Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Sept. 18, 2007 at 1:00 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
- Permalink
- Comments RSS
- Both comments and trackbacks are closed
34 Comments
The first letter to the editor in this morning’s Wichita EAGLE entitled “This isn’t the arena we voted to build,” by Ken Spear of Wichita says it right.
It ends with the paragraph, “I voted for the arena but I did not vote for what I am seeing now. There is no shame in walking away from a project with these kinds of overruns.”
Right on. Now if our business and political leaders would agree and publicly call for an end to this enormous waste of some $300,000,000.34 for this ugly dangerous steel and glass monstrosity ice hockey arena by the railroad tracks.
Then re-prioritize the spending of this tax money for real needs of Wichita.
Quote from WE article “Wichita to bowlers: We want you back”
“But Wichita faces some tough competition as it vies to re-capture the 2011 USBC Open Championship tournament it lost just a few months ago — and some of that competition has nearby casinos, a lure to about 98 percent of the bowlers, Mordini said.”
Did not the WE come out against casinos? I wonder how many times in the future we will see the same type of comment about casinos?
And the JWinks crowd said that a Casino will never bring in outsiders. I guess 80,000 out-of-town bowlers are wrong!
I hold JWink responsible for the lost of $100 million dollars to our economy. He’s so hell bent about a $137 million dollar arena, when he says nothing about the $290 million dollar face lift and paint job of Century II, done by bonds, when mature will cost the tax payers $930 million. JWink and Co says nothing.
He’s pissed off, because his cronies won’t profit off the arena, but they will off of Century II.
Oh yeah! Anybody living in Pratt County. On the next election for Sheriff. Kicked out the hold over Vernon Chinn. Elect somebody new.
and some of that competition has nearby casinos, a lure to about 98 percent of the bowlers, Mordini said.”
The usual 78% of all statistics are made up rule, and more so with such extremely high numbers. The article says some competition has nearby casinos, not all.
The casino was a bad idea as presented to the public. We were bitten in the butt by the arena vote so we voted down a similar situation in the casino. The city could have came out with designs and locations and costs for the casino before putting it to a vote, but they chose not to. They could have guaranteed a casino had they done that.
The usual 78% of all statistics are made up rule, and more so with such extremely high numbers.Posted by: Doubting Thomas
Does this mean the 78% rule is made up?
How much is the equation changed if the 98% is changed to 60%.
Of course, the bowlers can alway visit our new arena, if they can find parking.
Spin away. The fact is that they were coming, and then they changed their minds. For many reasons.
The lost customer is the hardest one to get back through the door. And where is that report about what happened and why?
The fact is that they were coming, and then they changed their minds. For many reasons.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
For many reasons and it appears the fault of many at the top. Makes one wonder just what the people running the place are doing on a daily basis.
“nearby” – 16 miles from downtown isn’t very far for most of us – especially those who have lived in cities.
“nearby” – 16 miles from downtown isn’t very far for most of us – Posted by: Ben
Very true. Assuming the bowlers who fly-in rent cars. It would be a heck of a cab fare.
Of course, I am sure the people in Sumner County will supply bus transportation to Sedgwick County’s cash.
Does this mean the 78% rule is made up?
How much is the equation changed if the 98% is changed to 60%.
Of course, the bowlers can alway visit our new arena, if they can find parking.
Posted by: Hud
The 78% number probably is made up, but I find it to be at least that high, and higher when some bozo makes a claim of 98%. The article said some of the competition has casinos nearby. How many of the other cities and how close are the casinos? It does not matter if the number is 98 or 60 if the number is made up. If he wants to cite a survey of bowlers that backs up his claim, then that would show his claim to be plausible. The bowlers main reason for coming to a city is for the tournament, hopefully to win it. Some will check out the city and enjoy whatever it has to offer. If casinos are so important to this tournament, why is it not usually held in Vegas, Atlantic City, or north or south Mississippi where there are a multitude of casinos?
On the parking issue, didnt you hear according to our local govt officials there are more than 30,000 parking spaces within walking distance. The officials left out that most of them are privately owned and many are used at night by businesses that are open at night. They conveniently underplayed how on a medium night at C2, there are barely enough parking spaces and how on a full night at C2, there are about 400 – 500 spaces too few.
On an unrelated note, is there better broadband than Cox or ATT in Wichita? I have tried both, and they both have too many issues. My current broadband goes down several times a day and has been out 3/4 of the time for the last two weeks. Contacting customer service is a hassle and a joke.
Let me try posting this again since the internet went down again.
“The bowlers main reason for coming to a city is for the tournament, hopefully to win it. Some will check out the city and enjoy whatever it has to offer.”Posted by: Doubting Thomas
Now sure why my relatives came but I did have the impression winning was that big of a focus.
Looked more like a social gathering to have fun.
Hud, the social aspect is an important part of bowling and probably one of the more important parts. I no longer bowl, but when I did, it was more for the social gathering than to win. Most bowlers know they probably wont win, but there is always a chance you will get lucky enough to do it. Tournaments were a blast and bowlers would frequently spend more time drinking at local bars than anything else. I knew I would never win a tournament because I am not that great a bowler even if the rest of my family is.
There are casinos in Oklahoma City. Has anyone driven across Oklahoma City lately? It is a big piece of real estate and takes quite a few miles to go from point A to point B.
As far as the bowlers are concerned, Wichita was never going to turn into Reno or Las Vegas. Them not coming to Wichita and not being able to gamble is a bunch of soggy chips.
Ben,
16 miles is too far me to a Casino because the Airport is closer. If I have $500 ready to spend in a Casino, its a plane ride to Vegas.
Those who want to gamble every day will trudge out to Sumner County wasting gas. What other “fun” will exist out there?
Casino project could have been altered, public voice better heard on a preferred location, but what the hell, like you say 16 miles is good for you, I prefer to stay in the Wichita city limits for the most part to do business. Stay within Sedgwick County at the minimum. We’re supposed to graciously help another County profit and nothing happens here?
Go back and read the Jacksonville articles, people there trusted politicians. You don’t here and that’s a huge basis why you voted No on the Casino and now hate the Arena idea. It’s $200 Million here, in comparison, $2.5 Billion in Jacksonville from sales tax!
“Casino project could have been altered, public voice better heard on a preferred location,”
Yes, it could have been. But it wasn’t. And that is how they turned 70% into 43%.
I am VERY familiar with Jacksonville. As you know, they don’t ignore the outlying areas to just focus on downtown. That is one of the differences between them (and other metropolitan areas) and what you want.
Ben,
The Casino vote was ruined by people “protecting downtown”. The vote was for a Casino in Sedgwick County. Why didn’t we want it in this County somewhere?
My preference was the downtown Casino next to Century II but we could have community discussed that more.
Too many believed the lie Century II was going to become a Casino. They let a few CEO’s make a lifestyle choice for them.
CEO’s that don’t trust their employees or citizens to behave in ways they don’t see fit.
Don’t we continually see the fraud in some of the best suited people? Much hypocrisy in their actions when they have “conservative” views.
But again, we failed ourselves and in Wichita some justify those failures with pride. City exists as it is with many civic flaws.
Other communities celebrate their Arena ideas and politically think they can handle when Casino project, Airport improvements and infrastructure considerings occur.
We don’t have the community confidence.
“Why didn’t we want it in this County somewhere?”
Many of us did. Unfortunately, the same people who gave us the 68% increase in Arena construction cost were behind much of the casino issue. As you have noted, we don’t trust them.
You will recall that I predicted the casino would fail and I listed the reasons.
Ben,
Wasn’t it clear your distrust in the County about the Arena with sales tax money is different than developers dollars where tax money couldn’t be used!
Guilt by association is what your saying. Where did the County commit supposed fraud in the Casino discussions?
Do we want a Casino in the County,
>Many of us did
But you voted No using misplaced distrust.
You don’t mind gambling voting Yea for the Racino.
Some people voted No because they hate expanded gambling like a Casino. Churches claimed Bingo but No to a Casino.
I’ll value those Bingo places I’ve never been to so much more.
What is a sadder image, addicted to Bingo parlors or sitting at a slot machine. Couldn’t the Casino created Bingo rooms and gave the same return? Negotiated with charity organizations too. Would Bingo elsewhere died?
Consider the Century II Casino location denial, the Library is affected. Still a homeless hangout and not enough space for all their stuff.
They want a new building soon! Somehow the City has to pay for it.
Pay for a homeless shelter as well.
I saw so much that could have been bought downtown, City selling the Hyatt, but No.
Developers money denied use downtown, this community only wants tax built structures.
The Arena is a tax built structure ,could be underfunded with too few seats.
Burned some developers with our NO attitude, why would any corporation invest in the Arena fast. Same NO people might not attend Arena events either.
Mrage: I voted against gambling casinos in Wichita because I understand the economics of casinos. Did you ever take a basic economics course in your education?
Because I have met you at one of the blogger meetups, I think you are sincere about your beliefs. But I also think you are misguided about what you really want to support your ideas.
In my opinion, both casinos and the proposed downtown white elephant ice hockey arena are counter-productive to your goals.
For the record, I also disagree with your goal … that is building an outdoor football stadium somewhere near downtown Wichita for lease to various users. In my opinion, football is a dying sport which will be replaced by soccer sometime in the near future. Sorry.
In the meantime, I suggest you sign up for a basic course in economics at a local college. You will learn that both gambling casinos and professional sports arenas financed by government have the same goal … THAT IS TO TAKE BIG MONEY AND TAXES OUT OF THE COMMUNITY AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE WITH THE LEAST EFFORT. NO NEW MONEY IS ULTIMATELY PUT INTO THE AREA.
JWink,
Watch the local news, aren’t channel 3, 10 and 12 promoting websites suggesting citizens follow high school football statistics and players across the state? Game videos and write ups?
That’s new media attempt to capture passion of high school football. More accessible to fans. Those channels hype the sports coverage as well on Friday nights.
Football is the biggest sport in America, soccer here has died professionally already. Women are trying to create a failed league again. Men sell out their stadiums in cities?
Local channels don’t show Soccer scores from professional games that happen.
Kids play soccer but more play football. Colleges economically live on football events or they try to.
WSU refuses to try again. But eventually development could bring college football back to WSU if its supported financially by the County and City governments and investors. College football for WSU needs a new stadium.
The City league needs another stadium and downtown is a legitimate location that is centrally located to three high schools. North, East and West.
259 will accept if they aren’t paying for the stadium and high school teams can play on the field without being charged!
Your misplaced passion helped send $300 Million to be spent outside this County. That is unforgivable because a lie was believed by too many people. They thought Century II was going to become a Casino when it wasn’t.
Your not smarter than other Counties who have approved Casino development. Your not smarter than the State government ready to protect the state ownership in Casino’s from lawsuits.
Your not smarter than sales tax legislation when it has a ending date. Your misplaced like of the Coliseum and hate the downtown Arena when with 15,000 seats for basketball its a much better event facility improvement than the terrible Coliseum. This City and Community needs a competitive Arena for events to happen here.
The Arena is in better location downtown, though parking challenges exist.
I did pretty well in economic classes all through. I still want a Masters in Economics in my life, sooner than later.
I’m still learning community spending trends here. Trying to understand why some facilities have failed. The Ice Rink was a failure when City overspent for the land it sits on.
I hope the Thunder sort of fail in the downtown Arena and willing go to Wink’s Arena in Park City eventually.
I support them trying to create a baseball team and improve Lawrence -Dumont.
“…THAT IS TO TAKE BIG MONEY AND TAXES OUT OF THE COMMUNITY AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE WITH THE LEAST EFFORT. NO NEW MONEY IS ULTIMATELY PUT INTO THE AREA.”Posted by: JWink
I agree this is the largest risk, not only with casinos but with all projects. But just which project, in the last few years, has our local government supported to bring in “new money”?
They always do the same thing, overpay for any project they approve. The result is the only money involved is from the taxpayers wallets.
Mrage: You and I agree on two points. That is, (1) improving our baseball situation in Wichita in some way to draw fans. (2) Moving the Thunder to Wink Hartman’s (no relation to me incidentally) new arena in Park City.
In fact, if the Thunder would have arranged to put an ice sheet at Wink Hartman’s arena … the only thin excuse for building the downtown arena would be eliminated.
Obviously this would save Sedgwick County taxpayers some $300,000,000.13 for the white elephant downtown arena.
AS SOMEONE SUGGESTED TO ME AT COFFEE OVER THE WEEKEND, WICHITA’S DOWNTOWN ARENA IS THE EQUIIVALENT OF ALASKA’S “BRIDGE TO NOWHERE.” COINCIDENTALLY BOTH ARE GOING TO COST TAXPAYERS SOME $300,000,000.
THE UNFORTUNATE THING FOR WICHITA … LOCAL TAXPAYERS ARE PAYING THE BILL RATHER THAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN THE ALASKA FIASCO.
SO LETS STOP THIS WICHITA “ARENA FOR NO REASON” PROJECT NOW, BEFORE REALLY BIG MONEY IS WASTED.
“15,000 seats for basketball”
What basketball? WSU ahs Koch. KState and KU have their homes in Manhatten and Lawrence.
What basketball, Mrage? Tell us.
JWink,
Never doubt football fans, but continue to dislike the Arena all you want.
I hate Arena football passionately!
Football is played on 100 yard fields and outside in the elements event most of the time. Some stadiums are domes and to me that’s not a good experience for every game.
Ben,
WSU could host four or six team early season tournaments or in December near Christmas possibilities.
KSU the same thing if they want try.
When those events occur, not every season at all. WSU and KSU could be in the same tourney with a chance to play or not.
I have no idea if KU feels 15,000 seats for basketball is enough for them.
What’s the TV package going to be offered. How does SMG market the Arena to our colleges.
KU could play one or two games in Wichita and not harm their home games in Lawrence schedule.
Some teams play more basketball games than others. Non conference schedule varies in number of games.
I feel 15,000 seats is too small especially when 18,000 seats is nearly attainable and corporations aren’t helping to increase those seats.
The Arena is harmed not bidding for the Big 12 basketball tournament. SMG does that for Tulsa, but not us.
It would have served this community well bidding for the Big 12 tournament because so many things have to improve in this city. It would force the City and County to keep trying civic improvements.
The MVC may want to try and move around their post season basketball tournament from St. Louis. Probably not enough seats for the MVC to consider our downtown Arena.
The Ford Center had forward thinkers when it was built in OKC. Look at the events its receiving today being farsighted in seats.
OKC rich guy bought the Seattle Sonics and could move them to OKC in a few years. They hosted the New Orleans Hornets well in attendance numbers when they lost their Arena in New Orleans because of Katrina.
The Ford Center with enough seating got events it never planned for. They will receive March Madness First and Second round games in 2010.
The Big 12 tourney is returning to OKC after being in Kansas City next season.
Having enough seats is the first requirement. How the community attends events in the Arena matters when hosting events.
WSU … KU … KSU …
could … could … could …
And I could win the Lottery too.
Mrage – face it – it ain’t gonna happen!
Try again!
Hey Mrage… As I recall, the bid has been received… The plans drawn up… Money allocated…
Its all in stone… What ever happened to you getting your corporate friends to increase the Arena size??? It has happened… Face it, YOU BLEW IT!
Arena = FailureCasino = FailureWaterwalk = 2 years behind = Failure
As opposed to:
Waterfront = Success (Capitalist Development)New Market Square = Success (Capitalist Development)and
Maybe we should have learned from the fall of the Soviet Union that Communism doesn’t work.
THE PROPOSED WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ARENA SHOULD BE HALTED RIGHT NOW UNTIL ALL FACTS CAN BE REVIEWED BY A BLUE RIBBON PANEL OF WICHITA RESIDENTS CONSIDERING THE FOLLOWING FACTORS:
1) Why did only one contractor bid on the project at an amount that seems exorbitant?
2) Will the proposed steel and glass fascade of the arena provide a safe environment for the public who would normally be expected to attend events there considering Kansas weather including hail and tornadoes.
3) Where will attendees go for safety in the event of a serious storm during its use?
4) Is the structure designed for uses other than ice hockey events in terms of loading docks, sound management, exits, PARKING, street ingress and egress, etc. In other words, can it actually be used for concerts, music events, etc.
5) Could construction of this arena structure be terminated now without wasting almost 1/2 a billion dollars of taxpayers money?
6) Should this arena be redesigned for re-bidding or be canceled altogether which is what 90% of the citizens of Sedgwick County now want after learning about the fiascos involved in the project.
7) Other factors which I don’t have time to list now.
Now here is a question… Could the 201 Million raised for the arena be spent on improving CII?
My bet is that it could!
It would be a much better use of the money!
It seems to me if the ice hockey requirement would disappear from the equation, the situation would be much simplified. Putting in ice sheets, air conditioning equipment to keep the ice frozen, buying and using Zambonies, and all the staffing that goes with it complicates the whole matter.
It would be very helpful if some private sports investors would come along and build about a 5,000 seat ice hockey arena somewhere, perhaps up next to Wink Hartman’s arena or in Old Town or even River Walk … for the THUNDER. I have to admit I DON’T enjoy the sport of ice hockey.
Then cancel the proposed $300,000,000 (county and city responsibilities) downtown white elephant arena.
Then as suggested by Tony above, reprioritize the $201,000,000 being raised by the sales tax to do a whole bunch of needed projects:
1) Remodel Century II and the adjacent convention center buildings.
2) Build a new downtown library on north side of Douglas, west of the Arkansas River.
3) Repair failing concrete bridges and viaducts in several Wichita locations and inspect all bridges including the total length of I-135 north-south flyover.
4) Redesign and modernize downtown Wichita.
5) Do a facelift of all the Main Streets of the smaller towns in Sedgwick County.
Appoint a 100 member Blue Ribbon Committee to coordinate this activity.
Tony – no, it could not be so used. The bast course of action at this point would be to get legislation to refund the money to the taxpayers. There are two ways to do it: (1) lower the sales tax rate until the amount is refunded or (2) do it via the K-40. Follow the precedent set by the IRS for the telephone tax refund.
Tony,
You blew it as a voter. Now whining about finding development money to fix Century II.
It was right there in the Yea Casino vote.
It’s questions and years before Century II finds the funds to completely upgrade the facility.
It’s tragically funny how people seemed shocked at the cost of upgrading Century II.
Kolb was tied into the Canadians plan pretty deep. He was first to mention Library needed a new building and there was the idea, Canadians were willing to purchase the Library.
Wasn’t it your dream to construct a better Convention center? The City could have had enough funds, selling the Hyatt to Canadians,
but No.
You call Mall construction civic success? That’s terrible!
JWink,
Talk to Wink and he can beg Thunder to become a tenant in his Park City facility.
There is no canceling the Arena.
Ben,
That won’t happen, getting a refund from the tax.
It’s more likely WSU, KSU plays games in the downtown Arena. I don’t know about KU. Maybe SMG can really sweeten a package to get KU here playing in a smaller Arena, than Allen Field House and the Sprint Center.
Why wouldn’t WSU want more gate receipts in the downtown Arena than in Koch? Some non conference teams WSU schedules could request to play them there.
Downtown Arena has more seats than KSU’s Bramlage Arena. But they have to consider the bus costs, team, staff and equipment traveling to Wichita.
To win the Lottery you must play and some do win their dreams. The odds are long but winners exist.
Your odds getting the sales tax refund don’t exist at all.
Mrage – I know they won’t refund the tax. I never said they would; in fact I have said repeatedly that they won’t.
As for you hallucinations about basketball – HA!
“Why wouldn’t WSU want more gate receipts in the downtown Arena than in Koch?” Because unless you are willing to pay the overhead costs for them they will eat up those gate receipts. Ask your accountant how that works.
“Some non conference teams WSU schedules could request to play them there.” WHO? WHY?
“Downtown Arena has more seats than KSU’s Bramlage Arena. But they have to consider the bus costs, team, staff and equipment traveling to Wichita.” DUH! That is just one reason it won’t happen.
As for your comment to Tony “You blea it as a voter” on your downtown casino: why should a non-Wichita Sedgwick County resident vote for downtown casino location? And why did YOU vote AGAINST that non-Wichita Sedgwick County resident by voting against a Racino in Sedgwick County?
City and County need to work together. You have made it clear that you favor screwing over non-Wichita Sedgwick County residents. That is the precise OPPOSITE of what you do.
Perhaps if City had worked with County residents BEFORE the casino vote they wouldn’t have lost. It really took some doing to turn 70% into 43%. You should be asking yourself why your side LOST the casino vote. You might learn something. Remember, I correctly predicted it would fail while you were so certain it would pass.
Ben,
Why don’t you ask Schaus if its possible WSU could play games in the Arena. He may not be able to answer so far out before the Arena is built. Future non conference opponents coming to Wichita aren’t set. Four or five seasons from now.
What exactly would be the overhead costs you fear that will happen.
WSU won’t pay many employees to play in the downtown Arena on those game nights. Arena will have their own staff and equipment.
KSU could afford to travel on buses to Wichita, but the costs aren’t prohibitive to do it.
It’s likely to happen if KSU wants to. SMG will probably contact them for that to occur on occasion.
SMG pays them to come here and tries to market the game on cable tv somewhere.
Your Tony points, we weren’t voting to place a Casino downtown. It was one of the ideas for a Casino in this County.
You No voters didn’t get this County a chance to discuss a good location and what benefits those site choices could bring.
At least I’ve been to the dog track and grew tired of it. I didn’t the location. I thought Ruffin would be better served trying to get into the Casino business here.
He stumbled not really believing in the state owned Casinos and began talking about a downtown Casino on his property were late.
You screwed this County out a development our politicans could have handled. $300 Million or more spent in this County would go to many different companies and people.
It didn’t take much doing to lie about Century II becoming a Casino. Some called for prayers so that wouldn’t happen.
I have no idea what effect CEO’s hating the Casino idea had on their employees voting.
The City politicians who tried to protect downtown, weren’t strong on having a Casino in this County either.
We had a new City Council formed at a bad time close to the Casino vote. Brand new Mayor trying to publicly talk about a Casino.
The Chamber vote was split among the members, but their Board decision alone said No. Look who is on the Chamber Board and people who could influence them.
CEO’s used the Chamber vote bolstering their No argument.
The Eagle had their bias but did observe the lie being spread about Century II probably helped increase the No vote.
Your predictions only showed how close minded this community can be. How overblown suspicions and mistrust control some people around here.
The Racino was a worse idea in a bad location. Bob Knights Casino out there wouldn’t have been a great choice either.
Mrage – you illustrate the problem. If you thought the casino would be out in the County you would vote NO. As I said, that city-vs-county split makes us very different from places like Jacksonville.
“Why don’t you ask Schaus if its possible WSU could play games in the Arena” YOU are the one touting the WSU idea, it is YOUR job to do that.
“You No voters didn’t get this County a chance to discuss a good location and what benefits those site choices could bring.” FALSE STATEMENT. They had ample time to do so; they chose not to. That is why it lost.
“WSU won’t pay many employees to play in the downtown Arena on those game nights. Arena will have their own staff and equipment.” SOMEBODY WILL HAVE TO PAY THEM. ARE YOU OFFERING TO DO SO?
“The Racino was a worse idea in a bad location. Bob Knights Casino out there wouldn’t have been a great choice either.” MANY OF US DISAGREE. THAT IS WHY YOU LOST.
“How overblown suspicions and mistrust control some people around here.” OVERBLOWN? REMEMBER, THESE ARE THE GUYS WHO MISREPRESENTED THE COST OF THEIR ARENA. They need to earn my trust now.
The anti-casino group did not defeat the casino. The pro-casino crowd did. They managed to turn 70% into 43%; that took a lot of doing.