The pay gap between American CEOs and workers is wider this Labor Day, according to an annual report that found corporate CEOs “collected as much money from one day on the job as average workers made over the entire year.”
The average CEO makes $10.8 million in salary and other benefits, compared with an average $30,000 salary for workers.
The new federal minimum wage of $5.85 an hour that just went into effect is still 7 percent less in real dollars than the minimum wage 10 years ago, according to the study by the Institute for Policy Studies. But executive salaries and compensation have soared by 45 percent over the same period.
Corporate boards still have not reined in runaway executive pay, raising issues of economic fairness that will surely be themes in the 2008 presidential campaign.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- okobserver on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
- outlander on Open thread 11/23
- Chas on Open thread 11/23
244 Comments
We are increasing the spread between the rich and poor. The Great Middle Class which made our country great is in danger of collapse.
We don’t have to go very far to see this up close and recent in Wichita. So, on this Labor Day, we ought to be happy for those who’ve lined their pockets on the backs of the many who built up the value over the years. Enjoy your day, you guys and gals.
Who said that Wichita was backward? We can provide the analytic basis for a whole lot, essentially being an ideal. Who needs Peoria?
The answer to this is quite simple and that is that we need MORE trade unionization and MORE powerful unions. Did you know that most union represented employees get better pay, better benefits and better treatment at work? With union membership on the decline, the wage gap will only get bigger as the robber baron class takes more and more from the working class. If you don’t think so, look at the food processing plants. A few decades ago, a meat cutter job at a beef plant was a good UNION job with good benefits. Now it is a $9 an hour job with few benefits which is why the processing plants are filled with workers from Mexico- most of whom probably snuck into the country.
“We are increasing the spread between the rich and poor. The Great Middle Class which made our country great is in danger of collapse.”"”
It is not in danger of it. It IS falling! The only thing holding the middle class up right now is easy and cheap credit- which as we see is not gonna be around forever. One day we will wake up in a country where there will be 3 classes of people: The rich, govrnment employees and everybody else. The rich will be even richer, the government employees will be OK because that is one area where unionization is expanding so they will have pensions and good health plans. The 75% of the people will be working for scraps, holding down 2 or more jobs and STILL get no healthcare, not be able to afford even a modest home, not be able to send a kid to college or take a decent vacation. Yet half that “fool class” will still vote Republican for the very people that put them in the mess they are in.
“Did you know that most union represented employees get better pay, better benefits and better treatment at work?”Posted by: Kev
Yeah, Right. Double the wages of the Union Worker and now it takes two days for the CEO at the top to make the workers yearly wage.
I do not think that cured the problem.
A CEO’s pay is determined in large part by the market value of his/her skills. If Home Depot would not have paid Nardelli over 200 million to come a run their company, somebody else would have. Nardelli is often pointed at a case in point for out of control executive pay, but people seem to avoid looking at what good he brought to home depot: He Revamped the HR processes resulting in higher productivity and happier workers, Decentralized product purchasing -taking advantage of ingored economies of scale and creating greater uniformity between stores, He increased customer satisfaction, AND he doubled their volume over his tenure, from around 40 BILLION to around 80 BILLION. I know if somebody brought my business an extra 40 billion bucks a year, and maintained a decent profit margin, I would gladly give them 200 million for their work!
Unions are a tool of the past. They have served their purpose – protecting workers lives and livelihood during some hard times in our country. Their bullish negotioating tactics, and outdated views of politics and economics have no place in the modern day society.
Today, unions are only concerned with making a higher wage for doing less work! They tout their training and increased productivity… its all a smokescreen. Many non-union workers can work circles around the union folks, especially while they are sitting on their duffs taking a break.
Corporations are the enemy.. how dare they make any money! The nerve they have only paying those poor union workers $20 (or More!) an hour to put Part A with Part B. What most line workers don’t realize that most corporations profit margins are less than 5% after taxes! I hope these $20 dollar an hour employees realize that they have to add $400 dollars an hour value to the company for it to even make this paltry 5%… if they aren’t then the employee is really just costing the company.
The bottom line is that if more of the labor force unionizes then companies will be forced to outsource more of their product. It is all economics, businesses must now compete in a global economy…and that means that the labor rates have to as well. Unions seem to continually harp on companies that outsource a portion of their product, but what they are too ingnorant to see is that they are cause of it!
“”"A CEO’s pay is determined in large part by the market value of his/her skills. If Home Depot would not have paid Nardelli over 200 million to come a run their company, somebody else would have. Nardelli is often pointed at a case in point for out of control executive pay, but people seem to avoid looking at what good he brought to home depot: He Revamped the HR processes resulting in higher productivity and happier workers, Decentralized product purchasing -taking advantage of ingored economies of scale and creating greater uniformity between stores, He increased customer satisfaction, AND he doubled their volume over his tenure, from around 40 BILLION to around 80 BILLION. I know if somebody brought my business an extra 40 billion bucks a year, and maintained a decent profit margin, I would gladly give them 200 million for their work!”"”"
And I can find 50 other people that can do the same thing for a lot less than $200 million. And where you got the idea that customer service was better at Home Depot under him is beyond me. Customer service at Home Depot SUCKS for the most part. And I might point out that rival LOWES’ stock performed BETTER than Home Depot and their CEO makes about 1/5th of what Nardelli made. Now Nardelli has moved on the Chrysler where he has to deal with unions. We will see where that goes.
Let’s not forget why Kansas has such a terrific economy–it’s because of how highly workers here are valued.
For instance, the new federal minimum wage is $5.85, which went into effect 5 weeks ago.
Our state’s left-flanking neighbor Colorado’s state-legislated minimum wage is $6.85. Missouri, on our right has a $6.50 state minimum. Iowa’s state minimum is $6.20, scheduled to rise to $7.25 in January. Nebraska and Oklahoma follow the federal wage.
Actually 30 states have above-federal minimum wages.
But Kansas’s minimum wage is $2.65–less than half the federal standard. You can argue that this really only applies to tip-receiving workers, but in Colorado and Missouri, waiters and waitresses get $6.85 and $6.20, and in Colorado’s case at least, they get to keep ALL THEIR TIPS TOO.
But there is real value to minimizing worker compensation. It helps to motivate “undesirables” to move out. You know, people who think they are worth more than they are paid here, and by golly, when they leave, non-Kansas employers show by paying them more that they agree with these workers.
The Kansas ultra-low-wage perspective is smart. It has already rid Liberal of most of its undesirable German-and Polish-American element, so that now Latino immigrants are the town’s most populous group. Can you say LEE bey rahl?
http://www.kansas.com/news/story/163871.html
Wichita won’t match Liberal’s remarkable achievement for awhile, but fast-forward 30 years, and the River Festival will probably be taking a back seat to the Cinco de Mayo celebration. “Okay, class, repeat after me, WEE shee tah.”
“”"”Unions are a tool of the past. They have served their purpose – protecting workers lives and livelihood during some hard times in our country. Their bullish negotioating tactics, and outdated views of politics and economics have no place in the modern day society.”"”
If unions are ever needed it more right now than ever before.
“”"Today, unions are only concerned with making a higher wage for doing less work! They tout their training and increased productivity… its all a smokescreen. Many non-union workers can work circles around the union folks, especially while they are sitting on their duffs taking a break. “”"
Another lie. Union contracts with employers specify breaks. Usually 2 15 minute breaks a day that are paid and an hour lunch that is not paid. And the non union people take breaks too and, in fact, probably loaf more on the job because their breaks are not specified. If the union man’s contract says “you shall receive a break of 15 minutes at 2PM” and the boss sees the union man loafing at 2:30 PM, the boss rightfully can- and will- get on his ass. But since the non union man’s break time is not specified, he goes out and smokes cigarettes several times a day and it usually adds up to more time than the union man takes. I suppose you think workers should have no breaks during the day? And the union man is well trained in his craft and has spent 5 years in most cases before reaching Journeyman status (top of wage scale) while the non union man has had no formal training and just picked up the bad habits of whoever his OTJ trainer was.
“”"Corporations are the enemy.. how dare they make any money! The nerve they have only paying those poor union workers $20 (or More!) an hour to put Part A with Part B. What most line workers don’t realize that most corporations profit margins are less than 5% after taxes! I hope these $20 dollar an hour employees realize that they have to add $400 dollars an hour value to the company for it to even make this paltry 5%… if they aren’t then the employee is really just costing the company.”"”
Oh please! Gimme a break!! The “poor” corporation. Yeah when they are paying the CEO and CFO $200 million a year, building a HQ with marble walls and floors and running private jets all over the country all to the tune of billions of dollars. And how often have you got to sit in the luxury skybox at the Falcons home games? God, gimme a break!
“”"The bottom line is that if more of the labor force unionizes then companies will be forced to outsource more of their product. It is all economics, businesses must now compete in a global economy…and that means that the labor rates have to as well. Unions seem to continually harp on companies that outsource a portion of their product, but what they are too ingnorant to see is that they are cause of it!”"”
Most places that CAN outsource are already doing it and MOST of it was done by NON UNION companies. As for the “global economy”, the industrialized world including the United States, is sooner or later going to have to decide if we want to lower our living standards to be those of a Chinese worker and become a 2 class society such as Hati where about 15% of the people live well and in gated communities and the other 85% live in poverty stricken shanty towns because that is the path that the Republicans are taking us down. There is an excellent column in our paper yesterday about how folks like accountants and radiologist- that thought outsourcing only applied to factory workers- are now facing the same thing from India. It is really funny how folks change their tune when it is THEIR job going to India or their dog or kid being poisoned by stuff coming from China! And if all this outsourcing is so good, why do so many car makers build plants here and hire Americans to put cars together? I would take a Honda built in Ohio over a Ford built in Mexico any day of the week!http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/tucker/index.html
So what?
Average Baseball salary = 3 million
Average football salary = 1.5 million
Average Basketball salary = 1 – 5 million
Average NASCAR salary – 3 million
This doesn’t include endorsement deals.
Some players are making over 100 million dollar contracts for a few years.
Lets talk about the disparity of how much these gus make to play a game!
Instead you want to play the classic game of attacking how much a CEO makes?
At least a CEO is running a multimillion or multibillion dollar business which provides goods and services.
What does a baseball player really do that is worh 5 million a year?
How much does Katie Couric get paid?
60 million over 5 years.
That is more than the average CEO makes.
Why not go after her?
I can go all day long with the huge salaries people besides CEO’s make.
Why not talk about them?
Why not go after her?Posted by: Nathan | September 03, 2007 at 08:49 AM
Hmmm….let’s see …
Today is Labor Day. The thread topic is unions, CEOs, and wages. Those are, as you’re so fond of saying, “in context.” Entertainer’s salaries aren’t the topic of the thread, and aren’t the context for the day.
Nice try at changing the subject, though.
I am not sure how we got to baseball from CEOs; but, they are both overpaid. I can think of a few others that receive more than their worth but that does not correct the CEO problem.
Are we trying to change the subject?
My astrologer once told me I’m a Libra, so let’s see if I can try to be fair about this and give CEO’s the benefit of the doubt. I mean, one thing I noticed about executives is they have the option to assign their underlings to put together one hell of a PowerPoint presentation that contains all the trendy corporate buzz words and almost succeeds in keeping you awake for the first ten minutes of the meeting. The key to achieving this kind of snooze material is to load the presentation with familiar phrases such as, “Going forward,” and “Grow our business.” Then you jam a bunch of meaningless one-line bullet phrases in-between the buzz words and talk in a monotone voice.
Lately, though, in my on-going struggle to be attentive at executive-led meetings, I’ve taken to getting a “Full Throttle” out of the pop machine approximately five minutes prior to kickoff. The minute I put my hands around the extraordinarily well-designed and marketed can (The CEO who presided over the PowerPoint presentation should have taken a twenty million dollar bonus), I know in my heart that I will last through the first half hour.
Hey, if that’s not worth $30,000 a day, then I don’t know what is.
One thing I don’t get: Why are the very people who claim they believe in freedom and free markets so opposed to unions?
People have their skilled labor to sell. Companies want to buy it. The people who OWN the labor set a price for it. The companies can always say “no thanks.” Of course, if they don’t want to buy the labor at the price it’s being offered, they could have trouble making their products.
The manufacturers don’t get to set the price of their other raw materials that go into their products, either. They have to either pay what the owners of those raw materials want, or go without.
Sounds like a well-regulated free market to me.
If a company’s board of directors {which represent the stock holders [the actual owners of the company (the ones that ultimately benefit or not from the CEO's decisions)]} want to put together a benefit package for a CEO that attracts the most qualified executives for the position, then it’s nobody’s business except the stock holders.
Hank
Liberals will not gripe about:
High priced attorneys
High priced atheletes
High priced broadcast news execs
Liberals gripe about “CEO’s” — the people who actually produce something.
Frankly, I do think some CEO’s are overpaid. But that is a decision for the stockholders.
Also, the “rich” pay a huge proportion of our current taxes. Much of what you pay them goes straight to the US Treasury.
Econ,
The wealthier Americans benefit the _most_ from this fabulous national infrastructure that the labor of their fellow Americans has built for them. OF COURSE they should pay for it.
CEOs are graded on their performance everyday by the stock holders. One failing year and they are warned, the second failing score (low profits/dividends) and they are thrown under the bus. If they are smart they have a golden parachute to grab on the way out.
One of the ways a business can make money is by cutting the cost of doing business (labor, materials, taxes, etc..). When it becomes unprofitable to do business in the US they just move their production to a more lucrative environment.
This is how the US loses jobs. More unionization? I don’t think so. Union leaders need a dose of reality before our industrial nation become a service only economy.
There has to be a balance between reality and lala land.
We are looking at CEO’s today but that is a very narrow view. The cost of business has gone up as benefits have gone up. Think malpractice lawyers (Edwards) that have caused healthcare cost to go up, causing health insurance to go up, causing the cost of doing business to go up, causing the cost of the product to go up, and on and on and on.
CEOs aren’t the problem. It is mind boggling to think that any person is worth that much money. But that is reality. We aren’t going to change that on this blog but might start to see cause and effect – something we can do something about.
It is amazing how little the Right Wing thinks of the working man or woman.
Unionization = Increased Outsourcing
The sad thing is you said it best. We’re competing with sweatshop workers in third world countries. We’re competing with people in India earning 5 dollars a day. How do we compete with that. That is the problem, how do we make doing business in America profitable again, no ones going to keep open a business here when they can go else where and make triple the profits from outsourcing. Essentially the rich are back to owning slaves, well in the third world countries, they pay kids 2 dollars a day to sew 100 soccer balls together, or shoes.
GOOD POINT, WSClark!
Hank (”I married a doctor”) has no use for unions, nevermind that union members had to DIE to bring him 40 hour weeks, two weeks off a year, and, yes, even the Labor Day weekend itself.
Companies are outsourcing, not because of union pay, but because starting with Reagan, the right-wing agenda has been to encourage outsourcing as a way to impose “market discipline” or the American working man and woman.
One of Reagan’s first real jobs was working for Westinghouse doing PR equating unions with “communism.”
CEO’s are entirely shielded with “golden parachutes” and gov’t tax breaks from “market discipline, of course.
Tom, Unions of the past, well and some current unions, are lazy, and whiny, they give unions a bad name.Thats why engineers in the aerospace industry are pissed off when they get a job at an aircraft company, the union workers making the planes are getting paid more than they are.
In the past, that meant a high school dropout could earn more than a person with a college degree, not anymore, now the tables have turned to the other extreme, which is hurting Americans in the other way.
Good morning Captain!
Actually, getting married to a doctor has been a very good addition to my Navy retirement!
Thankfully, I’m still able to bring a little common sense to the discussions here, even though I work more hours each week than the average union employee.
Hank
CEO’s often receive huge bonuses and comp., even as the company is crumbling around them, and the company is losing money. There is hardly any connection between performance and compensation.CEO’s sit on each others compensation committees, and keep giving each other increases.
Nathan, I always become nauseated by those figures.
Average Baseball salary = 3 million
Average football salary = 1.5 million
Average Basketball salary = 1 – 5 million
Average NASCAR salary – 3 million
I think Larry Johnson is getting about 6 million a year now, maybe more. This is sick.
Some of the compensation is outlandish I agree. I agree that salary should be performance based and not payable until after stock options are settled.
Ranking of Top 500 CEO’s by compensationhttp://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/Rank_1.html
General information on CEO compensation:
http://www.forbes.com/2006/04/17/06ceo_ceo-compensation_land.html
A poster upthread is prone to asserting that “liberals” are the only people who find CEO compensation to be absurd. This is nonsense. If you work in any of the large firms around town, one thing that you will notice is that textbook “liberals” are the exception. You will also hear a lot of grumbling, nonetheless, about CEO compensation. You will probably hear quite a bit of grumbling from people who vote Republican, people who complain about liberals. These same Limbaugh listeners are often the most bitter people in the office when it comes to discussing the excesses in CEO compensation. I mean, don’t get them started on a rant. You might be sitting there for a while and accidentally draw a disapproving glance from a manager.
I was not trying to change the subject.
My point was about the very fact that the WE Editors started a thread at all about CEO pay.
CEO pay is the great liberal beating horse.
The Democrats and the left wing always bash on how much CEO’s get paid.
I honestly don’t care that NASCAR, Baseball, football, or any other people make million dollar salaries.
If people don’t want to watch a baseball game for 50 dollars they don’t have to.
The same thing applies to CEO’s.
They are paid based on performance.
A good chunck of CEO’s are simple ordinary people who started from the bottom and worked their way up.
Many CEO’s were giving 80 hour plus work weeks before they were made CEO.
It is a very competitive field.
When a CEO can take a company from making 5 billion a year to 10 billion a year with his leadership, his 100 million dollar salary pales in comparison.
When a basketball player can take a team up in the rankings and polularity he is worth paying 20 million a year.
My only point is that most of the left loves to portray the CEO’s as some evil people who don’t deserve what they make.
“”"So what?
Average Baseball salary = 3 million
Average football salary = 1.5 million
Average Basketball salary = 1 – 5 million
Average NASCAR salary – 3 million”"”
They make too much too. You won’t me paying $70 for a ticket to a Falcons game to pay Michael Vick $130 million and I really do not like us having to build exclusive sports palaces for them. I have no problem with building an arena or football stadium so long as it is publicly owned and not exclusive to a private sports franschise. We built Phillips Arena here and the Atlanta Hawks pay rent and when they are not using, concerts and the circus pay rent too. And the pay for sports people is WAY out if line. Seems to be a million or two a year is plenty of money. Save half if it, play for 5 years and you can live pretty damn good the rest of your life.
Well, Nathan, as I mentioned in my post preceding yours, why is it that Republican voters are the ones who do most of the complaining about CEO compensation?
Warren Buffet said it best, when commenting on CEO Compensation. Warren Buffet himself receives a modest salary, but his wealth is on investment returns from his company, but his salary is modest.
He said the reason why CEO pay is so out of whack in ratio to workers from the past to what it is now is that companies play some sort of “my CEO is better than your CEO” game.
Meaning the Boards of these companies think it is important to pay a CEO huge salaries and perks just to say that their CEO is better than their competitor and hopefully that can relate into higher stock values based on false confidence that a “star” CEO will perform magically.
Another thing is that Boards of Companies are increasingly becoming unaccountable. That’s because a majority of people who invest in stocks do it through Mutual Funds and other retirement plans and not in individual stocks. And since Mutual Fund Companies only care about short-term gains, they could care less about the company. If the company under performs, they just sell out their shares.
But if people held individual stocks and looked towards the long term for investment purposes, especially demanding dividend income, rather than stock price gain, we would have a different ball game in CEO pay. Because people would be involved in the company affairs and attend share-owner meetings and vote for Board Members they see fit. But hardly anybody does that anymore. They just want to invest and forget.
“”"When a CEO can take a company from making 5 billion a year to 10 billion a year with his leadership, his 100 million dollar salary pales in comparison.”"”
And the CEO did all this?? He came down and designed and put together the Boeing Dreamliner with his own hands? The CEO is just a leader that makes the final decision AFTER input from the TEAM and then the TEAM (ie the workers) actually carry out the decision. As the leader, yes, the CEO deserves to be compensated but not at a rate that is like 1000 times what the rest of the team makes. That is just sheer lunacy. And yes, he deserves the biggest bonus when he does things right but not $30 million when the workers are getting zero. Why not $5 million for him and $10 million to split among the workers and $ 15 million back to the investers? Sounds like a plan to me.
Kev,
You are right.
Why on earth would a team pay 100 million for a soccer player and not pay all the other players more instead?
He is worth it.
It is that simple. It the CEO is not worth it he is fired.
What do you propose?
Should the federal government limit what a CEO can make?
I don’t even have a problem with giving a CEO 1000 shares of stock when he comes to work and telling him “if you make these go up, you get to keep the difference” BUT why not give the workers each 100 shares and telling them the same thing? Look at what Sprit Areosystems did. They let the workers share in the gains of the company along with the CEO and the stockholders and it is a win-win-win so far.
“”"Kev,
You are right.
Why on earth would a team pay 100 million for a soccer player and not pay all the other players more instead?
He is worth it.
It is that simple. It the CEO is not worth it he is fired.
What do you propose?
Should the federal government limit what a CEO can make?”"”
They should not limit what he makes but they should TAX the PISS out of excessive compensation and bonus packages for them- and all such people including sports players.
Another badly needed reform is to BAN CEOs from sitting on each others Board of Directors. That just invites corruption. And another thing I would do is bring back a HIGH capital gains tax rate but ZERO out taxes on dividends. This would encourage investers (and I am one BTW) to hold on to their stocks long term and actually pay attention to what is going on in the company. Show up at the annual meetings, vote and raise hell!
“”"Kev,
You are right.
Why on earth would a team pay 100 million for a soccer player and not pay all the other players more instead?”"”
There is NOBODY… repeat NOBODY on the face of this Earth that is worth $100 million a year. Not a single person. And the ONLY person that I would think would ever be worth $100 million a year would be the person that comes forward one day and says “here is a medicine I have developed that will end cancer”. That person I would pay $100 million a year to. Nobody else.
Kev,
Do you understand what determines worth?
What about baseball cards?
Should any particular card be woth thousands, even a million dollars?
It is after all only a piece of cardboard with ap icture on it which probably took less than a penny to make.
So should it be worth thousadns even a million dollars?
What do you propose, just tax the hell out of it too?
“”"Why on earth would a team pay 100 million for a soccer player and not pay all the other players more instead?”"”
And to answer that- yes- the rest of the team is the REASON the soccer player scores anything. If he is the star, pay him more but not 1000 times more than the players who are defending the goal for him or getting the ball to him. Not unless he can go out there all by himself and play the game. Even Michael Jordan knew that. When he first came to the Bulls, they were a sorry ass team and losing despite the fact that Jordan was scoring 40 points a game. At playoff time the Detroit Pistons would come to town and shame them. Jordan told the team “take some of my huge salary and go hire some talent” and when they did, they started winning.
Kev,
How about the Tiffan’t auction where they sold all the old Paramount props for Start Trek?
The replica for the USS enterprise went for almost half a million dollars at an auction.
Was it worth half a million dollars?
I bet it took barely 10,000 to make, maybe more.
So who decides it was worth paying half a million dollars for?
Should the government just tax that too?
Kev,
So tell me, what determines worth?
What is worth?
How is taxing “worth” going to solve anything?
As I mentioned upthread, Nathan, please persuade your fellow Republicans at the office on this issue. I mean, I have work to get done and Republicans keep coming around, leaning over the cubicle, and complaining about CEO pay. Who am I? Mother Theresa?
God Bless our American CEO’s and the historically great advances industry has made in America largely through their business efforts and ingenuity under the free enterprise of our capitalist system!
God Bless and pray for their continued perserverence in a country run amok with socialist clamoring for their downfall. Help them withstand the petty jeolousy of those less fortunate who stretch forth an empty hand full of nothing with a mouth full of “gimmee”.
Executive compensation is not a ‘poke in the eye of workers’. Each does a different job. You cannot make the simple comparison of salary between the two. It has no meaning.
Of course there are those out there wanting to increase governmental control of the economy. Then the ‘worker verses executive’ has meaning. Even when the poverty numbers have gone down. Nobody is starving in the streets. Go take a look at how the poor in America are living. Some people would be surprised at how well off those people are.
CEO compensation is just another red herring of political operatives.
America — indeed, the world — experienced the Libertarian dream a hundred years ago. Monopolies (and trusts) thrived, worker-safety was a non-issue, regulation didn’t exist, children worked in coal mines and steel mills, heroin was avaiable over the counter, widows and orphans starved, a precious few robber barons built palatial “cottages” on Newport Beach, immigrants were marginalized and exploited, women and minorities were second-class citizens, banks failed, the stock market experienced periodic crashes and panics, and by 1932 the have-nots outnumbered the haves by such a huge margin there was a real possibility this nation might go communist or fascist.
The “conservative” dream of lazzais fare capitalism is a morally corrupt as Marxism and has failed at every attempt.
America’s most successful 20th Century capitalist, Henry Ford, got that way by doubling the daily pay of workers, assuring they could afford to buy one of his products. Then he got greedy.
Under Sam Walton, Wal-Mart grew at its most productive rate when he insisted on keeping with a “Buy American” philosophy. They were still ruthless negotiators, but the people who made the products he sold had jobs and could afford to buy stuff. After Walton died, his heirs became greedy and went hell-bent to exploit third world workers, for temporary gain.
NAFTA, as promoted by Bill Clinton, assured environmental standards for foreign manufacturers, basic human right (including the right to organize, child labor laws, etc.) for Mexican workers, basic human rights… all of which were eliminated by the Republic-dominated Congress (with the promise that they’d readdress those issues in the future). Then, of course, George WMD Bush turned his back on outsourcing manufactures, gave tax breaks to corporations that shipped American jobs overseas, demonized any and all efforts for American workers to organize for their fair share of the profits they were creating for the coupon-clippers on Wall Street.
Early in his presidency Shrub addressed those he called “his base:” “The haves and the have-mores,” he called them.
The American Revolution, the French Revolution, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Chinese Revolution, up to the Islamic Revolution in Iran in the 1980s… in fact *every* revolution has come about because the have-nots discover they out-number the haves.
It’s not communist or even socialist to expect that a powerful economic machine benefits all who contribute to its success. It’s pure capitalism until it’s distorted by greed.
Post-WWII America enjoyed unprecedented prosperty back in the days the typical CEO made 100 times more than his average employee. We’re not up to where the average CEO gets 500 times more than the people who contribute to the employers’ success. And there are so many loopholes written by the Republic Party that a CEO doesn’t even have to make a profit to “earn” the Golden Parachute.
When talking about tax-breaks for the wealthiest Americans, the Republic Party just *loves* to trot out JFK’s tax breaks as an example of how “a rising tide lifts all boats.” So let’s go back to how the American economy grew in the 60s and apply JFK’s tax brackets, okay?
(Part of that period of prosperity involved expanding government’s role in healthcare, revising the government’s role as a safety-net for the less-fortunate, expanding civil rights, and not paying baseball players — or CEOs — $25 Million a year.)
Is it a mere coincidence that CEO’s pay inflated just about the same time all the companies started outsourcing US jobs?
When was the last time that a company in trouble reduced their CEO’s pay to stay afloat? Rather, when the company’s stock price is in jeopardy, there are layoffs of the working class – not the CEO’s.
It should be the other way around. A teamwork attitude has been missing for many years and it started with Ronald Reagan. Reagan was definitely not for the average American. Reagan and his clothes horse wife Nancy made the rich even richer and started this middle class decline.
Nancy Reagan talked about how difficult it was to take care of her Ronnie when he was sick but what Nancy Reagan and her kind do not understand, nor care about, is the fact that there are thousands of people who are caregivers to their loved ones with Alzheimers and these people do not have servants to help them. These people struggle each and every day to make it from one day to the next. So Nancy Reagan crying in her beer about her hard time of dealing with Ronnie sounded like pure arrogance to me. I’m sure the loyal lapdogs of the Republican Party is now going to jump on me for daring to say anything against their Golden God – Ronald Reagan.
And I do mean golden because the 80’s were known as the decade of the selfish.
“Executive compensation is not a ‘poke in the eye of workers’.”
Exactly correct. How much the CEO makes may be a “poke in the eye” of the investors, but the workers? I don’t see how. The CEO makes what he makes, the worker makes what he makes. If you don’t like it, you know what to do about it. And, no, whining is not one of the options.
Not going to jump on you maidmarion.
However, if you want to be mean spirited and talk about an elderly woman and man dealing with the hardships of a devastating disease, the by all means, be my guest.
You’re the one that has to wear the label of what you say
Hey, fleettwood? If whining is not one of the options, why the hell are all your Republican cohorts coming around and whining at the office?
I hope all of you have seen the PBS program on the WR Grace asbestos mine in Libby, Montana.
Why do we need unions? How about: 92% of 20-year Grace employees DIED of asbestos-related illnesses. Management never informed the workers they were working with the worst form of asbestos, health-wise, and in fact lied… told them they weren’t working with asbestos, they were mining “tremolite.” When a worker discovered this duplicity and confronted management, the “company man” just stretched out his arms and replied “well I thought everybody know that!’ and laughed.
The fiercly independant and proud folks of western Montanta probably never considered unionization; in fact, the community was very “pro” Grace and anyone questioning safety or pollution was a social outcast. Grace (or it predecessor) knew in the late 1950’s they were poisoning every mine or processing worker but never informed the workforce or took additional actions to protect their workers. Even worse, worker’s dirty clothing contaminated their homes and families, too. Many of those innocent people are now dying slow, painful deaths.
Could a union have prevented this? We can’t say with any certainty that Libby, Montana wouldn’t have “happened” with a union to watch over the health and safety of the workers, but my bet is that fewer people would be affected *today* had the workers known the reality about the heath risks and formed a union to watch over Grace’s safety program (such as it was).
As it was, Grace was on hook for damages, so they did what every responsible corporate citzen does: Grace transfered millions of dollars in cash out of it’s accounts and then filed bankruptcy. That was to protect the stockholders… All hail the might of equity…
Henry Ford was a benevolent dictator in the early days of Ford Motor Company. He had a geneuine concern for his workers and a philosophy that the best way to keep unions out of his factories was to have happy workers. Eventually he lost the touch for keeping workers happy and the “dictator” side became more prevalent. The rift widened to the point that Ford hired Pinkertons detectives to intimidate, harrass, and eventually kill union organizers. It’s an ugly little chapter in corporate history. The chapters involving miners have even more worker blood…
The disparity of CEO compensation to worker pay is easily explained by market principles: There is a much smaller pool of executive “talent” than there are workers. The value that either position brings to the final product or service is largely one of “who’s buying?” To stockholders with a sole interest in return, the value placed on the CEO is different than a consumer with a “green” or “worker friendly” purchasing agenda.
Regardless of one’s personal feelings about unions, I think it’s important to remember that our parents, grandparents, and their parents… built the cities, towns, highways, and seaports of our nation. They did it with far less than we enjoy, and did these things in conditions most of us wouldn’t work in today. For a musical look at this, find Tom Chapin & John McCutcheon’s “Doing our Job” and listen to Tom’s song “Our Mothers Built this City.”
We stand on the backs of giants, graciously provided by our ancestors, and the ancestors of others. What are we leaving for those who will stand on our backs?
Happy Labor Day.
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
tr– Me no get what you are whining about. Please be clear.
fleettwood: Look upthread. Your Republican voters are the ones who whine about CEO pay at the office.
That said, good luck with the discussion because I have to skedaddle.
Unions had a purpose decades ago when there wasn’t an OSHA or as many safety and health regulations as there are today.
With the inclusion of HAZMAT required on almost every job, the worker today is protected far more than in the past. One phone call by a worker can bring a State/Federal team down on a company like a ton of bricks.
Unions today are political lobbying groups now, not much in the way of protecting the worker, but to preserve an ideology or a political will.
I think someone has given TRTaliaferro a wedgie, he’s squealing in an exceptionally shrill voice today.
“Your Republican voters are the ones who whine about CEO pay at the office.”
Then they must be RINO’s. If you don’t like your pay, work to get it where you want it or use the feet God gave you. The pay was OK when you hired on. If the pay hasn’t kept pace with what you think it should be, do something about it.
Unions had a purpose decades ago…Unions today are political lobbying groups nowPosted by: Kansas | September 03, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Let’s disband all the unions. The day AFTER we disband every Chamber of Commerce or other industry group in the nation.
Does that work for you all?
We stand on the backs of giants, graciously provided by our ancestors, and the ancestors of others. What are we leaving for those who will stand on our backs?Posted by: LTB
Giants who smoked two packs a day and provided second hand smoke to their children. Giants who built the USA industrial giant by polluting our rivers, lakes, and air. Giants who never had car seats for 80 pound kids nor seat belts. Giants who’s wives stayed at home while one bread winner brought in the groceries.
Giants who we baby boomers are all now supporting with 15% of our income dedicated to paying their social security and another percent for their medicare and prescription drug benefits.
Giants who REFUSE to participate in any correction to the SS/FICA/MEDICARE problem – yet DEMAND even more from their children.
Meanwhile, the children both work, husband and wife full time to maintain the same basic standard of living the folks had with only one worker. And both are paying for the seniors life of lavish and second home in Arizona.
God Bless them all.
The Board of Directors, people largely beholden to the CEO, determine the pay. Stockholders, in concert, could stop this, but stockholder are usually only concerned with profit.
Anyone notice how many corruptly-run corporations have had exhorbitant CEO compensation? Even if you’re completely unmoved by the numbers, its makes little sense for CEOs to make MORE money while the business is tanking (yes, it has happened!). Just some thoughts.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go use this day that other died to give me!
Let’s disband all the unions.
Posted by: Tom
Don’t worry about us disbanding the unions Tom. They only make up a tiny 7% of the American work force today. A whopping 12% if you include the mandatory membership of government workers.
They are a dying breed whose members do not follow the mantra to vote for the AFL/CIO candidates.
They are like the caveman and dinosaur. They are a smaller population that the black minority in America.
Unions had a purpose decades ago…Unions today are political lobbying groups nowPosted by: Kansas | September 03, 2007 at 12:24 PM
Uhm, , right. There’s certainly NO instance (let alone countless) of management putting the screws to workers to maximize their bottom line, or simply because they can! /sarcasm
Ya know, sometimes stupidity is its own rebuttal.
Just for giggles and laughs, I pulled the Kansas Lobbyist directory from the Secretary of State’s website http://www.kssos.org/elections/lobbyist_directory_by_Client_display.asp
This list is just the lobbyist registrations starting with the letter “K”; it’s most representative of how lobbying is organized in this state (and across the nation, for that matter).
Here’s your assignment, “capitalist purists:” Go through this list. Check off which are industry associations, and which are labor unions, and which are social welfare/religious associations. Count them all up.
Correct answers will include the ratio of for-profit industry associations to everything else. Then we can have a classroom discussion on EXACTLY who it is that spends the most time and money looking for government favors, handouts, and regulation.
KANSANS AGAINST BI STATE
KANSANS FOR ADDICTION PREVENTION
KANSANS FOR ECONOMIC GROWTH, LLC
KANSANS FOR LIFE
KANSAS ACADEMY OF FAMILY PHYSICIANS
KANSAS ACADEMY OF PHYSICIAN ASSISTANTS
KANSAS ACTION FOR CHILDREN
KANSAS ADULT CARE EXECUTIVES
KANSAS ADULT EDUCATION ASSOCIATION
KANSAS ADVOCATES FOR BETTER CARE INC
KANSAS AFL-CIO
KANSAS AGGREGATE PRODUCERS’ ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AGRIBUSINESS RETAILERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AGRIBUSINESS RETAILERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AGRICULTURAL ALLIANCE
KANSAS AGRICULTURAL AVIATION ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AREA AGENCIES ON AGING ASSN.
KANSAS AS’N OF OSTEOPATHIC MEDICINE
KANSAS ASSOCIATION FOR CAREER AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION
KANSAS ASSOCIATION FOR MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPY
KANSAS ASSOCIATION FOR THE MEDICALLY UNDERSERVED
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF ADDICTION PROFESSIONALS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF BEVERAGE RETAILERS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF BROADCASTERS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF CHAIN DRUG STORES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF CHIEFS OF POLICE
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF COMMUNITY COLLEGE TRUSTEES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF CONSERVATION DISTRICTS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF COUNTIES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF DEFENSE COUNSEL
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF DISTRICT COURT CLERKS & ADMINISTRATORS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF FINANCIAL SERVICES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF HEALTH PLANS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF HOMES AND SERVICES FOR THE AGING
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF INSURANCE AGENTS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF INSURANCE AND FINANCIAL ADVISORS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF MASTERS IN PSYCHOLOGY
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF MORTGAGE BROKERS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF NURSE ANESTHETISTS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF PRIVATE CAREER COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF PROFESSIONAL INSURANCE AGENTS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC EMPLOYEES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF REAL ESTATE INSPECTORS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF REALTORS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF RESIDENTIAL & COMMERCIAL INSPECTORS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF RETIRED SCHOOL PERSONNEL
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL BOARDS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL PSYCHOLOGISTS
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF TECHNICAL SCHOOLS AND COLLEGES
KANSAS ASSOCIATION OF WHEAT GROWERS
KANSAS ATHLETIC TRAINERS SOCIETY
KANSAS AUCTIONEERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AUTOMOBILE DEALERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS AUTOMOTIVE RECYCLERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BANKERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BAR ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BEER WHOLESALERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BEVERAGE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BLACK CHAMBER FOUNDATION
KANSAS BOWHUNTERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS BUILDING INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CABLE TELECOMMUNICATIONS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CASA ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CATHOLIC CONFERENCE
KANSAS CATTLEMENS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CEMENT COUNCIL
KANSAS CEMETERY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
KANSAS CHAPTER, NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF SOCIAL WORKERS
KANSAS CHILDREN’S SERVICE LEAGUE
KANSAS CHIROPRACTIC ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CITIZENS FOR THE ARTS
KANSAS CITY BUSINESS RIGHTS COALITION COMMITTEE
KANSAS CITY CANCER CENTER
KANSAS CITY CHAPTER, ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS
KANSAS CITY KANSAS CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
KANSAS CITY KS PUBLIC SCHOOL DISTRICT 500
KANSAS CITY MALL ASSOCIATES
KANSAS CITY POWER & LIGHT
KANSAS CIVIL LAW FORUM
KANSAS CLUBS & ASSOCIATES
KANSAS COALITION AGAINST SEXUAL & DOMESTIC VIOLENCE
KANSAS COALITION AGAINST THE DEATH PENALTY
KANSAS COALITION FOR LIFESAVING CURES
KANSAS COALITION FOR WORKPLACE SAFETY
KANSAS COLLECTORS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COMMUNITY CORRECTIONS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CONGRESS OF PARENTS AND TEACHERS, INC (KANSAS PTA)
KANSAS CONTRACTORS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COOPERATIVE COUNCIL
KANSAS CORN GROWERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNSELING ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY AND DISTRICT ATTORNEYS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY APPRAISERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY ASSOCIATION OF MULTI-LINE POOLS
KANSAS COUNTY CLERKS AND ELECTION OFFICIALS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY CLERKS AND ELECTION OFFICIALS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY OFFICIALS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS COUNTY TREASURER’S ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CREDIT ATTORNEYS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CREDIT UNION ASSOCIATION
KANSAS CRIME STOPPERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS DAIRY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS DENTAL ASSISTANTS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS DENTAL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS DENTAL HYGIENISTS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS DISTRICT JUDGES ASSOCIATION
KANSAS ECONOMIC PROGRESS COUNCIL
KANSAS EDUCATION COALITION
KANSAS ELECTRIC COOPERATIVES, INC.
KANSAS ELECTRIC POWER COOPERATIVE, INC.
KANSAS EQUALITY COALITION
KANSAS FAMILIES UNITED FOR PUBLIC EDUCATION
KANSAS FARM BUREAU
KANSAS FARMERS UNION
KANSAS FIRE SERVICE ALLIANCE
KANSAS FIREWORKS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS FOOD DEALERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS FOUNDATION FOR MEDICAL CARE
KANSAS FUNERAL DIRECTORS & EMBALMERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS FUNERAL DIRECTORS AND EMBALMERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS GAS SERVICE
KANSAS GOOD ROADS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS GOVERNMENTAL CONSULTING
KANSAS GRAIN AND FEED ASSOCIATION
KANSAS GRAIN SORGHUM PRODUCERS ASSN
KANSAS GRAPE GROWERS AND WINE MAKERS ASSN.
KANSAS GREYHOUND ASSOCIATION
KANSAS HEALTH & FITNESS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS HEALTH CARE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS HEALTH CONSUMER COALITION
KANSAS HEARING SOCIETY INC
KANSAS HOME CARE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS HUMANITIES COUNCIL
KANSAS IGNITION INTERLOCK ASSOCIATION
KANSAS INDEPENDENT COLLEGE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS INDEPENDENT OIL AND GAS ASSOCIATION (KIOGA)
KANSAS LAND TITLE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LAND TRUST INC
KANSAS LANDFILL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LANDOWNERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LEGAL SERVICES, INC.
KANSAS LEGISLATIVE POLICY GROUP, INC.
KANSAS LIBRARY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LICENSED BEVERAGE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LIFE INSURANCE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS LIVESTOCK ASSOCIATION
KANSAS MANUFACTURED HOUSING ASSOCIATION
KANSAS MEDICAL CENTER LLC
KANSAS MEDICAL MUTUAL INSURANCE COMPANY
KANSAS MEDICAL SOCIETY
KANSAS MEDICAL SOCIETY
KANSAS MENTAL HEALTH COALITION
KANSAS MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELORS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS MOTOR CARRIERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS MUNICIPAL UTILITIES, INC.
KANSAS NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION
KANSAS NURSERY AND LANDSCAPE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS OCCUPATIONAL THERAPISTS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS OPTOMETRIC ASSOCIATION
KANSAS ORGANIZATION OF STATE EMPLOYEES, AFT/AFSCME, AFL-CIO
KANSAS PAYDAY LOAN ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PEACE OFFICERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PEST CONTROL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PHARMACISTS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PHARMACY COALITION
KANSAS PHARMACY SERVICE CORPORATION
KANSAS PHYSICAL THERAPY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PODIATRIC MEDICAL ASSN.
KANSAS PORK ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PRESS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PROFESSIONAL BAIL BOND ASSOCIATION INC
KANSAS PROFESSIONAL SURETIES
KANSAS PSYCHIATRIC SOCIETY
KANSAS PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS PUBLIC TRANSIT ASSOCIATION
KANSAS QUARTER HORSE RACING ASSOCIATION
KANSAS RACING, LLC DBA THE WOODLANDS
KANSAS RAILROADS
KANSAS READY MIXED CONCRETE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION
KANSAS REGISTER OF DEEDS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS RESTAURANT AND HOSPITALITY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS RIVER WATER ASSURANCE DISTRICT
KANSAS RURAL INDEPENDENT TELEPHONE COMPANIES
KANSAS RURAL WATER ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SCHOOL COUNSELORS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SECURITIES INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SEED INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SELF-INSURERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SHERIFF’S ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SIERRA CLUB
KANSAS SOCIETY FOR HUMAN RESOURCE MGMT
KANSAS SOCIETY OF ANESTHESIOLOGISTS
KANSAS SOCIETY OF ASSOCIATION EXECUTIVES
KANSAS SOCIETY OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS
KANSAS SOCIETY OF LAND SURVEYORS
KANSAS SOCIETY OF PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERS
KANSAS SOCIETY OF RADIOLOGIC TECHNOLOGISTS
KANSAS SOYBEAN ASSOCIATON
KANSAS SPEECH, LANGUAGE AND HEARING ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SPEEDWAY CORPORATION
KANSAS SPORT HUNTING ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SPORTS HALL OF FAME
KANSAS STATE COUNCIL OF FIREFIGHTERS
KANSAS STATE NAACP CONFERENCE BRANCHES
KANSAS STATE NURSES ASSOCIATION
KANSAS STATE RIFLE ASSOCIATION
KANSAS STATE TROOPERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS STATE UNIVERSITY ALUMNI ASSOCIATION
KANSAS STATE YOUTH SOCCER ASSOCIATION
KANSAS SURGICAL HOSPITAL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS TAXPAYERS NETWORK, INC.
KANSAS TELECOMMUNICATIONS INDUSTRY ASSOCIATION
KANSAS THOROUGHBRED ASSOCIATION
KANSAS TRIAL LAWYERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS TURNPIKE AUTHORITY
KANSAS VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION
KANSAS VITICULTURE AND FARM WINERY ASSN.
KANSAS WINE AND SPIRITS WHOLESALERS ASSOCIATION
KANSAS WORKERS RISK COOPERATIVE FOR COUNTIES
(correction: It’s just the list of lobbying groups that start with the word “Kansas”)
However, if you want to be mean spirited and talk about an elderly woman and man dealing with the hardships of a devastating disease, the by all means, be my guest.
You’re the one that has to wear the label of what you say
Posted by: Kansas
I was merely stating that Nancy Reagan was complaining about the hardship of caring for Ronnie.
What’s wrong? Did I hit a nerve with the hypocrit Republican in you?
You call me mean spirited for talking about Nancy Reagan but the Republicans supported and laughed at Rush Limbaugh when he imitated Michael J Fox shaking from Parkinsons.
Republicans are not mean spirited, is that your mantra now?
My posting was about how this all this CEO pay started escalating during Reagan’s years. And that was about the time that US companies started outsourcing, which added insult to injury.
Why did you not comment on that part of the posting, Kansas?
Then we can have a classroom discussion on EXACTLY who it is that spends the most time and money looking for government favors, handouts, and regulation.Tom
Thank God that industry is still spending some money to promote themselves! We need some healthy competition to the socialist using their influence to steal from my back pocket. There is plenty of room for all the greedy at the government trough.
It is lucrative to lobby. Has been since the term was coined in the civil war.
Call it pork barrel politics or the politically correct “earmarks”.
It’s what our federal and state government is all about these days.
Part of the American way of life.
Poor “Kansas” just doesn’t get it.
The only-est reason there is an OSHA or Haz-Mat first-responders is that organized labor led the fight to give worker safety the power of government.
Sheesh.
The only-est reason non-union people get a coffee break is beacuse unionized workers made it a standard and management was forced to go along with such things as the 40-hour workweek, not hiring child labor, establishing pension and healthcare plans. (Of course, the Republic Party has always worked to allow management to fudge on those promises.)
Hey, I’m the first to admit to abuses of power my some labor unions; but where did they learn those tactics?
There will always be an uneasy balance between labor and management. But the scales of capitalism have been too-aggresively unbalanced toward capital against labor in recent decades.
The very survival of capitalism depends on restoring balance between those who *produce* profit and those who skim off the benefits.
Trust me, “Kansas.” You don’t want to live in an America where the have-nots overwhelmingly outnumber the haves.
Those of us in the middle mostly want to work for a living, raise our families, and provide opportunity for our progeny. Those at the top mostly want to get another mansion in Aspen, buy another yacht, maybe finance a movie so they can nail a starlet. The ever-expanding group of those at the bottom are getting more than a little pissed off that they’re producing profitablity for all sorts of companies and not getting compensated for their efforts.
Thanks to the Republic Party, the so-called “conservatives,” and George WMD Bush, those at the bottom are gaining numbers.
I’m solidly middle class. I can’t afford a Learjet and I don’t particulary resent those who can. After all, a lot of people in my salary range build the things.
But he have Republics in power who’d much rather make Gulfstreams affordable to their “Base,” putting the Learjet workers out of business in favor of bigger airplanes built by workers paid sub-standard wages. If you have your way, tell me how it works out.
Even the kid who turns 75-cents worth of flour and water and tomato and sausage into a 10-dollar pizza deserve a better share of the profit than s/he’s getting now.
It might mean one less condo in the south of France for the CEO, but it has the benefit of being right in a *truly capitalist* mindset.
As I said, I’m probably secure in the middle class. I’m not likely to be a Learjet customer but my daughters will probably get through college and I’ve got enough to live comfortably for the rest of my life. But if the trends continnue and I live too long, who knows?
Lemme tell ya: you don’t want to be around when the have-nots outnumuber the the haves and you’ve got a crotchety 80-year-old with nothing else to live for spurring them on. That’ll be me and we’ll demand and win our share of America’s prosperity.
“Sociaism?” Well, according to the Republic Party, anything approaching social justice and civilization passes for “socailsm.” So, yeah. Maybe. “Communism?” I hope not, since it’s just as immune from how people work as lazzais faire capitalism. “Something in between?” Where people who contribute to wealth-production get a fair share of their contribution? Yeah. Sign me up.
You really, really, “Kansas,” don’t want my friends to out-number you.
We can make America work, we villified “liberals.” You and the “conservatives” have had your chance. And you’re hell-bent to ruin what America can be.
Why do Republicans have no problem with corporations at the government trough to get their corporate welfare but when it comes to helping the average Americans, the Republican will balk and start ranting about taking care yourself.
Could be because the Republicans are profiting from the corporations welfare in the way of stock profits?
One man’s definition is greed is another man’s definition of entitlement and that is the problem.
Unions today are political lobbying groups now, not much in the way of protecting the worker, but to preserve an ideology or a political will.
Posted by: Kansas |
If Bob Dole can be a lobbyist for the Arabs, then why can’t the unions also be lobbyists?
Geez, I need to go. Oh well. One more post.
Hey, “libs,” get with the program!
Corporations = goodUnions = bad
Corporate lobbyists = goodUnion lobbyists = bad
Corporate welfare = incentivesEconomic welfare = socialism
The purpose of America is to insure that investors get rich. Didn’t you get the memo?
Let’s see, the CEO’s have responsibility for the overall operations of the coporation.
Responsibility for an operational budget in the 8 to 12 figure range, that is a budget of $10 million to $10 billion and more.
Compare that to the line worker’s responsibility to put one widget on the product.
The owners (stockholders) of a company can control the amount of executive salaries already.
You Socialists want Government to control salaries instead of the owners of the company?
OK, then you should also favor the Government controlling ALL salaries, including YOURS!
Government has no business or Constitutional authority to dictate salaries. Government already dictates the taxes we have to pay.
How much control over our lives do you want Government to have?
I always love to read this “opinions”. Those that are defending the CEO’s and calling the others “liberals”.So lets do it the other way. All of those defending the CEO are “right wing ultra bible thumping do gooder conservatives”. Why don’t you take you living to SE Asia and see if you can keep you wages…let alone you life styles. One problem is that the CEO’s set at the top and say that labor cost to much but pull up to work in a $300,000 car. The live in a house that is worth $1,000,000 plus all on the shoulders of those WHO REALLY do the work and when they decide they have had enough the raid the company funds and bankrupt the business…..they live well but those who have worked for years are screwed. We call that white collar crime….but that is ok unless it is a company the size of Enron…and you get caught. I have but one question for all of those reading this….does it take a $1 million dollar house or a $100,000 car to make it though life? I am not asking whether some one has earned…but do you really need these high priced toys….or should you reinvest in your company and/or employees? We wonder why we can compete with the world on production….don’t put all the blame on the workers……a lot of the blame HAS to go to the greedy CEO and Board of directors who allow this obscene thing to happen!
The ever-expanding group of those at the TOP are getting more than a little pissed off that they’re paying the majority of taxes for all sorts of government programs and not getting compensated for their efforts.
What if the top 10% just said SCREW IT?
What they lack in numbers they make up with in finances. We can build our own army.
Who made you ROBIN HOOD and gave you the GOD GIVEN RIGHT to demandMY MONEY??
Audacious!
We can make America work, we villified “liberals.” You and the “conservatives” have had your chance. And you’re hell-bent to ruin what America can be.
You had your chance, both when the Democrats last controlled Congress, and now when they control it again. Same old politics as usual, regardless of whether you are a D or an R. Soon, independents will gain enough strengths to kick both your sorry parties out.
One man’s definition is greed is another man’s definition of entitlement and that is the problem. Posted by: maidmarion
There is plenty of room for all the greedy at the government trough. Posted by: American Way
Who the hell do you think has the money to pay the taxes any more….it is not the workers…it the greedy bastards who don’t pass the money down….if you remember “reganomics” failed.
Didn’t you get that memo…or were you still in grade school!
noneya
So, genious, are you telling us that the economy was better under Jimmy Carter than it was at the end of Reagans term?
lot of the blame HAS to go to the greedy CEO and Board of directors who allow this obscene thing to happen!
Posted by: Noneya Business
Blame for what? Nothing is broken. Read the KCSTAR.COM on American productivity in today’s issue.
And no we don’t need one million dollar homes – we need five million dollar homes. And no not 100K cars, we need 200K cars.
Where have you been? We have every RIGHT to spend OUR money (let me repeat that) OUR money in any fashion we WANT.
It’s our money, right?
It’s certainly not yours.
Or is that your claim?
Are there really rich people relentlessly STUPID as to believe this is simply about taking their money and giving it to someone else?
“Rich and powerful breed only with themselves/We all know what happens when too much of this happens/The offspring they pop out just ain’t real bright”
http://www.lyricshead.com/lyrics/biafra-jello/sharks-in-the-gene-pool-%252a-lyrics.html
With all the greedy at the government’s trough, won’t the government eventually break under the pressure?
And no self-respecting Republican would allow the government to subsidize his/her standard of living – or would he/she?
Do away with all lobbyists.
Unions are bad, they care more about their leadership have power and less about their members getting treated fairly. They will go out of their way to protect a worker that needs to fired.
As a union member since 1991, my union increased my dues as a lower level employee and decrease the dues for the higher level employees.
I have seen more union jobs go overseas than non-union. Consider Boeing, it is outsourcing a lot of its work and it has strong unions. Also, Boeing Commercial sold the Wichita plant because the unions were asking for too much. Spirit came in and offer the union a great deal, but they were too greedy and refused it. So Spirit let all employees go and offered to bring back most of the employees, but the next deal was significantly less than the first offer. The union screwed over its employees by encouraging them to refuse the first deal.
No Econ101…what I am telling you it was better under Clinton than any rep in the past….you have to be rep. I cna belive you even brought that up….were you dead in the 90’s…and were revieved under our wonderful Dick and Bush!
if you remember “reganomics” failed.
Didn’t you get that memo…or were you still in grade school!Posted by: Noneya Business
No I must have missed that memo. Seems to have worked great for me and everyone I know.
Because Noneya Business doesn’t have as MUCH as someone else, those with MORE are bad, sinful people?
Who has the most important job at Wal-Mart?
I think it’s the person who brings the carts back into the store.
Without those $300 carts, customers can only buy as much as they can carry.
The end effect would be billions of dollars lost, because Walmart is all about impulse buying.
Corporate welfare is just as bad as regular welfare.
Kans,”However, if you want to be mean spirited and talk about an elderly woman and man dealing with the hardships of a devastating disease, the by all means, be my guest.”
There are a lot of couples dealing with devastating diseases with little or no resources left. Considering that the man you’re talking about worked hard to make sure that the ones taking care of disabled mates and trying to make it on the SSD of one had it much harder than before, I’d say my sympathy ran a bit thin for him. He had the best medical care in the world, thanks to us taxpayers, while the couples on SSD had to figure out how to eat and buy prescriptions each month. It’s been good for the pet food industry anyway.
Paul – Of course Reagan made the corporations wealthier by attacking the middle class.
But a country only compiled of wealthy corporations will not have the backbone of the middle class to keep an economy going.
Reagan ushered in a decade of selfishness. Those years were all about me-me-me.
And what happens when a country starts dividing themselves into the haves and have nots? That country will eventually collapse and is that what you want for the US?
The offspring they pop out just ain’t real bright” Psted by: Rage
Stereotyping? You are really Archie Bunker.
Not really–I was asking a question.
what happens when a country starts dividing themselves into the haves and have nots? That country will eventually collapse and is that what you want for the US? Posted by: maidmarion
That’s exactly my point – the federal government needs to stop taking from the rich and giving it to the poor. Stop trying to make everyone the same. That is not governments duty to it’s citizens. That is pure socialism.
LTP,
The only reason?
Are you a single theory conspiratorial believer? OSHA exists because of Unions?
Sorry LTP, I’ll go with the written history of state and federal agencies, not the Liberal revisionist one.
That’s exactly my point – the federal government needs to stop taking from the rich and giving it to the poor.
Posted by: Two sides to every story | September 03, 2007 at 01:33 PM
Do you honestly believe that’s actually being done? Or that anyone on this blog has actually advocated that? For real??
I have some Enron stock I’d like to sell you.
I gather all the carts as part of my job at Walmart.
I want more money!
I should make the same as the CEO!
the federal government needs to stop taking from the rich and giving it to the poor
Do you honestly believe that’s actually being done? Or that anyone on this blog has actually advocated that? For real??Posted by: Rage
Yes I do believe it. Go to the IRS website and see who is paying the vast majority of taxes.
If you are advocating anything from government you are advocating taking more from the top.
If you are referring to the subject at the top of this thread, and are advocating taking more from CEO’s and giving it to other workers, same applies.
Now if you are just calling the CEO’s sinful and greedy, that’s o.k.. It’s like protests for prohibition. Just another group of people passing judgement on another group. And attempting to use government to establish moral laws.
Rage,Of course the rich aren’t about to help the poor; they need to poor to be wretched in order to threaten the middle class while they make off with money.
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml
If anybody wants to see the real problems of our society, this will do more than explain it.
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml
“If you are advocating anything from government you are advocating taking more from the top.”
And going to who?? So you’re an anarchist then? No government at all?
I went to you libertarian site.Now I know why you call yourself a white elephant.
Fat chance.
Clinton inherited a growing economy that started under Bush I. Bush II inherited an economy that had started to tank. Clinton promised 8 million jobs in his first year, but the CBO said the economy would create 9 million jobs if left alone. Clinton changed it and he reached his 8 million number, costing America 1 million new jobs.
It is sad that the hate filled and intolerant trolling is done by those who claim to be loving and tolerant (the neolibs).
And going to who?? So you’re an anarchist then? No government at all?
Posted by: Rage
Please don’t jump to unsound conclusions.
You asked me two questions. I answered them.
mm, the neolib parents ushered in the me, me generation, not Reagan. I did not like Reagan, but that wasn’t his fault. It is the neolib policies that done as much damage, if not more, than the neocon policies.
“Clinton inherited a growing economy that started under Bush I.”
Uhm, right. That’s why we booted his ass out. That one isn’t in the memory hole yet, “Moderate,”
“The tail end of the late 1980s recession, that had plagued most of Bush’s term in office, was a contributing factor to his defeat in the 1992 Presidential election to Governor Bill Clinton of Arkansas.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Herbert_Walker_Bush
Livertarians realize the problems with a strong and large central government, as did our Founding Fathers. It is a shame that the Rep. took lessons from the Dem. and made it even bigger.
Now if you are just calling the CEO’s sinful and greedy, that’s o.k.. It’s like protests for prohibition. Just another group of people passing judgement on another group. And attempting to use government to establish moral laws.
Posted by: Two sides | September 03, 2007 at 01:47 PM
Excellent point Two Sides. The Socialists ARE trying to impose their moral values on the entire country.
Yet these same LIBS get pissed-off if any conservative wants to impose their moral values on the country.
Goodluck with that, I used this name White Elephant to pose as a right wing conservative Christian republican, to F-ck with people, the phrase white elephant speaks volumes of our current president, guess I’ll change my name if that makes you happy
Rage, I don’t know where you got your information, but the economy was rebounding towards the end of the Bush I years. I am not a fan of either Bush, but I believe credit should go where it is due. Name calling only shows you have a weak position.
Is it not a moral judgement to say that rich people should have their money taken by the government and given to poor people?
If not, then the Conservatives calling for permanent tax cuts are not making moral judgments either.
Libertarian platform
read the whole thing, if you would like to see things from a different light.
http://www.lp.org/issues/platform_all.shtml
Ok Moderate….what happend to all the money we had in our goverment under Cliton. We were in the black. With in months Bush give the rich the biggest tax breaks in the US history. Rich get richer and the poor get poorer. I think you need to take a trip to a third world country….maybe as a US military and observe what it is like with no middel class. Trust me you will be suprised.
mm, the neolib parents ushered in the me, me generation, not Reagan. I did not like Reagan, but that wasn’t his fault. It is the neolib policies that done as much damage, if not more, than the neocon policies.
Posted by: Moderate
Nice try, Moderate, but Ronald Reagan and his clothes horse wife Nancy were all about the me-me-me decade. They were arrogant people and truly believed they were above the rest of us.
And I do not know of any neolibs that are out for only themselves. If that were the case, then many things you take for granted today would be non-existent. Liberals tend to look out for the entire population – not just the wealthy few with arrogant smirks on their faces trying to talk to the little people. Perfect example is Leona Helmsley – she put it best only the little people pay taxes.
A white elephant is a supposedly valuable possession whose cost (particularly cost of upkeep) exceeds its usefulness, and it is therefore a liability.
I was posing as a right wing Christian conservative, the last few days, but I’m through screwing with people. The phrase white elephant is how I view the bush administration
Excellent point Two Sides. The Socialists ARE trying to impose their moral values on the entire country. Posted by: Max
Thanks Bro! The liberals pass judgement and their immoral gas all day long on the blog.
It is only fair that there are two sides to an argument or opinion. I guess that may be unacceptable conduct to the “us” on this blog.
I can’t help wondering what these sites will look like one Billary/Obama take office.
I imagine a real love fest.
“Please don’t jump to unsound conclusions.”
Unsound conclusions? You stated “That’s exactly my point – the federal government needs to stop taking from the rich and giving it to the poor.”
I challenged this stupidity–in fact, funding government programs–whoever they might benefit–is NOT “taking from the rich and giving to the poor.” It never works that way.
Your response: “If you are advocating anything from government you are advocating taking more from the top.” Naturally, the wealthy pay more in taxes, and, in a progressive taxation system, a higher percentage. So what? If wealthy person pays a greater percentage to a construct a highway than I did, am I a freeloader? Should we ban welfare recipients from driving?
YOu were the one, I remind you, who put it in terms of advocating ANYTHING from government. If you oppose government doing anything, that is by defintion anarchy.
Actually, White Elephant, George W. Bush is the pink elephant in the room. No one wants to acknowledge they see him. But the problem here is that GWB has an 800lb gorilla next to him (Dick Cheney) who is the real reason to fear for the future of our country.
The Republicans have been driven by the Religious Right since the 1994 Contract on America propaganda.
There has never been any more moral judgement being thrown around than by the Religious Right.
So I do not think it is only the liberals that have their moral judgments. The only difference is, the Religious Right will condemn you to Hell if you do not believe exactly as they do. The Religious Right presume to be God and be the judge, jury and executioner.
The top 50% income group pays 96% of the total income tax.
So ANY Federal program is paid by the top half – or 96% of it is.
Those in the bottom 50%, logically then can be brainwashed into becomming Socialists! They are told they can’t do anything on their own, and that they need Government to do everything for them, including wiping their noses!
It’s OK to be in the bottom 50%. It’s not OK to ask the Government to steal from the top 50% as a proxy theif for the bottom 50%.
That’s a moral decision forced upon all of America by you Liberal Socialists.
Rage,
CEO pay still a poke in the eye to workers Posted by Randy Scholfield
His opening thread compares CEO salary to workers. Then he compares the “new federal minimum wage to executive salaries and compensation”
Finally he writes, “issues of economic fairness that will surely be themes in the 2008 presidential campaign.”
Now if he isn’t promoting government getting involved in taking money from the rich CEO’s and redistributing it to those who make less (poor), I’m missing it.
I see Max is having a furious argument with himself again.
There is a difference between neolibs and libs, the same as there is a difference between cons and neocons.
I see as much proof of the cons making the world a better place as I do the libs.
The Dems promised change if they got elected, and how they would not do what the Reps were doing. Yet, they started doing it as soon as they got in power. If Americans had remembered why the Dems were voted out in the 90’s, independent and third party members would control the Congress, and the D/R party would be in the minority.
It is amazing how people attack the Rep party, and ignore how the Dem party is doing the exact same thing.
Big business supports the party in power. Before the Dems lost control of Congress, they received 60% of big business money and the Reps received 40%. That changed when the Reps gained control, and it changing again since Dems regained control.
Dems. are as much in the pockets of big business as the Reps., but their defenders turn a blind eye towards the hyprocisy.
Religious Right will condemn you to Hell if you do not believe exactly as they do. The Religious Right presume to be God and be the judge, jury and executioner.Posted by: maidmarion
I disagree with you on most every issue (not that it matters, I’m rarely on board). But I agree with you on this one. Can I be a right wing conservative – who disagrees with any religious proponent of the republican party?
Well I wish the republicans would DROP the religious right altogether. Get off that band wagon from the seventies and get with the world of today.
We can be for big business, less government handouts (for big business, farmers, and the poor), a strong defense, smaller government, and less regulation without holding a bible in our hands.
I think that would be more honest.
It’s OK to be in the bottom 50%. It’s not OK to ask the Government to steal from the top 50% as a proxy theif for the bottom 50%.
That’s a moral decision forced upon all of America by you Liberal Socialists.
Posted by: Max
Good Post Max. But your numbers and f.a.c.t.s. probably confused the blue people.
“Now if he isn’t promoting government getting involved in taking money from the rich CEO’s and redistributing it to those who make less (poor), I’m missing it.”
If he suggested “taking money from the rich CEO’s and redistributing it to those who make less (poor),” I missed THAT.
He didn’t *say* ANYTHING like that.
He implies that the mininum wage needs to be higher, so I guess if you view demanding a decent wage as somehow stealing money (add that to your creative definition of terms), you would have a point.
Moderate, you got that one right, big business will back whatever party they think is going to get into office. They don’t care, our two party system is closely resembling a one party system, that leaves the citizens bickering over stupid party differences when it doesn’t even matter, because money controls our politics today.
CEO’s of large corporations make their multimillion dollar paychecks by keeping the corporation producing as much profit as possible. From year to year, if the budgeted profit is not met, then the CEO will decide to lay off as many average workers as it takes to make the profit larger.
At what point does the CEO stop laying off the actual workers who are doing the work? At what point will it take for the CEO and the shareholders to realize that a corporation is only as strong as their workforce?
At what point does greed come into play in the CEO’s and shareholders thinking? I’ve seen corporations who make a profit one year but it is not what was budgeted for them to make and they raise all Hell and start laying off workers. Nevermind the fact that the corporation still made a very good profit – it was just not the profit they had budgeted to make.
So instead of being content with the profit, their greed drives them to lay off workers. These laid off workers are then on unemployment benefits or welfare? How is that going to keep the economy going?
Corporations have been allowed to run rampant without any regard to the total picture of our country’s wealth and health. The corruption and greed of the corporations and their shareholders will be the downfall of this country.
Max, at one time someone posted the numbers from the IRS on exactly how much people were paying in taxes. It demonstrates those over 29K annually are paying the bulk of taxes, and that all the proposals by the democrats to sock the rich, in fact will be socking it to the middle class, to include the lower middle class.
Do you have that link?
WE: I prefer Dems to Repubs, but I have no illusions about either (or the LP and Greens, for that matter).
P.S. Am I an “unaffiliated” voter.
Yes!
I am unaffilated voter as well. I think we need open primaries so I get to vote, but few R/D parties support. I am also against the electoral college since that means about 12 states determine who the president will be, instead of 50 states plus DC
We have open primaries in Arizona. I like it!
And, now, I’m gone–for real!
Happy trails folks!
We still have the freedom not to spend our money, when our we going to collectively boycott certain business that we deem corrupt, greedy, or uncaring. That would send a loud and clear message to almost any CEO, we can’t live without oil for the time being. So any oil companies we can’t boycott, maybe we should start small with toy companies, the kids can live without lead painted toys from China for awhile. We should start flexing our economic spending power.
Many of you do realize the original purpose of the minimum wage laws, why it was made.It was to keep U.S. citizens from going south of the border to work.Just think much of the wages and benefits thru out the years were created to ATTRACT and MAINTAIN the highly skilled workers not sub-standard workers.So what is happening today?Did we run out of highly skilled workers or did the highly skilled workers become spoiled and monarchial.Did the highly skilled but spoiled workers find a way to skirt around other highly skilled workers by using sub-standard workers as leverage?It is obvious on how far this has gone on, it is call illegal immigration.
Btw, here is a definition for you.
living wage n. 1. A wage sufficient to provide minimally satisfactory living conditions.Also Called minimum wage .
The American Heritage Dictionary
Not to worry, as more and more companies outsource to Mexico,thanks to NAFTA, at some point Americans will be sneaking illegally into Mexico for decent paying jobs.
That will also solve our illegal immigrant problem as they will make more in Mexico than here.
Forgot to add, Edwards wants MANDATORY testing by all Americans under his new healthcare system. So, if you don’t feel like going to the dr., then the govt. will force you to.
Moderate add up the population of New York and California. See how many small states you can wipe out entirely if you went to popular vote?
Two Sides, here’s the info I think you were looking for. It’s from the IRS for 2004. 2005 data may be available now.
…………Income….. Tax Share
Top 1%___>$363,905___36.73%
Top 5%___>$142,975___56.23%
Top 10%__>$100,957___67.67%
Top 50%__> $29,899___96.60%
Bottom50%____< $29,899_____3.40%
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/04in07tr.xls
Good post, Max
ksgm,
You forget that CA and NY don’t vote 100% for either party. As it is now, the small states dont count at all. If you win the biggest states by 1 vote, then you typically get all of that state’s electoral college. Look at Reagan, he won all but one state’s colleges, but his overall win was much smaller, giving the appearance of a supermajor victory.
Enough smaller states can overcome CA and NY. CA and NY alone wont win the election. TX and several other states offset the CA/NY effect.
The margin that many presidents have won by could easily have been changed by counting the small states and DC. Four elections in our history have had the popular vote winner lose the electoral college vote.
By the same token, primaries should be all held on the same day that way the small states dont get the advantage.
Hey, “Econ101.” You misspelled, “Stupid misleading post, Max.”
Torture the numbers long enough and they’ll convince you of anything.
Even 70-year-old Jane Fonda gets more money for playing a dried up prune of a hag in a movie than you will ever make in a lifetime. But *you* are responsible for paying 96.7% of the federal tax bill and Jane Fonda’s paying meer 37.69%!
Good luck with that agenda.
“”"Nancy Reagan talked about how difficult it was to take care of her Ronnie when he was sick but what Nancy Reagan and her kind do not understand, nor care about, is the fact that there are thousands of people who are caregivers to their loved ones with Alzheimers and these people do not have servants to help them. These people struggle each and every day to make it from one day to the next. So Nancy Reagan crying in her beer about her hard time of dealing with Ronnie sounded like pure arrogance to me. I’m sure the loyal lapdogs of the Republican Party is now going to jump on me for daring to say anything against their Golden God – Ronald Reagan.”"”
GOD I so AGREE with that. Reagan was not a Godsend to this country. He was a damn disaster to the working folks here. It was he who started the war on the middle class. And hopefully next year- I am praying to God- that we can bury his agenda along with him.
How much more in taxes would the rich pay if not for the poor and working class paying in SS which goes into the general fund and reduces the burden of debt for the income tax?
“”"The Kansas ultra-low-wage perspective is smart. It has already rid Liberal of most of its undesirable German-and Polish-American element, so that now Latino immigrants are the town’s most populous group. Can you say LEE bey rahl?”"”
I guess because Liberal is liberal it will find ways to live with its new majority!
“”"”How about the Tiffan’t auction where they sold all the old Paramount props for Start Trek?
The replica for the USS enterprise went for almost half a million dollars at an auction.
Was it worth half a million dollars?
I bet it took barely 10,000 to make, maybe more.
So who decides it was worth paying half a million dollars for?
Should the government just tax that too?”"”
Yer darn tootin they oughtta tax the HELL out of that! A luxury tax that is nice big and fat! All luxury things should be subjected to a luxury tax. Yachts, cars that cost more than $50,000, houses that cost more than $1 million. Tax em!
“”"Liberals will not gripe about:
High priced attorneys
High priced atheletes
High priced broadcast news execs”"”
That’s a lie. Excessive compensation and bonuses should be TAXED like hell no matter who is getting it.
“”"”One of the ways a business can make money is by cutting the cost of doing business (labor, materials, taxes, etc..). When it becomes unprofitable to do business in the US they just move their production to a more lucrative environment.
This is how the US loses jobs. More unionization? I don’t think so. Union leaders need a dose of reality before our industrial nation become a service only economy.”"”"
Then why has not Cessna and Beech moved off shore? They are union aren’t they? So why haven’t they packed up and gone to China or Mexico? Maybe is because Russ Meyer and whoever runs Beech have figured out that they cannot find people that know how to put together an airplane over there. Maybe these guys figure that, if they are sending up poisonous toys and dog food, maybe we ought to not test their airplane building ability yet!
Give them time and they will. Boeing has moved much of it stuff overseas since their unions have become unreasonable, including places like China. Think about that next time you fly in a Boeing plane.
Unions used to be good, but they have become so politicized that now that support lazy workers over productive ones. All union leaders look for is ways to increase their clout,income, and power.
Kev when you are looking at giant salaries – look at what your union bosses make. You just might be surprised how much better they do than you rank and fall guys. When you are on strike, they keep getting paid, when your ins. is suspended they still get theirs paid for – I could go on but I think you get the picture.
Raytheon – Beech – a few years did move some of their production to Mexico. Hundreds of jobs were lost and at least one Kansas facility was shut down.
By the way I asked you earlier where was choice in your decision to make your 16 year old daughter have an abortion if she came home pregnant?
“”"Kev,
So tell me, what determines worth?
What is worth?
How is taxing “worth” going to solve anything?”"”
How do you determine it? To me it is like this: I am a field engineer for a major cell phone company. When a cell site goes down, I have to go and fix it- often along with a telco employee. Both of us are represented by a union and we both are compensated at about $23 per hour plus benefits and since the benefits are good, let us say that our total compensation is $50 an hour including what the company pays for workers comp, SS, vehicle, tools, equipment and training. So for both of us that is $100 an hour. We spend 2 hours putting a site back in service that is worth about $1 million in equipment. The site processes, let’s say 8000 air minutes an hour (that is 134 calls in an hour which is about right for an urban system that is 95% utilized at peak). That means this site is earning the company around $400 per hour using the industry average of about 5 cents per minute. That means in 2 hours, if it is not up, the company suffers a loss of $800 not to mention pissed off customers getting dropped calls and “network busy” because all the neighbouring sites cannot handle the overload. So it cost the company $200 to get that site back in service quickly. So are me and the other tech worth it? I think so.
“”"By the way I asked you earlier where was choice in your decision to make your 16 year old daughter have an abortion if she came home pregnant?”"”
Minors do not have choices. There is a reason for that. So they won’t make stupid ass decisions that ruin their lives. I am not saying I would REALLY force her to do that but as long as she THINKS I will, that is good nuff.
“”"Kev when you are looking at giant salaries – look at what your union bosses make. You just might be surprised how much better they do than you rank and fall guys. When you are on strike, they keep getting paid, when your ins. is suspended they still get theirs paid for – I could go on but I think you get the picture.”"”
The president of my local makes about $82,000 a year. Not out of line for a local that has about 4000 members. And if membership goes up, he gets a bonus. I do not know what the national President makes but I am quite sure it is far less than the CEO pay of ALL the fortune 100. As for strikes, the union leadership does not decide to strike. They only recommend accept or reject a contract offer. If the offer is rejected then the membership votes on whether to strike to keep negotiating. Last time when the clock hit midnight we had not agreed upon a new contract but the membership- not the union President- decided to keep talking because we were close to agreement and 36 hours later we had a new contract.
No doubt the local officers make in that range. My husband was a United Rubber Worker for 23 years and the national leaders in Akron made more the the CEO of BF Goodrich at that time. I doubt that it has changed much. You pay the salary it takes to hire the person you want.
“”"Give them time and they will. Boeing has moved much of it stuff overseas since their unions have become unreasonable, including places like China. Think about that next time you fly in a Boeing plane.”"”
I guess we will find out. By the time they finish turning this country into a third world shithole like Mexico is, nobody will be able to buy a ticket to fly on a Boeing plane anyway so it won’t matter.
Kev if you think that your 16 year old is sexually active why haven’t you put her on birth control?
Why depend on a morning after pill?
ksgrm – why are you so obsessed about someone else’s 16 yr old daughter choosing to have an abortion?
Is your life so empty that it takes something that is none of your business to be obsessed about?
“”"Unions used to be good, but they have become so politicized that now that support lazy workers over productive ones. All union leaders look for is ways to increase their clout,income, and power.”"”
Unions must, by law, represent ALL their workers- and in some states even workers who are not union members. That doesn’t mean that unions “support lazy workers” anymore than Dennis Rader’s attorney “supports serial killers”. It is just more often than not that “lazy” or other undesirable workers end up in hearings because their bosses try to discipline them. IF the boss followed the proper procedures and documented the case for discipline and applies the disciplinary steps fairly, the case will stand. There are bosses at my job that have never lost a greiveance procedure because they take the time to properly document a worker’s problems and they apply discipline legally. There are other bosses that lose lots of hearings because they want to play the role of asshole and try to bully and intimidate people.
“”"Kev if you think that your 16 year old is sexually active why haven’t you put her on birth control?
Why depend on a morning after pill?”"”
It has already been made clear to my little girl that, the day she feels she needs birth control, I will take her to the doctor to get it. She has not asked yet.
Our goal on this day should be to once again establish a union nation and rebuild the middle class again. We should set a goal of bringing union membership to at least 50% within the next 10 years- up from the current 10% of so that it is now. Uniionization of monster mega retailers like Wal*Mart has to be a top priority.
MM and Kev I set here daily and hear the left espouse the choice children should have. No parental notification if they seek an abortion.
Ocassionally the right gets a chance to demonstrate the hipocracy of the left. That is the reason for my questions.
Kev I can see unions from both sides. At one time they were the backbone of the labor movement. I feel that they have crossed over a line that is pricing mfg. out of our country. Right or wrong it is happening. We can’t turn time back and stop getting increased benefits and salaries with each negotiation. Unions will never become as powerful as they once were. A very real threat to unions and their strength is the demo movement let by Ted Kennedy to legalize all immigrants. This would give the unions a whole new crop of union maybes. How long do you think it will be before this new crops comes in with union wages way below the current wages? A step up for them a step down for older workers.
Think about this. Why else would the demos be pushing this movement. Union membership is way down. Union have long been a strong backer for democrats. Do the math.
Well I wish the republicans would DROP the religious right altogether. Get off that band wagon from the seventies and get with the world of today.
We can be for big business, less government handouts (for big business, farmers, and the poor), a strong defense, smaller government, and less regulation without holding a bible in our hands.
I think that would be more honest.
Posted by: Two Sides
I agree with you on smaller government, big business (but not to the detriment of the entire country), less federal handouts.
I am tired of the status quo where the trick is to abuse the system (both rich and poor alike) and then expect the country to be fiscally sound, our military defense to be ready and our infrastructure to be maintained.
I don’t care which party is in power and I really do not care what name they go by, if anyone could go into the White House and actually accomplish these basic things – then I would vote for that person even if he is name is Bozo and he has bright red hair.
So it cost the company $200 to get that site back in service quickly. So are me and the other tech worth it? I think so.
Posted by: Kev | September 03, 2007 at 05:28 PM
And that goes on every hour after hour or do you get less pay when you are not getting a system back up?
I’m not saying you shouldn’t earn as much as you do.
The implication however is that you are constantly saving the company $400 an hour.
I’m guessing that isn’t the case.
How come Democrats get exempted?
It was the Democrats that not too long ago created hell for my family and other union workers in Northern New Mexico. Back in 1999, GTE was selling its New Mexico units. One of the potential buyers that eventually did buy the Espanola Unit was a company (dba Communications at that time), set up by a group of Democratic business people, including the wife of Senator Jeff Bingaman, Tony Anaya, etc. In order to “sweeten” the deal, GTE offered to lay off some of the workers. This was done despite the fact this “layoff” would definitely hurt the operations and was NOT needed. My husband was one of those slated to be cut off. Several of the other union workers were also in great fear, considering their financial needs at the time, and also knowing the status of the operations and worker level requirements.
This group of Democratic buyers accepted the layoff offer, never minding how it would hurt and harm workers and families needlessly! We wondered how something like this could just be passed off as “acceptable for the sale” by New Mexico Democrats. Many of the workers at the Espanola office were scared to death over being forced to quit, just so this new company could buy out GTE. Several workers approached the representative of the union, Communication Workers of America (CWA), but they did nothing to help the union members out. What was my husband paying the monthly union dues for when no one stood up for him against this great injustice? I wonder if CWA got something financial out of this to not say anything against the sale?
The GTE telecommunication workers later were handed out copies of some of the sales announcements, which included the names of the people managing and running the buying company.
And these CEO and company leaders continue their corrupt ways, and nobody in the press reports it?
Uniionization of monster mega retailers like Wal*Mart has to be a top priority. Posted by: Kev
Why on earth would you do that? American is about freedom and choice. We are a right to work state. If I decide with my own mind and beliefs NOT to join a union, why do you feel a right to FORCE me to join and have union dues mandatorily withheld from my pay?
That is UN American.
The TRUTH is the union doesn’t amount to jack squat anymore. They cannot convince workers to join them – so they go to CONGRESS and ask them to MANDATE unions, and end my RIGHT TO WORK in 22 states. Not one, not two states. But 22 states allow workers to make their own choice.
Unions cannot win on a fair playing field, so they convince people like Kev that they should support FORCED membership!
Choice to kill unwanted babies, but NO choice on unions.
Kev you are wanting to dictate to the American people. That is not democracy.
Very sad. What really gets the unions goats, is they support whatever candidate they want, but their 7% national membership, does NOT vote the party line. The 5% of government workers certainly do not vote with the blue states consistently.
So they want to FORCE Americans to join.
And watch how much FASTER American jobs will move to China.It will make your head spin.
don’t care which party is in power and I really do not care what name they go by, if anyone could go into the White House and actually accomplish these basic things – then I would vote for that person even if he is name is Bozo and he has bright red hair.
Posted by: maidmarion
Amen. I wish the bloggers here would be more objective about the candidates instead of concentrating on party affiliation.
It becomes another sport. Chiefs versus the Bronco’s. We ALL get caught up in defending our team.
Instead of realizing we are all Americans, the two-party system contines to separate us into the blues and the reds.
I believe that is also by design.Sad.
“”"Why on earth would you do that? American is about freedom and choice. We are a right to work state. If I decide with my own mind and beliefs NOT to join a union, why do you feel a right to FORCE me to join and have union dues mandatorily withheld from my pay?”"”
I am not trying to force you to join anything. I would hope you want to join. It is your employer that uses threats and imtimidation to keep you from joining.
Yup, I have Libertarian views, but I realize that any party is just as susceptible to the pitfalls of our other two major parties. The truth is money ruins a lot of good politicians, they might have good agendas they want to accomplish for the good of the country, but those agendas can be easily compromised by spending your whole term in office making all the people happy that put you in office from their campaign contributions. They will try and make their financial constituency happy because not only did they help put them in power, they most likely slipped them some large personal checks in their back pockets. Politicians are supposed to serve the people, not just the people that give them money, and help put them in power. The scary thing is, Bush had no wholesome agendas to improve our society, he didn’t even need any campaign contributions, he was born into wealth, and everybody he is associated with, is the deemed “Haves”, and we voted him in anyway.
“”"And that goes on every hour after hour or do you get less pay when you are not getting a system back up?”"”
I am ALWAYS getting a sysytem back up or doing maintenance to keep it up.
So let’s fix the right to work problem.
I belong to the Union. We negotiate our wages and benefits collectively. I get a contract book that tells me what to expect for the next 3 years, both wages and benefits.
If you choose not to belong to the Union, how about you go negotiate your own wages with the company. You take what you get, with no representation nor power of numbers. You will have to negotiate your pay without knowing what your fellow workers make, or by just going on hearsay. You have no rights to the grievance process. You have no rights to representation by someone trained in the workings of federal and state laws. In other words, if you don’t pay your dues you are on your own! If you can suck up good enough, you might do OK. If you are not a favorite son, too bad.
Could you go for that? That would be true “right to work”. But no, usually it is the people who won’t pay their dues that demand the representation, that are the first in line for the new contract books, and are the one’s who are more than willing to file the grievances. They want the benefits without the pay….in any other situation they would be called thieves.
I have never advocated that ANY worker be FORCED to join a union. I am just saying that it is employers and the NLRB that DENY you the right to choose. That is why the check card law needs to be passed. So employers cannot stammer, stall, issue threats to workers and all the crap they do to avoid you having the right to be represented. As for right to work- fine- I will make you right winger types a deal- I will give you right to work in ALL 50 states if you wish. That’s right! But in return let’s have some real choice- give the unions the full right to fairly organize and present their case and give the workers the right to sign check cards stating that they wish to join if they want. Because I think we can get 50% plus 1 in most places. Most workers know they are underpaid and treated like shit. As for the right to work- fine. Don’t join. But let’s be fair- if you do not wish to join, why should you have the right to union representation if you get into trouble at work? (this one really gets me because the union bashers are always the first to call when they are in trouble or got bypassed on the call out list) Why should you get the contract signing bonuses of $2500? After all you didn’t vote yeah or nay on it. Oh, and the dental plan- which is ran and funded by the union and your free life insurance- you don’t get that either. And when your kid needs braces that are gonna cost you $3000 that costed me $1000, don’t bitch about it because you didn’t want to pay the $36 a month it cost you to enjoy all this stuff. So yes, I am all for the right for you to choose. Just don’t ask for services you don’t help pay for.
I put my 16 year old on birth control when she was 15 JUST BECAUASE.
Eventually it was gonna happen. So far, she’s still a virgin. At 17 and I’m proud of that.
I would NEVER chance it…an abortion is the last thing I want her to feel she has to choose. SO I try to keep that out of the equation.
Kev, I am as pro-choice as you can get, but you are IGNORANT if you think an abortion will cure all of her problems and have no effect on her at all. You’d be much MUCH wiser to get her on birth control. That’s how pro-choicers do- they try to be proactive and responsible before the need arises…we don’t say ‘oh well they can just get an abortion’.
We know mistakes happen, and that it should be legal and safe to have an abortion. You aren’t the one who has to experience the abortion, so you should not force that decision on your child! If you want her to remain childfree, take precautions FIRST.
“”"”Could you go for that? That would be true “right to work”. But no, usually it is the people who won’t pay their dues that demand the representation, that are the first in line for the new contract books, and are the one’s who are more than willing to file the grievances. They want the benefits without the pay….in any other situation they would be called thieves.”"”
Same damn bunch where I work! But we don’t call them thieves. We call them Republicans!
They want the benefits without the pay….in any other situation they would be called thieves.
Posted by: RustyFord
You must work for one of the few employers in America with union workers. YOu only account for 7% of the American workforce. You got that? YOU ARE A VERY SMALL MINORITY.
You cannot force your union beliefs on me or anyone else. I did not ASK you to bargain for me.I did not come to you with my resume and ask YOU for a job. I asked my EMPLOYER. I work for him not you.
I am content with that, as are the vast majority of American workers.
By the way, I just bought you a new Ford, I need your check. Ya, I know you didn’t ASK me to bargain to get you a new Ford, but I did it anyway.
You are FORCED to pay.
You like that?
“”"You’d be much MUCH wiser to get her on birth control. That’s how pro-choicers do- they try to be proactive and responsible before the need arises…we don’t say ‘oh well they can just get an abortion’.
We know mistakes happen, and that it should be legal and safe to have an abortion. You aren’t the one who has to experience the abortion, so you should not force that decision on your child!”"”
She has been lovingly told that anytime she feels the need, I will get her birth control with no questions asked. As for forcing her to have an abortion I really would not and probably could not anyway. But I sure as hell want her to think I will.
“”"By the way, I just bought you a new Ford, I need your check. Ya, I know you didn’t ASK me to bargain to get you a new Ford, but I did it anyway.
You are FORCED to pay.”"”
You know that Ford was probably made by a UNION…. that ought to bug you cons!
I was disappointed when Gephardt was bought to help Onex get their deal through. The IAM sold out for the pension accounts, and Gephardt sold out for some stock and cash, and the working stiffs got screwed.
As for right to work- fine- I will make you right winger types a deal. Kev.
I have news for you Kev – the huge majority of Americans, and workers do NOT belong to unions and don’t want union representation.
You are really alone in this. A dying breed, if you will. Why? Because most of us: DEMOCRAT and REPUBLICAN do NOT belong to unions.
Can I make it any clearer?
I don’t have to be fair. I don’t have to give your tiny fraction of a minority a RIGHT, where no RIGHT belongs.
Your numbers are dwindling as we speak.
The ONLY WAY, and I say the ONLY WAY, your unions will grow is if you FORCE IT DOWN THE THROATS OF THE 93% of AMERICAN WHO DO NOT BELONG TO UNIONS.
It isn’t going to happen. Hopefully, for you, your union will dry up and stop extorting union dues from your paycheck. Money you will never see again. Money the mafia profited from for decades and money that will never provide you a salary when you get layed off or fired.
You see, I’ve been there. I’ve done that (AMCBW). I know what little unions do for hard working Americans.
But I grew out of that past, and am doing much better now. I’m in a career path free of union slowdowns. My company is competitive and growing!
“”"And watch how much FASTER American jobs will move to China.It will make your head spin.”"”
You’d have a hell of a ride to Wal*Mart if it moved to Bejing. You know it is really funny to hear cons sing the praises of a hard core Communist nation where you have NO freedom. But hey, it ain’t like freedom was ever REALLY on the conservative agenda anyway. They want freedom for themselves and nobody else. If you dare try to take away their guns, they will have a shit fit but it is OK with them if the government and big business stomp on your rights.
“”"I have news for you Kev – the huge majority of Americans, and workers do NOT belong to unions and don’t want union representation.”"”
How do you know what the vast majority of Americans want? Have you asked them?
You’d have a hell of a ride to Wal*Mart if it moved to Bejing. Kev.
Walmart sells merchandize. It does not manufacture anything (except great profits).
As a typical man, I’d have to say Walmart sucks. Shopping sucks.
But, I enjoy shopping there. I can get ANYthing I need at Walmart. And I like the prices. I like the little old man who welcomes me and gives me a cart.
But if he joins a union, and the prices go up. I won’t shop there anymore.
Walmart closes. Walmart declares bankruptcy and tries to reorganize. Union bulks and says no. Walmart closes eventually. Workers all loose there jobs.
Happens EVERY day in America. I’ll post todays link.
Although I don’t agree with everyones views on here, which is good, different view points, and constructive argument is how we learn things. I do respect that there is people that actually somewhat care about wtf is going on in the world, and being on here is to a certain level being involved.
Unlike half the people that watch mind numbing t.v. on hours on end and then complain why our country sucks so much. I really think watching too much mindless t.v. make people stupid, Really, it does make people stupid. Which I like to watch t.v., but the kind of stuff where your learn things, or makes you think, Like national geographic channel, documentary style programs, south park, the daily show, and the Colbert report, and occasionally different news channels.
Have you asked them?Posted by: Kev
93% Kev. ALmost the entire workforce. Remember most of these are no longer dirty manufacturing jobs in America. White collar, service jobs.
I’m sure.
Evidently no one has seen “dirty jobs” on the Discovery Channel. :)
“”"But, I enjoy shopping there. I can get ANYthing I need at Walmart. And I like the prices. I like the little old man who welcomes me and gives me a cart.
But if he joins a union, and the prices go up. I won’t shop there anymore.”"”
Not necessarily. Maybe it means the Walton family makes a few less BILLION this year so that poor old man that greets you at the door can afford to eat tonight. And even if it did result in a small increase, so what? You cannot afford a few cents more so that nice old man can go see the doctor tomorrow?
How do you know what the vast majority of Americans want? Have you asked them?
Have you?
As to why, simply if most Americans wanted unions, they would be part of a union. They would organize and do what was done at Boeing not too long ago. Seems that union did not last long because the employees saw the union doing nothing for them, other than taking union dues.
The below happens over and over again in America. Labor prices (wages and benefits) increase so much the company is no longer profitable/competitive. They try to get the union to meet them halfway and the union ALWAYS says no. When it comes down to brass tacks, the judge follows the business plan which allows for profits – or closes the plant and breaks it up to the creditors. The employees loose their jobs because they would not meet the company demands. Fair or unfair, the union’s voice is always the same. And the company closes.
Happens all the time in America. These jobs go to China, or an NON-UNION company which forms shortly thereafter.
Guess what? The employees BEG to come back to the new company for lower wages:
Interstate Bakeries Corp. is shuttering four Southern California bakeries and eliminating 1,300 jobs because of high costs, weak pricing and a confrontational relationship with one of its unions, the company said.
But in announcing that it would quit selling bread in Southern California, the company, which has been in bankruptcy for nearly three years, sounded an alarm.
The Kansas City-based baking company and maker of Hostess and Wonder brands said Tuesday that its lenders and creditors were losing patience with its inability to get a buy-in for its business plan from unions and ultimately emerge from bankruptcy. It said that cooperation and concessions from its unions were crucial to its survival and that the buy-in needed to come soon.
A top official with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, which represents 30 percent of the company’s 25,000 employees, reacted quickly to Tuesday’s news, saying the company had made no attempt to work with the union to find a solution in California.
“It’s about doing what’s right to save the company,” she said. “We first talked to our biggest unions — the BCTGM (Bakery, Confectionery, Tobacco Workers and Grain Millers) and Teamsters — June 14. We have been consistent in what we have said we need to help save the company.”
In recent weeks, Interstate has been sharing its plan to restructure its business with its lenders, unsecured creditors and unions. Interstate has until Oct. 5 to present the court its plan of reorganization. If it does not present it by then, or get an extension from the court, then any group could offer a plan, including selling in whole or in pieces.
Interstate, which has been in Chapter 11 since September 2004, has closed nine plants and will operate 41 after it closes the four in California. It will have eliminated more than 8,000 of the 32,000 jobs it had when it filed for bankruptcy.
The four bread, bun and roll plants Interstate intends to close are in Glendale, Pomona, San Diego and Los Angeles. The company also plans to eliminate approximately 325 routes and close 17 distribution centers and 19 outlet stores by October 29, 2007. It estimated it would take charges for the closures of about $29.2 million.
About 1,100 of 1,300 workers affected by the closures are members of the Teamsters. Most of the rest are members of the BCTGM union.
http://www.kansascity.com/business/companies/story/251515.html
And if you really hate unions, please don’t dial 911 and ask for a union EMT, firefighter or cop to come to your house. And don’t send your kids to public schools to be taight by union teachers. Maybe Wal*Mart will start schools, fire departments and police services. Hey- we can even buy the fire engines from CHINA!!
Yea, I occasionally watch Mike Rowe, when he was in Wichita, and cleaned out part of a kc135.
Unions are always the first to give concessions to businesses in trouble. For example all of Delta Airlines unions gave huge pay and benefit cuts to save the airline. But often, after the unions do this to save the company, as soon as the company makes a dime of profit, the CEO and CFO pocket millions and jump out with golden parachutes.
Maybe it means the Walton family makes a few less BILLION this year so that poor old man that greets you at the door can afford to eat tonight. Kev
Don’t hold your breath. Stockholders the world over go for profits. They do NOT consider the little guy. Doesn’t happen. Not in any of the stocks or funds I belong to.
Two Sides, that isn’t the link I was referrring to, but it illustrates the problem all the same. Thanx
If I wasn’t union, I would probably either run my own business or just say to hell with it and retire early. There is no way I am getting up everyday to kiss some other man’s ass. Spent too much time, effort and pain to get where I am to do that.
It is not about hating unions, it is about what they have become. Unions are now about the dollar and increasing the leaders power and money, not about helping the regular employee. I see this all the time in my union as well as other unions.
Union leaders are pricing themselves out of the market. Spirit and Boeing are great examples of that. Boeing would have stayed had the unions been willing to accept necessary changes. When Spirit offered their first deal to the union, the union said no. They all got laid off and those former employees got a second offer that was much lower than the first.
Government unions are even worse than the typical unions
please don’t dial 911 and ask for a union EMT, firefighter or cop to come to your house.
Posted by: Kev
Not in MY town in Kansas Kev. Our City Council did NOT approve a bargaining unit. Thank God. I didn’t need my local taxes going up especially when all the democrat candidates at the national level are planning on increasing my Fed taxes too.
ALL KANSAS CITIZENS LISTEN UP: Because the firefighters lost, they are going to our STATE LEGISLATURE to change the law on local union represetation for fire, police, and EMT. They want to change the law to take the decision AWAY from your local elected officials.
There is only ONE promise by having unionized firemen, policemen, and EMT’s for city/county residents: HIGHER TAXES.
That is the bottom line truth. It is NOT going to increase the SERVICES your firemen, policemn, or EMT’s provide for you.
No change in SERVICE, but HIGHER COST. This is common sense logic.
Pay attention to the state legislature on this.
The unions cannot win on their own, so they want to FORCE the state to screw you.
“”"Not in MY town in Kansas Kev. Our City Council did NOT approve a bargaining unit. Thank God. I didn’t need my local taxes going up especially when all the democrat candidates at the national level are planning on increasing my Fed taxes too.”"”
Wait! I thought you cons were for choice when joining a union. Now you are saying the firfighters should not have the CHOICE to join the IAFF but that their bosses- the City Council should have to give them “permission” to have the right to collective bargaining.
Americans the most Productive Workers in the World.
GENEVA — American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.
They also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States “leads the world in labor productivity.”
The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.
The productivity figure is found by dividing the country’s gross domestic product by the number of people employed. The U.N. report is based on 2006 figures for many countries, or the most recent available.
Only part of the U.S. productivity growth, which has outpaced that of many other developed economies, can be explained by the longer hours Americans are putting in, the ILO said.
The U.S., according to the report, also beats all 27 nations in the European Union, Japan and Switzerland in the amount of wealth created per hour of work — a second key measure of productivity.”
That probably wouldn’t include Union workers because as soon as the whistle blows, the parking lot empties like the air let out of a balloon. :)
Kev,
Labor laws for public employees (state and federal) are different than private companies.
I might add, the city public employees work FOR the citizen. The City Council represents the CITIZEN. They look out for the interest of the CITIZEN. They KNOW the union means more local costs (heck you have to hire a special UNION experienced lawyer and bargaining employees just to start).
The CITIZENS are like th BOARD OF DIRECTORS or CEO of a corporation.They have the choice.
It’s the state and federal laws. Get over it.
Because they are taxpayer funded the laws are not the same as for private industry. Whine about that now.
“”"Union leaders are pricing themselves out of the market. Spirit and Boeing are great examples of that. Boeing would have stayed had the unions been willing to accept necessary changes. When Spirit offered their first deal to the union, the union said no. They all got laid off and those former employees got a second offer that was much lower than the first.”"”
That is not what I heard. I heard the second offer was better than the first and included shares of company stock that have since went up in value quite a bit as well as increased vacation and health benefits. The salary is not what Boeing paid but the 2 people I know that work there are happy with the deal they got and overall it is on par with the other plants in Wichita. And some employees elected to go with Boeing- either in Wichita or Seattle. And God only knows how many of them ended up down here but I did notice more than a few “Kansas SG” plates around Lockheed after Boeing deserted its Kansas employees.
Firing a govt worker is almost impossible without a union, and pretty much impossible with a union.
I knew a manager that spent two years trying to fire a govt worker, and he had all the documentation showing the employee needed firing, but the employee was a union member, and the manager finally gave up.
That probably wouldn’t include Union workers because as soon as the whistle blows, the parking lot empties like the air let out of a balloon. :)
Posted by: Kansas | September 03, 2007 at 10:05 PM
Close but no cigar?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-93.html#comment-81484537
Maybe that is not what you heard Kev, but that is the fact. The first offer was much better, but the union convinced its members to vote it down. I know too many Spirit and Boeing employees that told me about the two offers and it was also on the media. The second offer was decent, but the first offer was better. Spirit was trying to break the union, and successfully did so with the first offer.
Union’s gained so much control in the early 20th century, then got big, corrupt, and greedy.
Unions that continue to push a company to lower and lower profits, are surprised when the companies declare bankruptcy and shut their American factories.
That’s how the Union takes care of the little guy.
“”"GENEVA — American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.”"”
Is that supposed to be a point of pride? HEY look at us Americans!! We work more hours and give up our vacations and holidays for the bosses good!! We neglect our family, our health and our sanity to work 70 hours a week do the bosses will be pleased with us little piss ons! Ain’t we just somethin??
Where have all the Union bumper stickers gone?Long time passingWhere have all the Union bumper stickers gone?Long time agoWhere have all the Union bumper stickers gone?Free workers in factoriesevery oneWhen will they ever learn?When will they ever learn?
Unions HAD their place in American history. I believe and support that. But they are now contrary to the needs of the vast majority of American workers.
“”"Union’s gained so much control in the early 20th century, then got big, corrupt, and greedy.
Unions that continue to push a company to lower and lower profits, are surprised when the companies declare bankruptcy and shut their American factories.”"”
Non union: MCI, Enron. Bankrupt. Union: ATT, Avaya, Cingular, Southern Co. Making profit every quarter.
Non union: MCI, Enron. Bankrupt. Union: ATT, Avaya, Cingular, Southern Co. Making profit every quarter.
Posted by: Kev
That about raps up your 7% Kev.
The rest of America is not controlled by both a union and management.
We deserve better.Report: U.S. workers are most productive By BRADLEY S. KLAPPER, Associated Press Writer
Sun Sep 2, 11:08 PM ET
GENEVA – American workers stay longer in the office, at the factory or on the farm than their counterparts in Europe and most other rich nations, and they produce more per person over the year.
ADVERTISEMENTThey also get more done per hour than everyone but the Norwegians, according to a U.N. report released Monday, which said the United States “leads the world in labor productivity.”
The average U.S. worker produces $63,885 of wealth per year, more than their counterparts in all other countries, the International Labor Organization said in its report. Ireland comes in second at $55,986, followed by Luxembourg at $55,641, Belgium at $55,235 and France at $54,609.
The productivity figure is found by dividing the country’s gross domestic product by the number of people employed. The U.N. report is based on 2006 figures for many countries, or the most recent available.
Only part of the U.S. productivity growth, which has outpaced that of many other developed economies, can be explained by the longer hours Americans are putting in, the ILO said.
The U.S., according to the report, also beats all 27 nations in the European Union, Japan and Switzerland in the amount of wealth created per hour of work — a second key measure of productivity.
Norway, which is not an EU member, generates the most output per working hour, $37.99, a figure inflated by the country’s billions of dollars in oil exports and high prices for goods at home. The U.S. is second at $35.63, about a half dollar ahead of third-place France.
Seven years ago, French workers produced over a dollar more on average than their American counterparts. The country led the U.S. in hourly productivity from 1994 to 2003.
The U.S. employee put in an average 1,804 hours of work in 2006, the report said. That compared with 1,407.1 hours for the Norwegian worker and 1,564.4 for the French.
It pales, however, in comparison with the annual hours worked per person in Asia, where seven economies — South Korea, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia and Thailand — surpassed 2,200 average hours per worker. But those countries had lower productivity rates.
America’s increased productivity “has to do with the ICT (information and communication technologies) revolution, with the way the U.S. organizes companies, with the high level of competition in the country, with the extension of trade and investment abroad,” said Jose Manuel Salazar, the ILO’s head of employment.
The ILO report warned that the widening of the gap between leaders such as the U.S. and poorer nations has been even more dramatic.
Laborers from regions such as southeast Asia, Latin America and the Middle East have the potential to create more wealth but are being held back by a lack of investment in training, equipment and technology, the agency said.
In sub-Saharan Africa, workers are only about one-twelfth as productive as those in developed countries, the report said.
“The huge gap in productivity and wealth is cause for great concern,” ILO Director-General Juan Somavia said, adding that it was important to raise productivity levels of the lowest-paid workers in the world’s poorest countries.
China and other East Asian countries are catching up quickest with Western countries. Productivity in the region has doubled in the past decade and is accelerating faster than anywhere else, the report said.
But they still have a long way to go: Workers in East Asia are still only about one-fifth as productive as laborers in industrialized countries.
The vast differences among China’s sectors tell part of the story. Whereas a Chinese industrial worker produces $12,642 worth of output — almost eight times more than in 1980 — a laborer in the farm and fisheries sector contributes a paltry $910 to gross domestic product.
The difference is much less pronounced in the United States, where a manufacturing employee produced an unprecedented $104,606 of value in 2005. An American farm laborer, meanwhile, created $52,585 worth of output, down 10 percent from seven years ago, when U.S. agricultural productivity peaked.
http://www.goiam.org/content.cfm?cID=9219
Kansas Machinists to Divide $246 MillionNearly 4,000 members of Local 839 in Wichita, KS, will divide $246 million in cash and stock following the initial public offering (IPO) of Spirit AeroSystems stock on the New York Stock Exchange.
Eligible IAM members employed by Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, KS, will each receive $61,440 thanks to a unique Union Equity Program (UEP) negotiated by Machinists Union leaders following the sale of Boeing’s Wichita operations in 2005. IAM members formerly employed by Boeing ratified a new contract with Spirit in 2005 that included the UEP in exchange for nearly $200 million in wage and benefit modifications.
“The distribution of approximately $246 million represents a significant offset to the wage and benefit modifications that followed the sale of Boeing’s Wichita operations,” said Southern Territory GVP Bob Martinez. “Not only did we preserve jobs in the wake of a major corporate restructuring, we also negotiated terms that ensured our members would share in the success of the acquiring company.”
To limit the tax burden on members, the payout will take place in two parts. The cash portion of the distribution, approximately $34,556 or 56 percent of the total payout, will take place before the end of December 2006. The remaining $26,884 in stock awards will be made available in March of 2007.
“The benefit of this kind of equity sharing program extends far beyond IAM members and their families,” said District 70 President Steve Rooney. “Long after bills are paid and new vehicles are purchased, the local economy will continue to experience the long-term economic lift that only comes with high-value, high-wage jobs.”
And they were singing (union chorus), “Bye Bye miss American Pie”:
Delphi, the largest U.S. auto supplier, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection Oct. 8, citing high labor costs. Since then, foreign companies such as the India-based Sona Group have expressed interest in buying Delphi’s steering systems operations, which employ about 2,100 locally.
Are you suggesting Sprit Areosystems is not union? It is represented by the IAM
What happened was the union (IAM) went along with not letting the people in the first layoff have a right to vote. Boeing had also stated that unless the union membership went along with the sale, it would not go through. The Company renegged on that promise.The union recommended approval at the first vote and was booed overwhelmingly, and the first offer was rejected.
THIS IS WHY UNIONS SUPPORT FREE (I mean) SOCIALIZED HEALTH CARE:
Result of a Company-Union Partnership against the WorkersOn the very day that United Auto Workers leaders and company officials signed the final auto contracts, having ushered them through ratification votes at Chrysler, Ford & Visteon and GM & Delphi, one of the Detroit newspapers broke a story about significant changes in medical plans included in the contracts. Coverage under the comprehensive Blue Cross plan was eliminated, to be replaced by an as yet unorganized PPO (Preferred Provider Organization), the plan for which is still to be worked out by the auto companies, Blue Cross and UAW leaders. This drastic change will immediately affect 360,000 people. Under the old contracts, almost three quarters of retirees and varying percentages of active workers, depending on the company, were enrolled in comprehensive Blue Cross, along with their dependents.
Union Members Helped Save Delta Airlines: Airline now on way to profit!
http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2007-04-23-delta-1b-usat_N.htm
Union Members Helped Save Delta Airlines: Airline now on way to profit! Posted by: Kev
Only because the union sold out it’s membership:
Just last September, Grinstein announced plans to slash up to 7,000 jobs through 2006 and close the airline’s hub in Dallas. Earlier this month, Delta said it would cut 26 percent of its flights from its hub in Cincinnati, resulting in another 1,000 job cuts.
A year ago Delta obtained the agreement of the pilots union to extract $1 billion in wage and benefit cuts. This week, the airline asked for another round of cuts from the union.
Screw unions:
The Rath Packing Company (Rath) of Waterloo (Iowa) opened for business on November 24, 1891, on the Cedar River.
The years following World War II brought labor troubles. A 1948 strike at the Waterloo plant resulted in the death of a striking union member and riot. Iowa National Guard troops were called in to restore order. Holding firm, Rath management eventually outlasted the union in negotiations, but labor relations remained sour.
[edit] Decline of the companyThe 1960’s and 1970’s were difficult times for meat packing companies. Competition was fierce and the industry had become high volume, low margin. Profitability was hurt by a decline in per capita pork consumption beginning in 1960. By the mid 1970’s, Rath’s 50-year-old four-story plant was obsolete. The new model for packing houses called for single-level plants with continually moving automated disassembly lines. In addition, Rath’s workforce was predominantly middle-aged, older than the industry average for packing houses, and thus burdened with higher than average wage and benefit costs.
In 1980, Local 41 of the United Food and Commercial Workers Union which represented most of the labor force, negotiated a plan that, in exchange for wage and benefit concessions from the workers, gave them control of Rath’s board of directors.
The employee-owned Rath operated at a loss in 1981-1983. After a series of further financial setbacks, Rath ceased operations in 1985.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rath_Packing
I forgot the meat:
By the company’s fiftieth anniversary in 1941, the small regional packing house in Waterloo had grown into the nation’s single largest meatpacking facility with branch facilities in 12 states. By the end of World War II, Rath was the fifth largest meatpacker in the U.S.
So far no one has brought the violence union members due when nonunion members work while they strike.
Or, how unions coerce nonunion members to join the union.
In right to work states, some unions will not let nonunion members work.
Kev,
Spirit had the upper hand in the first stage of the contract and had an even better hand after the union rejected the first offer. You may have two friends that work at Spirit and like it, but they are in the minority. Most employees feel the union sold them out, and it did.
Maybe when you join a union and spend 16+ years seeing the union leadership screw over the union employees, then you will understand why people are so anti-union.
Mually ought to be ashamed, boeing hasn’t skipped a beat since his departure. That’s because the people who actually run day to day and year to year operations can carry on without the high visibility V.P.s, or CEO’s for that matter.AT&T Yahoo!Mail Yahoo! SearchSearch:Welcome, sdietrich@prodigy…[Sign Out, Member Center ]Finance HomeHelpFinance HelpAT&T HelpHome InvestingMarket OverviewMarket StatsStocksMutual FundsETFsBondsOptionsIndustriesCurrencyEducationNews & OpinionMarketsInvesting IdeasExpert AdviceSpecial EditionsCompany FinancesProvidersPersonal FinanceBanking & BudgetingCareer & WorkCollege & EducationFamily & HomeInsuranceLoansReal EstateRetirementTaxesHow-to GuidesGet QuotesSymbol LookupFinance Search
APUAW Members Speak Out About Strike VoteMonday September 3, 2:43 pm ET
By Tom Krisher, AP Auto Writer
UAW Strike Authorization Vote Offers Glimpse Into Workers’ Thoughts As Contract Deadline Nears
SALINE, Mich. (AP) — Ford Motor Co. has brought a lot of uncertainty into Gerald Williamson’s life.The factory where he works is on a list of plants slated to be sold or even closed, and like other workers, he’s had to give up part of his pay raises to help the company fund its huge retiree health care bill. So when it came time to vote to give union leaders the power to call a strike if contract talks go south, Williamson got some satisfaction last week out of casting his ballot in favor.
ADVERTISEMENT”To try to force us to make any more concessions, it’s unreasonable and we’re willing to shut them down,” said Williamson, 55, who works at a plant that makes instrument panels and other parts in Saline, about 40 miles west of Detroit.
Plenty of United Auto Workers members share his thoughts. At his plant, 99 percent approved the strike authorization. Voting nationwide wrapped up last Friday, but the final tally was not announced. Typically, though, strike authorizations are approved overwhelmingly.
With contracts between the union and Ford, General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC set to expire Sept. 14, UAW leaders have asked members during the past few weeks to authorize a strike. It’s standard procedure and it doesn’t mean that a work stoppage will occur.
Williamson, a 13-year Ford worker from Ypsilanti, says he doesn’t want a strike and he doesn’t think the company wants one either. But like many workers, he’s unhappy that he’s had to give up money when new Ford President and Chief Executive Alan Mulally is making millions.
“When you ask people to make concessions and they help out and chip in, then everyone has to make concessions,” Williamson said after voting on Wednesday.
Mulally’s compensation package was valued at $39.1 million during his four months on the job last year, according to an analysis of a Ford filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. Workers at many Detroit-area factories often refer to executive compensation when asked about concessions.
The package also bothers Bill Garner, 54, who voted in favor of a strike. He thinks the salaries of Mulally and other top Ford executives should be cut.
“If they were down more, I don’t think it would be near the issue it is now,” said Garner of Saline, who has seen only one strike in his 35 years with Ford.
When Mulally was asked last week about criticism of his compensation, he said that leadership counts.
“All the skills required to run a business are market-driven,” said Mulally, who was hired away from Boeing Co. last year to rescue the money-losing Ford.
All three Detroit-area automakers are seeking concessions from the UAW as contract talks progress behind closed doors. They point to what they say is around a $25-per-hour labor cost disadvantage to their prime Japanese competitors. A big chunk of that is the multi-billion-dollar long-term retiree health care obligation, which the companies want to unload by paying the UAW a lump sum so it can form a trust to pay the medical bills.
Led by Ford’s record $12.6 billion loss last year, the three Detroit automakers lost a collective $15 billion in 2006. Ford had to mortgage its factories to generate enough cash to stay in business.
The losses, brought on by high gas prices sending consumers away from Detroit’s trucks and sport utility vehicles, led to restructuring at all three automakers. Thousands of union workers left their companies under buyout or early retirement packages.
As part of that restructuring, Ford last year took the Saline plant and 16 others from its former parts arm, Visteon Corp., and placed it into a holding company for sale or closure.
Workers at Local 892 in Saline don’t know if they will have jobs or for whom they’ll be working in the future. They also don’t know if they’ll be part of whatever national contract the UAW negotiates.
Yet in Saline, many of the 1,300 hourly workers have some hope. Ford recently has been moving equipment into the plant to make interior parts for new vehicles, the workers say.
While most workers interviewed after voting last week said they would strike to get what they want, some fear the results.
“I would say this would be the worst time in Ford’s history to be on strike,” said Darryl Varney, 38, a worker from Belleville.
Some were skeptical of the UAW taking on retiree health care, while others said they needed more details.
Williamson said if Ford gets concessions this year, it will continue to ask for more, so the union should draw a line.
“They would look at that as the way to go,” he said. “Obviously they want to drive wages the cheapest.”
Dorothy Smith, a UAW Local 572 retiree who sat along the route of a Labor Day parade Monday in Detroit, said she had hoped labor leaders would use the parade to give some word on progress in the talks, but heard nothing.
“We want to compromise, but we want to be able to hold onto what we have,” said Smith, 65, who worked in maintenance for 20 years at GM’s former headquarters.
UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said as he left the parade that it provided a public chance to celebrate but not negotiate.
“This is an opportunity to come together as working men and women … and celebrate what workers have done for the country,” he said. “Negotiations are best done if they’re handled at the bargaining table, not in the media.”
AP Business Writer Jeff Karoub in Detroit contributed to this story.
Interestingly, the Union just recently sent out a letter in regard to the group grievance (the one that mysteriously disappeared) stating they found no grounds to pursue. Hell the grievance was two years old! An obvious attemp to strenthen the companies hand in the upcoming lawsuit.
Hard to be a succedssful meat packing plant when your process is obsolete, regardless of who is in control. The company should have been investing in modernizing their processes. Bet the CEO’s were handsomely compensated right through to the sale.
Because I was a low-level employee, I had to fight to get my union to represent me when a boss gave me an unjustified bad review. I had to threaten to use another union to get them before they agreed to help me. I had been a union member for almost six years. I had been warned when I joined that the union only helped the higher paid employees, but I told my co-workers I did not believe that. Seems I was wrong, and that does not include how they raised dues for the lower levels and decreased dues for the higher levels.
Worst thing about the unions is that you have to watch your representatives as closely as you watch the company. They will both serve their self interest.
The company should have been investing in modernizing their processes. Bet the CEO’s were handsomely compensated right through to the sale. Posted by: The Phantom
No argument from me on that. But you have to have capital to make investments. Everytime this company reported profits, the union went on strike for higher wages. Vicious cycle.
And as the son of one of the VP’s of this company, I can attest that my father lost everything too. His pension went to the national pension benefit guarantee corporation like everyone elses. It paid 20 cents on the dollar.
The CEO lost as much, if not more.Except of course, the final CEO was a labor president, who tried a union/company ownership deal. That lasts a whole three years. Every year operated at a loss. Finally creditors and judge had had enough.
Union leaders strongly supported NAFTA because “it would bring jobs to America”. My co-workers did not like it when I pointed out how jobs would go to Mexico and Canada under NAFTA. Now, those same union leaders hate NAFTA because what I warned them about came true. They won’t admit I was right and they were wrong.
My father worked for aircraft companies as I grew up. He never belonged to a union, even though he benefitted from unior efforts. He though unions were in cohoots with the man/company. I am deeply conflicted on what to think about this subject…
“unior” = union
As a final comment, a couple of personal experiences.
My father started off on the loading dock of a union plant. He used his intelligence and hard work to advance to high levels in the organization. My family lived in a small rural town. I grew up with the same kids from K-12. When it came time to get jobs, my friends found employment at the same plant. Dad may/may not have helped. Regardless, I was revolting from my parents and the establishment (teach your children well, their fathers hell sort of time). I went off to the service. Came back on leave (vacation) and had a few beers with my old friends. Remember I knew them from kindergarten. They stayed at my house and knew I had nothing growing up. The “plant” was going broke. One of my friends said, “I hear your dad took trips with company money to the Bahamas.” I asked him where he had heard such nonsense. He replied, “It was posted on the union bulletin board and specifically had your dads name in it.” It was all a lie. My closest friends BELIEVED it. We had all grown up poor together. But they BELIEVED the lie. I told them as much, but never ever spoke to them again after that night. And I remember police escorts/protection during strikes. To elementary school. I remember the threatening telephone calls. And we lived in a middle class neighborhood and didn’t have squat.
I also can proudly proclaim my union membership. During HS, I took a job at a grocery store. I started as a bag boy. The grocery store was union. The union stewart gave me every shitty job possible to force me to join the “union”. I was sixteen years old. I made, I think 1.85 an hour minimum wage. I knew from my life how I felt about unions. I didn’t need to belong as a teenager working part time. But the threats and pressure were too much. I joined the union. They took 15 dollars from every one of my part time pay checks. And for nothing. This chain of stores went broke and everyone lost their jobs. The union stewart always talked about my boss as a BAD GUY. I happened to like my boss and worked hard for him. The union stewart did everything he could to get us to NOT work hard for the boss. Not long after, I joined the service and split. Non union grocery stores now thrive there.
Bitter? Very much. Believe unions have a role today – not at all.
They are like the model T. They were great in their day. But they have served their day.
Have you people been brainwashed? Why would any work stick up for a CEO’s wages? You should be looking out for yourselves not the CEO. Unions help workers, working conditions improve, health insurance, cost of living raises, breaks, Holiday pay and vacations.
Like any organization, unions are subject to corruption (Teamsters, anyone?). But when you havc America turning into a state of wage slaves, some balance is needed. Yesss, we are so PRODUCTIVE, indeed!
A truly democratic union can be reformed from inside-out. You don’t really have that option with the company–at least not without the serious leverage a union provides.
In some cases you need big planners, and they won’t actualize their plans unless getting rich is likeley. For example, the Great Plains could not have been settled by Euro-Americans without railroads, except the northeast corner which had river-transport access. So, steel, coal and railroad titans merited the fruits of their imaginative visions and creative orchestrations.
On the far other end of the spectrum, today’s American CEOs who create corporate profits by transferring American workers’ jobs to China do no merit 8-9 figure salaries and stock packages.
Americans’ 5-fold greater productivity than Asian workers tells us that Americans aren’t lazy slobs who deserve to lose their jobs to far less productive Chinese.
The truth is, older workers get sick, and they retire, and there are big costs to provide healthcare in middle age and afterward, and a decent living after they are no longer producing.
But we’ve had a social contract for decades. Which has worked. Hiring young people overseas at pennies per hour, then abandoning them when they get old and sick in 30 years–and they too will get sick, disabled and become unable to work–is immoral sociopathic shysterism. That’s not corporate leadership worthy of mega salaries and stock packages, it is parasitic abuse of human beings both in China, and here (the outsource victims).
Kansas’s lowest-in-America minimum wage is sociopathic, because it is emblematic of a feudal ideology of people-DEVALUATION, the very thing that caused tens of millions of Europeans to flee their homelands for America.
Let’s consider: two of Kansas’s neighboring states raised their minimum wage above federal level. Kansas in stark contrast has a half-federal-level minimum wage.
This is almost an experimental proxy for no minimum wage, which some sociopaths want, under a sis-rah-boom claim it will BOOST THE AMERICAN ECONOMY. If anyone wants to see a real, practical refutation of this, go to Denver. Or Seattle, whose state has the highest minimum wage in the U.S. Then go to Wichita. Go to these cities’ restaurants.
The Sunflower plant is a prime example of this. Some “oh we’re so clever” types thought, “Let’s build an obsolete generator plant,” spewing pollution that would be blown over two-thirds of Kansas, and who cares what its poisons do to Kansans? People have to possess a sense of self worth and reject being abused by greedy people, in order for a good life to be experienced.
In the 1990s 60% of Kansas counties lost population. Others would have too, but for illegal immigration by desperate Latin American peasants. Maintaining population by lowering community living standards and community domestic product levels is not a community success strategy.
In 1970, Colorado had fewer people than Kansas. In just 37 years, it has become almost twice as populous. Does anybody care to ask why this has happened? The only part of Kansas with healthy growth is the northeast corner, connected to the Kansas City MO economy.
Actually, except for our Kansas City suburb belt, the rest of the state’s counties combined have one of America’s lowest population growth rates. Why? Because Kansas, for the most part, is not an attractive place, except to people who are already here and have extended families that provide a social anchor. The state’s worker-devaluing and abusive ethos is a major “ughh” turnoff to people who have choices.
Wichita leaders’ mantra that Wichita is Kansas’s largest city is recognized elsewhere as empty-talk blathering. The “big ideas” here are an arena and road-widening. Wow! Concrete pouring and asphalt laying. How inspired, and inspirational. It’s causing droves of cities’ leaders elsewhere to come here to learn from Wichita, and it’s causing droves of business leaders to relocate their headquarters to Wichita. Umm, actually not.
Wow, excellent post, MPS.
Amway,”Don’t worry about us disbanding the unions Tom. They only make up a tiny 7% of the American work force today. A whopping 12% if you include the mandatory membership of government workers.
They are a dying breed whose members do not follow the mantra to vote for the AFL/CIO candidates.”
Well, those who don’t understand union history have been setting the country up for a replay of all those events, including goons to beat and murder union members and organizers, strikes like we haven’t seen in 70yrs., illegals used as strikebreakers, and eventually companies going under.
The workers today think that all their benefits came from their altruistic employers. They have no idea what was sacrificed to abolish the 16 hr day and 6 day week for $1 a day in scrip that could only be spent in high-priced company stores and whorehouses. There are plenty of employers who would gladly return to those days, and the unions will have to start from scratch all over again. What we need are a few really good movies about labor organizing in the 1930’s to educate this generation of workers about what it took to get the decent jobs they have, and how easy it would be to lose them.
That was then Jed for some companies, not all.
Today’s successful companies know they must offer a competitive pay/benefits package with many paid days off – something that is now demanded by American workers. Companies have to do this to attract the best and brightest hardworking employees.
Long hours with OT pay? Nope, most companies don’t see that as cost effective anymore, at least not in the long-term.
Sure, there are periodic peaks in workflow cycles that require OT, but that is not the norm for most of the year.
If you are one of the best and brightest hardworking people out there, with a good skill set, you can write your own ticket. Now, you may have to relocate, but opportunities are there if you look around.
If you are not one of the best and brightest, don’t work hard, don’t have a good skill set, are not willing to relocate, then you better look for a union or the government to take care of you – cause you sure as H can’t take care of yourself.
Max,More and more of today’s companies have decided they can’t afford the best and brightest and are trying to make do with combining average joes or even illegals with all the motivational crap they’ve picked up at those $5,000-a-day seminars.
I think it was Sydney Harris that said that “The wonder of modern capitalism is not that it produces great management, but that so many companies can be so badly mismanaged and still survive.”
Jed, that may be true of some employers, but the smarter employers recognize the importance of having the best workers, and those companies are thriving more than the ones you are talking about. A study has shown that if you offer 20% more than the prevailing wage, then you get workers that are 100% more productive than you get at the prevailing wage. In today’s global economy, that is a huge edge.
Look at Walmart, it is losing share to Target. I dont know if Target is a better employer, but that must be doing something right that Walmart isnt.
Jed, FedEx is a perfect example. They involve employees in the management process.
Jed, FedEx is a perfect example. They involve employees in the management process.
Posted by: Hard worker | September 04, 2007 at 11:54 AM
OH, really? So did the employees decide to outsource their phone support?
HW,The key word here is smarter. I have worked for companies that got on well with their unions, never had a strike or other labor problems and were better off for it.Others (like Wal-Mart) treat their employees as expendable commodities and can’t see past the next quarter. I doubt that wising up is an option there, so they will probably go under and devastate local economies in the process.
Walmart should be seeing the handwriting on the wall since it is starting to do worse and Target is doing better.
To compete locally requires hiring and training and rewarding good employees. Companies are starting to see how expensive it is to constantly hire new people, between trainings and other direct costs.
Yes, some companies have not yet learned the lesson, but more companies have learned and are learning the lesson, and those that don’t will find themselves closing down.
Of the aircraft companies in town, only Cessna has consistenly been touted by many of its employees. I do not know Cessna or other aircraft’s policies, but Spirit, Boeing, Raytheon, and Bombardier’s employees are constantly complaining about their companies.
Good employees don’t stick with bad companies, or at least they change as quick as they can.
You should always talk with current employees before deciding whether or not to work for a company. It is best to do this when they are not at work, and to discuss it with a fairly large number of employees since some employees don’t like any company they work at (the whiners) or the other group that likes all their employers no matter how bad (the fan boys/girls).
You can tell a lot by looking at how the employees look and act when they leave work, without ever talking with them.
Walmart’s stockholders and board will eventually wise up, whether they want to or not. As Walmart continues to lose market share and their stock goes down in value, it will have an impact. It may take some time, but I believe it will happen. Consider the alternative. Walmart is the largest employer in the world at last count. If they go down, then we are looking at an economic disaster that could make Black October look like a summer picnic.