A low point in our state’s education history is the subject of a new, re-edited documentary, “Kansas vs. Darwin,” that is debuting today at the Kansas International Film Festival in Overland Park. The film centers on the evolution hearings that the State Board of Education held in May 2005 and includes interviews with “the characters who captured the world’s attention.”
The filmmakers originally released the documentary a little more than a year ago, including discussions about cells and molecular biology that were over the heads of most viewers, the Lawrence Journal-World reported. So they re-edited the film, focusing more on the politics of faith and less on science.
That seems appropriate, as that’s what state board members did, too.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Jed on Let immigrants run
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
260 Comments
Dammit.
The problem is, when we dumb down scienc-y things for the general public, we are encouraging the ignorance.
This is fine most of the time because people who don’t “believe in evolution” don’t particularly matter to the field of scientific inquiry. Let them have their beliefs, they’re not hurting anyone.
But when they’re trying to mess with the classrooms, we cannot allow them to breeze past all the tough stuff, the hard science, and still influence the curriculum. If you want to change the science curriculum, you damn well better have a strong science background.
Thank goodness we won’t have to worry about that for a long time. I think Kansas learned their lesson and probably won’t vote nutjobs into the BOE again (fingers crossed)
Well, we can only hope, Tara!!
“The problem is, when we dumb down scienc-y things for the general public, we are encouraging the ignorance.”
I completely agree, Tara. If it went over the heads of people, well. . .that’s too bad. Maybe they needed clearer explanations. Or maybe, in our tabloid culture, people just don’t like thinking that hard!
Taking the science out–when THIS issue is involved–just strengthens the hand of the antiscience forces that caused this debacle in the first place.
While I haven’t seen the movie, if it does what Phillip said–”focusing more on the politics of faith and less on science”–that opens the door framing the issue as a contest between competing faith ideologies (e.g. conservative Christians vs. moderates), and obsfucates the real issue: the importance of having good science education in the first place.
To make thing even more confusing, those that believe in Creationism are now using science to back their claims but end by pointing out the same conclusions that Evolutionist have on certain subjects. Namely that once you get to a certain point there is no explanation. The Evolutionist say we simply have not found the answers pass this point and the Creationist say they know the answer and it is God. Which is the same argument in a sense that the Intelligent design people have ( yes there is a difference between I.D. and Creationism. I.D. comes to the same conclusion but state as of yet they do not know was the designer) that life is so complex that it had to have been designed. All three theories reach only to a certain point and can not prove their theory pass it.
Too bad the documentary isn’t showing in Wichita. We have two seats on the State Board of Ed up for election nest year, including the possible re-election campaign of one of the anti-science members Steve Abrams.
So…who cares if the world laughs at Kansas? We keep the faith and we have god on our side…..right?
Prove it! If you cannot prove evolution (and you cannot) it has no more right to be in the classroom than intelligent design or creationism. All “theories” should have equal right to be taught until one can be proven correct and the others proven false. Brownlee continually proves that he is a bigoted fool.
yep, why shouldn’t the world laugh at Kansans? There are so many laughable people residing here who wouldn’t EVER be capable of understanding science no matter how far you dumbed it down for them. i.e., the poster who has no comprehension of the words “scientific theory.”
thinkfirst, sadly, you summed the situation up well.
yep, why shouldn’t the world laugh at Kansans? There are so many laughable people residing here who wouldn’t EVER be capable of understanding science no matter how far you dumbed it down for them. i.e., the poster who has no comprehension of the words “scientific theory.”
thinkfirst, sadly, you summed the situation up well.
Science theory is not religious theory, and the two shouldn’t be taught equally as if they had anything to do with one another.
Funny how the creationist are demanding equal time in Science Classes in Government Schools.
Sure! I will allow you to have equal time, so long as you allow equal time for Evolution in Sunday School Classes and Church Sermons. Deal?
It is simply not true that presentation of the criticisms of the macro-evolution/Darwinian theory is dumbing down anything. In fact, it is bordering on intellectual child abuse to hide the unresolved problems with the theory and present it as fact. Because it is not.
The practical scientific value of the theory is constantly overstated. Actually, a student can become anything they want to be without believing in macro-evolution/Darwinian theory. They can understand life processes and evolutionary changes within species without going the additional incredible step to think that all life on earth today has as it ancestor a single cell organism.
Evolution Theory never states the origin of life nor that everything originated from a single cell organism.
But I will tell you this! Word for Word, the Bible is no science text book. And it has no scientific value at all.
If you want to trade in the Periodic Table for the New Testament. Go ahead! I don’t care, just as you don’t try to force your beliefs on other people.
Evolution is not a belief. It’s science! Major difference. Sure! It doesn’t explain everything, nor that is what it’s intention. You Christians are pitting a small segment of Science as an explanation of everything, like the Bible is to you. Evolution is but a very small branch of science.
Just like the Church said that God created the Earth and the Universe revolves around the Earth. Science discovered, through a branch of science called Astronomy, that no; we revolve around the Sun.
Well! That person was shunned, tortured and discredited for that.
So conversely, if we present only one religion to our children, say it’s fact, and present only one church to that child..it’s intellectual child abuse?
You know, I agree with that. And how many religious right parents would be appauled at that?
Y’know, it’s really simple; if you want your child to be a scientist, teach him evolution. If you want your child sweeping out the lab, teach him creationism.
Let’s see if the Creationists and ID backers can get the Bible to agree with itself on “origins” That could be interesting…
anyone who believes that evolution could be God’s way of creating is limiting the focus of God.
Isn’t it possble that God’s “days” were actually millions */- of years?
Both ideas may be correct, and if we refuse to consider all possibilites we are limiting ourselves…… More importantly by failing to present both to our children we are unfairly limiting them.
Can ANY Creationist say that they know 100% exactly WHAT GOD did in Creation??? I dont think so!!
Can any scientist say they know with 100% accuracy what happened at the beginning of all things??I dont think so!!
I have never had a problem with either of these… I personally dont know why there IS a problem…
They dont deal with the SAME issues… The Bible is not a scientific text book… Science is not about Theology… Maybe SOME day we will get this straight???
Both,”Isn’t it possble that God’s “days” were actually millions */- of years?”
If you’re an eternal being, there’s no such thing as time.
Ahhh yes, Jed, how true!!
Jed see Eccl. 3… good quote there about eternity… and themind of man…
“Prove it! If you cannot prove evolution (and you cannot) it has no more right to be in the classroom than intelligent design or creationism. All “theories” should have equal right to be taught until one can be proven correct and the others proven false.”
Let’s see how much you really understand the issue. What would it take to prove evolution false? (Hint: there’s quite a bit of conceivable evidence which would do the trick if found. Second hint: lack of transition fossils is NOT the answer. A) there is no lack. B) Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)
Now, what would it take to prove creationism false? Can you name anything?
I am a believer in creationism who under no circumstances thinks it should be taught in public schools. The darwinians might be very surprised to know how many science teachers in our public schools believe in ID and evolution. My sister-in-law is one of those. She doesn’t mix them in her classroom but can explain to you why she believes in both. She has a masters in Earth Science by the way. They didn’t make her sweep the lab floor once. Maybe tolerance is needed by the libs on this. Does the idea that there might be two theories worthy of consideration scare you that much?
Why not teach a multitude of theories of the begining?
None of them can be proven, so why not cover them all?
We indoctrinate our kids today, we don’t teach them to have an open mind and we don’t teach them to think for themselves.
So they re-edited the film, focusing more on the politics of faith and less on science.That seems appropriate, as that’s what state board members did, too.Posted by Phillip Brownlee
September 17, 2007 in Science | Permalink
ANd they were blasted for it. How is that appropriate. COncentrate on the science. Isn’t that what the discussion is about? SO it about science? Or discrediting the faith of many? WIth what? Intellectual discourse? Or SCIENCE!Stick with the science. Without the science, it’s just another competing theory.
Chas not sure what your beliefs on ID is but was this the verse you were referring to.
“11 He has made everything appropriate to its time, and has put the timeless into their hearts, without men’s ever discovering, from beginning to end, the work which God has done.”
Man isn’t capable of understanding God’s time. Therefore the age of the earth as measured by man really has no relevance to the theory of ID.
Was this what you referring to? Do you actually believe in something the bible says without opening it for interpretation? Not trying to pick an argument, just wondering?
Sure BgGeek… Lack of faith, or faith in another religion… Thats easy!!
If you think Kansas is bad check out Kentucky on the Topix forums — we’re bloody brilliant. The Hmong sex forum is great too.
Bggeek(?),”Now, what would it take to prove creationism false? Can you name anything?”
Yeah, my back hurts!Assuming of course, that this creator is halfway intelligent. A spine is a perfect structure for a life form that is supported by water. When horizontal and supported by four legs, it works well enough. But when raised vertically, all sorts of structural stresses occur. You’ve got three choices here:
1. Evolution2. A stupid creator3. A malicious creator
KSgrm, I think you can just pick and choose which verses to believe.
Yes, KsGrm, Eccl. 3:11 — Thats as good a translation as any… Not the one I had in mind, but its OK…
Mankind is incapable of understanding the Infinite…
Thanks Max that is probably right.
Jed so are you saying man should still be crawling on the ground? What an amazing creation we are. My question has always been – If indeed we are the result of evolution – Why did it quit? For thousands of year we have been in this upright form – that is documented by recent history – why did evolution stop? Maybe we should have sprouted wings so we wouldn’t have to carry this weight around all the time. Anything would be an improvement for your aching back.
Thank you Chas for not trying to give me man’s translation for that verse. There just may be hope for you yet.
See, KsGrm, we agree on this one!! Amazing, isnt it??
“Maybe we should have sprouted wings so we wouldn’t have to carry this weight around all the time.”– KsGrm –
Actually, we HAVE done that… the Wheel… boats… trains, planes, automobiles… in short, transportation… keeps us from carrying our weight around all the time… I would consider that a part of the overall “evolutionary” cycle…
Well Chas that is one way of looking at it but it wouldn’t be something you could bring into a science classroom. It also wouldn’t explain the absence of evolutionary change in the last couple of thousand years.
Bggeek(?),”Now, what would it take to prove creationism false? Can you name anything?”
Of course. “Faith” in creation begins with undeniable facts that the bible, archaeology and historians have shown to be accurate. If archaeological digs were to continually show that places and events in the bible were not true – this would be rather convincing proof that the bible could not be considered seriously as a historical document. But that is contrary to what is actually being discovered. Each year more and more digs are uncovering more evidence that what is stated in the bible is in fact true. Creationists do not base their beliefs on “blind faith”… our human skepticism forces us to doubt our faith from time to time. But there are irrefutable facts that are discovered constantly that “help us” re-affirm our faith in God.
You have the freedom to believe what you will. As christians we believe that God gave us that freewill to do just that. The fact is… the bible states that “most” people will NOT believe… narrow is the path that leads to righteousness… broad is the path of least resistance. If I said that I didn’t care that you or anyone else does not believe – I would be lying. Not because I want to win an argument or because I want everyone to be just like me… but because as a christian I care about the salvation of others. Eternity is a long time to be apart from your creator.
And you know what… If I’m wrong… so what… I have led a good life and I will die some day none the worse for my sojourn here… but if you’re wrong….
Good answer Rob. I am surprised that so many non-believers miss that simple truth.
“If indeed we are the result of evolution – Why did it quit?”
It hasn’t quit, what gave you that idea?
“For thousands of year we have been in this upright form”
Primates have been walking upright for millions of years. Humans are only the latest (and last) primate to primarily walk upright (although others are capable of it in short bursts). See? Evolution hasn’t stopped at all.
“Maybe we should have sprouted wings so we wouldn’t have to carry this weight around all the time.”
If you’re serious about this it is a profound misunderstanding of how evolution works.
Grannie,Who said evolution quit? You are assuming that we are somehow the end product of evolution. Unless something happens that destroys all life on earth (like if we royally screw the place up), we can be pretty sure that there will be further evolution, either of us or whatever replaces us.
Evolution builds on existing structures, and structures that succeed for whatever reason survive (and being lucky helps) for as long as they’re successful, while those that may be only a bit less successful end up as extinct species (something like 98%+ of all species that have ever existed here). And yes, I like to think we’re pretty remarkable. How much of that is hubris only time will tell. Could be that in a few million years, our skeletons will be mounted in museums alongside not-too-flattering assessments of our intelligence. Or it could be that our brains are just too expensive an adaptation and we’ll be survived by more successful “lower species.” Just remember that when Darwin spoke of “survival of the fittest,” fitness is merely the ability to survive a particular set of momentary circumstances. The next set may require an altogether different set of traits.
“If you’re serious about this it is a profound misunderstanding of how evolution works.”
All any of the threads on evolution at the WE Blog do is demonstrate what a profound ignornace people who post here have about science, theory, and the topic of evolution.
There is no point in arguing with people who have an investment of some sort in NOT understanding evolution. Please go on with your ignorance, but do us a favor, and don’t pass this willful ignorance on to your children — that would be an example of De-evolution.
Rob — What you are saying about archaeological digs is pretty much accurate… In that sense, the Bible, being produced in “historical” times, is fairly accurate as to places, buildings, etc. But that does NOT make it a SCIENTIFICALLY accurate book… And there is a HUGE difference there…
I am sure you would agree with that…
“Of course. “Faith” in creation begins with undeniable facts that the bible, archaeology and historians have shown to be accurate.”
Except for little things like the creation of the world, Adam and Eve, the flood…
“But that is contrary to what is actually being discovered. Each year more and more digs are uncovering more evidence that what is stated in the bible is in fact true.”
The Empire State Building is in King Kong. The Empire State Building really exists. Yet King Kong is not a reliable historical source. Why? Because writing about things that actually exist and actually happened doesn’t serve one little bit as proof of miracles or the super-natural.
“And you know what… If I’m wrong… so what… I have led a good life and I will die some day none the worse for my sojourn here… but if you’re wrong….”
Ah, Pascal’s Wager my old friend. I see you every time I talk to creationists. What if you are wrong about the Islamic God? He’s made it pretty clear that Christians aren’t getting into his heaven? By your argument I should believe in the God who has the worst hell.
Bggeek,What if….. Each religion’s god has his/her own heaven for that faith’s faithful? Now the question becomes would I be allowed to take an occasional weekend off to visit my Muslim or Buddhist or Ba’Hai friends? And what would an atheist heaven look like?
Jed, since the body does not survey death, and our entire visual abilities are in the realm of physical body, How do we know that anything can actually be “seen” in any kind of Heaven??
How should abortion be taught in our public schools? Creation or Evolution?
Jed and Steven I didn’t put down evolution and if you understood it that way, sorry. I indeed believe that all life evolves to adapt to their environment. Hence the reason many instructors can teach evolution and still believe in ID. Why get so mad or act so arrogant – call me stupid or whatever because you don’t agree with me?
I’ll allow you to believe anything you want. If you want evolution taught in the schools. Have at it. I have no problem with this. It is a theory, not fact, as loud as you shout you won’t change that.
To each his own. It’s refreshing – try it.
Steven does this mean we won’t be meeting in DC?
Time is an artificial construct created in man’s mind to put boundaries on events.
We call how long men live, a lifetime. Lifetime guarantee of a product refers to its usability and warranty implications.
The birth of a baby involves nine months more or less, of preparation before it is born.
The numbers of letters and numbers on a calendar doesn’t indicate how long it takes to actually create the calendar.
We don’t recall events in time when we sleep, but can reference a clock to get approximations of the hours slept.
When we get in a car accident, our mind quickly analyzes the situation and the mind camera records the events for us. It seems like seconds last longer then they actually do.
We are often rated in our work by our productivity. That is, what we do over time and how efficient we are along with the goods or service unit output measurement standard.
The lifetime of volcano is measured in cycles. When the volcano no longer “works” we call it inactive, it never really dies.
We have the four seasons, all of nature realizes these temperature changes naturally. Monarch butterflies go to a warmer place, birds fly south, bears hibernate and plants go “inactive.”
We have eternal “truths” and temporary lapses. If we didn’t finish an exam, we didn’t have enough time.
We get tickets for driving at a rate of speed over time called miles per hour.
Scientists spend a lot of time finding out about time. It affects our understanding of space. It helps us to get a handle on how that dinosaur bone may be. It helps theorists to establish formulas like “E=MC^2.”
We are crippled by time as well. When we try to figure out what the distance of star is from the earth, we use years and light years. However, a year on earth has more to do with seasons and earth’s rotational movements than it does with “how far” the star actually is. A star doesn’t have seasons nor is it influenced by a small blue planet’s rotation. Yet it is all we have.
We have phrases and words, like “forever, whenever and someday.” We have words for calendar changes like tomorrow, moon phases and astrological events. We can rent by the hour, days or longer.
Time is measured differently by different societies. Aztec calendars use ethereal and astrological events to map out their time from the beginning to the end of their earth. Farmers use growing seasons, unless your a horticulturists who grows plants in a greenhouse.
We never know we our “time” is up. Holding our breath until we turn “blue” marks the amount of time until we pass out, but says little about how much time has actually passed.
People in general can’t get a grip on eternity, it makes no sense to them. To them, there must be a beginning and an end.
Yet the Bible in its wisdom tells us that our existence is measured from “dust to dust.” God describes Himself as “I am” for identity and for the purpose of existence without time parameters.
We don’t really know how long it takes man to evolve, because we can’t connect cavemen (if they are indeed men) with modern men. So, we describe human events as periods called civilizations.
By the time we actually think about something, it is already in the past, yet we can imagine thinking about something in this regard that may happen in the future. We sometimes call these predictions of events.
The time it took you to read these, unknown trillions of bacteria have multiplied around the world, winds have circulated invisibly measured by meteorologists using rate over time measurements.
We cannot understand God, because of our varied “rulers.” We cannot imagine some event in the past with 100 percent accuracy if we have not been there – yet it still occurred.
We know neither our future nor can we calculate with any precision unknown events that occur in the future. Yet it will happen.
How will you spend your “time” today. :)
Evolution is neither right nor wrong. The stories in the Bible regarding “Creation” events is neither right nor wrong. We cannot know the past with precision because as Heisenberg once stated, the state of matter and energy is affected by our measuring of it. Thusly, we can never know what actually happened and when.
We don’t even know the why and how most of the time either.
However, it happened.
Happened is a strange word don’t you think? It happened.
“I am” describes “happenings” in a form we can never understand.
Our center of existence befuddles us and we strike out with great jealousy and rage if it eludes us or assignment is outside our control.
We are merely human, the people of “they were”, “they are” or “they will be”, but never “I am.”
It’s a good thing, actually, that ID isnt arguing for all scientific “theory” not be taught in schools… After all, even after all these years, “gravity” is still labeleed as a “theory”, as is “relativity” among others…
I like that post, Kansas… You ever read Tillich’s great sermon on Time??? If not, its a good read… AND a short one!!
chas: Not a good analogy there; relating the “theory” of gravity to the “theory” of evolution.
Now if that theory consisted or trying to demonstrate that over the ages gravity gradually developed, then you might have a valid comparison.
God is identified as “I AM” which is the ROOT for the concept of Being… Thus, some of the great thologians have identified God as the “Ground of Being” – Paul Tillich in particular… in his “Systematic Theology”…
Chas,Interesting question. Maybe it could be answered this way; while sensory raw data is usually a product of the physical eye, vision as we experience it is a product of the creative mind. We are capable of visualizing things we haven’t actually seen, and what we see with our eyes is heavily tempered by our conceptual abilities. If the mind (an ephemeral substance if there ever was one) is what survives after death, as opposed to the simple monad of eastern religions, vision in some sense is possible. Otherwise, heaven would be no more than a return to the womb, which would probably be fine for about 9 months, and then we’d want out!
Outlander, the analogy is not that Gravity and Evolution are related… the analogy is that they are both understood scientifically as THEORY… as is Relativity…
Some Kansans shouldn’t worry about evolving from apes, they haven’t evolved, they’re still apes or at least think like them.
GMC70 likes his tinfoil hat and it’s down hill from there.
Jed, you ever read “Ancient Evenings,” by Norman Mailer… In a strange sort of way, Mailer in that strange book, sort of describes death/pre-reincarnation as exactly that… a womb like experience, not bounded by “time” Most interesting concept… And, I would have to agree with you, on the “visual” concept notion… as long as the mind is something that survives death… if indeed anything survives death…
It would see, however, that at the moment of death, “time” ceases.
** see = seem
Max,”How should abortion be taught in our public schools? Creation or Evolution?”
How about as law?
Chas,I haven’t; Mailer and I don’t get along too well.Having never talked with anyone who actually died (not “near-death experiences”), and not having died myself, I’ll just have to file that under “I Don’t Know.”
Tara,As always, your beauty is only exceeded by your intelligence.
Chas,
Also, if the mind doesn’t survive death, at least to my western sensibilities it isn’t an “I” that survives, whatever else might.
“…it isn’t an “I” that survives, whatever else might.”– Jed –
And that is where the more “eastern” spirituality steps in… What survives is a “oneness” with the universe… or the “great knowledge” or something of that sort…
After all, even after all these years, “gravity” is still labeleed as a “theory”, as is “relativity” among others…
I dont know what school you went to, but our schools taught the Laws of Gravity, not the theory of Gravity. There are some theories about gravity, but the basics are considered laws, not theories.
Outlander, you don’t agree that all religions should be taught to your kids?
I love how you ignored my post…guess I must have proven my point.
“I haven’t; Mailer and I don’t get along too well.”
Oh well. Fug him.
I don’t want creation taught in schools.
What I would like is for the truth about Evolution to be taught in schools.
It seems as if anything which contradicts the Holy Religion of Evolution is cast out as heresy.
I think it was said earlier, that you can do anything you want to without having to accept the theory of Evolution.
As much as people here would like to argue that Evolution doesn’t deal with the begining of life…
Well, Evolution is not taught in a isolated way. It IS taught in conjunction with life begining with a “spark” in a puddle of goo.
I have never seen Evolution taught or even heard anyone argue Evolution on the premise: Assume life, now Evolution.
The problem with Evolution as a theory is that it is comprised of many different things which many people still disagree on.
What part of Evolution is true?
Can that in turn be tested? Duplicated? Observed?
It IS taught in conjunction with life begining with a “spark” in a puddle of goo.Posted by: Nathan | September 17, 2007 at 02:29 PM
Please share with us the current textbook in which this is being taught.
Thanks.
Tom,
Can you share with us which textbooks address Evolution without the beginning of life?
It has been awhile since I took HighSchool Biology, but my book most definately called it a “spark” because I made fun of it in class.
Let me do some looking and see what I can find.
I made fun of it in class.Posted by: Nathan | September 17, 2007 at 02:44 PM
Ahhhhh….such a good student you must have been. Mocking the teachers because, after all, you were _born_ knowing more than they.
:::eyeroll:::
Tom: If you take Darwin’s theory back far enough you logically have to arrive at the puddle of goo that Nathan mentioned. Basically single cell organisms. And before that, tiny clumps of protein. Of course you get to the point where certain systems are irreducibly complex, which is major problem for Darwinism.
But if you don’t believe that life started there, then when and where? How did it get there?
Exactly outlander,
Who here believes in Evolution by simply saying Assume life, now Evolution!
Outlander,
According to Nathan, there is no “back far enough.” He’s a young-earther, remember? Therefore, no possibility of evolution according to modern theories.
Which, by the way, are not called “Darwinism” any more than what Nathan does is called “self-righteousism”
Chas,”What survives is a “oneness” with the universe… or the “great knowledge” or something of that sort…”
A “oneness” with the universe and what? If there is no mind, there is no consciousness, no “I” to be at one with anything.
But, on the other hand, can anybody PROVE that God Did NOT start out Creation with a “spark” and a “puddle of goo”???
Chas theories are just that because they can’t be proven. Once a theory is proven it becomes a law as in gravity. That was taught waaay back when I was in school. Did you go to school in Kansas?
Pmom not sure where your kids attend school but my grandkids have all been taught about ‘other’ religions. Nothing about Christianity but Hindu, Buddist, Muslim, and Wicca. You libs had better get up in arms. My granddaughter in Oregon was taught in kindergarten that it was ok for Heather to have two mommies or two daddies. She didn’t have a clue what sex was but she needed to know this because??
While you are out there putting down others who have different beliefs at least be honest within the argument.
Thats right Jed… it is sometimes described as a merger of self, into the “vastness of the universe” — meaning no more ‘I”
Chas don’t your legs ever get sore from all that stretching you do to straddle an issue. At least be honest enough to state your opinion and then stick to it. Whether we agree or not.
Not everything is black and white but when you say creation might have been started with a spark and goo – where do you put God in that argument?
Chas,
What God would you be talking about?
I believe in the CHRISTIAN GOD, the One true God who sent his only son to die for our sins.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God, the key to our salvation, my Lord and Savior.
So what God are you talking about?
Last time we talked, you said:
“God is whatever you conceive of Him to be”
Chas,It had to start much further back than the spark and puddle of goo. First the universe had to create the elements, then the molecules that made up that puddle of wonderful goo.Much more elegant for god to create that first law of nature to which all the other laws are corollary and let everything happen from there. Even more elegant for god to BE that first law!
…creation might have been started with a spark and goo – where do you put God in that argument?
Posted by: ksgrm | September 17, 2007 at 03:29 PM======================
I already answered that….
Thats the general idea, Jed
Granny,”My granddaughter in Oregon was taught in kindergarten that it was ok for Heather to have two mommies or two daddies. She didn’t have a clue what sex was but she needed to know this because??”
Because too many kids are taught to hate Heather and make life miserable for her because their christian parents just can’t bring themselves to understand her two mommies!
Nathan,”God is whatever you conceive of Him to be.”
I hate to tell you this, but that’s true of christians as well; if you all compared notes, I doubt you could find two christians who worship the same identical god.
Jed,
Figuring that you constantly mischaracterize Christians and Christianity and constantly accuse them of things which you refuse to back up…
I will take what you say as crap as usual:
“I doubt you could find two christians who worship the same identical god.”
I can find entire churches full of people who ALL believe that Christ is their Lord and Savior and the key to salvation.
Now Chas on the other hand? He won’t admit to that…
But then again, CHRISTIANS believe that to be the basic fundamental to being a Christian.
Jed I firmly believe that Nathan and I do worship the same God. That would be two.
And Jed when I want my kids or grandkids taught something other that the three R’s shouldn’t I or their parents be making that decision?
Isn’t that what this entire discussion is about. Teaching something in schools that the libs didn’t agree with. What right do you or any other lib have to teach my grandchild or any other child something so social as sexual orientation at the age of 5?
It’s ok on one side but oh so wrong on the other. We have gone all day and the truth has finally emerged. It isn’t what they are being taught, it is what the libs think they should be taught. That is certainly refreshing.
Granny,”Once a theory is proven it becomes a law as in gravity.”
I might point out that just like evolution, we have a pretty good body of evidence that gravity exists, and what happens when something is affected by gravity. How gravity works is vastly less understood than how evolution works. Let’s not get too free with “Law” of gravity if you’re unwilling to concede the point on evolution.
Nathan,
Get your copy of the Yellow Pages. Open to “Churches.” Tell me how many Christian denominations you find there. Then tell me they all have identical beliefs.
I’ll wait.
Tom,
Doctrinal differences to not equate worshipping a different God.
You claim was not about identical beliefs, it was about worshipping different Gods.
You’re not the end product of evolution, therefore you have not evolved into the capacity to understand the meaning or purpose of your existence.
The best that you can come-up with now is to lust after power and manufacture gods into assuming the rolls of parents.
I can go to a non=denomination Church of Christ to worship… Jesus!
I can go to the Assemblies of God church to worship… Jesus!
I can go to a Catholic church to worship… Jesus!
I can go to the Orthodox Presbyeterian Chruch to worship… Jesus!
I can go to the entire array of different Baptist churches to worship… Jesus!
I can go to the Lutheran church to worship… Jesus!
My claim??? Paste in “my claim.”
Geeze, Nathan, you really don’t read very carefully, do you?
Nathan, Granny,Have you two actually compared detailed notes on exactly what your concept of god is? And do they exactly agree on every point? I didn’t think so. In fact it would be virtually impossible for any two people to conceptualize identical beings when they hear the word “god.” Most religious people get around this obstacle by not being too specific when comparing gods.
Ksgrm,
This may come as a shock to you, but there’s only one “R”. “Writing” and “arithmetic” do start with “w” and “a” respectively.
Jed:
If everytime I put a spark to a glob of goo I created life then I would give you that. Everytime I throw an apple in the air it comes down. Law
Let’s not get too free with “Law” of gravity if you’re unwilling to concede the point on evolution.
Posted by: Jed | September 17, 2007 at 04:08 PM
Tom very literally you are right. Ok
When you say you can go into any service in any of that long list of various churches and worship Jesus! You are right… YOU can do that, as an individual… But perhaps what you dont understand is that the particular CHURCH you are in might not necessarily share the same interpretation of worshipping Jesus! as YOU have as an individual… THAT is what seems to be the mis-understanding here…
I was raised when it was ‘reading, riting and rithamatic taught to the tune of a hickory stick’. I guess you are younger than me.
The question isnt so much believing in Jesus… it’s WHICH Jesus… see???
Remember the story of the blind men and the elephant Jed? Because of their handicap, none of these men could experience the entire elephant. Yet their descriptions were correct, as far as they went.
Similarly, no one can experience God in his entirety. We experience Him as we have sought Him out or as He has revealed Himself to us. It is no surprise that our perception of God may differ in certain ways. But I bet if you asked Nathan and Ksgrm to each list God’s attributes, there would be many on each list that were identical to the other’s.
Ed,”You’re not the end product of evolution, therefore you have not evolved into the capacity to understand the meaning or purpose of your existence.”
Of course we aren’t the “end product” of evolution. There is no “end product” of evolution. Evolution is a short-term solution to the demands of a dynamic habitat, not a longterm goal, as much as you might like it to be.If you need a meaning or purpose to your existence, you’ll just have to invent your own. If you lack the creative wherewithall to do it yourself, there are a zillion or so televangelists that will gladly sell you theirs prepackaged for a generous donation.
but, outie, none of them described an elephant!!!
Chas,
Exactly.
Jed I am so sorry for you in your inability to find a place for yourself. How sad that you don’t know where you came from or where you are going.
That is the peace in my belief. I know I came from God and one day will live with him for eternity. You can mock that as much as you like it won’t change it.
If at the end of my life when the last breath leaves this body I inhabit now – I will leave believing that I am going to a far better place. If I didn’t then I won’t know that will I?
but, outie, none of them described an elephant!!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 04:33 PM
Chas,
Exactly.
Posted by: Tom | September 17, 2007 at 04:37 PM
Chas now see what you have done. You are supposed to be a shepherd of men and you are leading Tom away from the gate. I guess that is why you are an enigma to me.
Outie,I’m sure there would be many points of congruence, but just as many differences just between the two of them. If you add in the lists of all the other christians, you’d find that the differences so numerous, and the people so contentious over them that it must be assumed they’re talking about entirely different beings.
Your grandkids were taught religion in school? Yep, I’d have an issue with it.
IF Heather had two mommies or two daddies, that is an appropriate discussion to have with the class, since the class is going to find out. I don’t see them talking about sex anywhere…did you?
Is talking about having four grandparents talking about sex too?
If we teach our kids the 3 “R’s” we are teaching them — W A R…
I would hope we also teach them the 2 “R’s” — Respect & Responsibility!!! Without those, the other three are pretty stale!!
Granny,”If everytime I put a spark to a glob of goo I created life then I would give you that.”
Actually life may have been created numerous times. Evolution has weeded it down to the one line we’ve discovered so far that has had the structure to survive everything the world has thrown at it (and the world ain’t done throwin’).
“If you add in the lists of all the other christians, you’d find that the differences so numerous, and the people so contentious over them that it must be assumed they’re talking about entirely different beings.”
That’s what is known as “legalism” Jed. You have put your finger on one of the problems facing Christian churches today.
Christians will get so tied up in religion that we lose sight of the message of the saving gospel of Christ.
Granny,” How sad that you don’t know where you came from or where you are going.”
Sorry to disappoint you, but it’s been a grand adventure! While I sometimes wish it were a bit less eventful, I wouldn’t trade lives with anyone- bank accounts maybe!
Outie, thats why I keep saying that it is counter-productive to have a narrow view of the faith…
Outie,Unfortunately, that “Legalism” stems from the very root of humanity and is irresolvable, at least in this life. It isn’t “lost sight of,” it’s “never been found,” and we’re left entirely conceptually unequipped to find it. Please don’t give me that “faith” song and dance; that’s what got you in this mess to begin with!
Jed what you don’t realize about religion is that religion is simply a word. Christianity is a much more all encompassing word.
I believe that the one and only Jesus Christ (Chas) is the son of the one true God. He came to earth, lived among men and gave his life that I might have eternal life.
That is the basis of my faith. I recognize that different denominations have different tenets and beliefs but as long as we share that one we are alike. In my life I have been in several different denominations from Southern Baptist to Catholic. We are now members of a non-denominational church.
Jed I truely enjoy my life. Look down on no one. Wouldn’t change a thing. NOt even a bank account. I read an article recently about the man who won the biggest lottery in history and five years after the fact all he had left was the money – his wife divorced him, his granddaugher committed suicide and he wished he had never won a dime.
Pmom having explain the facts of life to my kids and some of my grandkids I can tell you that the story of Heather raised questions I thought were not age appropriate. We start sexualizing our kids way to early as it is. MOHO – but it doesn’t need to be taught in our schools.
Grm… Sorry to disappoint you, but I am not leading Tom anywhere!!
Well you and I sure agree on that Chas.
We start sexualizing our kids way to early as it is. MOHO – but it doesn’t need to be taught in our schools.
Posted by: ksgrm | September 17, 2007 at 05:01 PM
Yes, we must teach sex education to our public grade school children.
But, don’t dare teach Creation as one of the many theories of The Beginning.
Teach all the sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll that you want, just don’t mention God.
KsGrm… There are a lot of Heathers that have two mommies, or maybe two daddies… That is because the world isnt the same as it was when you were in school, or when I was in school… Heather has Two Mommies is NOT a sexual book, as far as I can tell… It is just a book for kids from heterosexual homes, who cant understand what is going on elsewhere… Kids are curious critters… They ask questions, and we cant just tell them to go ask grandpa anymore!!
Max,
There’s many, many different faiths out there. Which one should be taught?
Is it up to you to decide?
I am not going to say anything about non-denominational congregations… but that does explain a lot of things…. There are many understandings of WHO Jesus was/is/shall be…. There are numerous understandings of Atonement, and Redemption… even of Grace, and yes, Faith…
Different denominations (or congregations) will have different understandings… Calvinists have a different understanding of Atonement than Pentecostals… Pentecostals different from Catholics…
Is Baptism in the Name of Jesus equal to Salvation??? Or it might not be… in many cases….
Does a person need sanctification to be TRULY SAVED… and when/how is that gotten??? At Baptism, or some later point in time??
These are not just differences in denominations…. These are different ways of understanding SALVATION…
Even the practice of Sacraments (oh, yea, some dont have such things… they have ordinances) …
How MANY Sacraments??? 2, 2 1/2, 4, 7??? More?? And are the Sacraments the MEANS of GRACE?? Or, are they just obeying some command??? Are they proactive, or interactive???
These are all issues of the understanding of SALVATION!!! Because they ALL talk of ways that various Christians come to accept Jesus!!!
Some are baptized as babies, and thus, grow up in the life, and ministry and worship of the Church… Some arent!!
Not EVERYBODY understands JESUS the same way!!
Is he born of a Virgin??? And if so, what the heck does that mean??? Or maybe that isnt important??? Is the Crucifixion the completion of His work??? After all, he did say, It Is Finished!!!
Some dont think He’s finished till the end of all things… Guess he didnt get it right the first time, maybe???
I do believe that anybody but the extremely narrow viewpoints can understand this vast dilemma… Those with the very narrow viewpoints, Have a Nice Life, and a nice Eternity… The rest of us will struggle along life’s climbing way, with painful steps, and slow… And we will celebrate the “glad and golden” hours, and sing our praises at Christmas, and at Easter!! And the rest of the time, we will struggle living in God’s Grace and Faith, given as Free Gifts!!
Gotta go for now…
Peace to all!!
Outie, thats why I keep saying that it is counter-productive to have a narrow view of the faith…
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 04:59 PM
Chas: With all due respect, what I see you espousing is a lot of “happy Jesus” nonsense in which one religion is as good or as bad as another.
That, my friend is not scriptural.
I dont believe it has to be scriptural to be TRUE, Outie…
There are lots of things in this world that arent scriptural, that are TRUE… No Christian has the right to hold their faith up to the rest of the world, and proclaim that THEY are right, and the rest of the world is WRONG!!
Dont you get it??? That’s exactly what is going on with the Middle East… THEY are telling that to the world, and WE say that they cant do that… While many of OUR folks turn right around and DO IT!!!
Just look at the content of this Blog when we get into a religious subject!!!
How DARE we go into Moslem nations, and tell them that they cant do with THEIR religion what many Christians do… Make the attempt to spread it world wide…
Well as a bonus Chas, that belief contradicts the words of Jesus. I know I don’t have to point you to where.
It is a secularist’s position Chas.
It does seem odd outlander that Chas would deny scripture on spreading the word. :)
I see the First Church of Democratic Hate Values are out in force tonight.
Chas you just muddle along in your ignorance of the scripture your profess to preach and share.
Just don’t equate my faith with the radical muslims. I don’t bomb buildings. I don’t send my children into a mosque with a bomb attached to them, I don’t call others infidels and call for their death, I don’t espouse erasing an entire country. So get off that kick. You just make yourself look less than intelligent. I really don’t care what you believe but don’t pretend to be something you aren’t and not expect to be called on it.
Live and let live. I believe that. By the same token I have the right to my beliefs as long as I don’t make you adopt them.
Chas I do stand on something. Try it sometime.
Chas is spot on, and you can’t stand that he’s right. You KSgrm, was all against morning after pills for people even though you didn’t know how they really worked. You did that based on ignorance and faith. You don’t believe in live and let live or you wouldn’t be pushing your religious beliefs onto other people.
It raised questions that you thought were not age appropriate? Well if they were asking, I guess they knew more than you think they did anyway.
So what do you tell them? You simplify it. Some families have one mommy. Some families have one daddy. Some families have a mom and a dad, and some kids have two mommies.
It’s not that hard.
Honestly, if you look at the entire universe, I think you’d have to be insane to think of how insignificant we are in the big scheme of things…and that there isn’t any other life out there other than us.
We are but a speck of sand in all the sand in the world.
‘You are here: Earth as seen from Mars’http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/?IDNumber=PIA05547
Our only home…’Our Pale Blue Dot’http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p86BPM1GV8M
HT to http://desmogblog.com/
Chas,
Do you ever stop and wonder WHY the very people who routinely BASH Christians and Christianity: Tom, Jed, Political Mom, are the very ones praising you?
Do you ever wonder why the Christians who will actually admit that Jesus is their Lord and Savior: Outlander, ksgrm, Kansas, and myself don’t agree with you?
Coincidence? I think not.
So tell us Chas, why are you a Christian? Is Jesus the key to salvation?
If I believe that God is a golden calf, am I correct, because as you say: “God is whatever you conceive of him to be”
The point is that many Christians do have a different UNDERSTANDING of Jesus, but they all still worship and follow Jesus.
A different understanding of the things Jesus said doesn’t = believing in a different Jesus.
All those churches I listed, I have been a member of.
I am friends with people from all sorts of denominations. We have our differences on certain doctrines, but we still love and worship Christ and accept him as the one TRUE savior.
Why don’t you?
Pmom you are one of the most intolerant people I have ever came across. You pretend to be so mainstream middle of the road as long as no one challenges you.
I am not now nor have I ever pushed my religion on you. Why do you keep saying that? When we are on a blog and I give an opinion how is that any different than you giving an opinion. If I think 5 is to young for sex ed why is that any concern of yours unless you have something to do with setting ciriculum.
Chas just compared the religion that is at the basis of his livliehood to radical islam and he wondered why no one respects him. How DARE he compare me to a muslim who murders on a daily basis!!
Oh I slipped into Chas’s character there for a minute. Sorry.
As usuakl, KsGrm, you still havent learned to READ!!! IF you read what I said, you would readily admit that YOU ARE DEAD WRONG!!! GO READ IT AGAIN, YOU NARROW MINDED RELIGIOUS BIGOT!~!
kSgRM, DOES CHRISTIANITY ATTEMPT TO SPREAD ITS FAITH WORLD WIDE, OR NOT???
DOES ISLAM ATTEMPT TO SPREAD ITS FAITH WORLD WIDE, OR NOT???
THAT IS THE COMPARISON…. SO GET IT RIGHT, FOR A CHANGE, AND MAYBE I WONT CALL YOU A RELIGIIOUS BIGOT!!
NATHAN — Do you believe in Jesus??? Of course you do…
So, do you believe in baptizing Babies in the Name of Jesus??
Do you believe in celebrating the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, broken and shed for YOU???
Do you believe in calling people forward to share in the Broken Body and Shed Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist???
See, I believe those things…
DO YOU????
including discussions about cells and molecular biology that were over the heads of most viewers************************And therein lies the problem. Our kids have been dumbed down for several generations, and then we wonder why science is attacked. People fear things that they don’t understand. This only supports the need for “good” science in schools.
Nathan,Pardon me, but I don’t seem to recollect praising Chas. He does have one major advantage over you in that he actually thinks, is well-read, can carry on an interesting conversation and isn’t boring as sin! I probably disagree with him more often than I disagree with you simply because I talk to him more. I know a lost cause when I see one, and you’re more lost than most! Still, some viewpoints are hazardous to the world and must be opposed, so I occasionally respond to your posts. It’s also sometimes amusing to tease you into tying yourself in knots. You do it so well!
“Dont you get it??? That’s exactly what is going on with the Middle East… THEY are telling that to the world, and WE say that they cant do that… While many of OUR folks turn right around and DO IT!!!”
Excuse me Chas you are just plain wrong. “Most of our folks” are not doing what they are doing? We have missionaries in many countries. I assume your church does this also. Maybe not.
Save those titles for yourself. You deserve them. Your quote. Deny it if you must. But don’t tell me that ‘most Christian’ are doing what the radical muslims are doing. Just doesn’t wash. Maybe your reading comprehension is messed up.
Jed
You said: “Of course we aren’t the “end product” of evolution. There is no “end product” of evolution. Evolution is a short-term solution to the demands of a dynamic habitat, not a long term goal, as much as you might like it to be.”
You failed to understand what I said.
Evolution is not just the physical adaption to the environment, but the evolution of the capacity to understand. IE: Increased numbers of senses and the world expands etc.
We are only in the primal stages of intelligence and comprehension, therfore unable to perceive an end product of evolution or what that might consist of from a different and much more enlightened perspective.
Am I too far over your head?
Ed just a personal observation but I think you are to far over YOUR head.
From your perspective, right?
Granny,”Pmom having explain the facts of life to my kids and some of my grandkids I can tell you that the story of Heather raised questions I thought were not age appropriate.”
I guess I find your attitude more than a bit strange; I’m in my 60’s, and had a number of gay and lesbian friends literally from birth.
They were wonderful people who I would like to think had some influence on the way I turned out. They were friends of my parents whom we visited as much as money and distance would allow, and I have many wonderful memories associated with them. Unfortunately I’ve lost all of them over the last 10 years or so, but I’m infinitely better for having known them.I find the prevailing christian attitudes toward gay people at best ignorant beyond belief, and at worst sickeningly hateful. It doesn’t jibe at all with my experience.One of the first things you have to get over is the idea that gay is all about sex. Actually it’s all about people, same as heterosexuals. You don’t need to explain gay relationships to your 5yr-old anymore than you need to explain straight ones. It’s when you treat it as something weird or shameful that you find yourself in the position of explaining it to your grandkids.I’ve seen way too much hatred and violence over the years directed at friends who wanted nothing more than to live their lives, and it comes from such attitudes. Please stop indoctrinating children in such hatred! Everybody will be so much better off if it dies with the last generation!
Look Grm, it is the same. You both believe that your brand of religion should rule. You support the war and don’t even tell me you don’t parade the whole God issue around with the war because I’ve seen you do it.
Nathan, I praise Chas only because he doesn’t insist on his religion ruling you or anyone else. It’s his personal faith, and he preaches to people who believe the same as he does. If someone comes to him looking for the way, he will tell them what he believes. What he won’t do is tell someone they’re not really Christians if they don’t choose his brand.
I know that it is impossible for you to understand how a non christian can respect a christian…chas is how that happens. Then there are the Christians like you and Fred Phelps that I can’t respect.
And don’t say you’re nothing like Phelps….you are..you’re just not as in your face in person as he is. So when you look at Phelps and wonder why the man is so intolerant and hateful…remember, that’s the SAME WAY I look at you.
KS Grm… WHERE did I say even ONE WORD about Radical Moslems??? THIS is why you are a Bigot… You think you can just twist around something somebody says, and make it into what YOU want it to say…. Well, lady, YOU ARE SADLY MISTAKEN!!!
MY Point is very simple…. Christians, as you say, have missionaries spreading the message around the world….
MOSLEMS have missionaries spreading their message around the world… It is a DIFFERENT message than Christianity… and Christians dont LIKE IT!!
But, if the rest of the world told US what WE tell Islam, about spreading their “gospel” we would get MAD…..
Now, try to REFUTE THAT!!!
THIS TIME, READ IT RIGHT!!! AND STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY DAMN KEYBOARD…. I AM GETTING VERY FED UP WITH YOUR TYPE!!!
What people miss from the Biblical Languages
The Biblical Hebrew word for day is “Yom,” which is translated 53 different ways into English. Often the Semitic peoples could use “Yom” to describe one day within a complete time period, such as the reign of a king. So which meaning is the correct one to use in translating Genesis chapters 1 and 2? Remember that the solar sun and moon are not created until the fourth day, so how can there be evening and morning without the solar sun?
I still want to know how Grm thinks talking about how someone has a mommy is the same as referring to sex.
Me too PMom
I’ve wondered that myself, Catherine… But you better ask one of these self proclaimed Bible Experts, that believes in the RIGHT JESUS if you want an answer… I would only be called “leading you the wrong direction”
And while we are at it, where did the light and dark come from that are called night and day??? BEFORE sun and moon are created on Day 4… ???
Some of us believe in the “Power of Myth” as Joseph Campbell calls it… Others dont!!
Ahahahaha…
I think biblical creationism should be taught as one of the many theories of the earth’s origins. I sincerely do, its a damn cool story.
I think it should be taught along with all the other major creation stories of other religions.I think that this should be taught in a comparative religions or philosophy class.
I think it would be quite interesting to expose young children to many different ways of thought and let them hash out the details at home. A new generation of avid questioners, what could be better?
However, I promised myself to never get into another evo-creation debate, and so I’ll leave it at that :)
In the beginning there was Chas and it was written.
A voice from the distance shouted out, “My bad! Used the wrong mould again!”
:)
But, if the rest of the world told US what WE tell Islam, about spreading their “gospel” we would get MAD…..
Posted by: Chas.
So what is it “WE tell Islam”?
Don’t fly into our skyscraper anymore. Don’t let chas see this though. He goes ballistic when challenged.
Pmom let me see if I can walk you through this. Being a mom or a dad in a straight home is a little different that in a gay or lesbian home I would imagine. When you have answered your daughters questions about where her baby brother came from with the statement that it is something special that happens between mom and dad and you go on into a little detail as she asks. Need I go on. When she heard that Heather had two moms then she asked if something special happened between her two moms.
Inquisitive little kid she was. Do you get it now or I could draw you a picture. We all thought 5 was a little young to talk about sexual orientation. I know all of the libs will jump my case and talk about how intolerant I am. Save the space. Pmom kept pushing for an explanation and I gave her one.
Max,
There’s many, many different faiths out there. Which one should be taught?
Is it up to you to decide?
Posted by: Tom | September 17, 2007 at 05:23 PM
In public school, around 5th grade, I was taught about differing theories of evolution and creation.
Creation was taught in a generic sense, “some people believe in God and that God created the Earth”. This is true.
“Some people believe in Evolution and big bang theories and the like”, which is also true.
People have a variety of beliefs and since there is no one hard and fast provable truth here, it was honest and open to show a variety of beliefs.
Keep an open mind, discover for yourself.
What’s wrong with that?
How DARE we go into Moslem nations, and tell them that they cant do with THEIR religion what many Christians do… Make the attempt to spread it world wide…
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 05:41 PM
There’s one big difference Chas. I don’t know of any Christians who want to spread Christianity thru violence and force.
Muslims do that as part of their mission. Christians, Jews, and all other faiths, are the infidels of the world that need to be eradicated.
Just a little difference, that I wanted to make sure wasn’t overlooked.
How DARE we go into Moslem nations, and tell them that they cant do with THEIR religion what many Christians do… Make the attempt to spread it world wide…
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 05:41 PM
How many Moslem nations allow non-Moslem missionaries? Very few, if any. Attempting to convert a Muslim to a non-Muslim religion is a capital offense in many of those countries. A Muslim converting to a non-Muslim religion is a death sentence for the former Muslim. There was a good example not too long ago where a Muslim converted to Christianity and was going to be executed. After a world appeal, the execution was stayed by their govt. using the excuse the Muslim was mentally ill and therefore not of his right mind when he converted.
Christians in our ally Moslem countries like Saudi Arabia are not allowed to practice their Christianity in public.
That’s my point, Get the Facts… And we dont want the Moslems spreading their Gospel here in our world, either…
NO Christians dont consider it a Capital offense… anymore…. And not ALL Moslems believe in that either…
Look… The point is, we want to spread our Gospel anywhere we go… So do Moslems… Christianity and Islam are the two biggest “proselyting” religions in the world…
Naturally, there is going to be adverse relations between those two religions… The better alternative is something like what is in Turkey… Christians are allowed to be there… but are not allowed to hold Public Worship events… and are not allowed to attempt to convert Moslems or other non-Christians publicly…
It takes a certain breed of missionary to work in that environment, but there have been many doing that for many years, and running schools, etc.
It CAN be done… but not if the Christians take the attitude that we have the ONLY RELIGION in the entire world that is valid… we HAVE to learn how to be tolerant of other people’s beliefs…
From what I see on this Blog, that seems hard enough for SOME to do with alternative expressions of Christianity, let alone other religions!!
The better alternative is something like what is in Turkey… Christians are allowed to be there… but are not allowed to hold Public Worship events… and are not allowed to attempt to convert Moslems or other non-Christians publicly…Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 09:52 PM
Ok Chas, how much of the US Constitution do you want to throw away?
Chas I just feel so sorry for you. Nobody can seem to keep your facts straight. Must be hard being you.
You’re such a tolerant man. I don’t know why this keeps happening to you! Maybe if we prayed for you.
Which God would you like us to invoke. I have been searching for several Jesus’ and am having trouble finding more than one in the Christian faith. I am widening my search. Will get back to you later.
Have a good night.
Moslems do spread their word here. There is a mosque in Wichita and I have yet to see any non-Muslims preventing them from spreading their religion or publicly practice their faith in the area.
“The better alternative is something like what is in Turkey… Christians are allowed to be there… but are not allowed to hold Public Worship events… and are not allowed to attempt to convert Moslems or other non-Christians publicly…”
This is a better alternative? Christians are not allowed to publicly practice their religion while the Muslims are? How is this better? At least in America Muslims are allowed to practice their faith in public and are allowed to convert non-Muslims.
“It CAN be done… but not if the Christians take the attitude that we have the ONLY RELIGION in the entire world that is valid… we HAVE to learn how to be tolerant of other people’s beliefs… ”
Muslims take the Exact same attitude you describe, but I don’t see you putting them down for it. If it okay for them, then it should be okay for Christians. If it is not okay for Christians, then it should not be okay for Muslims.
Former Dem don’t confuse Chas he has trouble with more than one train of thought at a time and tonight it’s that we are a big bad capitalist nation imposing our will on the rest of the world despite any evidence to the contrary. But hang in there tomorrow he will be back with a different position.
I didnt say it is OK for EITHER to go on as has been for far too long… BOTH need to exercise tolerance… Neither will be tolerant of the other, unless, and until we get the idea through our heads, and theirs, that neither one of us has the ONLY ONE TRUE RELIGION!!! That there is room on this planet for MANY religions… and let people make their own choices….
Grm… you friggin liar… AGAIN!!! I havent said one word about capitalism at all… I am talking RELIGIOUS self-righteousness that spawns differing world views, and makes for problems between peoples… This is NOT about capitalism…Cant you get that simple FACT through your thick skull????
Hey, KsGrm…. I double dog dare you to go waltzing into Wichita Interfaith on Broadway, in Wichita, and spout off at them the way you try to spawn off your very narrow view of religion on THOSE folks… And they will give you an eye opening, like you have never seen before…. THEN come back here and tell me that YOU and others like YOU have the only lock on Religion in this town!!! YOU will learn very fast, how WRONG and how narrow and limited YOU have become…
Now, will you do that??? At least give yourself a CHANCE to see what I am talking about here???
Well darn it Chas the other day someone said the reason the towers were struck was because they represented our capitalism. I was trying to help you out because everyone is having so much trouble with your post. Pardon my bad.
Ok Chas, how much of the US Constitution do you want to throw away?
Posted by: Max | September 17, 2007 at 09:55 PM
=======================
NONE Max… I am talking about a model for the other Islamic nations in the Middle East… We have open freedom of religion HERE…. at least on paper, and in the Courts… My post that you reference has nothing to do with what WE have here…
Chas sorry you are having such a hard time with my posts. Concentrate. I believe in one God, One Jesus Christ. That isn’t open to discussion.
That said I don’t care what you or anyone else believe or does or who they follow. Please show this same tolerance with others that don’t agree with you. If I come to your house and dragged you out at gunpoint and made you go to church with me and listen to my minister talk for an hour – now that is forcing my religion on you. I haven’t even invited you to join me for church.
Now you have a good night at that Interfaith Inn on Broadway and keep it real, ya hear.
I never said the towers fell because of our capitalism… You must have been reading somebody else… I never did believe that… I do know numerous writers have said that since 9/11 but I dont know as I would agree with that at all!!
All I can say for sure is that the ones who brought down the towers, HATE the US… for many, and numerous reasons… But, I dont know what most of those reasons would be… because they prattle on about so many things they dont like, its hard to pin them down!! Like most of the junk that was in OBL’s last alleged “video”
And you did it again… I said NOTHING about Interfaith Inn…
Woman, WHY cant you READ??? Is it age??? Or what??? WHERE did I say ANYTHING about Interfaith Inn??? I said WICHITA INTERFAITH!!!! OPEN YOUR EYES!!! I know thats hard for you to do…. But TRY IT ONCE….
I think I told you before…. I am happy with my faith…. You are happy with yours…. And thats the way it should be… But YOU have some piss ant burr in your saddle to try to get people to see something WRONG with my faith!!!
And YOU have the audacity to say I want people to agree with ME??? I just want you narrow minded yahooos to leave me and MY FAITH ALONE!!!
And stop bashing my for mine!!
BTW, I dont normally go to services where the preachers preach for an hour…. WAY too long!! ROFLMAO!!!!
Well, another early start for tomorrow… So,
Good Night, Good Luck, and God Bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
Chas, the High Priest of Intolerance
If yours is not the one true religion, them why do you practice it? Unless you use a different version of the Bible, doesnt your Bible show Jesus saying He is the way, the truth, and the light, and that no man can come to the Father, but through him? I
see very few intolerant Christians around, and many of the intolerant ones are the ones spouting tolerance for other religions, but not for other Christian denominations that disagree with their version of Christianity. At least one local Episcopal Church preaches tolerance of other religions, but does not practice said tolerance for other Christian denominations that dont follow their doctrine. There are plenty of other denominations and Christian churches that do the same.
You did not answer the second part of my question about it being okay for other countries that prevent Christians from practicing their faith and being able to convert Muslims.
” didnt say it is OK for EITHER to go on as has been for far too long… BOTH need to exercise tolerance… Neither will be tolerant of the other, unless, and until we get the idea through our heads, and theirs, that neither one of us has the ONLY ONE TRUE RELIGION!!! ”
You may not have said it was okay for either, but based on what you wrote, you only mentioned Christians, and not Muslims. If you felt that way, you should have mentioned both groups since we were talking about both groups.
I do not try forcing my beliefs on others, nor do I practice religious intolerance. I believe other people should do the same. Does your church and or you practice that same tolerance towards Christian groups/denominations that do not preach what you preach? The God of the Episcopal Church is the same God of the Southern Baptist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church, the Christian nondenominational Church, the Methodist Church, etc.
I see many liberal Christian churches and church leaders talking tolerance for other religions, but blasting other Christian groups that disagree with them. It is okay to be tolerant of other religions, but not tolerant of other Christians that do not follow your brand of Christianity?
Apparently the only way to force your way onto someone else is to hold them at gunpoint. Doesn’t have anything to do with making the laws we all must follow. Nooooo.
—————–
THAT is what you call sex ed Grm? Are you seriously, seriously ..nevermind.
That ’something special’ could be a dance of sprinkling fairy dust over the bed for all that kid knows…especially if you were so against sharing how babies are REALLY made. Sounds like YOU taught sex ed to your grandkids, not the teacher.
Perhaps if kid’s questions about life are too difficult for you to answer, you should’nt be having kids. It might be too much for you.
Heaven forbid the time come to explain to a child if they were born with both sex organs…or adoption.
Or worse, how diabetes works.
Chas you sleep tight now. Secure in the fact that if you should die before you wake… Well you know the rest I hope. Tomorrow will bring another day.
Somehow Chas I knew you would never set through a sermon preached by someone else. Afterall you know it all so don’t need anymore fuel for the spirit. Some of the rest of us aren’t that fortunate and I do believe in fellowshipping with those of like faith.
“If yours is not the one true religion, them why do you practice it? Unless you use a different version of the Bible, doesnt your Bible show Jesus saying He is the way, the truth, and the light, and that no man can come to the Father, but through him?”
I agree that it is intolerant of Muslims to disallow Christians in their countries, disallow the free practice of. And how’s that working out for them?
Notice Jesus didn’t say ‘read the bible literally and that is the way to God….or to follow Catholicism….or Baptists…
Yes, I know they were created after he lived.
It’s not the preaching… It’sd that HOUR you mentioned!! I was just at a service a week ago… heard a fine sermon delivered…
So, once again, you are WRONG!!!
ROFL!!!
Pmom you really shouldn’t act like such a know it all. It doesn’t come off well. I didn’t go into the entire conversation and don’t intend to do so here but surfice it to say she was asking questions about a subject she wasn’t old enough to ask about just because some liberal teacher with a social agenda thought she needed to know it.
Well guess what I wish they would teach your kids about creation then you might get the point. For heaven sakes. Look past the end of your nose.
You always bring in some extreme case like that is something I should regale my 5 year old granddaughter with. “Honey tonight we are going to talk about someone with multiple sex organs or maybe we can talk about childhood diabetes – by the way have sweet dreams” Educate your kids and let my family take care of mine.
My husband and I raised three sons, all married 20, 14 and 12 years, all college grads, no records, no drug arrests, no duis. No arrests for bombing abortion clinics. They aren’t even politically active. They aren’t angels but we must have done something right whether you agree or not.
Get a grip. Have a pleasant night.
Former Dem, what liberal churches are blasting is the intolerance of those who, like some on this Blog, seem so darned determined to be RIGHT, that they resort to making fun of those who dont share THEIR beliefs… Get your “bashing” in the right order…
You might say that all of those denominations have the same God… Just stretch that a little farther, and say ALL religions have the same God, but have different expressions of Faith in that God…. THEN you might be on to something!!
Chas you just never cease to amaze me. Who would have thought you had it in you.
Since you were also interested in my granddaughters sex education you might want to read the post I just made to Pmom. Just put your name in the first line.
Furthermore, Former DEM… I never said anything about Christians that I didnt say about Moslems… IF YOU PEOPLE WOULD ONLY READ… instead of reacting!!
“BTW, I dont normally go to services where the preachers preach for an hour…. WAY too long!! ROFLMAO!!!!”
If God gives you a message that lasts an hour or longer, shouldnt you preach it? What if God gives you a message that you know your congregation does not want to hear? What if God wants you to give a message to an important and influential church member that will be ill received?
I have attended church meetings where the pastor/priest preached for an hour or more. In many instances, the message should have been that long. I have been in other services where the pastor/priest preached for 15 minutes and that was way too long since they were preaching their agenda (both liberal and conservative pastors) and not God’s message.
I had no particular interest in your grand daughters sex education… I only made a comment about Heathers two mommies… Why do you keep on mis reading what I type here??? Is there a language barrier??? Or are your eyes giving you a problem???
people who routinely BASH Christians and Christianity: Tom [/snip]Posted by: Nathan | September 17, 2007 at 06:30 PM
Nathan,
Just because I routinely point out your arrogance and self-righteousness does not mean I “bash Christians and Christianity.” You are not all Christians. You _definitely_ do not represent all of Christianity, or even a measurable fraction of Christianity.
Criticizing _you_ is not the same as bashing Christianity, Nathan, and your claim that it is just shows how incredibly egotistical you are.
Every time I think you can’t be any more egotistical, any more self-righteous and arrogant, you surprise me with more.
Chas you just keep getting it wrong. I have neighbors who are muslim and we get along fine. They are both very active in the school here in town. We never argue and never talk religion. You see they admit to being muslims and live their lives in that way. You on the other hand admit to being Christian but said today that you didn’t know who Jesus was or something to that effect.
Do you see the difference?
Well, then, Former Dem… God can send me an email and tell me… And if I have a message that long, its better to break it down into 3-4 Sundays, instead of all at once… I am not going to argue on this Blog about something I have been doing for 30+ years… with a rank amateur that thinks GOD gives us sermons!! And POLITICS has no place in the Pulpit!!
Chas
“NATHAN — Do you believe in Jesus??? Of course you do…”
I believe that Jesus is the one True Lord and Savior. Do you?
“So, do you believe in baptizing Babies in the Name of Jesus??”
Yes.
“Do you believe in celebrating the Holy Eucharist, the Body and Blood of Christ, broken and shed for YOU???”
Yes.
“Do you believe in calling people forward to share in the Broken Body and Shed Blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist???”
Yes.
“See, I believe those things…
DO YOU????”
Yes.
See how easy it is to answer a question Chas?
Now, answer mine:
Is Jesus the one True Lord and Savior and the only way to salvation?
If I believe that God is a Golden calf, is that true? You did say: “God is whatever you conceive of him to be”
Why are you a Christian?
I see ONE THING… AGAIN… YOU dear lady, CNANOT READ WORTH A HOOT!!! I NEVER said anything about not knowing who Jesus is!!
WHY cant you ever get it right??? You should go work for Limbaugh… He could use your NON reading skills for his quotes!!
Chas your eyes must be getting tired. Pmom wanted to know what Heather having two mom had to do with sex ed and You piped in with a ‘me too’. Must have forgotten that. Well good night I’ve had all the fun I can stand.
You say that now Tom, but when the thread is about Homosexuality… it is not just about bashing me.
Nathan, GO SUCK AN EGG!!! I know darn well you dont believe half of what I asked you about!!
Chas,
You did say:
“The question isnt so much believing in Jesus… it’s WHICH Jesus… see???
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 04:26 PM”
“Furthermore, Former DEM… I never said anything about Christians that I didnt say about Moslems… IF YOU PEOPLE WOULD ONLY READ… instead of reacting!!”
Chas, I did read and did not react. Shouting does not become you and you seem to like doing it. And you still havent answered what I have asked twice now.
From your earlier post:
“It CAN be done… but not if the Christians take the attitude that we have the ONLY RELIGION in the entire world that is valid… we HAVE to learn how to be tolerant of other people’s beliefs… ”
Where did you mention Muslims in that quote? You only mentioned Christians, and in the section where you talked about Turkey, you did not appear to have a problem with the way the Turkish Muslims treat their Christian citizens. Your comment:
“The better alternative is something like what is in Turkey… Christians are allowed to be there… but are not allowed to hold Public Worship events… and are not allowed to attempt to convert Moslems or other non-Christians publicly…”
You do realize that to put forth an effective message, the length of the message makes a world of difference. NOBODY wants to listen to an hour long lecture on religion.
One of the first lessons I was taught when learning to teach adults…
“Adult attention span is only 7 to 20 minutes. “Chunk” your lecture into appropriate time blocks with small interactive activities interspersed. This refreshes attention span and provides student engagement with the material, opportunities to check for learning, and opportunities for critical thinking and problem solving. ”
http://www.rcmp-learning.org/docs/ecdd1140.htm
Nathan, since when does the Assembly of God churches believe in baptizing Babies?? Hmmm????
Chas,
“Nathan, GO SUCK AN EGG!!! I know darn well you dont believe half of what I asked you about!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 10:56 PM”
How do you know that? Come by my church and you will see for yourself that we do everything you just asked me about.
Grm, you’re the one who did the teaching on sex, not the teacher. Get over yourself. There was nothing wrong with what the teacher did. You just wanted to complain about gay parents.
Chas,
Woops, my bad. Didn’t catch the babies part.
We do baptize in the name of Jesus, just don’t see the point in Baptizing babies.
“…what Heather having two mom had to do with sex ed and You piped in with a ‘me too’.”
Yep… Thats what I said… has nothing to do with your granddaughter… Just like I said… tlking about Heathers two mommies… YOU better go read better, or else get new glasses… OR… get glasses!!!
Chas,
So answer my questions Chas.
Nathan,
Can you understand the distinction between criticizing people for their attempts to impose their misinterpretations of Christianity on those who disagree with them, and “bashing Christianity?”
Again, you do _not_ speak for all Christians. You do _not_ represent all of Christianity. You speak for one person: Yourself. When I criticize you for your statements, it has _nothing_ to do with Christianity, and has _everything_ to do with how you try to impose your beliefs on others.
Like I have said many times… You dont READ so good Nathan!!
I seriously doubt that you believe in the bread and WINE of Holy Eucharist as the Body and Blood of Christ, either!!
Very well Tom. We shall see.
Tom, I think we are wasting our time trhying to explain that to Nathan, and to Grm… Neither one of them seem to get that distinction!!
Bangs head against the monitor….
Nathan,
Find posts where I’ve attacked Christianity, or attacked people for being Christians. Paste them in.
Good luck with that.
Nathan, why should I??? You answered YES to questions you dont believe in… I am NOT going to answer your juvenile questions, for the benefit you will feel, in trying to prove me WRONG!!!
Chas,
Straight from the AG website:
“The cup represents Jesus’ shed blood and the washing away of our sins it accomplished. The cup reminds us our sins are not just cleansed once, but we experience a continual cleansing.”
“The bread represents Jesus’ body. The Scripture says, “By His stripes we are healed.” The bread of Communion reminds us we are healed by partaking and remembering His broken body. Is there anything magical in the wafer? No, but it is representative of His broken body.”
Now answer my questions.
Chas,
The difference between you and I is that when I make a mistake I readily admit to it and correct it.
How many days of posting about Social Security did it take for you to admit you were wrong?
It’s a LONG WAY from “representing” the Body and Blood of Christ… to sharing the Body and Blood of Christ…
Chas,
I ANSWERED your questions. Why are you so scared to answer mine?
Ummmm Nathan…. I wasnt wrong…. I merely didnt have one little parameter included in the NEW changes in SSA laws… and I admitted to that, with Vaughn’s help the NEXT DAY!!! So, ummmm ONE DAY, idiot!!
Chas,
Ignore the punk. He’s not worth your effort, really.
“Well, then, Former Dem… God can send me an email and tell me… And if I have a message that long, its better to break it down into 3-4 Sundays, instead of all at once… I am not going to argue on this Blog about something I have been doing for 30+ years… with a rank amateur that thinks GOD gives us sermons!! And POLITICS has no place in the Pulpit!!”
If God does not give you sermons, then where do you get them? Most of the pastors and priests I know tell me that their sermons are from God; they pray about the Scripture reading(s) for the week and seek God’s guidance on what to say. Some of them have 30+ years experience preaching and are from various denominations on both sides of the liberal/conservative fence. I am not a rank amateur even if I am only a lay person.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but it appears that if God gave you an hour long message to deliver one Sunday, or whichever day you hold services, you would not do it but would spread it over several weeks?
I did not specifically mention politics in the pulpit, but that is some of what I have seen and it has been from both liberals and conservatives pastors/priests.
Nathan, you stupid, arrogant little fool…. IF YOU HAVE READ WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE TODAY, YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHAT I BELIEVE!!!! I AM EXTREMELY CERTAIN NOW, THAT EITHER YOU CANT READ, OR THAT YOU HAVE AN EXTREMEL;Y LOW LEVEL OF READING COMPREHENSION…. OR YOU ARE JUST A JERK… GOTTA BE ONE OF THOSE…
Chas,
Even now you can’t admit you were wrong.
Of course we pray over the Lectionary readings… sometimes even have group discussions with others… but GOD doesnt GIVE us what to put into a sermon…. THAT is up to each of us as preachers… Get it???
I happen to know for a fact that Chas’s church does actually do communion…for all the same reasons you do Nathan. I know because we’ve actually attended the same church for a period of time.
Chas,
You said:
“God is whatever you conceive of him to be.”
So if I conceive of God to be a golden calf is God a golden calf?
You have yet to admit or deny that Jesus is the ONE TRUE Lord and Savior.
You have said several things which indicate you do not believe Jesus to be the ONE TRUE Lord and Savior…
So how can I already know what you believe?
I just did admit that, you dumb idiot… You really DONT have any reading comprehension…
Vaughn explained the problem… I wasnt aware of the LEGAL loophole changes… But I was only partially wrong…. And yes, Nathan, I DID say that!! MORE THAN ONCE!!!
Political Mom,
I have no doubth that Chas’s church does communion. He is the one questioning what my church does.
I simply want to know what Chas believes about Jesus, which shouldn’t be this hard for a Christian to answer, but he refuses.
NATHAN,
I’m still waiting for your answer…
“So NATHAN, exactly how many of the scientists in Avery’s piece *_ do _* call themselves “global warming skeptics”, and “do not agree with the concensus”? ”
One? More? Or zero?
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-915.html#comment-82968317
Well, for the gazillionth time, NATHAN…. IF that is what an individual conceives God to be, then for that person, THAT is what GOD IS!!!
Chas
“Ummmm Nathan…. I wasnt wrong….”
then I said:
“Even now you can’t admit you were wrong.”
then Chas says:
“… But I was only partially wrong….”
So which is it Chas? Don’t pretend like I can’t read. You keep changing your answers.
Well, another early start for tomorrow… So,
Good Night, Good Luck, and God Bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 10:25 PM
If I choose to worship the god of the dodge caravan…then that is my god.
And Chas is saying that he respects whatever I need to believe in, not that he believes it too.
TYPING IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS IS NOT CONSIDERED TO BE VERY CHRISTIAN-LIKE.
GO TO BE CHAS! YOU HAVE A BUSY SABBATICAL DAY AHEAD OF YOU TOMORROW!
No Nathan, YOU are waiting for ME to agree with you… How many damned times do I have to tell you…. WE DONT AGREE!!!!
And I was NOT telling you what your church believes… I already knew that… What I SAID was that what the AG believes about Communion, is NOT what we believe…. GET IT???
EARLIER… I said in my post, that ALL OF THESE THINGS… Baptism, Eucharist, all of those things and others… Are about WHO JESUS IS!!!
But, as usual, YOU DONT WANT TO READ THAT!!! And you still insist I havent SAID who Jesus is… OH, BUT, MY BOY, I HAVE SAID IT PLENTY!!!!
YOU APPEAR TO BE THE ONE WITH THE MENTAL/INTELLECTUAL BLINDERS ON!!
It’s really not that hard to figure out.
“Of course we pray over the Lectionary readings… sometimes even have group discussions with others… but GOD doesnt GIVE us what to put into a sermon…. THAT is up to each of us as preachers… Get it???”
I guess those other pastors/priests were wrong? What is the purpose of praying over the Lectionary if you dont want God’s guidance? I have been to church services where the preacher preaches as you said, but it is obvious that the message is coming from them and not God. I have also been to churches where the pastor/priest/preacher uses a ritual sermon, and it is the same sermon every year for that Sunday. If it is the first Sunday of the year, they recite the exact same sermon they used for the first Sunday of the last year.
Ok Chas….
Do you think that God really is a Golden Calf simply because that person thinks so or is that person worshipping a false idol?
Nathan, may your narrow minded God bless and keep you, in your isolated view of the world and of yourself….
Meanwhile, I will take mhy Jesus and go off to bed… and prepare for all the challenges of the new day coming tomorrow!!
AND BY THE WAY, KANSAS, OR BLOG EDITOR, OR WHOEVER YOU ARE IN YOUR STUPOR…. I AM BACK TO WORK… FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME… I AM OFF OF SABBATICAL, AND HAVE BEEN FOR OVER A MONTH, YOU IDIOT!!!
You do realize that to put forth an effective message, the length of the message makes a world of difference.
Posted by: political_mom | September 17, 2007 at 10:57 PM
AND it also helps if you have an intelligent message.
And for everybody else, again,
Good Night, Good Luck, and God Bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
People believe the ouija board actually moves their hands too.
If God really spoke to all these preachers, wouldn’t you think all the preachers would sound the same?
But they sound way totally different, now don’t they?
That’s my personal opinion on the matter. I have a friend who swears she heard God talk to her for the first time a few years ago. She says she knows I think she’s crazy. I told her, it doesn’t matter what I think.
Nathan, you stupid, arrogant little fool…. IF YOU HAVE READ WHAT I HAVE POSTED HERE TODAY, YOU KNOW VERY WELL WHAT I BELIEVE!!!! I AM EXTREMELY CERTAIN NOW, THAT EITHER YOU CANT READ, OR THAT YOU HAVE AN EXTREMEL;Y LOW LEVEL OF READING COMPREHENSION…. OR YOU ARE JUST A JERK… GOTTA BE ONE OF THOSE…
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:07 PM
CHAS, remember to complain about your own post tomorrow, so they can delete this.
And for everybody else, again,
Good Night, Good Luck, and God Bless; whatever you conceive God to be!!
Blessings all!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:19 PM
You Betcha! I’m sure it is really for sure Goodnite this time.
Ok Chas….
Do you think that God really is a Golden Calf simply because that person thinks so or is that person worshipping a false idol?
Posted by: Nathan | September 17, 2007 at 11:17 PM
=========================
Do you think you can find a more idiotic question to ask tonite, Nathan???
You think you are so smukin fart… and you are arrogant too…
Where did I say God is a golden calf??? I sure didnt say I believe God is a golden calf…
What I said is, If that individual believes God is a golden calf, then FOR THAT PERSON God is a Golden Calf….
That is up to THEM!!! NOT to me…. I dont mess around with praying to idols… Doesnt fit in with the idea of an Eternal God to my way of thinking… too easy to melt down into jewelry!!
BUT…. if it is a sacred symbol for somebody else… THEN THAT IS THEIR GOD…. AND IT IS NOT FOR YOU OR FOR ME TO TELL THEM THEY ARE WRONG!!! WE ARE SUPPOSED TO WORSHIP OUR GOD!!
I’m outta here!!!
You loose screws can all have a good time talking to your sock puppet ballet members!!
Blessings all!! Have a good day tomorrow!!
Ummmm Nathan…. I wasnt wrong…. I merely didnt have one little parameter included in the NEW changes in SSA laws… and I admitted to that, with Vaughn’s help the NEXT DAY!!! So, ummmm ONE DAY, idiot!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:05 PM
How many old people were given bad advice by you Chas? There may be some people out there who didn’t collect their fair share of Social Security because of you.
“You do realize that to put forth an effective message, the length of the message makes a world of difference. NOBODY wants to listen to an hour long lecture on religion.
One of the first lessons I was taught when learning to teach adults…”
Sorry I missed your comment earlier political mom. I know plenty of people that listen to hour long messages of a spiritual nature. I know the short attention span of today’s adults, but it does not apply to everyone.The content of the message is more important than the length of the message. Delivery of the message also affects the attention span of the listener. I have fallen asleep listening to much shorter boring messages of a nonreligious nature on the job. A dynamic or charismatic speaker can make an hour sermon seem like a 15 minute sermon. By the same token, an undynamic or uninspiring speaker can make a 10 minute sermon feel like a 2 hour ordeal.
No Nathan, YOU are waiting for ME to agree with you… How many damned times do I have to tell you…. WE DONT AGREE!!!!
And I was NOT telling you what your church believes… I already knew that… What I SAID was that what the AG believes about Communion, is NOT what we believe…. GET IT???
EARLIER… I said in my post, that ALL OF THESE THINGS… Baptism, Eucharist, all of those things and others… Are about WHO JESUS IS!!!
But, as usual, YOU DONT WANT TO READ THAT!!! And you still insist I havent SAID who Jesus is… OH, BUT, MY BOY, I HAVE SAID IT PLENTY!!!!
YOU APPEAR TO BE THE ONE WITH THE MENTAL/INTELLECTUAL BLINDERS ON!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:16 PM
Chas, another post here for you to request to be deleted.
AND BY THE WAY, KANSAS, OR BLOG EDITOR, OR WHOEVER YOU ARE IN YOUR STUPOR…. I AM BACK TO WORK… FOR THE HUNDREDTH TIME… I AM OFF OF SABBATICAL, AND HAVE BEEN FOR OVER A MONTH, YOU IDIOT!!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:18 PM
One more Chas.
You think you are so smukin fart… and you are arrogant too…
Where did I say God is a golden calf??? I sure didnt say I believe God is a golden calf…
What I said is, If that individual believes God is a golden calf, then FOR THAT PERSON God is a Golden Calf….
That is up to THEM!!! NOT to me…. I dont mess around with praying to idols… Doesnt fit in with the idea of an Eternal God to my way of thinking… too easy to melt down into jewelry!!
BUT…. if it is a sacred symbol for somebody else… THEN THAT IS THEIR GOD…. AND IT IS NOT FOR YOU OR FOR ME TO TELL THEM THEY ARE WRONG!!! WE ARE SUPPOSED TO WORSHIP OUR GOD!!
Posted by: Chas. | September 17, 2007 at 11:23 PM
How many Gods are there?
Why would anybody ask for a perfectly clear and concise post to be removed?
Chas usually asks for his own stupid posts to be removed the next day, after he sobers up.
“If God really spoke to all these preachers, wouldn’t you think all the preachers would sound the same?”
No they would not and why should they? God has different messages for different people at different times. People also interpret the same sermon in different ways. You may get one message out of the sermon and I may get a different message. That does not mean either one is wrong about what the message was, it just means that we needed to hear different parts of the message.
Another example is several sermons I heard recently. They all use a Lectionary that looks like the one Chas referenced. If it isnt, it is pretty close. One priest went off on a tangent on a different verse than the one he was supposed to be preaching on. Some times the sermons are spot on the readings in question. Other times, the sermon is so far off base that the minister fails to connect it to the readings.
Well, it looks to me like there are a lot of intolerant people here, who have a one track mind on religious ideas, and cant see the reality that there are many understandings of religion in this world. And it looks to me like those who are intolerant are so pathetic that they cannot do anything better than attack a different blogger who has a different view of the world.
I dont think this Blog is run very well. There does not seem to be a monitor here. Just remember, the world is full of many people, who have many beliefs. Not all of them are like those here who are exhibiting their intolerant views.
I’m not gonna read 250 posts here. Sounds like everybody lost track of the issue of evolution and its opponents.
Evolution is a scientific approach to explaining how we got here.
Creationism & “Intelligent” Design” cannot exist except with religious overtones.
Religion has its place. Religion might be good, even an essential, aspect of the human condition.
But religion is not science.
It’s a big world we live in. It’s even a bigger universe. Unless you think your brain is an adequate substitute for the mind and will of “God,” we mere mortals are reduced to slicing up the Universe and approaching it partially.
If you want to concentrate on theology, groovy. But it isn’t science. If the music of Bach, Beethoven, and the Beatles suggest to you a magical moment of touching a universal truteh, run with it. But it isn’t science.
I’ve read papers that attempted to analyze Bach fugues mathmatically. Maybe they were on to something there, but that doesn’t mean you should be forced to teach Bach in high school Geometry classes.
Creationism relies on beautiful poetry, metaphor, and sociological retrospective of an important component of Western Civililization. So teach it.
But it’s not *science.*
“I dont think this Blog is run very well. There does not seem to be a monitor here. Just remember, the world is full of many people, who have many beliefs. Not all of them are like those here who are exhibiting their intolerant views.”
Agree 100% on both points. The Eagle could make this a great blog if they monitored it better and removed the intolerant stuff, but they appear to be taking a hands off approach. They do a better job of monitoring the Online and other comment sections outside of the blog.
The sad thing is that some of the posters intentionally provoke other posters. I post to get clarification on a poster’s point and see no benefit in attacking their beliefs, whether political, religious, or otherwise. As the saying goes Dont Feed the Trolls and they will soon leave. I think we could lose at least a third of the regular posters if everyone followed this rule.
sugar, it is more than intolerance, it is hate and that is worse than intolerance or maybe an outgrowth of intolerance. I have seen some posters say since the other side hates me or my friends it is okay to hate them back. I have yet to figure out how hating someone else because they hate you makes it a better world. Or how hating someone for this reason makes it right.
Nathan,
Do Christians who believe “Jesus is the ONE TRUE Lord and Savior” tell LIES???
Nathan posted: “I beleive the HUNDREDS of credible peer reviewed scientists who do not believe the so called ‘concensus’ ”
NATHAN, prove that you did not tell a lie, by posting a link to those “HUNDREDS of credible peer reviewed scientists”.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/09/open-thread-915.html#comment-82968317
“I’m not gonna read 250 posts here. Sounds like everybody lost track of the issue of evolution and its opponents.”
Long Time Poster, First Time Lurker, according to some regular posters there are only three topics: guns, God, and gays. I would add the fourth g, global warming. I dont know why the Eagle bothers to post anything but those four topics since the vast majority of new topics devolve into one or more of those four areas. The other option would be for the Eagle to monitor the topics and delete all offtopic posts like many discussion boards and blogs currently do. Permabanning a few trolls and flamers would go a long way to cutting down the offtopic posts.
If I was a pastor, or priest, or rabbi, I would not be posting religious material on this blog without expecting to get criticized for my religious views if they do not appear by some to be consistent with my political views.
And after having represented myself as a religious leader, I would not be responding to such criticism in an inappropriate way.
Thus ends the lesson for this evening.
“Former Dem supporter” –
It’s like the final line in my all-time favorite movie:
“Forget it, Jake. It’s Chinatown.”
These forums (fora?) will always lose track of the issue at hand. It’s a shame, but that’s what happens.
My post simply wanted to clear the virtual chalkboard and get us back to the basic flaw of creatisionists (a flaw I suspect they’re depending on): that *science* has its perameters for discussion and *theology* is not bound by the restraints of science.
For that reason, and that reason alone, creationism has no place in *science* classes.
As with internet forums (fora?), the issue gets off on tangents. The participants in the debate get distracted with minutia.
We’re pretty complex organisms, we humans. And there’s no way you can read, say, “To Kill a Mockingbird,” without reassessing your attitudes toward family and racism and bigotry and love. But IT ISN’T *SCIENCE!!!*
Doesn’t mean it’s not important. Doesn’t mean it’s not worthwhile. It just means that “To Kill a Mockingird” isn’t *science.*
Go ahead and believe in Genesis. Construct all sort of rationalizations when The Bible contradicts its lessons and messages. If it cooks for you, solid.
But don’t call it *science.*
That’s the only-est issue of the Kansas evolution debate.
My Two Bits:
Sometimes the only response to lunacy and intolerance is with harsh words, and stinging comments toward such lunacy and intolerance. After all, how else does one get their attention?
I recently had the privilege to see an amazing show on discovery, on seafloor creatures, as part of the “Blue Planet” series on the Discovery channel.
It was amazing to see the adaptions of some familiar creatures to that alien environment. Some creatures that were known for staying put became mobile (the only way to avoid predators). Others, such as the open-mouthed. . whatever the hell that was (I wasn’t taking notes). . .went from passively capturing creatures that floated into its orifice, to a full-fledged predatory “mouth,” that slammed shut, trapping its prey.
But that’s not natural selection. Can’t be evolution. Naw, OF COURSE NOT!
Ed,”You failed to understand what I said.Evolution is not just the physical adaption to the environment, but the evolution of the capacity to understand. IE: Increased numbers of senses and the world expands etc.We are only in the primal stages of intelligence and comprehension, therfore unable to perceive an end product of evolution or what that might consist of from a different and much more enlightened perspective.Am I too far over your head?Posted by: Ed Friedemann | September 17, 2007 at 07:29 PM
No Ed, you failed to understand what I said. Evolution has no goals, is not necessarily progressive, and the only criterion it acknowledges is survival.
Evolution of understanding follows the same rule; ideas survive and increase in complexity only on their ability to be understood. When they reach the point of absurdity (which they all must at some point) they begin the process of extinction. There are damn few ideas that survive the test of time intact, and those are always in danger from new (and sometimes predatory interpretations. We are currently witnessing the slow, agonizing collapse of a number of previously successful ways of thinking. Hopefully, in time new patterns of thought will rise to fill the vacated niches of the old. There is no guarantee that these will be any more right in the cosmic sense than the old ones; just more right for the moment. As long as any idea is left alive, it won’t reach that platonic perfection everyone wants it to. The universe (and the universe of ideas) is a dynamical system. the only perfect idea is a dead one!
Sometimes the only response to lunacy and intolerance is with harsh words, and stinging comments toward such lunacy and intolerance. After all, how else does one get their attention?Posted by: sugar
That rarely works, and I would speculate almost never. All it does is to incite the other side to respond in kind, and probably with as strong or stronger words and comments.