Gen. David Petraeus told a joint House committee today that, by and large, the surge has met its military objectives and that the security situation in Iraq is improving. And U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker said that though progress has been slow and the country is traumatized, a secure, democratic Iraq is still attainable.
Iraqis aren’t as optimistic. A new poll found that 65 to 70 percent of Iraqis say the surge has worsened rather than improved security, political stability and the pace of redevelopment, and that 79 percent oppose the presence of coalition forces (and 47 percent want U.S. and other coalition forces to leave Iraq immediately).
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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90 Comments
Now I’m worried. Why are so many Iraqis saying opposite of what the General is saying?
Iraqis are very perceptive in rejecting the “spin” { lies } now being bla bla bla-ed on American TV
Lawyers could Charlie Manson look good.
He jusy said: The Iraqi economy is performing “under its potenial.”
WOW, Who’d a thought?
“political_mom” –
It’s because so many Iraqis are living in the real world.
People are free to Google my previous posts, and that will prove that I’ve said for three our four years that regardless of when American troops leave Iraq, there’s gonna be a bloodbath. Today, next Thursday, three years from now, thirty years from now, there will be Saigon-ish helicopters hovering above the American Embassy and lots of people will die when we leave.
Deal with it.
Just how many taxpayer dollars and how many American lives is it worth to put off the inevitable?
As long as it isn’t the current Republic Party — the ones responsible for it — who will be held accountable, it makes no difference how many people will die nor how many billions of dollars will be spent. That’s the Republic Party policy. And that’s what we must reject.
Ultimately, eventually, we’re gonna have to let the people of the arificially-created-state-of-Iraq work out their future by themselves.
Iraqis live in Iraq. Patreus does not.
“Iraqis live in Iraq.”
With the exception of the hundreds of thousands who had the means to flee and are now refugees due to bush’s war. Don’t you think they would love the opportunity to come home? Don’t you think they look forward to the day when their country isn’t occupied by the U.S.?
Where are the comments from the tightie righties?
Over 4 million have fed Iraq so far, as we are making living conditions unlivable.
We are the biggest part of the problem and staying there only makes things worse.
Good point linda. I was mainly noting that Patreus has nothing at stake.
Ben,
He can completely screw the pooch, and like Bremmer and Tennet, Petreus will get some big flashy bling-bling medal from the President.
Who is that ignorant woman from Florida that keeps calling for the Dems. to distance themselves from a newspaper ad. they weren’t associated with?
I seem to recall a similar presentation by Colin Powell back in 2003. Facts were cooked then, numbers are cooked now.
All Bush wants is to run out the clock so he can dump the mess he’s created in someone else’s lap. Sad that General Petraeus is more interested in political enabling than in his oath to uphold the Constitution.
Protocol question: word is that Admiral Fallon, the head of the Joint Chiefs, is against the continuation of the Surge. Why isn’t he testifying? Petraeus is his subordinate.
(CF2K awaits, eagerly, the Wingnut minions who are poised to attack him just as they’ve attacked MoveOn today for for daring to question Petraeus’ veracity and loyalty to the Constitution).
Doesn’t anyone remember that the troop surge can’t be sustained past next spring without increasing the time in Iraq or decreasing the time between rotations? What do you think he was promising? We already knew the troop level had to be reduced to pre-surge levels. Now everyone acts like something new has been said.
Promises, promises, never anything but promises. None of them ever kept.
Where is that kool-aid? It gets harder every day to live in the real world!
lindainks55,
Real world, schmeel werld.
But the next six months will be critical! Honest…
linda …
“I’ll respect you in the morning”
“The check is in the mail”
“the surge is working”
The Surge reminds CF2K of No Child Left Behind’s insistence on high-stakes testing.
Neither one is intended to accomplish its stated purpose, whether that of increasing test scores or giving the Iraqi political process breathing room.
Rather, each one is intended as a stalking horse for some other, unstated policy goal: in the case of NCLB, it’s the effort to discredit public schools as a prelude to their privatization; and in the case of the Surge, it’s to run out the withdrawal clock until after Bush leaves office.
If this Administration had to honestly state its political goals, the game would be up. Much better to dissemble their true intentions to a credulous media, through the willing participation of enabling surrogates–like Petraeus.
Let the Democratic Spin machines begin! :)
Very proud of our military over there. What a fantastic group of men and women!
C’mon, Wingnuts! Why so quiet? Waiting for Rush Limbaugh to tell you how to spin the obvious failure of the Surge, and Petraeus’s obviously cherry-picked “numbers?”
Still no response?
Rush must be taking a break.
Cherry-picked numbers? :)
It’s what Congress asked for in their report. If anyone is cherry-picking numbers, it’s Congress who requested them.
It’s a report to Congress. Get it? Numbers that they asked for.
Again, all the whining just proves what was known all along.
That is, the Democratic Party is hoping and praying for failure in Iraq.
Now that it’s succeeding and even projected draw downs are given, the big WHINE commences.
Interesting isn’t it, how the left had their plan to criticize Patraeus well in advance of knowing what it was. Remember the lie about how the report was supposed to have been written by the administration?
Could it be that they are so politically invested in defeat, all good news must be spun bad?
Good to see the progress being made.
Good Giddling Gosh, can the General and the Ambassador speak in any denser, more impenetrable prose?
I’m listening to this and their answers are so long and windy that the first part I forgot, the middle part I lost track of, and the end part, I fell asleep.
This is speaking not to communicate but to NOT communicate.
There does seem to be some progress in Anbar province. Too bad about all the other provinces . . .
It was no secret as to what the report was going to contain. After all, the Bush White House had several weeks to put their ’spin’ on to the report.
All of this debate would be moot today if Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would have just been honest with the American people from day one about the Iraq War.
So let’s not blame the Democrats or those dreaded ‘lefties’ that are now being proven they were right from day one.
If Bush was an honest person, then 70% of the American people would not disapprove of his actions in Iraq and also on domestic issues.
outlander,
“Interesting,” isn’t it, that General Petraeus has been working as part of a Pentagon-located “War Room,” which, since June, “in advance of knowing what the result would be,” has been crafting the message that General Petraeus delivered today?
What “progress” would that be? Surely not on the benchmarks to which the Administration agreed. Seen the GAO report?
Could it be that the Administration is so politically invested in keeping troops Iraq that all evidence not supporting their position must be spun badly or ignored?
If there is progress in Iraq, why is the Iraqi Parliament, the US Embassy and the American military command all located within the walls of the heavily fortified Green Zone?
Why is the major market area of Baghdad sealed off and entry is only through American military check points?
Why does our military have to pay shopkeepers to open shops in the market?
After four and a half years, why should we need another six months before making a decision on military action?
Oh, and didn’t we hear the same “six months” story six months ago?
And a year ago?
And two years ago?
And three years ago?
And four years ago?
“We’re making progress in Iraq.”
Just how many times have we heard that?
Just how many times has that claim turned out to be wrong, wrong, wrong?
But believe us now.
*This* time, we’re not lying!
*This* time, we’re not wrong!
*This* time, it’s really “progress!”
Thanks for lying to me, Shrub. I gave you a break several times before but your lies have betrayed me.
General Betray-Us can testify to all sorts of “progress” but you, Shrub, have poisoned the well.
Even if every Shi’ite and Suni in Iraq suddenly showed up at at a Southern Baptist altar call, I’d have my doubts. Because my own government has lied and spinned and twisted the facts in hopes that George WMD Bush might be able to leave office and make his Iraq Fiasco somehow be the responsibility of whomever replaces him in the Oval Office.
Given the “response” by the Democrats before his report, and the asses here, the General should have just said”fk you, why tell you anything? You wouldn’t believe it anyway!!!!”
“fk you, why tell you anything? You wouldn’t believe it anyway!!!!”
Sorry, dude, about seventy percent of the American people think that the war is going badly and want to see it end.
“General Betray-US”.
Why slander an honorable man? No class.
Like several other posters, I think the bush plan is to “run down the clock” on this stupid war and dump the mess onto the next administration. Anything so Bush doesn’t have to take the blame.
Got news for ya, Repukes, it’s the Bush War and nothing will change that. He’ll always be remembered as the moron who got us into this mess.
Imagine that: outlander putting manners before morals.
Gen. Petraeus’s claims regarding civilian casualities going down, however, are highly suspect given the other extant counts, which show such counts trending UPWARDS.
AP and Iraq Body count both roughly produce the same statistical results, from methodologies that have been publicly explained. The methodology of Gen. Petraeus’ numbers, however, has not been thus publicly explained.
If Gen. Petraeus wants his numbers to be accepted, he needs to share them, complete, and their methodology, with the elected representatives who are being asked for their approval.
The latest from Michael Totten and the progress in Ramadi (Anbar Province). I’m convinced from reading this that there was little the surge had to do with this, rather it was the result of Al Qaida in Iraq being overreaching which caused the sheiks to “change sides”. I hope this represents real and permanent progress, but the question which remains in my mind is what will happen should AQI no longer represent any threat to the local tribes and their leadership. Will they (the tribes and leaders thereof) remain allied in the effort to form a nation, or will they become restive and go after the Shia government, which is allegedly feared by al Maliki? Yes, time will tell.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001514.html
Most likely, the Sunnies got tired of Al-Quida over reaching, know that our time is drawing down, needed the weaponry and training, money from the Iraq govt. and the Americans, and are just reacting in a logical way. I don’t see any watershed/ sea change in Anbar or anywhere else in Iraq. It’s business as usual.
Poll Alert! The Dems are gonna start spinning with polls!
Wait, nm…WSClark already did that. :)
Man, it’s dangerous in this topic room, all this arm flailing by the Dems!
:D
The Phantom,
Indeed. They watch CNN and know how unpopular the war is here. They know they can work Petraeus and Co. for special favors, armaments, and the like, since Petraeus desperately needs to be able to tout the political progress denied him by the Iraqi Parliament.
Petraeus gets played, the Sunnis get what they want, Bush gets to keep troops in Iraq for another six months, minimum, and everybody is happy–except, that is, for the combined populations of the United States and Iraq.
spin spin spin spin spin…
Kansas – rather than to simply mutter spin-spin-spin, why not do some good and go join the military yourself and go fight em over there.
To win the Iraq War, the US must first win the hearts of the Iraqis. Clearly, the Iraqis see us as the occupier of their homeland and we are the ones getting hurt.
Bush has shown arrogance when he should have showed moral leadership.
Tomorrow will be 6 years since 9/11 and Bush squandered all the goodwill the US had when 9/11 first happened. And yet we still have Bush supporters who are foolhardy to actually believe their own rhetoric.
Been there, done that maidmarion. I was in Gulf War I. And don’t use the you should go again lame statement like others on this blog have suggest – too old and too crippled, too ill.
“Wait, nm…WSClark already did that. :)”
Say what, Troll?
If you are reaching to make a point that I noted that seventy percent of the American public is now against the war, show me how that number is wrong.
After all, Bush is trying to “spread democracy” in Iraq. Should that principle apply to the US also?
Looks like the Minority is attempting to BE the majority… But 30% is a long way from a majority!! 70% of Americans think we need to support our troops… Bring Them Home!! What happens in Iraq will happen… We are not the world police force, or the world headquarters for social work…
spin spin spin spin…
Keep spinning Kansas. Maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the people there how wonderful things are. While you are in the area drom in on the millions of refugees in Iran, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon …
Keep spinning Kansas. Maybe you should go to Iraq and tell the people there how wonderful things are. While you are in the area drom in on the millions of refugees in Iran, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon …
Support Our Troops, Mr. Bush! Bring them Home!!
Support Our Troops, Mr. Bush. Bring them Home!!
Minor problem Ben, we have 20 million illegal aliens in our own country.
when did it increase from 12-13 million to 20 million?? The lower figure is what everybody has been saying….
Your asking for proof from Kansas, Chas?
Kansas don’ need no steenkin’ proof.
Proof is for liberals.
Team America World Police
Team America F#(K YEA
Ah, great movie, the epitome of the Bush administration and the media brainwashed folks.
I remember right after 911, all of the right wing was crying to nuke the middle east all to hell.
“70% of Americans think we need to support our troops… Bring Them Home!!”
Your dem leaders in Congress must disagree. Perhaps you should talk to them.
What is your solution to the situation in Iraq, Fleet, other than just criticizing others?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5664193427380925102&q=team+america+world+police&total=526&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2
“What is your solution to the situation in Iraq, Fleet, other than just criticizing others?”
Stay patient and don’t be a surrender simian.
“Stay patient”
We are past the four and a half year mark on patience – how much longer at $3 billion per week and 100 dead per month should we be patient?
As long as it takes. Tell all your surrender crap to your buddies in Congress. They are the ones failing you, not Bush.
“As long as it takes.”
So Fleet One, bankrupting the United States and killing a hundred American men and women a month is okay with you?
Your comment was obviously a joke. Now, what is your real answer?
Other than criticizing others, what is your solution for the situation in Iraq?
Fleettwood
“Other than criticizing others, what is your solution for the situation in Iraq?”
Let me guess foot tapping in a bathroom stall.
Patience. And foot tapping.
“Your comment was obviously a joke. Now, what is your real answer?”
In all of this has anyone defined what “success in Iran” will look like? Body counts or lack thereof? # of cities organized with a democratically elected mayor etc …. will the Ayatollahs / El Sadrs be allowed to govern if they are elected?
Heard some where during the testimony that they (The Ambassador) is requesting billions of additional funds for reconstruction and the like — I think it was 146 Billion ….
Patience.
“Patience.”
For how long, at the rate of $3.0 billion per week and 100 American dead per month?
Try giving an honest answer, Fleet, instead of trying to be a comedian.
You just don’t like my answer.
Your answer doesn’t address the questions
“For how long, at the rate of $3.0 billion per week and 100 American dead per month?”
Patience, for how long?
The rogue terrorist State of Israel is driving this conquest of the Middle East.
The step by step plan has been laid out and is being followed in the “The Project For the New American Century { PNAC }.
America is being duped by AIPAC into implementing the PNAC plan by hijacking American foreign policy, using the American military, congress and the White House in ways which the American People DO NOT APPROVE.
They cannot be reasoned with, but they must be stopped.
Those involved are treasonous.
By the looks of how things are going in Iraq, it doesn’t look like much of a conquest. Those international jewish conspirators better come up with another plan.
They do have an extension to their plan: To attack Iran using nuclear weapons.
In anticipation of expanding this conquest, Israel bombed the Army of Lebanon in their barracks while they slept and Israeli operatives are causing a civil war in Lebanon.
War is big business, fighting terrorism didn’t need to be a war, it needed to be a proactive effort from numerous countries, and a defensive effort on our home front. It does not justify calling it a War, then invading Iraq, when the Iraq invasion was clearly planned as far back as 1997. As someone noted in the opinion line, the irony that we treat our prisoners better than the homeless, is the laughable irony I see in a lot of things. I hope the PNAC peoples plans backfire ten fold in their face, before Bush leaves office.
Let the Democratic Spin machines begin! :)
Very proud of our military over there. What a fantastic group of men and women!
Posted by: Kansas
THIS IS HOW YOU ROLL !!
NOBODY SAID THEY DON’T SUPPORT THE TROOPS, STUPID.
SOME RESPECT THE VALUE OF THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE “THE TROOPS” YOU LIKE TO CELEBRATE SO LOUDLY WHILE YOU BEG TO KEEP THEM IN THW HELL THAT BUSHCO CREATED IN IRAQ TODAY.
YOU MUST BE PROUD TO DIVIDE OUR COUNTRY AND HATE YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS.
Caps… must be functionally illiterate.
There is no plan to leave Iraq…Bush got what he wanted, and that was to establish a military base in Iraq to intimidate Syria, Iran, and everyone else in the Middle east who hates us…plus making sure the oil keeps flowing. We’ll stay there just like we stayed in Germany and Korea. This has been the plan all along..mission accomplished.
wow how thoughtful.
bush is going to build… taa daa… a NEW base “close” to the iran iraq border so he can control and stop the flow of arms into iraq.
considering the uninterrupted flow of people and drugs across the u.s. mexico border does anyone doubt this latest big idea from boy george will be a fabulous success??
Caps… must be functionally illiterate.
Posted by: Kansas
i’ve noticed several spelling mistakes in your previous comments.
but, that’s ok as long as long as you continue to not think and cheap shot anyone with half brain who of course would be way ahead of you.
KNOW WHAT I MEAN SWEETY ??
Iraq has been conquered and now, as with Palestinians, begins the slow genocide.
The Iraqis are fighting for their lives { and being called every name in the book, from “terrorists” to “insurgents to “militants” to “al-Qaeda” anything except “Iraqis” }.
The same process is taking place in Lebanon, only running away behind schedule.
Israel bombed the infrastructure of Lebanon and then Bush went in behind with the money for rebuilding, and, of course, attempting to install a puppet government.
The Lebanese are resisting.
“The ABC/BBC/NHK poll, consisting of interviews that averaged nearly a half-hour in length, covered a wide range of attitudes and perceptions — personal experiences, views of the nation’s prospects, ratings of security and the surge, politics and reconstruction, the performance of the United States, the level of local violence, ethnic cleansing and more.”
If they questioned 50 people, that would take 25 hours. I doubt this “poll” can be taken seriously.
If they questioned 50 people, that would take 25 hours. I doubt this “poll” can be taken seriously.
Posted by: Kansas | September 10, 2007 at 11:48 PM
========================
That comment doesnt even make sense!! They use only one Poll Taker??? Sure… right… Good night, Kansas…
“If they questioned 50 people, that would take 25 hours. I doubt this “poll” can be taken seriously.”
This is such typical distortion:
50 people can be interviewed in 30 minutes using 50 interviewers.
This is such typical distortion:
You should talk. Nuking Iran. What sort of realism is that? Do you seriously think the rest of the world would allow that? Do you think Russia would not respond to a nuke attack, even if it was only Iran? Do you think the rest of OPEC and other oil producing countries would supply us with any more oil after that? Do you think the Moslems would not declare Jihad against us, and not just the current militants, but the whole of Islam?
You got that right, Ed!!
I doubt this “poll” can be taken seriously.
Posted by: Kansas | September 10, 2007 at 11:48 PM
====================
Kansas your post cant be taken very seriously…
Pollsters use MANY callers… If they used 500 callers, they could do 1,000 polls in an hour!!
So, they called 500 callers utilizing 250 man-hours of phone time.
It is still not representative of Iraq.
- People with phones- People with phones that work- People with no phones weren’t asked.
So, if they just called people in Baghdad in an affluent area, they got skewed results.
Polls are bad – ignore them.
Polls are bad – ignore them.
Posted by: Kansas | September 11, 2007 at 01:28 AM
========================
Because they didnt come up with the results YOU wanted??? ROFL!!Give it up, Kansas… They dont want us there in their nation!!
D3, which specializes in polling in difficult conditions, also has managed the field work for two ABC News polls (one with the BBC World Service) in Afghanistan.
In Iraq, D3/KARL works with an in-country, all-Iraqi staff of about 200 interviewers on call to 19 district offices scattered across the country. Interviewers are familiar with their local area, enabling them to navigate the geographical and administrative terrain alike. It comes in handy: As in previous surveys, several teams were detained during the field work for questioning about their work, either by government or militia forces, then were released.
The survey consisted of interviews (averaging 27 minutes long) of randomly selected adults at randomly selected homes via 457 individual sampling points, themselves randomly selected across the country. Questionnaires were prepared in Arabic and Kurdish (using the Sorani dialect); 69 percent of interviews were either directly observed by supervisors, back-checked by in-person visits or back-checked by phone. Of the 117 interviewers on this project, all but two had previous experience on similar surveys.
A “cooperation rate” refers to the number of randomly selected individuals who agree to participate in a survey; in the United States, cooperation of 40 percent is considered reasonable. In Iraq, despite its difficulties and sectarian tensions, 65 percent of randomly selected respondents agreed to cooperate.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3571540&page=2
This sounds like a pretty good survey to me.
Was that’s like that scientific survey that was done on the number of Iraqi civilian deaths, TDT?
You know, the one that said there were 600,000 Iraqi civilians killed since the start of the war.
When in actuality 10 percent of that number was the reality. Too many deaths, but at least it is accurate and not some surveyed b.s.
Kansas – I thought you raised a legitimate concern, how in the world would people go about polling citizens of Iraq? So I went to the links provided and found out how, and you can too if you follow the link I provided. Personally, this poll looks to me to be about as legitimate as any other poll, so if this poll isn’t saying what you want to hear, I’m sure there will be one tomorrow, or at least very soon, that says the exact opposite.
TDT,
Well thanks for doing the work, but in general, polling outside of consumer marketing is not very useful.
For instance.
(1) Do you like our brand of shoes?A. YesB. NoC. No OpinionD. I could care less
On the War in Iraq(1) Do you wish the Americans to leave Iraq.A. YesB. NoC. No OpinionD. I could care less.
The first question of course deals with marketing and how people’s opinion may reflect a very general like/dislike of the product you are marketing. More surveys can be done to find out what the customers like or don’t like about your product.
The second question begs another question.
“Do you want the Americans to stay in Iraq until the country is stabilized.”
This type of question would yield another type of result as it gives an objective that is positive. The other Iraq question is negative in its basic connotation and would always give skewed results because of it’s negative origin. i.e., lots of reasons that iraqi’s want Americans to leave Iraq.
I don’t like polls, because one word in a question can have connotation weight that can skew the answer as well as the results one expects to achieve.
I categorize most non-marketing polls in the “Are you still beating your wife?” type of category.
It doesn’t really have an answer and will usually tick off the respondent who will give any answer just to get rid of the pollster.