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Open thread 9/11
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Sept. 11, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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397 Comments
NATHAN!
In your opinion, why aren’t Mormons Christian? And why do you must ask Chas how he conceives God? Is it some sort of perverse “my God is bigger than your God” game? Are you just the AoG analog of Wahhabi clerics slamming down Shi’ites, Ahmadis, and to some extent, also non-Wahhabi Sunnis? Is that what you’re aiming for, over-zealous purity? Are you going to answer any of these, or are you going to waste blog space, like you accuse Chas?
Almost six years ago, I thought the tragedy would unite the world against radicalism, in particular religious extremism. I still pray that I will live to see the day.
Nowadays, the intolerant views are the loudest voices. Often, we failed to show that we’re the good guys, simply because we send in the Marines with loaded weapons and jittery fingers too soon. We failed to show we care, because corporate extremism dictates that we must have cheap oil, coffee, etc., first and foremost, leaving the rest of the world behind in the shackles of poverty in an ever increasingly competitive world.
In one’s live certain days remain clear and with meaning. Today is such a day… I will remember.
Roo,Nathan can be kind of a bully when it comes to religion. He knows his scripture, but he forgets what witnessing is all about.
Kansas Health Care For All
Presents a Community Forum on
UNIVERSAL
HEALTH CARE ACCESS
THE CASE FOR
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE
Dr. David Goering, MD
Chairman, Kansas Health Care For All
Speaker and Moderator
Distinguished Panel of Speakers and Commentators
Dr. Bill Roy, MD
Former United States Congressman 1971-1975
Dr. Raymond Davis, PhD
Professor Emeritus, KU Department of Public Administration
Dr. Michael Fox, ScD
President, Kansas Health Consumer Coalition
Interactive discussion with the audience and panelists follows
Lawrence Memorial Hospital Auditorium
Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7-9 PM
For more information go to: http://www.khcfa.org
Kansas Health Care For All
Presents a Community Forum on
UNIVERSAL
HEALTH CARE ACCESS
THE CASE FOR
NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE
Dr. David Goering, MD
Chairman, Kansas Health Care For All
Speaker and Moderator
Distinguished Panel of Speakers and Commentators
Dr. Bill Roy, MD
Former United States Congressman 1971-1975
Dr. Raymond Davis, PhD
Professor Emeritus, KU Department of Public Administration
Dr. Michael Fox, ScD
President, Kansas Health Consumer Coalition
Interactive discussion with the audience and panelists follows
Lawrence Memorial Hospital Auditorium
Tuesday, October 16, 2007 7-9 PM
For more information go to: http://www.khcfa.org
XXX,
I have noticed that. I, however, would like to be among those who choose to fight back against the bully, and for once keep my lunch money, so to speak. A shameful behaviour for a Marine, I may say, who should be honour-bound to protect those who can’t protect themselves, not cower them to fearful submission. As for knowing one’s Scriptures, we’ll see if the Scriptures will come alive through deeds.
Nowadays, the intolerant views are the loudest voices.
Because they speak; the normal joes are busy working. The intolerant are out of work.
Then perhaps the “normal joes” need to take a little break and show the world that they do not share those extreme views, and that they will not stay silent. Same goes to the “normal abd’ullahs” who need to proclaim that they are not with the religious fundamentalists. Sadly, this is still the time and place where minorities and outsiders must work twice as hard to be deemed half as good. But hopefully, one day these “normal people” will be able sit harmoniously at the same table for some tea and scones.
“…and the meek shall inherit”
Something to keep in mind.
Would today be a day of rememberance and not the typical day of hate bashing on this thread, and maybe the blog itself.
In honor of those who died this day, may you have be at peace in death.
Rep Ackerman asked the BIG question yesterday:
“My question is while we wait for this to happen, how much more blood should we invest? If it takes another four years, I’d like to know from each of you your best, realistically optimistic view of where Iraq will be in those four years. And if it is, that we spend during that time another 4,000 American lives, created another 20,000 plus people maimed for life, spend another 600 billion dollars, see our military further decimated more than it has been already, will…this…be…worth…it?”
Today should be a day of rememberance and prayer. Sadly, those that used 9-11 to exploit their own political agendas, have hardened the nation. Instead of using an united country and waging a war against those that attacked us, they decided to use the victims of 9-11 to push a ridiculous policy. They use the victims of 9-11 the same way they use the troops. Great for a photo op. Pawns in their game the rest of the time.
God have mercy on us. May those that lost their lives on that day rest in peace. We will get this right eventually. We promise.
So true, 9/11 just became an excuse for Bush’s agenda to manipulate the Middle East and maintain the flow of oil. It’s so obvious because Ben Laden is still out there, free to plan another attack. Invading Iraq was the best thing we could have done to bolster Ben Laden’s cause. The damage done will never be repaired in our lifetime..thanks a lot George.
That should be “bin” not “Ben”, I haven’t had enough caffeine yet!
A Christian is a Christian is a Christian. They all interpet the Bible differently and they’re all probably wrong.Mankind needs to quit splitting hairs when it comes to religion and start treating each other with love and compassion…the golden rule is all the world really needs.
“the golden rule is all the world really needs.”
He who has the gold…
Makes the rules…..
All that is gold does not glitter,Not all those who wander are lostThe old that is strong does not wither,Deep roots are not reached by frost.
- J. R. R. Tolkien “Lord of the Rings”
Sister Golden Hair
Talk about spin!
When mankind learns the advantage of treating each other decently, then maybe the greed that fuels war will stop. I’m not holding my breath, but I can dream.Strength is is doing the right thing, Hank….NOT bullying others into what YOU think right.
Mary I see as much as bullying from the left as I do from the right. As a number of people have said here two wrongs do not make a right. I support not bullying, but both sides need to do it. The ones on the left are the most vocal about denying their bullying on this blog. Yet, they want to force their opinions down our throats as much as the right does.
Yes, mankind needs to start treating each other right. When people learn there is only one race, then maybe we will reach that point. Scientists have been saying for years there is only one race with different ethnicities, but politicians and radicals have been ignoring and convincing their followers that there are different races. They do so they can give their followers some one else to hate. After all, if a person of X color is not the same race as a person of Y color, then they can more easily hate that person.
When nations quit bullying each other, then the world has a chance. As far as individuals are concerned, we have to evolve beyond the tribalism that has been ingrained in us for a million years. Maybe when we truely become global, everyone interbreeds, and we’re all the same color…then we can move past it.
Dear Mary,
Strength is is doing the right thing, Hank….NOT bullying others into what YOU think right.
Everyone looks at facts and events through the prism of their beliefs and esperience. In any one event there are many truths. Few among us can see the totality of an event and percieve the real truth.
Is Nathan a bully? I know him very well and I don’t believe so. Why do y9ou think he is? Is it because he defends his religion? I think not.
On many of these threads Nathan or I will comment on something entirely separate from our faith and the response will be (paraphrased) . . .but this is coming from someone that believes the earth is only 8,000 years old!. . .
The mere fact that we are confessed Christians is used by some to attack our credibility on almost any subject. Mostly, I choose not to respond. Nathan is different.
Of course I have not followed all of the Chas./Nathan posts concerning Christianity, but I see nothing wrong with Nathan asking a minister his beliefs about Christianity. Chas. uses his status as a minister to add weight to his opinions therefore his status as a minister and his beliefs are fair game.
If he chooses not to participate, fine. I’d leave it alone. I am amused by the number of people that use this discussion by Nathan and Chas to attack Nathan or maybe attack isn’t the right word. . . Try and explain to Nathan how a proper Christian would act.
Bully? No. Obnoxious? A little, but there is plenty of blame on both sides supporting this discussion. It could end two ways; Chas could merely answer the very simple questions concerning his beliefs or Nathan could get tired of the harrassment and stop asking. I see no end in sight. They’re both to bull-headed to relent.
Hank
Ahh yess and so it goes!!
When nations quit bullying each other, then the world has a chance.
The only way nations can achieve this goal is for their individuals to achieve it. It does not work the other way around usually. Maybe if a strong leader showed his/her people, then your goal is temporarily achieveable until that person leaves office.
More people are intermarrying so this can help that ultimate goal. It is no guarantee since some of the worst haters hate part or all of their own ethnicity. The Jewish Nazis mentioned the other day are a good example. There is evidence that one of Hitler’s parents had Jewish blood, and he went after the Jews.
“we have to evolve beyond the tribalism that has been ingrained in us for a million years.”
So we have evolution to blame for all this?!
Nation’s have always contended for their “fair share” or the world’s resources. The powers to be in Europe raped the world over for gold. Tribes in the America’s fought each other for hunting rights and boundaries and the list goes on and on…..
Today the fight is for oil. The USA is not the only one is preoccupied with this pursuit. Russia and China are doggedly cozying up to oil rich nations to feed the demand. Having oil means having power.
It’s a bit near sighted to think that everbody is going to get along some day when we all just decide to love each other. That would be great, but unfortunately that is not human nature. But at least we could start with ourselves if we really want that to happen globally.
When I talk about “bullying”, Hank, I’m not referring to Nathan. I’m talking about mankind in general and how we use religion to justify our intolerence for each other’s beliefs. This is a global problem, not a conflict between the Christians in this country and everyone else. You see it in every culture, not just ours.Personally I don’t give a rip about anyone’s religious beliefs, as long as they don’t use it as justification to hurt and oppress others who don’t see things the way they do.
I don’t believe that Nathan is a bully…but if he ever gets elected to political office and tries to mold our country and other countries according to his religious beliefs, then I will believe he’s a bully.I stand by my previous post..the golden rule is all that mankind needs to get along. Respecting others like you want others to respect you is a great tool for getting along. When we accept and embrace this concept, the world will be a better place. But I’m not holding my breath.
I scroll over those who post to argue and harass. IF they ever have something interesting to post I will miss it, but “missing” what they post most often makes it worthwhile.
rfl, not having the ability to empathize with others and feel compassion or respect for them underlies ALL our drive for power, resources, oil, etc. When we evolve past our basic survival instincts things will change for the world. As long as we lack the ability to do this, nothing will ever change, there will ALWAYS be a war or genocide going on somewhere in the world. Bending others to our will is only a continuation of what’s been happening in the world since man has walked upright and even before that.
PS Hank, I hate to break it to you, but the world is more than 8,000 years old. That belief is only one example of the impact religion has on the way mankind thinks and percieves the world around him, and it has no bearing on reality.
Dear Mary,
You might be right. It could be almost 10,000 years old but I doubt it.
It doesn’t even make sense to believe it’s over 8,000 years old.
Hank
Great discussion guys…but I have to get out into the big bad world and earn a living. See ya later!
“When we evolve past our basic survival instincts things will change for the world”
I guess we’re stuck then. Waiting for evolution to do its thing. What does the scientific community think about this? I am concerned that we are shifting responsibility off of ourselves and putting it onto the evolutionary force.
In one respect, You, Mary are Right! IMO we can change but its not a matter of letting evolution somehow change us. We would be waiting for xxxxbillion years for that to happen.
evolution cannot act unless there is a differentiation favoring one behavior or trait over another.
if we are all the same there would be no evolving, sans genetic mutation which presumably would not affect human moralistic and social behavior.
thus, evolution will happen when people must chose to take on a behavior, then that behavior becomes favorable to other behaviors, and propagates
An area of Arctic sea ice the size of Florida has melted away in just the last six days as melting at the top of the planet continues at a record rate.http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/GlobalWarming/story?id=3582433&page=1
Republicans say not to worry……
When nations quit bullying each other, then the world has a chance.
The only way nations can achieve this goal is for their individuals to achieve it.
Posted by: ??????????? | September 11, 2007 at 09:43 AM
–And when individuals stop trying to take their neighbors’ property, then we may have peace.
Hank’s Typekey link, “sowhat.com”, goes directly to a pornographic website. Is this what passes for “Christian” values in the Price household?
“evolution will happen when people must chose to take on a behavior, then that behavior becomes favorable to other behaviors, and propagates”
That’s not evolution Brian. It’s learning.
Worry about what Snuffy? Corrupt politicians taking a perfectly natural event and trying to stampede us head long into socialism for their own political gain?
If the polar ice cap completely disappears what in the hell can we do about it if we don’t have any idea how we could have posibly caused it?
The fools of the earth are worried about global warming, I’m scared of the coming ice age!
http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/Articles%202004/Winter2003-4/global_warming.pdf
Hank
that is highly interesting, Tom…
outlander, the only difference between learning and social/societal evolution is time.
Hank,I one were to believe, as you do, that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, one would have to throw out any: scientific evidence to the contrary, of which there are encyclopedias written about; physics, as in the speed of light and the time it takes for light from other stars to get here; geology, as in the natural movement of continents.
Man? Maybe intelligent man, as far as that goes, which is not very. Too many things left behind by humans over 10,000 years ago.
Science at one time was controlled by religion. People were burned because they thought the earth was NOT the center of the universe. Guess who was wrong. Religion without science is useless.
You’re wrong on so many levels here, Hank, but that’s your belief.
By the way, yout typepad account does indeed point to some porno site. Might want to stop the son from surfing the wrong waters:-)
Dear Tom,
Thank’s for the heads up. (even if you did use it to make a disparaging remark about my values)
When at work the TypeKey will not accept my real email address. Neither will it allow me to post without a URL. So I made one up. I did try and go to sowhat.com to check and make sure it wasn’t an Amway website or some other disgusting place and it went nowhere.
I just tried it again, and it still didn’t take me anywhere. Sorry.
I’ve changed the URL to a happy place, enjoy.
Hank
Dear stumper,
I wonder how many people immediately went to sowhat.com to see the site.
I still did not get directed there from my computer at work. Again, I’ve changed the URL. TypeKew will still not allow me to post without giving one.
Throw out scientific evidence? It happens every day!
Hank
“I’ve changed the URL to a happy place, enjoy.”
O, man, Hank, are you sure you want to open that door:-)
“It is my personal belief that if you are in a leadership position from senator to president, you should have to come here and live with the soldiers on the ground”http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/09/10/iraq.soldiers/index.html
Yeah, like that’s going to happen.
“Throw out scientific evidence? It happens every day!”
Cherry-picking, are we?
Throw out ALL scientific evidence, Hank. That does not happen, unless done so by the religious, and only when it happens to disprove their religious beliefs.
There is a difference between fact and belief. When fact overides belief, as in the world is both round and NOT the center of the universe, then the beliefs have no basis in fact, and should be discarded.
When I went to Catholic school, they had no problem separating fact from faith. We were taught the age of the planet at over 4 billion years, dinasaours ruled for millions of years, and man was over one million years old.
Some religions are grounded in reality, while others are grounded in fear, as in you ain’t goin’ ta heben cause you don’t believe nonsense.
stumper, the problem with your reasoning is that for people like Hank, in his mind his beliefs are Facts and everyone else is wrong.
“The first creatures identifiable as hominid appeared between three and four million years ago. These early humans developed a system similar to symbiosis – living in 25 to 35 member hunter gatherer groups, their basic social system was the practice of cooperation and sharing. Cooperation and sharing assured the survival of our ancestors for over two million years. It was standard practice amongst hunter gatherer groups right up to the appearance of Homo Sapiens Sapiens (modern man) fifty thousand years ago and continued for an additional forty thousand years. Then, ten thousand years ago, the notion of privilege was discovered and began to mutate – eventually growing into a mind boggling series of mega systems which today would broadly be identified as political economics – including such self serving systems as royalty, imperialism, dictatorship, two party politics, profit making, preferential laws, accumulation of wealth (which is always pyramidal), slavery and war. Cooperation and sharing, a second cousin to symbiosis, has been abandoned in favor of practices which are basically parasitic.”– http://www.happyplace.net –
Hank,
I merely asked a question about how you interpret your household’s “Christian” values. It’s a question no different than the rhetoric other members of your household use here every day.
You’re the one who linked your profile to a pornographic website. Given the high moral ground you and your son insist you occupy on this blog, it’s _very_ fair to question why you would choose a pornographic website as the link for your profile.
Your protestations of “I didn’t know what it was” don’t get too far. It’s your profile, your password, your Typekey account. You’re responsible for it. Questioning you on it is not disparaging, and your attempt to turn this into some bad act on MY part are laughable, and typical of the radical “conservative” approach on this blog.
XXX, you might as well give ‘credit’ to Sgt Morgan for the quote.
I’m not sure that you or most other vets agree with this statement.
“Staff Sgt. Harry Thomas Morgan, on his third tour of duty, says, “It is my personal belief that if you are in a leadership position from senator to president, you should have to come here and live with the soldiers on the ground, not necessarily in the ‘Green Zone’ where we have the most luxuries.”
Everybody panic!
Go out and buy some Carbon Credits now from Al Gore’s company, so you can save the ice from melting!
Yeah, like that is really going to work.
“Cooperation and sharing”
IE: SOCIALISM OR COMMUNISM
From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Tom: Very disingenous of you. You had to know that Hank would never link to such a site knowing what it was.
A person with class might have casually pointed it out to him.
You might be right. It could be almost 10,000 years old but I doubt it.
It doesn’t even make sense to believe it’s over 8,000 years old.
Hank
Posted by: Hank Price | September 11, 2007 at 10:05 AM
*****
See, this is what is so absolutely frightening about the right-wing facists–their ability to willfully blind themselves to reality.
The universe is nearly 14 BILLION years old. Researchers have incontrovertible proof of this. It’s not even controversial. There is no pro and con side–there’s only one side–the correct side based on converging evidence from many different fields, astronomy, physics, biology etc.
That a seemingly normal sounding middle class citizen like Hank Price can believe a ridiculous superstition, something as stupid as “dragons eat the sun during an eclipse” or “sickness is a result of too much black bile and not enough yellow bile” says a lot about why we bogged down in an unwinnable war in Iraq under the Worst. President. Ever.
“Even a casual look at the long history of life on planet earth, provides a few clear insights into the reasons it succeeded in it’s battle for survival. Life established itself here between three and four billion years ago. It was tiny and fragile in the beginning. Mistakes could easily have caused it to fail. However, this did not happen. Why ? Ever wise, nature developed the process of natural selection. A process intended to fulfill the prime directive established for all life. Nature’s prime directive: “preservation of the species”. Certainly, nature accepts the loss of species due to environmental and catastrophic causes, but it has never wavered one iota from the original prime directive. It accepts it’s losses and patiently applies every effort to preserve the remaining species.”
– http://www.happyplace.net –
Outlander,
Disingenuous? You’re kidding, right? I’m not the so-called “family values Christian” posting porno links on the blog. Hank is. Yet I’m the bad guy now.
Hank and the rest of you so-called “conservatives” rant on and on every day about taking personal responsibility for one’s actions. But when YOU are the ones who are being held to account for your acts, you blame someone else, or you pretend ignorance.
Or is it pretense?
Well Tom,
Actually I gave a pretty reasonable account of my link to a pornagraphic website. Hell, I even apologized and changed it.
I think you might have a problem. When, for example have I ever claimed the ‘high moral ground’?
Hank
“As Communists we advocate Socialism because it is the next necessary step to get to Communism. That is, it’s not that we’ve given up on building a house, we just realize there is a need for a sturdy foundation first.”
http://www.geocities.com/commiett/difference.html
And this one just for Chas:
http://www.scn.org/~toddt/
Max, SSgt Morgan has failed one of the key rules of NCO management then.
From those higher in rank than SSgt Morgan, one gets Direction and Authority.
If you have higher ups exposed to the same conditions then you put them at risk. The “higher ups” are not technically competent as the well trained soldier to adapt and survive on the ground.
“Upper management” has a different set of tools to cope with the battlefield. They use large maps, briefing rooms, intelligence gathering, logistical overviews and other thing to get the bigger picture of a battlefield.
I’m sure SSgt Morgan wouldn’t want a four star general or Senator to come to his tent and micro-manage his situation.
Break down in the chain of command is good way to create chaos.
Acceptance of role and enacting that role is key to the success of a fighting unit. All actors in those roles have different means and methods to employ those roles.
It might be helpful to see what a soldier goes through, but it wouldn’t be helpful if the intent is “feel my pain” strategy.
Many senior officers are prior enlisted and know the “pain” of a spartan existence and being exposed directly to combat. There is no need to achieve close encounters to get the point.
Plus, you don’t put your planners in harm’s way. This has been known since the beginning of time.
Yes, feedback goes both ways. That’s why there are Senior NCO’s and Junior Officers around to let the “higher ups” know what is exactly going on. This level of management will tell their superiors that SSgt Morgan noted that sleeping in a hot tent in the summer in Iraq causes much more perspiration than there should be. SSgt Morgan recommends that “flaps up” be implemented on all tents so to get maximum air flow. (silly example but…)
This gets passed along via the chain of command, safety of the troops is considered, exposure to direct line of fire is considered and all measures weighed. The order comes through for “flaps up” and it appears to solve the problem.
That is how the military works, like it or not. :)
Hank,
Quite frankly, I don’t think you’re being honest about the link you posted. I think you either A) knew what it was, and linked there anyway, or B) your son changed your profile link without you knowing, and you’re covering for him.
I’m putting my money on (B). You’ve said yourself on this blog that Nathan resets your profile link without you knowing it.
“What is the difference between communism and socialism?”
According to Marx, socialism is a stage on the way to communism, which is the more advanced stage of humyn organization not yet achieved in China or the Soviet Union, even according to Lenin, Stalin and Mao.
According to Marx, under socialism we have a dictatorship of the proletariat which is a government organized for the defense of survival “rights.” Also, distribution goes by the principle “from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her work.”
“Under communism, according to Marx, the government disappears and there is economic cooperation as well. The principle of distribution becomes “from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her need.”
http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/commievssoc.html
Max–
The Soviet Union collapse.
Socialism-communism is no longer a spectre stalking the world.
Get over it, already.
Even the communists aren’t communist any more.
Sheesh.
Good God Max, and the rest of you wingers peeing your pants over “socialism” and “communism”.
Seeing a communist under every tea cup is so, well, 1950’s. Better you should be afraid of facism, but then, authoritarian personalities welcome it, so…
nevermind.
OMG, and now Max is quoting Marx?
heheh. HEHEH. HEE HEEHEH. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA….
And your point being Max??
Which one sounds more like Hillary Clinton?
A. Socialism cannot be built merely by taking over and using the old capitalist machinery of government; the workers must destroy the old and set up their own new state apparatus.
B. the march to socialism can be made step by step within the framework of the democratic forms of the capitalist state.
http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm
“from each according to his/her ability, to each according to his/her need.”
That was the economic system in use on Star Trek wasn’t it?
WTF? Now OPEC ups its output? heheheh. Bushco musta put out an emergency call to their buddies in OPEC that they NEEDED some political help prior to 2008. And notice, the increased output wont happen until AFTER the big winter heating oil demand.
I guess they’ll just skim the last bit of blood before they “show that we care” as one OPEC official said….
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070911/opec_meeting.html?.v=6
And blaming it on the subprime mortgate crisis? hehehhehehhe….
Chas, you were posting crap about how mankind is ‘evolving’ to some higher order.
That’s exactly the Communists and Socialists approach.
Y’all think Socialism and Communism are Dead?
1.5 Billion in China would argue otherwise.
And those holding their hands out in the USA would argue otherwise too. (At least if they were honest)
Of course, maybe they know some economic things we dont know, and they feel a need to “top off the coffers” before the recession is noticed?
Hmmm. Who else recently said they needed to top off the “coffers”? Maybe there was a reason for bush to slip and say OPEC instead of APEC.
Wonder to whom he last spoke before the speech?
What I posted came right off of Hank’s Type Key web site, Max…
Max, the shark is now calling and asking to speak to you…
And there isnt a darn thing there that is communists, or socialist…
Besides, Marx MIGHT have gotten his now famous quote, from the Book of the Acts of the Apostles… Chs. 2, 3, 4… selected verses…
“And those holding their hands out in the USA”
You mean like the corporate welfare queens? You might have a point there sol, er, max…
ksfarmgrrl Bush may have friends in OPEC, but I don’t think he has enough friends in OPEC to accomplish that trick. Most of the countries in OPEC are not that friendly with us. Many of the OPEC countries are not in the Middle East.
Chas,
Hank has already made it clear that he’s not responsible for the sites he links his Typekey profile to. You’re the bad guy for mentioning it, or quoting from it.
Sheesh.
Doncha know nuthin?
“Most of the countries in OPEC are not that friendly with us.”
Maybe not, but they are DAMN sure friendly with the bush crime family, cheney and halliburton.
Carlyle Group and the bin Ladens anyone?
Isn’t the Dems who are crying all the time that we should talk to people.
Well, there it is.
Bush has been talking and keeping in close contact with the Saudi Royal Family and other Oil Moguls in the region.
Did you want Bush to sit on his hands and do nothing?
Oh Darn, that’s right Tom!! LOL
Ok, Chas, so you were not arguing that we are “devolving”, though you were advocating that a Socialist approach to “Cooperation and Sharing” would be better.
You were simply and mindlessly copying/pasting from Hank’s erroneously typed link to make fun of him! Atta boy Pastor! Good deed for the day is now done.
And now Chas, you use the Bible to push your Socialist agenda. Lovely!
You want to have your beliefs kept private and not attacked, yet you display them to support your Socialist arguments.
Chas, your religious beliefs are fair game for being questioned on this blog, as long as YOU keep bringing them up in your arguments.
You can’t have it both ways.
“Cooperation and sharing, a second cousin to symbiosis, has been abandoned in favor of practices which are basically parasitic.”– http://www.happyplace.net –
Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 11:44 AM
You were simply and mindlessly copying/pasting from Hank’s erroneously typed link
Posted by: Max
HAH! That’s a good one.
“Did you want Bush to sit on his hands and do nothing?”
Depends on what the conversation was about. If it was for the good of the USA, that’s one thing.
If it was to “top off the coffers” of the bush crime family at our expense, then I guess I’d rather have him do nothing.
And knowing bushco, what do YOU think was going on?
Max, the shark was tired of holding so he left you this message:
STOP JUMPING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!
If it was to “top off the coffers” of the bush crime family at our expense, then I guess I’d rather have him do nothing.
And knowing bushco, what do YOU think was going on?
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | September 11, 2007 at 12:24 PM
I suppose if you want to believe in “tinfoil hat” conspiracy, that’s fine.
However, those of us who like to actually use our brains to reason, then there is much ado about nothing.
ksfarmgrrl I would need proof that OPEC as an organization is doing what you say. Individual members of OPEC like several of the Middle Eastern ones probably are, but the rest, I doubt. Libya, Iran, the African countries, and Venezuela do not strike me as open to friendliness with Bush or the others.
I don’t consider Nov. 1 as happening after the big winter heating oil time.
OPEC cares more about its own profit than anything else.
Max, I just figured Hank might want to know what is on the web site he linked up to…
And I merely mentioned a few chapters for the New Testament… Those hardly are my “beliefs”
And, come to think of it, why dont you tell us who you really are???
“However, those of us who like to actually use our brains to reason, then there is much ado about nothing.”
How old is your earth?
How old is your earth?
Posted by: brian | September 11, 2007 at 12:28 PM
Exactly the same age as yours.
Wow, that would mean Kansas doesnt agree that the Earth is only 8,000 years old… or maybe 10,000??? Hurray!!!
Some interesting Petraeus links:
1. Washington Post, “Petraeus Backs Initial Pullout,” 9/11/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2958&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=5 2. Ibid.3. New York Times, “Time to Take a Stand,” 9/7/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2941&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=64. Washington Post, “Experts Doubt Drop in Violence in Iraq,” 9/6/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2938&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=75. ABC News, “Iraqis’ Own Surge Assessment,” 9/10/07http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=35715046. Washington Post, “Experts Doubt Drop in Violence in Iraq,” 9/6/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2938&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=87. Associated Press, “1,809 Iraqi civilians killed in August,” 9/1/07http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20543737/8. Los Angeles Times, “Iraqi civilian deaths climb again,” 9/1/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2956&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=99. http://www.iCasualties.org10. Washington Post, “Among Top Officials, ‘Surge’ Has Sparked Dissent, Infighting,” 9/9/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2957&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=1011. Washington Post, “Scarier than Bin Laden,” 9/9/07http://www.moveon.org/r?r=2959&id=11221-5206601-lLXyv4&t=11
I’ve seen a lot above of wishing for changes in the nature of man to get peace.
Waiting for human nature to change to get real peace is a fool’s errand. Human nature has NEVER changed, from the beginning of man to today, and never will. The things that drive us are exactly the same things that have always driven us, and it will always be so, this side of heaven. Any policy, any social change which fails to deal with that reality of human nature is doomed to fail. As a species, we are greedy, selfish, and when it serves our interests, violent. On any sort of societal level, it is unchangeable, though individuals certainly can choose otherwise.
Any social policy which relies for success on any incentive or rationale other than the self-interest of the participants is, in the long run, doomed to fail.
Deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it was. As a species, we are what we are, and we will always be so.
Personally Chas, I think it’s a mistake to add literal calendar years in describing the earth especially from the Biblical sense. However, I won’t fault anyone, if that’s their belief and neither should you Chas.
God knows what happened and when (if you strictly define “when”.) It is not up to me to assign artificial constructs to make up descriptive eras.
According to Petraeus/Whitehouse,
Car bombings dont count on death counts…
Assasinations only count if they are shot in the back of the head; not the front…
AND —
Iraqis believe the surge has failed. According to a massive new ABC/BBC poll, every single Iraqi polled in Baghdad, the primary target of the “surge,” said it had made security worse. Iraqis themselves overwhelmingly think the situation in Iraq is deteriorating, in terms of security, political cooperation, the economy, and other measures. Overall, 70% think the escalation worsened rather than improved security conditions.
Most interesting items…
It’s things like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×2986447
That make us think things like this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1782992
So Chas, you’re on a campaign to discredit Petraues, an honorable man?
Typical vicious Lib tactic.
No Sir — Just the Facts…
Chas, if I were you, I’d walk on by.
Unless you want to spend the next three hours on a “f you, no F YOU” thread…
Car bombings dont count on death counts…Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 12:38 PM
Chas, if you would have watched the Congressional briefing with Petraeus you would have seen that question asked and answer by Petraeus.
All those “not count this or that death” are patently false as described by Petraeus.
All your tinfoil hat Websites are spreading false rumors and you’re naive enough to believe them Chas.
God, guns and gays.
It never fails.
Yeah, walk on by Chas if the truth is to be told.
The Dems certainly don’t want to hear the truth if it gets in the way of their politics.
Any social policy which relies for success on any incentive or rationale other than the self-interest of the participants is, in the long run, doomed to fail.
Deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it was.
Posted by: GMC70 | September 11, 2007 at 12:37 PM
Excellent advice for the Bush Administration. It’s a shame they’d never hear it.
And, come to think of it, why dont you tell us who you really are???
Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 12:27 PM
It’s just killin ya, isn’t it Chas?
Isn’t it more interesting to see if the logical and emotional appeals in the written words themselves can be the driving force in the debate of the hot topics of life?
Or do you need to know a person’s name, what they look like, what political color are they, how tall are they, what color is their skin, are they male or female, what’s their religion, etc…?
Or Chas, maybe personal attacks are what you prefer. At least that’s all you have left, when you run out of rationale.
Gee, Kansas I heard it for myself… And so did the other many reporters that were there…
Maybe you should go read up on it again….
Time for a WALK!!! I dont have three hours for any of this Reich Wing nonsense today…
Ummm Max >>>>
“Or do you need to know a person’s name, what they look like, what political color are they, how tall are they, what color is their skin, are they male or female, what’s their religion, etc…?”
Those arent MY questions… I dont think you are reading so good!!
I’m outta here… gotta go join up with the 70% who got it right!! LOL
BTW, Moveon.org’s ad was just a tad bit off base… They really need to work on that more… They should possibly apologize, too…
And, come to think of it, why dont you tell us who you really are???
Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 12:27 PM
And Chas, what is your interpretation of your own words?
You twist your own words almost as much as you twist the Bible!
Max you are playing the part of a Troll for some reason… disrupting posting, with personal attacks, making flamer type comments, without need to do so…
Thats why I asked… That’s all!!
Chas was proven wrong and ran away as usual.
When others like KFG, CapnAmerica and others of her ilk are proven wrong, they type “Walk on by.”
It’s their code words and methods of not saying, “I screwed up.”
I havent twisted the Bible… I just listed a few references… Make of them what you will….
Right on GMC70. I agree with your assesment on human nature. However, we do know how do behave better, but we choose not to more than we would like to admit.
How hard is it to refrain from calling somebody a dumb-ss when they post something we don’t agree with? Is it better to refrain? Yes, but how hard is it to respond politely and logically? well you see the results…
Its not hard to understand why there is so much fighting in the world when you read any typical WEblog!!!!
Kansas, you havent proven me wrong on anything today… Not ONE thing… Why dont you attack what I have posted, instead of your usual screwed up personal attacks!!
Chas calling the kettle black.
LOL!
BTW, Moveon.org’s ad was just a tad bit off base Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 12:52 PM
I would suggest that moveon.org take a trip to an Army Ranger encampment and get some attitude adjustment. :)
A “tad off base?”
It was reprehensible!
Chas is spazzing out now in typical fashion.
LUNCH!!! I’m gone!!!
Later….
Kansas… why dont you stop Hannitizing what is said, and post the entire thing… I SAID they need to apologize!! Geez…
Darn Reich Wingnuts!!
How hard is it to refrain from calling somebody a dumb-ss when they post something we don’t agree with? Is it better to refrain? Yes, but how hard is it to respond politely and logically? well you see the results…
Its not hard to understand why there is so much fighting in the world when you read any typical WEblog!!!!
It is a lot easier to refrain if people would use their brains and think about it before responding.
As to your second point, I agree. I am a member of several blogs, and I see the same things there even if the blogs are not political.
Chas you know you started this last face off between you and Nathan. I actually asked you why you felt the need to step in and ridicule Nathan when the left, in this case Cap, made fun of his Christian beliefs. That is your pattern – kind of a ‘me too’ attitude to gain favor with the left.
You had jumped in with some cheap shot about evolution after Caps remark. You need to admit what you do and stop with the victim act.
Nathan feels the need to defend his Christian beliefs. Would you of all people fault him for this?
Chas, I don’t watch or listen to Hannity, he is a little to squirmy for my tastes.
I watched the Congressional briefing where those questions of “being shot in the back of the head” and “car bomb” question was asked about.
Petraeus answered them and it is quite clear to me, you are unaware of the answer as you repeated the false accusation from a “tinfoil hat” Website.
CapnAmerica,
If that was the Bible lesson today in church, you should already have your answer.
I have never said that I believe “that every word of the Bible is literally true without needing any interpretation.”
Posted by: Nathan | September 09, 2007 at 05:56 PM
Except or Creation Vs. Evolution, eh?? ROFL!!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 09, 2007 at 05:57 PM
This was the passage that started the whole thing. Chas why did you feel the need to jump into a ‘conversation’ between Cap and Nathan?
Looks like baiting to me.
Wow, the whole Fuc k you, no F uck you, shits already started pretty early today No doubt the Nathan vs Chas who’s the better Christian fight will start shortly
Wow, the whole F you, no F you
It happens every day without fail, unless they take a day off sometimes. Add my voice to the numerous others, Wichita Eagle deal with this crap. If they haven’t answered other people’s pleas, I doubt they will answer mine.
For every decent post on this blog, there are probably 15 or more wasted blog spaces ones. At least on some blogs, you have the option of putting posters on your ignore list. It would speed up reading if they did it here.
Tom I intended to end the debate not start it up. Chas drags it on and on and Nathan help him. Chas always acts so innocent and his ‘who me’ face is getting pretty ugly.
I say lay it out let everyone make up their minds and move on. We certainly have lots of other topics today to discuss.
As a species, we are greedy, selfish, and when it serves our interests, violent. On any sort of societal level, it is unchangeable, though individuals certainly can choose otherwise.
Any social policy which relies for success on any incentive or rationale other than the self-interest of the participants is, in the long run, doomed to fail.
Deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it was. As a species, we are what we are, and we will always be so.
Posted by: GMC70 | September 11, 2007 at 12:37 PM
Outstanding post GMC. You said much more clearly what I was trying to say before.
When individuals stop trying to take their neighbors’ property, then we may have peace.
Our human nature isn’t going to change.
We will never stop trying to take our neighbors property, so we will always have war.
And we will always have a conflict between those who want to sustain themselves on their own, and those who want to share in some collective way.
Ksgrm, I am not going to discuss it with you… since you are not “nice enough” to refer to the entire thread…. I was not just jumping in… There was plenty that had already be said before that… And I wasnt the one who started it…
And I am not going to get into a piss and bitch session with you about what YOU believe, and what I believe… I already did that the other day, if you havent forgotten…. I have nothing to say to you!! And YOU should have nothing to say to ME!!
I am sure that Marine boy can fight his own battles that he is constantly starting up here… I have told him to just leave me alone…
And now I tell YOU the same thing… Leave Me Alopne!!
Then don’t post Chas if you don’t what you write questioned. It’s that simple, it really is.
what=want
Kansas I will post here any time I feel like it… And I will IGNORE those who just want to go cherry pickin…. like YOU, and Nathan, and KsGrm, and Max too…
Kansas I will post here any time I feel like it… And I will IGNORE those who just want to go cherry pickin…. like YOU, and Nathan, and KsGrm, and Max too…
Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 02:04 PM
Then quit whining if you get responded to.
I would suggest that moveon.org take a trip to an Army Ranger encampment and get some attitude adjustment. :)Posted by: Kansas |
This isn’t the first time that “Kansas” aka Trollboy has suggested/implied/whatever that members of our Armed Forces, who are sworn to protect and defend our Constitution, would injure those who are exercising their _rights_ under that same Constitution.
Haven’t you learned yet?
It’s political satire and free speech Tom.
Get over it.
Oh wait, I forgot you can’t get over anything as the blog’s designated grudge holder.
Grudge holder? Holding you accountable for the trash that comes out of your keyboard is grudge-holding?
What happened to the traditional Republicans who believed in personal responsibility?
Oh, right. They’re switching to the Democratic Party. Nevermind.
LOL Tom!! good point!!
Tom,
I would hardly call making false accusations against posters holding people accountable.
It might make you feel better about yourself to call it that, but it still doesn’t change your underhanded intentions.
I do accept Hank’s explanation. I’ve never really known him to lie about anything on here, so I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Now opinion about your son and his harassment (and it is harassment) of Chas’s religious beliefs, that’s another story.
Nathan does not need to know which denomination Chas belongs to. Chas doesn’t wish to disclose it. It’s very mainstream, and he’s even given plenty of clues as to which one it is- if Nathan knew history, it shouldn’t have been hard to figure out.
Nathan, are you the one who put porn on your dads computer?
Nathan,
Show me:
- Where I made a “false accusation;”
- What part of the “accusation” was false;
- The evidence you have proving it false;
- Documentation of my “underhanded intentions.” Please be specific with this, and provide links to where I have an “intention” that is “underhanded.”
Thanks.
Documentation of my “underhanded intentions.” Please be specific with this, and provide links to where I have an “intention” that is “underhanded.”
Thanks.
Posted by: Tom | September 11, 2007 at 02:43 PM
I detect flame-baiting.
Dear Tom,
Final words.
A while back, while having problems trying to post I put in bcca.org as a URL. Someone went to it and found it to be a link to the Baha’i Computer and Communications Association. Gleefully they questioned my Christianity based on this erroneous URL.
Anyone that knows me knows my passion is dogs, Bearded Collies specifically. http://www.beardie.net/bcca/ is the website I was trying to link to.
Since then I’ve tried to be at least a little more careful when using a URL. Now sowhat.com may be pornographic, I only have your word for that, when I try to access it it redirects me then times out. I did try to access it after I used it on my TypeKey sign in.
As for your suspicions that I am merely covering for my boy again you’re wrong. I’m at my computer at work.
You have absolutely no reason to doubt anything I write here about my personal life. Anytime you question my credibility without reason or proof you merely give us a brief look into your character. It’s not a very flattering look.
Hank
Trollboy,
I can prove the statements I make here, such as your threats against other posters, and your statements about how members of our military would somehow punish those of us who exercise our Constitutional rights. Nathan made an assertion about my intentions. Let’s see his proof.
????????????? because some people make dumbass posts just to be obnoxious.
I know, I prefer good debate, but geez it’s gotten to the point of why? Even if you present downright factual evidence and commentary, someone is going to come back with either Troll posts or something ridiculous.
I used to be one of those posters who backed up everything and tried to look at both sides. I was even swayed by some evidence brought forth by others on the opposite side. Till later, when I found out that information was a lie too.
It’s like those who still deny that Bush lied. I almost feel sorry for someone who is so incredibly blind. You wonder what their kids can get away with.
Hank,
This won’t be gentle, but I have to ask: Do you really expect me to believe that you’re ignorant or unintelligent enough to put porno links on your profile without knowing what they are? I mean, hey, if that’s your answer and you want to stick with it, go ahead.
FYI, it doesn’t matter what computer you post with, once you’re signed into your profile. I regularly post from three different locations, and once signed in, I get the profile I’ve created, _without_ any links to porno sites.
http://sowhat.com/ right off Hank,s Account not very Christian?
Thanks for the kind words political_mom!
I’m leaving for Salina tomorrow night. Thursday I’ll be helping set up for the dog show. Friday is our day (Wichita Kennel Club) so I’ll probably be working somewhere at the Bi-Centennial Center helping put on the show.
Saturday and Sunday I’ll be out at Cecil’s place SE of town helping with the herding trials.
Hope to see you!
Hank
Tom,
The fact that you refuse to take my fathers explanation and continue to dredge on as if he purposfully posted to a porn site regardless of what he or the several other posters have said in regards to his character is my proof of your underhanded intentions.
Hank — All you have to do to make sure you dont have any problems posting up a URL, is type in something like, http://www.yahoo.com, or aol.com; those are always safe to type in… And as for an email address, just use your own… It wont show up on the Blog anyway, unless somebody has figured out a way to hack into the Blog…
That’s the one thing I’ve noticed about 90 percent of Libs, they don’t know how to forgive or forget.
I’ve never clicked on Hank’s nic and personally could care less what it links to.
The Libs obsessing with this matter and on their usual path of pathetic loser ship and character assassination.
If Hank said it was mistake, that’s good enough for me.
Nathan,
What’s underhanded about saying “I don’t believe you” ? It’s what I think.
Let’s see:
Number of porno links, on this thread alone, posted by “Hank Price” today: 4
Number of porno links, on this or any other thread, today or any other day, posted by me: 0
I think we have a winner!
In regards to Chas….
-There are several posters here who routinely say mean and untruthful things about Christianity.
-Those posters who routinely say those mean things also are the first ones to praise Chas on being the better Christian.
-I am not here to argue who the better Christian is.
-I am/was simply trying to figure out what Chas actually believed because I honestly don’t think he is a Christian.
-I am not going to make those accusations without hearing from Chas what it is that he believes first.
-Chas refuses to say what he believes.
-Chas routinely sides with those who say mean things and untruthful things about Christianity as they call him the better Christian.
-Chas has in the past interjected the fact that he is a minister in order to claim an authority on a subject.
-If Chas is going to interject himself as an authority and routinely take the sides of those who demean Christianity and then use scripture against me then I will continue to question his beliefs.
-Chas opened the door to being questioned.
Its not impossible that someone hacked Hank’s account to embarrass him
Tom will continue with his spittle-flecked accusations until he blows a gasket and calls everyone gay haters.
Tom,
Simply saying “I don’t believe you” is not underhanded.
It is your other comments, which go beyond, which are.
Tom Paine,
Hank admitted, way upthread, to putting that link in his profile.
Trollboy,
What does Hank’s porno links have to do with gay issues??? And where have I ever done what you’re suggesting? Links, please!
You’re just flame-baiting now Tom. You brought it up to Hank’s attention and he fixed it.
That should be the end of it.
Anything else is what you do the most all the time on this Blog, flame-bait.
I beat up on YOUR brand of Christianity Nathan. The hateful kind. You know that bumper sticker that says ‘Jesus, protect me from your followers”….that’s how I feel about some Christians.
“I am/was simply trying to figure out what Chas actually believed because I honestly don’t think he is a Christian.
-I am not going to make those accusations without hearing from Chas what it is that he believes first.”
Isn’t that a completely opposite statement? If he tells you, you already have accused him of lying about being a Christian, so what’s to keep you from continuing to say he’s lying about what else he believes? We’ve gone around and around with you on this. It’s old. Let it flipping go.
Except, I’m still waiting for you to answer why Mormons aren’t Christians.
I just love the radicon approach to discussion: “WE SCREWED UP, AND IT’S ALL THE DEMS FAULT!”
It’s playing out in microcosm on today’s open thread.
…and I’m still waiting for those links…
Political Mom,
I don’t think he is a liar. I don’t believe he is intentionally trying to deceive anyone. I think he believes Christians can be or believe many things and still be one, which I disagree with. Doesn’t make him a liar.
I would like to know what he thinks a Christian is. That is what I most likely disagree with.
Political Mom,
Mormons have some pretty different beliefs.
For starters, their ultimate belief that God is only one of many gods and that the closer to perfection they can obtain they can become gods just like God and do the exact same thing that God did with a planet and people…
It would take me a page or more to describe in detail, that was a quick summary.
Mormons also believe that we were all spirit children in the previous life…
some of their beliefs would have been pretty racist too, but they have over the past centry tried to modify and clean up what they release and claim to sound more reasonable…
Like what they thought about why some people are black.
I BELIEVE IN THE GREAT FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, COME DOWN FROM UP ON PASTA HILL…
I BELIEVE IN NOT TELLING NATHAN ANYTHING MORE ABOUT MY FAITH THAN I ALREADY HAVE… SINCE NATHAN ALREADY HAS DECIDED FOR HIMSELF THAT I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN…
GEE, MAYBE I CAN DECIDE HE ISNT ONE TOO… WOULDNT THAT BE JUST DUCKY… OH WELL, OFF TO SEE THE WIZARD… LATER ALL!!
http://www.mrm.org/topics/miscellaneous/black-skin-and-seed-cain
Kind of give you an idea about it.
Just being honest Chas….
I have never met a Christian who refused to tell me what he believes about Christ.
Perhaps I should restate what I said.
Chas might very well be a Christian. What I should have said was that I don’t think his beliefs about what makes someone a Christian are correct.
I am not defending Mormons… BUT, they seem to have gotten their ideas about becoming as God from one of the Psalms that says, “And you shall be as gods…”
They got their ideas about baptisms for the Dead right out of I Corinthians 15….
They get their ideas about “many gods” from a somewhat ecclectic understanding of “Triune God” or some call Trinity… or Three in One….
And you know, the strangest thing is, they will quote you chapter and verse from the Bible for just about anything you want to challenge them on…
It sounds SOO familiar to others I have encountered…. eery even…
What I should have said was that I don’t think his beliefs about what makes someone a Christian are correct.
Posted by: Nathan | September 11, 2007 at 03:20 PM
======================
Since I have said NOTHING about what I think makes someone a Christian, that would make your statement sit on somewhat precarious grounds there, Nathan… Better try that one again!!
Again… I have said NOTHING about what I believe makes someone a Christian… In fact I told you I was NOT going to go there…
But yet you insist on making it an Issue yet another day…
JUST STOP IT…. YOU ARE ACTING LIKE A JUVENILE WITH NO SENSE!!
Chas,
As a minister, what do you think about forming doctrine?
Specifically, do you believe that doctrine is formed off of continuity throughout the Bible or can you just pick any verse and use it to form doctrine?
Does context play a role in understanding a verse so that you don’t form an doctrine off of it… kind of like you have shown the Mormons to do?
YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE, NATHAN??? IT ISNT FOR YOU OR ANYBODY ELSE TO DECIDE WHO IS, AND WHO IS NOT A CHRISTIAN…. SO THERE!! JUST LEAVE IT ALONE, AND DROP IT!!
Chas,
Wouldn’t be simpler to just tell us what it is you do think then?
Clear up the water. Put an end to the doubt.
Lets hear it Chas!
What makes someone a Christian and why are you one?
NOPE!! NOT GOING TO DO IT!! I AM DONE WITH THIS ENTIRE HARRASSMENT CRAP OF YOURS… IN FACT, I AM ABOUT HALF AN INCH FROM COMPLAINING TO WEBLOG ABOUT IT… DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY, YOU ARE CONSTANTLY HARRASSING ME ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE, OR HOW I BELIEVE, OR WHY I BELIEVE….
NONE OF THAT IS ANY OF YOUR DARNED BUSINESS!!!! AND I AM NOT GOING TO PLAY YOUR STUPID LITTLE GAME!!
In the words of the great, W.C. Fields, “Go away, kid, you bother me!!!”
Chas,
Ok Chas. I’ll drop until the next time you quote scripture or mention that you are minister or Christian.
Probably because like JW’s, from childhood, there was nothing but study from the bible…chapter and verse for everything. It wasn’t a lot of regurgitated prayers and tradition. You studied bible. Every day. From the time you could read.
JW’s do not believe in the trinity, and therefore, are often accused of not being Christian either.
I will post what I want, when I want, and I dont care what you post about it… I will not discuss it with you further!! You dont want discussion, you want adversarial argument, and I am NOT going to do that!!
Got it???
I just love the double-standard of hypocrisy here. It’s okay to endlessly badger liberal Christians about their faith, but it’s NOT okay to question so-called “family values” Christians about their posting of pornography on the blog.
Thats pretty much the way it is PMom… and yet, they will argue till they are blue in the face that they are Christians…
Same as the Mormons… I wont say they arent Christians, because that isnt for anybody to decide, except for Nathan…
I just think they have some real strange ideas… And I have some family who are Mormons…
Chas,
If you don’t care what I post about it, are you still going to turn me in for harrassment?
Tom, it’s getting worse than hypocrisy… approaching harrassment even….
Tom,
The difference is that my father answered your questions and explained himself.
If Chas did the same then I wouldn’t need to keep asking the questions…
Yea, Nathan, if you keep coming after ME I will… and there is a ton of material on here to show that VERY easily….
I also told your Dad how to solve the problem for good… I dont know if he will do it, or not, but it would save him a lot of hassle….
Chas,
If I told you that Jesus was the devil and I didn’t listen to or believe anything He said, yet I called myself a Christian…
Would you still say it isn’t your place to say otherwise?
I am just wondering if you have a line or not.
Would you EVER say someone wasn’t a Christian, regardless of the complete absurdity of their claims to be one?
Nathan, ONE MORE TIME… You have no NEED to know the answers to the questions you keep badgering me with!! You KNOW who I am, and what I do for a vocation in life… That is ALL you need to know… I actually think a few folks were just teasing your dad to start with… at least thats how it looked to me…
I just dozed off for a quick nap, and SURPRISE, I wake up and it’s 9/11/2011 and guess what I find?
Nathan and Chas STILL going at it!
You guys should do a stand-up act together!
Well, Nathan, I guess that leaves us in a quandary, doesn’t it? On one hand, I don’t believe your father is stupid enough to unknowingly post a link to a porno site, especially in the manner and number of times he did. On the other hand, I don’t believe either he or you are stupid enough to think I’d buy the “explanation” he gave.
So there we are. We’re all smart people, at least smart enough to log on, create profiles, and breathe on our own. But not smart enough to check the link we’re using as part of our profile. Sorry, but I’m not buying it.
See, Nathan, that is just the point… I dont care WHAT you believe… I know what I believe… I am comfortable with it… YOU dont need to know anything more than that!!
WHAT IS SO HARD TO GRASP HERE???
YOU ARE MAKING AN ASS OF YOURSELF!! DONT YOU GET IT???
MAX, IT ISNT FUNNY… IT IS EVEN BEYOND ABSURD… DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY AFTER DAY, I AM CONSTANTLY HARASSED BECAUSE OF WHAT I DO FOR A VOCATION IN THIS LIFE… DAY AFTER DAY, HARRASSMENT…. THIS IS GOING TO STOP ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!
Is Hank in violation of his type key account agreement?
Golly gee, Blue, I would hope not!!
Chas,
These were completely different questions…
You said:
“Same as the Mormons… I wont say they arent Christians, because that isnt for anybody to decide, except for Nathan…”
So obviously you were taking a jab at me for saying someone wasn’t a Christian.
So now I asked you:
If I told you that Jesus was the devil and I didn’t listen to or believe anything He said, yet I called myself a Christian…
Would you still say it isn’t your place to say otherwise?
I am just wondering if you have a line or not.
Would you EVER say someone wasn’t a Christian, regardless of the complete absurdity of their claims to be one?
You are fair game now Chas.
not going there nathan… i told you that how many times now???
THIS IS GOING TO STOP ONE WAY OR ANOTHER!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 11, 2007 at 03:42 PM
Is this a threat of bodily harm?
This probably won’t help much but I think it is relevant to this discussion.
I Peter 3:15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
I DON’T HAVE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS!
DO YOU HEAR ME!
About time to stop the all CAPs.
I see Chas…
You can poke fun at me, but cry about my asking you questions?
Nope… no bodily harm mentioned, or implied… there are many ways to stop this nonsense
If truth is poking fun at you, then I guess I am… however you want to spin it, spin it… You are quite good at that too…
I guess you can trust Chas not to go off the deep end Nathan.
He said he meant you no harm.
And you’ve NEVER seen Chas go OFF THE DEEP END HAVE WE!
blah blah blah…
Clinton to Return Money Linked to Fund-Raiser $850,000
Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s presidential campaign announced last night that it would return about $850,000 to about 260 donors who had been recruited or tapped by Norman Hsu, the disgraced Clinton campaign fund-raiser who recently fled arrest and is now under investigation for his fund-raising practices.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/11/us/politics/11hsu.html?hp
Chas since I feel I started this latest discussion I think I have the right to weigh in.
When you denigrate Christians I will answer every time.
When you call me or any other Christian less that flattering names I will answer every time.
When you side with your leftist buddies against a Christian post I will answer every time.
Do you get the trend. Your actions have reactions. Get off your pity party. Take off the ‘poor me’ face and act like a man.
Let it go or better yet answer the questions. … men who deny Me before man I will deny before My Father in heaven.
You don’t have to agree with that but you can’t expect those to do believe it to back off either.
Good Day and God bless, who ever you believe your god to be.
How much DIRTY money has Hillary Clinton returned so far?
Today on 9/11, Hillary annouced that $850,000 would be returned to 260 people who were recruited by Mr. Hsu, to donate money to Hillary.
On 8/29, Hillary said she was giving $23,000 collected directly from Mr. Hsu to charity, why?
Because Mr. Hsu is a fugitive from justice – and is STILL no where to be found.
(Prediction – Mr. Hsu will never be found. He’s wearing cement shoes in the same location as Jimmy Hoffa)
What happened to the money from Mr. Pew?
Max thanks for the link. It is as if this news never happened. Hillary was willing to give back $23,000 after all why didn’t the right back off.
By the way my link to the number of terrorists attacks that happen everyday was an eyeopener for me. We need to look closely and see the pattern of radical islam.
This is the problem that needs to be met.
Where is the outcry from the Party of Ethics!?!
Why have the Democrats not yet launched a Congressional Investigation into the Clinton Campaign Scandal?
“You guys should do a stand-up act together!
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 03:39 PM”
I am evisioning an Abbott and Costello-esque “Who’s on First” routine.Except Nathan could have his Marine outift and Chas could have his preacher outfit.Talk about some good comedy!
KSgrm, I can’t keep track of all the Hillary campaign money being returned.
There’s much out there, and this DIRTY money has touched Ted Kennedy’s hands and also Obama!
Missed your link on the terrorist attacks, where was it?
“Investigation into the Clinton Campaign Scandal?
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 04:12 PM ”
scandal it would have become if they had denied it, covered it up, said everyone was doing it, then invaded Iraq.
Rather than scandal, they admitted mistake, returned money and moved on.
Good learning point for many Repubicans
Max one thing about returning money to Mr. Shu is that this is money he defrauded victims of. It needs to go back to his victims. Now we have felons going after innocent victims to fund the demo race for prez.
I do remember reading that he turned up on a train with no clothes on. Seems to be going for an insanity plea.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/07/MN9OS10B5.DTL
Fugitive fundraiser Hsu captured in Colorado
just giving you a heads up Max
Repubicans : I mean Republicans
(maybe)
Brian, I thought the comedy act was a good idea, but Chas doesn’t have much of a sense of humor today, and then Nathan left.
Oh well. Maybe they are working on their script?
http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php
Max this the link I was referring to.
Terrorist attacks with news story coverage. NOtice the coverage is small and doesn’t make it into our global news reporting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AvewgxdGFg John 8.7 very enlighting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuSt2r54DPY also very funny.
Wow Nathan, I’ve been out a few days and hadn’t heard they caught Hsu.
That link you posted showing SOME of the donations given to Dems by Hsu reads like the Who’s Who Among Democratic Party Members List!
“Hsu, listed as a “Hillraiser” committed to bringing in $100,000 or more to the presidential campaign of New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, has given an estimated $600,000 of his own money to candidates ranging from San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom and Assemblywoman Fiona Ma to presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois. Hsu has helped raise hundreds of thousands more through high-profile events in New York and California and served on the board of trustees of New York City’s New School university at the request of Bob Kerrey, the university’s president and former Democratic senator from Nebraska.
The size and scope of Hsu’s contributions made him one of the party’s largest individual contributors. While he gave $23,000 to Clinton and $7,000 to Obama, he also gave $62,000 to New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, $50,000 to New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, and $50,000 to the New York State Democratic Party.”
(From Nathan’s link above at 4:14pm)
I checked http://www.globalincidentmap.com/home.php and i dont see bomb threats at Walmarts, Banks, and restaurants as global terrorism threats. wasn’t the Hutch bomb threat at Dillon’s/walmart a hillbilly retard?
Rather than scandal, they admitted mistake, returned money and moved on.
Good learning point for many Repubicans
Posted by: brian | September 11, 2007 at 04:14 PM
Now Brian, you think this is the END of the story? It’s just the begining!
You can’t steal a car, get caught, give it back and expect not to go to jail! (Or expect to continue to run for President!)
Tom Paine you know you might be right but are you will to put your life in jeapardy on the chance that it is just hillbillies having a good time?
Hillbillies are a lot more sophistigated than they used to be and alot bettered traveled.
Gotta go. Granddaughter volleyball game starts at 5.
Very interesting link KSgrm. Will have to spend some time on that one.
Wasn’t the title of the linked “thing” posted by ksgrm “Terrorist or Suspicious…”?
“You can’t steal a car, get caught, give it back and expect not to go to jail! (Or expect to continue to run for President!)
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 04:28 PM ”
so are you implying that Hillary, et al stole money, got caught, then gave it back?
I thought Hsu stole money, contributed it to campaigns, the candidates found out, the candidates gave the money back (they have no legal right to give it to anyone other than the person that contributed it), and now Hsu has been arrested.
They don’t seem to be the same
Brian, Hsu was listed as a “Hillraiser” for Hillary. Do you think that Hillary does NOT know who her Top contributers are?
In any case, there should be an investigation. If this was Giuliani you better believe there would be a criminal investigation!
“Hsu, listed as a “Hillraiser” committed to bringing in $100,000 or more to the presidential campaign of New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, has given an estimated $600,000 of his own money to candidates ranging from San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom and Assemblywoman Fiona Ma to presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois.”
San Francisco Chronicle:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/09/07/MN9OS10B5.DTL
????????????? because some people make dumbass posts just to be obnoxious.
I know, I prefer good debate, but geez it’s gotten to the point of why? Even if you present downright factual evidence and commentary, someone is going to come back with either Troll posts or something ridiculous.
I used to be one of those posters who backed up everything and tried to look at both sides. I was even swayed by some evidence brought forth by others on the opposite side. Till later, when I found out that information was a lie too.
It’s like those who still deny that Bush lied. I almost feel sorry for someone who is so incredibly blind. You wonder what their kids can get away with.
I agree with your points. I see both sides being incredibly blind, not just one side, and that is where most people have issues with me. The neoliberalists are just as blind as the neoconservalists, and just as likely to deny their blindness.
I used to be a liberal until the neoliberalists made the term as offensive as neoconservalists made the term conservative. I used to support the Democratic Party until it started doing the same things the Republicans were doing. That’s why I and a growing number of former Republicans and Democrats have turned independent.
Trolling and other silliness is why I have lurked for so many months. It is also why I take breaks from lurking since it gets tedious after a brief while.
Campaign Cash Giveaway! It’s like the Lottery, Democrats are throwing surplus money around like it grows on trees!
“Federal Election Commission records show Hsu donated $260,000 to Democratic Party groups and federal candidates since 2004. Though a top fundraiser for Clinton, he also donated to Obama’s Senate campaign in 2004 and to his political action committee. He also contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to state and municipal candidates.
After reports surfaced of his fugitive status, politicians at all levels scrambled to distance themselves. On Wednesday, Rhode Island Rep. Patrick Kennedy, who initially said he would keep the $6,200 from Hsu, announced that he would give the money to charity.
Kennedy had originally counted $6,600 in donations, but a review of federal campaign records showed it was actually $6,200.
Obama’s campaign said it would give to charity the $2,000 Hsu contributed to his 2004 Senate campaign and the $5,000 Hsu gave to his political action committee, Hopefund.
Hsu’s $43,700 in donations to the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee and $2,500 to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee also will go to charity, both groups said.
Clinton joined the other candidates, returning $23,000 in contributions that Hsu made to her presidential and senatorial campaigns and to her political action committee, HillPac. But his close association with her campaign put Clinton on the defensive.”
http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Sep05/0,4670,DemocraticFundraiser,00.html
“In any case, there should be an investigation. If this was Giuliani you better believe there would be a criminal investigation!
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 04:55 PM ”
Whether Hillary or Rudy, it seems like a waste of time and money to me.
Whether it’s Hillary or Rudy, they SHOULD BE investigated.
How many people just cough-up hundreds of thousands of dollars without talking to the candidate and making their views known?
Lotsa winkin and patting on the back going on in this Quid Pro Quo world.
Clinton’s developing a Culture of Corruption.
Remember Chinese businessman John Huang who laundered money that went to the Clinton-Gore 1996 presidential campaign?
It’s the Clinton way.
I see a pardon in Mr Hsu’s future the next time a Democrat is President….
“Clinton’s developing a Culture of Corruption.
Remember Chinese businessman John Huang who laundered money that went to the Clinton-Gore 1996 presidential campaign?It’s the Clinton way.
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 05:14 PM ”
I thought you said earlier it would be the same if it was Giuliani? Or is it just Clinton? Or the principal behind it?
Hillary/Obama endorsed by Castro!
What more could you ask for?!?
“Fidel Castro — who last week was rumored to have died — also stepped forward to tout Clinton’s electability, publishing a bizarre newspaper column predicting “an apparently unbeatable ticket” with “Hillary for president and Obama as her running mate.”
Fidel Castro — who last week was rumored to have died — also stepped forward to tout Clinton’s electability, publishing a bizarre newspaper column predicting “an apparently unbeatable ticket” with “Hillary for president and Obama as her running mate.”
I can hear Jack Nicholson yelling: “You Can’t HANDLE The Truth!”
9/11 DVD Delayed to Protect the Clintons?Thursday, September 06, 2007Playing Politics?
The writer of last year’s TV miniseries “The Path to 9/11″ says the release of the show’s DVD is being delayed in order to protect Bill Clinton’s legacy and Hillary Clinton’s candidacy.
The Los Angeles Times reports that Cyrus Nowrasteh says he was told by ABC that the DVD would be released this past January, then April, then this summer. Now there is no release date set.
The mini-series cast a critical eye on the Clinton administration’s anti-terror efforts prior to the attacks. It was a ratings success and garnered seven Emmy nominations.
Now even Hollywood liberals are upset with its apparent shelving. Oliver Stone calls it, “Censorship in the most blatant way… it’s an important work and needs to be seen.”
It’s not censorship. It’s preserving the integrity of the elections. hmmmm.
Yet somehow, it’s OK to release videos of a sitting President like:
Fahrenheit 9/11
Death of a President
What do you Democrats have to fear about “The Path to 9/11″ video?
Hillary/Obama endorsed by Castro!
Here’s the link:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295882,00.html
Yeah, I want our next Prez/VP to be endorsed by Communist Cuban Castro!
Corrected link:
http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/ny-ushill0829,0,3588450.story
Who cares about it anyway madmax?
Get a life you reichwing loser!
The Clinton/Hsu story was on the Eagle front page yesterday… the online version… And nobody saw it??? Hmmmmm
Max, are you still threatened by Cuba? Maybe we can show that Communist dictatorship who is boss by sending them a bunch of American flags that were made in China.
ROFL Doug!!!
Bush to Announce Troop Cut in Iraq
WASHINGTON — President Bush will tell the nation Thursday evening that he plans to reduce the American troop presence in Iraq by as many as 30,000 by next summer but will condition those and further cuts on continued progress, The Associated Press has learned.http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,296455,00.html
Wow, troop cut to back where it was before the “Surge” — Thats sort of like a thief who steals $100 from you, and then two days later says he wants to make you a gift of $100…. LOL
I say: Support our Troops!! BRING THEM HOME NOW!!
I want to know what evidence anyone has that Hillary should have known that Hsu’s contributions were questionable.
Max. Get off it. We don’t care what Castro thinks. Did you ever think maybe he said he supported her in order to hurt her?
I dont think there is any, PMom… The REAL criminal here is Hsu… not Clinton, or any of the other candidates to whom he gave funds..
And I still think OBL’s video message was designed to help BUSH more than the Democrats…
I think I”m just going to start saying nonsense just because I can.
Like…Republicans are murderers and thugs.
LOL I like that!!
Senator Clinton was only going to return 27000 until the FBI got involved,, then she decided to cough up 823000 more.
That’s the dishonesty.
However, there might be a ring of truth to that one PMom…
Actually Castro didn’t endorse anybody just who he thinks will win
She found out about the rest WHEN the FBI got involved, and promptly returned the rest to the donator… The only crime there is what Hsu did…
But, in this great country, even Hsu will get a fair trial… which is absolutely wonderful!! I Love This Country!!!
Clinton and fidel are ideological bedfellows so the endorsement don’t come as any shock to me.
180*
Actually, if Castor DID endorse Clinton/Obama, it would help their opponents, since most of the Cuban-Americans who vote would never vote for anybody endorsed by Castro…
First of all I believe humankind CAN change, look how we’ve changed in the last few hundred years, knowledge and understanding is the key. I believe that people can control their nature if they choose to and evolve (not literally) into a better person.To say that “this is the way it is, therefore this is the way it will always be” is being fatalistic and absurd. Of course we can change if we choose to. We’re not the kind of animals that are driven solely by instinct.Also, the exchange between Nathan and Chas. above only illustrates how stupid religion really is and how it only breeds conflict. It doesn’t matter what one’s religion is, NONE of it is based in reality. Maybe getting rid of religion is the first step towards man “evolution” in learning how to get along.
we could send Cuba all our recalled chinese made toys that would show those vile commies
Whats sad is Nathan and Chas are the same Religion and still cant get along let alone Jews vs Muslims Hindu vs Muslims Christian vs Jews Christians vs Muslim so on
Mary,
Interesting comments.
“To say that “this is the way it is, therefore this is the way it will always be” is being fatalistic and absurd.”
What about homosexuality?
Your argument yesterday was bascially the same argument you are calling absurd now.
Difference breeds conflict. Religion is only one factor in difference.
With or with out religion you are still going t believe different things and there will be conflict.
Either way, to think you could get rid of religion is being absurd.
The Clinton Donors
As of this writing, Norman Hsu, the latest in a long line of suspicious Clinton benefactors, awaits extradition to California, where he is wanted on bail jumping charges based on a 15 year old arrest warrant for charges of criminal financial dealings. Seems Mr Hsu has been a fugitive from justice for that long, apparently hiding in plain sight as a Democratic cash donor, most notably to Hillary Clinton. The Senator meanwhile, has announced that she is returning $850,000 to Hsu “in light of his legal problems”. Since Hsu allegedly donated funds to Hillary and other Democrats using “straw donors”, the money will officially have to be returned to numerous persons.
How could a major presidential candidate be receiving such large sums of money from a man who was a long-standing fugitive from justice? Well, being a fugitive never got in the way of people wishing to lay money on the Clintons. Just ask Marc Rich, the fugitive financier, whose ex-wife, the glamorous Denise Rich, dropped hundreds of thousands of dollars for the Clinton Library into Bill’s lap (along with who knows what else). As a reward, Clinton pardoned Rich in his last days in office even though he was a fugitive from the FBI and prosecutors never gave their assent to the pardon. In the old days, we used to call that bribery.
But I digress. The Hsu story brings back memories of other shady characters, mostly with connections in Asia, that generously handed big bucks off to Bill when he was president and running for re-election in 1996.
Remember Charlie Trie? He went from running a Chinese restaurant in Little Rock to being a big cash donor to Clinton, first for his re-election, then for his legal defense fund. According to a Washington Post editorial dated August 3, 1997, Trie once delivered $460,000 to fund officials broken into $1,000 separate contributions, some of which appeared on consecutively numbered money orders-under different names but in the same handwriting. That same article reported that, according to FBI testimony, from 1994-96, Trie received wire transfers in the sum of more than $900,000 from a certain Macau businessman by the name of Ng Lap Seng. Further, that these transfers appeared to correlate with similar transfers by Mr Trie to the DNC. Later, according to the article, the Clinton Adminstration acknowledged that Mr Ng had visited the White House 12 times during the relevant period.
Mr Trie also allegedly acted as a go-between for the Clintons and an agricultural outfit in Thailand. According to the Post article, two representatives of that company were scheduled to attend a White House coffee with the president two weeks subsequent, an event arranged by major Clinton contributor, Pauline Kanchanalak and DNC fund raiser, John Huang. The article further reported that some, if not all of Kanchanalak’s contributions to the DNC had to be returned due to questions about their source.
John Huang, originally from China and Taiwan, was at one time chairman of the Lippo Bank of Indonesia. After coming to the US, and working for the Worthen Bank in Little Rock, he made the acquaintance of Bill Clinton. With Clinton in the White House, Huang acted as a conduit between the president and the Lippo Group along with Indonesian financier, Moctar Riady and his son, James Riady. According to an article by Charles Smith in Worldnet Daily dated April 26, 2000, subsequent testimony before Senator Fred Thompson’s committee in 1998 revealed that Riady and the Lippo Group were joint ventures with China Resources, a trading and holding company owned by the Chinese government and used as an espionage front.
According to Smith’s article, Huang met Clinton on ten occasions at the White House between the dates of June 21 and June 27, 1994. Shortly after this, the Lippo group allegedly sent $100,000 to Clinton crony (and top Justice Department offical), Webster Hubbell, who himself was about to be indicted for financial crimes. Riady continued to funnel money to Clinton, once sending his gardener, Arief Wiriadinata, direct to Clinton in the White House with a gift of $400,000, according to Smith’s article).
Most troubling of all, Huang then received an appointment as Asst Secretary of Commerce along with a security clearance. In that position, Huang was able to obtain secret information on trade transactions with Indonesia, Japan, China, and South Korea. As a result of the Clinton-Huang-Riady traingle, the Chinese government had a hook into the White House. Remember the scandals during the Clinton Adminstration involving missile technology going to China while laundered Chinese money was coming into the Clinton campaign coffers?
Want another example of what Riady et al got in return for their financial support to Clinton? How about the US-backed Paitan coal-fired electrical power plant in East Java, Indonesia? The Paitan Plant, which is owned by the corrupt Suharto family (as in corrupt President Suharto), also connected to Riady, obtained a financial windfall in 1996 when Clinton issued an order that declared a 1.7 million acre region of Utah off-limits to coal mining, thus removing one of the only major low sulphur deposits in the world from competing with Paitan.
Then there was Johnny Chung, Clinton buddy and Democratic fund-raiser, who made almost50 visits to the Clinton White House, and on one occasion, gave Hillary’s Chief of Staff, Maggie Williams a check for the DNC in the amount of $50,000. The check was actually given in the White House (in violation of the law). Two days later, Chung dragged in a group of Chinese businessmen, who were present when President Clinton gave a radio address from the Oval Office. (See article by Pierre Thomas, CNN in All Politics dated March 5, 1998. According to Thomas, the DNC eventually returned $300,000 raised by Chung due to questions about their source.)
In March of 1998, Chung pled guilty to election law violations in connection with illegal fund-raising in the 1996 elections. In December 1998, he was sentenced to probation and community service in return for his plea. He also testified before Congress in May 1999 that the head of Chinese military intelligence, Gen. Ji Shengde had told him that he wanted to send a gift of $300,000 to Clinton through Chung, a charge denied by the Chinese Government.
Personal note: At the time of Chung’s plea deal, it struck me (as a DEA Agent who had been involved in countless plea deals in coordination with prosecutors) as odd why the Justice Department (under Janet Reno) did not include in the deal information and testimony from Chung that would have been damning against the very person (s) getting the money, namely the president and the DNC. Normal plea procedure for such a light sentence would normally include full cooperation by the defendant against his/her higher-ups in the conspiracy. Whatever statements Chung made failed to implicate those who got the money-possibly bribes.
So the recent news about Mr Hsu is not surprising. It is just the latest in a string of scandals that go back to the Clinton Adminstration. In spite of all the above dirt, the Reno Justice Department investigation never took it to the top nor tried to. It seems that the investigations focused on the middlemen who were funneling money to the president and not on the person (s) who were receiving the money in violation of the law. Nor did the investigations focus on what the donors were getting back in return. Was there a loud protest from the mainstream news media, coupled with demands to get to the bottom of it all? Hardly. Now that Mr Hsu has surfaced, let’s see how much the mainstream news media digs into this story. Will this story have the legs that the Abramoff scandal had? (Most of Abramoffs payees were Republicans). Or will the Hsu affair just quietly disappear? Since the media has a vested interest in Hillary’s election, no matter how corrupt she may be, I’m betting on the latter.
gary fousefousesquawk
Quote:
“I see the WhiteHouse like a subway: you have to put in coins to open the gates” Johnny Chung
I guess it is just a coinkydink that the chinese went from being decades behind us in terms of military technology to catching up during the clinton regime, huh?
180*
What about homosexuality, Nathan? People can choose to act on their feelings or not. I may have been born with a bad temper, but that doesn’t mean I have an excuse to punch people out when I get mad. What I’m TRYING to say is that we are not slaves to our nature..however violent, greedy, or jealous we may be.I might be heterosexual, but that doesn’t necessarily mean I’m sexually active, does it? I can’t help the fact that I was born being attracted to men, but it’s still MY choice whether or not I want to be sexual.
It’s no different with any other aspect of human nature.
PS, I really believe as we learn and understand more about the world and universe, religion will go by the wayside. The numbers are starting to dwindle now..as people become more educated and less superstitious, they reject religious beliefs.
Mary,
I am not sure what you base your numbers on.
If you look at the percentage of people who claim to be Christian or believe in God the are still quite high.
As much as it would please you for no one to believe in God, it is rather unrealistic to think so.
Supersitions have little to do with the major religions. Why you insist on trying to constantly demean peoples faith is beyond me.
I just see that religion has been a very destructive force in the world…just look at history. It’s true that people don’t embrace religion as much as they used to when they didn’t understand the world as we do now. I don’t see that as a negative thing..as people become more knowledgeable they have less need to believe in the supernatural. Do you honestly think we’d have the problems we do now if not for the religious fanatics in the Middle East? Isn’t it your belief that the Muslims want to convert the world to Islam, no matter what it takes?
I don’t hate religion, Nathan. In fact I enjoy the rituals of it. I went to my son’s wedding and he and his wife had a pagan ceremony..it was a really beautiful experience. My oldest son got married in June and his wedding was Hindu..again I loved the ritual and celebration. I respect other’s right to believe as they choose, but too often humans use religion as a means to condemn and/or destroy others, that’s when it becomes evil and distructive. Too often it’s used for that purpose. Just like the way you use your religion to justify your homophobia.
I’m waiting, Nathan…do you think we’d be in this mess if not for the jihadists and their fanatic religion?Why do you always run when someone puts YOU on the spot? You’re relentless when it comes to confronting others, but when the tables are turned you disappear.
Mary, that’s a general statement about religion causing wars. More often than not, it was religious leaders gone awry that caused the war.
Being of a faith does not equate itself to war-like behavior.
You need to stop relying on faulty platitudes to present an argument.
Nothing faulty about it….so answer my question.
Religion has often been used to rile up the hatred necessary to go to war. It takes a lot of hateful emotion to kill and maim and it turns out religion is what is usually used to provoke that kind of hatred.
I said “too often humans use religion as a means to condemn and/or destroy others, that’s when it becomes evil and distructive. Too often it’s used for that purpose”AND you said “that’s a general statement about religion causing wars. More often than not, it was religious leaders gone awry that caused the war.”My point exactly, Kansas.
“It takes a lot of hateful emotion to kill and maim and it turns out religion is what is usually used to provoke that kind of hatred.”Posted by: lindainks55
Are you saying soldiers have a lot of “hateful emotion”?
Well Kansas, answer my question, obviously Nathan ran off…if not for fanatical religious beliefs, would we be in the mess we’re in now?
No Hud, she means that they kill people out of love. Duh!
Dick Bott will be broadcasting his interview with coerced illegal post-viable abortion victim Michelle Armesto this week on Bott Radio Network and Sky Angel,Wednesday, September 12, 2007 at 2:00 p.m.Saturday, September 15, 2007:7:30 a.m. FM8:30 a.m. AM2:30 p.m. FM
5:00 p.m. AMSunday, September 16, 2007:6:00 a.m. FM7:30 a.m. AM3:00 p.m. FM6:00 p.m. AMSee radio pagehttp://www.bottradionetwork.com/ministryDetail.asp?ID=283
Nathan..Kansas…Will NO ONE answer my question!?!
Do you think anything is going to come of this, Parkay? Is Morrison going to investigate or not?
the shoe on the other foot — rubs, doesn’t it? lol
Stick around Mary. I haven’t seen Nathan run from an fight yet. I fear for you that he is getting the links to debunk what you have said. It’s out there. I could prove it also. 9/11 is a good indicator of reason people come back to their faith. Many came back and have stayed. They realize that their faith is sometimes the only thing they have in a world turned upside down.
This is what frosts me about this blog. I don’t care that you are atheistic, or that Tom is gay, or that Farmgrl is gay, or that Pmom is whatever she wants to be.
I do care that you and people like Chas make statements putting down our religion and faith and just expect us to set back and take it.
Whats with that?
According to the testimony, she went willingly on her own..she may have been pressured, but she wasn’t coerced. She was 18 years old, perfectly able to refuse to consent on her own.
I have a great deal of difficulty believing anything at all that comes out of Operation Rescue. In this day and age to think that they’d do a procedure like this without the appropriate signatures, would be ridiculous.
It’s a rather ambiguous question Mary.
“if not for fanatical religious beliefs, would we be in the mess we’re in now?”
I am assuming you mean Jihadists/Islamists and the War on Terror?
A quote from the Koran, “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).”
Most Muslims don’t take this literally as a physical fight, but one of spirit and ideology.
The Islamists/Jihadists take this literally and use this along with other Koran quotes, local fatwa’s and other declarations to declare Jihad on infidels.
Again, this is with radical Islamists and the leaders of those groups, not the whole faith of Islam.
Bin Laden, is of course is an example.
Just as David Koresh is not representative of Christian thinking. Most Christians do not arm themselves with machine guns and lock themselves inside a compound waiting for a confrontation to happen.
So, I disagree with the platitude that religion causes war and strife, it is the cultism of said religions that causes wars.
Sometimes the cultism is widespread as in the case of radical Islam.
Again, these are outlaw leaders who push an ideology that is apart from the mainstream of their faith.
Osama Bin Laden is considered an outlaw by his own country, Saudi Arabia.
The big problem we have with radical Islam is that it has fanatic followers and it turns nobodies into somebodies. It’s like a fast track to stardom.
Brainwashing starts at a young age in madrases in some countries. Indoctrination is mostly secular with reference to Koran scripture.
With that said, secular application of a religious faith, can not be considered in accordance to sacred doctrine, but a bastardization of it.
So, bottom line Mary, I disagree with your fanatical religious beliefs as the cause, but radicalism disguised under secular interpretation of sacred texts.
It is not religion, it is secular in its purpose, its design and its application.
Nothing religious about that at all.
The size and scope of Hsu’s contributions made him one of the party’s largest individual contributors. While he gave $23,000 to Clinton and $7,000 to Obama, he also gave $62,000 to New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer, $50,000 to New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo, and $50,000 to the New York State Democratic Party.”
(From Nathan’s link above at 4:14pm)
Posted by: Max | September 11, 2007 at 04:25 PM
Doesn’t any one but me wonder why a letter carrier in California making less that $45,000 a year is making huge donations to politicians on the east coast. Can we say money laundering here. Who is really pulling the strings? Where is the investigation into this? Was somebody trying to buy some elections?
Oh I forgot we are still ‘investigating’ if Bush has the right to fire federally appointed judges. Yeahhhh
She seems convinced that she was coerced, I’m interested in what she has to say..I’ll probably tune in.
Ksgrm, I just think too often religion is used as justification to condemn and destroy others. Do you agree or disagree with this? I’m not singling out the Christians, because it goes across the board…by the way, I’m not an atheist, I just don’t care for religion.WILL YOU ANSWER MY QUESTION? If not for religious fanatics, would we be in the mess we’re in now? That is exactly what I’m talking about…the use of religion to condemn, destroy, and to control others. Religion has been one of the most destructive, suppressive forces on the face of the earth…and that unfortunately
includes the Christian religion.
Well said Kansas.
Mary I also plan to tune in.
I have resisted posting today, since common sense has apparently taken a backseat to the spin doctors…..
However……………..
I have to agree with Mary Caruso regarding religion.
What is the difference between a Christian radical, a Muslim radical and a Jewish radical?
Nothing.
The Christian radical (Bush) had a huge military complex and the power of the American Treasury at his disposal, so he attacked a country that was of no threat to the US, had nothing to do with 9/11 and was relatively harmless.
The Muslim radical (bin Laden) ordered an attack on the US without reasonable provocation and killed thousands of innocent people.
The Jewish radical (Sharon) refused to negotiate in good faith with the Palestinians and ordered troops to destroy villages of innocent people.
What good does religion do for the average citizen of the world?
Nothing.
And the American Christians get themselves worked up over evolution and gay marriage……
What hypocrisy……………
Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the Earth.
Jesus said blessed are the peacemakers.
What would Jesus say today?
The same thing that He said to the moneychangers in the Temple…..
Screw you all…………….
“I disagree with the platitude that religion causes war and strife, it is the cultism of said religions that causes wars.”Cultism is in the eye of the beholder, Kansas. It’s STILL religion, no matter how you spin it.
For once I agree with you WS… well put.
Well said WSC!
Mary I don’t buy the argument that religous people are responsible for the war we are in.
I will agree that radical jihadists are the reason we are in this war. My muslim neighbors don’t agree with what the jihadists did but surprisingly because of the nature of the teachings they won’t speak out publically.
A fair argument would be for me to say that demos are against homosexuals because Fred Phelps is one of theirs.
The people involved make the choices. That doesn’t taint the movement. It just tells us that many will use any excuse to kill and maim others.
One of the arguments I hear on here alot is that BinLaden attacked us because we had troops in Saudi. We were there at their invitation. He wasn’t speaking for the entire country, just the small fringe group led by BinLaden
BTW, who WOULD Jesus bomb?
That has to be one of the most incoherent posts I’ve ever seen WSClark. It’s also a shame that Mary Caruso believes you.
Since neither of you can discuss the topic intelligently, but would rather play the blame Bush game,
I’ll go finish up my 3D work, so I can get some more money in the coffers.
“The Christian radical (Bush) had a huge military complex and the power of the American Treasury at his disposal, so he attacked a country that was of no threat to the US, had nothing to do with 9/11 and was relatively harmless.”
WS easy to say but much harder to prove. I won’t get into the ‘Bush lied, Soldiers died’ arguments because that one has been talked out.
What I will say is that some of the very finest minds in Washington voted to go to war and even before that said that Saddam had to be removed from power (Bill Clinton when prez). Bush happened to be in office when the time was right to do this.
The prez can’t make decisions based on poll numbers. This is becoming a serious problem with politicans as we see the waffling about their earlier votes. It makes the upcoming election much more important.
Radicalism, cultism, it’s STILL religion, ksgrm. They believe they’re driven by God just like you do. What’s the difference..sho are you to say your belief is right and theirs is wrong? Like I said, too many use religion to hurt others..not everyone, but many do. To say that anyone who has used religion as a weapon isn’t really religious is just your opinion, they would disagree with you just like you disagree with them. So who’s right?
Bin Laden is just as religious as anyone here on this blog, even more than most.
“Since neither of you can discuss the topic intelligently, but would rather play the blame Bush game”..since when did Bush become part of this discussion?
You’re the one who can’t argue intelligently, Kansas. When you can’t think of anything intelligent to say (which is quite often), then you resort to insults and run away. Coward.
“WS easy to say but much harder to prove.”
What is there to prove?
What did Iraq have to do with 9/11?
Nothing.
What threat was Iraq to the US?
None.
What did Iraq have to do with the War on Terror(ism?)
Nothing.
What threat was Iraq to her neighbors?
None.
What was Bush’ good reason for attacking Iraq?
None.
So, why did we attack Iraq?
No good reason.
Mary,
“I’m waiting, Nathan…do you think we’d be in this mess if not for the jihadists and their fanatic religion?”
Probably not. That doesn’t mean I blame ‘religion’ or think that all religion is bad.
I think you said it best when you said that PEOPLE use religion to do bad.
You are doing the typical liberal response to things like this… ban the tool not the act.
Religion is also a huge motivating factor for good in this world too.
There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.
People are evil and can be evil. Religion is just an excuse.
“Why do you always run when someone puts YOU on the spot?”
I don’t always run. I was actually doing something…
“What I will say is that some of the very finest minds in Washington voted to go to war and even before that said that Saddam had to be removed from power (Bill Clinton when prez). Bush happened to be in office when the time was right to do this.”
You’re kidding right? You can’t possibly believe what you just said.
Mary,
Also, for someone who routinely never finishes a gun control discussion, you are not one to be talking about me running from a discussion.
“There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.”
Name one.
So answer my question Nathan…
Mary,
I know wikipedia is not the best source in the world, but this is a good chart of religion in the world.
I know you would like to think that people are turning from religion, but it is hardly at the levels you seem to think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldwide_percentage_of_Adherents_by_Religion.png
Do you have a link to back that up Nathan? Show me some proof that I run away from ANY discussion. You ALWAYS quit when you’re cornered..always!And don’t try to change the subject.
Russian Communism… millions killed
Pol Pot… millions killed
Chinese Communism… millions killed
Mary,
Just about every gun discussion I have ever had with you, you never come back to answer my questions about your 5000 children killed numbers….
Mary,
I just answered your first question… which one are you demanding I answer now?
Sorry, there is no way people are as religious as they used to be..especially in this country and Europe. Granted, they still are in the Middle East, and look where it’s got them.
“Extremely scrupulous or conscientious: religious devotion to duty.”
The word religious can mean mant things. Above is the literal definition taken from Webster. I can religiously walk every day, I can eat an apple religiously every day, I can religiously listen to Al Franken everyday – that doesn’t mean I am a Christian.
My faith in Jesus Christ does that. By my work I shall be know so I show kindness, patience, hope, and especially love to those around me.
This would mean if I went around knocking down tall buildings and killing unborn babies I wouldn’t be showing what Christ has commanded me to.
Hope you can see the difference between religious and Christianity.
“There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.”
The Communists of China, the USSR and Thailand were hardly secular humanists.
But nice try, Nathan.
I have answered that question everytime you’ve asked it. In our country more than 5,000 children and 25,000 adults die each year by firearms… accidents, murders, and suicides. It’s in the statistics, you can look it up anywhere. Numbers don’t lie. Now back to the subject.Are religious beliefs at the core of our war with the jihadists or not?
Fine WS Clark,
Replace Secular humanism with the absence of religion…
Are religious beliefs at the core of our war with the jihadists or not?
Posted by: Mary Caruso | September 11, 2007 at 10:38 PM
You’ve already decided on your answer Mary, why bother with the question?
Mary,
“Are religious beliefs at the core of our war with the jihadists or not?”
Yes. Not the whole core, but yes they are there.
Mary, every time you post that number I ask you what constitutes a child and how many were gang related… you never answer.
You always throw that number around like 5000 poor innocent kids are killed by guns, when the reality is that many of those deaths are more than likely gang related and the age bracket is increased to call them kids.
“What I will say is that some of the very finest minds in Washington voted to go to war and even before that said that Saddam had to be removed from power (Bill Clinton when prez). Bush happened to be in office when the time was right to do this.”
You’re kidding right? You can’t possibly believe what you just said.
Posted by: Mary Caruso | September 11, 2007 at 10:24 PM
But there’s no reason to take George Bush’s or Tony Blair’s word on the WMD issue. That noted warmonger Bill Clinton gave a speech at the Pentagon in 1998 that could have as easily been given by Bush in 2002, and I think it’s worth reading some of that at length, especially given the sanctimoniousness of critics who claimed that 2003 was a “rush” to war:President Clinton:
“It is obvious that there is an attempt here, based on the whole history of this operation since 1991, to protect whatever remains of [Saddam's] capacity to produce weapons of mass destruction, the missiles to deliver them, and the feed stocks necessary to produce them. The UNSCOM inspectors believe that Iraq still has stockpiles of chemical and biological munitions, a small force of Scud-type missiles, and the capacity to restart quickly its production program and build many, many more weapons.”
Clinton then added:
“Now, let’s imagine the future. What if [Saddam] fails to comply, and we fail to act, or we take some ambiguous third route which gives him yet more opportunities to develop this program of weapons of mass destruction and continue to press for the release of the sanctions and continue to ignore the solemn commitments that he made? Well, he will conclude that the international community has lost its will. He will then conclude that he can go right on and do more to rebuild an arsenal of devastating destruction. And some day, some way, I guarantee you, he’ll use the arsenal. And I think every one of you who’s really worked on this for any length of time believes that, too. [emphasis added] If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow by the knowledge that they can act with impunity, even in the face of a clear message from the United Nations Security Council and clear evidence of a weapons of mass destruction program.”
Mary, yes I am very serious. This was your prez and most on the left will ever acknowledge that this conversation took place.
Bush was in a very bad place with the same intelligence that drove Clinton to make these statements.
WS you answered the easy questions (your own). Tell me this if Clinton believed why didn’t he make a hard decision to stop him. Why did he leave it to his successor to make the move? I know what your answer so save everyone time and just don’t answer.
Ksgrm, Christianity IS religion. And there are probably just as many Christian fanatics as Islamic fanatics. One can be and has been just as distructive as the other.Nathan, I nevr said that religion is ONLY distructive force on Earth, but it’s been one of the main ones.
I agree that there are also destructive secular movements also. The Chinese revolution was a big one.
“Replace Secular humanism with the absence of religion…”
That is a completely bullshit analogy, Nathan, so try again.
“Why did he leave it to his successor to make the move?”
In 1998, Saddam refused inspections. In 2002, he allowed inspections.
Your point was, KSGrm?
WS Clark,
Are you saying that Russian communism didn’t kill millions?
Are you saying that Chinese communism didn’t kill millions?
Are you saying Pol Pot didn’t kill millions?
How many millions did Hitler kill?
Nathna, I thought it would be obvious that when I talk about children, I mean everyone under the age of 18. And I don’t think it’s gangs that are responsible for the large numbers. Of all the people who have died because of gang activity so far this year in Wichita, how many were under the age of 18?
Your quote, Nathan.
“There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.”
So, what secular humanists movements killed millions?
And the Communists were NOT secular humanists.
My point is that evil people do evil in the world.
It doesn’t matter if it is about religion or religion is the excuse or not.
People will do evil things. People will kill people. With or without religion.
“How many millions did Hitler kill?”
Hitler and the Nazis were Christians.
Back up your quote, Nathan.
“There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.”
WS Clark,
I changed my statement. Do try to keep up with the conversation.
th the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs.”
Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998.
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.
“Hussein has … chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.”
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.”
President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998.
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.
“Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998.
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
“[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent wi”There is no doubt that . Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, Dec, 5, 2001.
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”
Sen. Carl Levin (d, MI), Sept. 19, 2002.
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.”
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seing and developing weapons of mass destruction.”
Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002.
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…”
Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002.
“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force — if necessary — to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.”Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002.
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years . We also should remember we have alway s underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
Sen. Jay Rockerfeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002,
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do.”
Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002.
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. “[W]ithout question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation. And now he has continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real …
Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003.
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.”
Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“I changed my statement. Do try to keep up with the conversation.”
So this was just more bullshit, right?
“There are just as many other secular humanist movements which have killed millions and cause evil.”
WS Clark,
Lets see just how Christian Hitler was…
The book Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler’s real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler’s Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity the liar…. We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer…. The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…. Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. …. When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself…. Pure Christianity– the Christianity of the catacombs– is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold .” (p 278)
http://answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html
ksgrm, I never voted for Clinton..he wasn’t “my prez”..it amazes me how you conservative Christians love to put people in predictable little boxes. BTW, you are WAY off in your analogy of Clinton vs Bush. If Clinton was a “war monger”, then what the hell is Bush?
The Christian radical (Bush) had a huge military complex and the power of the American Treasury at his disposal, so he attacked a country that was of no threat to the US, had nothing to do with 9/11 and was relatively harmless.Posted by: WSClark | September 11, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Clark you are so full of crap it must be difficult to go places with everyone running away from your strong smell. I would go into detail on your above statement, but it is so apparent that your dislike of Bush clouds your judgement beyond hope of repair.
So Hitler bastardized Christianity – wow!
Dobson, Haggard, Falwell, Graham, Swaggart, Phelps, Robertson, Wildmon and many others also bastardize Christianity.
What is your point?
Are you trying to claim that Hitler was a “secular humanist?”
Christ.
Ok, I’m calling it a night. I have to work in the AM and I need some sleep.Find out how many of those gang members who died this year were under 18, OK Nathan? I really want to know. I’m serious.And is it Ok for a young kid in a gang to die, Nathan? That doesn’t sound very Christian to me.
Wow Mary,
“…it amazes me how you conservative Christians love to put people in predictable little boxes.”
So says the lady with a stereotypical remark? LOL
“I would go into detail on your above statement,”
Go ahead, Nathan, er, Just or whomever you are.
Go into detail.
I would LOVE to hear it.
Loser.
In 1998, Saddam refused inspections. In 2002, he allowed inspections.
Your point was, KSGrm?
Posted by: WSClark | September 11, 2007 at 10:46 PM
WS those wouldn’t have been the same UN inspectors that benefited greatly from the Oil for Milk scandal that rocked the UN? Who can forget the infamous Hans Blix walking out the bank that held his millions of ill gotten gains. And then of course there was Kofi Annans own son who was involved. Would this make the UN inspectors good candidates for trust. Of course these same inspectors has been evicted before that as well as the US inspectors.
“In 1991, Iraq promised U.N. inspectors immediate and unrestricted access to verify Iraq’s commitment to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles. Iraq broke this promise, spending seven years deceiving, evading, and harassing U.N. inspectors before ceasing cooperation entirely. Just months after the 1991 cease-fire, the Security Council twice renewed its demand that the Iraqi regime cooperate fully with inspectors, condemning Iraq’s serious violations of its obligations. The Security Council again renewed that demand in 1994, and twice more in 1996, deploring Iraq’s clear violations of its obligations. The Security Council renewed its demand three more times in 1997, citing flagrant violations; and three more times in 1998, calling Iraq’s behavior totally unacceptable. And in 1999, the demand was renewed yet again.”
“While we now have the technical capability to send a U-2 plane placed at our disposal for aerial imagery and for surveillance during inspections and have informed Iraq that we planned to do so, Iraq has refused to guarantee its safety, unless a number of conditions are fulfilled. As these conditions went beyond what is stipulated in resolution 1441 (2002) and what was practiced by UNSCOM and Iraq in the past, we note that Iraq is not so far complying with our request. I hope this attitude will change.”
These quotes were taken from the UN hearings are very telling in that Iraq would only allow those inspections in areas they had santitized.
It was always thought that there were underground facilities where the stockpile was hidden.
WS instead of reading only the left leaning mainstream press, venture out and read the minutes of UN meetings. It might enlighten you.
WS Clark,
Many people, like you, try to claim Hitler was some Christian in these types of discussions to link Christianity to WWII and the Nazi’s.
It is fairly obvious to those who do even the littlest research on the subject that Hitler and the Nazi’s were a far cry from being Christians.
Just the facts mame…we have the time, explain yourself…and please quit with the personal insults or I won’t bother to read your post. I’ll read your rationale for what you just posted tomorrow…goodnight.
Actually Mary I was calling Clinton a coward. He saw the danger to our country and didn’t go a thing. He left it to a man who didn’t govern by polls.
Mary, you can’t cite a credible source for your phony numbers even if you searched the web for the next 24 hours. Your statement is completely FALSE.
**I have answered that question everytime you’ve asked it. In our country more than 5,000 children and 25,000 adults die each year by firearms… accidents, murders, and suicides. It’s in the statistics, you can look it up anywhere. Numbers don’t lie. Now back to the subject.Are religious beliefs at the core of our war with the jihadists or not?
Posted by: Mary Caruso | September 11, 2007 at 10:38 PM
Wow Mary,
“…it amazes me how you conservative Christians love to put people in predictable little boxes.”
So says the lady with a stereotypical remark? LOLNathan
That WAS my point, Nathan.
Here we go… that is the WS Clark we all know!
Calling me a loser?
Sigh…
What next?
Back to posting STFU to everything?
They key here Nathan is to make WSClark do some research and back up his tripe.
Which he has never done and never will.
Let WSClark prove by research each and every statement he makes.
Soon, he’ll be off on another curse word circus and ad hominem attack.
WSClark doesn’t know how to argue, he just knows how to make circular, dead horse beating reasoning.
He’ll pick one part and instead of staying on topic, beat it to death until he gets an answer he wants to hear, which is never.
There is no reasoning with WSClark, truse me on this Nathan.
He is argumentative and will take the contrary position on everything you write. WSClark is a profane, hopeless cause when it comes to discussion.
Mary are you part of a gang? I wasn’t posting to you, nor do I give a rat’s ass whether you read my posts or not.
Take your sorry ass to bed. That’s where you belong. Or maybe you better stay up and stick up for your blog buddies?
Last I heard this blog is for individuals to express their opinions. This isn’t the private sanctuary of a few homosexual liberals.
Mary,
“And is it Ok for a young kid in a gang to die, Nathan?”
Of course not. The point is that Gang members are killing themselves with illegally obtained guns.
Taking away my guns isn’t going to effect them.
“That doesn’t sound very Christian to me.”
Of course, you being the expert on Christianity, when you routinely bad mouth it.
Banana Clarkie?
dangles banana
Max, go to the CDC web site or the John Hopkins Center for Research web site. Statemaster US Statistics is another. I can’t pull up links and post them for some strange reason…that’s just three places where you can find the numbers. There are more if you look. Don’t be so quick to judge and call me a liar. It makes you look stupid. ‘nite.
Mary sorry I assumed you voted for Clinton. I hear him on this blog referred to as the greatest prez of all time, I forget all of the posters on the flip side didn’t vote for him.
And Mary I am showing that patience and kindness that Christ has asked us to do. No more assumptions about you.
“It was always thought that there were underground facilities where the stockpile was hidden.”
So, when did they find the WMD?
Never.
And…….
“Calling me a loser?”
And I posted……..
“Go ahead, Nathan, er, Just or whomever you are.”
So, was that YOUR post, Nathan, and if so, why didn’t you use your regular nic?
You know, you will really piss off Kansas is you post over multiple nics.
So it’s Christian to think it’s Ok for kids to die if they’re in gangs, Nathan? Since you’re the expert on Christianity, enlighten me, please.
Her numbers are pretty close max.
There are about:
10,000 gun homicides.
20,000 gun suicides.
less than 1,000 accidents.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_beliefs
Nothing But the Facts..I’m not gay, and I’m really not all that liberal, sorry to disappoint you. And I suppose you consider yourself a Christian, too?
Mary,
I don’t think it is ok for anyone to die, except in self defense or other justified actions.
The point was that you claim 5000 kids die by guns like they are innocent.
If it is gang members killing gang members how are guns bad?
They are using illegally obtained guns in the first place.
So how is taking my guns away from me going to stop them?
Yes Mary I do consider myself a Christian. Hope you won’t hold that against me. It is something I am not ashamed to admit.
“So how is taking my guns away from me going to stop them?”
No one wants to take your toys away, Nathan, so stop whining.
Or are you “Just” tonight or some other nic?
Gotta go. Early appointment and morning comes around regularly.
Sorry Nathan, you already anwered my question. It wasn’t my intention to turn this into a gun control discussion…but I know that the availablity of guns in this country is directly related to the high number of gun deaths.OK, now I AM done.
WS Clark,
You addressed your post to me and I responded to it.
I apologize for being so easily fooled.
I have never nic switched…
And yeah, people do want to take my toys away.
The Democrats routinely try to pass laws making my toys illegal.
The Christian radical (Bush) had a huge military complex and the power of the American Treasury at his disposal, so he attacked a country that was of no threat to the US, had nothing to do with 9/11 and was relatively harmless.Posted by: WSClark | September 11, 2007 at 10:05 PM
The above quote starts right out of a college sit-in of the Vietnam War era. Funny thing, the “military-industrial complex” was being put to use by democrats like JFK and LBJ.
The American Treasury at his disposal is just ignorance on the US Constitution and our form of government (sigh). And again, whatever relationship Clark is making, would by default apply to each and every POTUS in history.
And the attack on Iraq, for right or wrong, took place AFTER the US Congress, with the AYE votes of many, many democrats on board.
Shock and Awe is the result of the POTUS and Congress acting in concert to move American to war.
To attempt to isolate the cause and effect, and limit the scope of responsibility to one man, is the work of morans. To attempt to tie the Iraq War to the Christian Right, Moral Majority, or whatEVER Christian group, just demonstrates stupidity.
And Hitler may/may not have been a “practicing” Christian, but the leaders of Allied nations opposed to him cancel his actions out.
It’s like crying we went to war for oil. Just another stupid, rehearsed typed statement.
Today is September 11th, for a few more minutes. Be nice to hear something in rememberance of those Americans who died at the hands of crazed terrorists, instead of all this “I HATE BUSH” crap.
I still believe forums (fora?) such as this prove the point that anyone and everyone should have the right to own guns… except for those who really *REALLY* want them.
Nathan, “pretty close” is only good enough in certain rare cases. :)
Read it and weep Mary. I have looked at the numbers several times over the years and here they are:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_19.pdf
For 2004:
Murders by firearm: 11,250Murders by other means: 5,360Accidental deaths by firearms: 661
No where near the 5,000 children and 25,000 adults claimed by Mary.
What is that direct link Mary?
I am wondering what the ratio is.
There are over 80 million people who legally own over 200 million guns.
There are 30,000 deaths from guns.
So what is the link?
If people legally purchase 20 million more guns will deaths go up the same percentage?
We have a problem with violence in this country, not guns.
“Yes Mary I do consider myself a Christian. Hope you won’t hold that against me. It is something I am not ashamed to admit.”
Posted by: ksgrm | September 11, 2007 at 11:23 PM
OK ONE MORE DAMN POST….I was talking to “nothing but the facts”, are you posting under two nics ksgrm!?!Believe me, I don’t doubt your Christianity, Ksgrm. So who would Jesus bomb?
“I have never nic switched…”
So why did your father apologize to Tracy for your nic switching attacks on him and his father?
And, no the post was addressed to “Just” not you.
But you responded, so it was reasonable to assume that it was your post.
And it probably was, knowing your history.
Max,
You forgot Suicides. I know Mary. Calling her a liar is a bit much.
Misguided in her gun hatred? yeah.
Sigh…
*Sarcasm*
You got me!
I was nic switching…
*Sarcasm*
OR
I could have simply made a mistake in seeing the post addressed to me….
So who would Jesus bomb?
Posted by: Mary Caruso | September 11, 2007 at 11:29 PM
So Mary, how many patients have you overdosed? Or is that an unfair question that is inflammatory and requires proof on your part that you haven’t done such a thing?
WS Clark,
Here we go again with the “attacks” on Tracy.
I have the deepest sympathy for Tracy and his fathers situation.
Tracy was accusing anyone who didn’t support stem cell research as keeping his father from a cure.
Sorry, but I am not going to sit there and let Tracy use his father as a political beating stick against me.
Anything disparaging I said was only in response to that.
Nathan, the ratio is pretty high compared to countries with gun control. I used to have that but I can’t remember and I’m too tired to look it up again. Maybe tomorrow.Max..I’m talking about the DEATHS from firearms…not just homocides, but suicides and accidents, also.We have the highest rate of gun deaths of any industralized country.
what this administration isn’t telling the American people is that fighting terrorism involves more intell work and special forces working together. Its more of a surgical style of military work. Having ground forces in Iraq only increases the number of terrorists and our tensions with the middle east. Terrorist are guerrilla fighters, hit and run, cowardly style fighting, they have to be to have a chance at fighting the U.S., having large ground forces to fight terrorism is like trying to kill a fly with a bomb. This war in Iraq was never about terrorism, if you look at what we have done in Afghanistan, that was exactly what they did, put in special forces and recon teams, not large ground forces. Does anybody not realize this.
The only thing good that came out of Iraq was smashing the dissent of terrorist that traveled to Iraq to attack us, and home grown Iraqi terrorist, or insurgents if you want to call them. It basically worked like a bug zapper, attract the bad guys to Iraq, and kill them there. But that part is over, theres nothing we can do in Iraq, the only good we really did, was pave some Baghdad streets, plant some trees, and build some houses and a few businesses, and half the time, people involved in the rebuilding process were getting paid for sitting on their butts. You had guys working for Haliburton driving convoys of empty trucks to make it appear they were doing work, to get paid.
War is big business, people die, so people can make money. It boost our economy for the upper crust.
http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=176
Anybody can be involved in these types of business if they really wanted to. Especially into todays market, where the government outsources to private companies by granting large contracts. Some of these businesses the government hires are incompetent, or are trying to extend their selves beyond their means, and cut corners. The worst thing, is this administration unlike past administrations has endless ties to large corporations that are or were involved in the Iraq War, Iraq Occupation, or the Iraq Rebuilding process. We put the same Adminstration in Office two term in a row, and their main goals we’re to extend extend American influence (power), and make money in the process, while uniting Americans against terrorists, because the neo-cons believe our individual freedoms make us selfish and materialistic and from their teaching from a professor at an Illinois college, they wanted to give something to Americans, a goal, whether it be real or not, that would unite us, and make us proud to be Americans. Well it worked after 911, up until they decided we should invade Iraq. Oh, and this administration had numerous reports warning of a potential terrorist attack before September 11 2001, and they willingly ignored those reports, knowing it would be a good launch pad to invade Iraq, what they didn’t know, was how big the terrorist attack would be, and that the Pentagon would be hit, and they had a chance to at least and try and prevent some of it. The CIA gave Bush a fair warning, so did a few of our allies.
Mary,
We also have high numbers of violent crimes and serial killings too compared to other industrialized countries.
We have a problem with VIOLENCE not guns.
In 2001, there were 1,797 deaths (murders)and 182 deaths (accidental) by firearms among ‘children’ age 19 AND under.
In 2001, there were 246 deaths (murders) and 72 (accidental)by firearms among ‘children’ age 14 and under.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm
MARY, where did your 5,000 figure for child firearm deaths come from?
Oh, and where did your 25,000 figure come from for adult firearm deaths come from?
Kansas..I’d like to overdose you. Goodnight.
After that long post, I can see why you chose the nic WhiteElephant. It’s appropriate and fitting.
So, have you overdosed anyone Mary?
Max,
I do agree that the 5,000 figure is off. The anti-gun sites manipulate the age bracket to get that number.
Mary is a victim of simply believing what those sites say…
http://life.familyeducation.com/school-safety-month/violence/29712.html
Good Night; Good Luck; and God bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Well holy prophylactic Batman, Bath me in Elephant shit, you want unbiased, unadulterated information thats rarely found from the popular sources. Well here you go, http://www.corpwatch.org/section.php?id=176
“Anything disparaging I said was only in response to that.”
So why did your father apologize? After all, your father frequently is very critical of anyone that does not agree with him.
So, why the apology?
Maybe it was your nic switching attacks.
Just like your post as “Just the Facts ……”
And you misspelled “Ma’am.”
The misspelling was a dead giveaway.
Horst, you must foster some closet homosexual tendencies to be so homophobic. You must also be over 40, by the way you write. Tough life to live, hating people. Hate comes from fear, fear comes from ignorance, in this case, your ignorant to not knowing who you really are. I’m as straight shooter, but I’ve got no problems with gays, if your straight, did you have a choice to be straight or gay? No, I didn’t think so, what makes you think Gay people are evil who choose to be Gay. If you really think people have a choice to be straight or gay, then you must be bi-sexual.
“W clark need to leave the honerable”
That should be WSClark…. as in William Stephenson Clark.
And, Nathan, it is spelled “honorable.”
Try using Spell Check.
Number of firearm deaths 2001
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm
……….All/ Accident/ Suicide/ Murder/ UnknownAll ages
2001 – 29,573/ 802/ 16,869/ 11,671/ 231Children 19 and under
2001 – 2,937/ 182/ 928/ 1,797/ 30Children 14 and under
2001 – 414/ 72/ 90/ 246/ 6Now Mary and the gun banners want to count suicides as being caused by guns, just like they want to count murders as being caused by guns – Even though there was a person INTENTIONALLY holding the gun and pulling the trigger.
Say we count suicides and play Mary’s little game:
26,636 adults killed with a firearm.(including 15,941 SUICIDES)
2,937 ‘children 19 and under’ killed with a firearm. (including 928 SUICIDES)
Knowing that kids 15 and older should know better, let’s define kids as 14 and under:
29,159 adults killed with a firearm.(including 16,779 SUICIDES)
414 ‘children 14 and under’ killed with a firearm. (including 90 SUICIDES)
Now, the correct answer, to summarize all this stuff, is to say that there are roughly 15,000 gun deaths caused by someone killing someone else every year.
Of these 15,000, there are 324 kids.
If you really think a kid is 19 and under, you could say 15,000, and the ‘kids’ account for 2,000.
Either way, that is no where near the 5,000 kids and 25,000 adults claimed by Mary – though Mary you did try to include suicides.
You gun banners like to DOUBLE the drama of gun deaths by including suicides, which would likely occur anyway.
And you have no way to ban guns and get them off the streets anyway!
………All/ Accident/ Murder/ UnknownAll ages
2001 12,704/ 802/ 11,671/ 231
Children 19 and under
2001 2,009/ 182/ 1,797/ 30
Children 14 and under
2001 324/ 72/ 246/ 6
TOTAL 15,037
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/tables/frmdth.htm
Good night, y’all, Nathan, Max, Horst, Just, et al……
Who ever the Hell you are !!!!!!!!!
Wrong again Mary! I looked up the last numbers. See if you can prove your point.
# of guns in US 1900, 1950, Today.# of gun deaths in US 1900, 1950, Today.Rate of gun deaths in US 1900, 1950, Today.
(Or similar time periods, you decide!)
THE LIBS CAN TAKE OVER FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT.
I know that the availablity of guns in this country is directly related to the high number of gun deaths.OK, now I AM done.
Posted by: Mary Caruso | September 11, 2007 at 11:24 PM
ADD THESE NUMBERS>>>
Children 19 and Under…
2,937+182+928+1,797+30 = 5,874
I think Mary quoted 5,000
Every day in 1994, 16 children age 19 and under were killed with guns, and 64 were wounded in this country. National Center for Health and Statistics, 1996
Nearly 7,000 violent crimes are committed each year by juveniles using guns they found in their own homes.Senator Herb Kohl, sponsor of the safety-lock measure.
365 X 16 = 5,740
Good Night; Good Luck; and God Bless, whatever you conceive God to be!
Later y’all!!
Chas, you are adding the TOTAL into the TOTAL.
The TOTAL is 2937. Two Thousand Nine-Hundred and Thirty Seven ‘children’ 19 and younger were killed with firearms in 2001. The 2937 INCLUDES 928 SUICIDES.
You are either STUPID or you are LYING. Which is it?
And yes, Mary did say that there were 5,000.
The total, 5,874, was the total of the numbers that were posted upthread… I didnt make them up… As for the 5,740, that comes from the article quoted in my post above… 365 X 16…
365 X 16 is from National Center for Health Statistics… for 1994
You are lying again Chas.
Where’s your link?
My figures are from 2001 and the link is above.
YOUR numbers are LIES.
The total, 5,874, was the total of the numbers that were posted upthread… I didnt make them up… As for the 5,740, that comes from the article quoted in my post above… 365 X 16…
Posted by: Chas. | September 12, 2007 at 09:32 AM
** OK, The answer is you are Stupid.
Can you add?
All ——-2937Accident—-182Suicide—–928Murder—–1797Unknown——30
182+928+1797+30 = 2937