By all means, the United States should try to keep the Iranian regime from acquiring nukes. But if it had to, America could “live with” a nuclear Iran, John Abizaid, the recently retired commander of U.S. forces in the Middle East, said this week.
The Bush administration has called a nuclear Iran unacceptable and hinted at military action to prevent it. Abizaid’s clear-headed comments put the Iranian threat in much-needed perspective.
“Iran is not a suicide nation,” he said. “I mean, they may have some people in charge that don’t appear to be rational, but I doubt that the Iranians intend to attack us with a nuclear weapon.”
He’s surely right. Iran’s leaders know the United States arsenal could reduce their country to smoking rubble. Besides, it wouldn’t be the first time we’ve lived with a nuclear-armed enemy: the Soviet Union, China, even North Korea have nukes. Why draw a line in the sand with Iran?
If Iran eventually produces a nuclear bomb, that shouldn’t be an immediate case for war.
Then again, would Israel be willing to “live with” a nearby nuclear threat to its existence?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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51 Comments
Iran isn’t a particularly aggressive country. Perhaps America is afraid that after years of abusing Iran they may try to take revenge. Nah, probably they just want nukes so America stays out of their affairs.
Pakistan, India and Israel have their nukes, the world has not come to an end yet.It would only be fair besides you have let go, you can’t be mother to them all the time.
Doug that is exactly the reason that Bush&Co. do not want any country to have Nuclear weapons. In the Bush doctrine it hints to if any country appears to be growing in its ability to stand up to the United States.The U.S. will use force if need to make sure they can not interfere with our intent to have influence over any region of the world.
Life will go on. The mutual saber-rattling between Pakistan and India a few years back was unnerving, but in the end nothing happened.
Nuclear proliferation is a serious issue, of course. Let the IAEA do its job (unlike Hans Blix). Stop with the ‘axis of evil’ crap.
And maybe just abandon our own plans for building small ‘tactical’ nukes.
The real nuke threat will likely not come from a nation-state, but two guys in a truck. And a stupid-ass, phony “war on terrorism” will do nothing to prevent that, nor will trying to create a police state at home.
Actually I view nukes like I do guns. If 2 guys have guns pointed at each other, the chances of a conflict escalation between the 2 are actually less because both know that such a fight would be lethal to both of them. So somehow they find a way to live with each other. So will Iran, the USA and Israel.
Mukes don’t kill people, people kill people.
In a word and only one word, NO!
Echos of the cold wars days are all over. From some of the comments here, I guess we are ready for another arms race and the doctrine of mutually assured destruction.
It worked last time. Some nut case didn’t push the button. We didn’t blow up the world before the Soviet Union collapsed. This time, as a bonus we would have a terrorist supporting government able to hand off nuclear material. Great.
Think people.
“Think people. “Posted by: outlander | September 19, 2007 at 07:53 AM
EXACTLY !!! Think about how we, the superior Americans should continue to tell other countries how to live. What kind of government they should have. How to disperse their oil. What weapons they can or can not have.
One person. One person tell me what the hell America has to say about another country’s weapons. What gives the US the right to tell another nation what they can or can not have? What give us that right?
SolDevVB – you raise a valid point. I agree that the US has meddled into other countries for too long and some of those chickens have come home to roost.
But, it does not help the situation when you have religious leaders like Pat Robertson telling his followers that God told him that He wanted George W. Bush for president.
Now some may say ’so what’, Pat Robertson is just a senile old man but like it or not, Pat Robertson does have a large following and he is seen as a religious leader in the US.
So for a major religious leader to be so arrogant as to say God ordained GWB to be president is like the Muslims claiming that their Allah told them to kill their enemies. Statements like this make any war into a Holy War.
Bush began the drumbeat to go to war against Iran several years ago and he is still beating that drum today.
My question is ‘is Bush crazy and arrogant enough to actually invade Iran?’.
But whatever Bush does now, the country will have to live with for a long, long time.
“is like the Muslims claiming that their Allah told them to kill their enemies. Statements like this make any war into a Holy War.”
***********************************************
Iraq come to mind?
**********************************“Bush began the drumbeat to go to war against Iran several years ago and he is still beating that drum today.
My question is ‘is Bush crazy and arrogant enough to actually invade Iran?’.
But whatever Bush does now, the country will have to live with for a long, long time.”
********************************************
My personal prediction (posted on Open Thread a few days ago):
We will be on an irreversible path to war with Iran PRIOR to the ‘08 elections
Inside 10 years, the main news stories will be the “Arab-American War”. We will have bombings here weekly if not daily.
My thoughts – there will be a terrorist attack on US soil soon. It will be horrific – a travesty. My best bet is the kidnapping of school children. Kids where the boys are too young to fight back and the girls are old enough to be rapped. They will all be killed.
The American outrage will be unstoppable. Vigilantes will murder ANYONE even closely resembling a Muslim. Jihad IN America will result. The Muslims of the world will unite against America.
It will take 50-100 years to recover – AFTER the war is over – if we even still exist.
Sure, we can live with a nucleur Iran.
Let’s sell em some Nukes even to pay for Hillary care.
We will need to restore disaster drills to schools and work places though. Remember those H-Bomb attack drills from the 50’s and 60’s? We need to do that again.
But we can live with a nucleur Iran, or most of us can anyway.
“It will take 50-100 years to recover – AFTER the war is over – if we even still exist.”Posted by: SolDevVB
I think you are a little off here.
This will be the true test of evolution. Only those who evolve to glow in dark will survive. It may take a while.
Does not a sovereign state have a right to the ability to defend itself? Iran has had bitter experience of being attacked by a US client state not too long ago. Perhaps they fear that will happen again.
Sol: You are way off base here. It is not just the US, it is the international community that understands the dangers of nuclear proliferation. Not that anyone but the US and a few allies would do anything about it.
———-
From Wikipedia
The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, also Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT or NNPT) is an international treaty to limit the spread of nuclear weapons, opened for signature on July 1, 1968. There are currently 189 states party to the treaty, five of which have nuclear weapons: the United States, the United Kingdom, France, Russia, and the People’s Republic of China.
Only four nations are not signatories: India, Pakistan, Israel, and North Korea. India and Pakistan both possess and have openly tested nuclear bombs. Israel has had a policy of opacity regarding its own nuclear weapons program. North Korea ratified the treaty, violated it, and later withdrew.
———-
So Iran is a signatory, but is openly in the process of violating the treaty.
I’m not naive enough to think Iran isn’t trying to build warheads, but their insistence that they are using the uranium enrichment program to develop energy doesn’t seem so far fetched. Are we the only country that can use nuclear energy?
Well, the nuclear genie has been out of his bottle for some time now. We’d better get used to that fact. I’m just surprised that corporate America hasn’t opted for that form of competition.
“Israel has had a policy of opacity regarding its own nuclear weapons program.”
So, if Israel is your enemy might you be just a bit concerned?
Does not a sovereign state have a right to the ability to defend itself? Iran has had bitter experience of being attacked by a US client state not too long ago. Perhaps they fear that will happen again.
Posted by: Ben | September 19, 2007 at 09:32 AM
Since 1945 that has been the question.
And since National Defense (until Hillary) has been the #1 role of the US Government, we have selfishly and aggressively tried to control and monopolize nucleur power to ensure a strong national defense for the US. We have not used nucleur weapons against other countries since 1945, and we are trying to ensure that other countries do not use them against us or anyone else.
Is that wrong?
You trust the UN more then you do the US?
“You trust the UN more then you do the US?”
No, I do not. And apparently neither does Iran.
As for you claim “ensure that other countries do not use them against … anyone else.” HUH? When we support nuclear proliferation?
We helped hold Japan’s possible nuclear ambitions in check by placing them under our nuclear umbrella when China got nukes. Where do other countries look for protection when they live in a nuclearized region?
Max,”You trust the UN more then you do the US?”
I certainly don’t trust Bush, and now that he’s a lame duck with nothing to lose, I trust him even less! Given all his current problems, he might just decide to help Armageddon along, and he’s got the “nucular” weapons codes and lack of judgement to do it!
Israel just declared Gaza as an ‘enemy state’ so they can gut off their utilities, and supplies.
and don’t forget Phantom, continue their acts of war (blockade) in order to starve them.
Rice is over in Israel trying to stir-up a war against Iran, claiming the sactions against Iran need “teeth” in them.
Yesterday Israel shot and killed a 16 year-old boy for throwing rocks at soldiers { probably the ones who killed a family member the day before }.
Rice has not brought-up that killing { along with other daily killings } to the attention of the Zionists, preferring to do some grandstanding and giving phony lip-service to a Palestinian State.
If a police officer in the United States shot and killed a 16 year-old boy for throwing rocks { which is policy in Israel } there would be hell to pay.
Rice just looks the other way.
Let’s hope she is unsuccessful in starting another “war.”
Link
http://www.haaretz.com/
Ed
How do you propose Israel go about the task of stopping the rock throwing?Rocks are, in fact, LETHAL weapons.Especially rocks in sling-shots.
Ed, you are an apologist for radical Islam. In your twisted mind, you don’t care if Israel gets nuked off the map. In your twisted mind, the Moslem radicals can do no wrong and Israel is always “evil”.—–Ben
The leader of Iran has stated that he intends to destroy Israel.
Is this “defense” ??
Of course it isn’t.
Moreover, the radical Moslem Jihad ideology actually REWARDS suicidal behavior, therefore MAD or “Mutually Assured Destruction” is not a a useful strategy.
I would rather be alive than be “fair”.
No, Iran doesn’t get nukes.
I would rather be alive than be “fair”.Posted by: Econ101 | September 19, 2007 at 12:03 PM
Unqualified as it is (but honest, I believe, and complete enough that no further qualification is necessary to capture Econ101’s meaning), and extended so that it becomes a part of the GOP foreign policy goals, that statement explains why:1) The US lacks the moral weight necessary and sufficient to build nations at the point of a gun.2) The GOP is in such trouble these days. Namely, this is just another, equivalent version of Greenspan’s comment the other day, that the GOP sacrificed principle for power and achieved neither.
To make it really simple, this Econ101’s statement would make a famous American like Bill Hickock roll over in his grave. If he were alive, I believe in fact he’d even sneer at Econ101.
It’s not that you guys have no principles, it’s that you have the wrong principles — to govern, to lead.
Econ101
You’re nothing except a Zionist Shill and don’t tell me what I think, all you do is lie, make excuses for your “buddies”
A “rock” is a lethal weapon? In the hand of a 16 year-old boy? And the only way he could be restrained is to kill him?
Do you have any idea just how sick you and the crap that runs Israel really are?—–
Ed, the Palestinians are not loved by anyone in the Middle East. When they were looking for a country to settle in even Saudi Arabia rejected them.=====================
The GOP has policy and principles.
The left has nothing but squeaking wheels, with no plans, no realistic goals and no moral compass. The left think holding up a protest sign is going to feed someone and making shrill comments about “rights” are going to defend the borders or even the Constitution.
The Left is a party of single line platitudes and whistling in the dark, graveyard conspiracy theorists.
So, Econ, you believe that Iran should unilaterally surrender to US domination. Remember, we sponsored a vicious attack on Iran by our ally Saddam in the 80s.
Econ101
“The leader of Iran has stated that he intends to destroy Israel.”
Big lie: The translation from Farsi’ to English was wrong and you know it.
Where you said “wiped off the map” the actual translation was “Moved to a different location, which was followed-up with moving Israel back to Germany instead of stealing Palestinian Land. Those Palestinians have lived there for centuries and some of their Olive Trees you bulldozed were over a thousand years old.
You Zionists are barbaric.
I can’t believe, never mind, I guess I can believe that Econ101 gets attacked for standing for a strong defense for America.
The world (except for Japan, Germany, and Italy) didn’t see America as an enemy after August 1945.
If we wanted to conquer the world, we could have done that in 1946, but we didn’t.
If we wanted to conquer the MidEast, we could have done that in 1991 or 2003, but we didn’t.
Who in the world truly fears the US and why?
Max
Israel talked Bush into letting them hijack our foreign Policy and until our unholy alliance with the Zionist’s lust, the United States was civilized.
Lets see Max …
Iraqis who have seen their country invaded and destroyed.
Iranians who remember the US-sponsored invasion by Saddam.
Nicaraguans who remember the Contras.
Chileans who remember Pinochet.
I love my country and want a robust defense. However, these interventions have a bad habit of back-firing on us. Remember the Afghan “freedom fighters” Reagan hosted at the White House? Also known as the Taliban and alQuada?
Ed – even moving Israel back to Europe is simply not realistic today. Israel exists and will continue to do so. We should not even consider trying to change that reality.
“…our unholy alliance with the Zionist’s lust…”
Seig Heil! Pig F*cker
“…our unholy alliance with the Zionist’s lust…”
Seig Heil! Pig F*cker
Posted by: fleettwood | September 19, 2007 at 12:57 PM
Oh, God, Everytime you beat-up a Zionists here comes the Hitler-Card….tiresome…
Israel is destroying itself.
American Jews have generally lost interest with the Zionist State and prefer not to be associated with what they’re doing.
Israel is very concerned about falling from favor with American Jews who find the Zionist’s behaviour increasingly embarrassing.
Also Jews marrying non-Jews has the hardcore Zionists thinking that they are going to become non-existent.
Bush may not attack Iran, but cheney is freakin crazy enough to attack Iran.
That should seal the fate of anyone in the middle east supporting us for a long time.
“Iranians who remember the US-sponsored invasion by Saddam.”
And let’s not forget the CIA-sponsored overthrow of Iran’s democratically-elected president, and the reinstatement of the hated Shah to its original despotic power.
Technological advances will probably destroy Israel before anything else dose.
Those advances have already changed the equation somewhat.
The new hand-grenade with the parachute when throw at a tank floats above the Tank then explodes with a tremendous amour-piercing-force and made the Israelis change their minds about a military operation in Gaza.
Before, the Israelis could just hide safely inside their Tanks and “murder-away.”
Not anymore.
They’d lose every Tank they’d try to roll through the Gaza streets to that new hand-grenade made by the Russians.
A loose cannon such as Israel won’t last long with the new technologies coming along.
{ Atomic bombs are messy with radiation }.
Ed
The Palestinians are not liked by other Arabs.The Palestinians are treated like dogs by other Moslems.
Israel treats the Palestinians better than ANY Arab state.
Econ101
Why don’t you try to stop lying. Other Arabs countries have taken-in million of Arab refugees created by you barbarians Zionist with your unholy lust for greed.
You are the problem.
You refuse to act like Human Beings and keep trying to tell yourselves that you’re better than others, when the truth is you are the dregs of humanity.
You try to justify what you do with compounded lies.
That is not working, as the world sees you for what you are. You need to change to be accepted.
You said: “Israel treats the Palestinians better than ANY Arab state.”
That’s another lie.
You shoot Palestinians every single day using some cockamamie excuse and if you all had to stand before justice, the problem would be solved, being convicted and hanging from a rope.
There is no law which says that you can’t abide by International Law and the Geneva Conventions and common decency.
Try it.
See how much better it works.
Randy:
“Then again, would Israel be willing to “live with” a nearby nuclear threat to its existence?”
Iran, not only has to live with a nuclear threat right now, but one who is threatening to use its nuclear weapons and desperately trying to get Bush to attack Iran with our nuclear weapons.
And why is that necessary?
So Israel can continue to murder Arabs and steal their land with immunity from prosecution.
“So Israel can continue to murder Arabs and steal their land with immunity from prosecution.”
I’ve finally come around to your way of thinking. I don’t know what took me so long. The Jews are taking over the financial system, the Gem trade, the movie business. Lots of things. They killed our baby Jesus on top of all of that. And what’s up with those big noses? I’m with you, Brother!
Nonsense
Ed is an ignorant racist.
Ed also represents a very LARGE segment of the anti war movement.
MANY who are against the war on terror want Israel to be destroyed.
People like Ed don’t like it when the terrorists who want to kill all the Jews get killed.——
EdJordan kicked out the Palestinians.
Egypt kicked out the Palestinians.
Saudi Arabia kicked out the Palestinians.
Israel EMPLOYS Palestinians. There are Palestinians working for the Israeli government. There are Palestinians ELECTED to the Israeli government.
Palestine was NEVER, EVER an indepedent state. Their very name was given to them by the Romans.
The Palestinians, historically, were wandering nomads, with no real sense of geography or “state-hood.”
Historically, there have always been thousands of Jews, throughout history, in the territory known as “Palestine”.
Ed, you don’t know history.
Ed, the Palestinian leadership is among the most stupid, inept, corrupt and immoral leadership in the history of any people on Earth.
Palestinian leaders supported the Ottoman Turks, WW1 Germany, WW2 Germany(Hitler), the Soviet Union, and of course, they Palestinian leadership celebrated OBL and 9-11.
The Palestinian leadership keeps their own people in poverty, while stealing the international handouts and money the rest of the world gives (intended for the people, not the PLO and Hamas hacks who steal it.)
Israel is one of the most prosperous nations on Earth. The vast majority of that wealth they produce themselves.
You have posted crap here, before, about the foreign aid that goes to Israel.
First, the amount of foreign aid Israel receives is very small in relation to Israeli GDP.
Secondly, why havent the Palestinians been able to do ANYTHING productive with the $Billions the world sends to them?
(Answer: the radical Arab world just uses the Palestinians to stir up trouble with Israel. Palestinians are cheap cannon fodder for the other Jew-haters of the arab and Moslem world. The rest of the Moslem world treats Palestinians like dogs.)
You seemed to have your Zionist propaganda presented, though somewhat disjointed, but that is to be expected by such an ignorant slob and lackey of Zionism.
Gotta go….
Ed
Raised Catholic.
To the best of my knowledge, no Jewish ancestory whatsoever.
However, I have great respect for a Jewish Carpenter.
The problem is not the Jewish Religion. There is nothing wrong with the Jewish Religion.
The problem is a small group who exploit the Jewish Religion called Zionists. They are secular, meaning they don’t believe a word of it. They do, however, hide behind it and are rotten to the core as Human Beings { psychopathic and Sadistic and extremely cruel in nature }.
They also lust after power and seek world domination through the PNAC Plan.
A similar group using another “Ism” { a small collective dictatorship } ruled Russia for 80 years before the Russians were finally able to free themselves from its yoke.
These Zionists must be stopped.
They are not “right-minded” and are driven to be dominating and extremely destructive.
For some reason I’ve been unable to analyze, they gain a sense of power by lying.
For these Zionists, lying seems to overcome a deep sense of inferiority.
It’s interesting…
Some people, such as the Palestinians choose to live a simple life such as farming or manufacturing rudimentary implements and products.
Ask yourselves while sitting for hours in rush hour traffic if our progress is really progress.
Randy said: “Then again, would Israel be willing to “live with” a nearby nuclear threat to its existence?”
Israel will “live” with whatever we say that they will live with and we have the power to force them to live in peace with defined borders and a Palestinian State right next door.
If we wrest control of this situation and stop letting them run a murdering spree.
We have infested a fortune in Israel and still allow those troublemakers to call the shots.
Bad Idea.
The only power they have is the power we give them and if we choose for them to live in peace { whether they like or not, that is the way in will be }.
We cannot allow them to wreck our economy, as they are doing or bankrupt the United States, as they are doing, or keep us chasing fantasies { terrorism } as they are directing us to do.
Crazy-man Bush is on the brink of destroying this country and seriously crippling this world.
The Democrats need to get-off their ass and take away the money he is using to wreak all of the havoc.
Well?