The pro-life community has been abuzz with speculation about why Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller’s clinic was closed for three weeks. David Gittrich, state development director of Kansans for Life, wrote in a letter to The Eagle that his group suspected the clinic was closed because Tiller (in photo) couldn’t find another Kansas physician willing to “rubber-stamp bogus diagnoses for late-term abortions.” Tiller is facing misdemeanor charges alleging that a physician he used for second opinions wasn’t legally and financial independent from him, as required by Kansas law.
But Julie Burkhart, executive director of ProKanDo, a pro-choice political action committee, said that the clinic was closed because of vandalism, and that it reopened Monday. On July 4, two masked vandals drilled a hole in the roof of the clinic, inserted a garden hose, then glued the water spigot open, flooding a room in the clinic, according to the Wichita Police Department, which hasn’t yet made an arrest in the case.
Burkhart said the clinic thought it had cleaned up all the damage but then discovered mold in the walls. “It was a bit of a problem,” she said. Tiller’s attorneys said in a statement that the clinic was temporarily closed “to make absolutely certain that these acts of sabotage have not created any physical or medical risks to his patients.”
Meanwhile, Cheryl Sullenger of Operation Rescue said on the anti-abortion group’s Web site that it was “thanking God” for the closure and would not “stop praying and working until Tiller’s abortion business is permanently closed.”
Is the group also praying that the vandals will be arrested?
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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320 Comments
Sounds like Operation Rescue is just a little tooo happy about the vandalism that closed Tiller’s Clinic…. Hmmmmm…..
OMG
Tiller’s clinic was closed for three weeks?
No wonder no one can get a flight out of Wichita. Thousands and thousands of women had to go elseware for their abortions!
Maybe prolife exagerates just how many abortions he really performs.
At least Cheryl Sullenger didn’t try to blow this clinic up, like the clinic she attempted to firebomb in California — the crime that landed her in federal prison.
http://www.sdnewsnotes.com/ed/articles/1998/0798tm.htm
I am praying that the vandals are never caught.
Were you one of them Bill?
LOL!! Dear Jesus, please send thy mana of mold and mildew from heaven to smite the evil doer!!! Letest not cholorox and new drywall undo thy will.
Closing Tiller’s clinic will not solve the problem.
Operation Rescue fails to address the fact that woman are paying to have their babies killed.
Close down Tiller and the women who want their babies killed will still be there.
The problem isn’t Tiller, the problem is the deranged women who concieve and then kill their babies.
Hypocrisy’s best example is shown to be christians. Vandalism and property destruction are now ok? Bill, if you ever want people to take pro-lifers seriously, you and all your cronies need to stop saying things like that.
Bombings. Shootings. Vandalism. Shady deals with bought politicians. IRS investigations. Money laundering.
Such compassion, such Christian behavior from the so-called “pro-life” community.
deranged women what about the men who put them in that position? the only time i was cheated in life was by a self proclaimed christian oh well if they dont get caught does it change the fact they are vandals ? any other place those same people would be appalled!!
hoping the vandals don’t get caught…gee. Ever think to look at OR and their supporters? Kindof a no-brainer huh?
Tiller didn’t only perform late term abortions, he does all the abortions for this area. So it’s rather silly to suggest that his entire business would be shut down simply for that.
And who will suffer when they destroy the good doctors who perform abortions? The women who need them, of course. Get ready, we’re going to have an awful lot of dead women, and a lot more child abuse, a lot more dumpster babies. Even the ultra Catholic Mexico got tired of losing their women. They finally realized their religion didn’t meld with reality.
But of course, those who want Tiller’s clinic shut down are also the ones who think women should die if they even think about an abortion.
What’s next a sniper to pick off the women on the way in? That’d put a stop to them!
“Get ready, we’re going to have an awful lot of dead women, and a lot more child abuse, a lot more dumpster babies.”
Pmom this sounds a little hysterical don’t you think.
Phantom I thought I saw someone walking down Kellogg with an assault rifle the other day. Maybe that was where there were going.
Whoever did this should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Lawbreaking isn’t the way to change people minds on social issues. I don’t know anyone with OR but know several with Choices and they are non-violent and simply have a respect for the sancity of life.
Pro-lifers are terrorists. Plain and simple.
You betcha Bob. The majority of pro-lifers would kill us all if given the opportunity wouldn’t they. That is a class of people that should be wiped out. You pro choice people go for it. After all who do they think they are anyhow. Thinking that innocent babies shouldn’t be murdered in the womb.What kind of idiots would think that prolife people have the right to an opinion. What kind of crazy terrorist think is that anyhow.
Right on Bob!!
“The problem isn’t Tiller, the problem is the deranged women who concieve and then kill their babies.”Posted by: Happy | August 21, 2007 at 07:13 AM
Oy yoi, yoi. Happy, tell me that was some serious sarcasm at work. I sincerely hope that you don’t really think that women are going out and getting pregnant just so they can get abortions.
Ksgrm,
Operation Rescue’s “Senior Policy Advisor,” Cheryl Sullenger, served time in a Federal penitentiary for her role in firebombing a San Diego women’s clinic.
OR’s president, Troy Newman, called Paul Hill a “hero” and a “martyr.” Hill, in case you’ve forgotten, is the Army of God criminal who murdered a physician. Hill was subsequently executed by the State of Florida.
Oh, and while we’re on the subject of Army of God, that’s the organization that Eric Robert Rudolph was part of. Rudolph is spending the rest of his life in a supermax cell in the Colorado desert for the murders and maiming of people at the Atlanta Olympics and a women’s health center in Alabama.
Who is one of Sullenger’s closest friends? None other than Keith Mason, another Army of God member. Mason and Sullenger spent an evening photographing participants, and their vehicle license plates, at a public candidate forum I organized last year.
Such peaceful people, Operation Rescue. So Christian of them.
:::eyeroll:::
Pro-lifers are terrorists? Pro-abortioners have allowed the murder of 40 million humans. The largest death count of any human group is the death count of aborted fetuses. Vandalizing a building with a water hose is terrorism? Maybe you need to review the effects of 9/11 to remind yourself what terrorism looks like.
If women can’t abort, they’ll abuse, neglect and throw away even more babies? Legalized abortion was supposed to end these problems. It didn’t work, did it? So long as people are taught that it is acceptable to “terminate” human life at some stages, why wouldn’t they continue to hold human life as essentially worthless? And we’ll have more dead women? How many more? Have you looked at the actual figures? There is no way we’d have lost 40 million ADULT human lives in childbirth since 1973.
Those who vandalized the clinic have broken the law, and will be punished if found. Those inside the clinic who terminate human life every day are legally innocent, but are they morally innocent? How much innocent blood is on the hands of those who promote abortion?
Phan,”What’s next a sniper to pick off the women on the way in? That’d put a stop to them!”
That option has certainly been discussed in poor-life chatrooms.
ksgrim,”"Get ready, we’re going to have an awful lot of dead women, and a lot more child abuse, a lot more dumpster babies.”
Pmom this sounds a little hysterical don’t you think.”
I was around when abortion was illegal. It certainly didn’t stop women from getting abortions, but it did get a lot of them killed. Of course the families and society managed to see that the cause of death was put down as something else.
Tom,IIRC, Rudolf also bombed a gay bar, good christian that he was.
Well said, Mom of 5.
Bob, you’re a fool.
Thank god Dr.Tiller provides a safe place for women to terminate their pregnancy. Leave the good Dr. alone
Rudolf also bombed a gay bar, good christian that he was.Posted by: Jed | August 21, 2007 at 09:53 AM
Jed, he sure did. But I didn’t want to bring it up – too many of the sock puppets make a big show of me making the blog “all gay all the time.”
Heh.
Lynz
There have been several posts from pro lifers that women use abortion as birth control.
Sarcasm from me? Yes.
Put the Pro-Lifers in Gitmo. They are suspected terrorists that threaten the security of the United States. They have shown to be reckless and dangerous. How do you like that reich wingers? Maybe when we have a dem in the WH they can get started on that. Still support Gitmo? Will you support it when your leadership is detained there indefinitely?
To all the pro life people people hanging out in front of Tillers office holding their discusting signs, If you don’t believe in abortion DON’T HAVE ONE. Mind your own business and go get a job
????,
I figured as much. Thanks for the clarification.
Knowing his clinic was closed put a smile on my face.
Motherof2When you or someone you know gets the label of “enemy combatant” and they get sent to Gitmo, maybe you will start caring about the Constitution. Your dear “pro life” leader has opened Pandora’s Box when it comes to this. And one more thing, are you not tired of being used for your vote? The party of the “pro life” cause didn’t do anything to overturn Roe v. Wade when they had a chance. Feel used much?
Anybody ever think that a woman who would have an abortion, maybe shouldn’t have a kid? Here is an account of one effect of abortion on demand:
http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/990812/abortion.shtml
“It’s the LAW, Dr. Tiller”
Bumper sticker I saw yesterday.
Boy, the pro-lifers don’t like hearing about being labeled and sent to Gitmo. Its the precident that has been set by the current administration. They clam up when the possiblity is brought up that they too can be labeled as “terrorists” and thrown in jail with out due process.
And the law says abortions are legal.
Mike??? I would guess that no one is reacting to you because they know a ridiculous comment when they see it.
Mike,
To lump every Pro-Lifer into one group because of the actions of a few is asinine. And as such, you receive no responses.
Have a nice day. Go kill a baby.
And tiller side steps the law for late term abortions. Quite possibly the most heinous of any human activity.
Speaks well of you to support that Tom.
And tiller side steps the law for late term abortions.
Posted by: SolDevVB | August 21, 2007 at 11:20 AM
Oh? Has Tiller gone to trial and been convicted?
To lump every Pro-Lifer into one group because of the actions of a few…Posted by: SolDevVB | August 21, 2007 at 11:18 AM
Sol,
It’s the actions of their LEADERS. Not just “a few.”
????,
You beat me to it.
I am Pro Choice.
My position is that women will seek to terminate their pregnancies for many reasons whether aborttion is legal or not.
I believe it is better to have a professional clinic where abortions are performed in relative safety.
Abortion should be a matter of choice, safe, and rare.
“Tiller is facing misdemeanor charges alleging that a physician he used for second opinions wasn’t legally and financial independent from him, as required by Kansas law.”
didn’t you read this?
The U.S. Law said black people could be owned as slaves. The Nazi Law said the lives of Jews could be terminated in extermination camps. The Soviet Law said undesirables could be exterminated or imprisoned in slave camps. The Law in Cambodia, in Uganda, in the Sudan, in Saudi Arabia, in Iran, in Cuba and in China and on and on all use(d) the law as cover for murdering undesirables! Many lawyers and politicians support(ed) these horrible, deadly laws.
So how does that make it right?
Sol,
Are we in a Lewis Carroll novel? Convict first, trial after?
Perhaps we should take the Doctor out and shoot him even before the conviction, right?
:::eyeroll:::
“Sol,
It’s the actions of their LEADERS. Not just “a few.”"
Oh I see. The leaders outnumber the followers. Great point.
I am pro life. I am a non violent pro-life supporter. The assumption that everyone who chooses to defend the lives of the young is a terrorist is asinine.
So Tom, you support asinine blanket statements and sucking the brain of a child out moments before it is born.
You must be ever so proud.
STL,
Unlike the laws in the nations you mention, our laws are passed by our elected representatives, and are enforced in impartial courts by juries of the accused’s peers. Your comparison of US and Kansas abortion laws to Nazis, etc., is beyond ridiculous.
“Perhaps we should take the Doctor out and shoot him even before the conviction, right?”
Nah. Let him live with the blood of innocents on his hands and ponder the everlasting.
Pro-life remember.
Mike,
To lump every Pro-Lifer into one group because of the actions of a few is asinine. And as such, you receive no responses.
Have a nice day. Go kill a baby.Posted by: SolDevVB | August 21, 2007 at 11:18 AM
Isn’t it the same logic we use in the war on terror? Small groups of Muslims do revolting things yet we lump countries in as the “axis of evil”. Sorry that your right wing logic doesn’t make sense. We have been trying to figure it out for some time now.
Sol,
Do you give money to Operation Rescue? National Right to Life or its affiliates? Operation Save America? If you are, you’re supporting violent leadership.
If not, then my criticism is not of you. If you’re not a member of or donor to any of those organizations, don’t take it personally. However, if you’re sending money to Troy Newman and Cheryl Sullenger, you’re as guilty as they of committing acts of domestic terrorism. We even have laws about that – “material support.”
“The U.S. Law said black people could be owned as slaves.”Posted by: STL | August 21, 2007 at 11:34 AM
“our laws are passed by our elected representatives, and are enforced in impartial courts by juries of the accused’s peers. “Posted by: Tom | August 21, 2007 at 11:36 AM
So Tom, you are now supporting slavery? After all it was a law that was…
“passed by our elected representatives, and are enforced in impartial courts by juries of the accused’s peers. “
Mike??? I would guess that no one is reacting to you because they know a ridiculous comment when they see it.
Posted by: outlander | August 21, 2007 at 11:14 AM
Or, its so true they don’t know what to say.
Sol,
What state in the US is slavery legal? Last I checked, our elected representatives passed a couple of Constitutional amendments banning it. Is there something I don’t know?
Mike,
What you fail to realize is that we right wingers are the ones with all the guns.
When or if you liberals ever want to use the government to silence those you disagree with we can actually fight against your tyranny.
Or Nathan, when the dems control the WH, they can take the “pro-life” leadership and label them “terrorists” and put them in Gitmo. Just another reason Gitmo should be closed. Or if put in the wrong hands it could be used against you.
Nathan,
I’m called a “liberal” and a “left winger” all the time. Yet I own guns, and support the 2nd Amendment.
I can defend myself, thank you very much.
Troy Newman declared in his book that doctors who perform abortions and women who get abortions should be executed. Such a loving Christian he is. The advocate of murder surrounds himself with thugs who attack old people, clinic bombers, and wife beaters.
Yes Doug….
And I don’t see one person here who calls themselves pro-life supporting any such statements.
I don’t see one person here who calls themselves a Christian supporting any such statements.
So what is your point?
NathanAre you and those in your party not disappointed that when the window was open for overturning Roe v. Wade all the lawmakers wanted to do was line their pockets? Do you not feel used for your vote?
Mike,
I don’t agree with the premise you load your question with, but the answer is still No.
Tom,
“The U.S. Law said black people could be owned as slaves.”Posted by: STL | August 21, 2007 at 11:34 AM
“our laws are passed by our elected representatives, and are enforced in impartial courts by juries of the accused’s peers. “Posted by: Tom | August 21, 2007 at 11:36 AM
Yes. Just because the law states that an action is legal, doesn’t make it right now does it. As referenced above. Now you know.
That is a very easy question to answer Nathan. They run on a “pro-life” stance. When the opportunity presented itself to actually overturn Roe v. Wade they did nothing. But it makes sense, what would they run on then if Roe v. Wade was abolished?
“Isn’t it the same logic we use in the war on terror? Small groups of Muslims do revolting things yet we lump countries in as the “axis of evil”. Sorry that your right wing logic doesn’t make sense. We have been trying to figure it out for some time now.”Posted by: Mike | August 21, 2007 at 11:39 AM
Mike,
If that were the case, we would declare war on Muslims or the Islamic faith. See how asinine that is? Blanket statements really make you sound dumb. You’re not dumb Mike. Just a little overzealous.
Nathan, the terrorists at Operation Rescue call themselves Christian and pro-life. I don’t hear many self-proclaimed pro-lifers criticizing them and their jihad against Tiller.
While educating myself on the anti-choice movement by reading websites created by anti-choice groups it is a common theme to have a woman who has had an abortion give testimony that what she did was “wrong” and that it is now her “mission” to “save” other women from a similar fate.
These women weren’t enlightened to their mission in life until after they had an abortion? Would they have found their mission if they had given birth to a child they didn’t want?
It seems that abortion was convenient when it was a choice available for them, as it is convenient now that they have a mission in life.
What about the enlightenment of other women and the right for these women to make the best possible decision for their situation – health, religion, housing, relationship and other life defining elements.
The religious right and the fanatical and militant and often violent women and men of the anti-choice movement who believe that God calls them to commit harm against others and interfere with free-will…well, these folks have the convenience of being able to justify their actions as devine inspired. Just who is whispering in their ears? God? The same God who encouraged the death of millions in the Christian Crusades?
Doug,
You are sitting here talking to a couple of them.
Lonnie,
Before we can have an honest discussion, you need to first stop with distroting the pro-life movement by calling them anti-choice.
It is hard to have a discussion with someone when they refuse to even start with not calling you names.
Doug & Nathan,
I’ll second Nathan’s statement.
Lonnie,
Who is whispering in the ears of anti-life/pro-death folks that support the whole sale slaughter of America’s most defenseless?
SollyDidn’t our government just last week place the Army of Iran on the “axis of evil” list? And we are on a “crusade to liberate the oppressed” rememeber? As you and I know both, the Islamic faith is viewed as oppressive. A small group of Saudis committed the acts of 9-11, yet we attacked an entire country to rid the world of this small group. I say lets not be hypocrites and clean up home too. All the “pro-life” groups that have committed violent acts should be put in Gitmo. And their supporters as well. The hypocrisy of our Democracy rears its ugly head again.
It’s just a life right Lonnie? One more, one less. Doesn’t really matter to you does it?
A Caucasian man murdered an Hispanic woman today. Let’s round up all them ole terrorist Caucasians!!!
Controlling women by limiting their reproductive choice is a form of slavery. That’s all there is to it. We’ve got pharmacies out there who won’t dispense morning after pills, which is ridiculous since most of them will dispense regular birth control.
So which is more pro-abortion? Prevention, or laws against it?
I’m rather sick of religious beliefs dictating what others should do with their own bodies. Mom of five, please, continue having babies, but when you’ve got one that might kill you, you best just lay there and don’t come crying to the pro choice side when it is convenient…which is what a lot of religious whackos do…they come straight off the picket lines into the clinics, and right back out onto the picket lines…because they suddenly feel that since it’s THEM and their circumstances are different, God will forgive them.
do you realize how many stories start out like “i’m anti-abortion but…”
Mike,
We didn’t attack an entire country. We attacked their military and their leader.
Your analogy is absurd.
Did he stick a pipe bomb in her a**? Did he murder her because she did not agree with his political views? Nice try Solly. Let’s not convolute the argument.
Political Mom,
It is not all about religious beliefs.
Mary doesn’t support abortion and she disdains Christianity.
Untill you are willing to even understand what it is the Pro-Life movement believes we will not be able to have a honest discussion.
You choose instead to mischaracterize and label the Pro-Life movement.
NathanMaybe you forgot that we were in Afghanistan before Iraq. Did they have a military?
I am out there on the front lines of the pro-choice movement, I see up close and personal what the pro-life movement believes. So don’t even try it with me.
I have to listen to these whackos at the capital building all the time. I have to receive their ranting letters claiming to be god. That’s the truth, we have at least one letter a month from GOD himself.
“Controlling women by limiting their reproductive choice is a form of slavery. That’s all there is to it.”
Ripping a baby limb from limb is murder. Sucking the brain out of the skull of a child is murder. That is all there is to it.
P_Mom, you put the value of your choice above that of a life. Atta girl !!! And you put it as a controlling spin. Way to go. Brains sucked out… controlling. Yeah, I can see the similarities.
Mike,
Yes, the Taliban did have a “military.”
They were defeated by the Northern Alliance with our help.
I remember just fine.
PMDon’t worry, the reich wing will never overturn Roe v. Wade. If they did, how would they control the religious nutjobs they depend on for votes? They have already played the gay marriage card. They can’t seem to agree on immigration. So whats left? Abortion. Its all they have left. They need that political football or they will be out of the game.
NathanJust remember what I said earlier. King George opened Gitmo and refuses to close it. If it falls into the wrong hands, you might find those leaders of the “pro-life” movement living there.
A baby’s life = political football
Nice way to look at things Mike. Outstanding.
And those nasty ole Caucasians.
Hey sol, did you know that people get mangled and ripped limb from limb driving a car? OH BAN AUTOMOBILES. Did you realize that maggots eat your insides after you die? BAN MAGGOTS! Did you know that during a pregnancy, women can die from carrying that pregnancy? BAN PREGNANCIES! Babies DIE en utero, no interference necessary. Baby shark eat their wombmates. Life is hard sometimes.
What I’m saying to you is, there are unpleasant things, gruesome things in the world. I think it’s unfortunate that women feel the need to have abortions in the first place…but the alternatives can be worse.
Well Solly, when they had a chance to do something about abortion they didn’t. They showed those that voted for them how much they appreciated their vote. I am just stating facts. I am sorry if you have a hard time dealing with the fact that you were used for a vote. You should be upset with those that let you down, not me.
Should it be ILLEGAL for a pregnant woman to smoke and drink?
What steps should the government take to prevent pregnant women from smoking and drinking?
Brenda “I’m not John Kerry!” had an abortion before she was against them.
Mike, I refuse to play the political game with women’s lives. I won’t be apathetic to this thinking that they’ll never..because they’ve done a fine job of making it so incredibly difficult for women as it is.
Brenda “I’m not John Kerry!” Landwehr, that is.
I cannot respect the pro-life position unless they actively support comprehensive sex education and the availability of birth control, especially condoms.
The symptom is abortion.
The problem is unwanted pregnancies.
To solve a problem, you address the problem it’s self, not the symptom.
Abortion should be safe, legal and rare. The safe and legal portions of that equations are fairly well established.
The rare portion of the equation can only happen with education and the availability of birth control.
Any discussion of abortion needs to begin the discussion of unwanted pregnancies, not the medical procedure.
PMom,
Isn’t it fascinating how the anti-woman side of this has changed it from a debate about vandalism and other crimes against clinics and their employees to nothing more than screams about “You’re all a bunch of baby killers!!!” ?
See, more control over women. Now not only do you have to carry your baby and potentially die for it, we can be jailed for not living correctly (Alexa’s laws in other states have specifically been used to prosecute the pregnant women more times than it has been used to protect women). What’s next? When we’re pregnant, it’s like China in reverse? Instead of forced abortions we’ll have forced births. Get pregnant, and your body isn’t your own anymore. We go into hospitals to ensure that we’re not raising our arms above our heads (that’s thought to cause miscarriages).
Anti-woman, anti-choice, “pro-life” folks:
I have a question.
Should abortion be outlawed, what punishment do you propose for women who choose to control their own bodies and terminate their pregnancies?
Pmom,
You mean like the Wisconsin law where pregnant women can be jailed until delivery if a judge finds them to be a “danger” to their fetus?
WS and Tom, yes and YES!
But I do find the message disturbing about control of women. I do think many think only of the fetus, but totally disconnect the reality of what the’re doing to the fetus’s life as they grow up and become men and women themselves.
You only seem to matter in the womb. After that, get a job with insurance, or die we don’t care.
Threr are a lot of things in this world that are LEGAL, but yet are morally questionable.
Fortunately, we are a nation that believes in the Rule of Law and not the Rule of Morality…
Abortion is LEGAL… If it is not morally acceptable, then that can be dealt with by the One who deals Eternally with the Moral… IF the Pro-Life crowd had their theology straight, they would already know this, and leave the LEGALLY protected alone…
If you dont believe in abortion, dont have one… IF you believe it is morally wrong, Pray for those who have one… And get off the streets, and out of the faces of LAW ABIDING citizens…
And remember… PLEASE… once and for ALL TIME — Not everybody who believes in Pro-Choice is also Pro-Abortion…
Pro-Choice is exactly what is says: PRO CHOICE!!
Some day, maybe the Pro-Life group will understand what that means…
“Hey sol, did you know that people get mangled and ripped limb from limb driving a car? OH BAN AUTOMOBILES.”
How many people make the “choice” to get into a car and mangle a child? Whoops.
“Did you know that during a pregnancy, women can die from carrying that pregnancy?”What is the ratio of women who die during pregnancy in relation to babies dying during abortion?
Pmom I don’t doubt some of them think they are hearing voices. This happens to alot of bipolars. Does that mean the voice is God. Hardly.
The people you talk about are not the majority of prolifers. We are just like you, mostly normal, only we respect the life of an innocent baby.
Several have mentioned the constitutional right to have an abortion. This is an absolute falsehood. This is also the reason pro choice people fear the courts ruling someday that Roe V Wade was an incorrect ruling.
And Mike your assertion about terrorist is every bit as radical as the acts committed by the radical prolifers. Can the Gitmo bologna. American citizens do have constitutional rights even if you don’t agree with them.
Gitmo is where enemy combatants are held (and they shouldn’t be protected by our constitution). No comparison. Although you might be right about what will happen when/if the dems control the white house.
Just look at the number of IRS audits that took place during Bills reign. Almost all of them were key republicans and talk show hosts. Of course there was also that poor head of the travel office (Dale) that Hill kicked out because she had a friend she wanted there. Certainly her right, but she couldn’t just fire him she went after his entire life. Some vindictive woman!!
Believe it or not, that kind of thing happens in Kansas. I saw it when I worked in the ER.
“I cannot respect the pro-life position unless they actively support comprehensive sex education and the availability of birth control, especially condoms.”
100% with you.
“The symptom is abortion.The problem is unwanted pregnancies.”
A little off IMO. Irresponsible sex is the problem. Unwanted pregnancy is the symptom.
“The rare portion of the equation can only happen with education and the availability of birth control.Any discussion of abortion needs to begin the discussion of unwanted pregnancies, not the medical procedure.”
Okie dokie.
You’re right Nathan, there is nothing in the constitution that says I have the right to make decisions for my own life. You’re right Roe isn’t part of the constitution, but merely a law.
I’m not a huge fan of abortions but I’m not going to tell a woman who is brutally beaten and raped that she is going to have to keep and raise her new friend, Sam Brownback will but I’m not, and neither should some sleazy government bureaucrat. Are you gonna force women to have babies that have terminal illnesses, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills to prolong its life, maybe a month? Force women who themselves have severe medical conditions to choose between their life or that of their babies? Government bean counters shouldn’t have any decision in any situation
No, Sol, WS was correct. There are many women who get pregnant that are happily married and stable. And they still get abortions. Are they having irresponsible sex? Not usually. UNWANTED pregnancy is the problem.
Do you know how I ended up pregnant with my disabled son? We had already decided not to have any more children. It was a snowstorm…locked into town. My pharmacy doesn’t dispense morning after pills and I had run out during my 3 day snow in of regular birth control. When you miss so many doses, you have to wait a month till you can go back on them again.
I was so unhappy about finding I was pregnant. My daughter was 10- I was half done. I couldn’t have known at that time how disabled my son would be.
I love my son fiercly, but you know things have been damn hard for us, and it doesn’t make it any easier at all when it’s something you didn’t want to have in the first place.
Posted by: Tom Paine | August 21, 2007 at 12:54 PM
Tom P,
What is the ratio of women like you describe vs. couples that were just plain irresponsible?
Chas you never fail to disappoint:
“If you dont believe in abortion, dont have one… IF you believe it is morally wrong, Pray for those who have one… And get off the streets, and out of the faces of LAW ABIDING citizens… ”
Are you now saying that if prolifers feel strongly about a cause they don’t have the constitutional right to voice that opposition. I don’t mean break any laws but to voice their own opinions. I thought that was the right of all citizens and not just the leftwingers.
Sounds like the soviet/fascist state where all opposition were silenced and if they didn’t work eleminated. Oh that is what Mike is advocating (Gitmo).
The left needs to take a good hard look at themselves. They are seeing the splinter in the eye of others and missing the boulder in their own.
Yes, I thought the topic was about the clinic. Once again it’s been reduced to each faction yealling names at each other.
And curiously, most of it is by the male population. Tell ya what guys, when you can get pregnant you can have a choice in the matter. Until then, we women will be making our own decisions about our bodies, no comments from the peanut gallery needed. If you don’t like our decisions, well tough stuff.
“Do you know how I ended up pregnant with my disabled son? We had already decided not to have any more children. It was a snowstorm…locked into town. My pharmacy doesn’t dispense morning after pills and I had run out during my 3 day snow in of regular birth control. When you miss so many doses, you have to wait a month till you can go back on them again.”
OK, first of all, I don’t want to play on your hardship, but I will respond to the story you posted.
a) You still had sex when you knew you weren’t protected. That is irresponsible in my book.b) Have you considered the drugs you were putting into your body may have been the cause of your son’s problems?
“Yes, I thought the topic was about the clinic.”
OK, some idiots vandalized a clinic. Hope they get caught.
Great conversation folks?!?!?!
You mean smoking? I considered it, and I read a report that said smoking was the leading cause of autism, my guilt was seriously bad. But I have read x causes autism, even older parents cause autism…mercury..blah blah blah the list goes on and on. So one day in my autism group, we polled women on habits and shots and all these things. Turned out that only a small fraction of women were even exposed to smoke or smoked in their lifetime. I was in the even smaller minority who smoked during pregnancy…Out of a group of over 500 women, I think 5 of us did. So no, I don’t think smoking causes autism.
I will tell you that 80% of the group believed that vaccines played a ROLE in their child’s autism.
No Ksgrnm, that is NOT what I said… You quoted what I said, and you still MISSED IT!! I SAID… get out of the faces of LAW ABIDING citizens… YOUR right to freedom of speech STOPS where it crosses MY right of freedom of speech to disagree with yours… You have all the rights in the world to FREE SPEECH… but not in MY face, or on the property belonging to another…. Keep your anti-abortion rhetoric where it belongs… That is NOT out of keeping with FREE SPEECH!!!
And no sol, I’m not angry you asked at all. It was a valid question.
Part of the “irresponsible” label is due to the lack of education and part is due to the availability of birth control.
To answer in advance, yes some women and men have sex without regard to the consequences, but being forced to carry a child to term should not be forced on anyone that does not want to have a child.
Pregnancy should not be synonymous with punishment for having sex.
Adults have sex – it is a normal part of any relationship.
It is an interesting conundrum – should society force those that are irresponsible to have children?
A much better approach would be working to prevent those unwanted pregnancies.
Contrary to what Rush Limbaugh has said, pro-choice folks do not “dance a little jig whenever a woman has an abortion.”
And Mike your assertion about terrorist is every bit as radical as the acts committed by the radical prolifers. Can the Gitmo bologna. American citizens do have constitutional rights even if you don’t agree with them.
Gitmo is where enemy combatants are held (and they shouldn’t be protected by our constitution). No comparison. Although you might be right about what will happen when/if the dems control the white house.Posted by: ksgrm | August 21, 2007 at 12:49 PM
This double standard is the problem. Its ok to blow up a clinic and its workers with a pipe bomb. As long as you vote republican. I see. Thanks KSGRIM!!!
As far as having sex while unprotected, that’s TRUE, I did. But according to my cycle, I shouldn’t have been fertile during the time. I stayed abstinent during the ten days around when I should have been ovulating.
So I used a form of birth control, it just wasn’t good enough.
Or recite scripture while you do it. Oh wait, thats what Muslims do. Scratch that.
Ok Sol,Rather than discuss the morality of abortion, how about we discuss appropriate methods of non-violent opposition?Such as not drilling holes in a legitimate business and flooding it. Such as not blocking the entrance to a legal business. Such as not shooting the legitimate business owner? Such as not defacing, vandalizing or other such property damage, a legitimate business?
Obviously, the pro-choice side isn’t doing any of the things, only the pro-life side. So, where are the pro-lifers in calling on their own to be peaceful and law abiding? How about asking the pro-lifers not to scream in the face of a young woman making a very important decision in her life? How about giving her privacy and some prayer rather than judging her? How bout we work on that?
P_Mom,
Should have made myself more clear. You said you were taking a morning after pill. That was the drug I was refering to.
Rather than discuss the morality of abortion, how about we discuss appropriate methods of non-violent opposition?Such as not drilling holes in a legitimate business and flooding it. Such as not blocking the entrance to a legal business. Such as not shooting the legitimate business owner? Such as not defacing, vandalizing or other such property damage, a legitimate business?
Posted by: WichiWomn | August 21, 2007 at 01:12 PM
Ah contraire, you are witnessing it at present !!!
Contrary to what Rush Limbaugh has said, pro-choice folks do not “dance a little jig whenever a woman has an abortion.” WS
That’s so true, you don’t even know. The women in my group ALL have discussed this issue as tragic, none of us want to ever have to need one. In our group every single one of us are mothers. We want to make sure that it be available if we or our loved ones should ever need it.
“Obviously, the pro-choice side isn’t doing any of the things, only the pro-life side.”
Sorry, c&P’d the wrong thing…
I didn’t take the morning after pills, they weren’t sold at our pharmacy. I was on birth control pills before I got pregnant. So I’d have been off of them for two weeks before I got pregnant.
I don’t think there’s a correlation- at least not that I’ve read. They’re normal hormones anyway.
Wichiwoman is my Shero! I wish she’d post more often!
So, where are the pro-lifers in calling on their own to be peaceful and law abiding? How about asking the pro-lifers not to scream in the face of a young woman making a very important decision in her life? How about giving her privacy and some prayer rather than judging her? How bout we work on that?
Posted by: WichiWomn | August 21, 2007 at 01:12 PM
I am pro-life, and I see no problem with what you have just posted.
“Should it be ILLEGAL for a pregnant woman to smoke and drink?
What steps should the government take to prevent pregnant women from smoking and drinking?
Posted by: brian | August 21, 2007 at 12:40 PM ”
I was really hoping some of the pro-lifers would respond to this. I am curious how they reconcile these questions with their pro-life stance.
PMDon’t you know that the Rush Limbaugh statement is how most of the reich wing views non-reich wingers. I bet they think we work on a schedule like this:8:00 Wake Up8:15 Bowl of Stem Cells for Breakfast8:45 Shower with the blood of the unborn9:00 Impregnate woman10:00 Schedule Abortion10:30 Spit on a soldier11:00 Get in line for Gov’t assistanceNOON Bowl of Stem Cells for Lunch1:00 Meet with our gay lover2:00 Burn down a church3:00 Small bowl of Stem Cells for Snack4:00 Pray to the Devil5:00 Take underage girl to get abortion scheduled earlier in the day
“Should it be ILLEGAL for a pregnant woman to smoke and drink?
What steps should the government take to prevent pregnant women from smoking and drinking?
Posted by: brian | August 21, 2007 at 12:40 PM ”
I don’t know. Isn;t some nanny state making it illegal to snoke in the car if you have kids in the car with you? As I recall, that is celebrated by many a liberal.
Sol, the ratio doesn’t matter the fact is that abortions are relatively cheap, that being so its cheaper for the crack addict, alcoholic, meth head and so on to have abortions than for the screwed up kids to become wards of the state living in the state hospitals because their unadoptable. Its cheaper for the high school freshman to have an abortion vs dropping out of school skipping college and becoming a welfare mom. the Solutions to ending abortions involve the spending of tax dollars to fund programs that help mothers unfortunately most of us don’t want are taxes raises to pay for said programs.
That’s wrong, Mike. I get up at nine-thirty am after a hard night of drinking and smoking pot.
me too Pmom, but alas…I am limited. Although I know you can stand up for yourself, and I’m so proud that you do I had to speak up. And kudos to Tom as well.
Sol, I don’t see much discussion about how to have non-violent opposition.
So how about we start with “no trespassing”? Can the pro-life group agree to that?
Boy the silence is deafening.
This double standard is the problem. Its ok to blow up a clinic and its workers with a pipe bomb. As long as you vote republican. I see. Thanks KSGRIM!!!
Posted by: Mike | August 21, 2007 at 01:10 PM
Mike since I don’t know one prolifer who has blown up a clinic, I can only guess that in your own radical way you have made a bad assumption about who is blowing up clinics. Did I miss something or in the reporting of this news story did they mention they were registered voters and voted republican?
So many of you are so radical you are scary and you think pro-lifers are violent.
A Little Louder-
I Am Pro-life, and I See No Problem with what You have just Posted.
Posted by: littlejohn | August 21, 2007 at 01:24 PM
Lol WS
And LJ, thank you. That’s my point, we’ll never solve this issue for either side. Let’s just agree to disagree and leave it at that. No need for name calling and all that.
Waves at LJ…I heard you!
WSI apologize, I thought I was the only one that woke up and smoked a bowl. Welcome to the wake and bake club.
KSGRIMYou dillusions are not healthy. Did we forget the bombing of the Olympics in 1996? Or the bombings around the country? Maybe your age is contributing to your memeory loss. You should be scared of the pro choice movement. They are going to be in control of Gitmo(thanks Bush) very soon. Its easy to label someone and suspend their constitutional rights. Your administration has proven that.
This isssue will never be resolved to the liking of large numbers of people on either side. There are ignorant, mean spirited folks on each side, calling each other murderers and terrorists. There are those so invested on one side that they cannot even think of the other side having ANY validity. So it goes on, and on, and on.
Wichi woman I would draw your attention to the pro-lifers annual demonstration for life. They line up from Kellogg on Rock and go as far as they can in both directions. I’m not sure when this is but have seen it a few times. They stand silently and hold signs that say we support life. Never have I seen or heard them holler at anyone. I have seen them have things thrown at them, be spit on and called names. All this while silently exercising their right to free speech.
These are the real pro-lifers. Not the violent attention grabbers you talk about.
Tom while I appreciate your right to speak about many subjects, I have always wondered why your voice is always the first one out their touting a womans feeling when pregnant. As a woman I think I have more right to talk about this. This is a time when hormones are going crazy and women do not always have rational thoughts. Most husbands will agree on this point.
This will never be decided in a blog nor by a law.
Anti-woman, anti-choice, “pro-life” folks:
I have a question.
Should abortion be outlawed, what punishment do you propose for women who choose to control their own bodies and terminate their pregnancies?
Posted by: Tom | August 21, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Over an hour, dozens of posts, and no so-called “pro-lifer” has an answer?
Figures.
Women don’t have rational thoughts while pregnant, which is why they don’t get to decide what’s best for them?
Well I do agree that pregnancy can be a seriously trying and emotional time- it ADDS to the stress which is why I support mental health exceptions. in some cases it can lead to full blown psychosis and suicide. I certainly think I was capable the entire way through of having rational thoughts. Perhaps women should be stripped of their living children since they can’t make wise decisions during pregnancy?
That’s got to be the most pathetic overall statement to dismiss women’s ability to choose what’s right for themselves. How incredibly awful of you.
Pmom,
We all know women are nothing more than irrational containment facilities for unborn fetuses.
Jeeeeze.
Doncha know NOTHIN?
They’ve already answered, just look at the laws and their effects Tom. Hundreds of women around the country jailed and imprisoned for what they did during pregnancy. They won’t answer because they don’t want people to know.
Hey Tom I wanted to ask you how many letters you get from God too. I know you’ve got to get them as well.
Pmom,
I get one of those every month or two. About as often as I get a call either on my mobile or office number, telling me I’m going to hell.
How many of you received a letter from the “Kansans For Life” group, asking for donations and for signed petitions asking for a Grand Jury investigation of Dr. Tiller?
I sent mine back – forms crossed out so that they could not be reused and without postage so that they would have to pick up the tab.
The package came addressed to “Resident.”
I have to admit that I added a few comments to the forms – no profanity – but pointed comments nonetheless.
No profanity?
This is not the real WS Clark, it must be that darn troll again. He is trying to ruin WS Clarks bad name.
I’m pregnant, so I guess you’ll all forgive me if I decide to go off on an irrational rant, right?
Tom I am really not aware of what you do other than blog but the question from Pmom that you are getting letters from God piqued my curosity.
As for the punishment. I have not nor will I advocate punishment for women who choose abortion. That doesn’t mean that I can’t have a prolife stance. I am also against the death penalty. Neither of these choices are dictated by my Christian beliefs. Just my own opinions.
Saying pregnant women can be irrational is pretty logical to me. I know I was very emotional with all three of mine.
Pmom I also object to the morning after pill for reasons other that spiritual. I don’t believe that it is safe enough to put on the market without severe limitations. Many pharmacists share this opinion.
Are you following me around, Nathan?
WS,
Is this the same Kansans for Life that Meadowlark made such a big deal over not having any money a while back? Where he tried to claim they only bring in $20,000 or so a year?
A mailing campaign like what they’re doing isn’t cheap. So either A) Meadowlark wasn’t being honest or B) KFL stole someone else’s postal permit.
Aaaaahhhhh, the odor of self-righteous hypocrisy…
Ks grm -yes I’ve seen them. I would concede and agree this is acceptable behavior. I for one do not condone any vile behavior towards those folks.
However, I was referring to those that block the streets, sidewalks and driveways. Protestors that lay their own children down in the street in front of a vehicle or chain themselves to the vehicle. Those that climb trees in alleys and ditches to shout judgement at women in the parking lot. Those that have shouted at me with such hatred and venom that I will burn in hell because I was escorting a frightened young woman into a legitimate business. And finally, those taking pictures of the same frightened young women and their license plates, further intimidating them.
All that said, there are folks on both sides who need guidance about appropriate behavior towards others. It could start with us. : )
I don’t know, am I talking to the real WS Clark or a troll?
Lynz I can assure you that if you haven’t had them yet, you will. Your body is hormoning up to be a mother and you’ll need more fortitude than you had before. So go for it and be irrational! This is the only time you have a real reason.
This is the only name I have used on this blog and this is my real name.
Got a problem with that?
Anti-woman, anti-choice, “pro-life” folks:
I have a question.
Should abortion be outlawed, what punishment do you propose for women who choose to control their own bodies and terminate their pregnancies?
Posted by: Tom | August 21, 2007 at 12:45 PM
Over an hour, dozens of posts, and no so-called “pro-lifer” has an answer?
Figures.
Posted by: Tom | August 21, 2007 at 01:48 PM
I will answer. Then your “figures” comment is just another mudsling
I would not prosecute the mother. I would prosecute the doctor for doing what is outside his scope of practice and commiting an illegal act. The same as can be said of many things now.
I have often stated my opinion about abortions on this board. I believe them to be reasonable and not “putting women into slavery”. Geesh. As a short cut, without all the mumbo jumbo, i believe that a woman should have access to a morning after pill. I believe a woman shoulld have umnlimited acces to abortion during the first trimester, limited access in the second trimester, and none, except for the 1) the likelihood of the mother 2) possibley the permanent disability/ impairment of a major bodily function on the mother, or some possible fetal impairment discovered at that point during the third. That position takes allrape cases out of the picture, most incest cases oput of thepicture, and allows women to control their bodies until the baby is viable.
thereis a big difference between irrational and emotional ksgrm. I was extremely emotional. I was never irrational.
The morning after pills are extremely safe, so much so that I question how much you actually looked into it before making that assumption. Their safety rating is HIGHER than sudafed (as a medication not as a meth ingredient). Are you going around asking that they remove Sudafed off the market?
And free birth control for all!
Littlejohn,
You’d make a woman continue a pregnancy forced on her by a stranger in the case of one kind of rape, or forced on her by a father or uncle or brother in another kind of rape? Basically, other than that, you’re already stating Kansas law.
At least the Catholic Church is consistent… You wont hear any Catholics calling for the execution of abortion doctors or women who have abortions… since they dont believe in the Death Penalty… I am not sure where the rocks are where those who advocate execution for abortion crawl out from, but Iknow they are out there somewhere…
I think I could live with your viewpoints littlejohn. They seem very reasonable.
And free birth control for all!
Posted by: WichiWomn | August 21, 2007 at 02:06 PM
Nope. No pro-life/pro-choice decision here. Just don;t believe in handouts that much. Condoms are cheap.
Littlejohn,
You’d make a woman continue a pregnancy forced on her by a stranger in the case of one kind of rape, or forced on her by a father or uncle or brother in another kind of rape? Posted by:
Tom | August 21, 2007 at 02:07 PM
How so? You mean that they couldn;t get an abortion in the first or second trimester?
Littlejohn,
In the case of minors, or even of women who are the victims of extreme domestic violence, the options aren’t always as easy as they seem at first glance.
I have known women and minors in both posstions. ANd I reiterate my statement and AND my position
Pmom
“Six other women have died after taking RU-486, according to health officials. Five of the women were found to have died from an infection caused by a rare bacterium, Clostridium sordellii. The deaths, which have occurred since RU-486 was approved in 2000, have led some abortion providers to change the way they give pill-based abortions, which some experts say might make women more susceptible to infection.”
These and other articles about the test ran in European countries have led me to believe that we might have rushed to market this because of demand before it’s safety was assured.
Wichi I can assure I will never stand on a street corner and yell at anyone. I would never trespass on private property. I will continue to think that taking the life of the unborn is wrong for the unborn. I will make no judgement of the woman who makes this decision.
That is how I and many others like me feel.
See, and that is exactly WHY I said you were ignorant ksgrm. RU486 and Morning after pills aren’t the same thing.
Try again.
ksgrm,
This isn’t my first pregnancy. I’m already a mom. My husband or anyone who really knows me can tell you that I never jumped on the irrational roller coaster. Cranky? Sure. Tired? Absolutely. But irrational was never in the mix.
I am the father of multiple children, all by the same woman, who was and is my wife before, during and after. She was never irrational. Her behavior, however, forces me into lapses of irrationality! :)
Political Mom,
You are playing silly word games. RU 486 is commonly refered to as a morning after pill.
No one is ignorant. If you wish to discuss a particular drug, then lets discuss it, instead of trying to trap someone in a word game.
Nathan:one word of advice: Wikipedia
“No one is ignorant.”
Then why do you repeatedly refer to people that disagree with you as being “ignorant” Nathan?
Sorry for any confusion. The context of my statement:
“No one is ignorant.”
was made in regards to this topic only.
It was not meant as a stand alone sentence to be taken as my saying that in all matters, No one is ignorant.
I thought it was rather obvious that the statement was only meant to be taken in context to this discussion.
I guess you were to ignorant to figure it out.
Anyone referring to RU 486 as the “morning after pill” really has no idea what they’re talking about. _Emergency contraception_ is also known as the morning after pill, but it is NOT the same as RU 486. Get it together Nathan.
I am not saying RU 486 should be called the morning after pill.
I am saying that many do call it that. A simple fact, not an argument.
“I guess you were to ignorant to figure it out.”
Nope, just pointing out your hypocrisy.
From NARAL, and here’s the link if you’d like to read for yourself:http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/issues/birth_control/emergency-contraception/difference-ec-ru486.html
“The line between contraception and abortion is often blurred, intentionally and unintentionally, in the course of policy discussions on emergency contraception (also known as the “morning-after” pill) and the early-abortion option mifepristone (also known as RU 486). The distinction between the two is important, especially since anti-choice lawmakers are trying to restrict women’s access to these and other reproductive-health services. Emergency contraception prevents a pregnancy after sex whereas mifepristone terminates a pregnancy.”
From WIkipedia
Mifepristone is a synthetic steroid compound used as a pharmaceutical. It is used as an abortifacient in the first two months of pregnancy, and in smaller doses as an emergency contraceptive. It can also be used as a treatment for obsetric bleeding.[1] During early trials, it was known as RU-486, its designation at the Roussel Uclaf company, which designed the drug.
Ooops. Guess it is the same. Although, I agree that it is commonly thought and used otherwise
My mistake. I haven’t been in the birth control business for a few years and when RU486 was first marketed it was as a morning after pill. Morally I am not opposed to this but medically speaking don’t feel it is as safe as it should be.
Ignorance is a large word to throw around PMom. It would make you pretty suseptible to lots of critizism. I try to play as fair as anyone with the exception of Woosss because he really has no couth. Won’t call him ignorant though.
Coming from the generation of the thalydomide babies I am highly critical of any type of medication during pregnancy and RU486 has a high failure rate for birth control. I read somewhere that 1 in 30 cases end up in a live pregnancy.
Just MOHO.
The difference being, from what I found is that RU486 terminates a pregnancy – forces the body to eject and implanted fertilized egg. The EC as they are calling it, blocks the egg, egg fertilization, or fertilized egg from implanting.
My, My, Tom has been busy today! Sock puppets? Big Tom (former lobbyist whore) post pimpin the liberal, pro-abort, Dem’s position!!! Tom, does your employed lobbyist(or when you use to lobby)prostitute abortion on demand to elected officals?
See how easy it is to respond to extreme negative comments with the same! Tom and others, broad brush Christian, pro-life conservatives. No middle ground!
Vandilsim is AGAINST the law. If, the vandals are caught, DA Foulston will procecute them, on behalf of Tiller. Those type of cases along with car theft, aren’t usually procecuted.
Vandilsim is AGAINST the law. If, the vandals are caught, DA Foulston will procecute them, on behalf of Tiller. Those type of cases along with car theft, aren’t usually procecuted.
Posted by: not impressed | August 21, 2007 at 03:02 PM
If not, they should be
Does the controversial drug, RU-486, |prevent’ or “terminate” pregnancy.? While pro-lifers threaten boycotts against companies that produce it, some feminists question the drug’s safety.
Is RU-486 an “abortion drug,” as pro-life adherents argue – or is it actually an “emergency contraceptive,” the term favored by pro-choice groups? That’s the debate under way now in San Francisco, where doctors at the University of California have begun clinical trials of the controversial drug.
“This is a method for emergency contraception,” says Dr. David Grimes, a UC professor of obstetrics and gynecology who is leading the trials. “It is designed to prevent conception from starting and is not an abortion study.”
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n27_v10/ai_15544306
I guess it would be on who is calling whom ignorant. Why the bared claws anyhow Pmom. Can’t your opinions be questioned? Are you that insecure in your position?
typo spelling error OOPS: meant PROSECUTE!
ignorant means she was ignorant of the facts of this discussion. Most people who are informed in this know that the morning after pills are NOT the same as the abortion pill RU486. They’ve never been called the same thing except those that are so anti-choice that they don’t believe in birth control. They call it morning after pills on purpose to mislead others into believing they’re one in the same. SO here is the fact. MORNING AFTER PILLS also called PLAN B or EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION are nothing more than a higher dose of birth control pills that blocks the fertilization of the egg. It’s mode of action is not fully known, but some still consider it to be an ‘abortiofacent’ because it MAY (keyword MAY) prevent the implantation of a fertilized egg (kindof a chemical IUD). But the most comprehensive studies are showing that it’s more likely a total preventative measure blocking ovulation completely. Morning after pills MUST be taken within 72 hours of sex to be effective and the earlier the better.
RU486 You must be confirmed pregnant to take RU486 because it does cause an ABORTION. RU486 is something you’d take weeks into a pregnancy. And it does have higher safety risks, but when compared to birth and abortion, the risks are lower than those. RU486 IS a true abortiofacent. The method in which RU486 has been administered has been in question moreso because it had been previously considered ok to put the pill directly into the vaginal cavity- which seems to correlate with a risk of higher infection, sepsis and death. Doctors were giving it in this fashion to try to cut down on the unpleasant side effects such as nausea. However, vaginal administration is now banned in the US because of those concerns. I doubt you can even get RU486 with a prescription in any pharmacy. It must be administered by a doctor I believe.
jesus christ woman, please, please grow a brain. Whoever wrote that article was completely uninformed. SHE was writing about RU486…the DOCTOR she quoted was talking about EC. She confused the two in her article- I certainly HOPE it was unintentional, but I have my doubts. How far did you have to finally dig to find something that said they’re the same thing?
According to that article ksgrm the doctor was referring to a study about the potential of using RU-486 as contraception rather than just using it as something to use after a woman is pregnant. Regardless, it still isn’t the same as Plan-B so it would be nice if you wouldn’t intentionally try to be dishonest about the issue.
Here for the love of God woman, educate yourself. From the FDA’s own flipping Powerpoint.
http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/03/slides/4015S1_02_Barr-Presentation_files/frame.htm#slide4745.htm
“Should it be ILLEGAL for a pregnant woman to smoke and drink?What steps should the government take to prevent pregnant women from smoking and drinking?Posted by: brian | August 21, 2007 at 12:40 PM “
Ksgrm and Nathan, any thoughts on this one?
Well Pmom bless your little heart for all of that info. You sure are helpful today. Don’t bother reading anything other than your own posts and you won’t put yourself in danger of being enlightened. This has ceased being a pleasant afternoon.
I try not to call others (except WS) names and think that is what is wrong with this blog. When you have a problem with someone’s else’s opinion you start throwing around the labels, ergo WS’s liar label. It would be ever so much more enjoyable if constructive dialogue were employed. There might even be a chance to influence the thought process of someone else.
Life calls.
Some people call scratching itching, but that does not mean they are the same thing.
Well you know Brian I was on my way out but for you:
I think that if Pmom wants to poison her unborn child by drinking arsenic she should be allowed to do just that. As far as drinking while pregnant, I would refer you to Donnie Wacker, a fine specimen. In case you don’t remember him, he was the co defendant with Doil Lane in the Nancy Shewmaker murder. He was also the victim of fetal acohol syndrom.
Mr Shewmaker might not agree with me about the arsenic or the liquor.
But Grm, I kept telling you they weren’t the same thing and you kept trying to say it was. This isn’t merely a matter of opinion, this is you being completely WRONG about it. If you said I think the morning after pills are wrong because they keep a fertilized egg from implanting, THAT is an informed opinion worthy of debate. But that’s not what you were putting out there. I said you were ignorant of the real facts and showed you why and YOU STILL held onto that belief. How do I debate your opinion if you tell me grass is purple?
Not impressed,
What’s with the Tom-bashing? Not cool.
Lynz,
“not impressed” is probably some snot-nosed punk with barely enough sense to breathe on his own. He can bash away for all I care (_you_ know how thick my skin is!).
But thanks :)
“not impressed,”
I was never a “lobbyist whore.” I’ve never been paid a dime for any lobbying I’ve done; it’s been all volunteer time, done “in between” other responsibilities (such as earning a living). Sometimes people care deeply enough about an issue to stand up for what’s right, whether or not they get paid.
Nice try at the ad hominems, though.
The first of the report by Christiane Amanpour will appear tonight on CNN – God’s Warriors. It examines religious zealots in Christianty, Islam and Judaism. From the hype and the information I could find online it has an interesting link to this blog because it examines religious zealots who believe they are inspired by the divine to do whatever they want and justify it because it is – divine. Right?
Committing crime against anyone, anywhere is completey unacceptable in a society of laws. As the US battles religious zealots worldwide and topples theocratic governments (historically) to “democratize” and free the oppressed, the Christian right in this country continues to move towards what they were initially running from. A theocracy was what the founders of our country ran from – not to.
And yes I believe we (the US) have a rich history of Christianity but in our democracy abortion is legal. We cannot and will not accept crime and harrassment (also a crime)against women who seek abortions and medical professionals who provide the clinical services.
And yes I believe we (the US) have a rich history of Christianity but in our democracy abortion is legal. We cannot and will not accept crime and harrassment (also a crime)against women who seek abortions and medical professionals who provide the clinical services.
Posted by: Lonnie | August 21, 2007 at 03:48 PM
I agree. I will also agree that anyone, regardless of the source of those beliefs, has a right to petition to their representatives for laws that uphold those belioefs. It is up to the government to accept or rejects such attempts at legislatiion, and the courts to rule their constitutionality
WOW! Closed for three whole weeks. He’s loosing major money, but babies are being saved. The mold problem is probably from all the blood from the unborn babies being killed.
Wheelie has a reading comprehension problem.
“On July 4, two masked vandals drilled a hole in the roof of the clinic, inserted a garden hose, then glued the water spigot open, flooding a room in the clinic, according to the Wichita Police Department”
“Sometimes people care deeply enough about an issue to stand up for what’s right, whether or not they get paid.”
Kind of like the pro-life folks?
If you think abortion is murder, act like it.
Fleettwood,
I think _killing_ people is murder. Such as what Paul Hill and Eric Robert Rudolph did.
I think forcing women to be nothing more than containment facilities for fetuses is slavery.
“I think forcing women to be nothing more than containment facilities for fetuses is slavery.”
Actions (and lack of action) have consequences.
Fleettwood,
Tell that to a woman who has been raped. Tell that to a child who has been abused by her father.
Tell them the consequences for being women is involuntary servitude to your sensibilities.
“Tell that to a woman who has been raped. Tell that to a child who has been abused by her father.”
We’re not really talking about those two situations, now are we.
We aren’t? I am. I can think of very few _better_ reasons to keep abortions safe and legal.
“I can think of very few _better_ reasons to keep abortions safe and legal.”
That’s part of the problem. You people want every abortion to be safe and legal, not just those two reasons. I’m all for the rape and incest exception.
Rape and incest account for less than 1 percent of abortions. NY TIMES
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=950DE1DC1039F930A25753C1A96F948260
Lynz, you must be new, or you would know that Tom bashes with venom, daily, the Christian Right and Pro-Life conservatives.
Sorry to disappoint you both; I am a woman, my nose is not in need of a kleenex. I have been breathing (thinking & researching too),on my own for many years!
Tom, glad to know you care so deeply about issues, that you volunteer your time lobbying for them! And, you pay someone in your employ to take time off of work to do the same. God Bless You!
Fine, Fleettwood. That’s the beginning of agreement. Women have a right to their own bodies, irrespective of the circumstances of their pregnancies or the viability of the fetuses.
I’m glad to see you start to come around on this issue.
Littlejohn,
That’s a 1989 article about a 1987 study. Do you have something a little more current? Something where the actual study is floating around on the internet, and whose methodology can be looked at?
Tom-
not for now I don;t. but I’m outta here for now. Maybe get a chance to look later. Yeah, it’s a little old, but it wasn;t pro-choice publicaiton, Guttmacher institute. (Planned Parenthood)
“I’m glad to see you start to come around on this issue.”
I’ve come around to less than 1% of the issue.
Not impressed,
I’m not a newbie, and I know Tom better than most on this blog. I just couldn’t help but notice you throwing the first punch today. What ever happened to “turning the other cheek?”
Really outta here now. Can;t do a good look at this report, but here’s another. Don;t know the veracity of the report, but I can tarry no longer. See ya all!
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html#3
Would the exceptions of Rape, Incest, & Life of the mother, and not on demand thru all 9 months, be commonground pro-aborts can support?
“not impressed,”
Not knowing anyone who is a “pro-abort,” I can’t answer for them. Perhaps you should find a “pro-abort” and ask them.
Tom, I think pro-aborts are those who want to refuse contraception to women so they are forced to get an abortion. That would be groups like Kansans for Life and Operation Rescue.
See I think it’s women who are the only ones who can decide when their life is in danger from carrying a baby. So in my mind, “on demand” and “life of the mother” are one in the same.
Lynz, go back and read Tom’s posts! Maybe, I did personalize my comments specifically to him! As I said, he posts with venom daily his position against the Christain Right, and Pro-lifers. Any measured attempt to counter his comments are met with broadbrushed comparisons and namecalling of Fred Phelps, Nazi Hitler Policies,and Taliban Terrorists. Fine, Fairgame, I’m turning the other cheek!
So you know Tom? I can’t say by reading the other posts, that I can determine I know who any of the individuals are.
broadbrushed comparisons and namecalling of Fred Phelps, Nazi Hitler Policies,and Taliban Terrorists.Posted by: not impressed | August 21, 2007 at 05:02 PM
Find where I’ve compared any poster here to any of those people. Paste it in, and be sure to include the name and date of the thread/blog entry.
Thanks.
Tom, a Pro-Abort is someone that supports Abortion. A pro-lifer is someone that supports life of the mother AND baby!
“not impressed,”
A woman is more than a uterus with a mouth at one end and a vagina at the other. I support a woman’s right not to be a slave to her uterus.
That doesn’t make me “pro-abort,” any more than your insistence that every woman carry every fetus to term makes you “pro rape.”
Doug, I believe in contraception! Not all pro-life supporters agree on that issue!
Tom, I think pro-aborts are those who want to refuse contraception to women so they are forced to get an abortion. That would be groups like Kansans for Life and Operation Rescue.
Posted by: Doug | August 21, 2007 at 05:01 PM
And of course the entire Catholic Church!
Tom, you are becoming rattled. As a woman, I am not going to dignify your last comments!
Michael,
Not all Catholics support the decrees of the church hierarchy. Check out http://www.catholicsforchoice.org
“not impressed,”
You mean, you don’t have a response? Again, calling someone who supports a woman’s right to control her own body “pro abortion” makes just as much sense as calling someone who opposes all abortions “pro rape.”
And you’re right, such statements _are_ undignified. Just like calling someone you’ve never met a “whore,” and whatever other names you’ve slung at me today.
:)
Doug and Tom, your line of comments (and belief system) are the reason, the country and the U.S. Supreme Court are reconsidering Roe V Wade. Almost 35 years after Roe became the law of the land, abortion has moved beyond the Courts original intent. Which is now, on demand thur all 9 months.
A late term abortion takes place over a 3 day period. The woman is placed into labor. If the mental health exception is used and an abortion is preformed in the last trimester, on a viable baby how could a woman’s emotional wellbeing not suffer? Why would adoption not be a healthier choice?
“around the labels, ergo WS’s liar label.”
Posted by: ksgrm | August 21, 2007 at 03:25 PM
Let’s rehash it just one more time…
Grm claimed that President Clinton ignored the USS Cole attack because “he was busy lying to the Grand Jury.”
I pointed out that Clinton’s Grand Jury testimony was in 1998, not in November 2000 when the Cole was attacked.
Then Grm said that her son was stationed in the Middle East when the Cole was attacked and he and everyone else knew that al Qaeda was behind the attack.
I pointed out that the CIA did not confirm the origins of the attack until January 2001 and that Bush did nothing about the attacks.
Later, Grm stated that her son left the Navy in 1992 because Clinton cut the pay scale for the military.
I pointed out that Clinton was Governor of Arkansas in 1992.
Then Grm changed her tune and said that her son left the Navy in 1994.
I pointed out that her son could not have been stationed in the Middle East in November 2000 if he left the Navy in 1994.
Then she said all sorts of nasty things about me.
Then I pointed out that she was obviously a liar.
And now she whines about me all the time.
But the list of her lies and debunked stories is long and endless – like the Polish troops finding WMD – a story that has been debunked more often than the exploding biscuits story.
Tough shit.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck, it probably is a duck.
You are playing silly word games. RU 486 is commonly refered to as a morning after pill.
I am not saying RU 486 should be called the morning after pill.Posted by Nathan, 2:35 p.m.
====================
I am saying that many do call it that. A simple fact, not an argument.
Posted by: Nathan | August 21, 2007 at 02:53 PM
Want to have it both ways, huh???
Chas,
No.
“Doug and Tom, your line of comments (and belief system) are the reason, the country and the U.S. Supreme Court are reconsidering Roe V Wade.”
Really? Hmmm, I figured it was the anti-choicers who were leading the attack against the right to privacy. Oh well, not like lying propaganda is anything new to my ears.
Tom and I support the Constitutional right to privacy. We don’t feel the government should make the choice for women to control their reproductive options. Medical choices should be left to the doctor and the patient, not some foaming mouth religious terrorist with one hand on his bible and the other on a boy’s genitals.
I can just smell the desperation when Tom and I are equated with the terrorists trying to overturn reproductive freedom. How utterly pathetic.
GOOD!!! RU 486 is not now, nor has ever been a “morning after” pill… it is an ABORTION pill…
the EC pill is the “morning after” pill… a contraceptive… And you might try checking with WebMD.com, instead of Wikipedia… WebMD posts arent normally changed to meet the needs of some group like Wikipedia…
“not impressed,”
And here I thought SCOTUS was reviewing abortion cases because the pro-rape crowd can’t keep their hands off women’s uteri.
As to the rest of your argument, it’s up to the woman and her physician and/or mental health counselor, whether psychologist or psychiatrist, to determine what is healthy for the woman. Not me. Not you. Not Troy Newman. Not terrorists like Cheryl Sullenger, Eric Robert Rudolph, or Paul Jennings Hill or Shelly Shannon.
NI, depends on the situation. Late term means anytime past the second trimester, that’s a WHOLE lot longer than 3 days.
Tom, WS, isn’t it great we’re being blamed for Roe’s downfall. If I recall, Roe didn’t have a timeline.
Nice answer Doug! LOL!
Pmom,
The Nazi / Phelps stuff started way back upthread. What a joke!
Hey Tom you showing up tonight?
Doug,
Yes.
Tom, in a post last week, where you were doing the same old type of bash posting. I inquired if you were an elected offical, or a lobbyist, since you challenged my knowledge about how a law is passed in Topeka. The gambling bill was the topic of conversation. You said you were not an elected offical, but had been a lobbyist at one time, and do currently have a lobbyist employed. I stated, to one of your response bashings of another poster, that I think lobbyists are whores! Isn’t it fair game to respond in kind, when you and your like-minded posters agree with each others comments? At times, there’s a feeding frenzy and civil attempts at posting differing views get trampled over.
By the way I didn’t call you a whore, since you are no longer the lobbyist. I did ask if you prostituted for your liberal Democrat positions when you used to lobby. AND I’ve never refer to your body parts in an undigified way!
I do sincerely apologize for moving OFF subject and calling you names. You most likely are a nice liberal Democrat pro-choicer.
“Big Tom (former lobbyist whore) post pimpin the liberal, pro-abort, Dem’s position!!! Tom, does your employed lobbyist(or when you use to lobby)prostitute abortion on demand to elected officals?”Posted by: not impressed | August 21, 2007 at 03:02 PM
Whore. Pimp. Prostitute. My my. How quickly we forget.
Tom, late term abortion, 3rd trimester is 7-to 9 months. The 3 days in my post (re-read it) is the length of time it takes to terminate a late term pregnancy! It’s -a- 3- day – procedure! Get the material from Tiller’s office!
tom, you win, I’m bad, I called you names, in which I owned up to. If it makes you feel more like a man to continue in this vein you go right ahead. I’m done!
WS every time you tell this story you embellish a little more. What date was this cyber conversation we had? Show me the entire link. Afraid to do this. Show the entire board. Afraid your lies and battering will be exposed?
Put up or shut up. Stop denigating the brave men, my son being one, that fought and are fighting for our country. Stop making fun of the men on this blog who are drawing military retirements they are entitled to. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah your number didn’t come up. I know. Ever heard of volunteering.
There aren’t any American soldiers currently fighting for our country unless our country happens to be Afghanistan and Iraq.
Clark, ignore her… email me sometime… CapN has my email address… ok??
Not impressed it is a waste of good time to try to talk logic with any on the left of this blog. Their minds get stuck on a track and you couldn’t jar them lose with a stick of dynamite.
Could be why the dem congress’s approval ratings are dropping like a rock. New numbers out today. New low!!
Think if they could jar their heads off the fired judges and get on to the business of our country they might score some points. On wait they have to investigate Rove next and then they still have Cheney to get to and then Bush’s impeachment. The people don’t care – Pelosi doesn’t get it and she hasn’t cleaned the house yet.
ksgrm
I haven’t been around very long and I’ve seen you lie and deny.
You have no credibility until you at least admit that you’ve posted lies.
I agree with you Doug!!
Chas so good of you to comfort poor Wooss. Although you are a ‘pastor’ so maybe you can help him. Believe me he needs all the help he can get. Then maybe you could charge a little for your advise and it will serve two purposes. He will get help and you will get a job.
Well Michael I will give you the same challege I gave Wooss. Put up or shut up.
the bile is sure flowing from the nasty, fascist, bush apologists this evening isn’t it?
Maybe we just got tired of the tripe regurgitated continually from the left. Maybe we get tired of having to apologize for a suppossed slight to the whiners on the left.Maybe I am just being irrational or unreasonable – whichever. You define that – the left is very good at that. What is ‘is’ really?
My my Isnt Ksgrm such a kind, nice, person… seems she took her lessons well from good ole Kahn on insults… MY CAREER has nothing to do with what I have said here SO FAR… So, keep your NOSE out of MY profession…. Cause if you dont know any more about what I DO than what you think you know about RU486 and EC, then you know diddly squat!!!
I get REAL tired of you self righteous people pretending to know SO MUCH… and you know so LITTLE — did you miss out where I have posted ohhhh several times the past week now… I AM BACK TO WORK AGAIN!!!! NANNER NANNER NANNER!!! roflmao!!!!!! NOW LETS SEE YOU TRY TO LIE YOUR WAY OUT OF THAT ONE!!!
Maybe I am just being irrational or unreasonablePosted by: ksgrm | August 21, 2007 at 06:40 PM
I think we could safely edit out the “maybe” part of that statement.
:)
IF YOU THINK CLERGY CHARGE FOR COUNSELING SERVICES… you better take THAT one back… because that is just not DONE!!!
At least not by reputable clergy…
People! The problem is not with Tiller or abortions, the problem is there is not enough education for these people who find themselves pregnant and have abortions! I myself, I am definately FOR abortions…I’ve had one almost 10 years ago in my 40’s. I don’t regret it and it was between myself and our maker. That is beside the point, I am old enough to know. Kids (teens) having kids is not right. I would much rather see Planned Parenthood giving out birth control (meaning birth control pills) to these teens where they won’t become pregnant and have babies. Or better yet! If a parent thinks that their teen is having sex, take them immediately to the Doctor, do not pass go, get them some form of Birth Control that will work. Now granted, we have a lot of low income kids that can’t afford that kind of care but, that is where low cost clinics and Planned Parenthood comes in to play. The problems lie at home once again. Parents don’t give a damn about their kids and don’t teach their kids about the consequences of sex. Teens see or hear of their parents who had babies at a very young age and think that is perfectly acceptable! NO IT IS NOT!You pro-lifers need to get a grip. Let me see YOU take all the babies that these teens give birth to. Let me see YOU take on all the medical bills of these teens. I’m sorry but I am in total agreement with abortions and maybe the gene pool can be cleaned up of one more child that may face a life of poverty or child abuse for they are too stupid to give the child up for adoption if they have it.
Right on, TOM!!! LOL
Chas,
And what church are you a clergy member of?
Nathan, THAT is none of your business!!!
Whats wrong Nathan?? You think Ksgrm needs you to intervene for her???
Here’s an idea if abortion is murder shouldn’t the KBI arest people like Brenda Landwher, charge them with murder. and put them to death?
Chas keeping up with your life isn’t one of my priorities. So nanner, nanner, nanner – how juvenile. So leftwing. Yep Tom you can take out the maybe.
Well, Ksgrm, you sure stick your fat nose in my work life every chance you get!!! And there are enough on this Blog who know that, so dont try to lie your way out of it…
It was meant to be juvenile, since that is what I am talking to here..
LM nowhere on this blog will you find me say I am against birth control. I very much support this. We have put sex education in our schools, located free clinics across from some of our highschools and still there are unwanted pregnancies. What is wrong with this picture? The people having the abortions aren’t the teens. Look at the statistics. The argument on the left is always ‘those radical Christians want to tell me what to do with my body’. Far from it.
The lefts plan isn’t working. Throwing more money at it won’t work. All I have said is we need to take a fresh approach. Guys it ain’t working. We are just aborting more babies and very few are taking personal responsibility for their actions.
This is starting to feel like another sock puppet parade, so I am outta here at 6:56 p.m.
ksgrm
So much for that ‘peace’ you’ve achieved in your life.
I’m beginning to think that was just another lie.
Not impressed,
Why do you think that lobbyists are whores? I’m just wondering.
Michael what makes you think I am not at peace. My peace doesn’t come from man. Jesus said “My peace I leave with you, My peace I give Not as the world giveth…
Man can’t take what they didn’t give.
The mob mentality the left on this blog operates on is just a form of stupidity I don’t tolerate well. So if you identify yourself with that faction – well you draw your own conclusions.
Abortion is murder for hire. Hang abortionist quacks.
How sad that many think it’s better to kill those who they see as causing a burden to society rather than to let them have their life. Didn’t Hitler see things the same way? Yes, just go with the easiest solution…wipe out those who aren’t wanted. Your God will understand.
PS…you wanna bet that they never find the perpetrators who damanged Tiller’s clinic? Just like they never found out who bombed it (even though they had their suspicions). Things that make you go umm….
You asked for it Grm….
Now who has a credibility problem?The attack on the USS Cole took place on October 12, 2000. Mrs. KSGrm uses the Cole incident as proof that Bill Clinton did nothing to fight terrorism, however, Mrs. KSGrm has a bit of a problem with credibility.
“In 1992 my son left the military after 10 years. He was a technician on a nuclear sub. After Clinton mothballed 2/3 of the entire fleet he couldn’t stay around any longer. He also couldn’t take the pay scales under Clinton and had no desire to raise his family on food stamps.”
Posted by: ksgrm | May 08, 2007 at 04:08 PM
After that post, I pointed out to Mrs. KSGrm that Bill Clinton was Governor of Arkansas at that time (1992) and hardly had anything to do with the decommissioning of US Navy vessels or the pay scales.
“You know I was just talking to my son and I reported his departure date wrong. He left the Navy in 1994. I was working yesterday and blogging at the same time.”
Posted by: ksgrm | May 09, 2007 at 03:34 PM
Mrs. KSGrm’s story was a bit different back in February, however, because at that time she said that her son was stationed in the Gulf and the Navy knew that al Qaeda was behind the Cole attack.
“I’m not sure what the objection was to me saying my son was in the gulf during/after the USS Cole attack. You don’t even know him and you are attacking his credibility. He was on the USS Samuel Jackson. A nuclear sub which was redesigned to carry the Navy Seals.”
Posted by: ksgrm | February 06, 2007 at 05:01 PM
Of course, there is no US Navy submarine named after the actor Samuel L. Jackson. There was a nuclear submarine name the USS Stonewall Jackson, but it was decommissioned, and simultaneously struck from the Naval Register, 8 February 1995.
Obviously, Mrs. KSGrm’s story does not add up. I have no desire to make her look bad or duplicitous or to embarrass her, but she attacks Capn’, Mr. Davis and myself and our credibility at every turn, so turn about is just fair play.
By the way, Grm, since you are back to denying your statements and misusing my name, I am going to go back to referring to you as Hell’s Own Grandma – or HOG for short.
Loser.
Liar.
And again……..
WS do you ever deal in real facts or do you have some outdated story books you read. My son was in the gulf when the Cole was hit and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt they knew it was Al Kaeda at the time it happened. You might have had to wait for a report to come out but the military and Clinton knew it at the time it happened.
Clinton made a CHOICE to do nothing because he had dug himself a big hole and he was to busy lying to a federal grand jury.
Posted by: ksgrm | February 06, 2007 at 01:26 PM
And about the Fairy Tales, HOG?
Chas,
It may be none of my business.
I simply find it fishy that someone would have a problem sharing what faith they are when they seem to brag so much about being in the clergy and involve themselves in many religious dicussions.
Why is it that you are so willing to keep telling us that you are in the clergy, but wont tell us which one.
You will engage in religious discussions about others faith, but wont share your own.
Just a bit odd.
WS Clark,
I do believe that Ksgrm has had this conversation with you before where these things were cleared up.
Why not share those quotes?
Go ahead and look them up, Nathan.
She lied. Period. What is left to interpretation?
She wants to play hardball with me. Fine. Let’s get it on. I can play that game with anyone because I DO NOT lie to make my points. If I am wrong, if I make a mistake, on those rare occasions, I admit my mistake.
HOG has never admitted that she LIED.
Therefore, HOG is a LIAR.
WS Clark,
Do you know what the meaning of the word lie is?
There has to be an intent to decieve.
If a mistake was made, it was not a lie.
I don’t recall where, but I am pretty sure ksgrm went over all this.
Oh well. I’ll let ksgrm handle this.
By the way, Nathan, why don’t you or HOG post something that I LIED about?
Easy answer.
You can’t do it because I check out my facts before I post.
Now ask HOG that same question.
That answer is waaaaaayyyyyy too easy.
“I don’t recall where, but I am pretty sure ksgrm went over all this.”
Copy and paste where HOG admitted that she LIED, Nathan.
If her son left the Navy in the early 90’s – 92 or 94 – then she certainly could not have been mistaken about the Cole attack.
If it were a few months, then I could understand a mistake – but eight YEARS!
That constitutes a LIE!
Besides, I EMPHASIZED THE DATE several times – October, 2000.
HOG is a LIAR and she knows it.
Let’s just say, Nathan, that you dont NEED to know I am Clergy… If you choose not to believe it, then that is your CHOICE…
But, you already know what many of my social and religious views are… If you’re so damn smart, why dont you figure it out??
Chas,
I have my assumptions.
My question now is why would that be something you are unwilling to share when you are so willing to throw around that you are a member of the clergy?
Because — YOU HAVE NO NEED TO KNOW!!! ITS JUST THAT SIMPLE… SO KEEP UP WITH YOUR ATTACKS… BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT YOU NORMALLY DO ANYWAY… JUST NO NEED TO KNOW…. GET IT???
Chas,
I am asking you questions. I am not attacking you.
If we don’t need to know what group you are a clergy member of, then why is it you keep telling us you are in the clergy?
I just want to be sure Grm now knows the difference between RU486 and the morning after pill.
There will be a test.
And since you do support birth control, I do assume you’ve changed your opinion of morning after pills?
Ksgrm seems to be a pretty hate-filled lady, doesn’t she? Wouldn’t everyone here be pround to have your “grandmother” posting such hateful nonsense?
Calling WSClark, Woos. I am sure her grandchildren, if “she” really has any, are very proud of her. Remember, granny, the internet is forever.
Now, THAT Nathan, is just the kind of attack I refer to… You just cant let it go… I AM NOT GOING TO TELL YOU…
But because I wont tell you, doesnt make me any less CLERGY…
Do you ask anybody else on here what KIND of professional they are?? What COMPANY they work for??? Of courseh you dont… You are just looking for something to BADGER people with, and I will NOT play that game…
I am CLERGY… YOU are military…. Vaughn and GMC are attorneys… Cant you just leave it there??? It is NOT IMPORTANT…
I just hate it when posters challenge another poster’s faith. What is it with these Christian Conservatives that actually believe they are the only ones that have the one true God?
Geesh, get over yourselves already. Maybe God is shaking his head and saying – don’t do me any favors by saying you’re with me. How much more arrogant and self-righteous holier-than-thou can you get Nathan?
I am not challanging anyones faith.
I simply don’t understand why it is something someone is so unwilling to share. Especially when they are so quick to prop themselves up by saying they are clergy.
Chas,
I am in the Marine Corps. A SSgt. An Armorer.
Not very hard.
If I am going to interject that I am a Marine, why wouldn’t I be willing to say what it is I do or what my rank is?—–
Duh, Nathan, if you KNEW his denomination, you could easily determine his church and therefore be able to harass him.
Unlike your situation, harassing him could cause enormous problems for Chas. and that is not your right.
In other words, back off, boy.
That’s one reason, WS…
But the main reason is that Nathan just has no NEED, or RIGHT to know…
What he types in about himself is HIS choice…
You may not be challenging anybody’s faith right at the moment… BUT.. in previous days on this Blog, you HAVE challenged the faith of those who disagree with your OWN version… And there are many who come on here regularly who know that to be a FACT… So dont even ASK me to back that one up…
In other words, back off, boy.
Posted by: WSClark | August 21, 2007 at 10:32 PM——————-
Continued internet threats by DA.
*shock*
Aw, glad to see you are still alive, Nutz.
I heard that someone drove your balls into the rough and then slashed them out with a long iron for a double bogey.
I figured that must have killed you off.
My bad.
Play through, asshole.
Chas,
How can someone challenge anothers faith?
What I routinely challenge are peoples attempts at making false claims about Christianity.
I know I have no need or right to know what clergy you belong to.
I am simply curious as to why you are scared to share it?
“I have corrected any statement you might have taken exception to. I know my son was in the first gulf war and was not in the service when the Cole was attacked. Not sure of the context we were arguing about that day.
What you know about me is what I have chosen to share with this blog. I am the mother of 3 sons have been married to the same man for over 40 years, have 8 grandkids I am very proud of, am a co-owner of a small business that employes over 30 people – which we worked long and hard to establish.
I was a democrat before the party was hijacked by ultra liberals who thought raising taxes to re-distribute the income is the way to go. I live in fear of a Hillary Clinton and socialized medicine getting in office.
There you have it. Not one cuss word, a few personal attacks, and that is who I am.
There are some libs on this blog who are interesting to discuss things with. You aren’t one of them.
Posted by: ksgrm | July 10, 2007 at 02:45 PM ”
This was my second admission that my son was not in the Navy when the USS Cole was hit.
WS once again I have posted my correction of the lie you accuse me of. I still don’t know the context of what we were discussing that day but I don’t lie. When I make a mistake as pmom said I did today I will either share what I used as my source or admit my error as I did today.
The personal attacks for months by you are becoming something I have made a decision to no longer tolerate.
You all have a mob mentality when it comes to those of us on the blog that don’t agree with you. You are always right. If we prove you wrong then we are lying. If we show links then they aren’t valid links. It has gotten to the point that many interesting posters have left. You and others like you are left. I hope you enjoy talking to each other because that’s about all you have left.
Ksgrm,
I understand completely.
If I were to show you a compilation of the mean hateful things WS Clark has said about me on this blog and another it would be rather long.
There are a few here who go way beyond the petty name calling and to a whole different level with the vulgarities and hostility.
I hope you don’t let them run you off.
I remembered that post of yours too.
For some reason some people don’t seem to understand the meaning of the word lie.
WS Clark,
Will you accept what ksgrm has said or continue on your calling ksgrm a liar?
Agreed.
DA (WSC) is not to be taken seriously.
“What I routinely challenge are peoples attempts at making false claims about Christianity.” — Nathan –
That is just my point Nathan… Dont you see that what YOU might think are false claims about Christianity, might be somebody else’s belief IN Christianity??? Thus, you DO challenge the faith of others… Which you have NO RIGHT to do!!
And as for me, I am NOT SCARED to tell you my denomination… As I have said before, IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!!! NONE AT ALL!!!
So, just STOP playing your stupid little game!!! Get off it!!
Uh Grm? Did you say you were wrong? If so, I must have missed it.
I sure didnt see it, PMom!! LOL
Chas,
I have every right to challenge false assertions about Christianity.
As a matter of fact, I belive I have an obligation to do so.
So, what is the big deal about telling me your denomination?
Are you ashamed?
My mistake. I haven’t been in the birth control business for a few years and when RU486 was first marketed it was as a morning after pill
Posted by: ksgrm | August 21, 2007 at 03:00 PM
Pmom I am really disappointed in you. You have let WS drag you right down with him. As you can see at 3 this afternoon I said ‘my mistake’. Is that admission enough or would groveling at your feet be more pleasing. You people are ridiculous, full of yourselves and just downright mean. Have fun with yourselves.
OK Nathan, I am getting a bit tired of your ignorance… FIRST you say you dont challenge anybody’s faith (upthread)… NOW you say it is your obligation to challenge the faith of others (especially if it disagrees with your version of truth) So, Which One Is It???
You dont get to have it both ways… We all KNOW you challenge the faith of others ALL the time…. So, I guess your claim that you dont challenge the faith of others was just a placating lie or something….
For the ????th time, I AM NOT ASHAMED OF MY DENOMINATION…. I AM NOT SCARED TO TELL YOU MY DENOMINATION…. I AM TELLING YOU FOR THE LAST TIME, IT IS JUST PLAIN NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!!!!
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU???
Is there something about NO that you dont understand??? Is it the “N” or the “O” ???
Troll peanuts are all out for today… you all have a good nite, and may God bless, whatever you conceive God to be!!
It was an act of terrorism and should be prosecuted as such.
WSClark?
You tend to forget the 10-13 times that Clinton had close surveillance of Bin Laden and did nothing. He didn’t know anything about Alqueda?
Wow, Liberals are just revising history at top speed.
Posted by: Eier | February 06, 2007 at 01:19 PM
You made an accusation, Germie, now back it up.
Clinton had 10-13 chances to deal with bin Laden – give us a link or admit that you were wrong.
Posted by: WSClark | February 06, 2007 at 01:42 PM
This is from the day Wooss keeps referring to. As anyone can see I was given credit for someone elses post. And of course Wooss want me to admit that I was wrong because Eier posted something he didn’t agree with!!!
WS I think you have slipped a gear. Glad you got me interested in researching your name calling and threats.
Now admit you were wrong. Come on, come on you have absolutely no credibility unless you admit you lied.
All of you sheeple that follow this nutcase around need to find a different shepherd. This one is fatally flawed.
No grm, I was legitmately asking. I hadn’t SEEN that post at all.
But it was never marketed as the morning after pill. Consider how it’s taken. There is no morning after..it takes weeks before you even know if you’re pregnant.
And the morning after pill was around long before RU486. I just think you were a victim of anti-birth control propaganda.
“I think that if Pmom wants to poison her unborn child by drinking arsenic she should be allowed to do just that. “Posted by: ksgrm | August 21, 2007 at 03:30 PM
Why is it OK for her to poison her unborn with arsenic but not to get an abortion?
A heart beat can be detected 8 days after conception. Amazing! Horrifying is that a baby’s head is pulled out of the birth canal, a scalpal is stabbed into the nape of the neck and a suction tube is inserted to suck out the brain, the baby is then pulled the rest of the way out of the mother and discarded into a trash dumpster. You see . . . we have dumpster babies before birth and dumpster babies after birth. Both are cruel.
Paula, what would you do if you saw a mom put a cigarette and a beer in the hands of a 2 year old?
What does that question have to do with late term abortions?
why answer a question with a question?
I believe the point you are trying to make with your first question is that abortions prevent bad parenting. I am a mother of four and I have been a bad parent, I’ve been grouchy, maybe yelled too much, or disciplined inappropriately. However, killing the children that I have in order to keep me from making bad decisions again is assanign. You are passionate about your view point and I can appreciate that because I am passionate about mine. I hope that you, Brian, have a great rest of the day. Good bye.
No, that was not the point, but it is a valid one.My point this:Most likely, you would call the police (or something similar to stop the behavior) if you saw a 2 year old with a smoke and a drink.
If you truly think a fetus in the womb is equivocal to a born child, then you must afford it the same rights and protections.
If it is illegal to give a 2 year old a beer, it must be made illegal for a pregnant woman to drink, if you consider the unborn on the same legal plane as the born. When you are lobbying and fighting for laws like this to protect unborn babies, then your arguments will be more valid
I too wish you a good day.
Chas,Don’t let the not-quite-bright militaristic religious fanatic gun nut goad you into giving him any personal information. Might be a dangerous thing to do.
Well, it seems that chas is fond of preaching the gospel of political correctness, cultural marxism and secular humanism. Thus, I would presume he is Lutheran or one of those nutty Episcopalians.
180*