The “needing improvement” label that the No Child Left Behind law imposes on schools makes it sound as if the labeled schools are failing and all others are doing great. But that isn’t necessarily the case, as an Eagle news article Wednesday noted.
Most larger schools on the “bad list” are there because certain subgroups of students — such as special education students or students who speak English as a second language — didn’t make “adequate yearly progress” on achievement tests. But many smaller schools (which are most of the schools in Kansas) don’t have enough of these students to have to measure and grade them as separate subgroups. That’s not a fair comparison. The article also reported how Andover Central Middle School made the bad list because of a special education subgroup yet, overall, earned several awards for excellence. That’s not a failing school.
Meanwhile, the Lawrence Journal-World reported on a master’s thesis done by a former University of Kansas student who studied 20 Kansas high schools. He predicted that only one of those schools would be able to meet the 100 percent proficient mandate of NCLB by 2014 — and that would only happen if the school’s scores improved each year at a high level.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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57 Comments
I just cannot wait to see the SPIN mps and all of the other “public schools are broken” crowd put on this fact.
Undoubtedly, we will be faced with a lengthy diatribe about how blah, blah, blah…………..
This article only helps prove my assertion the NCLB was never designed to help students, only set all community schools up for failure. When the system appears “failed”, then alternatives more palatable to the opponents (like vouchers) can be forced on the public. Yep, that’s where I want MY tax dollars to go, right into the pockets of someone who is running a “come to MY school scam (wink, wink, nod, nod)”Leave education to the professionals. If you are unhappy with the present system, do what all good americans do, vote.
It would be a total disater, but I’m weak and almost ready to turn education over to parents.
I have no kids in school, so why should I subsidize public education or vouchers for private schools? (I know why I should, but the anti-public-education crowd has worn me down.)
So let’s cut taxes and stop funding all education! Leave it to the parents. Repeal truancy laws and let the streets get filled with drop-outs and let’s see just how long it’ll take to turn America into Calcutta. You know, the Libertarian dream state.
When the goal was to assure all high school graduates had a basic mastery of a core of knowledge, a lot of kids couldn’t hack it and dropped out. When the goal was to keep kids in school, the ultimate standards of education eroded, but at least kids stuck to it and got the diploma.
Educators face two diametrically-opposed goals and do their best to find a balance. They’re in the crossfire of a political party that that thinks George WMD Bush is a great political leader. (And/or, someone you’d like to have a beer with.)
Enemies of public education probably have earned the right to screw up education and reap the consequences of their ignorance.
If conservatives were to face the results of what they advocate, they might get a clue.
Education is a priviledge not a right. Kids if your having a tough time in school or simply not interested please dropout. If you dropout then resources could be redirected to the motivated students. Motivated hardworking students should be rewarded, held in high regard as they are the future of this country.
If you’ve ever had a child in sped, you’d know how the schools seem to do everything in their power to help these kids to NOT make progress. And quite frankly, we who have disabled kids are tired of our kids being blamed for the school’s lack of willingness to do their job. They know they can just throw up this excuse and get away with it.
I live in a very small district and my district doesn’t count the disabled kids.
In my daughter’s IEP, I brought a list of strategies for helping her. About halfway through the year, I ended up getting into it with one of her teachers. He claimed he never saw her IEP, didn’t know about the strategies. So tell me, what good is an IEP if the teachers won’t even read them and know how to work with the goals in the IEP? Conversely, I had one of the most awesome middle school teachers for her ever…and that teacher was so good, that she called me and realized my daughter was getting ready to crash and burn because SHE DID read her IEP, and knew what to look for.
My son, who all of you should know is autistic….one of the strategies brought up to work with him to get him to focus was to allow him to ’stim’ on a cush ball. (This is a tried and true method to help auties focus). His teacher last had an absolute fit, saying ‘if we do it for him…then we have to do it for the rest of the kids”. BULL. If a kid has a wheelchair, that doesn’t mean all the other kids get wheelchairs too. His teacher THIS year actually offered it, because she’s had years of SPED teaching experience. It wasn’t a problem for her, but the other teacher wasn’t willing to do anything extra for him than for her other students- apparently it was easier for her to say ’sit down, sit down, sit down, pay attention…as if that works. Imagine, if I’m arguing over a cush ball, what happens when I ask for a larger intervention? IEP means INDIVIDUALIZED education program.
ALL kids are the future of this country. ALL kids have the ability to be motivated if you don’t just focus on the ones who are easier to deal with.
One of these days, my autistic child may be the next Einstein. Many of the techy world have traits of Asperger’s…imagine if the world gave up on all of them in school.
Public educators need to look at their own failure to maintain public education as a viable institution. All education institutions can be viewed as organic, living entities. Public education as we know it, invented as a hand maiden to the Industrialization, is old and worn out. It’s kind of like my grandfather who was maintained by his company (he was a top manager and close friend of the founder), despite his inability to keep up with change. The founder passed away, and the company was willed to two business-schooled sons in law who felt they needed to transform the company, which included bringing in other university managers.
My grandfather, viewing the company as satisfactorily profitable within its traditional operational parameters, and having an amazing intuitive knack for running his division, including great people skills and operations planning expertise gained through decades of experience, did not want to learn the new formal data-management and science-driven production procedures that the young owners insisted on. He resisted their plan to consolidate divisions, which imposed a need for the combined-division leader to possess knowledge my grandfather had, and knowledge he did not have.
Had he been in his 20’s, rather than his 50’s, my grandfather probably could have adapted. But anyone of his age, in his senior position, had a complex mental map, and it was impossible to incrementally adust it to meet a radically new agenda. The new agenda incorporated concepts that were fundamentally different from almost everything he knew.
He was given diminishing responsibilities and authority. The young owners felt they were doing right by him to honor and show respect for his vital past contributions in the company’s creation and subsequent success, so they reassigned him rather than terminate him. Then a heart attack at age 60 created a justifiable reason for him to retire on his own initiative, and save face.
The young owners, of note, didn’t foolishly try to turn the company upside down the day after the will was read. They had been working in the company for several years, being groomed for eventual succession, although the founder’s death at age 55 suddenly transferred ownership duties onto the young men’s shoulders far earlier than had been anticipated. Instead of rising to top-tier executive positions in their 40’s, it happened in their late 20’s.
Upon being named the new owners, they took President and Vice-President titles, but rather than implementing immediate large-scale change, they competently mapped out a multi-year series of strategic initiatives. These worked, the company grew healthily. The new owners did not have the sheer entrepreneurial genius of their 8th-grade-educated father-in-law, but they were very competent in running a corporation that had operations in two states.
Public education has a wealth of knowledge accumulated for over a century. The problem is, that knowledge has, over the past four decades, proven to be progressively inadequate, even with new-knowledge accumulation, because what it can absorb must “fit” very old paradigms.
Schools’ retention of not-well-performing senior teachers, in honor of twenty-plus years of service, is misguided. Children are suffering adverse consequences. Suppose you have a lot of elementary teachers who are very good, and love, teaching reading, writing and social studies. But math and science not their forte. Which is what we have.
You can try to develop “expert designed” curricula and teaching materials to compensate for the teachers’ lack of fundamental intuitive understanding and interest in math and science, but this is doomed to fail. Which it has.
You can alternatively hire math and science specialists, and this has been tried in limited instances, but if you want to retain the traditional elementary teachers, and not trip-up children, all public schools must have math and science specialists. To not do this is to devalue and impair the education of the public, which is anti-public-education.
It may–would arguably be–necessary to pay higher salaries to math and science specialists than to teachers of language arts and social studies. We have a situation in which inadequate math and science instruction has caused only a tiny minority of students to master these subjects, and our economy pays handsomely to capture them. This is the law of supply and demand.
Schools CANNOT say, “Look, we don’t care if we produce few math-and-science-knowledgeable graduates, we are not paying special salaries to lure them back to teach the next generation. Children will just have to take whatever we give them.” This is an anti-public-education ethos.You have members of the public, children and competent would-be teachers, who can be matched up. This is doable. But “the system” refuses to enact the plain-face-obvious measure to make this happen.
Failure to weed out non-contributorsAP C
Schools have some people who just aren’t contributing. Some were marginal from day one, but got tenure in a teacher-shortage condition. Some were adequate at one time, but got burned out, and started counting down the years to their retirement. What does their retention cost children, the young people whom we are paying thousands of dollars annually, to be educated?
I want to talk about Wichita-area schools’ failure to offer very-high-level math and science courses. There is two AP calculus courses that are increasingly being taken and completed by 11th graders, and even 10th graders. These students subsequently take calculus-based AP Physics C in 12th grade, or even 11th.
Who here has the authorization to say, “Wichita’s best-and-brightest students don’t need this high-falootin stuff. We don’t have to offer these advanced-education opportunities here, and we are not going to.”
In Oklahoma, several high schools are offering these courses. Under Title I, which mandates provision for “special education”, it could be argued in federal court that highly gifted children in Wichita are being denied their rights to appropriate special education services.
But a state-court claim can be asserted against local schools for failing to offer programs that are already in place within Kansas. Shawnee Mission East offers Physics C.
You cannot say, “They’re a rich district, and can do things we can’t here.” Why? Because,
A. Kansas courts have precluded Shawnee Mission from exercising higher-than-Wichita per-capita-student expenditures;
B. There is no legal doctrine that provides for a higher level of high school education for some students if they live in affluent communities than students of less affluent communities are entitled to.
C. Wichita’s economy is critically dependent on aviation, a physics-based industry.
Wichita educators cannot say, “Our farm-based economy has no need for any students to study advanced physics.”
I would argue, if I were representing plaintiffs, the Kansas Department of Education is required to provide equal and equitable science education opportunities to Kansas students, no matter what in which community or district they reside.
Ultimately this kind of change requires people who have “standing” to mount a challenge. As a non-district-residing person, whose own children are working, in graduate school, and college, I don’t have standing. But gifted children who are enrolled in district schools do have standing. Then people without standing like VT and myself can file amicus curiae briefs, for the court to consider.
eulb llort, the Kansas Supreme Court has held that, under the Kansas Constitution, access to public education is a right enjoyed by all Kansas school-age children.
MPS points out, rightly, that with respect to the “high end” students, Kansas districts in general do not allow these students to progress by curriculum offerings in the public high schools. To the extent these high end students have been identified as “gifted”, and given that Kansas has included gifted education within Special Ed, there does seem to be a statutory basis for parents of such students to mount a court challenge.
Look, we as parents took the step to enroll our elder at WSU for Calc II and Calc III (as well as French, and we enrolled our younger at WSU for French as well, both as “high school guests”), paid the tuition and both received college credit therefor. With respect to the elder, that should not have been needed for Calc II, IMHO; there should be offered the second AP calc course (BC) in all high schools to meet the needs of students such as she. I know that she was more of a rarity than I see now; there would have been, at NEMHS her senior year, only two students in the Calc BC course, ceteris paribus, but as I look at the growing number of students at the same HS taking AP calc AB as 11th graders, there seems to me to be a need for the BC course to be offered as well at the HIGH SCHOOL. Similar arguments may be offered for the students who are capable of taking the AP Physics C course MPS describes.
With all that said, I also want to comment on the so-called “average” student who does not have an IEP. It is my firm opinion that these are the ones being caught in a no-win situation. They have no right under any statute to complain if their needs aren’t being met, they have to take what is offered. While P_Mom is irked by her district’s treatment of her children, both special ed students from her posts, at least she and the children have rights under the special ed statutes that might be asserted; the “average” students does not. And, P_Mom, as the parent of two students who under today’s educational vernacular were “gifted” (a term I despise), I can tell you that SOME teachers (a minority, thank goodness) determined it was easier to not deal with them rather than some of their other classmates. It flows both ways.
To be very clear, here; I feel that each student has a right to an education in Kansas in a public school that allows each student the access to an education which may, should the student pursue the same in good faith, allow the maximization of his/her academic potential. I am also quite aware that this is not going to happen for all; simple economics tell us that it isn’t efficient to have a class for one or two students when there are overcrowded classrooms resulting in 30+ students being, e.g., in an Algebra I section, or an English 10 section, etc.
The economic efficiency discussed above lends weight to the efforts of many, now apparently mandated by the legislature last session, to have a “Math and Science” academy. While there may be only one or two students in a particular school who would benefit from this higher level of instruction, state-wide there are likely sufficient numbers to make such a viable institution. From my scan of the legislation, the first year’s enrollment will be limited to 40, with the BOR authorized to increase the second year’s enrollment of new students to 80. A good start; now legislature, fund the darned thing and let’s get it going.
Posted by: eulb llort |
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eulb llort = blue troll
“Constitution of the State of KansasArticle 6.–EDUCATION§ 1: Schools and related institutions and activities. The legislature shall provide for intellectual, educational, vocational and scientific improvement by establishing and maintaining public schools, educational institutions and related activities which may be organized and changed in such manner as may be provided by law.”
Oh, and here’s one for you voucher freaks:
“(c) No religious sect or sects shall control any part of the public educational funds.”
http://www.kslib.info/ref/constitution/art6.html
“Competition” between schools implies winners and losers. If we take that blase attitude toward our children’s futures, then we ALL lose.
Some 40+ years ago, Wichita had a good “gifted” program. It began in 1959, but I don’t know how long it lasted. I’d be very interested to understand what happened to it and why.
Rox, 259 still has a gifted program. As we’ve been away from it for a while, I don’t know how well it’s doing. I’ve heard there is a bit of resistance in bringing students into the program, but this is merely hearsay, not based upon any facts of my personal knowledge.
VT, I’ve been away from USD 259 for a while, too. ;) I also don’t know what happened to those in that initial program or how the program was extended into the upper grades. I do understand that there are alternatives now that weren’t there then. Or at least I’m beginning to.
But it seems the current program isn’t working as well as it should. Change is good. Sometimes, though, it isn’t the right change.
Then, too, education changes, in general, aren’t working as well as they should. It seems to go from helping one area, then another, with little gain in any. All students should be considered, and NCLB doesn’t address that at all. In fact, it does the opposite.
Rox, It has changed a lot in the years since! Speaking ONLY of gifed at the elementary level, back in 1967 (or close) it went from four attendance areas in the city with only 20 children eligible in each grade 4 – 6 (total of 240 max. students) to several more attendance centers but still only those three grades. Then it morphed further and included the lower grades, wasn’t necessarily self-contained, introduced an extra class for those designated “gifted” at the junior and senior highs.
And, somewhere along the line it became more difficult to have your child evaluated. Or that may not be a fair statement. Maybe parents became aware of the program and made the request for evaluation instead of the school approaching the parents. Maybe too many requested evaluations didn’t identify the child as gifted, maybe too few people were adequately trained in recognizing those who needed special ed. I’m sure there were many reasons.
And the gifted program isn’t necessarily the best placement even for those identified as such. Individuals vary as do their paths to success.
Today, at the elementary level, there are a few designated schools with self-contained gifted programs and a child can go to gifted resource only for say language arts or math or… and be in the regular classroom the balance of the school day.
I haven’t had any personal experience with the gifted program at the junior high (now middle school) and high school levels since around 1990. I have three grandsons who have been or are currently in the IB program at East (one has graduated with his IB diploma). And, they have IEPs as they were earlier identified as gifted but the IB program has been a place they’ve found challenges and successes. It is a great program!
Disclaimer: Remember I’m only a grandma looking in from the outside. Any errors I’ve made I welcome someone who really knows making corrections. I should have kept reading and not tried to jump in when I don’t have sure facts to offer. I’ll go back to listening.
Vaughn & Rox,
Anecdotally, only, my understanding was that 259 was identifying more students when compared to other districts for all special ed services and they tried to stiffen the criteria for getting into these classes so that rate of identification here was closer to national or state averages.
I have heard from my few insider contacts that there was a concern than minority male children were being too easily identified as needing special education services.
I appreciate 259’s efforts and all, but I think their approach fails to take into consideration that the district services as a magnet for people in all areas of Kansas. People will move here to take advantage of the special education services available here, that are not available elsewhere in the state.
Linda, keep conversing; someone will tell both of us how the program works now, when (I at least) make an error.
I agree that the gifted program is not always the best “place” to be even for those so identified. I think the IB program is a wonderful program for the right students. There are some issues with it that MPS has identified in posts to earlier threads that do exist, but for the right students….
Just like I think the NEMHS magnet program(s) are for the most part good choices for many students. Again, there are issues with it with which I’ve some familiarity, that are worked on annually to make the overall experience better.
On gifted, you have apparently heard some of the same things I have about the numbers dropping, etc. I’ve been told by a few parents that the lower level (elementary or middle) school which was attended by their students weren’t too enthused about evaluation of these students. I’m not casting aspersions here, as I suspect there are many who consider their students the second coming of Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, Bertrand Russell, etc., that have had evals done which showed these students didn’t meet the criteria necessary for the identification, which evals took time, tied up resources, etc. However, given the funding formula for schools, it would seem the district, as it receives some “extra money” for those identified as gifted, would be receptive to increasing the numbers.
district “services” – should be “serves”
Steven, I’ve heard the same about the general special education situation in 259 as well. I’m sure this bleeds over into the gifted identification process as well. What I’ve also heard is that students are coming from “out of district” already id’d for Special Ed services into 259, in light of the services available here, some of whom are encouraged (the parents, that is) to make the move by the home district as a way of shifting expense, etc., the home district does not want to or cannot incur to provide the needed services. Again, no hard facts, just hearsay, etc.
“Competition” between schools implies winners and losers. If we take that blase attitude toward our children’s futures, then we ALL lose.
We already have competition with winners and losers. If not, then why do many parents fight to keep their children out of one school and into another? It is because they know their children would get a poorer education at the first school and a better education at the other school.
The system is broken, and typical of a monopoly has its defenders. There are good schools out there and good teachers, but they are a minority. Why do new teachers leave after seven years and not come back to teaching if the system is as good as some people are claiming? If vouchers are so bad, then give them a chance to prove it. If they are so bad, then they will fail. If they are not, then they will succeed and we all benefit. I see too many parents moving out of district if they can afford it to believe that Wichita has such a great school system.
No matter how a child might be identified or what school is attended, parents have a responsibility to ensure each child is being challenged, is achieving some success and learning to learn. It’s still our child and our responsibility, but thankfully we have the opportunity to share that responsibility with a great bunch of educators. Communicate, communicate – with your child, with your child’s teacher(s).
parents have a responsibility
parent’s responsibilityparents
Linda I agree it is the parents responsibility, but how many parents do it? Very few. I have seen too many excuses made for the rest of the parents. The good parents do communicate with their children and teachers. They also make wise education choices, whether it is a public school or a private school choice. The typical parent takes what the school district gives them and their children pay the price. We as a society also pay that price. I saw a study within the last few years where high school dropouts were increasing among the better students. It is understandable why the poorer students would drop out, but the better students?
I meant parents’ but since so many other people here have grammar and spelling issues, that’s life. I have lost count of how many times I see some one going after a person’s spelling and ignoring their point. At times, a few people use it to minimize the person’s point.
Chavez, etc., some of the moving out of the district is due to (unfortunately) “white flight”, IMO. As to competition among schools, yes, it exists, for the reasons you assert. Thus, the success of certain magnet and other alternative programs.
As posted in the preceding year at various times, I think vouchers, all in all, are a bad idea, offer false hope to many, and won’t cure the problems that any district, but in particular, any urban district faces daily.
One example of false hope created by vouchers: The voucher is in the base per pupil state aid amount (I believe ~$5400). The tuition at the private school chosen is $7250. The parents cannot afford the delta. What benefit has the voucher been? Another example: the voucher is in the same amount, but in this case the parents can afford the delta. The student does not meet the academic admissions criteria of the chosen private school, which is not required to admit all comers to receive the voucher amount. What benefit has the voucher been in this case?
259 seems to act as though the identification of gifted kids is a net loser for them. They may get more money for so identified kids, but this may not be enough to cover the costs of extra staff and benefits for same.
Luckily for 259 kids there are many options for meeting their needs. So, in spite of any zeitgiest that is being fretted about in the downtown offices, kids seem to be able to get what they need. This latter more than makes up for my experience that 259 can be very bureaucratic in the most unpleasant sense of that word.
On the better students dropping out; can we say “boredom”?
“This latter more than makes up for my experience that 259 can be very bureaucratic in the most unpleasant sense of that word.” Steven, we are in total agreement on this point.
Why are they successful in other countries if they don’t work? As to white flight, I know many successful minority parents that are also leaving, so I don’t see white flight as a big issue. Even if were white flight why does that change the equation? For now, whites are the majority at least until 2050 according to estimates. Parents of any race do not move out of district and say it is because the school system they are moving to is a better district if the current school system is that good here. At almost 10K per student, the system is not working. The states that spend the most money per student are not doing any better than the other states so increased spending is not the answer.
I doubt I will change your mind, and I doubt you will change my mind unless you can show unbiased proof that vouchers do not work.
Your examples are reasonable, but that is only part of the picture.
“One example of false hope created by vouchers: The voucher is in the base per pupil state aid amount (I believe ~$5400). The tuition at the private school chosen is $7250. The parents cannot afford the delta. What benefit has the voucher been?”
Vaughn,Time for a cynicism check (meaning you could do with an increased dose of same), what has the voucher accomplished?, it provided relatively weatlhy people who can already afford private schools with a cost break. Looking after the base you know – mission accoplished.
On the better students dropping out; can we say “boredom”?
Probably true in the vast majority of cases, but if the school system was better they would not be bored. I also blame the parents and the children in these instances. I have not seen the stats, but it would be interesting to compare drop out and graduation rates for public vs. private schools, both for better students and the general population.
Steven, I think the bureaucracy of 259 is experienced as much, or more, by teachers. It’s one of the reasons 259 has a low retention rate.
I’ve never made it a secret that I am not a fan of Winston Brooks. I don’t think he brings anything to the table and is poorly prepared to lead this large a district through the difficulties of NCLB. Due both to the size of 259 and that law I think is stupid and ruining public education (or at least giving that perception) a better-prepared and more visionary leader is necessary.
it provided relatively weatlhy people who can already afford private schools with a cost break. Looking after the base you know – mission accoplished.
Poor and middle income people would have access to private schools, not just rich people. Rich people whose children did not measure up to private school admissions policies would be denied, the same as other income groups.
If you consider that an issue, then limit by income who qualifies for vouchers. If you make more than X dollars, then you either qualify for a smaller voucher or no voucher.
Steven! You said everything I believe about the voucher system and you said it well!
Steven, a fact I have at other times and places, freely acknowledged. Just like the whining, if you will, about “need based” financial aid not being available to students whose parents can jolly well afford the cost of attendance at any school to which the offspring is admitted at the college level.
Chavez, etc., yes, we’ll not change each other’s minds on this. Again, the ~10K per student is a simplistic computation of the average, without taking into account some of the total budget $$ not being available to all students, e.g., special ed funding, transportation. I appreciate your position on this issue; it is reasonably stated, and while I may disagree with you, I understand from where you are coming.
My speculation on why vouchers may be successful in other countries where the same have been tried; the relative homogeneity of the student population, or the “tracking” used by other countries to assign the level of education to be received, university admissions track for the “best and brightest”, vocational education for others.
Linda, I thought we should have dumped Brooks when he was looking to leave and not had private donations to keep him. He has been accused of being a dictator and ignoring many suggestions made to him, but I have only heard that from staff that may or may not like him.
VT I have a whole other take on this issue. When I look at the large amount of money spent on busing in Wichita I cringe. When I see the young children in our neighborhood out before daylight waiting for a bus to take them across town when we have a neighborhood school 4 blocks away I cringe. My son bought a home in another district because he didn’t want to see his kids caught in this system.
I am not racist and have no problem with promoting diversity in the classrooms but I just don’t see the value of this. Our neighborhood is about 30% black, 20% Asian and the rest hispanic and caucasion.
No educational value is gained by busing kids over 2 hours a day. Administrators need to take a close look at this program. If that money were used to educate how could it be best applied. With the magnet schools we have a partial solution it just doesn’t go far enough. I think vouchers might be the answer to a certain extent.
I too struggled with this when my children were in school in Oklahoma. They went to a neighborhood school and the parents were much more involved with the schools and extra programs. We miss out on that with busing.
No child was moved out of their class entirely but were offered acelerated math, literature, reading, etc.. This is similar to the program my granddaughter is in in Derby this year.
I’m not for scrapping the entire system but we can no longer afford to drive some of our brightest and our lower achievers out because the ‘program’ doesn’t meet their needs.
A doctor we took our middle son to over 30 years ago because he teacher taught he was ADHS told us his teacher was not creative enough to teach children like him. We put him in what was then called ‘progressive’ schools and he has done great ever since. No medication was needed.
He and other in his class were allowed to progress at their own pace. The slowest wasn’t pushed past their learning ability and the smartest weren’t held back with the slowest in the class.
Think what could happen if teachers had small enough classes to handle students separately and not as a unit. With the extra money that nows goes into bussing this could be achieved.
Just my take on it in MOHO.
Chavez, etc., it would seem to me that limiting the vouchers as you suggest might have some constitutional issues.
On tracking private vs. public school dropout problems; this sounds like a good idea, but the availability of private school data on this point might well be limited or nonexistent unless said private school is state accredited, and files the mandated reports with the state DOE under a system called KIDS. I do know that under KIDS, if a school which must report the required information doesn’t know where a student transfers or goes if s/he doesn’t return to the reporting school for the next academic year, there is one option (not that familiar with the system) that seems to fairly describe the situation that is treated as a drop-out by the state, but if another option is selected, the student is not treated as a drop-out; thus, even these data are suspect.
And Steven, how’s this for a cynicism check; the tuition in the private schools increases to the normal tuition + the voucher amount, thereby eliminating from the pool those who couldn’t afford the base tuition from the outset.
Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | September 14, 2007 at 12:49 PM
ksgrm, the busing thing is a serious issue. However, until the district can negotiate its way out from under the consent order from the 1970s, this factor of busing will continue.
According to the district, busing for deseg purposes is a small part of the total number of students bused; the greater number of students who are bused are 1) special ed; 2) attending a magnet school and are entitled thereto due to distance; 3) live more than 2.5 miles from the school attended; or 4) cannot walk or otherwise travel by bicycle, etc. to school due to hazardous conditions.
From my limited knowledge of the school budgeting process, while included in the total budget, transportation money is a separate fund and does not come from the base per pupil aid figure; in other words, this is additional funding over and above that allocated to the “general fund”, and if all busing was eliminated for whatever reason, the money spent on transportation would not automatically be available for the “general education” fund. It would need to be so allocated, in whole or in part, by the legislature.
259 does have a gifted program. How “good” it is depends on the particular teacher, facilitator, and school building you happen to be in. Our daughter is a Senior and we struggled with her 3rd grade teacher to have her tested. The teacher felt that she was not gifted because if she finished her work early she did not cause problems in class but simply read a book. Therefore if she wasn’t hyperactive she could not possibly be gifted. This is the logic some teachers have. We pressed on and spoke with her principal who immediately scheduled her testing. Sure enough she tested in the gifted range and warranted an IEP to keep her challenged. Her IEP at the grade school level was a joke! We had trouble getting the teachers to assign her enrichment work above and beyond her normal assignments that would meet the guidelines in her IEP. We had to take the lead and challenge her at home. Thankfully, my husband is a teacher and he was well equipped to find resources to challenge her.
Middle school was a little easier due to the fact that we had 7 teachers a day rather than 1. Each teacher was a little different, some were exceptional, and others lets just say were not.
I highly recommend staying away from the high school gifted program! She wasted 3 years in a gifted English class and is now behind in AP English as a Senior. She was able to take all honors classes starting her Freshman year and those were more beneficial than the gifted class. All of her teachers are aware of her IEP and do challenge her on a daily basis. She has taken AP classes and dual credit classes and will enter college with several hours under her belt.
I am not sure that the sped program is “good” or “bad. It depends on each individual experience. I do agree that it gives students a little more on an advantage when it comes to getting their needs met. We have a son who is in regular ed with no IEP. We have to literally throw a fit to have teachers pay attention to the fact that he is bored. We have not had him tested for gifted because we are not sure that it is worth the frustration that comes with enforcing the IEP as a parent. Also, while he is very bright he just does not have the same academic drive that his sister has. He is in middle school and we try to keep him busy with independant enrichment activities. He will soon be in high school and honors classes will be available to him just as they were for his sister.
They will both be fine and will make great achievements. They are both motivated and we encourage them to always do their best. A good support system is the key to a successful education. The responsibility for successful education cannot and should not be that of the government it should be the responsibility of the student. When a student hungers for knowledge they will seek it out and when they see success they will strive to gain it again and again. It was once said that “edcation is not to teach our children what to think but how to think” (will have to look up the reference to tell you who said it).
Teachers should facilitate learning and encourage further study. Students should consider it a privilege to learn. Not all knowledge can be gained in school, equipping students with the means to think transforms the world into a classroom where exploration can lead to great ideas.
I guess there are no easy answers. My only other suggestion would be to cut the dead wood in admin and focus that on improving the classroom situations.
One of my grandsons had his birth date selected in the busing lottery (this all several years ago!) so my daughter visited the school he would be bused to and found it to be a place full of opportunities and extras! Ended up not only sending him but two brothers chose to transfer also. And the one whose birth date was chosen finished his elementary years at that school voluntarily. Diversity is so valuable. Often when we get past our initial reaction and take time to investigate we find more than we knew to be.
We know busing will decrease in 259 as soon as we can get schools built to handle populations. I think we will lose some benefits when that happens.
sissyict, thank you for your input into the discussion. I agree with your observations concerning the gifted facilitator and faculty. I wonder, in many cases, if the “gifted” tag really means all that much in the high school environment, other than the availability of an IEP to lean on in certain situations.
And, how could anyone argue with your concluding paragraph? :-)
the relative homogeneity of the student population,
Europe does not have this issue as much as it used to. The growing number of non Europeans is happening due to increased immigration of non-Europeans and the larger birth rates of non-Europeans vs. the declining birth rates of Europeans. I don’t remember the dates but I saw a study where nonnative Europeans would outnumber Europeans in Europe and Muslims would outnumber non Muslims because a lot of the immigrants were Muslim. In some of the non European countries, the racial mix is even more pronounced.
On the tracking issue, each state in this country gets to devise its own tracking on some things and the disparity is appalling. Some of the Kansas standards are a lot lower than reasonable. I remember when California instituted some major educational reforms a while back, the teacher unions fought it tooth and nail. The world did not end, and some needed changes and improvements happened. When those same changes have been talked about in Kansas, the teacher unions fight it and so far have won.
Public schools need to make changes, and whether vouchers are the way to go or not, something needs to happen. Our children cannot compete on the global stage, and we used to be able to. We need to see what worked 40+ years ago where we could compete. Bring back the parts of that system that worked and do away with the parts of the current system that do not work. When we do that, you will see many parents taking their children out of private schools and bringing them back to public schools.
On the constitutional issues, it might. However, we limit who gets free and reduced lunches based on income. We limit food stamps, EIC, Section 8 housing, and a whole list of other programs based on income levels.
The bussing is a good point. I am sometimes out at 630 in the morning and see children waiting on busses. There are plenty of other areas that could be cut as well. When we graduate children that are functionally unable to read and write at a 6th grade level, but can do many other things that will not get them a job, we are doing the children and our society a disservice.
In college and high schools, not sure about lower grades, grade inflation is becoming the norm. Students being accepted at public and private colleges and universities that cannot do simple things they should have learned by elementary or middle school.
“I guess there are no easy answers. My only other suggestion would be to cut the dead wood in admin and focus that on improving the classroom situations.”
I would go a step further and say cut the deadwood in teachers and programs. We would not need another bond issue in addition to the current one. If anyone in the admin area grasped how things worked, the last bond issue could have been avoided, but instead we are spending 480+ million to borrow 280+ million.
Linda, I grew up in a racial diverse school, but not all racially diverse schools are the same as your experience and mine. Someone above mentioned the issue of lack of participation from parents who live outside the local school area and this is a valid point.
I have an appointment on the other side of town and must hurry. Hope I can rejoin you good folks and this good talk when I return.
I think we could solve the world’s problems given enough time. lol ;-)
Chavez etc., you and I are in agreement on much of what you posted in your 1:11 PM post. The system needs fixing; there is little doubt in my mind that a system essentially designed to meet the needs of an industrializing society in the 1920s, preparing students to work in a factory on an assembly line, does not serve us well in the early 21st century. Some progress is being made, but it’s too slow for my tastes.
I agree that Kansas standards are too low in many areas. I’m not clear on what you think in this area, but some of my thoughts involve the laughable “qualified admissions” process for Regents’ schools; the equally laughable eligibility “requirements” of KSHSAA; my feeling that at least at the high school level, the standards sought to be measured by the state assessments.
Grade inflation is why, with all due respect to teachers, there needs to be a third party accountability piece in measuring student achievement. I know social promotion is a big issue for many, including me; I’ve read studies that indicate “holding a student back” doesn’t do any good after a point (grade 3?), but for the life of me, it is not apparent why this is.
By “tracking”, I was referring to the practice in most other industrialized countries to determine students who become eligible for a university study preparation curriculum vs. a vocational curriculum, e.g. We, as a country, don’t do this.
Yes, there are many things that are means-tested. But, given the Kansas Supreme Court opinion that finds a right to education exists under the state Constitution, I’m hard-pressed to determine how means testing in a school voucher situation could be implemented in a constitutional manner.
If you see school children waiting for a bus at 6:30 a.m., I speculate they are, for the most part, enrolled at a magnet school.
I will dissent on the need for the bond issue. Having seen the science labs, classrooms, and other facilities in more than one 259 building, it was most definitely needed. I will advise the BOE and the Superintendent that any plans for future bond issues will be negatively looked at by many of my acquaintance, especially to the extent any funds might be used to improve athletic facilities. Build more classrooms? No problem, if the need is there. Replace post-1949 windows to increase energy efficiency, in light of the newly installed HVAC systems? Makes sense to them. Increase the size of school libraries? Not an issue if the need is demonstrated. Bigger and better fine arts facilities? Going to be a problem for some to support this.
BTW, any of you interested should take a crack at the sample math assessment questions linked to the Wednesday on-line article on this topic. I thought the high school questions were not all that difficult, needing (with one exception) only basic algebra and geometry to handle. The one on mean/mode required some memory digging, but if these concepts are presented by the 11th grade in whatever course (Algebra II (?)), shouldn’t confuse anyone taking the assessment.
Vaughn, the bond issue was not needed, if the school board had done what it is supposed to do on maintaining buildings and replacing buildings as needed. That is more cost effective and cheaper in the long run. This is similar to many governments not maintaining road ways, like the South Broadway bridge. Was it better to spend 480+ million vs. 280+ million if they had allocated the funds yearly to address the issues? A good business makes allowances for these costs in their budgets. A bad business does not. This applies to the Board of Regents colleges also.
On the court issue, there is probably any number of ways. Kansas Supreme Court does not always rule in a consistent manner on educational issues. While the Court did rule on the state’s role in education, unless I missed something it has not equalized certain aspects of school funding across districts fully. That would leave some wriggle room on the income testing. That is just one example.
I think we are in agreement on a number of things. I agree it is too slow on changing. We need to see how other countries are doing things now, take what we can from them, change what would not work for us, and I believe we would have a better and more competitive school system that does justice to our students.
I agree with your assessment on KBOR’s qualified applicants. I have gone to WSU with students that should never have been admitted. I seriously doubt that will graduate without grade inflation, and maybe not even then. I chose WSU because it was close and more affordable at my income level. It needs a leader, or maybe KBOR not sure which, that will make it more competitive with the other KBOR colleges. I see great potential with Wichita Public Schools and WSU, but without great leadership, it is not going to be reached. Same thing with public education on a state and national level. How many times have recommendations been made to the governor and legislature on ways to curb education costs that would allow that extra money to be funneled to other parts of the school system.
I agree Vaughn, the test wasn’t difficult, but probably provides a good assessment in general. The sample questions looked to me to be reasonable and would work for a pre-college assessment.
In 16 months, the entire charade of NCLB will be mercifully over . . . along with all the other failed Bush policies.
“The teacher felt that she was not gifted because if she finished her work early she did not cause problems in class but simply read a book. Therefore if she wasn’t hyperactive she could not possibly be gifted. This is the logic some teachers have.”
To qualify kids as gifted, I think the student has to perform at 3 grade levels above their current placement AND there is an expectation that it can be shown that their needs can’t be met in the regular classroom. The latter being the part they were citing in your kid’s case.
I think Vaughn is right that gifted status is not that important in high school.
Kansas, you’re likely right on the level of the math assessment questions.
Capn, remember that Sen. Kennedy was a co-sponsor of the original legislation. I foresee a continuation of NCLB beyond the end of the Bush administration, perhaps changed in some degree, but there in some form nonetheless.
Back, for a moment, to the subgroup issue. Randy’s lead-off didn’t mention all subgroups involved, but to the extent the data generated from the assessments are in any way meaningful, they show as to the various subgroups some “failures” of the system as to the members thereof.
I was in advanced classes in high school and I was very bored. The teachers the school had were very academic, almost Spock-like. I did well in the classes, but was bored by the time school was released and ready to play. :)
With all of the subgroups, a school or district can have 7 seven groups and if one doesn’t make it, they are SOL … that would be like getting passing grades in six classes but by failing one, you don’t get any credit at all. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Somebody upthread said that Education is a privilege, and not a right… I do believe that this is an erroneous statement… I believe there is a federal law that guarantees the right of all children to a public education, at least through the 8th grade…
I am not sure of the proper link, but I believe it is there…
And to the poster who said that they dont know why they should pay for education in their taxes, since they have no kids in school….
Well, who do you think paid the taxes when you DID have kids in school???
Sure, it was other people with no kids in school, plus yourself, of course…