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Open thread 9/21
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Sept. 21, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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187 Comments
“ I once saw a car wreck, I sat there in my car and watched as others rushed to the wreckage.I witnessed as those people reached in and help those that were wounded out of their wrecked cars and gave them first aid. I noticed as one of the rescuers pulled a cell phone out and called 9-11, then I was there when the EMS showed up and took the injured away. Before I left, a wrecker came and took the wrecked vehicles off the street and traffic was free to travel. I am so glad to have been able to help out, otherwise those poor people would have still been in those wrecked car!”.
Every time I hear someone pointing to Anbar province as the example of how our presents in Iraq is working to make it better. To me it sounds a lot like the above account of that car wreck, pointing to the “surge“ as being responsible for the Sunnis fighting Al-Qaeda. When in fact they were fighting Al-Qaeda independent of our efforts. And before the surge, the end result being that the Sunnis are just USING our troops to clean up so they will not have to. Doing the dirty work and risking American lives instead of their own.
The Neo-Cons accuse those oppose to a military solution of ignoring the realities on the ground and how we are having success now. I shake my head and think, Who is ignoring the realities on the ground?
JENA, La., Sept. 20 — Thousands of people from around the nation converged early Thursday on this rural town to protest what they consider the overzealous prosecution of six black high school students charged with beating a white schoolmate.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/20/AR2007092000259.html?hpid=topnews
It seems we’ve forgotten the victim here. One white kid was severely beaten by 6 black kids. If we can justify 6 against 1, it’s open season on whites. If the numbers had been reversed, we’d have race riots.
I wonder, XXX, if that white kid wouldnt have gotten that shotgun out of his pick up, if there would have been a fight??? Just a thought…
Not sure what direction you’re taking, Chas. That would have sure evened the odds, though.
I’m not trying to sound like a racist here, and I hate that anytime a white person talks about race, they have to start with a disclaimer. But we constantly talk about how we shouldn’t base decisions on skin color, and immediately justify something like the situation in Jena on skin color. Were there 3 nooses hung in a tree? Aparently. While that was in seriously bad taste, it did no physical harm. Did the kids who put the nooses up get off easy? Maybe. Does this justify 6 black kids beating the hell out of one white kid who wasn’t involved in the noose hanging? NO.
I’m one progressive independent who isn’t going to fall all over myself condemning my own race.
xxx there is much more to this story. I too, at first, thought “what’s the big deal, they’re guilty, they should do the time”. Nobody is questioning that they’re guilty nor doing the time. The problem is that place has been a hotbed of white on black violence and the powers that be are slapping the hands of the white guys while going overboard in the blacks.
There have been hangman’s nooses hung on the schoolgrounds and TWO white on black crimes that went basically ignored.
I’m not condemning my own race, but I can point out when something aint right.
XXX — The original story I read was that the white kid was only attacked because he went to his pick up, and got a shotgun… which the other kids took away from him, and then beat the crap out of him…
That would make it sound like a form of self-defense… maybe over kill… But then, that pharmacist killed the kid that had a gun on him recently…
I am just wondering why there hasnt been more released on the story of the shotgun… which, if I remember correctly, they caught the one black kid with the shotgun later… apparently, he took it home with him…
The entire thing sounds like a lot of twisted evidence, and incomplete stories…
I dont think I would be too happy if somebody got a shotgun out of their truck and aimed it in my general direction… would you??
And I think we could probably drop reference to “color” and look at it as just kids…
The shotgun kid and the Jena 6 and the white kid they beat up are totally separate incidents involving different people.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/jena6.asp
Chas-
i disagree, for one reason. It is about race. He got beat down because he was white. Al Sharpton and Jesse jackson and all the rest have made this about race. THe assholes have made the perpetrators the victims. The news has made it about race. TGhe thousands of “protesters” from all over the country have made it about race. The simple fact is, had it been six white guys beating one black buy down, they would be facing federal hate crimes charges along with the rest.
I don;t know about the shotgun part. Haven;t heard much about that. But if someone pulled a shotgun, I would have left—Not went to teach him a lesson.
Ok fine, leave the black guys in jail, and go prosecute the white guys JUST AS harshly.
Joe, that snopes article says the white guy that got beat up, WAS taunting the black guys over the nooses, and that he went to a function later that day.
Must not have beat him up that bad. I thought this was possibly a big beating…not so according to snopes. Sounds like it was truly a fight.
It’s not about exonerating the black kids..it’s about the fact that they got charged with attempted murder and it was recommended that they be tried as adults…it was the deparity in the CHARGES between the whites and the blacks. No one is denying the fact that these kids need to be punished and no one is saying they were justified in what they did..but they don’t deserve to charged with attempted murder. There were other fights going on over the nooses, and the white kids involved didn’t get the book thrown at them like the black kids did.
Isn’t justioce supposed to be color blind?
L J — I am only concerned that some degree of justice comes out of the case, and possibly a better racial climate in that town… This kind of violence, regardless of what “race” is involved, should not be swept under a rug, by anybody… school officials, or law enforcement…
From the looks of things there, it has been a botched case from the beginning…
Lets just hope the issue does not further complicate relations between the people in Jena…
Political_mom! That was the e-mail. Snopes checks urban legends and origins of e-mails.
You have to read the origins.
I agree with some of you. The white students should have been suspended longer and made to clean up the school, I disagree with expelled. The gang of blacks, I agree should have been tried as juveniles and with misdemeanor assault, but no expulsion from school either. Jail time or attempted murder is going way to far. So I do get the tension is hot on this situation.
Here is a good Q&A about the Jena 6.
http://www.thetowntalk.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS/70915030
I’m sorry, but the prosecutor made it about race for not charging with even a misdemeanor – let alone a hate crime – the white kids for hanging the nooses from the tree on the school grounds. Nooses hanging from trees in southern Mississippi are a very clear, distinct, and ominous threat to every African-American who lives, works and goes to school in Jena. And then he charges the Jena 6 – who should have been charged with battery or juvenile deliquency – with attempted aggravated second degree murder, and claims that a tennis shoe was a weapon? And then he holds a press conference where not a single solitary token African-American would stand behind him at the podium – it was just a sea of white? There was a lengthy newstory yesterday afternoon on CNN I think about Jena. This community is a paragon of de facto segregation and racism. A white minister from Jena confirmed that the impression of Jena that the rest of the world has come to see in the news . . . is the right one.
So don’t fool yourself into believing that -before Rev. Sharpton and Jesse Jackson held their their protest – that justice was going on down there. It was justice only in the eyes of the prosecutor.
From the sounds of it. The kid that got second degree assault charges is a repeat offender.
Do any of the “Jena Six” defendants have a criminal past?
Bell has been adjudicated of four previous crimes of violence -– two for battery and two for criminal damage to property. He was placed on probation until his 18th birthday -– Jan. 18, 2008. Juvenile records are normally sealed, but Bell’s juvenile record was discussed during a hearing to set bond after his June adult felony conviction. If any of the other students have previous convictions, it hasn’t yet been made public.
Failing to muster the support, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid says the war now belonged to Republicans and vowed they would have to go on record again and again as siding with President Bush.
http://kansas.com/wireupdates/story/180466.html
The bills they are trying to pass may be failing, but they are making the republicans go on record. Finally, this is what I have been waiting for. Not this non-binding resolution bullsh**.
“The bills they are trying to pass may be failing, but they are making the republicans go on record.”Posted by: TDT
Since they are the Majority how come they cannot get bills passed?
Perhaps values boy saw this video and that is what caused his little pissy pants hissy fit yesterday?
hehehehehehhe…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0IvNydHFhQ
TD, with all due respect…
“Harry Reid says the war now belonged to Republicans and vowed they would have to go on record again and again as siding with President Bush.”
THAT’S BULLSHIT!
It looks to me like it is the DEMOCRATS who are going on record as supporting preznit bush again and again. They cant fold fast enough.
Hell, I have cheap LAWN chairs that dont fold as fast as the democrats…
Ok fine, leave the black guys in jail, and go prosecute the white guys JUST AS harshly.
Posted by: political_mom | September 21, 2007 at 08:42 AM
Which white guys? ANd for what charge? WHat black guy got beat unconscious?
School ground fight.
Local news.
Hank
“I’m sorry, but the prosecutor made it about race for not charging with even a misdemeanor – let alone a hate crime – the white kids for hanging the nooses from the tree on the school grounds.”
yeah. Okay. SO hanging a noose on a tree is equivalent to beating a kid unconscious. And what misdemeanor should they have charged with? And what hate crime?
And this quote from Mel Gilles says it all concerning the DLC democrats.
“And watch the Democratic Party leadership walk on eggshells, try to meet him, please him, wash the windows better, get out that spot, distance themselves from gays and civil rights. See them cry for the attention and affection and approval of the President and his followers. Watch us squirm. Watch us descend into a world of crazy-making, where logic does not work and the other side tells us we are nuts when we rely on facts. A world where, worst of all, we begin to believe we are crazy.”
SO hanging a noose on a tree is equivalent to beating a kid unconscious.Posted by: littlejohn
As one that grew up in the South, the answer is “Yes”.
Mybe VB and the NeoCons can take their message from this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRi8tswSkB4
As one that grew up in the South, the answer is “Yes”.
Posted by: hud | September 21, 2007 at 09:19 AM
As another that grew up in the South — NO –
SO hanging a noose on a tree is equivalent to beating a kid unconscious.Posted by: littlejohn
As one that grew up in the South, the answer is “Yes”.
Posted by: hud | September 21, 2007 at 09:19 AM
So, symbolism equates beating the hell out of someone. Evey time some little gangbanger spreads his message by tagging, we should be the shit out him, right?
The kid that got beat, he didn;t have anything to do with the nooses.
Since they are the Majority how come they cannot get bills passed?
Posted by: hud | September 21, 2007 at 09:12 AM
Because they need 60 votes to get them passed, and they only have 51? in the senate. You know that. Use your common sense.
Perhaps, hanging a noose on a tree should be put on the books as illegal before we start making that judgement.
“The kid that got beat, he didn;t have anything to do with the nooses.”Posted by: littlejohn
That is the reason the reason nooses hangin in a tree is very serious business. It becomes an instant black and white thing and innocent people get bad things done to them.
“Because they need 60 votes to get them passed, and they only have 51? in the senate. You know that.”Posted by: TDT
Yes, I am aware they need 60 votes. But I did not know the vote yesterday was 51 to 49.
Bet is was not.
Obviously, hanging a noose in a tree is very serious business. it was also very stupid. Tin pointed head stupid. Like burning flag stupid, and burning the president in effigy stupid. Maybe Like Sharpton and the aTarwana Brawley affair stupid. Maybe even more stupid, except for the Sharpton thing, because it denotes a threat. I will agree with that.
I guess getting beat by six guys isn;t. Nor is it a “message” to other whites who had nothing to do with the nooses.
“Because they need 60 votes to get them passed”
Not all of them, TD. Some bills, like the funding bills, need only a simple majority.
But here is a little insight for ya.
Reid, et al, AGREED that they needed 60 votes. It wasnt set in stone.
They dont even PRETEND anymore that they are not also in bed with bushco.
Read the 9:31 post TD. It explains it all.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/did-bush-make-p.html#c83609769
I know very little about the incident so I’m not forming an opinion.
But I don’t like civil rights leaders making a big thing out of this and having media compare it to a King march.
Black civil rights in the 50’s and 60’s were all about meeting violence and hate with non-violent moral force, SUFFERING for the cause was a given.
Protecting people who beat other people up had no part of what I remember about the Civil rights movement . . .
KFG – There were 56 yes votes for this amendment. It will be unlikely they will be able to force any of these amendments through, since repubs won’t stand up for the troops, but my point is, they are finally making EVERYONE go on record!! We will finally be able to see who is truly supporting our troops, and who is not.
See, the 60 vote thing. That’s BS. By both parties. Relieves them of the responsibility of getting things done. Their answer “well, they will just fillibuster” okay. fine with that. GO back to the real fillibuster days. Goe back to the days when a fillibuster meant some jerk would stand for hours and address the Senate, until they finally overrode him, or gave up.This gentrification of the fillibuster rules is nothing more than senators with no balls.
KSGrrl–
That’s the old Harry Reid. The new Harry Reid is taking a hard line on the war: end it now.
TD, take the time to read the link about WHY it took 60 votes and not a simple majority.
“That’s the old Harry Reid.”
Uh, that was YESTERDAY Harry Reid. Did he have some road to damascus conversion overnight?
LJ–
The Dems did that once already.
How many times do they have to do it to satisify you?
Yes, I am aware they need 60 votes. But I did not know the vote yesterday was 51 to 49.
Bet is was not.
Posted by: hud | September 21, 2007 at 09:33 AM
No it was not 51-49, it was 56-44.
Oh, hell, KFG, now you’re making me Google.
I hate that, LOL.
“littlejohn” –
(is that short for “little johnson?”)
The white kid who got “beat up by six guys” had a welt on his cheek and a black eye. I’ve seen the photo. Hardly the same as a lynching. And they beat him up to prevent him from getting his shotgun out of his pick-up truck.
The white kids who beat up black kids at Jenna High School got slaps on the wrist. The black kids who gave the white kid with a shotgun a black eye got charged as adults with felonies.
Pleas, “littlejohnson,” try to get your facts in order before you post.
LJ–
The Dems did that once already.
How many times do they have to do it to satisify you?
Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 21, 2007 at 09:38 AM
Did what? A real fillibuster? or rquire one? When was the last time? BOth parties know the politics of this. Making is impossible to do hardly anything without have 60 votes is nothing but “no balls”
Agreed lj.
“This gentrification of the fillibuster rules is nothing more than senators with no balls.”
Hell, the repukes dont even HAVE to fillibuster. All they have to do is THREATEN to fillibuster and the democrats’ nutsacks shrink and they pee their pants.
MAKE them fillibuster. MAKE the debate public. Put the cards on the table and let’s see the money where the mouth is.
I see harry reid saying stuff, his lips are moving, but his actions dont match his words. I think that is called a lack of integrity, and with it comes a loss of power. And that racket is ALL OVER the senate democrats.
But then, who are you gonna believe. Reid? Or those lying eyes of yours…
“The white kid who got “beat up by six guys” had a welt on his cheek and a black eye. I’ve seen the photo. Hardly the same as a lynching.”
He was knocked unconscious. ANd nobody was lynched. Get your facts straight. And my Johnson is known of your business.
What lj said at 9:41. WHEN was the last fillibuster?
It sure as HELL wasnt with the roll over confirmation of Alito and Roberts. Or the questioning of the DOJ officials. Or… hell, pick one.
But ya know, the dems have something up their sleeves for the future (big eye roll).
Really. REALLY. Something BIG. NEXT time. They’ll get those bushies. NEXT time.
And they really, REALLY mean it now…
“MAKE them fillibuster. MAKE the debate public. Put the cards on the table and let’s see the money where the mouth is.”
True dat.
And a 100% guarantee of the Dems getting the whithouse in ‘08? Make GW VETO the bills. Y’all won’t even have to spend money on TV ads after that.
“And my Johnson is known of your business.” — Posted by: littlejohnson
—
Oh! *You* were the guy tapping your foot in the next stall?
Sorry I didn’t respond.
“And a 100% guarantee of the Dems getting the whithouse in ‘08? Make GW VETO the bills. Y’all won’t even have to spend money on TV ads after that.”
Agreed Solly, but then, the corporate MSM wouldnt like losing all those advertising dollars and actually having to REPORT shit and do investigations and stuff….
Nope. Better to rake in billions on political ads that merely illustrate that the NEW boss will be exactly like the OLD boss.
Jesus WEPT! To quote Michael Moore, “Dude, where’s my country?”
“Sorry I didn’t respond.”
Posted by: Long Time Poster, First Time Lurker | September 21, 2007 at 09:46 AM
Worried about johnson size, sorry he didn’t respond.
Things that make you go hmmmmmmmm.
LTP-
Busted, aren;t you. Nothing better than personal attacks. Yeah, I bet you are sorry that you didn;t respond to whoever they guy next to you was. Probably already to late, you were mnost likely in the throes of self manipulated passion.
Capn, as to your secrecy in Government post yesterday, I somewhat agree with you.
While there needs to be more secrecy in time of war, that does not mean that we throw the Constitution out the window and eliminate Due Process and other rights for American Citizens.
That said, there are some who would throw out the Constitution whenever it suited the needs of their political agenda (eg. gun registration/ban proposals, and free speech restrictions – McCain/Feingold).
At the same time, those same people cry bloody murder when certain Constitutional rights (eg. Due Process/Patriot Act)appear to be violated.
I say follow the Constitution in ALL cases, and follow the Amendment Process if you want to change something.
As for the Bush administration, it’s almost over. If the Democrats are really better at defending the Constitution, then they have the majority now to correct whatever you and your party sees needs to be corrected.
I challenge all to look to the current Presidential candidates, and drill-down on the details of their plans, and more importantly – what their past actions have been, to see which candidate is likely to best enforce and defend the Constitution of the United States.
I don’t know the criminal code in Mississippi, but a few possible crimes with which the three white kids could have been conceivably charged for handing the nooses from the tree are disturbing the peace, making a terroristic threat, and assault. Instead, they were suspended from school briefly. The problem down there isn’t that the Jena 6 should be protected from being held accountable for their actions. Obviously, they should be prosecuted – but not grossly overcharged as was the recent conclusion of the appellate court who ruled that Bell should not have been charged as an adult. The problem is that there are two de facto justice systems in play down there because similar crimes aren’t met with similar indictments and sentences.
You’ve heard the expression, “all hat, no cattle”?
Check this out–
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/09/21/wbush121.xml
President Bush may like to be seen as a swaggering tough guy with a penchant for manly outdoor pursuits, but in a new book one of his closest allies has said he is afraid of horses.
George W Bush saddles up,but where is the horse?
Vicente Fox, the former president of Mexico, derided his political friend as a “windshield cowboy” – a cowboy who prefers to drive – and “the cockiest guy I have ever met in my life”.
He recalled a meeting in Mexico shortly after both men had been elected when Mr Fox offered Mr Bush a ride on a “big palomino” horse.
Mr Fox, who left office in December, recalled Mr Bush “backing away” from the animal.
”A horse lover can always tell when others don’t share our passion,” he said, according to the Washington Post.
Mr Bush has spoken of his fondness for shooting doves and cutting brush on his Crawford ranch in Texas, which he bought in 1999.
The property reportedly has no horses and only five cattle.
The resulting “filibuster” can ordinarily be stopped only by a “cloture” vote, which requires 60 of the 100 Senators (a supermajority) to vote to end debate, and bring the bill or nomination to a final vote.
Okay, I really don’t know anything about the mechanics of Congress, but this kind of makes sense. You either debate forever and never get to vote, or you have a vote but have to get 60 instead of 51 votes. At least it gets the Congressmen on record.
And Capn, your article posted yesterday, discussed incremental ‘little’ changes in laws, until the point of no return was reached, and Freedom was gone.
What do you think both Republicans and Democrats do EVERY TIME they pass a law?
I’d like to see them pass a law that requires 10 laws to be deleted every time they pass 1.
Start with the IRS and go to a flat tax or national sales tax and throw out 100,000 pages of regs.
KFG–
I understand the frustration with Dems and share it, but let’s get real.
The new boss will be exactly like the old boss?
You think if president-in-exile Al Gore would have been in office, we’d be bogged down in Iraq with almost 4,000 Americans dead?
No way. No effing way.
Perfection is still the enemy of the good. We have to fight REPUKES with the party we’ve got, not the party we want.
“on’t know the criminal code in Mississippi, but a few possible crimes with which the three white kids could have been conceivably charged for handing the nooses from the tree are disturbing the peace, making a terroristic threat, and assault.”
Neither do I. I think the disturbing the peace charge might have stuck. THe terroristic threat not so much, the assault, not at all. Assault (as I understand it) has to be directed towards an individual. They might have even been able to be charged as inciting a riot, had one occurred. One didn;t I think 2nd degree murder was overcharging, however. Assasult and battery would have been better. As I understand it, the charge came from the fact that they were kicking and beating an unconscios person. That seems to me to warrant more than a simple assault charge, but clearly not murder.
By way of Boortz-
Hey Libs, trying to escape the negatives of the “Liberal” label? Thinking of calling yourself a “Progressive”? Has an enlightened sound to it doesnt it?
Ahh, what’s old is new.
snip”This dark side of the Progressive Era, thankfully, came to an end. Its belief that there are those among us who know better and shouldn’t be constrained by a fixed Constitution and limited government, unfortunately, did not. To escape the baggage of the term progressives, they started calling themselves liberals. Today’s liberals, like yesterday’s progressives, believe wholeheartedly that the answer to all of societies problems lies in the use of government by enlightened leaders to effectuate progress and view constitutional constraints as archaic and quaint.”
http://townhall.com/columnists/MattMayer/2007/09/20/liberals_are_now_progressives_again
The “right” to buy political favors with huge political donations (bribes) is not protected by the Constitution, Max.
Neo-Cons, putting the CON into the Constitution . . .
Hey Apophis,
My kids go to a private school and are not exposed to ebonics. Which government indoctrination center (you know these as community schools) would they best learn this? I know you will know the answer because you are the blog leader for the government school system.
I don’t know the criminal code in Mississippi, but a few possible crimes with which the three white kids could have been conceivably charged for handing the nooses from the tree are disturbing the peace, making a terroristic threat, and assault. Instead, they were suspended from school briefly. The problem down there isn’t that the Jena 6 should be protected from being held accountable for their actions. Obviously, they should be prosecuted – but not grossly overcharged as was the recent conclusion of the appellate court who ruled that Bell should not have been charged as an adult. The problem is that there are two de facto justice systems in play down there because similar crimes aren’t met with similar indictments and sentences.
Posted by: kelly
Jena is in Louisiana not Mississippi so MS law is not relevant to the case. IIRC, LA law does not follow English common law like the rest of the country.
Facinating, Heckler. That post proves that times change and language changes.
Too bad you conservatives are still conservatives, huh?
Ah, I see the campaign against Bush continues. NEWS FLASH: He’s not running again guys!
The Democrats are going to run in 2008 with the same approach that failed them in 2000 and 2004, that is they are running as NOT being Bush!
What is it the Democrats are for?
More laws and government regulation.
Higher taxes.
More government mandated programs.
More government control over our lives including our health care.
Hillary will ban handguns and severly restrict other guns.
Surrender in Iraq (course they could stop it now if they wanted to).
Democrats spend money just as fast as Republicans – didn’t see any restraint from either party in the last 7 years.
Neither party solved the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis.
Neither party established a program to make American Energy Independent and more Environmentally Friendly.
I see no advantage to voting for a Democrat, though no one can brag too much about Republicans either.
The “right” to buy political favors with huge political donations (bribes) is not protected by the Constitution, Max.
Neo-Cons, putting the CON into the Constitution . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | September 21, 2007 at 10:06 AM
Are you saying campaign donations should be unlimited and hidden?
Ebonics — or urban black dialect — is not taught in any public school system in the country.
It was STUDIED by teachers in Oakland so that they would have a better idea of what the kids were saying to them.
The rest of the story is typical distortion from the right-wing noise machine.
Max–
I’m saying exactly that McCain-Feingold does not contravene the first amendment or any other part of the Constitution.
When dtc says his kids go to private school to escape “ebonics,” that’s code for I hate and fear minorities and my kids are going to self-segregate from them.
We know the code words.
Capn
No, it proves that a Liberal hates the constraints of the constitution just as much today as ever. Whatever you call yourselves.
“All that progressives ask or desire is permission to interpret the Constitution according to the Darwinian principle.”
It sure does Capn! Free speech rights are restricted by advertising limits prior to elections, campaign donation amounts are restricted to name a couple of items.
I say let them take their gloves off. Make donations unlimited while also making them transparent. Ensure the public reporting of who is giving how much is timely and accurate. Anybody should be able to buy advertising whenever they want.
These “bundlers” then would disappear, as those wanting to give more than $2,300 would not have to hide behind a bundler anymore.
Capn
You’ve got nothing new, do you.
Just put a new wrapper on it.
“You think if president-in-exile Al Gore would have been in office, we’d be bogged down in Iraq with almost 4,000 Americans dead?”
Uh no, capn.
But then, he isnt president, is he?
My point exactly….
Heckler I am laughing my ASS off at “town hall” telling progressives and liberals how the cow ate the cabbage.
That’s like DU telling conservatives the same thing.
heheheheheh
Oh, and how did you like values boy surrendering the “values” label?
Looks to me like you ought to sweep your own back porch instead of worrying about “libruls”.
Max – That dog won’t hunt. Those hoary old slogans aren’t persuasive anymore. You oughta know that but, if you don’t, well . . .
What is it the Democrats are for?
More laws and government regulation, when those laws protect health-safety and reign in power of corporations over individuals
Higher taxes, for the people that have benefitted from society–they should pay their fair share. Meanwhile taxes on the poor and struggling middle class should be cut.
More government mandated programs, if those programs are fully funded and shown to acheive their goals — No Child Left Behind is a gov’t program that would be immediately scrapped by Dems, and the sooner the better.
More government control over our lives including our health care, as opposed to what we have now–more CORPORATE control over our lives, with giant multinationals telling us what operations we can have and what food we can eat.
Hillary will ban handguns and severly restrict other guns, just like Bill did when he was president. (For the record, I opposed the so-called assault rifle ban which was a hoax from the beginning.)
Surrender in Iraq (course they could stop it now if they wanted to). 1. FALSE–Congressional Dems cannot over-ride the Republican threat of filibuster. 2. Also FALSE–There can be no “surrender” because we already won the war. “Mission Accomplished” remember? From here on out, it’s the Iraqis’ mess to clean up.
Democrats spend money just as fast as Republicans – didn’t see any restraint from either party in the last 7 years. FALSE–Reagan doubled the national debt (as a percentage of GDP), HW Bush increased it even more, Clinton-Gore reduced it by some 20 percent, W increased it back to where it was before . . .
Republic pres = deficit spendingDemocratic pres = reduces deficit
Neither party solved the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis. True, however the Dems didn’t make it WORSE by piratizing it.
Neither party established a program to make American Energy Independent and more Environmentally Friendly. True, however Bush didn’t have to renounce his campaign pledge to reduce CO2 the minute the oval office door hit him in the ass.
KFG
Your rants on values boy are lost on me, I have no idea who your talking about. Someone you have a crush on??
Lib.=Prog.= same shit, different day.
What a surprise that what I write goes right over heckie’s head!
Here ya go heckie. Wouldnt want you to actually READ the opinion pages….
http://www.kansas.com/opinion/castillo/story/179628.html
At least now we know where values boy got the “progressive vs liberal” spin.
Town Hall.
That just about says it all…..
KFG
Was there anything factually inaccurate about the Townhall piece?
It’s just laughable that Liberals are calling themselves something else to escape a negative image, only to call themselves what a previous generation tried to escape. Brilliant!
Please name one person who posts here, other than the captain, who runs away from the LIBERAL label and insists on being progressive.
I think that is more DLC crap. And telling that heckie believes it.
GO RAHM!
What?! I don’t believe I run from the label “liberal,” KFG.
I posted JFK’s speech “Why I am a liberal” once on this forum . . . which shows what we should do with the word–redifine it by the people who believe it instead of letting it be defined by the people who hate the concept of liberalism.
Actually Socialist would be a more accurate description.
Some don’t run away from that, most do.
If you are for the redistribution of wealth, then why be ashamed of the most accurate word to describe this?
KFG, we won a ton of senate and house seats this past election and BARELY eked out a majority. The Republicans last year had us by the balls, there was nothing to be done. A few filibusters, remember, the Repukes were going to take that option away…remember?
You have been a part of government, and you were kicked out. Why didn’t you change it all by your lonesome? Not enough people to vote for you? How do you expect the Dems to be able to change things IF THEY SIMPLY DON”T HAVE THE VOTES?
I’m pissed off about it too, yes, I am, but until we get a solid majority, there is really nothing more to be done. I swear woman, you cut off your nose to spite your face. Put the blame where it REALLY belongs…ON THE REPUBICANS.
Heckler, real slow for you now.
Matt is an OPINION columnist. Therefor, you cant judge his column as FACTUALLY accurate.
Duh. It is called OPINION because it is his opinion, not a factual report. (big eye roll)
But just to humor you, here is an example.
“Today’s liberals, like yesterday’s progressives, believe wholeheartedly that the answer to all of societies problems lies in the use of government by enlightened leaders to effectuate progress and view constitutional constraints as archaic and quaint.”
I am a liberal. I do not “believe wholeheartedly that the answer to all of societies problems lies in the use of government”.
So.. he’s lying about me. Not factually accurate, just his opinion.
And this? ” view constitutional constraints as archaic and quaint”.
You’ve jumped the shark again heckie. Remember it is LIBERALS who want bush to obey the constitution as something other than a “goddam piece of paper”.
But thanks for playing. We are amused, and we do encourage you to try again.
KFG
What’s “values boy” got to do with me? You got me mixed up with someone else again?
On another topic. I’ve seen you talk a lot about economic development in Western Kansas a little but never paid much attention until you highlighted that “affordable housing” boondoggle yesterday. I believe in the past I’ve heard you say that business incentives and jobs are not the key to economic development in the west. If that is so, what is the key? I grew up out west and it’s sad to watch my hometown dry up and blow away.
Heck–
Since you’re so easily amused, here’s one that will make your sides ache:
Brent Castillo debuted his new column a year or so ago by calling himself a “values voter.” That’s why KFG gave him the name “values boy” which stuck here on the Blog.
A couple of days ago, he comes out with his latest column saying that “values voter” is no longer a good term to use for people like him.
In other words, he’s throwing himself over the side of the once-mighty Titanic that was BushCo.
Another rat who doesn’t want to go down with Worst. President. Ever’s sinking ship . . .
Liberals are proud of the label, and I don’t think progressive is anything different than liberal.
The republicans have done such a great job of acting like to be liberal is such a disgusting thing…well I don’t know why, we’re all happy with the term.
You’ve jumped the shark again heckie. Remember it is LIBERALS who want bush to obey the constitution as something other than a “goddam piece of paper”. ksfarmgrrl
Wrong farmgirl, the Liberals only give a darn about the Constitution when it fits their political agenda.
I see BOTH parties throwing out the Constitution. Soon it all may be gone.
KFG
Read slowly… a quote from Wilson
“All that progressives ask or desire is permission to interpret the Constitution according to the Darwinian principle.”
The phrase “Living Constitution” started with early Progressives.
Why is it sad, Heckler. You should be GLAD, my friend. That’s the unseen hand of the marketplace at work. The wonderful natural inevitable force that is free-market capitalism is saying to your hometown–you’re inefficient and unnecessary, go pursue other more profitable ventures.
The disruption and chaos of the free-market is joyous and wonderful to you CONs. Rejoice in the ghost town. Those people can all have new, more productive jobs stocking shelves at Wal-Mart!
Capn
And this has to do with me how???
Who is wilson? And what makes you think he speaks for progressives? Or liberals? Sounds like he is distinctly ANTI liberal!
And Max, you are SO full of crap. It is the conservatives who only invoke the constitution when it suits their needs.
The key to development in the west is population. Jobs dont bring population, population brings jobs. Read Richard Florida if you dont believe me.
If economic development people out here are focusing on ANYTHING other than population, they are pissing in the wind.
Something they are really good at:) Look at the success they’ve had with jobs creating population.
(crickets chirping)
The other key is WATER. Quality of life “flows” from that. Without water, you might as well “turn out the lights, the party’s over”.
Something governor leadership OBVIOUSLY doesnt give a rat’s ass about. Not while the ethanol boondoggle is in full play.
She’s as beholdin’ to big ag and big irrigators as she is to the DLC…
If we want change in the government and the constitution upheld, it’s the duty of Kansans to VOTE OUT OF OFFICE the Republicans in this state. Namely, Roberts, Tiahrt, Moran, and Brownback.
.. and a little more evidence of how poorly the “jobs brings people” meme works…
Hays likes to brag that at any given time, they have 400 jobs open that can not be filled.
And yet they lost population last year. So.. jobs bring people? Not in Hays. Or Russell, no matter HOW much water they suck out of Cedar Bluff. They are still bleeding population.
Even with all those jobs…
Okay, Heckler–
I can see now why you’re such a staunch conservative.
Not conservative people are stupid, but all stupid people are conservative.
Dont forget Nancy Boyda pmom. She votes with bushco EVERY TIME on the war and the unconstitutional actions it precipitated.
Not all conservative people are stupid . . .
Which is why CONs win so many elections. They’ve got the stupid base.
And that’s a helluva base.
KFG
But how do you get population without jobs to create income?
I personally wouldnt dream of moving someplace unless I had a descent job lined up.
The only people I know moving to Western Kansas are people retiring out there.
And as for what I said yesterday about the lunacy of subsidized housing for rural kansas…
No population, no demand for housing. So.. if there is no demand, why is the government stepping in to shovel money into a plan that flies in the FACE of basic economics?
An ANSWER looking for a PROBLEM if I ever saw one…
Your tax dollars at work.
Heckler’s so damn dumb, he doesn’t even connect his knee-jerk support for giant corporations to run his life with the inevitable decline of small-town life in places like Western Kansas.
Here it is in a song format:
Youngstown, by Bruce Springsteen
Well my daddy come on the Ohio works
When he come home from World War Two
Now the yard’s just scrap and rubble
He said “Them big boys did what Hitler couldn’t do.”
These mills they built the tanks and bombs
That won this country’s wars
We sent our sons to Korea and Vietnam
Now we’re wondering what they were dyin’ for
Here in YoungstownHere in YoungstownMy sweet Jenny I’m sinkin’ downHere darlin’ in Youngstown
“I personally wouldnt dream of moving someplace unless I had a descent job lined up.”
Ever heard of telecommuting? You can have an income without a local job. Lots of folks live and work in this region, but their “job” originates in Denver or Dallas or New York. We could recruit telecommuters with our low cost of housing and great schools.
If we had great schools, that is.
Ever heard of entrepreneurship? You can have an income without a “job”. It’s called self employement.
The trick out here, though, is that the market for your business must be OUTSIDE western kansas. We’ve already dropped below the critical line in terms of local population being able to support business.
Look at all the businesses that have closed out here. By and large, they are the ones that served a LOCAL clientel. Like grocery stores, clothing stores, and pharmacies. Not enough pop out here to support them.
But the businesses that success, like Swift Bullet in Quinter, Brush Art in Downs, and Flame Engineering in LaCrosse serve markets that do NOT depend on population. They are growing, but cant find enough workers.
Why? Not enough population to create a workforce. Duh.
My four point plan?
1. Recruit telecommuters to increase the population base.
2. Recruit and assist entrepreneurs to increase the population base AND the tax base. Jobs are an added bonus.
(Both of those activities require a GREAT quality of life. Like schools, recreation, social networking opportunities, etc. These need to be shored up out here before ANY population growth or recruitment of new POPULATION will occur.)
3. Focus on creating new service businesses to serve the newly grown population. This is also a quality of life issue. No one wants to live where the nearest dry cleaners is 40 miles away.
4. Once these pillars are in place, MARKET YOUR COMMUNITY as a great place to live, not just a good place to do business. And be serious about the marketing. Advertising in economic development journals ONLY reaches other e.d. people.
I know the Denver Post is expensive, but how’s the alternative working? People cant live in your town if they dont know about it.
Too simple? Probably. Not enough political hay in it to interest the KS Dept of Commerce…
Capn
What do “giant corporations” have to do with the change in the economics of farming?
Since your such a committed socialist why don’t you point out a shining example of your style of government. Somewhere in the world there must be a good example of it ehh?
KFG
My brother-inlaw does the telecommuting thing. Lives in Colby. But he still has to travel a lot, big problem, air service. Has to drive to McCook NE to fly out.
Yup, that’s what I mean.
Doesn’t even know what he doesn’t know.
Try reading a little more and turn off the Rush, Heckler.
As far as better government goes, you might consider the Euro which has risen to a new high against the steadily declining dollar.
Ditto for the English pound and the Swiss franc.
“Socialist” Europe seems to be doing fine. How’s your hometown again?
What is it the Democrats are for?
snip
No Child Left Behind is a gov’t program that would be immediately scrapped by Dems, and the sooner the better.
Surrender in Iraq (course they could stop it now if they wanted to). 1. FALSE–Congressional Dems cannot over-ride the Republican threat of filibuster. 2. Also FALSE–There can be no “surrender” because we already won the war. “Mission Accomplished” remember? From here on out, it’s the Iraqis’ mess to clean up.
Democrats spend money just as fast as Republicans – didn’t see any restraint from either party in the last 7 years. FALSE–Reagan doubled the national debt (as a percentage of GDP), HW Bush increased it even more, Clinton-Gore reduced it by some 20 percent, W increased it back to where it was before . . .
Republic pres = deficit spendingDemocratic pres = reduces deficit
Neither party solved the Social Security/Medicare fiscal crisis. True, however the Dems didn’t make it WORSE by piratizing it.
Posted by: CapnAmerica
NCLB supported by Ted Kennedy, a Republican?
The threat of a filibuster is not the same as a filibuster. KFG made the point they should have forced the filibuster issue. Your contention in another post about staying with the party you have shows you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. The Whigs held to the same concept and look at where they are now. If your party is screwing you over and the other party is screwing you over, its time to join another party or form one of your own.
GDP per cent is not a good basis. A better basis for your argument is to show the actual dollar amounts of the increases to the DEBT under the four prez you mention. Reagan, Bush I, and Bush II did make it much worse when you look at actual dollar amounts. The madness needs to stop, and it needs to reverse itself. In the near future, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and interest on the DEBT will constitute most of our federal budget. Forget about defense, education, and anything else.
Republic pres = deficit spendingDemocratic pres = reduces deficit
Invalid argument. The pres. sends a budget to Congress, Congress makes changes to the budget so Congress is responsible for the final budget. The Dem Congress could have reduced the Reagan and Bush budgets to be in line with earlier budgets, but they didnt. The Rep Congress under Clinton could have increased budgets a lot more, but they didnt. It is when one party controls both the Exec and the Leg bodies, we get shafted worse. It looks like a Dem prez and Rep Congress are the best way to reduce the deficit. By your reasoning,
Dem Cong/Rep Pres increased def
Rep Cong/Dem Pres decreased def
Rep Cong/Rep Pres increased def
We need to create a balanced budget with dedicated funds to pay down the DEBT at the beginning of the FY and not let anymore spending be added during the FY. If something outside the budget happens, something inside the present budget has to be cut. The dedicated funds for paying down the DEBT need to be almost sacrosanct to avoid being used to pay for other things. We as taxpayers are not allowed to spend more than we make unless we have savings to offset the increased spending. The govt used to operate in a similar manner. The old Guns/Butter argument. More Guns, less Butter. More Butter, less Guns.
How did the Rep make the SS issue worse? Prez Bush plan was bad, but not having a plan is worse.
My 401K is doing significantly better than my projected SS payout. I computed both using my current 401K projections to SSs yearly statement for projected retirement funds. I put in the same amount in my 401K as SS withholds from my paycheck. I use a diversified investment strategy. I based on my 401K projections on a very pessimistic ROI, about half of its 10 year average.
KFG is right about the population issue. I lived in northwest Kansas for several years a while back. Each year the high school students (9 out of 10) would leave permanently. They can get better jobs, higher paying jobs in bigger cities with more to do. Southeastern and southwestern Kansas are experiencing the same problem. My granddads hometown lost 1/3 of its population between the last two censuses. The western Congressional District keeps getting bigger and bigger to offse those moving to the bigger towns.
I am a moderate third party member and agree with those who believe the two party system is the cause of our problems. Vote all the bums out.
My little (250 people) SWKan home town keeps reinventing itself with new agricultural businesses.
When the water dries up though, it will be among the first to go.
and BTW, Heckler, you can’t be serious asking “What do “giant corporations” have to do with the change in the economics of farming?” That or you’ve never driven beyond the city limites of Wichita.
http://newappeal.blogspot.com/2006/12/raise-less-corn-old-slogan-reborn.html
http://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/publicaffairsbooks-cgi-bin/display?book=9781586481155
In Raising Less Corn, More Hell George B. Pyle shows us how the famous breadbasket of America is being bought up by large corporations, who produce less food per acre than the small farmer, push those farmers further into debt, pollute the earth and wear out the soil, and even license the very stuff of life: grain and seed. Meanwhile those farmers are promised a better future if they play ball with the corporations, but caught between the brutal new market and antiquated government support systems, they are forced to grow too much of the wrong crops — crops that will be fed to animals who cannot tolerate them, shipped as dubious “aid” to struggling countries, drive the farmer’s take-home pay ever downward, and make us all fatter.
See also George Lakoff “Whose Freedom,” and
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14321590
Robert Reich’s new book, “SuperCapitalism”
September 11, 2007 · We love low prices, sure, but we frown at the things companies do to get us good deals — like paying low wages. In his book Supercapitalism, economist Robert Reich looks at the divided mind of the consumer and citizen.
Reich subtitles his book “The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everyday Life,” and in it he asks tough questions about American priorities: “Why has capitalism become so triumphant and democracy so enfeebled? Are these two trends connected? What, if anything, can be done to strengthen democracy?”
Capn
Name the country Capn, where would you move to if you got tired of the good old USA? Someplace where millions of people risk their life to get to every year?
“Socialist” Europe seems to be doing fine. How’s your hometown again?
Posted by: CapnAmerica
It is having problems, some of which are starting to show. Others will soon. UK has made many radical changes recently to address some of its socialism woes. France is about to make some changes and will need to make more. For young French workers are becoming increasingly agitated at how the govt has given in to the older workers and left the younger ones holding the bag. A non college educated person in many EU countries can make more off welfare than working. The Paris riots are a good example of how great the EU is doing. Wealthy French are becoming Swiss citizens to avoid the high French taxes because Switzerland offers them a better deal. Japan will be changing some of its socialist policies because it will start costing too much to keep them all.
CapnAmerica
We as a country have to make a choice, cheap goods or more responsible businesses. I vote for more responsible companies, but most Americans want the cheap goods.
I agree with the farmer thing you mentioned. 90%+ of the farm subsidies go to the corporate farms. Family farms are fast becoming a thing of the past. My grandads place is now part of the corporate conglomerate because he couldnt afford to compete with them.
there’s a whole bunch of reason’s why the dollar is toast. The first and formost is the excess liquidity that Greenspan and his clone Bernanke has injected into the markets to keep first the tech boom and secondedly the housing marked on the upward trend. However, Ben is in a quandry now because if he saves the dollar and raises the rates, the housing market will fall (its going to keep falling anyways. So he lowers rates and you got it, the dollar drops.
The reasong for the drop in dollar has everything to do with the fact the US government assumes that because it prints the world’s reserve currency, that it can devalue it to keep the economy going on a continous climb. Its a short term outlook by elected politicians who just want to win relection but don’t pause to think about the long term ramifications.
I agree, I’m ready to kick Boyda to the curb as well.
Graffitti Troll writes, “GDP per cent is not a good basis” [sic].
WRONG, that’s how the economists evaluate the impact of the national debt. When GDP goes up, our ability to pay increases just like household income increase the ability to pay off a loan.
Looking at national debt as a percentage of GDP is the best way to measure it.
Graffitti troll writes, “The pres. sends a budget to Congress, Congress makes changes to the budget so Congress is responsible for the final budget.”
FALSE AGAIN. The president can veto the budget and force Congress to pass the budget he wants or shut the gov’t down. That’s what Clinton-Gore did in the mid ninties at least once.
“My 401K is doing significantly better than my projected SS payout.” Keywords there are “is doing.” What if you had been forced to invest in Enron, like Enron workers were? What if US stocks take a beating like they did when Bush took office?
Social Security hasn’t missed a paycheck since it was started over 70 years ago.
“Each year the high school students (9 out of 10) would leave permanently. They can get better jobs, higher paying jobs in bigger cities . . . ”
And only a CON could avoid seeing that this is exactly the effect one would assume from letting big corporations turn the American population into their disposable labor “resource.”
Yeah France is loaded with problems.
Even back in the 80s when I visited I talked with some French Farmers about the high taxes (met them on a Gastronomique’ tour) :)
They gave me an example of the unpainted barn.
- They are charged a paint tax- They are charged an improvement tax- They are charged a tax to reassess the value of their property because of the improvements- They are charged a fee in order to be authorized to paint their barn by their district- They are charged an application fee in order to be get the authorization of the previously mentioned sentence.
They said, “You see my friend, why we have many unpainted barns in France. It is too expensive to do anything else but nothing. Thanks to the Saints they haven’t charged us for doing nothing, but they do subsidize us for doing nothing, which makes doing nothing more profitable!”
Gotta love socialism. :)
“The Paris riots are a good example of how great the EU is doing.”
Uh . . . the Paris riots were for MORE socialism, not less.
Who the hell is this, and why don’t you post over a real nic?
The TROLL writes of a fabricated anecdote concerning French farmers.
You know what the French say about Americans, Always Wrong Troll?
They say, “they don’t even have health care.”
And they’re effing right.
“They are charged a paint tax”
You pay tax on the paint you buy in this state.
” They are charged an improvement tax- They are charged a tax to reassess the value of their property because of the improvements- They are charged a fee in order to be authorized to paint their barn by their district- They are charged an application fee in order to be get the authorization of the previously mentioned sentence.”
Pretty much like what one is charged, via property tax, anytime there is an improvement to the property in this state.
Socialism has nothing to do with it, and everything to do with running government.
(Both of those activities require a GREAT quality of life. Like schools, recreation, social networking opportunities, etc. These need to be shored up out here before ANY population growth or recruitment of new POPULATION will occur.)
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | September 21, 2007 at 11:12 AM
There you go with the “build it and they will come” approach. New schools, parks, new highways, etc….
You were arguing against brining in the housing first though.
What do you know about it, Max?
You live in Des Moines.
Clinton Campaign Culture of Corruption Crisis Now Hits $1,000,000.
http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/09/clinton_donor_hsu_indicted_in.html
Clinton donor Hsu indicted in New York
The now-infamous Democratic money-man Norman Hsu was indicted today by federal prosecutors in New York, who accused him of running a $60 million Ponzi scheme that defrauded investors nationwide.
Hsu is the New York businessman who bundled more than $1 million in contributions to Sen. Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign. After a story last month in the Wall Street Journal questioned the legitimacy of the donations, Hsu was arrested on a fugitive warrant in a 15-year old grand theft case in California. Clinton later pledged to return $850,000 in donations.
Has Hillary Really Given the $850,000 back?
Hsu Still ‘Hillraiser,’ At Least For Now
But one step the campaign has not taken is to remove Hsu from its official list of Hillraisers. As of this morning, his name still appeared there. An oversight?
No, Clinton campaign spokesman Howard Wolfson said this morning. The campaign has decided it does not wish to air brush history, and will stay true to its commitment to exhibit the names of Clinton’s bundlers.
“The list is a list of people who have raised money for the campaign in excess of $100,000,” Wolfson said. “Once his money is returned, that will no longer be the case for him, and we will take his name down.”
http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2007/09/21/hsu_still_a_hillraiser_at_leas.html
Pretty cool that United Way is stepping up to help the homeless!!
>>>The United Way will grant $75,954 to United Methodist Open Door so that the program can extend the hours at its Drop-In Center in downtown Wichita.
It also will use $39,480 to underwrite a year of rent and utilities for seven one-bedroom Hope Inc. apartments that will be designated for people who are chronically homeless.<<<
“Brent Castillo debuted his new column a year or so ago by calling himself a “values voter.” That’s why KFG gave him the name “values boy” which stuck here on the Blog.”
I will point out, too, that Castillo is an avid reader of KFG. I have heard him say this, plus – check out this line from his past Thursday column:
“Now I’m ready to distance myself from the ‘values’ label. It’s become a caricature of what Christian conservatives believe, and is summed up by some as only being about God, guns and gays.”
http://www.kansas.com/opinion/castillo/story/179628.html
That latter part sound like anybody? A good laugh for this morning.
Couldn’t have said it better myself Hank ;->
Brent Castillo reads everybody. Having met him at one of the BLOG meetups, he’s a very nice and personable man. The nickname ‘Values Boy’ doesn’t seem to bother him much, At least not until the other day!
Hank
“and BTW, Heckler, you can’t be serious asking “What do “giant corporations” have to do with the change in the economics of farming?” That or you’ve never driven beyond the city limites of Wichita.”
Thank you, Dennis! You saved me from saying the same thing.
Ever been to France for any length of time Capn?
Didn’t think so.
Go back to your office and brood, rube boy.
France will probably have to change their cultivation restrictions
‘In Northern France, Warming Presses Fall Grape Harvest Into Summertime’http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101360.html?hpid=topnews
Scientists and vintners say wine grapes are the best agricultural measure of climate change because of their extraordinary sensitivity to weather and the meticulous data that have been kept concerning the long-lived vines….In France, wine growers are subject to the world’s most rigid cultivation restrictions: Vintners can grow only varieties authorized for their region, harvests are tightly regulated and, until this year, no irrigation was allowed. Year after year, the climate is the single greatest variable in France’s wine production, making its vineyards the perfect climate-change laboratory for scientists….Scientists warn that climate change is advancing too rapidly for the cumbersome French wine bureaucracy.”
Yeah cosmos, those Medieval Warming Period vineyard farmers in England were greatly concerned about all those SUV’s driving around in 1000-1300 AD. You know, all that man-made greenhouse gas from the Tahoes, Navigators and Escalades would make their grape crops go bad. :)
Global warming is a farce. Cosmos is a paid shill.
Yeah Kansas, but man is causing global warming THIS TIME!
Cause the computer models show! And computers don’t lie, and they are never wrong! And all the legitamit politically correct gutless wonder scientists agree!
“Scientists warn that climate change is advancing too rapidly for the cumbersome French wine bureaucracy.”"
Maybe they could build a defense system and name it, say, the Maginot Line or something.
Or, they could surrender and get it over with.
Could someone please post the roll call on the cutoff of Iraq funds? I want to see the names of the 20 Dems who voted to keep the fiasco going.
“I want to see the names of the 20 Dems who voted to keep the fiasco going.”
That would be at commie.com
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070921/ap_on_re_as/myanmar_masterful_monks
BANGKOK, Thailand – Armed only with upturned begging bowls, chanting Buddhist monks in Myanmar have caught the country’s military rulers off guard with their peaceful protests.
They have emboldened the public to take to the streets by the thousands to support the most dramatic anti-government protests the isolated Southeast Asian nation has seen in a decade.
Braving monsoon
Braving monsoon rains, monks in traditional maroon robes demonstrated for a fourth straight day Friday in the country’s largest city, Yangon. Followed by clapping onlookers, about 1,500 monks marched after praying at the Shwedagon Pagoda, the nation’s holiest shrine and a gathering place for anti-government demonstrations including the failed 1988 democratic uprising.
The monks, who are widely respected in the mostly Buddhist society, bring moral authority to the movement with their nonviolent practices and sheer numbers: There are 500,000 in monasteries across the country.
Their assumption of a leadership role in protests poses perhaps the gravest threat to the junta since the 1988 uprising when the military fired on peaceful crowds and killed thousands, terrorizing the country.
It has put the regime in a quandary over whether to crack down or take a chance and allow the protests to run their course.
Josef Silverstein, a Myanmar expert and retired Rutgers University professor, said the junta may be hesitating to act until it assesses how many monks support the protests and who is actually leading them. Yet waiting much longer could be risky.
“The monks are showing that without arms and nothing more than prayers and marching that they are capable of having greater freedom than people have had,” he said. “This could encourage people to be more resistant. The longer this stalemate goes on, the weaker the military looks to the country and outside.”
Images of the monks have increased support for the opposition’s cause worldwide. Washington, the United Nations and Hollywood stars have called on the junta to enact democratic reforms and release the leader of the pro-democracy opposition, Nobel Peace Prize laureate Aung San Suu Kyi, and other political prisoners.
The current demonstrations are the most militant since December 1996, when students gathered in Yangon to demand improvements in education and the right to organize in a union.
The military, which has controlled Myanmar since 1962, has withstood waves of domestic and international protests since 1988 and shows no signs of yielding now. Even if the people are angry and emboldened, and the junta is treated as a pariah by the West, there are no signs of disunity in the army. And the support of neighboring nations, most notably China, as well as oil and gas revenues, keep the military in a commanding position.
Aung Zaw, a Burmese editor of The Irrawaddy, a Thailand-based magazine that covers Myanmar, said the military knows that brutalizing the monks could prompt the wider public — which has largely remained on the sidelines_ to join the protests.
“Authorities are at odds over how to deal with the monks at the point. As you know, monks are respected and influential people,” Aung Zaw said. “If you are going to physically attack them, it could really provoke public anger and invite more troubles.”
Aung Zaw said in the history of Burma, as Myanmar is also known, the military leadership has always resolved such challenges by force.
“Sooner or later, there will be a crackdown,” Aung Zaw said. “They will never compromise or open dialogue.”
Myanmar ranks among the 20 poorest countries in the world, according to the United Nations, with most people living on less than $200 a year. The United Nations and others have blamed inept military leaders for bungling Myanmar’s economy, spending excessive amounts of money on a new capital and on maintaining one of the world’s largest armies.
The latest protests were triggered when authorities raised fuel prices as much as 500 percent in August. Strapped for cash, the regime was forced to slash the subsidies it had used to keep fuel cheap.
The cost of public transport skyrocketed and families suddenly found themselves having to walk to work and sell household goods to survive.
The government, which has a monopoly on fuel sales, raised prices of fuel from about $1.40 to $2.80 a gallon, and boosted the price of natural gas by about 500 percent.
Government opponents began demonstrating over the price hikes Aug. 19, but the protests were quickly contained by the junta with waves of arrests and beatings. With activists in jail or hiding, the leadership role fell to the monks.
The monks launched their protests Tuesday after the junta failed to apologize for allegedly roughing up Buddhist clergy during a demonstration in the northern town of Pakokku on Sept. 5.
Monks are demanding the government reduce fuel prices, release all political prisoners and begin negotiations with Suu Kyi and other democratic leaders.
What makes this week’s protests different than the student-led uprising of 1988 are the monks’ non-confrontational tactics — their orderly marches and religious chanting has yet to provoke the military.
The junta has tried to blame the trouble on Suu Kyi’s political party and Western powers.
“You can see the government handles the situation peacefully,” the Information Ministry’s Ye Htut told The Associated Press on Thursday. “Anti-government groups want to see the state of emergency because their objective is to exploit and provoke sangha (monks), students, workers and innocent people into making another 1988-style riot,” Ye Htut said.
Plainclothes police and pro-junta thugs, who in the early days of the demonstrations rounded up and beat activists, have mostly left the monks alone.
But if the protests gain traction, Silverstein and other analysts say it’s possible that the military may make concessions, perhaps including drafting a more democratic constitution.
____
Associated Press writer Michael Casey has covered Southeast Asia for five years.
Scientists warn that climate change is advancing too rapidly for the cumbersome French wine bureaucracy.”
Come on cosmos! That crap doesn’t even make sense! It’s not even logical!
How much do you think the earth has warmed in the last 20 years? One, two degrees? I don’t think so, but let’s for discussion sake say two degrees. How much do you think it will warm in the next 20 years?
Now, for discussion, how much do you think the annual average temperature varies in any particular wine region in France? Plus or minus a degree or two? At least! And there are many other factors that effect the vines other than temperature. Compare this with worst posible scenario for global warming, maybe .1 degree per year increase if you listen to the most extreme of the GW nuts.
Scientists? My ass. Global warming effecting wine quality and production? My ass. This hysterical wine crap is nothing more than a blatent attempt for the wacko enviromentalists to get the wino vote.
Hank
Only 1 Democrat Presidential Candidate supports the 2nd Amendment:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,297627,00.html
Seven declared presidential candidates plus one waiting in the wings were going to talk guns, recreation and Second Amendment rights Friday before a power-house conservative audience gathered at the NRA’s “Celebration of American Values” conference being held in Washington.
Richardson, the New Mexico governor and the only Democrat on the roster, sent in a video-taped message noting the apparent conflict of his party affiliation with his support for the National Rifle Association.
“Yeah cosmos, those Medieval Warming Period vineyard farmers in England were greatly concerned about all those SUV’s driving around in 1000-1300 AD.”
Kansas offers stupid comments, instead of science and facts.
http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/medieval-warm-period-was-just-as-warm.html
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/medieval.html
“The idea of a global or hemispheric “Medieval Warm Period” that was warmer than today however, has turned out to be incorrect. ”
http://www.english-wine.com/history.html
‘Days of Wine and Roses’http://tamino.wordpress.com/2006/11/11/days-of-wine-and-roses/
“Fact is, not only are wine grapes growing in England today, it’s become an industry that’s flourishing as never before.”http://www.englishwineproducers.com/
Dozens of Iranian engineers and 15 Syrian officers were killed in a July 23 accident in Syria. They were attempting to mount a chemical warhead on a Scudmissile, which exploded, spreading deadly sarin nerve gas, and perhaps other lethal agents.Now we know the Syrians have WMD.- – -
In another obvious terrorist probe of Boston’s Logan airport security (found wanting on 09/11/01), MIT student Star Simpson, 19, of Hawaii, entered the airport with a fake bomb strapped to her chest, calling it “artwork” she wanted to display. The young terrorist agent was arrested at gunpoint and charged with disturbing the peace and possessing a hoax device. She pleaded not guilty, and East Boston District Court on Friday turned the dangerous young terrorist loose on a mere $750 bond.Is this how our judicial branch of government fights a war on terrorism? Did the prosecutor even dare to ask if she is a Muslim?
Jesus Christ! cosmo is boring.
Some parents are killing their children in abortion mills when diagnosed with a manageable geneticdisease, because they are not getting information about how the disease can be treated and managed. In Israel, 25% of the unborn children found to have thegene that causes Gaucher disease were killed. The disease course can range from no outward symptoms to severe disability and death. Half of the unborn children killed would never have experienced symptoms of the disease and the rest could have led normal lives with proper medical treatment. 8% of the parents who met with a Gaucher expert and had this information explained to them chose to kill their diseased child.All the parents who did not have the meeting decided to contract killings.Genetic screenings of unborn children without enforcing informed consent in abortion mills presents a high risk to babies, much more so than disease. Insome cases, brutal eugenicist quacks, withholding positive aspects of disease treatment, have convinced parents to kill their child even before the call tothe abortion mill is made.- – -
Alec Duran, 10, of Olathe, KS was featured in a tribute in Thursday’s Remembrances in the Kansas City Star. He died August 24, during a kidney biopsy, witha history of heart complications and cardiac surgeries. He loved school, receiving outstandingachievement awards last spring. He loved trains and swimming and Jesus, was an ornery jokester, and had Down Syndrome. More than 200 people attended his memorial service. He had a purpose in life, to make people happy, and that he did. His talent was valued far above Hollywood’s sleazy hype.About 90% of children like Alec Duran, that are diagnosed with Down Syndrome before birth, are killed in abortion mills, at the urging of brutal eugenicist quacks and abortionist quacks like George Tiller, reported to have illegally killed viable babies with Down Syndrome in 2005 and 2006. And we all suffer the loss.See tribute pagehttp://www.kansascity.com/115/story/282650.htmland obituary pagehttp://www.legacy.com/KansasCity/DeathNotices.asp?Page=LifeStory&PersonID=93489068and violation pagehttp://aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansasntd.htmland violation pagehttp://aheartbreakingchoice.com/kansas2.html
Hank,
Please learn the basics. The warming is a global average, and there’s more warming at the northern latitudes.
Hank: “Global warming effecting wine quality and production? My ass. This hysterical wine crap is nothing more than a blatent attempt for the wacko enviromentalists to get the wino vote.”
Tell that to the vintners in France.http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101360.html?hpid=topnews
Global warming is a farce. Cosmos is a GW shill
http://GlobalWarmingFarce.com
http://GlobalWarming.com/PaidAdvocates/Cosmos.htm
http://GlobalWarming.com/FarceMill/CosmosTalkingPoints.htm
SolDevVB,
I’m not that “paid advocate”.
But thanks for the link to another Steve Milloy type site — I’ll add it to my collection.
Conservatives are *always* wrong. Always. Predictably, consistently, dependably, perpetually wrong.
The Conservatives backed King George III.
The Conservatives demanded slavery be sanctioned in the Constitution.
The Conservative imposed Jim Crow laws.
The Conservatives opposed the League of Nations.
The Conservatives opposed The New Deal.
The Conservatives objected to entering World War II.
The Conservatives fought against civil rights.
The Conservatives kept the US in Vietnam long after the war was lost.
The Conservatives oppose environmental protection.
The Conservatives stopped the Equal Rights Amendment which would have assured equality between genders.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.
So, of course, we should let the conservatives get their way now.
I mean, after such a track record, maybe they’re due.
Cosmos,
ROFLMFAO !!!!
I made those URLs up. Can’t freakin believe they worked. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
Max, you are insane.
“There you go with the “build it and they will come” approach. New schools, parks, new highways, etc….”
Please post where I suggested any of those things be built. I said they were part of a great quality of life. I didnt anywhere suggest that NEW anything be built.
Dumbass
SolDevVB,
I didn’t click your links… just assumed that you meant the 2nd link was me.
And Google listed that domain in a post that also suggested Milloy’s site.
Here’s who voted for an against the Iraq war withdrawl. If they’re not listed, they voted party lines.
Blocking the bill were 43 Republicans, Connecticut Independent Joseph Lierbman and Democrats Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Mark Pryor of Arkansas and Christopher Dodd of Connecticut. Whereas Nelson and Pryor say they are reluctant to embrace a timetable on troop withdrawals, Dodd said he refuses to support anything short of cutting of funding for combat.
Three Republicans — Sens. Olympia Snowe of Maine, Gordon Smith of Oregon and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska — voted with 44 Democrats in favor of the bill.
Leiberman is a disgrace. He will not make it through another election.
And while I admire Dodd’s principle, he also needs to be more flexible and realize SOMETHING is better than nothing.
Payback is gonna be a bitch!
INVASION USA
Illegal aliens linkedto gang-rape waveThe crime epidemic no one will talk about?
——————————————————————————–Posted: August 22, 20061:00 a.m. Eastern
By Chelsea Schilling© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com
Member of gang Mara Salvatrucha (NPR.org)
A wave of illegal-immigrant gang rapes is sweeping the U.S. while public officials and law-enforcement authorities fear drawing the link, experts say.
Deborah Schurman-Kauflin, a Ph.D. researcher of violent crimes, told WorldNetDaily, “It appears as if there is a fear that if this is honestly discussed, people will hate all illegal immigrants. So there is silence. … But in being silent about the rapes and murders, it is as if the victims never even existed.”
Schurman-Kauflin, who runs the Violent Crimes Institute in Atlanta, participated in a 12-month, in-depth study of illegal immigrants who committed sex crimes and murders from January 1999 through April 2006. The study found approximately 240,000 illegal-immigrant sex offenders reside in the United States – while 93 sex offenders and 12 serial sexual offenders come across U.S. borders illegally every day…..http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=51424
Pretty cool that United Way is stepping up to help the homeless!!
>>>The United Way will grant $75,954 to United Methodist Open Door so that the program can extend the hours at its Drop-In Center in downtown Wichita.
It also will use $39,480 to underwrite a year of rent and utilities for seven one-bedroom Hope Inc. apartments that will be designated for people who are chronically homeless.<<<
Posted by: kansassam | September 21, 2007 at 12:40 PM
===========================
WTG Sam, and United Way!!
“Three Republicans — Sens. Olympia Snowe of Maine, Gordon Smith of Oregon and Chuck Hagel of Nebraska”
Republicans? HA! Donkeys in Elephant clothes.
“Yeah Kansas, but man is causing global warming THIS TIME!
Cause the computer models show! And computers don’t lie, and they are never wrong! And all the legitamit politically correct gutless wonder scientists agree!”
Posted by: Max | September 21, 2007 at 02:26 PM
Actually, a model projection made in 1988 came close to what happened.
And climate models using BOTH natural and anthropogenic forcings for 1906 – 2005 have a good match to the observed temperatures.
Models run using only the natural forcings do not match.
Graphs and more info,http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11649
Mothers are 79% less likely to be hired than non-mothers with equal resumes, according to a recent study published in the American Journal of Sociology.
“Many people can’t even fathom that we live in a society that is so cold and callous against mothers that they are deterred from getting jobs simply because they have children. But just because it isn’t happening to you, doesn’t mean it isn’t happening. And that’s the truth of it. When people start talking about these issues and realizing how backwards we can be in terms of keeping up with the times, then changes will happen,” says Kiki Peppard, to those who are astonished to hear this fact.
-Momsrising—————-
want to do something about ending abortion? End this right here
Speaking of illegal crimes…Fux news said the other day that Illegal criminals are protected from deportation. They lied. It’s VICTIMS who have been protected from deportation when they come forward to report crimes against THEM.
Why oh why do they get away with this stuff over and over again…and Dan Rather lost his job for ONE mistake?
Rather said today that even though the documents he had were compromised, NOBODY has yet been able to prove the information on those documents was FALSE I thought that was a GOOD one…. NOW, he can prove his case in court, and nobody can keep the transcripts a big hidden secret…
Yeah Chas, they can verify the Post Office Box used in that cover up.
You know, the one numbered”12345″
:)
Kansas thinks he is funny or something… but wait till the law suit hits the fan…
Kansas has nothing to refute Rather’s story, so he makes it up as he goes along LOL
I think he should lose the lawsuit. Not because I am fan of Bush, but because he and his staff did not do some simple homework. An idiot should have noticed the cleanness of the lettering. I am not sure about anyone else, but I have used manual and electric typewriters many times over the years. The quality is nowhere near what was on the documents. Reminds me of the Hitler Diaries a few years back, and several other hoaxes over the years. If the people involved had done their homework, they would not have been caught with their pants down.
I am curious where Bush was during the missing period, but no group has come up with proof. As many liberal groups have been digging, something should have surfaced by now. One thing about govt and military is worse, there is always a paper trail. The paper trail is typically so detailed and long, you can never erase it all. Somewhere, someone kept a copy of the missing records, intentionally or unintentionally. It is only a matter of time before the records surface. What the records will show may or may not be interesting. The CIA could have dummied up better records supporting or disproving Bush in a matter of days, if not hours.
Kansas has nothing to refute Rather’s story, so he makes it up as he goes along LOL
Posted by: Chas.
Chas. unless Rather has something he has not shown, he has not proof supporting his claim. As I said, I want to know where Bush was, but I want it to be based on actual records, not faked ones, whether the fake ones are provided by Bush or by Rather.
The only thing we know for sure is we do not know where Bush was. Maybe the next group to “dig up” something will use the appropriate era technology to falsify their records. Bush does not seem too concerned with the issue so I do not see his group coming up with phony records.
The media needs to get back to doing the news and stop creating the news. I remember several times over the last few years where the media had to fess up to creating stories or embellishing stories to pump ratings, kind of like our current administration.
Just search the Internet Chas. The man admitted on 60 minutes he made up the documents and that he lied. CBS did an investigation and found that the typewriter used to type the documents didn’t even exist in the late 1960s or early 1970s. They were pure forgeries.
There was an interview with the daughter done about the former Texas Lt. Governor Barnes and how he got Bush into the National Guard. Barnes had stated when he was Lt. Governor he got Bush into the National Guard in 1968.
The problem with that is that is that Barnes was not Lt. Governor until 1969.
The story was poked full of holes by CBS Chas, Rather’s employer, not anyone else. CBS did the hatchet job on Rather.
What Rather is doing is the “Imus” thing. He is suing CBS because they ruined his reputation and thusly violated his contracted protecting a journalist from bad sources.
You Chas as usual, have it completely backwards for all the wrong reasons.
Whether Chas. has it wrong or not, Rather will probably win the suit or get a large settlement.
The big problem with something so far ago is proving it either way. Sure if you find the right person with the right information, if they are not dead due to age, you will find the evidence which supports Rather’s claim or Bush’s claim. The evidence could be anywhere, some old govt box rotting who knows where, in Crawford, Texas safely hidden away, or somewhere else.
SORT & DEPORT !!
Immigration profiteers spend millions of dollars every year in Washington, DC trying to influence legislation so that it benefits them. Using some of the profits they made last year, they hire the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the American Farm Bureau, and many others to “lobby” the federal government for them. The goal is to change or influence US laws and US policies in their favor, or, to put it another way, to increase their profits next year.
Immigration profiteers include indirect beneficiaries like Tyson’s Foods, which reaps profits from the downward pressure on wages that an increase in the labor supply always entails.
Another is WalMart, which benefits from the lower wages it can pay in the United States, and from the transfer of millions of people from low-consumption societies to a high- consumption society.
The member-seeking Service Employees International Union, which publicly talks tough on the predations of the global corpocracy, but, behind the scenes, throws millions at Washington in support of the very same bills supported by the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, is another indirect beneficiary of mass immigration. So is the congregant-seeking Catholic church.
Direct beneficiaries are the “fee-per-head” profiteers like the American Immigration Lawyers Association, and the “refugee” resettlement industry’s Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society.
Direct or indirect, to the extent these profiteers are successful in making an increase in their own profits the goal of US immigration policy, the well-being of the people of the United States diminishes as the aim.
Americans are a very commercial people; economic considerations often determine US policies. Accordingly, economic arguments carry a great deal of weight in public discourse.
As one might expect, an economic argument employed by the profiteers to persuade congress and the American people to support some bill or another will not be an accurate and truthful one. We’ll never hear a Microsoft lobbyist argue, truthfully, “the h-1b visa program results in a net profit increase of $xx million per year for Microsoft.”
No, the profiteers argue we don’t have enough Americans, or that Americans aren’t skilled enough, to do certain jobs. The h-1b visa program, therefore, is necessary for “our economy.”
The Supreme Court calls this profit-driven, corporate-financed corruption of the public discourse “free speech.”
I call it perpetrating a public fraud.
Because built on an attempt to deceive, the arguments don’t stand up under any type of scrutiny, of course. They are, in fact, easily seen through (unless you are a US senator, apparently, in which case they seem to be exceedingly compelling
The deportation process for illegal aliens and criminal alien residents is designed for failure:
EOIR litigation bureaucracy is the problem, not the solutionThe Executive Office for Immigration Review — a federal agency made up of the U.S. Immigration Court system and its appellate body, the Board of Immigration Appeals — is the centerpiece of a largely unknown permanent amnesty for illegal aliens and criminal alien residents within the U.S. Department of Justice.
With the complicity of the Department of Justice and the Department of Homeland Security, the EOIR litigation bureaucracy forms the hidden piece of the puzzle of institutionalized mass immigration in the federal government.
Deportation of foreign nationals in the United States is largely voluntary.
The lengthy EOIR system of hearings and appeals enables illegal aliens and criminal alien residents to remain in the United States both legally and illegally.
EOIR and the INS enable the vast majority of detained aliens facing deportation to be released back to the streets on an immigration bond or paroled out of federal custody during the EOIR hearing process, giving every non-detained illegal alien and criminal alien the option of disappearing back into the United States regardless of the outcome of their Immigration Court hearings.
The lack of physical security on the land border exposes the EOIR process for the charade that it is — deported aliens just walk back in.
EOIR makes a federal case out of every illegal alien and criminal alien resident in the United StatesAfter reviewing Immigration Court decisions at the Board of Immigration Appeals (its appellate body) the EOIR system also offers federal circuit appellate court review for the deportation of every illegal alien and every criminal alien resident in the United States.
EOIR hearings and appeals are never really over until the alien wins.
Considering the laundry list of relief from deportation available in Immigration Court, EOIR removal proceedings are really “get to stay” proceedings.
EOIR is a permanent amnesty by stealth.
EOIR routinely grants “green cards” (lawful permanent resident status) to illegal aliens, and allows convicted criminal aliens to remain in the United States.
EOIR simply is not designed for detaining and deporting aliens.
EOIR is the four-letter word of immigration policyEOIR is entirely unknown in the major media.
EOIR litigation is the livelihood of thousands of immigration lawyers, whose interests are represented by their lobbying group — the American Immigration Lawyers Association — AILA.
The country’s over 200 EOIR immigration judges earn from $109,587 to $142,500 per year.
EOIR bureaucracy unnecessarily formalizes simple review processes that already are entrusted to lesser-paid federal employees including consular officers, adjudications officers, immigration inspectors, special agents, immigration agents, deportation officers and asylum officers all over the country and the world.
The EOIR bureaucracy must be abolishedThe EOIR’s redundant functions should be parceled out to federal law enforcement personnel already in the Department of Homeland Security who can do the job of deporting illegal aliens and criminal alien residents.
The EOIR litigation bureaucracy is the antithesis of real homeland security.
As a deportation system, EOIR is designed for failure. But as institutionalized mass immigration, EOIR is a raging success!
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——————————————————————————–
Report estimates county’s illegal immigrant cost at $256 million in 2006
By: GIG CONAUGHTON – Staff Writer
SAN DIEGO —- A county-commissioned study estimated that illegal immigrants directly cost the county of San Diego and taxpayers $101 million last year, and indirectly cost an additional $155 million in unpaid medical care.
However, the estimates in the $40,000 study, which the county Board of Supervisors voted to pursue in May 2006, were largely based on anecdotal information rather than hard statistics.
Supervisors sought the study in the hope of presenting federal officials with a bill for the costs of illegal immigration in the border county of San Diego. Horn and the rest of the board say local governments and taxpayers should not have to pay extra for a “failed federal immigration policy.”
The study itself, compiled by San Diego State University professor John Weeks and former Chula Vista Police Department border studies expert David Eisenberg, said the study “must be viewed with a certain amount of caution” because its estimates were based on anecdotal evidence.
Weeks said there aren’t many hard numbers about the costs of illegal immigration because most agencies don’t track residency status. In some cases they are forbidden to do so by federal funding laws. Weeks said estimates in the report were largely formulated by multiplying the budgets for county departments by 10 percent —- a figure county officials said was a “reasonable” measure of illegal immigrants’ cost to their programs.
The report estimated that illegal immigrants cost the county roughly $75 million in criminal justice costs, such as jailing and prosecuting, and $26 million in health, social and other costs.
Horn, who pushed hard for the study to be done, said Friday that he planned to use the report to lobby the federal government, through Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Solana Beach, for help. He also said he thought the $255 million figure was too low —- in part because he thought it underestimated the illegal immigrant population and did not take education costs into account.
“The next step is to get Bilbray to change the rules and get the hard numbers,” Horn said. “I think they’re extremely conservative.”
Bilbray, who campaigned for the study along with Horn when both were running for election in 2006, issued a written statement saying he was eager to work with Horn to get federal reimbursement.
“When it comes to illegal immigration,” Bilbray said in his statement, “the federal government is the biggest deadbeat dad in America.”
Bilbray retained his seat after a campaign based on fighting illegal immigration.
In 2001, county supervisors released a study compiled by researchers for the United States-Mexico Border Counties Coalition that said the county spent more than $50.3 million in 1999 on criminal justice and medical care for illegal immigrants.
But in 1994, a report by the Urban Institute suggested that immigrants generate an overall surplus of $25 million to $30 million in taxes.
The new study also looked just at what costs illegal immigrants create, and did not try to look for benefits that illegal immigrants might bring the county.
“I’m not even asking that question,” Horn said. “I spend taxpayer money for taxpayer services. That’s my charge. My issue with the federal and state government is that they’re asking me to spend my taxpayer money on people who don’t even belong here.”
Pedro Rios, San Diego director of the American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker human rights organization, said he was afraid the study would be used to promote “anti-immigrant sentiment.”
“Some of the more extreme groups, vigilantes and others, generally maintain a position that migrants harm the general society,” Rios said.
Weeks, meanwhile, said he hoped others would try to study what benefits illegal immigrants provided to the community, and that it was a relevant calculation to the discussion of illegal-immigrant costs.
In his study, Weeks wrote that illegal immigrants obviously contribute in a variety of economic ways by spending money and providing services.
“My personal perspective is neither pro- or anti-immigration,” Weeks said Friday. “The target audience for this report is the federal government —- not to play into the arguments about whether immigration is good or bad, but to keep the need for some reasonable immigration reform legislation on the table.”
—–
Pmom, don’t know if there’s anything to it, but that McCarthy woman was on tv saying her autistic son is on his way to recovery due to a gluten free, and dairy free diet.
Really? Two billion
> unfortunates in third-world nations hunger for a chance to migrate to
> America.
> While in-migration in small numbers may be sensible for specific
> reasons, bringing countless third-world people to the U.S. with no
> strategic plan or goals proves foolish and dangerous. Sufficient
> reasons exist for first-world nations to enforce their immigration
> laws: to protect jobs and citizens.
> Few Americans comprehend the various impacts and financial costs of
> illegal migration into the United States. Like a cancer, it enters the
> body while proliferating until, at some point, it compromises, then
> destroys the integrity of surrounding tissue. Illegal “migration”
> encroaches on legal American taxpayers who work honestly within their
> system.
> The costly overhead, the “fringe-benefits” – tend to sneak up on us.
> At first, communities and individual taxpayers don’t notice it. But
> soon, it grows beyond normalcy – toward malignancy.
> With more than 20 million illegal aliens working and living in the
> United States today, that malignancy spreads out of control in every
> state where a sizable population of aliens congregates.
> According to the well-respected U.S. Center for Immigration Studies
> (www.cis.org), incarcerated convicted illegal aliens make up 29
> percent of federal, state and local prisons at a cost of more than
> $1.6 billion annually. This number doubles when the costs for
> apprehension, the justice system, public defenders, interpreters,
> prosecutors and the courts add to the total.
> Gig Conaughton, reporter for the North County Times, Escondido,
> California, wrote a piece exposing the horrific costs of illegal
> aliens in one county.
> Conaughton wrote, “A county-commissioned study estimated that illegal
> immigrants directly cost the county of San Diego and taxpayers $101
> million last year, and indirectly cost an additional $155 million in
> unpaid medical care. Public school costs and a myriad of social-
> services increase the actual costs, but are not included in the
> count.”
> Illegal alien “migrants” cost the county roughly $75 million in
> criminal justice costs, such as jailing, prosecuting and public
> defender efforts – and $26 million in health, social and other costs.
> Experts said the estimates proved very conservative. Please remember,
> our laws only require that we provide emergency medical services.
> Conaughton wrote, “Spokesman Horn, who pushed hard for the study to be
> done, said Friday that he planned to use the report to lobby the
> federal government, through Rep. Brian Bilbray, R-Solana Beach, for
> help. He also said he thought the $255 million figure was too low – in
> part because he thought it underestimated the illegal immigrant
> population – and did not take education costs into account.”
> Bilbray champions enforcement of existing immigration laws.
> “Bilbray, who campaigned for the study along with Horn when both were
> running for election in 2006, issued a written statement saying he was
> eager to work with Horn to get federal reimbursement,” Conaughton
> wrote. ‘When it comes to illegal immigration,’ Bilbray said in his
> statement, ‘the federal government is the biggest deadbeat dad in
> America.’”
> Net costs to provide services to illegals increased 500 percent in 7
> years.
> “In 2001, county supervisors released a study compiled by researchers
> for the United States-Mexico Border Counties Coalition that said San
> Diego County spent more than $50.3 million in 1999 on criminal justice
> and medical care for illegal immigrants,” Conaughton wrote.
> “I’m not even asking that question,” Horn said. “I spend taxpayer
> money for taxpayer services. That’s my charge. My issue with the
> federal and state government is that they’re asking me to spend my
> LOCAL taxpayer money on people who don’t even belong here – and are
> here unlawfully.”
> The San Diego report exposed shocking costs to taxpayers in one
> county. With California hosting more than five million illegal aliens
> and their kids and grand-kids, a 2005 report showed “migrants” cost
> state taxpayers more than $10.2 billion annually – for primary,
> secondary and tertiary services. That’s money that could reduce the
> $38 billion state debt!
> Like California, Colorado citizen-taxpayers pay gigantic costs.
> In my state of Colorado, our finances struggle under the load of more
> than 500,000 illegals at a cost of $1 billion annually (Source:www.cairco.org) for primary, secondary and tertiary services. Some
> sources estimate triple that cost!
> These precious dollars pay for K-12 education, emergency medical
> costs, optional medical costs, the additional burden on the justice
> system and the public defender, and incarceration of convicted
> criminal aliens. Other costs covered include uninsured illegals in
> vehicular accidents, school breakfast and lunch programs as well as
> things like housing assistance.
> Under the radar, most Americans don’t realize half of illegal aliens
> work off the books and pay no taxes. The 2005 Bear Stearns Report
> showed a related loss of $301 billion in uncollected IRS income taxes
> annually, for the 2003 base year.
> To make it worse, migrants yearly send more than $60 billion in cash
> remittances back to home countries- thus bleeding the U.S. treasury.
> These illegal aliens forget to report their job-wages when applying
> for “free” services.
> BIG “business;” children and grand-children born here to illegal
> aliens.
> “Instant citizens” create another drain on taxpayers’ earnings. The
> average delivery costs $5,000 to $7,000 – depending on location. The
> pre-natal and postnatal care adds another $5,000. Is this ‘birthing’ a
> big item? Various experts tell us the number of such births in 2006
> was somewhere between 400,000 and 1,200,000 babies.
> The direct and indirect costs are thus somewhere between 4.4 BIL and
> 13.2 BIL U.S. dollars – per year – and that doesn’t include the
> subsequent $3.5 BIL to $10.5 BIL – per year – for education. The real
> kicker occurs when each child gains free access to K-12 education and
> free breakfast and lunch program for 13 years of schooling. The cost
> of one year of school averages $7,000.00 – and the feeding programs,
> born by American taxpayers, soar into the billions of dollars.
> How many children of illegal aliens attend U.S. schools?
> The “official numbers” grossly understate the reality.
> If we tabulate 20-28 million illegal aliens here now – plus their 4-9
> million kids and grand-kids – and two-thirds of those kids attend
> schools – we pay to educate some 4-9 million kids. Factor-in birth
> costs, prenatal care, postnatal care, medical costs for children with
> birth-defects and other “complications,” special needs kids, schooling
> and lunch programs – and we’re talking big bucks. Do the math!
> The U.S. continues as the only first-world nation to endorse the old-
> paradigm – granting full citizenship and benefits to each child “Born
> in the USA .” France and Britain and all of the other first-world
> nations nullified that benefit many years ago, as counterproductive.
> California Rep. Dan Lungren introduced HR 1940 to stop birthright
> citizenship.
> He said, “It’s a debate worth having, considering an estimated 400,000
> to 1,200,000 babies are born in the United States every year to
> illegal immigrant parents. Those babies receive automatic U.S.
> citizenship – at great cost to U.S. citizen-taxpayers. If citizenship
> is to have true meaning, foreign-nationals with no allegiance to the
> United States should not be able to lay claim to it on behalf of their
> offspring.”
> Hidden Costs; not discussed in polite company
> As the financial costs grow, few speak about job losses and wages
> depressed for America’s working poor. “Unemployment” proves a touchy
> subject, so the official numbers continue being grossly understated.
> In truth, 14-18 million U.S. citizen-taxpayers endure unemployment.
> They head to the unemployment lines, soup kitchens, homelessness and
> food stamps. Their family members suffer endlessly, but the
> “progressive” media maintains “silent assertion.”
> Do not forget the middle class! They suffer job losses in roofing, dry-
> walling, construction, cab driving, landscaping, house painting,
> paving and restaurant work – just to name a few. We must also remember
> that each of these “breadwinners” usually features a spouse-partner, a
> few kids, and aging parents.
> No one escapes the ravages of illegal migration.
> Ask yourself this question. With more than 20 million “migrants” doing
> THIS MUCH DAMAGE, what happens to American workers and communities
> tomorrow, and the next day – when we add another 10 or 20 or 30
> million more illegal aliens into our country?
> If you are not enraged, you are part of the problem.
no, I’ve done the GFCF diet, and although a slight improvement, not enough to warrant the cost.
Gee, between the Sock Puppet Ballet, and the book-length posts, makes it hard to follow much of any discussion… What to do, what to do…. LOL
Dear Long Time Poster, First Time Lurker,
You are obviously a public school dropout. Everyone of you liberal DNC talking points about conservatives is wrong. Every one!
“The Conservatives backed King George III.”
This particular statement is proof that you have absolutely no concept of American History. Ever hear of “No taxation without representation”? The “Stamp Act” “The Boston Tea Party”
King George III was changing things in the colonies. He was taking away our right to rule ourselves. He was replacing our chosen governors with his from England. The rebels were rebelling against oppressive CHANGE. They were conservatives!
“The Conservatives demanded slavery be sanctioned in the Constitution.”
Now your ignorance of American History has been expanded to the writing and the reasoning behind the Constitution! The 3/5ths compromise wasn’t about conservative vs. liberal. It was slave states vs. free states. Hell, you don’t even know the correct modern day liberal spin! As modern liberals attempt to re-write history to make the founding fathers look like a bunch of anti-black hypocrites they bring up the ol’ 3/5th of a person straw man.
From wikipedia:
Delegates opposed to slavery generally wished to count only the free inhabitants of each state. Delegates supportive of slavery, on the other hand, generally wanted to count slaves at their actual numbers. Since slaves could not vote, slaveholders would thus have the benefit of increased representation in the House and the Electoral College; taxation was only a secondary issue. The final compromise of counting slaves as only three-fifths of their actual numbers reduced the power of the slave states, but is still generally credited with giving the pro-slavery forces disproportionate political power in the U.S. government from the establishment of the Constitution until the Civil War.
The three-fifths compromise is found in Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3 of the United States Constitution.
“The Conservative imposed Jim Crow laws.”
Shees! Do you even know what a ‘Jim Crow Law’ is? Do you know who James Crow was? From your previous demonstrated ignorance I seriously doubt it! Blaming Jim Crow laws on conservatives is attempting to reduce a very complex and shameful part of our history to a simpleton’s misunderstanding of the black vs. white culture that good people, liberal and conservative, have been struggling to make right for the better part of two centuries.
When the democrats blame all the problems of the black culture in this country on republicans it is more than shameful, it’s a lie that continues to promote racial problems for no other purpose than political gain.
“The Conservatives opposed the League of Nations.”
Good. We also appose the UN. So what is your point?
“The Conservatives opposed The New Deal.”
Yep, still do. Roosevelt in public said the purpose of the ‘New Deal’ and the greatest expansion of government in history was for the 3R’s. Relief, recovery, and reform.
In private he was more honest. The purpose was to use tax payer’s money to buy votes. It was designed to keep democrats in power for the next 50 years. It was so successful for Roosevelt that the dems have carried on his policy of tax and spend ever since.
“The Conservatives objected to entering World War II.”
No, my history challenged friend. This was Isolationists that opposed US involvement in the war in Europe. After Pearl Harbor, the country was almost 100% behind the war effort. Again, it was never a conservative vs. liberal issue.
“The Conservatives fought against civil rights.”
Hmm., Mostly conservative democrats in the South. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was a bipartisan little piece of legislation that couldn’t have passed without republican support. Here’s a TTBOI for you, what Senator still serving in the US Senate voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act? Here’s another, What former democrat Senator and recently failed democratic candidate for president had a father with the same name that voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act? And another, What democrat Senator from Arkansas that vehemently opposed the 1964 Civil Rights Act was a mentor sponsor and hero of William Jefferson Clinton? OK, OK, I know too easy! Here’s one; how many democrats voted against the 1964 Civil Rights Act? Republicans?
“The Conservatives kept the US in Vietnam long after the war was lost.”
We never lost that war, the liberals surrendered. The massive escalation of the war was under Johnson. Nixon ran on getting us out and he did. Don’t get me started on Viet Nam. You obviously aren’t quick enough to keep up.
“The Conservatives oppose environmental protection.”
Oh really? Any proof of that? We merely oppose the liberal obscene political power grab in the name of environmentalism.
“The Conservatives stopped the Equal Rights Amendment which would have assured equality between genders.”
Thank Heavens! Philis Schafley almost single handedly stopped that ridiculous amendment! We didn’t want Grandma to have to pee in the same bathroom as a bunch of tattooed, toothless, smelly, wino bikers. And what exactly does the stupid phrase ‘equality between genders’ mean? You are a simple dunce aren’t you!?
“So, of course, we should let the conservatives get their way now.”
The only statement of yours I agree with!
Hank
Gee, between the Sock Puppet Ballet, and the book-length posts, makes it hard to follow much of any discussion… What to do, what to do…. LOL
Posted by: Chas. |
Makes me glad I gave up cable TV several months ago, more humor on here than a year’s worth of 150+ channels of cable. If the book ones look interesting, I will skim the first part, otherwise I bypass them.
Popcorn anyone? Not even a full moon and the gifted ones are in full force.
After the today, I could use some levity.
I meant to say After the dentist today.
“Brent Castillo reads everybody. Having met him at one of the BLOG meetups, he’s a very nice and personable man.”
Hank and I agree on this much.
Hank, if Giuliani wins the nomination, is he going to be your man? Would love to watch the cognitive dissonance as you consider this apparent eventuality.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070921/pl_nm/usa_politics_giuliani_clinton_dc_3;_ylt=AtPc0KijWuTOU9Iq1NAqVWdlM3wV
Dear Steven,
Yep. If he was running against the Hildebeast.
If Hillary wins the nomination is she going to be your woman?
Hank
I’m still hoping for Newt. Then I like Fred for no other reason than Doomp! Doomp!
The Republicans could probably run a dead person against “Her Royal Thighness” Clinton and win. There are that many people that just don’t like her and knows she still a sharp fanged far left liberal that will turn the U.S. into a socialistic mud pit of ever rising taxes and fees.
Cant handle any more RW propaganda… had enough for one day…. So —–
Good Night; Good Luck; and God Bless; whatever you conceive God to be…
Blessings all!!
Jim Kouri, CPP is fifth vice-president of the National Association of Chiefs of Police and served in law enforcement for over 25 years. He writes for many police magazines such as Police Times. He’s appeared as on-air commentator for over 100 TV and radio news and talk shows including Oprah, McLaughlin Report, CNN Headline News, MTV, Fox News, etc. His book Assume The Position is available at Amazon.Com and can be ordered at local bookstores.
Complex problems are associated with illegal aliens who commit crimes. Criminal aliens tend to be drug-oriented and violent, often preying on members of their own cultures. If deported, they frequently use new names to reenter the United States and establish residence in different cities. Furthermore, aliens do not confine their criminal activities to border cities–communities throughout this country are experiencing increasing alien involvement in drug importation and distribution, weapons smuggling, and violence against persons and property.
The escalation in alien crime has placed added demands on state and local law enforcement personnel. Effective identification of aliens involved in crime requires familiarity with fraudulent documentation. Proper arrest procedures must be carried out, and complex notification and reporting requirements must be satisfied; otherwise, dangerous aliens can escape prosecution and deportation. Handling the myriad problems
associated with alien crimes is often beyond the capabilities of local police departments.
Some illegal aliens in the United States have been arrested and incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails, adding to already overcrowded prisons and jails. On April 7, 2005, the US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens that were incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails.
In the population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990.
They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses.
CRIMINAL HISTORY
More than two-thirds of the defendants charged with an immigration offense were identified as having been previously arrested. Thirty-six percent had been arrested on at least 5 prior
occasions; 22%, 2 to 4 times; and 12%,1 time.
Sixty-one percent of those defendants had been convicted at least once; 18%, 5 or more
times; 26%, 2 to 4 times; and 17%, 1 time. Of those charged, 49% had previously been
convicted of a felony: 20% of a drug offense; 18%, a violent offense; and 11%, other felony
offenses. Twelve percent had previously been convicted of a misdemeanor.
Defendants charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. Nine
in ten had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, half had been arrested
on at least 5 prior occasions.
Fifty-six percent of those charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted
of a violent or drug-related felony. By contrast, under half of those charged with
alien smuggling, a third of those charged with unlawful entry, and just over a quarter those
charged with misuse of visas and other charges had previously been arrested. The criminal
histories of these defendants were generally less extensive: more than 70% had been
previously arrested fewer than 5 times.
Sort & Deport !!