 percent of loans entered the foreclosure process on a seasonally adjusted basis, 7 basis points higher than the previous quarter and up 22 basis points from a year ago.
The rate of delinquency and foreclosure for subprime loans offered to borrowers with damaged credit also rose from the last quarter and a year ago.
The subprime delinquency rate rose to 14.82 percent in the second quarter of the year from 13.77 percent at the end of the first three months.
While the national rate of failed loans continues to rise, the problems are concentrated in several of the states that saw the largest price gains during the recent housing boom, the trade association said.
“What continues to drive the national numbers … is what is happening in the states of California, Florida, Nevada and Arizona,” said Douglas Duncan, the MBA chief economist.
Duncan also noted that loans to strong borrowers in a fixed-rate mortgage continue to perform well even as subprime and adjustable-rate loans slide.
“The seriously delinquent rate for prime fixed-rate loans was essentially unchanged from the first quarter of the year to the second,” Duncan said in a statement.
In that time, the rate of seriously delinquent subprime loans rose 277 basis points
Some not so good, but funny “flubbed” English translations.
In a Copenhagen airline ticket office: We take your bags and send them in all directions.
In a Rome laundry: Ladies, leave your clothes here and spend the afternoon having a good time.
In a Bangkok dry cleaner’s: Drop your trousers here for best results.
On the menu of a Swiss restaurant: Our wines leave nothing to hope for.
In a hotel in Athens: Visitors are expected to complain at the office between the hours of 9 and 11 A.M. daily.
In a Japanese hotel: You are invited to take advantage of the chambermaid.
from the Soviet Weekly: There will be a Moscow Exhibition of Arts by 15,000 Soviet Republic painters and sculptors. These were executed over the past two years.
In an advertisement by a Hong Kong dentist: Teeth extracted by latest Methodists.
I’ll get the zealots started. Without the meteor collision 16 mil. yrs. ago, man most likely wouldn’t have evolved. Alley OOp is a figament of the imagination!Distant space collision meant doom for dinosaurs By Will Dunham
Wed Sep 5, 3:36 PM ET
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A collision 160 million years ago of two asteroids orbiting between Mars and Jupiter sent many big rock chunks hurtling toward Earth, including the one that zapped the dinosaurs, scientists said on Wednesday.
ADVERTISEMENTTheir research offered an explanation for the cause of one of the most momentous events in the history of life on Earth — a six-mile-wide (10-km-wide) meteorite striking Mexico’s Yucatan peninsula 65 million years ago.
That catastrophe eliminated the dinosaurs, which had flourished for about 165 million years, and many other life forms, and paved the way for mammals to dominate the Earth and the eventual rise of humankind, many scientists believe.
The impact is thought to have triggered a worldwide environmental cataclysm, expelling vast quantities of rock and dust into the sky, unleashing giant tsunamis, sparking global wildfires and leaving Earth shrouded in darkness for years.
U.S. and Czech researchers used computer simulations to calculate that there was a 90 percent probability that the collision of two asteroids — one about 105 miles wide and one about 40 miles wide — was the event that precipitated the Earthly disaster.
The collision occurred in the asteroid belt, a collection of big and small rocks orbiting the sun about 100 million miles from Earth, the researchers report in this week’s issue of the journal Nature.
The asteroid Baptistina and rubble associated with it are thought to be leftovers, the scientists said.
Some of the debris from the collision escaped the asteroid belt, tumbled toward the inner solar system and whacked Earth and our moon, along with probably Mars and Venus, said William Bottke of the Southwest Research Institute in Boulder, Colorado, one of the researchers.
DEADLY COLLISION
The collision is believed to have doubled for a while the number of impacts occurring in this part of the solar system.
In fact, while the bombardment of this region of the solar system due to this shower of debris peaked about 100 million years ago, the scientists said the tail end of the shower continues to this day. Bottke said many existing near-Earth asteroids can be traced back to this collision.
“Imagine breaking up a big, big boulder on top of a hill and all the fragments rolling down the hill. And somewhere at the bottom is a village called Earth,” Bottke said in a telephone interview.
The dinosaur-destroying meteorite, thought to have measured 6 miles across, plunged into Mexico’s Yucatan Peninsula and blasted out the Chicxulub (pronounced CHIK-shu-loob) crater measuring about 110 miles wide. The researchers looked at evidence on the composition of this meteorite and found it consistent with the stony Baptistina.
The researchers estimated that there also was about a 70 percent probability that the prominent Tycho crater on the Moon, formed 108 million years ago and measuring about 55 miles
across, also was carved out by a remnant of the earlier asteroid collision.
Philippe Claeys of Vrije Universiteit Brussel in Belgium, who was not involved in the research, said by e-mail the findings were “clear evidence that the solar system is a violent environment and that collisions taking place in the asteroid belt can have major repercussions for the evolution of life on Earth.”
Bottke emphasized that point. “Dinosaurs were around for a very long time. So the likelihood is they would still be around if that event had never taken place,” Bottke said.
“Was humanity inevitable? Or is humanity just something that happened to arise because of this sequence of events that took place at just the right time. It’s hard to say.”
Honestly Ron Paul didn’t do that great of a job. Especially when asked how he would gather intel without the FBI & CIA. It’s like he didn’t even think about it before.
Second,private companies will protect the people is the biggest crock of spit. That’s why we’ve had to have regulations in the FIRST place…companies do their damndest to SAVE MONEY for their own pockets, not investing in safety! and don’t say the American consumer will turn away from those who are unethical, they won’t! Look at Walmart!
The best part of RP’s debate was when he and Huckabee went at it. RP was dead on correct in that.
Good article The Phantom.
I recall reading an article about that and I think it was titled “God’s Hammer.”
Anyway, thought it was an appropriate title for a seemingly sudden event.
That can’t be true, Phantom, the Earth is only 10,000 years old.
Actually, without the collision between a rogue planet and earth around 4 billion years ago, there would be no moon, and no life.
It’s a differen world since 9/11; that is everything except security.Sham motorcade passes by APEC security Thu Sep 6, 7:14 AM ET
SYDNEY, Australia – Members of an Australian TV comedy show, one dressed as Osama bin Laden, drove through two security checkpoints Thursday before being stopped near the Sydney hotel where President Bush is staying.
ADVERTISEMENTThe stunt embarrassed Sydney police who have imposed the tightest security measures in city history for a summit of leaders from Pacific Rim countries, including Bush.
Police arrested 11 cast and crew from the TV program, “The Chaser’s War on Everything,” and impounded three vehicles, the Australian Broadcasting Corp., which airs the show, said on its Web site.
Cast members put together a sham motorcade, hiring two motorcycles and three large cars on which they put Canadian flags. Police waved the motorcade through two checkpoints before pulling it over near the Intercontinental Hotel where Bush is staying.
Cast member Chas Licciardello got out of the car dressed in a white tunic and cap and wearing a long fake Osama bin Laden-style beard.
“No particular reason we chose Canada,” cast member Chris Taylor was quoted as saying on The Sydney Morning Herald’s Web site. “We just thought they’d be a country who the cops wouldn’t scrutinize too closely, and who feasibly would only have three cars in their motorcade — as opposed to the 20 or so gas guzzlers that Bush has brought with him.”
Bush is a frequent target of “the Chaser,” as are Australian politicians. Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said the stunt proved security was working.
“Whatever you think of the humor of ‘the Chaser,’ the honest truth is they were clearly not going to harm anybody in a physical way,” Downer said. “They presumably were, as is the nature of their show, aiming to humiliate a lot of well-known people.”
Faux News release: Wallace declared clear winner in last nights debate.
RP pwned Wallace AND Hanity.
Well, you can say it Sol, but that doesn’t make it true.
Look, they tried to railroad him. Some asshole was laughing in the back while RP was being asked questions. He got a little pissed, but ultimately kept his cool and answered the questions.
He made clear his position on foreign policy. He made clear that we rely too heavily on the government. He blew Wallace up on the Iraq issue. He blew Huckabee up on Iraq. All Huckabee had left was “Do it for honor. “ Wallace had the balls to say “We should take our marching orders from al-qadae.” While the jack offs were laughing. Blew that one right out of the park – follow the constitution.
So while these jack offs are laughing, Ron Paul walks away with a commanding 2:1 victory. 33% vs the next closest candidate at 15%.
33% to 15%. Clear winner.
I’m glad to see the movie star (Fredo) added to the Republican race.
With the exception of Jeb Bush, the circus is complete.
Jeb announces next month :->
Hot ziggety! Finally we’ll have a good race!
On the other side… What happened to the Clinton/Obama mud sling fest? Was Hillary just testing the water to see how Barack would respond?
IMO Obama has never stood a chance. It’s practice for both.
Obama’s day will come and Hillary will be there to help him.
It’s just not his time.
“33% to 15%. Clear winner.”
Posted by: SolDevVB
I am assuming this is some kind of non-scientific call-in poll – would that be correct? Also, is it necessary to demonize your opposition by calling them “jack offs”? – that seems too middle school, you know?
What about Edwards? He is farther back yet isn’t he? I thought Obama had quite a bit of support.
SD,
The poll was set up and run by Fox. If you follow the link up thread you will see that you can only vote once.
So you have informed people making the effort to text in vs. random phone calls to someone w/o the benefit of having seen the debate. I’ll take the first option.
The laughter was coming from the commentators as well. Can you say unprofessional? And the candidates that were laughing? Not quite presidential. So was it third grade, you bet your ass it was. Too bad they didn’t show the third graders laughing.
Sol
It’s just my opinion but Obama is just too green ($10 minimum wage, meet with Castro, etc.). He does have a lot of support however but I think it will fade.
I look for Edwards to be Hill’s running mate.
“Obama is just too green ($10 minimum wage, meet with Castro, etc.).
Posted by: ??? | September 06, 2007 at 01:20 PM “I think he is ‘green’ in that he publicly shares his real ideas on how to solve problems, rather than just saying what the polls want to hear.
I guess, from the standpoint of politics that is green. Seasoned politicians know not to say things the polls will not like, right or wrong. (That is also why I am all for term limits)
Nuclear Bombs Mistakenly Flown Over UShttp://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Sep05/0,4670,BomberWarheads,00.html
Officials: Norwegian, British Fighters Scramble to Monitor Russian Bombershttp://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295907,00.html
Anyone see any ties between these 2 stories?
Russia’s Putin has resumed cold war routine nuke-carrying bomber runs over the arctic.
Has the US secretly done the same? Did someone without security clearance at Barksdale Air Force Base see the warheads he wasn’t supposed to see and go blabing his mouth?
Tell me the Air Force pilots didn’t notice the 6 nukes on the tips of the cruise missiles! The weight alone would be very noticeable.
Why Louisiana you might ask? Well, B1 bombers are based at Dyess Air Force Base in Texas. Transarctic bomber runs can originate in the southern US.
The US may have secretly resumed nuke-armed bomber runs in response to Putin’s restart of this cold war era strategy.
I hope we did. I hope that the US sends up 16 bombers in response to the 8 that Russia sent up.
If Russia sends up 16, then we send up 32.
Putin needs to be deterred from playing this dangerous cold war game.
And Max our military men need to be slapped severly for leaking this info to the press. American have the right to know – what crap.
I agree with that Sol, I was completely put off by the laughing.
Yeah and who said Bush needed to take a stronger arm with Putin? but no, Bush acts like Putin is the man…and doesn’t notice how he’s killing off his opposers. Also like how Bush has stopped calling China out for being communists.
Reagan would be turning over in his grave!
That was the one good thing Reagan ever did.
Pmom I have to use that ‘C’ name here but when he and Madeline Albright were in power they gave away so much of our technology to China that we have to handle them with kids gloves now. We gave them nuclear tech. because they wanted to build a ‘power’ plant. Well they have, except these plants are portable and capable of wiping out a large chunk of real estate.
Not making excuses for Bush but this could be a very big reason he has had to back off.
“Trade is also an important part of our relationship with China. Our exports have tripled over the last decade and now support over 170,000 American jobs.
But just as important, trade is a force for change in China, exposing China to our ideas and our ideals, and integrating China into the global economy.
For these reasons, I intend to renew MFN status with China.”
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/06/03/clinton.mfn/transcript.html
“WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, Oct. 29) — Putting aside stubborn differences on human rights and democratic reform, President Bill Clinton and Chinese President Jiang Zemin today announced a pact aimed at halting the spread of nuclear weapons and giving China access to U.S. nuclear power plant technology.”
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/
Clinton gave back MFN status and our economy is paying the price now. He gave them our nuclear technology and we are now paying the piper. Sad but true. Actions have consequences and we are seeing those now. That is why I don’t agree with you and WS that Clinton was the best prez ever. Not even close.
Pmom, how do you know Bush isn’t being firm with Putin in private?
I saw a PBS documentary the other day (I’ll try to find the link) showing how US troops are providing training to Georgia troops – in Putin’s backyard.
American troops are stationed all over the world, training foreign troops in places I didn’t realize we were supporting.
I’ll try to find the link.
Say Ksgrm, maybe it was a civilian or a reporter who saw the armed B-52, just speculation. I agree with you, if we have troops leaking classified info, they should be dealt with.
Oh yes, lets blame it all on Clinton.
Grm, can you guess who was a liason for China/US relations?
So if we’re getting ready to use a nuclear option, we have no right as American citizens to know that this is about to happen?
Not sure what this whole thing is about but about the first verse up on top: It mean that if you prclaim Jesus Christ not “christianity” He will acknowledge you in heaven. Being a “christian” and following Christ have become 2 different things
Political Mom,
In a representative Republic like we have, we elect the President to make certain decisions for us in absense of having to get everyone of those decisions apporved by the public first.
One of those decisions is the ability to launch Nuclear Weapons.
Launching Nuclear Weapons is always about to happen.
We are constantly testing our various resources on their ability to launch Nuclear Weapons.
Kucinich: Leader of the Democrat Party. On foreign soil, no less.
“I feel the United States is engaging in an illegal occupation … I don’t want to bless that occupation with my presence,” he said in an interview in Lebanon, after visiting Syria. “I will not do it.”
Kucinich, who accused the Bush administration of policies that have destabilized the Mideast, met with Syrian President Bashar Assad during his visit to Damascus. He said Assad was receptive to his ideas of “strength through peace.”
“11 Arrests in NJ Corruption Probe…”
Damned corrupt Republicans!
This is quite a long video, but well worth the time. It’s a history lesson with a bonus at the end about all Americans.
http://www.archive.org/stream/DontBeaS1947/DontBeaS1947_256kb.mp4
To follow-up on the above post -US Troops in the Republic of Georgia:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/asia/jan-june02/allies_3-12.html
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: In the republic of Georgia, terrorists working closely with al-Qaida operate in the Pankisi Gorge, near the Russian border.
At President Shevardnadze’s request, the United States is planning to send up to 150 military trainers to prepare Georgian soldiers to reestablish control in this lawless region. This temporary assistance serves the interests of both our countries.
American trainers.
Great.
That way the Georgians will have the same success we’ve had in Iraq.
11 Arrests in NJ Corruption Probe…”
Damned corrupt Republicans!
Posted by: fleettwood
You may want to read the article first. According to yahoo,
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070906/ap_on_re_us/corruption_arrests;_ylt=AjGiigxWzVVJW.xUo1t_6Fas0NUE
several are democrats, not sure what the rest are.
G W Bush: He kept our boys out of Northern Ireland!
Ummmm I believe China was granted MFN status BEFORE Clinton took office — After all, George Bush, Sr. was once ambassador there…
11 Arrests in NJ Corruption Probe
Looks like 10 democrats and one republican.http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004089.php
Read the comments….
Throw all the incumbent bums out! Democrat/Republican at Federal, State, and Local levels!
An 80-year-old man goes for a physical. All of his tests come back with normal results. The doctor says,
“George, everything looks great. How are you doing mentally and emotionally? Are you at peace with God?”
George replies, “God and I are tight. He knows I have poor eyesight, so he’s fixed it so when I get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, poof!
The light goes on. When I’m done, poof! the light goes off.”
“Wow, that’s incredible,” the doctor says. A little later in the day, the doctor calls George’s wife.
“Ethel,” he says, “George is doing fine! But I had to call you because I’m in awe of his relationship with God. Is it true that he gets up during the night and poof! the light goes on in the bathroom, and when he’s done, poof! the light goes off?”
Oh my God!” Ethel exclaims. “He’s peeing in the fridge again!
“”"”And why not?
Bush lowered the bar so much that I’m surprised Dennis Rader (Republican BTK) hasn’t announced.”"”
BTW what is old Republican Dennis up to these days? Can he still vote?
On May 26, 1994, President Clinton announced his decision to renew “most-favored nation (MFN)” trade benefits for China and to “delink” China’s progress on human rights from its eligibility for MFN status In explaining his decision, Clinton’s ~justification echoed that previously advanced by President Bush, which then candidate Clinton had criticized as “coddling” Chinese dictators Now that he was President, Clinton decided to cast aside both his campaign rhetoric and his 1993 Executive Order that had formally tied MFN to human rights.
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA442614
Ummmm I believe China was granted MFN status BEFORE Clinton took office — After all, George Bush, Sr. was once ambassador there…
Posted by: Chas. | September 06, 2007 at 04:36 PM
I believe if you do your research you will find that MFN was taken back because of the human rights violations. Bush 41 had some input on this but it was your boy Bill who in the end did the deed.
Chas just a small word of advise: He who does much research doesn’t have to eat so much crow. Old Chinese Proverb.
“”"That is what Democrats stand for as well. Had you drank of the blue koolaid as deeply as the neocons drink the red coolaid you would know this.
The deaths of millions around the world on both your parties. The Democrats support welfare which only keeps the downtrodden down, but keeps them dependent on the system. Big business pays as much to Democrats as it does to Republicans. You apparently forgot why the Democrats were last voted out of office. It was for mostly the same reasons the Republicans were voted out last year. The Democrats made a ton of promises last year and broke most of them within the first 100 days.
Of course, your side defends them by saying the Democrats do not have enough control of Congress. Yet, that same argument could be said for when the Republicans controlled Congress.”"”
When did I ever say the Democrats were perfect. There was a time in history- even recent history- in which the Democrats were the essence of evil and the Republicans were less evil. Lincoln vs Douglas comes to mind. So does Eisenhower vs Fabus. So I do not disagree that the Dems have had their share of history. But we have to look at facts today and today we can only choose between Dems or Reps and the Republicans have now come to stand with the very scum of this country. Not only the racist rednecks (which is why they and not the Democrats now win the south and not only the robber barrons and corporate criminals but even the closet queers, child molesters and serial liars in their own party. And if you think I am big on the Dems, I invite you to review my many post calling Bill Clinton a lousy President. He was and I have many times.
“”"Most of the trolls on this board on neoliberals. Their hate-filled intolerant posts are worse than the neocons and other non-neoliberal posters combined. Yet, you continually attack the others for their trollish posts even when they are not trolling. The truth hurts, but I doubt you and your kind will admit the truth.”"”
I have not personally attacked any member on this board or ever called anybody a troll. I do not war with Kansas, Pmom or any other member on here and have not.
“”"The Bible teaches (since you referenced Hell) that how you can love God when you hate your brother. You can see your brother, but you cannot see God.”"”
I do not consider the Republicans to be “my brothers”. They are “the enemy” to me. I have no use for people that only care about themselves, their own power and to Hell with everybody else and the country too. Now, if I witness a pick up truck with a “W” sticker wrap itself around a light pole, I would probably stop and try to save the Republican sap’s life because that is what we liberals usually do. But then as I kept him from bleeding to death, I would tell him “you know that ambulance might have been here a bit quicker if you had not cut taxes for the rich”.
“”"PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: In the republic of Georgia, terrorists working closely with al-Qaida operate in the Pankisi Gorge, near the Russian border.
At President Shevardnadze’s request, the United States is planning to send up to 150 military trainers to prepare Georgian soldiers to reestablish control in this lawless region. This temporary assistance serves the interests of both our countries.”"”"
Good! I support it 100%. Whereever the terrorist are, we need to go and kill them. Just like I agreed with Obama said about Pakistan, I agree with Bush on this- and you know it is rare day when I agree with Bush. The terrorist are like cockroaches. Just because you killed them all in the kitchen does not mean there are not more in the bedroom. Follow them and kill them all! If Bush had not wasted all of our “bug spray” in Iraq, we could be much further along in killing these cock suckers. Same thing with Gitmo. I agree- close it. Put the terrorist on trial. Those found innocent or those that have had a change in heart and are willing to cooperate, let them go. Those that are found guilty- put them on an aircraft carrier in the Bay of Pigs and throw them overboard and let the sharks take care of the rest.
“”"”The Mortgage Bankers Association said 0.65 percent of loans entered the foreclosure process on a seasonally adjusted basis, 7 basis points higher than the previous quarter and up 22 basis points from a year ago.”"”"
And this is a “crisis”?? 0.65%?? That means that 99.45% of the mortgages are apparently being paid just fine! Hardly a “crisis”.
“”"”A Kansas farm wife called the local phone company to report her telephone failed to ring when her friends called and that on the few occasions, when it did ring, her dog always moaned right before the phone rang.
The telephone repairman proceeded to the scene, curious to see this psychic dog or senile lady.
He climbed a telephone pole, hooked in his test set, and dialed the subscriber’s house. The phone didn’t ring right away, but then the dog moaned and the telephone began to ring. Climbing down from the pole, the telephone repairman found:
1. The dog was tied to the telephone system’s ground wire with a steel chain and collar.
2. The wire connection to the ground rod was loose.
3. The dog was receiving 90 volts of signaling current when the number was called.
4. After a couple of jolts, the dog would start moaning and then urinate.
5. The wet ground would complete the circuit, thus causing the phone to ring.
Which demonstrates that some problems CAN be fixed by pissing and moaning.
See there is hope for us all yet!”"”"
Tell that joke 50 years from now to a teenager and he will say “what the hell are you talking about?”. Landline phones are quickly going to way of the horse and buggy. Cell phones already outnumber landlines and soon the number of “cell only” people will surpass the number of landline subscribers. The telcos know this which is why you don’t see them putting much money into the old copper plant but putting in fiber everywhere they can so they can sell high speed data, TV and VOIP. They know the ringing phone will soon be just a memory. BTW I am employed in the cell industry.
Kev,
Have you apologized for your hateful comments from yesterday yet?
“”"Kev,
Have you apologized for your hateful comments from yesterday yet?”"”
No I have not. But I will now. I am sorry for saying who cares why the old fool died. It was over the line and I should not have said it. I am sorry the man is dead because he was probably loved by somebody somewhere and they are probably hurt and my rather crude remarks did not help his family if he has one.
Well,
That was unexpected, but a pleasent surprise.
Thank you.
Kev thank you for stepping up and saying that.
Ksgrm
“Legislation in the 106th Congress reflected China’s prospective accession to the WTO. On one hand, it prohibited U.S. support of China’s admission to the WTOwithout Congress’s legislative approval and, moreover, in two instances required the United States to withdraw from the WTO if China was admitted to it without the U.S. support. On the other hand, like in prior years, Congress failed to pass legislationdisapproving the President’s mid-year renewals of China’s Jackson-Vanik waiver and, moreover, enacted legislation (Title I, P.L. 106-286) approving permanentnondiscriminatory status for China upon its accession to the WTO.
On January 30, 1998, the President extended the trade agreement with China for 3 years, and on June 1, 2001, renewed for one year China’s Jackson-Vanik waiver and, thereby, its temporary nondiscriminatory status.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl30225.pdf.
Looks like Clinton merely gave a three year extension, until January, 2001… BUSH renewed it in June, 2001… Looks like it was originally restored in 1980… under Carter, maybe, but later revoked…
So, Ksgrm, does that still make it Clinton’s doing?? I hardly think so…
Ooops try this link??
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:cym2UmKUUrIJ:www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/crs/rl30225.pdf+China+Most+Favored+Nation+Status&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&gl=us
China is now part of the WTO isn’t it? That’s much better (for them) especially if they can still flaunt the WTO rules they don’t agree with!
Some technology may have slipped into China under Clinton; buy, under bush they just simply buy the company that has the technology they want.
Phantom that is true to a certain extent. No so for the nuclear tech. that Madeline and Billy gave them with their eyes wide open.
Chas, It must be hard to be you to have to defend Clinton. Glad it isn’t me. History might make me ashamed of Bush but right now I haven’t condemed him.
no=not
I liked Clinton… but he isnt the President, and never will be again… I merely pointed out to you that the CURRENT MFN status was renewed 6 months AFTER Clinton’s extension ended.. Which means BUSH renewed it… Right?? I mean, he didnt HAVE to renew it… but he DID!!
Joseph Antos, American Enterprise Institute, looks inside the Cenus numbers, because they are very misleading.
uninsured who are NOT U.S. CITIZENS IS 45% of the 47 million.
Broken down by age, 18 – 24 years old – 29.3% of the 47 million.
25 – 35 years old – 26.9% of the 47 million.
Broken down by salary, $75,000 or more per year – 8.5% of the 47 million.
Did you get that? Almost half of the uninsured in America are not U.S. citizens.
So Kansas, roughly 20 million uninsured AMERICANS with income less than $75,000?
How many uninsured Americans with income less than $30,000?
($30,000 and up is what the Democrats will be defining as RICH!)
Max, I think you need to back that one up with some kind of reference…
Um, if you could read Chas, Kansas posted the source the other day. US Census Bureau.
Course ya can’t trust the government to give you accurate information or to do anything right.
Kansas, can you repost please?
It’s called the 2006 Census Chas and it’s online.
So Kansas, roughly 20 million uninsured AMERICANS with income less than $75,000?
Max, get out your calculator… It would be a whole lot more than that!!
Broken down by salary, $75,000 or more per year – 8.5% of the 47 million.
Morelike 43,005,000 with income less than $75,000
Kansas, sometimes it helps those who cannot do their own research to cut and paste for them.
Sometimes I’ll throw the numbers into Excel first to get it to format small enough to post.
Yea, I can read… 21.15 Million of those Uninsured are NOT U.S. citizens… That would be 45% of the 47 Million…
47 million total uninsured.21 million are illegal aliens.Equals26 million uninsured Americans.
ASSUMING the 8.5% with income over $75,000 are all Americans, then:
26 million uninsured Americans4 million uninsured Americans with income > $75,000Equals21 million uninsured Americans with income $30,000.
How many? That was my question to Kansas, since he already had the data handy.
Typo correction:
26 million uninsured Americans4 million uninsured Americans with income > $75,000Equals21 million uninsured Americans with income < $75,000.
How many of those 21 million have income <$30,00? That was my question to Kansas, since he already had the data handy.
Hey Kev,
Where did the horse and buggy go? I’ve got a couple. If you ever want a ride, let me know.
Hank
OK… I ssee what you are looking for… But you still have the percentage with income $75,000 and over including legals, and illegals combined… That was what was throwing me the curve ball…
“Landline phones are quickly going to way of the horse and buggy. Cell phones already outnumber landlines and soon the number of “cell only” people will surpass the number of landline subscribers.”
I am sure the above is correct, which makes me ask why Blockbuster won’t give you one of their cards unless you have a land line? What’s up with that?
“The percentage of native citizens who were uninsured rose in 2004, while the percentage of non-citizen immigrants who lacked coverage fell. Nonetheless, non-citizen immigrants (44.1 percent uninsured) were much more likely to be uninsured than native-born citizens (13.3 percent).”
http://www.cbpp.org/8-30-05health.htm
“Non-citizen immigrants” does not necessarily mean ILLEGAL immigrants.
Of those non-citizen immigrants, 44.1% of THEM are uninsured. Not 44.1% of the 45.8 million total uninsured.
Actually, about 45% of the 47 million uninsured are non-citizens; and that it is unclear how many of those are illegal immigrants. It looks to be about 2 million less on the foreign born side, so about 19.1 million illegal aliens uninsured and included in the 47 million total.
Also, Dr. Antos and others have stated that the amount of uninsured maybe be even less than reported because the medicare and medicaid insured figures may be off somewhere between 2-9 million.
The reason for this is because when the people fill out the survey in the hospital to get care, they select the answer “NO” if you have additional health care coverage such as medicaid or medicare to avoid answering additional questions on the lengthy form.
Not sure if I can answer the question of “How many of those 21 million have income <$30,00? That was my question to Kansas, since he already had the data handy.”
The median income of foreign born households was $43,943.00. Hispanic median income was $37,781.00. The only thing that the census says about it is that in a footnote is
“12 The difference between the increases in median household income of native-born householdsand foreign-born households maintained by a person who was not a citizen was not statistically different.”
So, the income for illegal aliens of Hispanic origin is about $37,781.00 (+/-)
Dr. Antos bio:
Joseph R. Antos is the Wilson H. Taylor Scholar in Health Care and Retirement Policy at the American Enterprise Institute and an adjunct professor in the School of Public Health at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. He is also a commissioner on the Maryland Health Services Cost Review Commission. His recent research focuses on the economics of health policy, including Medicare reform, health insurance regulation, and the uninsured. He has testified before Congress on federal health policy and has been quoted in the media, including the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Business Week, CNN, and C-SPAN.
So Capn is ???. :)
They posted the same link in two different threads.
Today’s legislative committee hearing today in Topeka heard long-running objections from baby-hating Democrat Sen. Hensley and Rep. Annie Kuether, puppeted by AG Morrison and abortionist quack Tiller, on why the psychiatric expert testimony of Dr. Paul McHugh on DVD should be suppressed as evidence. Abortion advocates on the committee also attempted to divert discussions into issues of credibility, bias, elections, whether men can become pregnant – ANYTHING but why the Kansas post-viable abortion ban, enacted into law years ago, is not being enforced at all – not by AG Morrison, not by DA Foulston, not by BOHA, not by KDHE, and not by the demanded Sedgwick County grand jury that was previously led around by the nose by DA Foulston and BOHA, and denied needed evidence and witnesses, resulting in a lack of indictment of Tiller by ONE vote.Meanwhile, viable babies are still illegally butchered, as if Kansas government cared.
Robert H. Trice, Senior Vice President of Lockheed Martin, made a positive contribution by being one of the few people to talk of the “800 pound gorilla in the room, China.” He said that a major concern in Washington regarding American companies working with European partners is fear that technology would be passed through Europe to China. While it is important to share technology with allies in order to bolster American exports, there must be firewalls against further proliferation.
Italy is lobbying the European Union to lift the arms embargo on China, so it was not surprising that Stephen Bryen, President of Finmeccanica’s U.S. affiliate, would proclaim that Beijing is not a threat. Finmeccanica is already very active in doing business in China that violates the spirit (if not the letter) of the EU ban. The ease with which corporate money can overcome concerns about national security is always disturbing. Bryen was Deputy Under Secretary of Defense in the Reagan Administration. He was responsible for technology security policy and worked to formulate national policies to protect U.S. military and commercial products, know-how and intellectual property. Now he works for foreign interests trying to undo all he had once honorably worked to build.
Another former official also spoke in favor of ignoring China. Suzanne Patrick served as Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Industrial Policy in President George W. Bush’s first term. She argued that we should not treat China as an enemy, or we will turn Beijing into one. It is a good thing she left the Pentagon, since this year’s Quadrennial Defense Review states, “Of the major and emerging powers, China has the greatest potential to compete militarily with the United States and field disruptive military technologies that could over time off set traditional U.S. military advantages absent U.S. counter strategies….The pace and scope of China’s military build-up already puts regional military balances at risk.”
Just before Thanksgiving, a new spy story broke involving Beijing’s attempts to steal U.S. military technology. It was reported that China obtained secret stealth technology used on the B-2 strategic bomber from a Hawaii-based spy ring headed by former defense contractor Noshir Gowadia. Meanwhile, AIA, the National Association of Manufacturers, and other globalized business groups are lobbying against attempts by the Commerce Department to tighten up security restrictions on trade with China.
A common theme of the globalist speakers was that policies meant to maintain a strong, domestic defense industry are Cold War relics. A number of speakers, including Douglass and Bryen, claimed that the only perils now were terrorists and perhaps a few backward rogue states. This is the view of a harmonious world that was popular in the 1990s, and which formed the setting for commercial globalization. Any realistic look around the world makes nonsense of this utopian concept. It is especially foolish when held by those in the defense industry. The reason America needs a defense industry to support a powerful military is because the world is not harmonious and stable. In the long run, the United States cannot outsource its security without putting its survival at risk.
Oh I have to admit, Oleo Troy has become my favorite poster. When I see his name in the sidebar, I just get giddy in anticipation of what nuttiness he holds this time.
Perhaps it’s time to throw in the towel? Seems you are not of this earth, and that everyone is out to kill babies all day every day.
America needs to wake up before it’s all over.Comments of
Owen E. Herrnstadt, Director
Trade & Globalization
International Association of Machinists & Aerospace Workers
before the
U.S.-China Economic and Security Review Commission
July 13, 2007
Washington, D.C.
I. Introduction
The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers (IAM) represents several hundred thousand workers in North America in a variety of industries, including ship building and ship repair, electronics, woodworking, transportation, and of course aerospace. IAM members work for both prime and sub-tier contractors, producing, manufacturing, assembling, servicing and maintaining a wide variety of systems and products directly and indirectly related to the defense industry. Our members have helped build some of the world’s largest and most successful defense companies — including Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and General Electric. In addition to basic concerns for our nation’s security, the IAM has a vested interest in ensuring that the U.S. defense industrial base is vibrant and robust, now and well into the future.
Given our members’ unique position as an essential and indispensable component of the U.S. defense industry, our continued warnings of the demise of the U.S. manufacturing base (including defense), and deep concerns over China’s massive growth in manufacturing, we are honored to appear before you today.
In order to fully understand the potential threat that China poses, it is necessary to begin with a summary of the current state of manufacturing and its impact on our defense industrial base. This is followed by a brief review of the rapid development of manufacturing in China. The last section of this testimony includes a summary of proposals that we urge U.S. policy makers to consider in addressing these matters.
II. U.S. Manufacturing is in Crisis
The importance of the U.S. defense industry to our nation’s economic and physical security cannot be questioned. The industry is responsible for designing, producing, and maintaining many of the world’s most sophisticated weapons systems. U.S. defense workers are indispensable to this industry. The loyalty, dedication, productivity, and skills that they display day after day has made this industry such a success. Their contributions have also helped to ensure our physical security.
The industry itself is also a vital factor in our nation’s economic security, directly and indirectly employing hundreds of thousands of individuals. Many U.S. communities have prospered because of the industry and various regions of our country have grown economically dependent on it. The industry is also responsible for creating and fostering new technologies which have assisted in the development of new industries, giving rise to further employment.
In view of the importance of the defense industry to our nation, it is inconceivable that policy makers would not take every possible step to maintain and strengthen it. Sadly, as outsourcing, offsets, co-production, and other similar activities grow, U.S. employment is shrinking. Overall, we have lost roughly three million jobs in the manufacturing industry in the past few years. In the aerospace industry for example, several hundred thousand jobs have been lost over the past several years.
Many years ago as the U.S. manufacturing industry began to leave our shores, it was a steady drip. That drip has become a tidal wave. As these jobs disappear to countries like China, our nation’s ability to manufacture basic goods and components, let alone develop new technologies critical for future industries, leaves us vulnerable to the uncertainties that await us.
Our shrinking industrial base raises fundamental questions about our future ability to meet our nation’s defense needs. The IAM hosted a conference a year ago bringing together defense workers, defense industry representatives, and industry experts to discuss this very matter. Participants were asked two basic questions:
“First, will the U.S. have the unique tooling to manufacture the means of its own defense in seven to ten years, and second, will the U.S. still have the workforce skills needed to operate those unique tools and manufacture those weapons by then?”
IAM President Tom Buffenbarger who moderated the roundtable discussion summarized the reality we now confront, “From ships to aircraft to land-based weapons systems, we have traded homegrown expertise and capability for low-cost foreign suppliers and a questionable supply chain that makes us vulnerable in a way we never were before.”
In reaching this conclusion, Buffenbarger noted several of the comments made by defense workers who participated in the discussion. Many of these comments described the outsourcing of manufacturing work to other countries. They noted that at the same time that once vibrant U.S. industries like shipbuilding were shrinking, the same industries were growing in other countries, like China. Similar comparisons were made to aerospace.
Participants were keenly aware that with the disappearance of these basic commercial and defense industries the our basic skills that are needed for our defense industrial base were also disappearing. One participant noted, “To do a good job, the first thing you have to have is good tools and good tooling. Yet, we are fast losing all of our tooling skills in this industry…” As the average age of “machinists and other skilled production workers” approaches 55 years, these much-needed skills are disappearing and disappearing fast. Buffenbarger summarized the discussion in the following fashion:
“As our industrial base shrinks, machine tooling capacity diminishes, and workforce skills vanish, we lose something uniquely American: the ingenuity and productivity of our people…[W]orse yet, we leave ourselves unprepared to deal with future contingencies. We will lack the capacity to meet threats head on.”
III. Manufacturing in China
While dramatic concerns over the health of the U.S. defense industrial base continue, it is well established that the general manufacturing industry in China is flourishing. Any question over China’s emergence as a manufacturing center can easily be answered by yet another report of just one more month of a phenomenal and record-setting trade surplus. As China consumes the world’s raw materials to fuel its manufacturing industry, many have raised concerns over basic shortages of those same materials which are necessary for industries here in the U.S. and for suppliers in other countries. Moreover, as China develops the capacity to enter such leading edge industries as aerospace, more concerns are raised with respect to future competition and the negative impact that it could have on what manufacturing may remain here at home.
The most bitter irony of course is that some of China’s industries have been aided by the transfer of production from the U.S. The IAM has been raising this alarm for several years now. We are only too mindful of the offset deals and other forms of outsourcing that continue to result in the transfer of technology and production to China in the commercial manufacturing industry.
As we have also stated, and has been well-documented previously by this Commission and many, many others, workers in China do not enjoy fundamental human rights. As the AFL-CIO explained by filing a trade petition against China with the United States Trade Representative, China’s failure to permit its workers to enjoy the right to form a union and to engage in collective bargaining is a market distorting mechanism which artificially holds down wages. As the petition also explains, this results in the loss of thousands of U.S. jobs.
IV. Developing Solutions
1. Acknowledge the growing threat to the U.S. defense industrial base that is created, in part, by outsourcing.
Outsourcing of commercial and defense manufacturing production poses a major threat to the U.S. defense industrial base and U.S. defense workers. Policy makers cannot begin to grapple with this urgent matter if they do not fully grasp the full extent of this growing crisis.
2. Develop and implement a comprehensive solution in a timely fashion.
The U.S. cannot wait any longer in devising solutions to the issues outlined in this testimony. Such solutions should be based on full consideration of a variety of matters both directly and indirectly related to our defense industrial base. These matters include currency valuation, non-enforcement of trade policies, outsourcing, and tax policies that reward corporations to produce outside of the U.S. Other policies are also needed to spur innovation and research and to make certain that the jobs that they create remain in the U.S.
Major efforts must be made to provide workers with the special skills that are required for work in this highly skilled industry. We must also provide incentives for workers to gain these skills. This means, among other things, that good and decent jobs must be waiting for them after they learn these skills. Workers must also be confidant that their jobs will continue well into the future.
One novel idea that has previously been mentioned involves the use of economic impact statements. The idea is relatively simple: Prior to any government award, contract, or assistance, a careful review must be made to determine (with as much precision as possible) what impact that activity will have on employment here at home. This review would include an analysis of the direct and indirect employment impact both in the short term and in the long term. The short and long term analysis would include consideration of transfers of technology and production.
3. Review the industrial policies of other nations, particularly China.
Much of what we know about China is that we don’t know as much as we need to. Ignorance is surely not “bliss” when it comes to food safety or safety issues involving a multitude of other products. While questions over pet food, toys, toothpaste, and tires have been in the news recently, questions over quality have been raised for several years. The time to ask fundamental questions about the materials and products we are receiving from China is now—not after it is too late.
Likewise, the same is true when it comes to assessing the impact that disruptions of our supply chains can have on our economy and on our defense industrial base. We must also undertake a careful review of whether we will have the raw materials when we need them. Questions over the scarcity of these materials and China’s role should be comprehensively and quickly explored. Of course, fundamental to all of these issues is the basic concern over transparency in China, especially with respect to manufacturing and its own defense industry (as well as human rights).
V. Conclusion
As mentioned at the outset, the IAM is grateful for the opportunity to appear before you today. We also extend our appreciation to the Commission for its tireless work on this highly critical matter. We hope our testimony has been helpful.
Yet I thought there’s only 12 mil illegals in the US. Where are the extras coming from?
“Actually, about 45% of the 47 million uninsured are non-citizens; and that it is unclear how many of those are illegal immigrants. It looks to be about 2 million less on the foreign born side, so about _19.1_million_ illegal aliens uninsured and included in the 47 million total.”
“”"I am sure the above is correct, which makes me ask why Blockbuster won’t give you one of their cards unless you have a land line? What’s up with that?”"”
I dunno. Might be a thing at just that store becaause I don’t recall them telling me that. They just wanted an ID and a credit card from me as I recall. It was along time ago when I signed up though.