"One thing that has always baffled me about the Bush team’s war effort in Iraq and against al-Qaida is this: How could an administration that was so good at Swift-boating its political opponents at home be so inept at Swift-boating its geopolitical opponents abroad?
"How could the Bush team Swift-boat John Kerry and Max Cleland — authentic Vietnam war heroes, whom the White House turned into surrendering pacifists in the war on terror — but never manage to Swift-boat Osama bin Laden, a genocidal monster, who today is still regarded in many quarters as the vanguard of anti-American ‘resistance.’"
– New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman on how bin Laden has a better image in the Middle East than America does
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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186 Comments
So, The Moustache (aka Tom Friedman) doesn’t get why the Bush Administration chooses to finish off its domestic opposition while leaving Bin Laden where he is. I see.
Why can’t CF2K write for the NYT? He may not have a moustache, but he makes a lot more sense.
The NYT doesn’t hire people that write in the third person like Muppets.
lmao KS
Q: What is the one issue that will keep Republicans in office?A: Terrorism
Who would have voted for Bush in 2004 if 9/11 had not have happened?
Bush doesnt think about bin laden anymore.
The only issue the Democrats have is the National Health Scare Program.
Dems are low on issues and high on rhetoric this election cycle.
They are running off the fumes of George Bush bashing and haven’t realized yet that George Bush is not running against them in the next election.
Kansas I have a theory about CF. He posts under several names and has to remember who he is today. Thus the third party posts. Either that or he is having a real conflict about who he really is (multiple personalties). I think he would be a great contributor for the NYT. His philosophies match their.
Hint:
Kerry messed up, after he was in Vietnam, no matter what happened when Kerry was “in country” —
Kerry’s own “brothers in arms” did him in. Kerry lost the Veteran vote, hands down.
Max Cleland? Did he get injured in actual combat? No! But he was injured serving his country and he deserves respect for that.
However, EVERY VA hospital is full of people I would not vote for, people that I still respect, greatly.
Just because someone has served well, taking orders from the chain of command, does not make them fit to WRITE those rules or laws or to Commit US troops, or to pass any law, for that matter.
Max Cleland lost because Max is a liberal.
That is his right.
It was the right of the voters to toss him out of office.
Get over it!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1180774/posts
And you want Rove to use “propaganda” or advertising to get Moslems to dislike Osama?
Wow!
This is like attacking FDR for the popularity of Hitler, in Germany!
You libs are really nuts!
Kerry sided with the Viet Cong against combat troops that were still in Vietnam.
To “Swift Boat” Osama Bin Laden, you would have to prove that OBL was, perhaps, in the White House sleeping in the Lincoln Bedroom, eating bacon for breakfast and drinking with Infidels while plotting the defeat of his “comrades” in Jihad.
After all, that is what John Kerry did when Kerry met with the Communists in Paris (While still in the Naval Reserve??)
“Osama bin Laden, a genocidal monster, who today is still regarded in many quarters as the vanguard of anti-American ‘resistance.”
Consider this: Osama bin Laden is not a “genocidal monster” but just another piss-off Arab.
The category of “terrorist” is what is making the general public receive such a twisted picture of the struggle going on in the Middle East.
The ‘terrorist” garbage was invented by the Israelis to cover their butchery, which they practice on the Arabs {mostly Palestinians }.
The barbaric attack Israel orchestrated against Lebanon should have cleared-up who is the villain in the Middle East.
When the Middle East is viewed objectively, the Israelis are the problem.
I can say that but the MSM can’t { unless the want to lose their jobs }.
“This is like attacking FDR for the popularity of Hitler, in Germany!
Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 11:45 AM ”
A more appropriate analogy would have been ‘this is like attacking FDR for not trying to combat the popularity of Hitler in Germany when FDR had the resources and skills to combat the popularity of Hitler in Germany’—–
Ed,Other than the Isreal/Arab parts of your post, you are pretty much right on about terrorism.
“John Kerry and Max Cleland — authentic Vietnam war heroes”
Sorry, I have to go throw up.
I just tell the truth, so sooner or later you’ll own-up to it.
Ed
“Palestine” was NEVER an independant country.
There have ALWAYS been Jews in Palestine or Israel, even if they had to hide their beliefs, at times.
Jordan, Egypt and other Arab countries have kicked out or expelled Palestinians. They are treated like dogs by other Arabs, they are viewed as unwanted trouble-makers.
The most common cause of death, in Gaza, is “honor killing” or the brutal murder of moslem women by moslem men for “dishonor” to the family.
“Honor Killing” has caused far more death than the Israeli Army, when Israel defends itself.
Israel is a tiny sliver of land. Israel contains not a drop of oil.Israel is the most successful economy in the Middle East because of DEMOCRACY.
Islamic controled countries are failures.
Failures need someone to blame, so they blame Israel.
I think they did a pretty good job of combating the popularity of Hitler in Germany, don’t you? Five years after we entered WWII, I’d say Hitler was pretty unpopular. We’re going on 6 since 9/11 and Bin Laden is more popular than Bush.
So you Bush supporters tell me what exactly is going on here.
So you Bush supporters tell me what exactly is going on here.Posted by: leftcoaster
Gee, I don’t know; could it have anything to do with the “Blame Bush for everything” crowd?
The saddest part of the Swift Boat tactic is that in America’s political class, where heroism can do so much in providing role models for American youth, one more source of heroes has been lost forever. Namely, war heroes.
Thanks to Karl Rove, all future American political campaigns will be free to throw shit on the wall. Whether the shit belongs there or not is determined solely by the quality of the marketing campaign that follows.
War heroes are no longer valued in American civic life. All future political campaigns are now free to second-guess the military’s judgment in any way that works.
Thanks you dipshit you Karl Rove. You apparently feel free to employ this dispicable tactic against Americans, yet you fail to see its value against *real* enemies.
Talk about a “blame America first” party/campaign/candidate. I believe George W Bush, by his proxy Karl Rove, has vaulted both the GOP and his legacy to the head of that line.
Left one reason could be the main stream media. HOw many positive articles do you see about Bush and how many negative articles do you see on BinLaden? You might just answer your own question.
Pedant
Max Cleland was injured as a result of an accident, not by enemy fire. He was not a “war hero” in the classic sense.
John Kerry gave aid and comfort to the Enemy, while still serving in the Navy Reserve.
John Kerry also, knowingly, encouraged “witnesses” to lie about Vietnam, even when he knew those “Veterans” had never stepped foot in Vietnam, or never saw combat.
John Kerry pulled a Benedict Arnold.
I am sure Benedict Arnold did some brave things on the Battlefield.
Benedict Arnold, however, will be remembered for crossing over to the enemy.
Econ101,
Max Cleland was injured during combat operations. His unit had taken fire. Your attempt to run Ann Coulter’s slander against Cleland by a specious disction involing “actual combat” isn’t going to fly here.
“The 2nd of the 12th Cavalry was engaged in a combat operation at the time of this incident. Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone (some might call the entire country of Vietnam a combat zone). (Is Iraq a combat zone?) Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harms way.
As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don’t leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of “ownership” went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.
Maury Cralle’Battalion Executive Officer2d/12th Cavalry Battalion1st Air Cavalry DivisionDuring the assault on Khe Shan”
http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/02/con04074.html
Watch your facts, Econ101. It reduces your credibility to uncritically repeat distortions and lies emanating from Ann Coulter.
No surprise, by the way, that you have NO response to my takedown of your claims on the Republican relation to apartheid.
You got nothin.’ If you want to play, Econ101, you got to bring some game. And right now about all you have going on is posturing and blowhardishness.
And once again, damn Typepad signs CF2K and defaults to CF.
101
Even the Jews call them “Palestinians.”
Those 418 Villages and 17,000 homes { some of which had been there for 1000s of years } was Palestine, before the Zionist thugs started their bulldozing and killing spree.
Your Zionist “Palestine talking point” falls right on its Zionist face…
You whiffed on my point, Econ101.
The key is that the truth, whatever it may be, is irrelevant. All that matters is the quaility of the trailing marketing campaign.
Honorably served in the military? Doesn’t matter what the military record is, the ONLY thing that matters is the quality of your political opponent’s marketing. Your OPPONENT will decide whether you served honorably, thankyouverymuch.
Again, the GOP wins an election by taking the US one big fat leap further down the gutter.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/08/dukakis-has-his.html#comment-80749161
Again, the GOP wins an election by taking the US one big fat leap further down the gutter.Posted by: Pedant
Funny, I thought the GOP won the election because the majority of voting Americans picked them.
Has Brownlee finally gone over the edge?
The Bush Administration had nothing to do with the swiftboating of Kerry. In fact GWB stated that Kerry’s service was honorable and appreciated.
Come on, reporters – get your facts straight before you start erroneous topics.
LMAO
True, brian, marketing wins elections.
That said, in my opinion, marketing that serves to counter as sancrosanct an institution as US military service records – markeing that’s designed to make the military out to be either liars or incompetent judges of what constitutes honorable military service – is marketing that’s designed to tear yet another big hole in already tattered fabric of American civic life.
At the very least Rove could have employed his considerable and anti-American chutzpah to Swift Boat bin Laden in the 6+ years since 9/11.
Friedman’s piece is spot on.
Bin Laden never gave false testimony before Congress like Kerry did.
In one day, Israel fired 160 artillery shells into Gaza, the most overcrowded refugee camp in the world.
And you want to insult logic by saying “honor killings” create more Palestinians deaths than their Israeli tormentors?
Wine can get so cheap that becomes undrinkable { or should be }.
“Bin Laden never gave false testimony before Congress like Kerry did.
Posted by: Kansas | August 27, 2007 at 12:57 PM ”
He claimed executive priviledge.
“The most common cause of death, in Gaza, is “honor killing” or the brutal murder of moslem women by moslem men for “dishonor” to the family.
“Honor Killing” has caused far more death than the Israeli Army, when Israel defends itself.
Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 12:07 PM ”
This does smell of BS. Got any facts to back that up Econ?
Gee, I don’t know; could it have anything to do with the “Blame Bush for everything” crowd?—
I dunno, I’ll ask the “blame liberals for everything” crowd about that.
In one day, Israel fired 160 artillery shells into Gaza, the most overcrowded refugee camp in the world. Posted by: Ed Friedemann
In response to the Hamas terrorists killing how many Israeli?
Only a farshtinkener smuckwould utter such nonsense.
CFIT WAS NOT AN ENEMY GRENADE!
I already, up thread, said that I respected Max Clelands record, however, this was an AMERICAN grenade that went off by accident.
YOU are being dishonest. I never attacked Clelands record, not at all.
I respect Tilman, even if he was killed by “friendly fire” — you need to calm down!
Type in “honor killing” in your browser, but here is a start for you:
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm
101 says: “Israel is a tiny sliver of land. Israel contains not a drop of oil.Israel is the most successful economy in the Middle East because of DEMOCRACY.”
We have given Israel 1.6 trillion dollars since 1973 { CSM }.
Israel operates under the “mooch System” of economics.
“Mooch System”: Rob, steal, lie, cheat, misrepresent and pic your pocket with the other { and, of course, sell your top-secret weapons to China }.
The report that CF posted never claimed that the grenade in the Cleland incident was an enemy grenade – it stated clearly, as noted by the Battalion Executive Officer, that it was an American grenade dropped by a fellow soldier.
Mooch System”: Rob, steal, lie, cheat, misrepresent and pic your pocket with the otherPosted by: Ed Friedemann
You have A Loch In Kopp? Of course this is good business, no?And the people ess gezunte beit!
You must be a jealous chutzpah because you don’t have lot’s of friends with gelt?
Enemy fire;friendly fire-still dead. Enemy grenade;American grenade-still deadly..Bin Laden was never swift boated because Bush never ran against him for office. Running against him as Super Terrorist, it was more beneficial to build bin laden up, not take him down.When bush finally realised he wasn’t going to ever get bin laden, he conveniently dismissed him as someone he doesn’t even think about. Too late, bush with all his rhetoric, has built bin laden into a modern day folk hero in the muslim world, not doubt uder Allah’s protection!
WSYour point?
I said, basically, the same thing the “report” said, I just didnt go into as much detail.
Everyone who is willing to step in harms way, for his country, is a “hero” in my book.
However, those who get hurt, by the enemy, when going “above and beyond the call of duty” rank higher on the “hero” scale, to me.
What is wrong with that?
Econ101,
You’re being disingenous. If it really makes no difference to you whether Cleland was injured directly by enemy fire or by a fellow soldier’s mistake in letting his grenade drop, then why distinguish between the “classical definition” of being wounded by “enemy combat” versus being wounded by friendly fire or, as you call it, an “accident?”
Making the distinction at all allows you to minimize Cleland’s sacrifice while denying that’s what you’re doing.
The fact is, Econ101, Max Cleland grabbed for a grenade that he knew, in all likelihood, was going to explode, and that he did so in an active combat zone.
Econ101, maybe YOU need to stop playing these sneaky, Right Wing rhetorical games. They may work elsewhere, but they’re too transparent to get by on this blog.
EdWe give lots of money to Egypt, as well as to Jordan.
Any reason why they are not doing as well as Israel, that you can think of?
The amounts you speak of are not that much, compared to the GDP of Israel.
“CFIT WAS NOT AN ENEMY GRENADE!”
Snip…….
YOU are being dishonest.”
Snip…….
Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 01:31 PM
Why would you need to mention that it was not an enemy grenade? No one said it was.
So, what was CF being dishonest about?
Mr. Cleland’s actions likely prevented injury/death to others as well; grenades don’t care whose “side” they’re on, they do their damage indiscriminately.
American aid to Israel accounts for .07% of Israeli GDP, Ed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Israel
The doctor who treated Kerry, Louis Letson, is today a retired general practitioner in Alabama. Letson says he remembers his brief encounter with Kerry 35 years ago because “some of his crewmen related that Lt. Kerry had told them that he would be the next JFK from Massachusetts.” Letson says that last year, as the Democratic campaign began to heat up, he told friends that he remembered treating one of the candidates many years ago. In response to their questions, Letson says, he wrote down his recollections of the time. (Letson says he has had no contacts with anyone from the Bush campaign or the Republican party.) What follows is Letson’s memory, as he wrote it.
I have a very clear memory of an incident which occurred while I was the Medical Officer at Naval Support Facility, Cam Ranh Bay.John Kerry was a (jg), the OinC or skipper of a Swift boat, newly arrived in Vietnam. On the night of December 2, he was on patrol north of Cam Ranh, up near Nha Trang area. The next day he came to sick bay, the medical facility, for treatment of a wound that had occurred that night.
The story he told was different from what his crewmen had to say about that night. According to Kerry, they had been engaged in a fire fight, receiving small arms fire from on shore. He said that his injury resulted from this enemy action.
Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks.
That seemed to fit the injury which I treated.
What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry’s arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle.
I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.
The wound was covered with a bandaid.
Not [sic] other injuries were reported and I do not recall that there was any reported damage to the boat.
Oops — cross-post.
Cleland received the Silver Star and the Bronze Star. Here’s what each one requires:
“b. The Silver Star is awarded to a person who, while serving in any capacity with the U.S. Army, is cited for gallantry in action against an enemy of the United States while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing foreign force, or while serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The required gallantry, while of a lesser degree than that required for the Distinguished Service Cross, must nevertheless have been performed with marked distinction.”
b. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who, while serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party.
c. Awards may be made for acts of heroism, performed under circumstances described above, which are of lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star.”
http://www.americal.org/awards/achv-svc.htm
So what you’re saying, Econ101, is that your way of measuring whose achievements “rank higher” has nothing to do with the U.S. military’s.
WSClark,
Indeed. If all the Wingnuts (Econ101, KSGolfnut) have is “CF2K is a liar,” they’re going to need better evidence to make it stick.
Facts are a bitch…..
“bothered to note that Dr. Louis Letson, who is featured in the ad claiming to have treated Kerry for the wound that earned him his first Purple Heart and claiming that it was undeserved, was not the medical official who signed Kerry’s medical records for the wound.”
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408050007
There’s more…..
Regarding the Swift Boaters….
“none of the men had actually served on the Swift boats that Mr. Kerry commanded.” Adm. Roy F. Hoffman, one of the veterans in the ad, has even “acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry’s claims to valor,”
YOU are BOTH being dishonest about what I said.
I said, clearly, that I respected Clelands service.
I also said that he was not injured by the enemy.
He was called a “war hero” and I think it is only fair to weigh the facts.
There are plenty of real “war heroes” at the VA as well.
I would vote for very few of them, but I respect all of them.
Quit trying to paint me into a corner.
I think it matters how Cleland was injured.
The liberals shure thought it mattered how Tillman was killed, didnt they?
Again, they are both heroes, regardles.
However, didnt someone use the term: “war hero” upthread?
And did I not point out that there are many heroes I would not vote for?
Yes, I can see heroism in Max Cleland.
However, “war hero” is a term that deserves some clarification.
I said, clearly, that I respected both Kerry and Cleland for going in harms way, in Vietnam.
Both of them, however, were less than supportive of the US Military, when they returned.
(Kerry much worse, on that score, than Cleland.)
You libs attack Bush all the time, on his record.
Bush was trained to shoot down nuclear bombers. A job someone had to do. Bush volunteered for service in Vietnam, but they did not need his aircraft there.
You libs want to blast Bush, but you allow no criticism, whatsoever, of your candidates service records.
Everything I said here, today, is true.
Dan Rather can not say the same thing, concerning his comments towards Bush.
Neither can the rest of you liberals.
From November 17, 1968 to March 26, 1969 John Kerry served our nation with gallantry and honor.
Yes, most veterans had more time on the shitter than Kerry had in country (on a boat in the water).
But he still served which is more than many many others can say.
Phillip Brownlee what the same heck does the Swift Boats have to do with Bin Laden?
I’m not seeing the connection. Of course I didn’t go to journalism college either. Just a dumb old grunt.
But I’ll bet Bin Laden gets a smile reading it.
“Type in “honor killing” in your browser, but here is a start for you:…Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 01:38 PM “First sentence from your link:”Every year, hundreds of women and girls are murdered in the Middle East by male family members.”
Hundreds does not make it the most prevalent.”The most common cause of death, in Gaza, is “honor killing” or the brutal murder of moslem women by moslem men for “dishonor” to the family.”Honor Killing” has caused far more death than the Israeli Army, when Israel defends itself.Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 12:07 PM”
Would you like to apologize to your fellow readers for grossly misrepresenting the facts?
brian
What misrepresentation?
Do you claim that the Israeli Army kills more people than Moslem on Moslem “honor killing”???Where are YOUR facts?
Also, the post I gave you makes painfully clear that “honor killing” goes unreported.
If you kill a woman for “dishonor” how in hell does it “honor” your family to broadcast her “dishonor”??
We don’t attack Bush for his record, we attack him for his lack of record. But hey, a 2 year gap in the President’s biography doesn’t bother you at all.
And why do you feel the need to point out that McClellan was not wounded by enemy fire?
If you had a friend or family member wounded in Iraq under similar circumstances, would you point out the same?
John Kerry told people that he thought Vietnam would help his planned political career.
John Kerry videotaped himself in Vietnam — thinking of using that film for political gain, later, which he did.
I can respect his service and still think the man is shallow, dishonest and a bit odd.
leftcoaster, Bush has a far better record than Clinton.
Clinton “I loathe the military” Clinton the draft dodger.
That does not bother you.
But Bush, who wore the uniform, you attack him?
Again, you want protection for your candidates while you heep unproven trash on your opponents.
Econ101,
Like I said: the U.S. military, which is the agency charged with issuing military commendations, shares none of your ways of making the distinction as to who is and isn’t a “war hero.”
They’re the agency of record: you’re some hack spouting off on a Weblog.
First:
-The Administration didn’t swift-boat anyone.
A group of Vietnam War veterans who are just as much of war heroes as John Kerry and Max Cleland ( if not more ) formed a group to oppose John Kerry’s bid for the Whitehouse.
Second:
-The administration didn’t turn anyone into surrendering pacifists.
Many in the Democratic party are simply just that, surrendering pacifists. They didn’t need to be turned into anything, they were simply called out for being what they are.
Max lost because Max is a far left liberal.
The Republican Party and his opponent, NEVER questioned his service, during his failed reelection campaign.
Again, I just wanted all the facts on the table.
Stop the attacks, from the left, and we can negotiate.
— But, you NEVER will, because you think you have the right to trash Republicans with lies while we must be silent about your candidates!
Listen to the reich-wing whine, howl, b*tch and moan:
if Kerry had come home and said a lie–that we’re winning in Vietnam and we should stay the course and run as a Republican–the pedestal wouldn’t be high enough for this war hero.
But let him come home and say the dead obvious: that American soldiers committed war atrocities in Vietnam and that this reflected the futility and frustration of ever “winning” an unwinnable war, and no slander is bad enough to smear him with.
The reich-wing: no shame. no honor. no scruples.
BTW, I wonder if Friedman still thinks “the next six months in Iraq will be critical”?
How many Friedman units has it been now?
Nine . . . going on ten.
No, Econ101, a person who opposed the war in Vietnam and didn’t want to fight it does not bother me.
A person who supported the war and didn’t want to fight it — that describes most of the Bush administration (Cheney, Rusmfeld, Wolfowitz, and Bush) does.
Does it bother you that Cheney dodged the draft?
Good afternoon Captain!
Why don’t you tell us all one, just one, war atrocity that Kerry accused US servicemen of commitintg that ever proved to be true.
Just one.
Hank
CapnListenKerry DID lie.Kerry deliberately encouraged men who never stepped foot in Vietnam to claim that they were involved in war crimes.It is all proven history.
“Do you claim that the Israeli Army kills more people than Moslem on Moslem “honor killing”???Where are YOUR facts?
Also, the post I gave you makes painfully clear that “honor killing” goes unreported.
Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 02:32 PM”
1. I do not make claims unless I can back them up. I did not make any claims, only said yours seemed like BS.
2. The link you gave did say some go unreported. It did not say how many. How can you add an unreported number to their reported figure and claim that number of ‘honor killings’ is higher than any other number?
3. I don’t know the facts. I do know you have presented nothing to substantiate your claims.
VETERANS defeated John Kerry:
http://www.vvlf.org/default.php
You libs need to face the fact that Kerry tried to run on his WAR service, NOT his ANTI-WAR activity.
Kerry lied about Vietnam.
Kerry urged others to lie about Vietnam.
Kerry then tried to run for President as a “war hero” and other Veterans rose, in anger, against him!
If Kerry had run as a war protestor, he would NOT have angered the Veterans nearly as much.
Kerry was ashamed of his anti war past.
Kerry did not run on his anti war past.
Okay, Econ, you stick with that story.
Nobody but you believes it . . .
John Kerry also, knowingly, encouraged “witnesses” to lie about Vietnam, even when he knew those “Veterans” had never stepped foot in Vietnam, or never saw combat.
John Kerry pulled a Benedict Arnold.
Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 12:18 PM
Whoa, where’s your proof? If Kerry committed treason, then why is he still alive? Why wasn’t he tried for treason? I do believe that’s what you guys are always saying to us (Dems) when we mention that Bush should be impeached. Swiftboating = smear campaign. Just because it was said about Kerry, doesn’t mean a word of it was true!!!
brian,You asked for an apology, from me, for stating that “honor killing” or moslem on moslem deaths exceeded the deaths to Palestinians at the hands of Israel
You presented no numbers at all, as far as the Palestinian deaths at the hands of Israel.
Yet, you wanted an apology from me.
Your bias is showing.
You ASSUME that Israel is killing more Palestinians than the brutal Palestinians themselves, but you offer no facts at all.
“Bush volunteered for service in Vietnam”
Bush specifically noted on his TANG application that he did NOT want to be considered for overseas duty.
He never volunteered for ‘Nam.
TDTI refer you to the Vietnam Veterans Legacy Foundation, once again:
http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=33
Al Hubbard was a fraud. Kerry knew it. Kerry used Hubbard anyway, in Kerry’s anti war “testimonials”
http://www.vvlf.org/default.php?page_id=37
Just for fun, I do think Kerry’s DD-214 issue is strange, as well.My take on that one? Kerry got a “less than honorable” discharge. (In part for his protests while still in the Navy Reserve.)
When Kerry went back to either Clinton or Carter, to take advantage of the Carter “Amnesty” program and clean up his records, most of the military bureacrats did not have experience with medals, anymore. The war had long been over. So a mistake was made when the new, improved, DD-214 was typed up.
That, or someone was really pissed at Kerry, for using the Amnesty program, and they sabotaged him with the on “V” in history, on such a medal:
http://wais.stanford.edu/topics/week100804/kerrymilitaryrecord5factsnavy.htm
“Would you like to apologize to your fellow readers for grossly misrepresenting the facts?”For grossly misrepresnting facts.
You are right. I started from the mindset that a war between Palestine and Israel was killing more people than any so-called ‘honor killing’.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html“At least 4,228 Palestinians and 1,024 Israelishave been killed since September 29, 2000″
http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm“Given that honor killings often remain a private family affair, no official statistics are available on the practice or its frequency. According to a November 1997 report of the Woman’s Empowerment Project published in Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, there were 20 honor killings in Gaza and the West Bank in 1996.”
with the ONLY “V” in history, on such a medal
From Wikipedia:
The purpose of the Winter Soldier Investigation was to show that American policies in Vietnam lead to war crimes. In the words of one participant veteran, Donald Dzagulones, “We gathered not to sensationalize our service but to decry the travesty that was Lt. William Calley’s trial for the My Lai Massacre. The U.S. had established the principle of culpability with the Nuremberg trials of the Nazis. Following those principles, we held that if Calley were responsible, so were his superiors up the chain of command — even to the president. The causes of My Lai and the brutality of the Vietnam War were rooted in the policies of our government as executed by our military commanders.” The name “Winter Soldier Investigation” was proposed by Mark Lane[4] and was derived from Thomas Paine’s first Crisis paper written in December 1776.
Future Senator John Kerry, then a decorated Lieutenant in the Naval Reserve (Inactive), while later speaking before a Senate Committee, further explained “We who have come here to Washington have come here because we feel we have to be winter soldiers now. We could come back to this country; we could be quiet; we could hold our silence; we could not tell what went on in Vietnam, but we feel because of what threatens this country, the fact that the crimes threaten it, not reds, and not redcoats but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it, that we have to speak out.”
(109 Vets spoke out about atrocities they had witnessed, Kerry being one. Here are a few quotes.)
Stephen Craig: “…My testimony covers the maltreatment of prisoners, the suspects actually, and a convoy running down an old woman with no reason at all…”
Rusty Sachs: “…my testimony concerns the leveling of villages for no valid reason, throwing Viet Cong suspects from the aircraft after binding them and gagging them with copper wire…”Scott Camil: “…My testimony involves burning of villages with civilians in them, the cutting off of ears, cutting off of heads, torturing of prisoners, calling in of artillery on villages for games, corpsmen killing wounded prisoners…”
Kenneth Campbell: “…My testimony will consist of eyewitnessing and participating in the calling in of artillery on undefended villages, mutilation of bodies, killing of civilians, mistreatment of civilians…”
Fred Nienke: “…My testimony includes killing of non-combatants, destruction of Vietnamese property and livestock, use of chemical agents and the use of torture in interpreting prisoners…”
As for Kerry, he testified in the Fulbright Hearings that “They [fellow Vietnam Vets] told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.”
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/John_Kerry%27s_testimony_before_the_House_Foreign_Relations_Committee
At no time in the hearings does Kerry testify that HE SAW atrocities committed.
brian
Was there a war with Gaza this year or last year?
How many Palestinians were killed last year, by Israel, in the act of defending Israel?
How many Palestinian women were brutally murdered by their own families?
Dont have those numbers do you?
Moslems have always, every year, killed more Moslems than Israel has.
CapnKerry deliberately quoted frauds and pushed frauds to lie.
You can not deny that fact.
Snopes has a bit to say about the Swift Boating…
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp
And Kerry’s discharge…
“Kerry served with Admiral Schlech until the end of 1969, when he requested an early discharge from the Navy in order to run for a Massachusetts congressional seat. Admiral Schlech approved the request, and on 3 January 1970 Kerry received an honorable discharge, six months early.”
As I said, facts are a bitch.
Cap it was much worse than if he had said he saw it. He said that unnamed sources said that these atrocities were committed. In no court of law would that kind of hearsay we permitted but he went to the most public forum he could find and maligned the great military of our country putting their lives at risk. Inciting those who were shooting at our troops. No proof was offered and none was asked for. Just his word.
Can you not see what was happening here?
Does a person who tells the truth a few times get to lie and not be called a liar?
I do not have to disprove every one of Kerry’s “witnesses”
I have disproved one.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt.
And, Kerry KNEW he was lying, that is why Kerry, to the best of my knowledge, did not allow Hubbard to go under oath but still liked the publicity that Hubbards public lies gave to his anti-American cause.
“Moslems have always, every year, killed more Moslems than Israel has.
Posted by: Econ101 | August 27, 2007 at 03:36 PM ”
Dont have those numbers do you?
“How could the Bush team Swift-boat John Kerry and Max Cleland — authentic Vietnam war heroes, whom the White House turned into surrendering pacifists in the war on terror — but never manage to Swift-boat Osama bin Laden, a genocidal monster,”
“Swift-boat” Osama?? Brownlee, you can’t be asking that question in seriousness! Just because you phrase something as a question does not mean that the reader has to accept the stupid, biased premise.
I hope you are only writing that because you hope the stupidity will encourage posts.
You make my head hurt.
True as far as it goes, Ksgrm.
But aren’t you forgetting the proven examples of Vietnam war atrocities?
For instance, the My Lai massacre.
What Kerry is saying jibes with those proven events.
WSKerry was released to the RESERVES but there is NO RECORD of ANY Reserve service for Kerry, is there?
And KERRY never released his full file, he never signed the release form.
Therefore, it is Kerry’s own fault that we are left to figure this stuff out, on our own.
The simple fact is that Kerry had nothing to lose and everything to gain if he had come home and been silent: “I saw nothing, I heard nothing.”
He had a degree from Yale and a chest full of medals. He could have won that first race for Congress in a landslide if he had said nothing critical about the war.
But he chose to make it hard on himself forever after by telling the truth.
There’s no motivation for him to do that except because he believes in truth.
Proven false, Rossell, once again.
Econ–
Kerry refused to release his record to highlight that Bush wasn’t releasing his . . .
Funny how that never came out in the “liberal” media.
CapnYou sound like Dan Rather.
Rather and crew thought that Bush did something wrong.
Therefore, the evidence was just window-dressing and it did not matter to Rather if the evidence was false.
Now, because some bad things happened, as they do in ALL wars, you excuse deliberate fabrication??
HUBBARD LIED!
HUBBARD WORKED DIRECTLY WITH KERRY!
I don’t question that My Lai happened because there was factual evidence that it happened. I do doubt that Kerry was telling the truth. Afterall he had his videocam with him. If these things were happening around him he would have caught it on film. If indeed there were witnesses bring them forward. That happened with My Lai. I don’t believe him. I saw him with Hanoi Jane and saw his true agenda. He couldn’t prove anything and was allowed to spread baseless allegations. That wasn’t a proud time in congressional history.
CapnBush DID release his entire record.
Kerry did not release his because Kerry has always had something to hide.
For instance, look at the date on Kerry’s DD-214.
WS, another issue, release date from active duty and release date from reserve duty are two different things.
You do get a “DISCHARGE” from Active Duty.
I suspect that Kerry got a less than honorable release from Reserve Duty that was later rehabilitated through the Amnesty program.
I sure did not come up with this hunch all by myself.
However, it makes more sense than anything else, given the date on the DD-214 that Kerry decided to post, and the weird “V” on his Silver star, the ONLY such medal in history.
Of course there was no connection between the Bush administration and the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth:
“The SBVT propaganda smear campaign was financed by Sam Fox, a billionaire and hardline rightwinger.[5] The fact that Fox financed this project was revealed during his Senate confirmation hearings to become US ambassador to Belgium. Although the Senate blocked his confirmation pointing out Fox’s pernicious activities, George Bush appointed Fox over the authority of the Senate during a “Senate recess”. Furthermore, the PR company responsible for the SBVT (and whose bill Fox paid) was Arthur J. Finkelstein and Associates run by Arthur J. Finkelstein, the “dirty-tricks guy for the Republicans”. [6]
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Swift_Boat_Veterans_for_Truth
“…on August 20, 2004, a St. Louis Dispatch editorial, wrote the following: “The smear campaign was funded and orchestrated by a coterie of Texans with strong ties to the Bush family and the president’s political director, Karl Rove. The president should disown the ads and tell his friends that he wants them to stop. Mr. Bush can’t wash his hands of the Swift Boat Veterans’ smear because of his close personal connections with the principals. The Swift Boats Veterans on Mr. Kerry’s boat including the man he pulled from the river support Mr. Kerry’s version of events. So do the records documenting the medals Mr. Kerry received. The attack ads, by contrast are riddled with inconsistencies.”
http://bobgeiger.blogspot.com/2007/02/kerry-versus-swift-boat-benefactor.html
This describes the stunning hypocrisy of Arthur Finkelstein (the main producer of the SBVT program). While Rove and Finkelstein plotted turning out record numbers of evangelicals for the 2004 presidential election, Finkelstein himself was a closeted gay (unbelievable):
How do they manage to spout all that gay hatred against themselves and their lovers?
WASHINGTON, April 8 – Arthur J. Finkelstein, a prominent Republican consultant who has directed a series of hard-edged political campaigns to elect conservatives in the United States and Israel over the last 25 years, said Friday that he had married his male partner in a civil ceremony at his home in Massachusetts.
Mr. Finkelstein, 59, who has made a practice of defeating Democrats by trying to demonize them as liberal, said in a brief interview that he had married his partner of 40 years to ensure that the couple had the same benefits available to married heterosexual couples.
“I believe that visitation rights, health care benefits and other human relationship contracts that are taken for granted by all married people should be available to partners,” he said.
He declined further comment on the wedding, which was in December.
Some of Mr. Finkelstein’s associates said they were startled to learn that this prominent American conservative had married a man, given his history with the party, especially at a time when many Republican leaders, including President Bush, have campaigned against same-sex marriage and proposed amending the Constitution to ban it. Mr. Finkelstein has been allied over the years with Republicans who have fiercely opposed gay rights measures, including former Senator Jesse Helms of North Carolina, and has been the subject of attacks by gay rights activists who have accused him of hypocrisy. He was identified as gay in a Boston Magazine article in 1996.
http://www.democrats.com/node/4224
http://www.gainesvilletimes.com/news/stories/20070509/localnews/172550.shtml
Family mourns slain soldier: Harkins earned Bronze Star with ‘V’ for valor before death in Iraq
By ASHLEY COXThe Times
Why is this item relevant?”Cdr Jadick shows how any instant can change your life during the battle of fallujah. The story of him and his team of 54 Hospital Corpsmen in the battle of Fallujah with Battalion 1/8 Marines is inspiring. CDR Jadick is a US Navy doctor who was awarded the Bronze star with V for Valor. Great book.’”
http://www.amazon.com/gp/associations/admin/list-associations.html?ie=UTF8&cid=A2KUCDIKDHY8T5
“I suspect that Kerry got a less than honorable release from Reserve Duty that was later rehabilitated through the Amnesty program.”
Based on what?
Provide a credible link.
KsGrm — You said: “Afterall he had his videocam with him. If these things were happening around him he would have caught it on film.”
How, please tell, could have had something with him, that wasnt on the market at the time?
Bronze Star MedalReplacement Recognition Application Form
INSTRUCTIONS:
Does your document indicate the Combat “V”:Yes, Combat V for Valor was awarded. (The V device will appear on the Recognition replacement.)No, Combat V was not awarded
http://www.amervets.com/bs2.htm
Something tells me that contrary evidence makes no difference . . . Econ KNOWS that Kerry’s “combat V for valor” was a lie.
Don’t confuse him with the facts . . .
Capn
READ man, READ!
The Silver Star is NEVER given a “V” —
So enough with the Bronze “V” ok?
That is NOT topical.
George W. Bush stated it plain and simple – he does not even think about Bin Laden anymore. I still believe this is a slap in every American’s face and certainly a slap in the face of each victim of 9/11 and their families.
And yet there are still Bush supporters who think he is a moral leader. There are two kinds of morals – good and bad ones.
Maybe I am looking at Bush upside down and bad is good? Maybe that is why Bush was reading the book My Pet Goat upside down? To Bush upside down is really right side up? No wonder our country is in trouble.
How, please tell, could have had something with him, that wasnt on the market at the time?
Posted by: Das | August 27, 2007 at 03:59 PM
While a swift-boat commander in Vietnam, Sen. John Kerry filmed re-enactments of combat which Democrats plan to use in the official video introducing their presidential nominee tomorrow night in Boston.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39683
I don’t know why don’t you tell me? A camera that takes videos would be a video camera – shortened to videocam.
World Net Daily – where you can buy pills to cured artery blockage without surgery for just $0.24 per day.
Right.
Vengence and National Defence are two different things.
We could have killed OBL and still might have gotten attacked, again.
OBL did not start Islamic Terrorism and it won’t be over when we prove OBL is dead.
As long as people are afraid there will always be terrorism
HOLY COW–Senator Larry Craig (R-ID) pleads guilty to a misdemeanor disorderly conduct, for SOLICITING SEX in a men’s restroom.
“According to the incident report, Sgt. Dave Karsnia was working as a plainclothes officer on June 11 investigating civilian complaints regarding sexual activity in the men’s public restroom in which Craig was arrested.
Airport police previously had made numerous arrests in the men’s restroom of the Northstar Crossing in the Lindbergh Terminal in connection with sexual activity.
Karsnia entered the bathroom at noon that day and about 13 minutes after taking a seat in a stall, he stated he could see “an older white male with grey hair standing outside my stall.”
The man, who lingered in front of the stall for two minutes, was later identified as Craig.
“I could see Craig look through the crack in the door from his position. Craig would look down at his hands, ‘fidget’ with his fingers, and then look through the crack into my stall again. Craig would repeat this cycle for about two minutes,” the report states.
Craig then entered the stall next to Karsnia’s and placed his roller bag against the front of the stall door.
“My experience has shown that individuals engaging in lewd conduct use their bags to block the view from the front of their stall,” Karsnia stated in his report. “From my seated position, I could observe the shoes and ankles of Craig seated to the left of me.”
Craig was wearing dress pants with black dress shoes.
“At 1216 hours, Craig tapped his right foot. I recognized this as a signal used by persons wishing to engage in lewd conduct. Craig tapped his toes several times and moves his foot closer to my foot. I moved my foot up and down slowly. While this was occurring, the male in the stall to my right was still present. I could hear several unknown persons in the restroom that appeared to use the restroom for its intended use. The presence of others did not seem to deter Craig as he moved his right foot so that it touched the side of my left foot which was within my stall area,” the report states.
Craig then proceeded to swipe his hand under the stall divider several times, and Karsnia noted in his report that “I could … see Craig had a gold ring on his ring finger as his hand was on my side of the stall divider.”
Karsnia then held his police identification down by the floor so that Craig could see it.
“With my left hand near the floor, I pointed towards the exit. Craig responded, ‘No!’ I again pointed towards the exit. Craig exited the stall with his roller bags without flushing the toilet. … Craig said he would not go. I told Craig that he was under arrest, he had to go, and that I didn’t want to make a scene. Craig then left the restroom.”
In a recorded interview after his arrest, Craig “either disagreed with me or ‘didn’t recall’ the events as they happened,” the report states.
Craig stated “that he has a wide stance when going to the bathroom and that his foot may have touched mine,” the report states. Craig also told the arresting officer that he reached down with his right hand to pick up a piece of paper that was on the floor.”
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/1_1/breakingnews/19763-1.html
Guess Larry Craig’s proclivities have been an open secret for some time. Here’s an entry from a blog last year:
http://www.blogactive.com/2006/10/senator-larry-craig-whats-with-gay.html
And, is anybody surprised that Senator Craig has been a highly visible and vocal opponent of gay marriage and gay rights generally?
Under President Bush we have destoryed or captured much of the leadership of Al Queada.
Yet, apparently according to the democrats, the only measure of success is getting Bin Laden?
Yet, Killing or capturing most of the leadership of Al Queada, but not getting Bin Laden, proves Bush doesn’t care?
Is it any more obvious that the left here on this Blog can’t be reasoned with and simply have an irrational hate for Bush?
“simply have an irrational hate for Bush?”
It is not irrational to hate a man that promised to be a “uniter, not a divider” then proceeds to be the most divisive president in history.
It is not irrational to hate a man that vilifies the Democratic Congress for doing exactly what the Republican Congress has done.
It is not irrational to hate a man that disparages anyone that disagrees with him as being “god damned traitors.”
It is not irrational to hate a man that refers to the US Constitution as “just a god damned piece of paper.”
And the list goes on.
Sorry KsGrm, but if there was no video camera on the market, there could have been none used… It must, therefore, have been film – 16mm or 8 mm or 35 mm — but NOT video camera. Please get some things right.
As to the Silver Star, Kerry did not give the medal to himself. It came from the military. If it has a V on it, that too came from the military. Why dont one of you go off and google “military medals” and see what the disagreement seems to be. A medal was given. Is that not sufficient enough?
I knew a vietnam vet once who had a purple heart for a thumbnail lost by a hammer hitting it in a combat zone, working on a vehicle. He didnt really want it, but he got it. And it was a part of his war effort.
Why are you all nit picking so much? Kerry lost the damned election. Rightfully, or wrongfully. He came back from the war in Vietnam, and he told what he had seen. Why does that make him bad? He went to Paris to meet with people at the Peace Talks. That is more than Nixon did. So, why does that make him a traitor? In short, it doesnt.
“John Kerry videotaped himself in Vietnam — thinking of using that film for political gain, later, which he did.”
So, here comes another poster, with yet another reference to a type of video usage that just wasnt in use yet. He might have filmed himself, or had someone film him. I have known a lot of Vets who filmed themselves, or had pictures taken, or took the pictures themselves. For what use? Who the hell cares? It was their pictures. If it has some use later, wonderful! If it doesnt, it sits in some forgotten scrap book, on some closet shelf.
“It is not irrational to hate a man that refers to the US Constitution as “just a god damned piece of paper.”" WSCLARK
Liar.
Mr. Nathan, we captured, and then had tried, and finally executed, Mr. Saddam. He never lifted one finger against our nation. But the world cheered.
Mr. Osama instigated the attack on 9/11. Mr. Bush said repeatedly, on many occasions, in speech after speech, “We will hunt down the evil doers, and bring them to Justice.”
How many of those directly responsible for 9/11 have been hunted down, and brought to Justice?
All we have hung so far, are a handful of sorry Iraqi ex-leaders, and one time allies of Mr. Cheney and the USA.
And Mr. Osama still runs free. Do you not see this a bit strange, when Mr. Bush even says he is not all that interested in Mr. Osama anymore?
It is as if Mr. Osama was never a target of Mr. Bush at all. Or so it seem to me.
“OBL did not start Islamic Terrorism and it won’t be over when we prove OBL is dead.”
By your logic, it’s no use putting murderers in jail, is it?
Mr. Coaster – To whom is that interrogative addressed?
Bush is a true politician. He says to Kerry, “I honor your service” while handing the Swift Boat coordinator a back door appointment to the most coveted ambassadorship.
What a slime ball.
Sorry, that was Econ101 arguing that it doesn’t matter if we get bin Laden.
Bush went after Saddam like he wanted to catch him,
Bush went after OBL like he was swatting at flies
People tend to focus most on what they care about most.Bush’s actions, efforts, and public statements in relation to terrorism, bin Laden, and Saddam certainly fit with that.
“EdWe give lots of money to Egypt, as well as to Jordan.”
Not even .001% per-capita of what the Zionists mooch…
The “so-called chosen people” have been despised right from the get-go, no surprise there, judging by what they do…
And yet, Mr. Ed, I heard a Sunday TV religious man say once that the Hebrew Deity promised equal good fortune to both of the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael, from whom the current divisions in that part of the world seem to stem. Perhaps if they would compare notes in their religious writings, they could find some common ground?
Das
Saddam shot at our aircraft, flying in the nofly zone.Saddam financed suicide bombers, in Israel and elsewhere, that blew up Americans.Saddam celebrated 9-11.Saddam Trained terrorists!
DasKerry did film himself. That film was later converted to video.Who the hell cares about word games?Kerry was an egotistical jerk, taking his camera to a war zone planning on making a hero of himself for political purposes.
All you libs:
Google Silver Star V and see what you get?It is all JOHN KERRY because no one else, in HISTORY has EVER gotten a V with a Silver Star.
Therefore, it is evidence of a change in the original documents.
Probably a rehabilitation of his record, also for “political” purposes.
WSYou have not proven a darn thing today.You rarely ever do.
DasEspecially if Kerry was still in the Naval Reserves, it was ILLEGAL for Kerry to meet with our enemies.Is that clear enough for you?
Econ101, are you going on record now to say that every soldier who carried a camera into a war zone is an egotistical jerk?
Are you going to stand by that statement?
You can say illegal all you want. You don’t decide, the courts decide. Kerry was never charged with anything illegal, you liar.
Drunk driving is illegal, so spew your venom at Bush.
Again folks, slowly so you all understand:
Kerry’s military history has NOT been released, in full.
What Kerry has released does NOT make sense.
It is KERRYS fault that we must figure this stuff out for ourselves, since Kerry will not release his records.
Under what terms was Kerry released from his Reserve duty?
Was Kerry’s record ever rehabilitated or scrubbed or changed under Jimmy Carters Vietnam Amnesty rules?
Why was a Combat V on Kerry’s Silver Star, when it is AGAINST military code to do so, and no other person has ever received such a medal, ever?
Again, my guess is that the documents were changed or corrected.
This was probably legal, under Carters program.
This is also why I dont think Kerry will ever release his full record.
Kerry could put a rest to all of this.
He has chosen not to.
—-Stop attacking Bush on his Guard duty and I will leave Kerry alone.
Any takeers?
One doesn’t swiftboat the bogeyman. One does not catch or kill the bogeyman. Bush knows bin laden is the best thing that ever happened to him.
Bush is willing to send other people to war but to chicken to fight him self.Kerry is a thousand times braver than Bush.
Here is the suspect DD-214:
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/jodhn.htm
Kerry is a political coward.
He did not regale the Dem Convention with stories about his anti-war past.
Kerry painted himself a war hero.
Kerry wanted nothing about his Jane Fonda friendship made public.
That is NOT courage.
Econ Paul Rosell questioning ANYONES character is laughably absurd!
Read this and explain it all, WS:
“FORM NRPC 1900: RESIGNATION OF COMMISSION: Kerry’s Resignation of Commission/Discharge from the USNR is dated 13 JULY 1978. How was Kerry, seven years after lying to Congress and six years after his obligated service was up, still in the Navy? At the time, any reserve officer who had dropped into the Inactive/Standby Reserve would have been discharged long before six years had passed. Nor is there a Request for Duty in the Individual Ready Reserve, the only way Kerry could have stayed in the Navy until 1978.”
Read the entire thing now, if you have the guts:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1204194/posts
The DATES dont make sense.
The Official who signed off makes no sense.
Kerry should NOT have been in the Reserves at the time of discharge, anymore.
The ONLY explanation?
In my opinion, Kerry had his military record improved by the Carter Amnesty program.
I am not 100% positive, but Kerry has offered no explanation as to the weird Silver Star V or the dates or the officials involved.
We also know NOTHING about Kerry’s reserve duty.
Kerry NEVER released his records.
Mr. Econ, is it some sort of crime that Mr. Kerry has not released his records? Was Mr. Carter’s Amnesty plan even in effect in July, 1978?
If I understand properly, if Mr. Kerry was not on Active Duty, when he met with the “enemy” in Paris, then it is not a crime for him to do so, whether in the Reserve or not.
I read that Econ101. The one thing that popped out at me that might be in error on that text description of Kerry’s service is -
His appearance before Congress, not in uniform.
I don’t know the rules for that era, but generally it’s 2-2-2.
Two years active duty, unless otherwise released.Two years active reserveTwo years inactive reserve.
The latter, the inactive reserve you are just that inactive and basically a civilian subject to recall in the event the DOD calls you up for service.
So at least from my view, it was appropriate for Kerry to show up to Congress without a uniform simply because he was not entitled to wear the uniform while on inactive reserve.
Not defending Kerry, but I wanted to include my take on the text presented.
The rest of the stuff appears to be that someone was cooking his records to make himself look good.
I’ve seen that happen a few times when I was in – records alteration.
I remember seeing a full Colonel when I was in and noticed his badges above his ribbons (which were quite full.)
He had of course the medical caduceus badge, but above it was a combat infantry badge (CIB) and a jump wings (parachute qualified) badge.
I was curious about that combination as Medical Doctors are non-combatant. He told me he was an enlisted Army Ranger in Vietnam. It made sense then and just another war story by me. :)
DasYou are absolutely WRONG!
Civilians should avoid meeting with the enemy, as Civilians could be charged with “aiding and abetting”
However, a Reserve Officer in the Navy had no business going anywhere NEAR the enemy, in Paris or anywhere else, in Uniform or out of Uniform, on duty or off duty, unless under orders to engage.
I believe that portions of Carters Amnesty plan are STILL in effect.
KansasIf you look at the links provided, especially my last link, the weirdest question that pops up is the date of the DD-214.I understand the active duty/reserve/ready reserve issue.Again, where did Kerry report for Reserve Duty?That portion of his life is a bit of a secret, huh?
Let me explain some more:
I was in Marine Boot Camp in 1977, long after the fall of Saigon.Kerry, by the DD-214, was STILL in the Navy while I was in bootcamp.I was born in 1958. I was 18 at that time.
Vietnam was a bitter memory to my fellow Marines who had served, but the military was cutting back everywhere, and I doubt that Kerry the war protestor would have waited that long for his “seperation from service” —
Carter’s Amnesty program did not allow for forged documents or back-dating.
I am guessing they had to use a REAL date, and that the clerk who filled out the form did not understand military medals.
Or, that the clerk involved was mad at Kerry and put the “combat V” on his Silver Star knowing it was a time bomb set to go off in the future.
Mr. Econ, If Mr. Kerry was under Mr. Carter’s Amnesty effects, it would make some difference. Which is why I inquired if Mr. Carter’s amnesty effects were in force in July, 1978? I didnt see that you answered that inquiry?
Once again, I must inquire, would Mr. Kerry have had some length of time of obligatory service, for a certain number of years? As in active reserve? As mentioned earlier? That would not be something he could control by himself, I would not think.
I dunno econ101.
What would be important to look at is the date Kerry resigned his commission, if he did indeed do that or at least the release date of his commission.
I’m not familiar with Navy regulations on release from commissioned officer duty.
OBL did not start Islamic Terrorism and it won’t be over when we prove OBL is dead.
Posted by: Econ101
But Bush vowed to capture Bin Laden – remember? And after 9/11 the rest of the world was with us but Bush diverted his attack for Iraq and Bush squandered the goodwill of most of the global leaders.
You’re right that Bin Laden is not the real problem and I’m sure there are thousands of Bin Laden ready to take his place if and when he is confirmed dead.
BUT if Bush had pursued Bin Laden and captured him to bring him to justice – the tone of the entire Bush Administration years would be a different one – dare I say a positive tone?
You may dismiss Bush’s refusal to even think about the mastermind that killed 3,000+ people on 9/11 as nothing important – but it is important to the average American and it is definitely important to the families of the 9/11 victims.
Maidmarion,
You are twisting words. Bush never said he refused to even think about Bin Laden.
You are taking a quote completely out of context.
What on earth is going on in your mind that you honestly think that Bush doesn’t care about getting Bin Laden?
Zionist keep beating their own dead horse and somehow expect the world to believe that it is alive and truthful.
Zionists are judged by what they do.
The cat is out of the bag.
Nathan those were Bush’s exact words..when asked what he planned to do about Bin Laden, he replied “I don’t even think about him”. It wasn’t taken out of context..he went right on to the next question..I saw it myself.
Mary,
My comment was that Bush never said he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> REFUSED <<<<<<<<<<< to think about Bin laden like Maid marion said.
Mary,Nathan does not care about words he cares about actions,
…well wait a minute…
I dont know what Nathan cares aboutexcept he does not care that Bush does not care!
Right Nathan, Forget about 9/11 and who did it, be happy that Iraqis are dying in huge numbers.
Saddam wasnt doing it fast enuff.
The cold and undisputed truth is that Vice Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, Commander Naval Forces Vietnam, personally selected the Silver Star award for Kerry and personally pinned the Silver Star on Kerry’s chest at a ceremony at our Coastal Division 11 base in An Thoi, South Vietnam just days after the action. A decoration, like every other award for heroism, that was recommended by his Division Officer and endorsed by then Captain Roy L. Hoffmann. According to Zumwalt, he actually wanted to give Kerry an even higher award, the Navy Cross, but decided upon a Silver Star because he wished to make the award as expeditiously as possible. These points were publicly reiterated by Admiral Zumwalt in 1996, in defense of Kerry’s military record.
Undaunted by the word of one of the most revered naval commanders of any era, the Swift Boat Veterans for truth, and others without principle, continue to attack Kerry’s medal with talk of “a Silver Star with a V for valor listed [in Kerry's records] that the Navy stated it had never awarded” and supposedly suspicious multiple copies of medal citations reissued to Kerry in the Reagan era and bearing the signature of then-Navy Secretary John Lehman who some quote as having said he “denied ever signing them.” What Lehman actually said, was that he did not remember signing them. Big difference, if one is interested in accuracy and the truth.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,101730,00.html
I notice that no wing nut has any response to the point that lying to further one’s career makes sense.
Why would Kerry lie when it was perfectly obvious that such a lie WOULD HURT HIS POLITICAL CAREER?
He had no motive to lie about Vietnam atrocities and every motive just to shut up about them.
He felt compelled to tell the truth.
Novel concept for Repukes . . .
CapnThe Zumwalt medal, the ACTUAL piece of cloth and metal, did NOT contain a “Combat V” on the Silver Star because:NO SUCH MEDAL EXISTS!
Das
The answer was implied, sorry you missed it:YES!
Again folks, this is a pretty good time line, and NOBODY has been able to explain it or deny it:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1204194/posts
Actually, in my own personal opinion, the Silver Star that was awarded to Kerry was a bit too much for what he did.
A common infantryman did what Kerry did on a regular basis and never get a Silver Star.
Although, I have been chided by my enlisted troops that enlisted get lower medals and officers get trophy medals.
For the most part that is true. The medals awarded to officers are usually overly inflated compared to what the enlisted do.
However, Kerry did get the Silver Star awarded and since he was recommended (pretty sure those take a General or Flag Officer endorsement,) there is not too much anyone can say about it.
It is true that the “V” for Valor is not assigned to the Silver Star. I saw a lot of bronze medals with “V” and even saw a couple of “Cross” medals and one Medal of Honor. The MoH was an Army Green Beret I think. Been a long time ago. He was in a wheel chair and a long line of people where there to shake his hand, never got close enough to see him.
“Undaunted by the word of one of the most revered naval commanders of any era,”
Who are we talking about? I hope not Zumwalt. The man they made CNO and then fired?
Pathalogical liars can’t help themselves and someone with Kerry’s ego just think they can lie and no one will question it. After all ‘he served in Viet Nam’ didn’t he.
Das you are making me upset that I offered my apology on the hamstringing thing. I took pictures of my kids in the 60’s and 70’s with a 8mm video recorder. They are now called camcorders and record a little differently but are camcorders none the less.
When someone starts making these distinctions I know they have a very weak argument. He’s is your hero after all. Why do you think he took a camcorder to Viet Nam?
I am sorry Ksgrm. I am not aware of any 8mm video recording devices that use video tape in the 1960’s and 1970’s. I know of 8mm film, and 16mm film. If memory serves me correctly, the first video tape recorders were large and extremely bulky, and used I think Beta tapes?
I should think maybe you would want to double check on the video tape idea from that early.
My argument is not weak or strong, I do not think. I just reacted to seeing several posters using the term camcorder at such an early date as when Mr. Kerry was in Vietnam, and naturally wondered why anyone would want to make a point about such a thing.
As I said before, many soldiers in Vietnam took movies, and pictures, and for many reasons. Some merely wanted to send home visual memories since so many never expected to return home alive.
I do not know why you would choose to respond to me in such a suspicious manner.
And also, I do not know if I would say that Mr. Kerry is anything like a hero to me.
I find him an interesting individual, but he did seem to run a very flawed campaign, or he would surely have defeated Mr. Bush in 2004.
Das I guess because you have accused me more than once of lying about the existence of a camcorder. Even when I told you I owned one – in fact still have it and the projector you needed to show the film. I have had the many rolls of super8mm put on cd so that we can watch them more often. The projector kept burning holes in the film. It is an antique after all.
On Kerry I could care less about him but that was my generation. I lost cousins and many schoolmates in that war. Not one of them even the friends who came back had videos of them in Nam.
Nor did any of them get out as fast as he did and some had much more serious wounds and went back to fight another day.
Nor did any of them get out as fast as he did and some had much more serious wounds and went back to fight another day.
Posted by: ksgrm | August 27, 2007 at 08:59 PM
Not to mention that our fearful leaders were to chicken to fight in the first place.
“in fact still have it and the projector you needed to show the film.”
Dont you see right here, where you just said that you needed a projector to show the film? Why do you insist on calling what you had a “camcorder” It was an old 8mm movie camera! Just as I do believe I said it must have been.
You see, you dont need a projector to show video tape. And I believe I also mentioned that, but perhaps I left that out before.
WSThe “honorable Discharge” you speak of was in 1970.
The DD-214 that Kerry put on HIS OWN web page was issued under Jimmy Carter, a long long time later.
Explain?
let me help you: you get 2 discharges, one from ACTIVE duty, the other from RESERVE duty.
It was Kerry’s RESERVE duty that needed to be “rehabilitated” — that is where the dirt must be.
And I am truly sorry that you lost friends and such in that horrible war. A war that should never have been engaged, going back into the 1950’s and France.
But I must say, I know of many who sent home movies, and pictures. And I have spent many hours looking at films from the brave ones who many never returned.
So, I do not think it is anything out of the ordinary that even someone such as Mr. Kerry, no matter how much you seem to dislike the man, should have taken a movie camera with him, to take pictures, to either send home, or bring home with him.
And if he indeed saw things happen that he felt should not have been done, and he took pictures, then why should that be something negative?
Why should the people of your country not be informed, if indeed certain atrocities might have been committed in a war situation?
It could be that news of that type might have been advantageous in getting the war ended, no matter if you agree on how it ended or not.
Again, just my opinion.
Mr. Econ, if it happened under Mr. Carter, then it had to be at least in 1977, or else, when it is listed, in 1978. It seems to me that U. S. Military personnel have now days something like an 8 year committment? So, if Mr. Kerry was discharged in 1970, would not 1978 be the 8 year time for permanent discharge, as is listed, for July 1978?
Ksgrm writes: “On Kerry I could care less about him but that was my generation. I lost cousins and many schoolmates in that war.”
Really?! So you must be totally outraged about Bush getting duty in the “Champaign Unit” protecting Texas from invasion, right?
Oops, I forgot. Wing-nuttia means having one set of criteria for liberals and a totally different one for conservatives . . .
Remember CONS, everytime you say “Kerry lied,” you are saying that Zumwalt lied.
Oh, and by the way, Econ Dipwit:
“As for the Navy saying it has never awarded Kerry a Silver Star with a V for valor: that is absolutely true. Kerry did not win a Silver Star with V for Valor because the award is actually called a “Silver Star.” Kerry did win a “Silver Star” and a “Bronze Star with a V for valor,” as numerous Navy records show. That a clerk incorrectly typed the words “with V for valor” after “Silver Star” as well as “Bronze Star” on a piece of paper in 1970 (which is what Kerry’s detractors are talking about) proves nothing except mistakes can happen, which should surprise no one who served in uniform (believe it or not, even in our armed forces, administrative errors do occur).”
Obviously, Kerry won a Silver Star and a Bronze Star with a V for Valor.
How many medals did Bush earn?
Let me think . . . two plus uh carry the . . .
ZERO!
Because he never got close to combat. Congressman Daddy and Senator Grandpa made sure of that.
It must really gall the hell out of all you vets–Kansas, Econ, Hank, Nathan, Eagle Beak–to know that both Kerry and Gore SERVED IN A WAR ZONE while President CokeSpoon never left the states . . .
Sucks to be you . . .
I served in a War Zone and actually flew over it a few dozen times. So no, it doesn’t bug me Capn.
Perhaps if you would have served at all in any service Capn, you’d have more respect for those who served.
I know Hank, Nathan and Econ have served. I don’t know Eagle Beak, so don’t know.
Hank, Nathan and I are the only ones on the blog that have military ID cards as well that I know.
Hank and Nathan are probably laughing at you Capn, because we’ve all met civilians like you and they are mostly clueless about what happens in the military and what we do or have done.
Oh I forgot Ken, he said was retired as well and XXX who served.
CapnAmerica,
I’ve always tried to make it a point not to personally say anything bad about anyones service if it was honorable.
I will definately go after what Kerry did when he got back, but I don’t say much about his serving.
Unlike you, I understand that everyone plays there part in the military.
Bush served honorably in the Air Guard.
Are you saying that only those who serve in a combat zone deserve any credit for serving their country in the military?
I know a lot of people in the military who have never gone to Iraq and probably never will, but they work hard and do thier part.
So, are you saying only those who serve in a combat zone are worthy?
I believe that there is something about only those who serve in combat zones, are worthy of medals.
Like the way Kerry got his
Not really Das.
Medals are used in the military for promotion and recognition purposes.
There are of course combat medals and then their are campaign, service , longevity, unit and other types of medals awarded.
There are special achievement medals like the marksman.
I’m out of step what medals they give now, but it used to be once you graduated from Officer school or Basic Training as the case may be, everyone got the National Defense Medal if you server during a time of conflict.
Then there are theater medals. Those medal that awarded if you serve in a specific theater and special ones if you serve in a theater during conflict.
There are also foreign medals that can be awarded that the service person can wear.
Most of the time the medals are displayed as ribbons, because medals are heavy and cumbersome.
There are miniature versions of medals and medals that you can wear with the formal military uniform called the “mess dress.”
Special unit medals are awarded if you serve in a unit like Presidential guard, Arlington Honor Guard teams, Demonstration Teams (blue angels, Thunderbirds, etc.)
As I said before, it is a very easy way to look at a military person’s record and because the medals are weighted by points, you can assess how the service person is performing as a military citizen by examining his/her awarded medals. It tells a lot about them with a quick glance.
Although, I have seen career people due to long assignments at one place only have one row of ribbons on their uniform. Nothing wrong with that, it’s just the way the system works.
“Any takeers?”
Sure, I’ll takee it.
Where is Bush’s DD214?
DAS
PLEASE use some common sense, would you? The dates DONT make sense.You keep asking naive questions.
The FACTS are that Kerry was NOT really allowed to protest against the war while still in the military.
The FACTS are that there is great controversy over Kerry’s seperation from service.
The FACTS are that Kerry wanted OUT of the military.
The FACTS are that the Military, under JIMMY CARTER (and Ford, previously) went through HUGE cut backs and the military was discharging even those Veterans that did not WANT to be discharged.
DAS, Please, follow a logical path in your comments and questions or I will have to ignore you.
One other thing: Nobody has EVER been elected to President without releasing ALL military records, if any, prior to the election! Not required by law, but the voters tend to require it, none the less!
The DATE on Kerry’s DD-214, anyone want to figure that out for us?
The date is under Jimmy Carter and the DD-214 mentions a medal that does not exist.
Again, don’t blame me, blame Kerry. He should have fixed the error, when he saw it.
Kerry should also have released his records, so we could understand how an anti war protestor could possibly serve under Nixon, Ford and Carter!
“Hank, Nathan and I are the only ones on the blog that have military ID cards as well that I know.
Hank and Nathan are probably laughing at you Capn, because we’ve all met civilians like you and they are mostly clueless about what happens in the military and what we do or have done.Oh I forgot Ken,…”Posted by: Kansas
I think I know of one more with an ID.
And yes I am laughing.
On the medals in question there cannot be a “V” issued because, as it says in the upthread, the medal is only awarded if in contact with the enemy; therefore, a “V” is not needed.
An exception was made in the Tillman case, but “friendly fire” is not “contact with the enemy” so it cannot be awarded in the case of “friendly fire”.
What on earth is going on in your mind that you honestly think that Bush doesn’t care about getting Bin Laden?
Posted by: Nathan
Because these words came out of Bush’s mouth – it was not from the ‘liberal’ media – it was Bush’s own mouth.
Why do you NOT care that your leader Bush does not even think about the mastermind that killed 3,000+ people on 9/11? What does that say about you? Do you also not care or think about Bin Laden anymore?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o
You military tough guys can spin it all you want.
Kerry went to a hot zone and got shot at.
Bush got special treatment to learn how to fly on the taxpayer’s dime.
His father was a Congressman and his grandfather was a Senator.
Only a RepubliCON could smear Kerry and defend Bush.
No one has touched the main arguments: why would Kerry lie knowing it would HURT not help his future career, knowing full well how you former military types would come at him hammer and tongs for telling the truth?
Not a one of you can answer that question, because it only has one answer: he told the truth to save lives and stop a war that should have never been started.
For that, he can never be forgiven by the CONs.
Capn,
I served in a war zone.
Were you able to back up even one of the war crimes Kerry said happened? Was anyone able to verify them? Even one of them?
“why would Kerry lie knowing it would HURT not help his future career “
You aren’t this dense capn. Protesting the war was –all the rage- at the time.
“for telling the truth”
If he did, why was no one convicted of war crimes?Why did he visit with the enemy during and active action against the enemy?
Lt Calley?
December 2, 1968 Kerry experienced first intense combat, and is slightly wounded by shrapnel in the arm. He was awarded a Purple Heart.There is, however, no after-action report released by the Kerry campaign. The attending physician, Louis Letson says “The story he told was different from what his crewmen had to say about that night. According to Kerry, they had been engaged in a firefight. . . Some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore, but that Kerry had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore. The crewman thought that the injury was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks. That seemed to fit the injury which I treated. What I saw was a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry’s arm. The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. . .I simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps. I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound. The wound was covered with a band-aid.”
Kerry applied for a Purple Heart. His request was initially denied by his superior Grant Hibbard, as Purple Heart eligibility requirements that “the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer” and Purple Hearts are not to be awarded for “accidents. . .not related to or caused by enemy action” or for “self-inflicted wounds. . .involving gross negligence.” Hibbard later acquiesced.
http://www.archive-news.net/Kerry/JK_timeline.html
“(Note: In Kerry’s own journal written 9 days later, he writes that he and his crew, “hadn’t been shot at yet.” Kerry’s 2004 campaign said it is possible his first Purple Heart was awarded for unintentionally self-inflicted wounds.)”
“December 1968 Within a few weeks Kerry was reassigned back to An Thoi.Crewman Steve Gardner states that he filed a false after-action report to cover up a January incident involving the accidental shooting of a child.
(Kerry’s fellow officer George Bates similarly states that Kerry habitually overreacted to threatening situations by using excessive force, including on one occasion burning down a random village where there was no sign of enemy presence.)”
“(U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.)”
“The attending physician, Louis Letson says…….
Facts are a bitch…..
“bothered to note that Dr. Louis Letson, who is featured in the ad claiming to have treated Kerry for the wound that earned him his first Purple Heart and claiming that it was undeserved, was not the medical official who signed Kerry’s medical records for the wound.”
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408050007
There’s more…..
Regarding the Swift Boaters….
“none of the men had actually served on the Swift boats that Mr. Kerry commanded.” Adm. Roy F. Hoffman, one of the veterans in the ad, has even “acknowledged he had no first-hand knowledge to discredit Kerry’s claims to valor,”
Posted by: WSClark | August 27, 2007 at 02:23 PM
CapnAmerica,
You didn’t answer my question:
“So, are you saying only those who serve in a combat zone are worthy?”
In Response to your question:
“why would Kerry lie knowing it would HURT not help his future career?”
First of all, it did help his future career. He might not have known about running for President, but it definately made him popular with the extreme anti-war liberal left.
It bought him a coushy seat in the Senate and a spotlight in the public for the rest of his life.
You choose to only look at his run for the Presidency.
His whole life has been a reward for the crap he came back and said.
Are only those who serve in a war-zone worthy?
If a person enters the military with the desire to serve and are assigned a job, then they are worthy.
If a person enters the military as a way of avoiding dangerous service like Bush did, then they are not worthy.
Nathan writes, “It bought him a coushy seat in the Senate and a spotlight in the public for the rest of his life.”
Actually, that’s exactly FALSE. Kerry LOST his race for Congress the first time he ran mainly because of his anti-war stance.
Making up their own “facts,” it’s how you can tell a CON.
Wing-nuttia in action:
Sol writes “Were you able to back up even one of the war crimes Kerry said happened? Was anyone able to verify them? Even one of them?” and then he goes on to accuse KERRY of exactly what he himself COULD NEVER BE PROVEN!
(Killing children and excessive force.)
Unbelievable. The man contradicts himself with his “evidence.”
“His ambition tempered only by political naivete, Kerry tried on congressional districts like suits off the rack. In less than two months in early 1972, the antiwar leader called three different districts in Massachusetts home. To this day, he bears the brand of opportunist from that brazen district-hopping, which he acknowledges as part of his political “baggage.”"
http://www.boston.com/globe/nation/packages/kerry/061803.shtml
Yup, his stance on the war. Sure thing capn.
Anti-war protests may have been “the rage” in some circles, but it didn’t advance your career or make you rich or famous.
Not a single 60’s protest figure acheived success by opposing the war.
Showing btw that anti-war protest is one of the few examples of altruism one can find.