The state’s latest student achievement reports aren’t scheduled to be released until October, but preliminary reports on the Wichita school district look “really, really good,” superintendent Winston Brooks told The Eagle editorial board. He said the district’s elementary schools made “huge gains” and that high schools also improved. For example, 84 percent of high school students were proficient in writing. The district also significantly narrowed the achievement gap between white and minority students in elementary schools, Brooks said. Middle schools were “a little disappointing,” Brooks said. He attributed the difficulty in raising achievement in middle school to such factors as parents becoming less engaged, peer pressure and a lack of extracurricular activities that help connect kids to school.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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Keep up the good work USD 259 students, teachers, auxillary employees and management staff. Looking good so far … lets make sure those improvement numbers continue to improve this current school year.
Incidentally, how about a “future teachers” organization for high school students?
There are “future teachers” organizations in place in most high schools here already. More importantly, these organizations are being started in the middle schools, but not consistently due to funding concerns. I understand Marshall MS has an outstanding program for future teachers with a visionary teacher running the program. Getting kids interested in becoming the next generation of teachers needs to start early. Studies are now showing that those formative decisions are made by the time college-bound students reach the 8th grade.
Please keep in mind that these programs cost money. The teacher/sponsors should not be expected to do this extra-cuurricular work without compensation. The days of “doing it for the kids” is gone, it didn’t pay the bills then or now.
A program like “future teachers” is an investment in our society’s future
Teachers make decent money. It’s a good profession.
WHAT TEACHERS MAKEThe dinner guests were sitting around the table discussing life.One man, a CEO, decided to explain the problem with education. He argued, “What’s a kid going to learn from someone who decided his best option in life was to become a teacher?”He reminded the other dinner guests what they say about teachers: “Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach.”To stress his point he said to another guest; “You’re a teacher, Bonnie. Be honest. What do you make?”Bonnie, who had a reputation for honesty and frankness replied, “You want to know what I make? (She paused for a second, then began…)”Well, I make kids work harder than they ever thought they could.
I make a C+ feel like the Congressional Medal of Honor winner.
I make kids sit through 40 minutes of class time when their parents can’t make them sit for 5 without an I Pod, Game Cube or movie rental.You want to know what I make?” (She paused again and looked at each and every person at the table.)I make kids wonder.I make them question.I make them apologize and mean it.I make them have respect and take responsibility for their actions.I teach them to write and then I make them write. Keyboarding isn’t everything.I make them read, read, read.I make them show all their work in math. They use their God given brain, not the man-made calculator.I make my students from other countries learn everything they need to know about English while preserving their unique cultural identity.I make my classroom a place where all my students feel safe.I make my students stand, placing their hand over their heart to say the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, One Nation Under God, because we live in the United States of America.Finally, I make them understand that if they use the gifts they were given, work hard, and follow their hearts, they can succeed in life.”(Bonnie paused one last time and then continued.)”Then, when people try to judge me by what I make, with me knowing money isn’t everything, I can hold my head up high and pay no attention because they are ignorant… You want to know what I make?I MAKE A DIFFERENCE. What do you make Mr. CEO?”
“Deals with China and Mexico>” Mr. CEO sheepishly replied.
THANKS LINDAINKS55 FOR YOUR MANIFICENT STORY. PERHAPS IT WILL MOTIVATE SOME YOUNG PERSON READING THIS BLOG TO PURSUE A CAREER IN TEACHING SOMEHOW SOMEWHERE IN THIS CRAZY MIXED UP WORLD.
I’m troubled by the tenor of the superintendent’s glowing score-improvement comments, because dramatic test-score improvements occurring in not just isolated classrooms here and there, but for many or most students across the city, in several grade levels, in a very short period, generally have only one straightforward explanation.
This most plausible explanation is a concertedly crafted and broadly implemented “teaching to the test” stratagem. This has long been the staple of college entrance exam commercial prep courses, such as Kaplan, Princeton Review, and hundreds of smaller locally-operating SAT and ACT test-prep entrepreneurs.
“Teaching to the test” works because all tests have limited knowledge-content scope, and standardized assessment tests, in order to be capable of accurately measuring year-to-year and longer-term student-test-performance stability or change (improvement or deterioration) must remain content-stable year after year.
For example, substantial inter-year test-content revisions make it impossible for test administrators to judge whether this year’s 5th graders did as well, or better, or worse than their prior-years test-taking counterparts. This is why when ACT changed its test in the early 90s, and the College Board followed suit in the mid-90s and again in 2005, high school counselors, parents, students and college admissions committees were alerted that new-version test scores were not comparable to old-test scores.
Unfortunately, test-content consistency opens the door to the stratagem of test-content familiarization and memorization. It is the reason why college-entrance-exam prep companies have thrived by figuring out the tests, and selling score-boosting tips to hundreds of thousands of American 11th and 12th graders every year.
In fact, NCLB’s scheme of requiring standardized testing in all Title I-funded public schools, and demonstration of satisfactory adequate yearly progress, in order to maintain federal education funding eligibility, led the education corps to vociferously predict and protest six years ago that “teaching to the test” would invariably result.
Since the educators, who are experts in the matter, made this adamant prediction, and because teaching to the test, which includes both subject content familiarization, and test-taking “mechanics” skills-honing such as crossing out clearly wrong choices, then either “backing into” the correct answer by exhaustive (complete) elimination, i.e. “I don’t recognize choice B to be right, but I do know for sure that A, C, and D are wrong, so B must be the correct answer,” or eliminating one or two choices one recognizes to be surely wrong, then arbitrarily choosing one of two or three remaining non-eliminated choices, with an enhanced statistical probability of getting credit by luck, for some of these “I still don’t know the answer” questions; not wasting precious minutes on difficult questions, which applies particularly to math, when equal credit can be earned for easier problems that can be quickly gotten through–it’s far better to do 6 problems you can answer knowledgeably rather than never get to these problems because 1 problem bogged you down; ensuring that every question is given an answer-sheet pencil fill-in, because even 1/4 or 1/5 probability of a pure-blind-guess-based credit is better than the guaranteed 0 credit of a blank circle/oval; et al.
Sudden significant multi-grade-level test scores improvement is a telltale evidence of test-prepping. Moreover the teachers said six years ago they would do this, because it was the only way they could see to satisfy NCLB. It’s the highest-return-on-time-and-money- stratagem. Anyone who was under the gun would be foolish not to use it.
But specialized multiple-choice test-prepping doesn’t mean that kids are acquiring and retain better general reading skills, math problem-solving skills, history knowledge, etc. It’s a trick method. The Kaplan and Princeton Review students whose SAT math scores jump by 100 points and ACT prep companies’ students whose scores jump 5 points in just three weeks time don’t become algebra, geometry and trigonometry aces. Give them a couple months after training and drilling for their short-term-memory (cramming based) to fog, and change the test from multiple-choice to “free response” (create your own answer in this blank space) and their old deficiencies reassert themselves. (Which is why our flagship universities now give incoming freshmen students in-house math-assessment tests, for which there are no prep courses to “game” the results. ACT Math scores are no longer reliable course-placement measures.)
If USD 259 insists that it didn’t use test-taking training sessions, including administering practice pre-tests, well, I’d say, ask your kids if their teachers did these things.
But even if this didn’t occur, even if test-score improvement represented major teaching-improvement and student-knowledge-acquisition gains, it would still pose a major problem: it would perforce mean that USD 259 educators, facing the threat of loss of federal funding and legally enforceable demands from parents and students for the district to transfer kids to better-performing schools and to provide private (costly) after-school tutoring as mandated by NCLB, got their act together primarily to protect their own a**es. Why? Because tt would mean that they could have achieved the same results on their own initiative 5, 10, 15 years ago, and should have, for the benefit of their students and the Wichita community, but without a federal-funding cutoff threat threat, they were too apathetic, indifferent and lazy to institute reforms on their own self-initiative.
So if USD 259 officials insist that the substantially-improved test scores reflect much more academic-subject learning by students, parents should be asking, “Why did it take ex-C-student George Bush’s pet plan to get your rears in gear? Why didn’t you do this for our now -adult children when they were USD 259 students? ‘A Nation At Risk’ and hundreds of concurring studies had been out since the 1980s. The information required to guide reform was available to you in the 90s, but you buried your head in the sand and chose to ignore it.”
(I’m referring here to administrators, not classroom teachers, i.e. people who are promoted to organization-leadership positions to perform leadership duties. These duties include spearheading systematic organizational change, based on: future vision of children becoming adults; managerial and interpersonal abilities to inspire the teaching corps and parents, and convince them, and legislators, that what we need for the future is not perpetuating a rapidly-obsolescing school system that was originally brilliantly designed to service a 20th century Midwest blue-collar industrial economy, a system that cannot service a 21st century economy, because blue-collar industry that has long been Wichita’s bread and butter, is being dismantled and exported to China.)
So, even if the new test scores reflect substantial academic knowledge acquisition, which I believe to be a dubious proposition, we would still have a serious misguided-motivation problem, and misguided motivations are very difficult to overcome. “What do we do to slide by here, so we don’t lose our federal payments?” is a completely different ethos from, “How can we cultivate excellence, and help our kids to reach their fullest potentials for 21st century living, because we are fiduciary agents who must put our young charges’ long-term interests ahead of all other objectives, because it is morally and ethically our duty to do this? If we do not do this we mock ourselves when we title ourselves professionals.”
Isn’t it sad that Winston Brooks feels that 84% of high school kids proficient in writing is a GOOD thing? This means there are 16% that cannot even write???
Is Brooks interested only in testing scores or what the kids are really learning? As those 16% who are not proficient in writing and see what their lives are currently like and their future lives will be even bleaker. Yet, Brooks thinks is a success?
No wonder the US is in trouble with leadership like this.
MPS and MM, I agree. There should much more to our children’s education than “teaching to the test”.
It will be interesting to see if the better results on the Kansas test are also shown on the NAEP test.
Many states report the type of proficiency numbers that Kansas does. But on the NAEP test — a test not subject to manipulation by local school officials — those numbers often fall to 25% to 35%. And that’s in states known for “good” schools.
Why isn’t there a proficiency test for the school administrators? I would like to know exactly what their job duties are, if they are meeting their stated duties and how could the district ’streamline’ those positions?
I would venture to bet there will NEVER be a proficiency test for this tier of school wasteland.
Anyone else notice … lots of small colorful butterflies everywhere this Sunday morning. Not sure they are Monarchs. Did these butterflies just emerge from cocoons or are they migrating south towards the equator already? Could they be predicting an early arrival of winter?
A comment about NCLB testing scores … students themselves might not be taking these tests seriously because they do not affect their school grades.
And changing the subject again slightly, its my less than scientific opinion that high school/college students appear to be becoming more conservative in a life style sense, not necessarily political, than say three years ago. Anyone else notice a subtle change?
MM truer words were never spoken. When the consolidation of administration is looked at so that more money can go to those out in the trenches – that would be the instructors – then we will be making progress.
When the first course mandated for most incoming freshmen in our colleges and universities is Developing Good Study Skills then we need to re-evaluate our base cirriculum.
Maybe this is a start and we can expect that more and more high school graduates will actually be able to read and write at college level when they get there.
I graduated from high school in 1971 and there were just a few that dropped out. It was not a common occurrence as we are seeing today. And this is just the basic of education.
After high school, kids were encouraged to either go to college or a trade school. Either way, a person was trained to do something that would result in getting a job and providing for yourself and family.
In today’s schools, even the elementary schools have a principal and assistanct principal, para educators and teachers. In my elementary school days, we had 35-40 kids in one class room and we had one teacher for the entire day.
In my high school, the same thing – we had 35-40 kids in one room but we did have multiple teachers because we changed classrooms about 6 times.
But the entire atmosphere was different back then. Kids were actually taught to respect their elders, sports was not a right but a privilege and everyone spoke English.
For all the money we are throwing at education today, we should be getting many more positive results than just 84% proficiency on writing skills.
No wonder our country if falling behind in all areas but self-esteem – we all seem to be full of our ourselves and there is no limit to our arrogance.
Let the beatings continue until morale improves.
That’s what the replies of you non-educators seem to imply.
No wonder there’s a tremendous teacher shortage that is nearing epic proportions … enjoy putting subs in the classroom on a regular basis in the next 2-3 years – it’s going to happen, like it or not.
MPS,
That’s a lot of verbiage to say something unsubstantiated.
As far as “teaching to the test” is concerned, I suggest you visit http://www.ksde.org/ and look at the plethora of helpful resources available to help teachers increase student achievement – the RIGHT way.
Regarding the NAEP, Kansas is consistently in the top 10 in all 3 grade levels (4, 8, and 12) EVERY year – but since so many of you guys are “know-it-alls” you probably already knew that.
I do not fault the teachers for this education failure – I fault the politicians and the top-tier school administrators for allowing the educational system to become the mess it is in today.
A classroom teacher can only do so much and if their hands are tied by some beauracratic boob that has all the letters behind their name but no common sense, then what else is that classroom teacher to do?
We allow non-English speaking kids to attend school and expect the classroom teacher to teach them and then to pass the government’s proficiency test. Good luck on that one!
And then we have the native US kids that somehow have the notion that the world owes them a living and we are to bow down and kiss their little butts or they will go home and tell mommy and/or daddy and then the parents threaten the school with lawsuits.
Yeah, we really have an outstanding educational system here.
And let’s not even get into the sports curriculum that has taken over for the educational portion of school. My last kid graduated in 1999 and it was a well known fact that the school did not purchase textbooks because the basketball coach wanted new uniforms adn the wrestling coach wanted new floor mats.
Where are our priorities? And this was in high school – let’s not even start talking about the universities and their sports programs.
Isn’t that why the Kansas taxpayers had to come up with multi-million dollars more to repair all of the Kansas University campuses that are falling down?
And the only thing I see happening is we are taxed more to throw more money at the same problem each year. It isn’t working and we need to get a grip on the problem because our kids are already falling behind the other countries in the educational ranking of our youth.
maidmarion,
Excellent post … our country’s arrogance deserves to be humbled. And the continued deterioration of our education system will certainly take care of that.
My brother quit teaching two years ago – and his students’ test scores were OUTSTANDING … but he was tired of the apathy, lack of respect, and being held accountable for the education of a student who had NO intrinsic motivation. His statement was, “I want to be in TOTAL control over my professional career.”
As such we encourage everyone in our family to AVOID teaching as a career.
Well said MPS. Did everyone get the point of what MPS stated? The test scores, ie 84% proficient in writing, is only part of a students schooling. What about reading? What about math? Is the writing score only being presented because it is the only one which “looked” proficient? If USD 259 is in trouble with the government for dollars, then it makes sense to only present the better scores.The Wichita Business Journal recently published in the Living in Wichita section Area High School Statistics. The results were scores from 2005-06 school year. They presented reading and math scores. The Kansas state averages were 77% for reading and 58% for math. Then it compared the percent of USD 259 students that met or surpassed these averages. Results were: Wichita East–reading 68%, math 49%; Wichita Heights–reading 73%, math 53%; Wichita North–reading 50%, math 40%; Wichita Northwest–reading 83%, math 60%; Wichita South–reading 64%, math 34%; Wichita Southeast–reading 54%, math 32%; Wichita West–reading 40%, math 22%. Others in the Wichita area: Bishop Carroll–reading 92%, math 69%; Kapaun-Mt. Carmel–reading 92%, math 74%; Andover High–reading 85%, math 73%; Andover Central–reading 82%, math 71%; Campus–reading 73%, math 44%; Derby–reading 67%, math 52%; Goddard–reading 85%, math 65%; Maize–reading 77%, math 72%; Rose Hill–reading 79%, math 55%; Valley Center–reading–83%, math 56%. As can be seen from these scores, USD 259 is NOT very proficient in reading or math. Area schools and even private schools in the Wichita area do a much better job of teaching. I mean, look at Wichita West, only 40% of the student body can read at a 77% level! Also, look at Wichita West, only 22% of the student body can perform at 58% level. Possibly, the reason is the teachers. How are teachers evaluated for job performance? Does this type of low scoring result in decreased teachers raises? I think not! Teachers raises are based off what type of deal the NEA can swing. If the NEA can get a 6% increase for all teachers, then all teachers get this regardless of their proficiency to perform. Superintendent Winston Brooks said the 84% was a good score. When I went to school, that was a C. A C is usually considered average. Also, in my line of work 84% means that 16 out of 100 of my patients died or had suboptimal therapy. Would you as a patient want to be one of those 16? I think the bottom line is: USD 259 has snowballed Wichita into thinking it is doing a wonderful job. Maybe Wichita should look at the above results prior to renewing any contracts for anyone envolved with USD 259. Or, push our Congressional representatives for school vouchers.
Society has changed in many ways since many posters on this blog were in school. The education started at home in many ways more than it does now. Students were taught respect, ect, so on and so forth before they even got to school, so education was much easier. Most of the students had a basis to learn from.
Society has shifted, and the trend is now that the school should do all moral and scholistic education, since the students are not getting it at home.
Some schools are better or worse than others, but all in all, you have to remember that in America we test all students, so when you are comparing us to other countries the results are skewed. They only test their best students, the rest are put into trade schools at younger ages.
I wonder how the private and home-schooled kids did on the test?
Oh, that’s right. They don’t have to take any NCLB tests.
Because the President only wants to make PUBLIC schools “accountable” . . .
Common sense, do you think we will see an increase in the NAEP scores similar to the increase in the Wichita test scores?
There will be a measurement problem, as I believe that NAEP scores are reported for the entire state, not for smaller units.
Also, can you please tell me where I can see NAEP scores for grade 12?
NAEP scores are reported by grade level … as far as comparing NAEP scores to Wichita scores, that’s not a statistically appropriate comparison.
First of all – NAEP is a norm-referenced assessment while state assessments are criterion referenced. Big difference. Plus, NAEP scores are generated by representative samples from every state. Only a portion of Kansas 4th, 8th, and 12th graders take it – not all of them.
As for finding 12th grade NAEP scores, I don’t have a direct link – only firsthand knowledge.
dtc,
perhaps the scores are a reflection of poor financial support for education …
you non-educators just don’t get it – it’s no wonder people are leaving education in droves … our country does not deserve a good educational system.
there is NO accountability for students and parents – only teachers … what do you private industry people do when those under you aren’t cutting it? You fire them … what do educators do? They teach them …
STAY OUT OF TEACHING! READ THE POSTS IN THIS BLOG AND IT IS OBVIOUS WHY NO ONE SHOULD GO INTO TEACHING!
Common Sense,You are trying to tell me that the reason the scores are so low is because of poor financial support to the teachers? I think not. What other industry do you only work 9 months out of the year? What other industry to you have so many “inservice days” to further provide teaching to these teachers? What other industry to you have a teacher who can not be fired because of poor teaching but kept on staff because of the agreement signed with the union? Yes private industry does fire people who can not cut it. I think that is better than having a former student who can not make change at McDonalds because they were no taught math correctly. I wonder why they were not taught?
Well thank goodness there are some of us that are either foolish or giving enough to stay in teaching. We believe every student has the ability to learn and will do our best to teach them.
Dtc, I spent five years in college taking 22 hours a semester while working 25 hours a week to pay the rent. Don’t tell me that I’m lazy. I spent the entire summer preparing for this semester, I have been at school for ten hour days everyday and most weekends. Don’t speak of which you do not know.
Not to mention regular evaluations by principles and experienced teachers. If I don’t cut it I get cut.
I’m not suggesting there are not poor teachers because there are … perhaps it’s a by-product of the fact that the profession is not respected (even from within to a degree).
But we also have a system that encourages dropouts (parents can sign kids out at 16). One can’t learn if he/she isn’t in school.
There isn’t a problem with accountability, in general, just in how it’s formulated … and righth now ALL of the burden is on the teacher. What recourse does a teacher, school, or district have with an apathetic or truant student?
Suggestions anyone?
What about options to remedy the plethora of teaching vacancies – I can assure you that with 2-3 years, there will be a teacher vacancy crisis unmatched in the history of education … it’s coming; be ready.
I know several former teachers that chose to retire rather than return to the classroom. These former teachers are not even close to retirement age but they have chosen early retirement rather than going back into the classroom.
The major reason I hear from these former teachers is that there is a lack of support from the parents. school administators, those needless NCLB tests, non-English speaking students, abused and anti-social kids that have already been put through Hell and are now in foster care who need special attention. And then we have the affluent parents that think their little Johnny or Susie are just too damn cute to be anything but brilliant.
There are many former teachers who are fantastic teachers and we are losing their talents due to our educational system’s lack of intelligence to see exactly what the problems are and to address to actually fix the problems.
Throwing more money at the school administrators is not the answer!
i don’t feel the issue is throwing too much money at school administrators …
the issue is we’re not spending enough on our infrastructure (failing bridges come to mind?) in education to make school even a remotely attractive place to attend or work.
i sure as heck hope more and more teachers take early retirement – then when the crap hits the fan, perhaps the public will be a bit more understanding.
I don’t know, common sense. When I went to the Wichita Public Schools, not all that long ago, they were unairconditioned and falling apart. Now many of them have been rebuilt, remodeled, and I think almost all have air conditioning. Walk around North high. Compared to when I was in high school it is beautiful. We have invested a lot of money in the infrastructure.
Didn’t they just start putting in air conditioning within the past few years? At least I think I remember reading about that for elementary schools in Wichita.
It wasn’t that long ago. When I was in elementary school it was heat plan and lots of water bottles.
“Teachers raises are based off what type of deal the NEA can swing. If the NEA can get a 6% increase for all teachers, then all teachers get this regardless of their proficiency to perform.”
I don’t think the NEA (United Teachers of Wichita – a MERGED NEA/AFT local mind you), got the teachers a 6% raise. It was more like 4%…………..and they deserved in the double digits!
” Or, push our Congressional representatives for school vouchers.
Posted by: dtc | August 26, 2007 at 01:50 PM”
School vouchers………………….neoconese for “give more money to the rich”
the poor will never be able to benfit from this program………more CLASS WARFARE on the part of the right wing!
What other industry to you have a teacher who can not be fired because of poor teaching but kept on staff because of the agreement signed with the union?
Posted by: dtc | August 26, 2007 at 02:25 PM
This is an OUT RIGHT LIE!
The union can NOT and DOES NOT prevent poor teachers from being fired. The union does, however, ensure that the individual’s DUE PROCESS RIGHTS PER STATE LAW are followed.
Hmmmmmmmm, “due process”…..isn’t that sort of a concept backed by the United States CONSTITUTION?
Leave it to those who truly hate our way of life to have the desire to remove a fundamental right from the teachers.
Apophis is absolutely correct.
The media and general public have absolutely no clue what “tenure” means in education. And Apophis’ interpetation is the correct one – it merely requires that a teacher be given “due process” … you know why it’s that way? Because decades ago, teachers were losing their jobs WITHOUT being given “due process.” Why was education exempt from such a fundamental right? Because the government, public, and media have no respect for educators.
Kansas teacher pay: 41stStudent Performance: 7th
in comparison to the other 49 states … seems like Kansas is getting quite a bargain.
Thank you common sense………..those who are truly against public education are the ones who spin the facts.
As an educator, I want to see those who should not be in the profession gone. First though, these individuals need proper pre-service training. That is beyond the control of the school district and/or general public. When these teachers enter a school district, EVERY teacher needs to be part of a rigorous and progressive induction system that provides relevent observations and constructive professional development. USD 259 has a excellent Peer Consultant program for new teachers. Sadly, there is not enough funding to provide every new teacher with one of these consultants. Each of these new educators need a mentor, close at hand, to answer questions which arise during the course of the regular school day. These teachers also need pertinent professional development in an on-going program.
Then, and only then if these new teachers are not up to standard (I believe USD 259 utilizes the Charlotte Danielson model for new teachers), should they have their contract non-renewed for the next academic year. Yammer on about this being “union hoops” all you want. You will find, with some research, that this or similar programs are used in many successful school districts in this country.
I am SO sorry the concept of “due process” is so inconvenient for those of you who hate our community schools.
Lot’s of whining on this blog.
Thanks to “Common Sense” for posting the link to the KSDE site. I looked at the statistics from the Standard & Poors report and USD 259 appears to be doing better than average on efficiency when weighted for all factors. The same cannot be said about many small rural school districts in Kansas.
Regardless whether or not teachers are focusing too much time teaching to the standardized tests, there has to be tests with transparent results to hold the school districts accountable.
Regarding all of the bellyaching by teachers about their low pay and their long hours, the teachers need to ask themselves how many other professions have 100% job security with a guaranteed pension. Most teachers go into the class room to be loved by their students and parents and to be in an authoritarian position over children. This is the primary reason why teachers and principals are so sensitive to any criticism about their job performance (which occurs in the real world of the free enterprise system). The next time a teacher complains about needing smaller classrooms to improve student performance , I suggest that you ask them if they are also willing to expand the school year from 10 months to 11 months (with out a raise) so that the US can improve its math & science scores to stay competitive.
In the meantime I suggest that we all write our legislators and suggest that they consolidate smaller rural school districts even if it results in good old boys and good old girls being laid off. Kansas government should be about transparency and accountability and not about nepotism and cronyism.
Bill McKean
Maidmarion, you hit on the root of the issue: the educational system’s lack of intelligence to see & fix the problem. I think they created their own problems. The Dept. of Education is a big government entity that is trying to indoctrinate the children into believing that government will take care of them from birth to death. They set standards of education low so that no one’s self esteem will suffer when they don’t make the grade. They are putting the responsibility on the schools (government institutions) to teach & control the products of parents who have not been taught to do it themselves. A viscious cycle. It is PARENTS responsibility first, then it is the teachers who choose to go into that profession. We are quickly being outpaced in global competion by less developed countries because they are not afraid to stamp a report card “Do Not Pass”. It is a SHAME that anyone who is not mentally retarded is performing at less than 90 %. We are living in the US of A, where is your pride?
Apophis,
The reason there are so many educators in the profession who should NOT be boils down to the basic economic principle of “supply and demand.” Beacause teaching is such a thankless, demeaning job nowadays, fewer people are going into teaching – which is bad at a time when enrollment is increasing and more support positions are needed because of all of the SPED and ELL needs students have. The ELL thing is an entirely different issue …
Thus, the quality of what we see in education today is better than 20 years ago, but there are more marginal teachers because the profession is not attractive or respected enough to the cream of the crop coming out of a high school … plus, those students can make a LOT more $$$ doing something else. My family has been educators for four generations – but that is changing … that’s another thing – the children of educators were oftentimes candidates to enter the profession. Now even that pipeline is breaking down.
The crisis IS coming (it’s already here) … and I only see it getting worse.
Bill,
You do make some good points – however, I do disagree with the “100% job security.” That is less true than at any other point in the history of education.
Numerous studies have PROVEN that without the NEA, teacher salaries would have trailed inflation. Granted, NEA does pose other concerns, but in terms of pay – teachers deserve more.
The reason our system is set up for 9 months as opposed to the 10 or 11 you suggest is because of agriculture. We use an agrarian calendar because decades ago, farmers needed their kids at home to work in the summer months. That is less true now than before.
I do need to ask a question, though: are taxpayers willing to increase taxes proportionately so teacher pay can increase proportionately going from a 9 to an 11 month calendar?
There needs to be an increase in the accountability for parents and students. State assessments really measure two things: a student’s content knowledge and his/her character. After all – what happens to a student if his/her score is a result of apathy/guessing? Absolutely nothing … they understand how the system works.
Perhaps we need to do what Finland does (they typically rank around #1 in the world in education). Students must graduate by 16. If they don’t they are SOL and a financial burden to their family and can’t get a job … destined to a life of poverty. And the Finnish government doesn’t bail out the student because he/she was too lazy to learn.
Teachers give students the recipe and ingredients to bake a wonderful cake – is it their responsiblity to bake the cake, too? If so, what’s the use of having students test at all? Just have the teachers take the tests for them, right? Of course, that is an extreme example, but doesn’t it put things into perspective?
Actually, the median salary for teachers at 42,000/year is almost identical to the median salary for all of Kansas at 43,000/year.
So teacher salary for Kansas is not out of line for Kansas.
JB, Hmmmm….22 hours per semester for 5 years, that equals 220 hours. (Notice the easy math) Was that a Doctoral program? Or did you have to retake a bunch of classes? I guess being a teacher is harder than I thought. Yeah, I worked during school, too. Seems we all do, even the “rich”. Maybe someday when you get a real job you will see.
heh heh dtc,
Evidently someone has re-invented the definition for core curriculum at the Baccalaureate level. :)
Kansas,
Where are you getting your numbers from?
Try http://nces.ed.gov/
dtc,
your disrespect is exactly the kind of asinine behavior that deters people from going into teaching.
based on your posts, i think everyone knows what the “d” in your name stands for.
……..and attitudes like dtc are one of the many reasons the teachers need strong union representation.
I wonder how many of those posting on this topic have ever spent anytime working or volunteering in Wichita’s public school classrooms? I would recommend that if you truly care about education, and would like to become better informed or make a contribution that will actually have an impact on the lives of students (rather than simply complaining on a message board), that you participate in the educational enterprise. Go to http://wichita.usd259.net/getinvolved/index.htmto find out how you can get involved. For those of you who work as teachers and educators,the most noble of all professions, thank you for your efforts on behalf of our children.
common sense,
I believe those numbers were from the the Kansas legislature website. Darned if I can find them now though.
However, I am talking about median income distribution, not averaged income which most Website state.
With that said and to my chagrin, here are some alternative entries to show similar results.
===================
http://kansaseducation.wordpress.com/2007/05/24/are-kansas-teachers-underpaid/
According to the National Education Association, salaries for new teachers start just shy of $30,000 in Kansas. The average salary for a teacher in Kansas is $41,369.*note they give averaged salary. Median is slightly higher about 42,000.
According to the Census Bureau, the median household income in Kansas in the year 2004 was $41,664. Note that this number is for households, meaning that it includes the combined income of two wage-earners in a family. The per-person “money income” given by the bureau for the year 1999 was $20,506. A profile in the Washington Post gives the median income of males employed full-time on a year-round basis as $35,104.”==============================Those interested in comparing their salaries of all professions in Wichita can look at the URL below.
http://www.citytowninfo.com/places/kansas/wichita/work
nice sites, Kansas … one thing that is skewing the data is that 35% of Kansas teachers are within 5 years of being eligible to retire.
So, with our aging teacher population, it weights the numbers towards the high end, which explains why the median salary is higher than the mean.
Regardless, I still feel teachers deserve more. As mentioned previously, perhaps we go to an 11 month school schedule and proportionately increase staff salaries. That would be a worthy compromise, but again that would necessitate a tax increase – which is taxpayers would be highly unlikely to do.
No disagreement here common sense on retiring teachers.
My solution is to raise the lower end of the pay scale significantly. This may work well with your 11 month salary schedule.
Let’s say raise the low end of the pay scale to within twenty percent of the median, so there would be an incentive to draw new teachers and perhaps those teachers with advanced degrees or specialization.
An expensive proposition and I am somewhat clueless on how to finance this, but I think considering the budget of Kansas in entirety it is plausible.
Economists would have to do the math and I’m sure the legislative budget people in Topeka would probably need resuscitating from the numbers I offer as a suggestion.
Kansas,
I’m a bit “in the know” on employment numbers – what is coming in terms of filling vacancies will shock the average Kansan … if something isn’t done – and soon, we’ll be increasing class sizes, hiring more foreign teachers, and putting more long-term substitutes in the classroom. All at a time when schools and districts are faced with meeting the ever-increasing AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress) targets.
AYP sounds like a condition in which I had to use an anti-fungal creme in a tropical area.
But that’s a different story and off topic. :)
If you have those projected numbers of “shock” I would be interested in eyeballing those projections as I’m sure others would.
At least in the raw data form I can get a sense so a preliminary determination can be made of what five, ten and twenty year projections of teacher shortages might look like.
Or a few generalized statements would do just as well.
DTC, Came to 182 hours, last two semesters weren’t as many. (student teaching is only 12 hours) I’d send you my transcripts if you wanted. I double majored for a while, in the field that I teach.
I’ve never complained about my job or how much I get paid. I was simply trying to show you that I worked for what I got and I work hard now. I don’t understand your hatred for me or my profession.
35% of Kansas teachers are retirement eligible within the next 5 years.
25% are eligible within the next 3 years.
40% of administrators are eligible within the next 5 years.
The “double dipping” that educators could take advantage of (retire in one district and go work in another for full pay and retirement benefits) now requires districts to pay 14.75% into KPERS for an employee that is already getting retirement. That has made the practice much less enticing, which has exacerbated the teacher shortage.
This year 1100+ vacancies existed in early June, setting a new vacancy record so late in the summer.
In previous years, Kansas universities averaged preparing 2000 teachers annually, many going to other states where salaries were much more attractive. Now, Kansas universities prepare about 1300 to enter the profession. The annual decline is expected to continue.
Within the next 3-5 years, the 1100+ vacancy record is likely to be broken and approach the 15/1600 range. The quality of instruction will likely decline as a result while assessment expectations increase.
I’m sad for what is happening to students, schools, and staff in education. It’s a travesty as things worsen. I sure wish there was light at the end of the tunnel. It is getting discouraging, to say the least.
DTC, I did have a couple of friends major in psy. Maybe you should lay on their couch, and discover the inner source of your hatred for teacher.
…”When you get a real job”
Really shows your true colors, buddy.
“Most teachers go into the class room to be loved by their students and parents and to be in an authoritarian position over children. This is the primary reason why teachers and principals are so sensitive to any criticism about their job performance”
I really shake my head in wonder at statements such as this. I wonder if Bill has actually ever met a real live teacher, because I have met very few people that go into this profession for that reason.
Such ignorance… such hatred…
“Most teachers go into the class room to be loved by their students and parents and to be in an authoritarian position over children. This is the primary reason why teachers and principals are so sensitive to any criticism about their job performance”
The above is an uninformed person’s opinion … teachers are really professional martyrs – they sacrifice financially and emotionally to educate a thankless populice. I’ll be encouraging my children to do a “real job,” dtc – you know, something other than teaching … enjoy the teacher shortage … perhaps by then all of you “know it alls” will have a solution to putting long-term subs and foreigners in the classroom. That will hasten the demise of education even further.
common sense and JB……you have to understand that there are many out there that HATE community schools. These people think the “market” can solve all problems. Also, they idiots if you haven’t noticed. Fortunately, the UTW – COPE puts money and extreme effort to ensure that these type of people do NOT get elected to the BOE. They tried this last spring and they FAILED. Be sure of one thing, these anti community school groups will be back. The war is never over, only individual battles are won.
Apophis,
I know – I hesitate to ask those types to offer solutions either, because what they often come up with is neither practical or affordable without a tax increase (which they would resist).
My brother quit teaching last year and is so happy for it – he’s in total control of his output. He was a National Merit Finalist and has a B.S. and an M.S. in Mathematics. I guess he was overqualifed (since he didn’t have a “real job”). He dedicated 7 years to students; it’s people like him that we have to retain … there are a LOT of people who are certified to teach but we still have a shortage. The attitrition rate is upwards of 50%. That’s a stat we don’t hear much about … if our grad rate were like that, people would be throwing a fit – I guess they think the cart does come before the horse because if they were smart, they’d be examining why so many teachers get out because 50% quitting after 5 years is a disgrace.
In Kansas that rate is 39% after 5, so at least we’re better than the average. That’s still sad, though.
I believe you are also displaying “attitude”. You are inferring “hatred” of teachers from my posts, although I have not used any such language. I have also not resorted to insults. I have simply stated questions, facts, or opinions pertaining to the performance of educators. It appears to me that you are unwilling to accept that you are not “untouchables”, that criticism can be directed toward your chosen profession, and that to do so is not criminal. It is the same old mantra every year: The POOR teachers don’t get paid enough. The POOR students are at a disadvantage. The RICH are better off in every way. GIVE taxpayer money to us. Let’s rephrase it: From each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Now who’s stoking the class warfare fires every year? The “d” stands for dedicated, decisive, and decorum. You are unwilling to accept criticism for the job you perform. Are you willing to not criticize when you have to wait in a room for hours due to the heavy workload of the people behind the doors? Are you willing to wait in a long drive through line without criticism, not knowing how busy it in inside the pharmacy/dry cleaners/restaurant? Apophis– What is the matter with the voucher system? Rich people don’t need vouchers. Vouchers would benefit anyone. Aren’t we all about “fair” and “equal treatment’? My tax money would be used to my advantage. I could use the voucher to send my children to private school and not just the government schools. The fear is that the government school teachers could be without a job, and the union without members. After all, the union represents teachers, and does not work on behalf of students.
“Maybe someday when you get a real job you will see. ”
Posted by : dtc
Yes, sir, that’s what I call decorum.
Please give me constructive critisism, I am always trying to improve my craft. I never said I’m not paid enough. You make assumption based on false logic to attack people you know nothing about.
Yes, that may be desisive, but certainly lacking in decorum.
JB–I have been giving constructive criticism in all my postings. You are not understanding these postings. In one of your first postings, you commented about how you took 22 hours per semester and worked 25 hours per week. I perceived that as commenting about what you are paid. Perhaps it was referring to your dedication. In one of my other postings, I commented about your lack of understanding the voucher system. This would be a better system for all. There, that is decisive and shows decorum. Could you offer reasons, not false logic, as to why you would not endorse giving parents/students power to choose their educational institution?
Vouchers? So parents can homeschool their own kids and pocket the money?
What kind of accountability system do you propose for that dtc?
dtc………….NO vouchers, ever…..this anti-community school scheme will solve no problems in education.
Common Sense……..I AM an educator and very aware of our critics. They will always spew rhetoric and constantly come at us. The RW whackos here are just that, ALL talk.
In reality, the teachers of Wichita are highly organized and will be as politically active as neccessary to ensure that pro-community school candidates are elected to the state legislature and local BOE. It is a tireless effort that few understand or appreciate.
No Surrender, No Retreat!
Apophis, as much as I admire your activism, let us not forget that education is meant to be about students.
Teachers are an integral part, they are part of the solution, not the philosophical end to this argument.
A little less preaching about organization of teachers would be appreciated and more concentration on educating students is needed.
Education of our youth is the goal after all isn’t it?
so, dtc, do you feel that a child in his/her second year in the U.S. should be able to pass the state math and reading test?
and if the student doesn’t pass, it’s the teacher’s fault, right?
should a teacher be held accountable for the performance of a child who is here illegally?
i’m anxiously awaiting your profound responses.
And what is the problem with pocketing the money? Whose money is it anyway? Right now I am supporting the current system by paying property taxes and also sending my children to private schools. Where is the accountability of my money in that system? Apophis, how is the voucher system anti-community school? I pose the same question to you: Why are you against giving the power to students and parents to choose the best system for themselves?
Kansas,
That’s a fair request – I think it’s disheartening, however, to have people beat down teachers all the time and blame them for all that’s wrong with education.
The very fabric of our society has changed since 20 years ago. The work ethic of our students is different. They have access to more technology but also contend with more distractions. More students come to us less prepared, poorer, and from more single parent households.
Instruction does make a tremendous difference, yet one other factor (poverty) is shown to have a significant impact as well. We have done very little to combat that in our society, which is a shame considering how wealthy we are as a country. Students coming to the classroom with less “cultural capital” are at a distinct disadvantage before even starting KG. Who’s fault is that?
“…and if the student doesn’t pass, it’s the teacher’s fault, right?”
In my day it was always the students fault. heh
In fact I can remember several classmates who revisited the same classrooms and same teachers a couple of times until they got it right.
heh heh
NCLB is the accountability piece that is already in place. Homeschooled students are exempt from that.
“whose money is it anyway”? … so, a parent living on food stamps is likely to be qualified to teach their child all the core content areas better than a highly qualified teacher?
interesting …
dtc,
and we all know how “accountable” people on food stamps and welfare are with money … that’s usually why they are in that predicament in the first place.
Chances are that they’d pocket the money with vouchers and do very little in the way of educating their child. Is that money well spent? Who will oversee the abuses (which will be numerous)?
DTC, you are obviously as confused as you are arrogant and angry. I haven’t commented on vouchers on this entire post, so if you directed your comment at me you were misdirecting it. Assuming that my arguments are saying I should be paid more is an example of you rushing to conclusions. Another example of decisive decorum.
My main reason for not supporting vouchers is the following:
You start giving federal money to private schools through vouchers. The government then ends up supporting a private school. The government then decides that sense it is funding the private schools (however indirectly) it needs to start holding these private schools accountable. So it starts requiring certain testing, accredidation requirments. Soon the government decides that if it is giving it’s money then it should also do as much as it can to protect it’s investment and starts demanding curriculum. Then it decides since hey, where already funding private schools indirectly we might as well just give them the money directly.
The end result? Another private school. Then all the same problems you have at the public school have just migrated to a new building. Hardly a real solution for long term improvment.
That is why vouchers are idiotic to me. It does nothing to actually solve the problem. It just moves the problem to a new loction.
Kansas,
Back then, though, the quality of education was much better … now it is sometimes a crapshoot.
That’s because of the “supply and demand” in education … there is a diminished supply because of the low demand (in terms of wages). Wages will have to significantly increase now because of all of the political rhetoric in education.
I don’t regret being an educator – I just regret it’s decline and resent the implication that it is entirely the fault of educators when in reality it’s blame that should be shared by a LOT of various groups.
common sense,
I think part of the problem is perspective.
That is, some teacher in let’s say Parsons, Kansas may have a different view simply because the demographics of Parsons is much different than Wichita.
“Cultural Capital” is a term I haven’t heard before, but it describes accurately the condition I think you are describing.
Yes, I can see where increased immigration and global relocation of different cultures to Wichita and other metropolitan cities could be a huge disadvantage to the student and the teacher.
I really didn’t have any built in work ethic when I attended school. A lot of that was taught to me in schools during my grammar school years as organizational skills.
Those skills that classify colors, objects, things, actions and of course events in our life.
Making basic assumptions about how to organize doesn’t come naturally to all kids. At least it never did to me as I had to be coached into organizing before I could develop a sufficient ethic to even consider working towards some sort of goal.
With that said, I do know what you are talking about. That is, if outside social or family pressures nip the Maslow pyramid of needs low on the scale, then learning becomes unimportant to the student as they will have an affinity to do the pleasurable rather than the responsible.
I don’t know of anyone that has a solution for that other than re-organizing our entire social structure.
Perhaps a classification system of students on a scale which would be culturally biased or should I say used as a culturally different identification scale (some goat to rope huh?).
We all know that would never fly.
It’s a problem, I have no answers for that particular problem.
Common Sense–The government and local schools have set up your own system. If a student is in the US for a second year and can not pass a math or reading test at a level for their age, then they should be put back to their best level. No, it is not the teachers fault, but it is not the students either. Children who are here illegally should be deported. What would be the response to these questions were they posed to someone in another country? (Finland, Mexico, South Africa?) I await your responses.
Correction to the above:”The end result: another public school.” sheesh, I can not type!
JB,
one other simple reason avoiding vouchers, especially those used for a private school education: separation of church and state.
can federal funds be used to educate a child at a Christian school?
I agree, common sense,It just opens up more problems then it would actually solve.
dtc,
you don’t get it, though – NCLB REQUIRES that those “newcomers” to the U.S. be “at grade level” by their second year in the country … so, if a student comes here as a 6th grader (and doesn’t speak any English), as a 7th grader that student MUST pass the same state assessments his/her peers take … AND the school and district is held accountable for that score … is that fair?
Finland doesn’t have the immigration issue we do here – Mexico is sending us their poor, so their populice’s intelligence improves by virtue of this subtraction, and South Africe just benefited from Oprah’s private school building, which she built THERE instead of here because of STUDENT APATHY.
and, I agree – illegals should be deported.
dtc………..why do you HATE community schools and why do you want tax dollars to be diverted to the private sector. THAT is the ultimate question. Put the RW spin aside and answer the question outright.
Actually, vouchers could possibly be a solution to the “Cultural Capital” problem common sense addressed.
Imagine if you will (insert twilight zone music) an event where the Federal and Kansas governmental bodies legislate an action where students identified as culturally challenged must attend transition schools.
Now also imagine that traditional schools such as those in our own 259 district could qualify for those vouchers in order to hire the teachers qualified to teach those students and also order books/equipment.
I know it’s a pipe dream, but it would be an enterprise worth looking into if one thinks it could be successful.
There would have to be some legal fence jumping done to include the use of vouchers in the public arena, but transfer of payment is nothing new for the U.S. or Kansas government. I do believe they call it contracting.
I admit I am a little confused Kansas, intrigued, but confused.
The parents, through their vouchers, would be hiring the teachers that their student needs?
I don’t HATE the community schools. You are reading HATE into my questioning why are our government schools doing so poorly? Go back and look at the numbers I posted. Just look at the two private examples, Bishop Carroll and Kapaun-Mt. Carmel. Their scores are far above anything USD 259 or the other government schools in the area produce. Gee, I wonder what the scores would look like at Collegiate or The Independent School? OK, I answered your questions, now put away your liberal thinking and answer mine? Why are you so against giving students and parents to choose what is right for their children?
dtc, answer my line of questions, sir.
How would the private schools not just end up becoming public schools in the long run. I just don’t see any way around it.
The culture capital issue would have to be addressed with more early childhood programs (for 3 and 4 y.o. kids) and all day KG … right now the state only funds 1/2 KG with school districts (and local taxpayers) left to pick up the difference.
Says a lot about how much of a “priority” all-day KG is, doesn’t it? Then one must consider the “space” issue that all-day KG presents – twice the space needed and twice the staff. Lots of additional costs associated with that.
I personally would like to see more year round schools.
I’d also like to see more accountability for truant students (the state’s truancy law and enforcement is a joke).
Judges should require parents of absent students to go to class with the student if the child is excessively absent.
Texas fines parents $500 for excessive absences by a child. Can everyone pay that? Of course not, but it certainly deters most people since they know BEFOREHAND what the consequences are. That seems fair to me.
there’s a really GOOD reason why the two schools you mention outperform USD 259 and most other area school districts …
it has LESS to do with the quality of instruction (although the school’s demographics make it an attractive place to teach) … and MORE to do with the quality of the students being educated.
You beat me to it on that last post, common sense. I was just about to say the same thing.
dtc….you DO hate community schools, derisively labeling them “government schools”. That is the first clue that you HATE the public service system.
Spin it all you want, vouchers are just another method to move the tax burden from the well-to-do to the middle and lower socio-economic classes.
Your HATE of the current system is obvious
JB–That is where the competition comes in. A school, be it government or private, has a better set of scores than another, then it would be my choice to send my child to where I want him to go. I could use my voucher at that school. The money follows the child not the child following the money. Now, please answer my question: Why are you so afraid of the voucher system?
Apophis, you write as though being opposed to government schools is a bad thing!
Discriminating people see through the fog and quickly come to the reasoned conclusion that public schools are the greatest travesty that government has foisted upon us and our children.
I explained it in detail above, dtc, or did you not take the time to read my post?
I am not afraid of vouchers, I am not afraid of school choice. I have friends who work at private schools. I think that public schools should be held up to standards (although I don’t think testing is the end all for this)
I just think that within several years the public and private schools would be exactly the same with vouchers. The problem students would just migrate to another school. Let me agree with “common sense.” The curriculum at private schools, and the teachers, aren’t usually any different than public schools.
In debate terms, vouchers simply has no solvency. That’s why I am opposed to them.
Being opposed to our CHILDREN’S COMMUNITY SCHOOLS is wrong. You obviously want our children to travel many hours to get to a private, political indoctrination “school” of your choice.
SHAME ON YOU!
Apophis–you sound so angry yourself. I answered your questions previously and you still can not answer mine. Why? Probably because you know I am right. You are afraid of the voucher system. It has nothing to do with socio-economic levels, but better levels of teaching. The voucher system could bring in competition to education. Heaven forbid! Also, they are government schols. Who runs them? Maybe administrators elected by the uneducated masses, but these administrators have to answere to legislatures and governments.
DTC, the teachers come from the same colleges. They learn the same methods. They are no different than public school teachers.
You make statements, rush to conclusions about subjects about which you seem to have little real knowledge. You judge people before you know them, and assume to know the motivations behind the things they write.
Is this the kind of thought process you are promoting?
dtc…….You have proposed NO legitimate questions for me to answer.
Am I angy?…………….No………..I am disgusted with the anti-community school cult of which you belong.
Again, vouchers are nothing but CLASS WARFARE,nothing more or less.
JB……..the type of “people” dtc represents HATE anything that “promotes the common welfare” because they think they might have to pay for it. The truth is that we ALL pay for the “common welfare”.
Apophis–Shame on yourself. You are so blind to change it is not funny. You are so afraid that one day your valued job will be gone because our government schools are doing such a poor job of teaching and parents have moved their children to a better district or private institution. Besides look at what you say: my children do not ride a bus for hours to go to a government school because the government makes me bus them accross town. They ride 10 minutes to the private school I choose to send them to because of the higher test scores. There is nothing political about the school, either. Good try! Didn’t work.
dtc,
WHO is attending the private schools has a LOT more to do with higher test scores than who is doing the TEACHING.
Want competition? Allowing more students in poverty to attend those schools will drag DOWN test scores – be careful what you are asking for.
Apophis–Sorry for your not understanding a legitimate question. It is obvious you can not answer the question.
dtc,
do you support this school? http://www.denverpost.com/nationworld/ci_6726278
“There is nothing political about the school, either.”
Nice try dtc!
Hey butt f***, I’m not dependent on my “government job”. I have worked in education and in the industrial sector. You have NO idea what you are pontificating about. What I do know is that assholes like you HATE our children’s community schools. YOU want public tax dollars diverted to the private sector. THAT is just just wrong. SPIN all the crap you want about vouchers, private schools, etc……….It really doesnt, matter.
The truth of the amtter is that YOU HATE OUR CHILDREN’S COMMUNITY SCHOOLS!
Once again, vouchers doesn’t solve anything. Just moves the problem to another school.
Please Mr. DTC, tell me how the private school teachers are any different. Because I know many of them, I know their educational background and it’s not any different from mine.I’ve studied the curriculum at privte schools. Almost indistinguishable, except for the religious aspects.
Moving the problem students there will only bring down you precious test scores.
common sense……….you know the answer to THAT question before you even ask it.
The RW racism will shine through right about now!
dtc…….I’m off to bed……my “union job” only requires me to be there from 7:50-3:20……………I’ll be there at 6:15 and leave around 5:30. That’s a nice 8 hour day isn’t it? Many teachers spend more time than I do at our schools.
again, SPIN to your delight, it doesn’t change reality!
oh…………all you rwingers who HATE our children’s community schools……….BUGGER OFF!
Nice language Apophis, I hope you don’t use that at our schools or on the job.
Anyway I guess my contract teacher suggestion utilizing Public School buildings to bring culturally challenged children up to speed wasn’t considered.
Looks like I’m done here. night all.
I recall asking for further clarifacation, Kansas, although I think I am understanding a little more.
Why doesn’t the school just higher the needed teacher, instead of putting a middle man in the process?
Stick it in your conservative, anal retentive a** Kansas/repuke!
The attitude that Apophis displays is a powerful advertisement for private schools and the termination of the government schools.
I hope common sense doesn’t work with Apophis, I would want common sense to get filth falling from that mouth onto his clothes.
er wouldn’t want
Yes, very logical, anonymous. Base your opinion of all public schools on some poster on the Weblog.
Very, very logical.
Can’t say I’m a big fan of the language either, apophis. It isn’t exactly helping to advance your case…
“Logical” JB, I don’t base my opinion only on the evidence of Apophis, but he sure provides a good example.
Are you a public school administrator or teacher? I ask because that’s typical of the type of “logical thinking expected from such a source.
Go ahead and attack me for the profession that I choose and the fact that I was hired by a public school. I got into education because I deeply care about my subject matter and do whatever I can to teach it to the best of my ability. It care deeply about the students that I teach and want to give them the tools they need to succeed in life. I was hired by a public school, and was happy to get the position.
You want to attack me for that?
Apophis–looks like when the going gets tough, the weak go to bed. Also, good language. Just shows me I was right, you can not answer the question. You are AFRAID of what education will become if enough of us RWers throw enough questions at liberals like yourself. Go ahead. Go to bed. There will probably be a tough question for you to answer tomorrow, you know: 2 + 2 type questions. Try to answer that question better than you answered mine.
Still awaiting your answer, dtc, but very proud of you for attacking the easiest target and avoiding the real challenges to your program. You show your skill when you take the cheap shot.
I think Apophis said at one time he was a science teacher. He never said what discipline.
Too bad, I wanted to grill him. :)
JB–sorry, I got caught up in Apophis and his bad language and attitude. I am not sure I would want him for a teacher.I agree the teachers go to similar schools and receive similar educations. The real difference is probably the numbers of students/teacher. Only makes sense. Also, private schools do not have to accept bad students. Therefore, the problem students would not be accepted and would not necessarily pull down the scores.
Alas, what a silly forum this is. Everyone lashes out and screams at each other, if you hear an argument you don’t like, you can just ignore it. You don’t have to look anyone in the face and defend yourself.
It just devolves into screaming, cussing and personal insults.
This is so dumb, I think I am feeling stupid for even posting here… My mistake to think that a civil conversation could happen over a medium like this.
dtc,
if “problem students would not be accepted,” then vouchers would not work … because they would be considered “federal funds,” equal access would apply and private schools would have to open their doors to everyone.
would you still want vouchers then?
Okay, dtc, I appreciate your civil response.
Here is my response. If the public schools don’t accept the ones they want, and they are bringing down public school scores then the public schools are automatically at a disadvantage. The competition is not fair because the public schools are required to deal with all students, which is ofcourse the right thing to do.
Who said that the vouchers had to provide equal access? The vouchers are to be used where the child goes to school, be it government or private. If the child can not get into a private school for one reason or another, then the voucher goes with him to a government school. If he can get into a private school, then the voucher goes with him there. Ultimately, vouchers are my money. My tax dollars, to be used how I want them to be used. A similar example is food stamps. It is government tax dollars being used for food. I do not tell the individual using these food stamps where to shop. They can go to Wal-mart, Target, Dillons, etc. wherever they want to go. Why not vouchers for education be used the same way?
Because I do think that there should be equal access, dtc, and I am assuming the supreme court would probably err on the side of equal access. If vouchers followed your plan they would never be deemed constitutional.
Again, I come back with what I said earlier. This is the system that has been set up as “Gold” by the government educators. If is does not work, then it needs to be changed. I don’t know what the best system is. I know I don’t want my children going to government schools because they don’t seem to produce the same education as private schools.
Again, I come back with what I said earlier. This is the system that has been set up as “Gold” by the government educators. If is does not work, then it needs to be changed. I don’t know what the best system is. I know I don’t want my children going to government schools because they don’t seem to produce the same education as private schools.
Because I do think that there should be equal access, dtc, and I am assuming the supreme court would probably err on the side of equal access. If vouchers followed your plan they would never be deemed constitutional.
dtc,
sorry but vouchers wouldn’t work that way – you can’t “have your cake and eat it, too.”
it’s called “compromise.” want vouchers? sure, no problem – just keep in mind that it’s FEDERAL money – and equal access laws WOULD apply, like it or not.
now, again, i ask the question … would you want vouchers? … it’s an easy question to answer because you can’t change the law to make it fit what you want … equal access, equal acces, equal access … otherwise, no vouchers.
a “yes” or “no” will suffice.
It wouldn’t any longer be a matter of “school choice.” The exceptional students would go to the ‘private schools’ while the public schools would further be destroyed. This would not be competition.
sorry, dtc, but you are either uninformed or misinformed … you seem to think private schools provide a “better education.”
check out the research – it will show that it’s WHO attends not who does the teaching that matters.
students who attend private schools tend to be those who are “culturally affluent” and a child’s socioeconomic status has significant influence on their capacity to learn.
take a few weeks and do some due diligence … it will confirm what i have posted.
exactly, JB … what dtc is suggesting would only exacerbate the chasm between the “haves” and “have nots.”
i guess it’s okay as long as your children are in the “haves” category, right, dtc?
I can hear the accuasation of socialism coming from a mile away…
It may confirm what you are saying, but does that mean it has to stay that way? Just because that is the way it has been done for x number of years does not make it the best system. Possibly, if the “have nots” had a better choice, through some type of vouchere system, they would send their child to a private school. It sounds like you are teaching down to these students. I find that appalling. Why not challenge the system to provide a better way. My child is going to a private school because I choose to send him there, not because I have the affluence to do it. I don’t. I work extra so he can do this. Why can’t the next person do the same? Affluent or not? You want the status quo. I want better. I don’t see it in government schools. Sorry!
dtc,
you have contradicted yourself … you said that “private schools do not have to accept bad students” but in your last post you said that “if the “have nots” had a better choice, through some type of vouchere system, they would send their child to a private school.” … so, which is it?
as for the “equal access” stuff – your comparison with food stamps was great except for one thing – you said they could shop ANYWHERE … that’s the way vouchers would have to work in education … stores don’t deny shoppers if they don’t meet a certain “profile” which is what you suggest with the first quote I included in this post.
make up your mind … actually I know what the MO of voucher supporters is … tell everyone it is about “competition” and “school choice” but when it all comes down to it, private schools retain the right to “refuse service to anyone.”
totally hypocritical.
i’m off to bed – no sense staying up to argue when i know i’m right.
I want better, so I go to school everyday and give my students the best education I possibly can.
Consider this: You admitted that the teaching is equal between the schools, and the one advantage between public and private is class size. You do realize that this advantage would be gone once all the voucher students show up…
Anyhow, enough of this for this week.
Goodnight.
I want better, so I go to school everyday and give my students the best education I possibly can.
Consider this: You admitted that the teaching is equal between the schools, and the one advantage between public and private is class size. You do realize that this advantage would be gone once all the voucher students show up…
Anyhow, enough of this for this week.
Goodnight.
So “have nots” are bad students? I thought “have nots” meant not having the funds to attend a private school. The voucher system would make it possible to attend a private school if they meat the qualifications. Bad Students to me means a trouble maker, which no school would want. Whats the matter with retaining the right to refuse? It puts a little competition into the mix. Whats the matter with school choice? It puts a little competition into the mix. I still state, just because the system has been in place for x number of years does not make it the best system. Challenge the system. Come up with something better. This one does not work. Again, look back at the scores I posted way at the beginning. It is not working!
common sense,
I don’t want to get into a fight. So please take the following in the spirit it is intended, as enlightening information for your future reference, and for the edification of WEBlog readers. You’ve been fed false proclamations by less-than-statistically-competent education administrators who are trying to make Kansas schools appear to be doing better than they are. I’m not telling you to confront them when they spew b***s***, but at least you won’t be misled, and hopefully you won’t become part of the bs-spewing problem.
You said,
“Regarding the NAEP, Kansas is consistently in the top 10 in all 3 grade levels (4, 8, and 12) EVERY year.”
Fact: According to the National Center for Education Statistics’ latest open-source-published data, Kansas students average scores “ranked” as follows in 4th and 8th grade:
Math G4 2005 avg. 246 on a 0-500 scale”Rank” #1-3 (tied for the highest average with MN and NH)
Math G8 2005 avg. 284 on a 0-500 scale”Rank” #9-13 (tied with IA, NE, NJ, VA)
Reading G4 2005 avg. 220 on a 0-500 scale#24-25 (tied with KY)
Reading G8 2005 avg. 267 on a 0-500 scale”Rank” #11-13 (tied with IA, NE, PA)
Writing G4 2002 (latest year analyzed) avg. 149 on a 0-300 scale”Rank” #23-25 (tied with MT, OR)
Writing G8 2002 avg. 155 on a 0-300 scale”Rank” #11-14 (tied with WA, OR, VA)
Kansas’s NAEP Science Test scores are not reported, and 2006 12th grade Economics Test data for states are not available yet.
So, Kansas scored what on its face appears to be a “best in the nation “ranking” in Grade 4 Math in the most recent year of published state-by-state data, and a top-9-to-13 states “ranking” in Grade 8 Math.
For grade 12 performance (Economics), NO DATA HAVE BEEN RELEASED on a state-by-state basis for comparison.
Therefore, one third (33%) of Kansas’s scores being among the highest 10 in the country, with two-thirds (67%) being below the highest 10, with no state-by-state 12th grade Economics Test data do not justify the statement,
“Kansas is consistently in the top 10 in all 3 grade levels (4, 8, and 12) EVERY year.”
I think you appreciate that conclusion as correct. But somebody passed on a Kansas-feel-good inflationary rumor, and you didn’t have time to look at the real numbers to see if this rumor was true or false.
Now, many people would be interested in the question, What percentage of students achieved “proficiency” performance on NAEP? Here are the data and Kansas’s state “ranks”:
Math G4 2005 47%, #1-3 (tied IA and MA)Math G8 2005 34%, #11-13 (tied IA, ID)
Reading G4 2005 32%, #21-23 (tied MD, MI)Reading G8 2005 35%, #11-13 (tied SD, WI)
Writing G4 2002 21%, #31Writing G8 2002 32%, #13-14 (tied VA)
Here, in only 1 test of 6 (16%) did Kansas’s performance reach top-10 states, and NONE of these states did well. In G4 Math, which was Kansas’s best test result, 53% of students scored “basic” or below. In almost all the other tests roughly 2 out of every 3 Kansas students scored “basic” or below.
I don’t know if you understand NAEP, but “basic” is NOT GOOD. For example, on the 0-500 and 0-300 scales, Kansas students, on average, only answered about ONE-HALF the questions right.
—-
I’ve used quotation marks for “rank”. Why? Because you cannot rank states against each other. This is a flagrant misuse of statistics. You personally didn’t use the word “rank”, but when you said “top ten” that’s a ranking term.
Why cannot states be ranked against each other in test-score averages? Because NAEP scores, like ACT and SAT scores correlate with RACES and FAMILY INCOMES, and almost certainly as well, social dynamics such as both parents being married to each other, versus single parents and step-parenting couples.
So, let’s examine racial effects on states’ aggregated-race statewide NAEP scores. Let’s take a state with close-to-Kansas scores: Delaware’s 8th grade math students’ NAEP performance vs. Kansas 8th grade students’.
Aggregate avg. score Kansas Delaware284 284
Kansas 8th graders and Delaware’s 8th graders both seem to TIE each other on the NAEP Math test.
But these RACIALLY DISAGGREGATED data paint an entirely different picture:
Grade 8 NAEP Math averages
Kansas Delaware
White 289 291Black 256 264Hispanic 266 268
Anyone can see, that for any race, Delaware’s 8th graders didn’t equal Kansas;s 8th graders’ performance, as the aggregated data would suggest, Delaware 8th graders’ performance BEAT Kansans’ performance in disaggregated racial categories.
Why the seeming discrepancy?
Because in both Kansas and Delaware, blacks and Hispanics “drag down” the state aggregate averages. But in Kansas, only 17% of 8th grade NAEP Math test takers are black and Hispanic, while in Delaware, MORE THAN TWICE AS MANY, 44% ARE.
This is why statewide-average versus statewide average statistical comparisons are invalid per se.
Consider North Carolina’s 4th grade NAEP math average of 241 versus Kansas’s 247.
But if your child is is white, at the North Carolina average, 250, he or she is doing slightly better than the Kansas average student, 249. If he or she is Hispanic-average, his or her 234 score is equal to that of Kansas Hispanics.
No responsible educator can say, “Kansas scored a #1 ranking in the 4th grade NAEP math test, and our 6 point advantage over North Carolina proves our math program is clearly superior to NC’s #13 highest average math program by 6 out of 500 points.” North Carolina’s aggregate average score is lower than Kansas’s aggregate average, because in North Carolina, 27% of NAEP Math 4th grade test takers are black, vs, 8% in Kansas.
I’m also concerned that indifference, lethargy, and even ignorance and petty jealousy, are preventing USD 259 from developing a large-portfolio (20+ course) AP program. AP and East High’s IB program are not the same.
IB is a very good college preparatory program, but you have to understand its mission, premises and limits. The IB diploma was originally thoughtfully created to provide a French-language based education to the children of many nations’ diplomats in Geneva, Switzerland (1924). After WWII, the IB diploma / international school model, which was entirely private,not public, spread across the globe to capital/embassy cities and major international trade centers.
Depending on locale after WWII instruction was provided in either French or English. Most of the students did not speak these languages at home, so they learned academic subjects in a second language. In order for the curriculum to be “accessible” (digestible) to these students, it was watered down relative to domestic English and French schools, and other Eurropean nations’ domestic schools. Education ministries in Switzerland, France, U.K. and other nations never adopted IB for their own citizen-serving schools, because IB was slower-paced and less-information-conveying than their regular schools’ university-preparatory curricula.
Nevertheless IB nicely met basic European university admissions requirements, enabling the children of European diplomatic staff to receive consistent education as their parents were periodically assigned to new embassies in various countries, without having to be sent to live with grandpa and grandma or to boarding schools back home. International schools also enabled the children of developing nations’ growing administrative and professional corps in developing nations to attend European and American universities.
Because IB worked well for children of many nations and cultures, including African, an idea was born in the late 1960’s to try using it to help African-American children who were not being prepared for college in inner-city ghetto schools.
Unfortunately, results of this experiment haven’t been as hoped for. African children of educated professionals, despite learning courses in a second language, had the socio-cultural advantages of other nations’ educated professionals. Their homes had books, many of their parents were local university professors and administrators or managed government departments and went to formal state dinners, the kids attended the private international schools exclusively with the children of other professionals, and realized that they had a privilege and an obligation to study hard, etc. This was utterly different from setting up an IB school in an American ghetto and offering a college-preparatory education to students to whom college attendance was no less a foreign a concept than moving to Barrow Alaska and joining the Inuits to harvest whale and salmon meat to live on.
IB public schools have also spread to Hispanic-predominant urban and agrarian zones. Again, no miracle results.
What HAS notably happened is that public IB programs have been used to magnetically attract high-performing white and Asian students in order to quell segregation complaints, by saying to disadvantaged minority students, “Look, we’re giving you the best college preparatory education we are giving our middle-class white and Asian students.”
What’s the hitch? Well, in most of these schools, white and Asian students disproportionately outperform their black/Hispanic classmates in A. earning IB diplomas, which aren’t automatically granted for attendance, but require projects completion and qualifying final exam scores, and B. white and Asian students disproportionately completing, at higher rates than disadvantaged-minority students, Higher Level (college-unit-earning) courses, rather than Standard Level (basic college preparatory) courses.
As importantly, if not more so, a city like Wichita needs to promote the development of self-initiative, including pre-university education, university education and research, and commercial enterprises that grow from the education-system developments.
IB is basically a pay-the-private-supplier “turnkey” product. IB (formerly known as the International Baccalaureate Organisation) a private corporation, sells a package including Euro-designed curriculum, intensive teacher training, managerial oversight from its IB North America office in New York, tests designed, printed and graded in Bath, England, and post-hoc revision of classroom teachers’ issued grades, it such grades are at variance with the test scores. IB wants course grades to match test scores, and if there is variance, IB officials retroactively change the grades to correspond to IB’s test scores. In essence USD 259 makes IB the teachers’ “boss”.
Of note, for public-education proponents, IB is a “global” private corporation. It’s headquarters are in Switzerland, Its president is French, Its historic-first American Director General, equivalent to a Board of Directors Chairman, is an ex-executive Procter & Gamble, and Syngenta, a global ag-biotech corporation. The East High IB program is not a “we built this ourselves” local grassroots program, it is a commercial-vendor-supplied charter school. The USD 259 BOE can cancel the IB program contract, but so long as it renews it, the Switzerland-headquartered private corporation makes and enforces all the operating rules.
Basically, it is a form of a voucher program: Parents push their children to apply to the private corporation’s program. It doesn’t accept all applicants, but selectively accepts only high-performing white and Asian students, and better-performing black and Hispanic students. Students per-capita state payments are given to the IB operators in New York (regional headquarters) and Geneva.
To public educators who say, “We can’t have vouchers and private schools cherry-picking good students,” it’s time for you to wake up and get real: Wichita already has this, and has had this for a quarter century..
Is a slow-paced publicly-funded, privately operated college-preparatory contractor program the best thing for Wichita? I would argue, no it isn’t. Advanced Placement, AP, requires communities to initiate their own programs. The College Board provides helpful curricular subject-matter guidance, if requested, and lists of recommended (not mandatory) textbooks. There are huge numbers of self-initiated workshop groups that provide teacher-information classes and useful tips, aftermarket curriculum guides and student AP-test study manuals. AP is create-it-yourself, but with as much support as you desire. If you want, you can hire local college instructors to teach first-year college courses on your campus, or send your students to the colleges, and put “AP calculus” on their transcripts.
AP is managed by the College Board, whose members include KU and KSU. It is designed, with purpose, to mesh with the curricula of all mainline American universities and colleges. IB has zero affiliation with American universities and colleges. When our National Research Council convened a blue-ribbon committee that studied AP and IB Higher Level math and science curricula, and found deficiencies relating to too-wide breadth and not enough deep-thinking depth, the College Board immediately responded to revise its course guidelines. IB said, “We have an international constituency to satisfy, our job is not to develop a curriculum that satisfies America’s universities. We aren’t going to make changes to please Americans.”
AP is terrific for gifted students, because they can start taking university-credit-earning courses as early as 9th grade. IB in contrast, could do this, but instead chooses a lockstep start in 11th, and complete courses at the end of 12th grade scheme. For parents of gifted kids, thousands of university-course dollars can be saved with AP over IB course-taking.
For parents who say, “My daughter wants to earn her degree at the University of France,” IB is probably the best choice. But for parents that plan to send their kids to the University of Kansas, or KSU, or to out-of-state College-Board-member universities like Washington U or Northwestern, Michigan, Georgia Tech or MIT, AP is the best choice.
JB…..Sorry about the nasty tirade toward Kansas. He is just another troll who thinks he is an expert on anything and everything.
Kansas…..Bring in it on troll, “grill” me about whatever you sniveling piece of crap.
dtc……….first, some of us “go to bed” because we want to actuallysleep” in prepartion for the next day.Now to address your education agenda. It is clear that you would prefer that the market have control of everything, including our children’s schools. As long as you keep howling about vouchers and similiar schemes to divert public tax dollars to the private sector, you are an enemy of community schools. There is nothing you can post that will ever make think otherwise. You are not worthy of my time.
I am not here to “advance my cause”. I read and occasionally post on the WEBlog to challenge those who post crap that is just too out there. I do not care if you like my style. I do not care if you think I’m a teacher with a bad attitude. The truth is, I CAN be a teacher with a bad attitude. My students learn and enjoy my subject matter. To me, that is the bottom line.
Doc Schooley……………nice long diatribe on the NAEP testing and IB Schools. I tend to agree that 259 should invest more in the AP program, but to disparge the IB program at East in the same post wasn’t really neccessary. Also, to say that there is already a voucher system in place is NOT truthful. You could use the same analogy for sports or any other specialty program offered in the district.
That being said, most of what you posted was a history lesson. I have said this too you before and I’ll say it again. If you are a resident of USD 259, then stop pontificating here and present your suggestions to the BOE through the open microphone time at the BOE meetings. If you still live out in the Andover district, stop crticizing the Wichita schools because you really have no investment in our schools.
I’m sure you have a wealth of content knowledge you could share with any educational system Doc. Over the time I’ve interacted with you here, you have had some great reform ideas. But…………much of what you post is generouslly laced with what smacks to me of elitist, money driven ideas. Meaning…….what you say SOUNDS good, if there was unlimited money. To me, that equates to families with the financial resources to participate in your ideas will be the only ones who will, in reality, benefit. I can never back many of your ideas for that reason alone.
Apophis–This is specifically for you. You and your kind, for I am sure there are many mini-Apophis’s out there, are exactly why my children will not step foot in USD 259’s version of government schools. You look at the money as YOUR money. Get a clue you arrogant jerk, it is MY tax money which you have confiscated in the name of education. You are not even bright enough to look back at my original posting with USD 259’s numbers. They are despicable! What have you as a government school educator done to improve this? Obviously nothing! You are so caught up in the liberal’s (let’s call them what they really are) left wingers point of view that you can not see anything. I posed you 1 question which you ignored and blew off as not legitimate. The real reason you ignored it was that you can not answer it. You and your kind have no answers. You only have the power (money) currently. Elections will come and go and the BOE may see a new look in the future. Who knows, maybe all the children will leave USD 259 for better pastures, possibly Andover. Then when there are very few students left in your Community Schools, we will see who has the power. Until then, I hope you enjoy wearing those whiskey-goggles as you ride the government funded gravy train off into the sunset of your retirement, you arrogant bastard! Perhaps at that time you can seek treatment for your severe case of rectocranial inversion.
Maybe Apophis is not really a teacher in the public schools. He might just be someone paid to make the Wichita schools look bad.
Because I think that anyone reading his writings would certainly not want their children to in his classroom.
He does a good job at making the Wichita public school system look very bad. The Wichita Eagle might consider blocking his posts on this blog if they ever hope to gain support for more money for these schools.
Apophis doesn’t think I as a land and homeowner in USD 259 is entitled to an opinion on schools and school policies.
Apophis takes the easy way out and calls me a troll so he can discount anything I may opinion I write.
So Apophis, what sort of science discipline do you teach?
Is it physical science? Chemistry? Biology? Middle School or High School Level?
Or do you conduct the frog and beetle nature lab out of the trunk of your car?
:)
Apophis,
Haven’t seen your mug for a while. I hope you had a great summer and got the old batteries recharged. (As best at possible, at your age. ;-) )
You’re far better positioned to get the BOE, Superintendent’s and legislature’s ear than I am.
I live in Andover district, and so you say I should shut up, as I have no vested interest in USD 259. But look at things this way: I don’t have an ax to grind. Often people outside a situation can see things that those inside can benefit from considering. This is why we have counselors (legal, family, therapy…) and consultants.
Actually, the Wichita economy does affect me, and I live within city limits as well, so Wichita’s education system, which serves the local economy affects me. If I lived in Dodge City, you’d have a reasonable point, but I live here.
On IB, please consider what I said:
“IB is a very good college preparatory program, but you have to understand its mission, premises and limits.”
You, among all people, should be most concerned that a private contractor runs the IB program. True, IB is a nonprofit corporation, unlike Wall Street-listed Edison that the BOE tried out for a few years, but the fact is, IB, is private, and is not publicly examinable or accountable. It’s quite opaque.
I detest hypocrisy. IB’s flagship schools, the schools that IB treasures as its BEST schools, including the International School in Geneva (creator of the IB diploma), the UN School, and the Atlanta International School (AIS) are PRIVATE schools. BTW, they’re darn expensive with $17,000-22,000 tuition. I think you will agree this level of cost is ELITIST, by anyone’s accounting. So-called “elitist” Wichita Collegiate’s tuition is HALF what American IB private schools charge.
At AIS, tuition for four-year-olds in the 4K (pre-K) program is $14,494. At 5th grade the tuition jumps to $16,165, and at 9th grade it goes up to $16,979. Additional costs are charged for first-time entrance ($3000 matriculation fee), bus service, sports participation, overseas school-sponsored trips, a $1,080 meal plan, and $2300 for after-school supervision.
So for a 4th grader whose professional parents don’t have time to pack lunchboxes, and who is supervised until Mom or Dad picks him up after work, the annual cost is $17,874. If the student transfers to AIS in 4th grade, the tab for that year, including the matriculation fee is $20,874.
For a full 14-year enrollment, starting in K4, the total cost of attending AIS would be (in current dollars) $260,660 dollars, not including transportation.
To put two kids through is a $520,320 proposition. This includes the fact that the second kid’s matriculation fee is reduced to “only” $2000. For three kids, the cost is $779,980. The third kid’s matriculation fee is reduced to $1000.
AIS does not offer tuition discounts to second and third siblings, as Wichita’s parochial, fundamentalist and non-sectarian private schools do.
Not surprisingly AIS is located in Buckhead, which Kev can attest is Atlanta’s wealthiest area, home to CEO’s, successful entrepreneurs, and the city’s leading attorneys. Doctors are at the lower end of Buckhead’s income scale. Buckhead hotels include a Hyatt Grand (Hyatt’s luxury hotel tier) and a Ritz-Carleton (think $300 for a “basic” room, to $1200 for a suite—for ONE NIGHT). America has 14 Mobil 5-star rated restaurants. Buckhead has 2 of the 14. Buckhead’s top-tier department stores aren’t Von Maur and Dillard’s, they’re Neiman Marcus and Saks Fifth Avenue. Want a $3000 suit for daily work? Armani has THREE stores in Buckhead. A diamond engagement ring? Forget Zales. Go to Tiffany’s in Phipps Plaza. Buckhead is called “The Beverly Hills of the South”. Do you need to wonder why?
IB’s core mission is to promote intercultural understanding, celebrate diversity, and bring people of all races together to achieve global peace and harmony. This is what public-school IB programs are designed for. They break down segregation walls, right? So surely IB’s private schools follow the party line. They have to, right? Otherwise IB would be spewing fraudulent do as we say, not as we do propaganda, right?
Atlanta’s population is 61% black. So, AIS, following the ideals of its parent institution is very diverse. It has black students, Latino students and Asian students. Here’s how many it has:
At this spring’s graduation, there were 53 AIS seniors. Ethnic breakdown:
43 white (81%);3 Black (6%) (all girls, of note, no black boys);2 Hispanic (4%) (both girls, no boys);3 Chinese (6%) (all boys);2 South Asians (Indian / Pakistani) (4%) (one girl, one boy)
That’s really promoting multicultural diversity, eh? AIS didn’t even have a single black male in its Class of 2007.
You might say, “AIS is not owned by IB, it only buys the IB curriculum. AIS’s miniscule token- minority-admissions policy is denounced by IB.”
Actually, IB’s current President Monique Seefried was headhunted from AIS, where she was the founding headmistress. AIS was one of the first schoolsto be approved to offer the IB Primary Years Programme in 2004, making it in essence a “laboratory school” for the PYP initiative. The IB website gives info on all IB schools. AIS is one of only a handful of schools that is awarded not just a text blurb, but a photograph (of the school)—the UN school doesn’t even get one. http://www.ibo.org/school/000582/
Take-home lesson, AIS is in absolutely good graces with IB. AIS is considered by IB to be one of its showcase schools representing the best of what IB has to offer. If AIS were not, the AIS head would not have been tapped to manage IB’s global operations.
Apophis, I think you will agree that IB is a two-class system. If you are an executive running an overseas division, your corporation will pony up $20,000 for each of your kids to attend a private IB school. If you’re a lower-level guy working in the same office, e.g. a sales rep, then Mom and the kids will just have to stay home in America.
East High students are not getting the $20,000 version of IB education. They can’t be, because USD 259 isn’t budgeting that amount of money per capita student.
At AIS students can take all three IB programme sciences: chemistry, physics and biology, rather than only two, as in the public IB programs. AIS students can take FOUR HL courses, whereas East High IB students are limited to THREE maximum. AIS Model United Nations students got to travel to Duke University, Ireland and the Netherlands last year. Not just one trip per MUN student, but all three. Don’t even think about that for East High MUN students, because it’s too expensive. AIS’s foreign language teachers are natives and university graduates of the countries whose languages they teach. Two AIS French teachers have Universite de Paris degrees. That’s France’s version of Oxford or Harvard. How many East High IB French teachers went to French universities, or the Ivy League?
What I don’t like is hypocrisy. I think the goal of integrating students of different races is worthwhile. But if IB is going to “sell” this notion to American taxpayers in places like hinterland Kansas, it needs to ensure that PRIVATE IB diploma programme schools do the same thing. Otherwise it’s an elitist organization. A school located in a city in which 6 out of 10 citizens are black, but the school has only 0.6 blacks per 10 students, is NOT promoting interracial inclusion.
It’s not just AIS, either. The Awty School in Houston has many Middle Eastern students, the children of oil ministries’ executive personnel, because Houston is one of the world’s oil capitals. But its black students comprise less than 8% of the school enrollment, even though the city of Houston is over 25% black.
Similarly, at the French American International School in San Francisco, and the Lycee International of Los Angeles, no attempts are made to model the student body compositions to in some tangible way reflect city demographics.
When an organization’s leaders say, “We’re promoting integration,” but what they mean is, “If I were transferred to the U.S. I’d send my kids not to a nearby integrated public IB school, but to a nearly-lily-white private IB school,” that would be hypocrisy. It would be elitism.
At the United Nations International School, kids of all colors and nationalities are enrolled. But the black students there aren’t from Harlem, they are African children of privilege whose parents can rip up parking and speeding tickets with impunity, and can’t be arrested for belittling New York cops when they are stopped for running red lights, because they have diplomatic immunity. That’s elitism.
Here is a really interesting development. Teachers College, an affiliate of Columbia University in New York City, is the Granddaddy of all teachers colleges in the U.S. It invented the notion that teaching K-12 kids was a matter of learning and mastering educational method principles and practices. Subject matter knowledge was demeaned as knowing how to teach was put on a pedestal.
Funny that. Because now Teachers College is doing a 180. It is now promulgating the idea that subject-matter knowledge is essential.
http://www.tc.columbia.edu/news/article.htm?id=5974
How long is it going to take for this “new paradigm”, which is actually as old as there have been good teachers, to reach Kansas?
A couple of questions raised by Mr. Brooks’ comments to the Editorial Board:
1) What are the math results?
2) What are the reading results?
3) Was the “achievement gap” narrowing in the elementary schools the result of higher performance by minorities in light of higher performance by non-minorities, or was it due to a slippage of non-minority students’ scores, or some combination of both?
4) What were the “achievement gap” results of the middle schools and high schools?
5) When will something be done to improve the academics of the district middle schools?
All very good questions VT. Maybe someone from Brooks office will read these comments and realize the public wasn’t taken in by the rhetoric he spewed.
I think this was an attempt to soften voters for another run at a tax increase for more school improvements.
Throwing money at a problem won’t solve it. I guess it will back to the drawing board.
Interesting. Everyone says throwing money at it won’t fix the problem, which for the most part I agree with.
Yet then they say that we should have school vouchers to send students to private schools.
We’ve already covered how private school curriculum and teachers aren’t different from that of public school.
So what’s the big difference? Private schools charge tuition,so they have a lot more money. That means smaller class sizes, better facilities in many cases. This sometimes leads to higher test scores, which is why you people think private schools are so great.
So by some of your own reasoning, throwing money at it should help the problem. Yet for some reason you fail to apply that reasoning to public schools. Interesting.
jb, the Wichita school system spends over $12,000 per child per year. A very good private school in Wichita charges from $5,000 to $8,000.
Who is it that spends more?
Mr. Brooks:
I commend your attention, or the attention of someone “downtown” to the following:
http://tinyurl.com/2846s6
anon, may I suggest that the “average” you cite is a bit misleading? For example, it is my understanding that the average cited includes Special Ed costs, a cost the private schools don’t face. What I think is a more telling number is what the district receives for the education of the students in the top two quartiles, which would be more comparable to the make up of the student bodies of most private schools. Oh, by the way, in my thought process I don’t include transportation costs incurred by the public schools which are not applicable to private schools, or, if transportation is provided by a private school, the parents pay extra for it.
Vaughn, if there is actual evidence of the need to spend that way, I would appreciate learning of it.
But in Florida, the McKay scholarships for special ed students were worth about $6,900 to the school, and about 75% of the families using them spent either $0 or less than $1,000 more than the voucher. These scholarships were for all types of special needs students, and the parents were happy with the results.
Now I have no doubt that the public school lobby will tell anyone who asks that special ed students are VERY expensive to educate. After all, when spending someone else’s money, everything becomes expensive, and many students have special, expensive needs! What else would we expect from a bureaucracy
anon, I’m not familiar with the McKay scholarship program in Florida.
On special ed costs; as I’m sure you are aware, some special needs students need relatively inexpensive “extras”; some need a lot. From memory, a few years ago the local BOE was transferring some $millions from the general fund to the Special Ed fund, and a discussion was had of a certain number of special needs students who cost the district in excess of $100,000 per year to “meet their needs”, which costs were not met by Federal and State funding. Wichita is a “magnet” for high cost special needs students, as I understand it, due to the availability of various services here. I’ve been told that there are districts within the state that recommend to the parents of such students that the family move to Wichita to have the student’s needs met. It is my understanding that many do so. No link or anything resembling “proof” here, just memory from BOE debates over funds transfers, and “stories”. One case I recall involved a student who was bedridden, and in need of constant nursing attendance. Hopefully someone out there will be able to substantiate/refute my recollections.
I am one who thinks that if a private school needs to charge tuition and fees in excess of the state per student funding for students who generally don’t need special services, etc., then adopting the presumption that a private school charges no more than necessary to educate its students, including (generally) a lower salary/benefits package for its faculty/staff, then while there’s some argument to be made that the difference is offset by “economies of scale”, the basic funding may be too low.
anon, I took a bit of time and used the “google” to obtain information on the McKay Scholarship program in Florida. From what I read, the program is available to students with disabilities who have an IEP. The amount of the scholarship is the base per student aid amount in Florida; I saw nothing that indicated any extra money being available under Florida’s school finance plan for Special Ed students being a part of the said program. Now, as there are additional fundings, both state and federal to my knowledge for Special Ed in all states, this raised the following question: “Who gets the extra money”? If the McKay Scholarship is used to transfer between public schools, I speculate the answer is that the attended school receives it. If, instead, the student uses it to attend a private school, who gets it? From the FAQs, there is no indication that the private school receives the same. Thus, is the public school district in which the private school is located obligated to provide the Special Ed services? I couldn’t ferret out any answer to this.
Vaughn, from the reading I’ve done, the private schools provided the special education services, and were happy to do so.
From my reading, students needing special education services received a voucher worth more (the $6,900) than what non-special needs students received.
Imagine, if you will: some might have even earned a profit! Horrors!
(Of course, unless you have a monopoly, the only way you can earn a profit is to provide a service that people like and are willing to pay for. Profits are the sign that is happening. Governments have no such signal.)
the national teacher shortage worsens … i guess since teaching isn’t a “real job” everyone has finally come to their senses and decide they’d rather do something “meaningful” with their life …
http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6727629
common sense,
I think what scared a lot of people off from teaching is the teacher re-certification exams. I have to admit, I don’t understand how they work.
I’m not sure why they would be scared of such a thing, many professions have periodic certifications (medical, engineer,financial, real estate, etc.)
What “teacher re-certification exams” are you babbling about troll?
As uusaul, you think you are an expert on all matters. Go crawl back under your republican rock troll-boy.
Apophis–Good to see you made it back from your gruling day at the shop. Please read my last posting. It fits you so well!
Kansas,
It isn’t as much the exams as it is the KPA – Kansas Performance Assessment … it’s a bunch of bureacratic paperwork that new teachers must complete in order to earn their professional license … this all AFTER taking all of the appropriate coursework and passing all of the exams.
This is costing Kansas numerous teachers who can take their provisional license somewhere else, making a lot more money, and not have to do that KPA piece of crap – it’s a joke that contributes to our teaching shortage.
i don’t know if this is something anyone else has pondered …
with the decrease in housing valuations, we will see a decline in local taxpayer amounts going to school districts which is going to exacerbate the teacher shortage because raises may turn into salary “freezes,” reductions, a possible increase in class sizes, and increase in LOBs to offset the valuation decline … don’t count on an increase in state or federal monies – the burden will fall on the local yokels.
how will potential teachers be attracted to the profession if salaries are a greater unknown?
common sense………..the truth is that the enemies of community schools don’t care about the future. All they want is for the current system to be destroyed and replaced by for-profit institutes.
They WANT our community schools to fail.
Apophis,
that is a correct statement (that they WANT our community schools to fail).
i have a B.S. in Math (no pun intended) … and looking at AYP from a statistical perspective makes it INEVITABLE that eventually EVERY district will NOT make AYP.
plus, there are a number of unjust practices imbedded into the calculation of AYP that make the accountability a gross misrepresentation of what it really happening in U.S. schools.
i’m really “in the know” on AYP stuff – it’s a travesty what is happening in education. it is going to take DECADES for education to recover, if at all.
Here we go with this community school crap. Grow up Apophis. If your system is not working it needs to be replaced. It is an antique. Maybe for profit institues are what it will take. Also, there is nothing wrong with recertification exams. You are probably afraid you will not pass a recertification. Many other professions do, possibly the government gravy train would not exist then. Have you gotten help for your rectocranial inverson yet?
dtc,
and vouchers are not a feasible solution – unless your goal is to create a class system and increase achievement gaps … do some due diligence on the subject.
Public schools have already failed. The public education bureaucrats just don’t know it yet.
Discriminating people are fleeing government schools.
include teachers in that group of “discriminating people,” anonymous … they are fleeing the profession in droves and doing something a lot more rewarding.
perhaps if parents, students, and society accepted ANY measure of blame, we could find a solution … but since those aforementioned groups are innocent, i guess we’re left with the professional martyrs who are too stupid to quit or too late in their career to get out. i feel sorry for them.
All you government school people have been brain washed into thinking a voucher system would end up being more government schools. It would not! A private school could accept students as it normally does. The money would follow the student. You are so afraid if you loose money (power) then you loose. As soon as you get over your feeling of inadequacy to not having the power the sooner we can get on with a better system. If it takes $12,000 to educate a student in government schools, then the $12,000 could go to a private school. We all would live better.
it’s obvious you haven’t looked into research – either that or you can’t read.
you are so uninformed, it’s laughable …
look up the term “dance of the lemons” …
for what it’s worth, i do believe you have ALL THE ANSWERS – they just aren’t all correct.
dtc is just a hater. He detests the concept of community schools. The RWing crazies don’t understand the complexities of the word “community”. To them, education should be treated as a business, to make a profit at the expense of our public taxes.
Common sense, I to understand AYP and its problems. I tend to ignore it and teach what should be taught, not what is on the test.
It is clear that the critics of community schools have no idea of the current system. There is NO “re-certification” exam. If there was,I would gladly take it and would score in the exemplary range.
You see, not every educator is going to just sit back and take the bashing you RWingers dish out. The truth of the matter is that you RWingnuts aren’t going to change the system with your bellicose rhetoric. The more you bloviate, the more foolish you RWingers look.
I’m off to watch the Daily Show and Colbert Report. Be sure to post all kinds of crap on here after I leave. I’ll need a good laugh in the morning!
hey, dtc,
just because you have a degree does not make you an expert in education …
just like me driving a car does not make me an expert mechanic.
drop the voucher thing – it will NEVER work – EVER … NOT EVER … unless you prefer creating a reverse bell curve where there’s no one in the middle and a bunch on either end of the spectrum … heck, who knows – maybe that IS what you want.
common sense,
Thanks for the information about the assessment.
I was probably thinking of Texas when I lived there. I remember there was a big hoodoo about it, just didn’t pay much attention to exactly what it was all about.
I think I need like 16 credit hours to get a B.S. in Mathematics. At my age, it would probably be more like 24 credit hours to get back into proper thinking state. :)
Thought about teaching at one time, but the military thing happened and well, here I am, old and torn up, blogging and doing some minor things of life.
anyways, night all…
good stuff, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydktXR5BKJA
More on IB and AP.
IB is useful as a start-up college preparatory program for communities that don’t have the knowledge to create successful colleg-preparatory programs on their own. IB’s Standard Level courses are a sound intermediate between traditional high school courses that do not prepare students for university study, and AP courses that are too difficult for many students. Even Higher Level courses, which are equivalently creditable to AP courses by universities, are taught over a longer continuum, making their content easier to assimilate than AP courses.
The real issue, whose IB vs. AP relevance I will describe below, is the student-age / academic-content-matching problem, a product of industrial economy ideology. Children have widely varying learning capacities. Special-ed students are given a slower pace than normal. Why aren’t gifted kids given a faster pace than normal. As the recent Time cover story pointed out, putting a 140 IQ student among same-aged students in a class designed for a 100 IQ median is as pernicious as putting a 100-IQ kid in a special ed class for kids with 40 IQ.
Our schools create frustration, boredom, underachievement, and even rebellious behavior, that gets unfairly punished, while the inciting cause, the abuse of brilliant young minds by industrial-model age-grouping is not recognized. This represents a state of denial on the part of the education system.
Schools are extremely reluctant to skip children to higher grades, based on vapid notions of “socialization” that never had any scientific foundation at the time of their original propagation, and these false notions became imbedded “sacred cows” that are still stupidly adhered to. Anecdotal evidence recently buttressed by scientific research has shown grade-skipping to not only be well-tolerated by gifted children, but very beneficial to their intellectual and social development.
Consider for example, a 5 year old who arrives to kindergarten having learned to read at home, and now reading at a second grade level. Is the solution to make the student spend time working on the alphabet she mastered at age 3? Or to force her to sound out phonetic letter combinations that for other students represents a new learning experience, while for her are “been there, done that” tedium?
What about the 11 year old who has been studying science at home for years, who knows more science than his fifth grade teacher, and who would find Apophis’s 8th grade physical science class very interesting, but provision can’t be made for him to be transported to the middle school for a science class. Fifth grade science will have to do, even though he isn’t learning anything.
Why is AP better than IB for higher-IQ (e.g. 135+) students? AP isn’t for every college-bound student. But there are kids in the East High IB program who deftly master a university semester’s worth of calculus by the end of 12th grade. That’s a very good level of math for a high school nerd– for 1965 when AP Calculus was broadly disseminated to help maintain America’s Cold War technology edge over the Soviet Union. Actually, 12th grade AP Calculus AB is still offered. But AP Calculus BC, covering a full year of university credit is a better course for our brightest math students. It is taught at the same pace as in universities, helping to prepare students for that pace before they go to university. It is creditable as two semesters of calculus, which can save parents anywhere from $768 for Calculus II (KSU) to $2,000-4,000 (out-of-state public university, or private university or liberal arts college). It challenges students who have the capacity and work ethic to absorb more math than very good, but not outstanding math students.
But there’s more here. Increasing numbers of students are taking Calculus BC in 11th grade, and some even in 10th. Then they take second-year university mathematics , or even third-year, in 12th grade. Then they can go to university to earn their degrees and begin doing research as freshman or sophomores, being mentored by professors while their same-age peers are taking impersonal 200-student Calc I / II lecture courses and are struggling to understand graduate student instructors who don’t speak intelligible English.
But this isn’t the whole story. Students who complete first-year calculus early are ready for AP Physics C, or a nearby university’s course in engineering physics.
Wichita is cut off from the outside world. But in Tulsa, Oklahoma City and Overland Park, which are less than 180 miles away as the crow flies, kids are taking AP courses in 10th grade and by 12th grade are settled into a 4-course university routine. These kids have no trouble getting through university in four years, often with double majors, or even three years, as they enter university with 30+ credit hours earned in high school, and sophomore standing.
This can save parents A LOT OF MONEY. For state university attendees it saves taxpayers money, and opens more spaces for deserving students –every student who graduates in 4 years vacates a spot 2 years earlier than the 6-year sojourner.
This is no small issue. Colorado and Georgia’s flagship universities have set very high tuition levels for state residents. Then they offer half-tuition-off stipends to every state resident, for 4 years. Students who dilly-dally get walloped in year 5 and beyond. Only about 40% of KU’s and KSU’s recent freshmen entrants have been graduating in 4 years. Kansas taxpayers foot tuition costs for 5th and 6th year students. Colorado and Georgia taxpayers decided to let dilatory students pay their own way after 4 years of subsidization.
But with AP programs, that problem is constructively reduced.
There are serious costs to lock-stepping kids, and major opportunities squandered. IB is a lockstep program. It doesn’t have to be. Atlanta International School received a special dispensation to begin teaching science courses in 10th grade, to enable interested students to complete IB biology, IB chemistry and IB physics. This was very likely done because some well-heeled AIS parents pointed out that other Atlanta high-priced schools were offering all three AP science courses.
IB’s Higher Level courses were originally created to compete with AP. But IB is always two steps behind the College Board, making changes only in response to influential parents’ urgings because their friends tell them their kids are taking this AP course and the other, but even there, the changes are most likely to be local authorizations for some time, as in the AIS 3-science class case, rather than across the board for all IB schools.
We have to think about Wichita’s economy, and local education’s impact on it. Our linchpin industry is aviation. Aircraft are products of mathematics, physics and materials science. AP pioneered the widespread planting of advanced mathematics, physics and chemistry in our nation’s high schools. IB’s role has been minuscule.
How so? There are nearly 11,000 public high schools teaching AP courses today. There are fewer than 450 public IB diploma program schools (some of these also offer AP courses). In the private school sector there are nearly 3000 schools teaching AP courses in-house, or else offering them through collaboration with nearby colleges—these are regular college courses that generate “AP” on students’ transcripts. For example, Bishop Carroll, Kapaun-Mt. Carmel do the latter, while Collegiate and Independent do the former. There are only about 30 private IB schools in America. The nearest one to Wichita is in Houston. With differentials of 11,000 to 400 and 3000 to 30, it’s not hard to figure out which program is the American standard.
These factors are important for many reasons. Wichita will at some point have to develop successor industries to aviation—it should already be doing so. These are going to be technological, i.e. math, science and engineering based. AP is designed to fit a technological economy. IB isn’t. For example, the College Board developed university-level computer science courses when this year’s East High seniors were in just starting elementary school. IB was more than a decade behind the College Board in producing its college-creditable HL Comp Sci course. Eleventh graders in Overland Park were learning Java programming a few years ago when the only Java course Wichita offered was a junior-level course at WSU.
This is one reason you want to be connected to AP: it creates 21st century economy-relevant courses in a timely manner. In essence, AP is a means of connecting Wichita to the rest of the nation, absent the “filter” of European educrats in Switzerland (along with a former American soap salesman) deciding what subjects are appropriate for students in Wichita.
We want companies to set up regional and national headquarters here. These offer jobs at all pay scales, including managerial and executive salaries whose dollars get redistributed throughout the local economy. These companies site-inspection teams look for school offerings that execs and managers want their children to benefit from. Dallas has landed scores of California tech relocations. Why? Because not only is real estate cheap, allowing the transferees to double their living spaces, but Dallas has numerous public and private AP schools, along with the Texas Academy of Mathematics and Science (residential 11th-12th grade program) just north of town on the University of North Texas campus. Our Realtor steered us to the Andover district because we had school-aged kids. Had USD 259 offered a 20-course AP program, we would have said, “We’d like to live in the Wichita school district. We’re not interested in Andover.”
If we want Wichita’s best-and-brightest kids to come back home, like our National Merit Finalists, superb academics for their children is a powerful lure.
Great K-12 academic programs are only part of the need. WSU needs to be reconfigured into a serious research university with serious students. High-paying companies are drawn to cities with talented hiring pools, university consultants, and university research that feeds commercial ventures.
Finally, I just want to reiterate that the College Board, which administers AP, is a consortium of EVERY PUBLIC FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITY IN AMERICA, every top 100 doctoral university, every top 100 liberal arts college, and hundreds of others. It also has high school and school district members, for instance Blue Valley (JoCo), Manhattan, OKC and Denver. That WSU and USD 259 are not members is emblematic of Wichita’s isolationism. Which is not a good thing for this community.
IB HAS ZERO CONNECTION TO ANY AMERICAN UNIVERSITY OR COLLEGE. Its only American officer, a retired Proctor & Gamble executive, hasn’t had any interaction with American universities since he earned a master’s degree several decades ago.
Of course IB diploma earners, and even those who don’t score high enough on their IB exams to get their diplomas, go to college, and they do well. But that’s not really saying anything. I set up a home-schooling program, and my kids were admitted to some great universities and colleges and did well. To objectively measure their learning-at-home, I sent them to summer programs for high-achieving students, and by that I don’t mean home-schoolers’ summer schools, I mean Harvard, Washington University in St. Louis and the University Chicago, where they earned A’s. I’m not even a professional K-12 educator.
But I know something about college preparation. My own was mediocre. In my first university, I couldn’t read my calculus textbook for more than 45 minutes before my brain shut down. Doing well required 3 hours of study. I acquired this skill, but it would have been very beneficial to have it on Day One. So I made sure my kids had it so they could hit the pad running.
In an AP program, senior students can take 4 courses. Thousands of AP students do this. No university is looking for 6 senior-year courses on the transcript. NOT ONE. IB’s mandatory 6 courses taken in senior year for diploma conferral is a notion of people who have NO CLUE what American universities and colleges want today: they aren’t looking for broad-and-shallow coursework, they want students who can digest the material of 3-4 courses at a time. In fact they are decrying the too-many-courses /not-enough-deep-studying high school model. But IB’s governors aren’t listening. They have a worldwide program to manage. Why should they follow American universities’ calls? The College Board does listen, because it is a consortium of these very universities. That’s why AP is better than IB, at least if you want your kids to go to American colleges or universities.
Actually, given the fact that IB’s president is French, but France has ZERO public IB programme schools, while IB-headquartered Switzerland has a grand total of TWO public IB programme schools, out of several hundred public secondary schools, I think that a modicum of common sense should convey a take-home lesson: IB is not necessary for domestically educating young people who are planning to stay in their own home country for their higher education.
Want to mull a couple really sad facts? One, the largest contingent of PRIVATE Collegiate School students go to what college? Public KU. KSU is number two on the Collegiate graduates’ list. Parents have to send their kids to private school to prepare them for Kansas public university entrance. Sad fact #2 is USD 259 believes that it has to contract with a PRIVATE European corporation to prepare Wichita’s brightest students for Kansas public university entrance.
you presume that it’s the school’s fault for their apathy?
heaven forbid students and parents accept any responsibility for things like effort, truancy, a lack of respect for authority.
look at the social ills we currently have in our country – and none of that has a negative impact on education?
the problem is that ALL parties are responsible for the education of a child – only problem right now is that the finger only points in one direction rather than both. until that gets corrected, nothing will change … and the teaching shortage will continue to worsen.
you guys have NO IDEA how bad it’s going to be … it’s no gloom and doom prediction either but reality.
MPS………….good post
But, I think you have are working with a faulty premise.
All of the Wichita High Schools (including East, with it’s IB program), already offer AP courses. True, the program needs expanded. These course ARE being offered none the less.
Excellent post comon sense. I am total agreement with you.
common sense, I’m sure you don’t mean to be doing this, but when you list all the problems with the present public school system, you are making a great case for scrapping the system in its entirety.
Incremental reforms have been tried many times, but the system is getting worse.
What is it, may I ask, that leads you to believe (this is the impression I get from you) that only government-supplied schools are feasible?
At the present, government has a near-monopoly on non-religious schools. Government certainly has a monopoly on the use of public funds for schooling. After paying all the taxes that go to schools, many families can’t afford a private school tuition.
Good posts, MPS and common sense. I do wish to temper a bit the enthusiasm for AP courses. While I agree the program needs to be expanded, I would point out that AP credits are only as good as the higher ed. institutions’ acceptance of the same. I am aware of the policy of the two colleges our daughters attend(ed); there was a limit on AP credits, IB credits, transfer credits for college courses taken in high school, etc., accepted by these schools.
The allowance of graduation credit for these courses varies as well, based upon each institution’s policy. Thus, for some institutions, a 5 on the exam is needed for there to be credit given; other institutions will give credit for a 4 or 5 on the exam; and some will extend credit for a 3 on the exam. Within an institution, the policy varies; for example, a 4 or 5 on the AP math exam gives the student credit, but a 5 on the physics exam is needed for credit to be extended. While no graduation credit might be given, there might be “placement” credit given for the course, e.g., completion of AP Calc AB with a score of 3 on the exam might enable the student to enroll in Calculus 2 as his/her beginning course, but again, no college credit is given for the AP calculus course taken in high school.
With all that said, students should take AP courses, if the same are offered and the student is one who would benefit thereby.
Then there’s the recent reporting that more students are taking more AP courses and getting better grades in them, but showing up at colleges less well-prepared each year. This has been reported by the ACT company.
anon, that may be the same report I saw which criticized the majority of AP courses as not really being college level.
On the grades point, there are many places where students are awarded “weighted” grades for taking AP courses as an incentive to do so. This means, depending upon the scheme, a student may get a 4.5 on a 4.0 scale as a grade in the AP course. College admissions offices (well, at least the two with which I’m familiar) are on to this, and among other information the student and the high school is requested to provide is how the school computes grades, and if there is a “weighted” scale in effect, a request to recompute the applicant’s grade on the basis of the traditional 4 point scale; so, assuming the maximum under the “weighted” scale is a 5 for an “A”, the hypothetical I gave above might result in that student’s grade in the course as being reported a “B+”, or a 3.5.
anonymous,
i’m not endorsing ANYTHING – especially not vouchers … the problem is much deeper than the classroom teacher or the education infrastructure.
the classroom is an extension of society as a whole – our society does not value education, work ethic, or integrity … yet, we demand that of teachers and NOT students?
there are a plethora of factors involved that influence education, of which the classroom teacher is ONE factor … until all of the other factors are addressed (equity, poverty, work ethic, respect), very little will change.
schools will max out on AYP within the next 1-2 years – below the magic “100%” … it’s a logarithmic trend and the trendline will flatten in the next year or so … the only remedy at that point will be for the US DOE to approve a “growth model” that rewards students for improving (rather than whether or not they passed).
that would be fair – but why should that matter? the system is stacked against education anyway … NCLB is set up in a such a way that failing is INEVITABLE … don’t believe me? do some due diligence and learn the intricacies of the legislation and it will become obvious.
my only presumption is that you do have a basic understanding of college algebra and statistics – if so, it shouldn’t take you long to realize what i’m talking about.
Good points.
AP courses not being equivalent to college courses is a hot topic.
There is no question that the campaign to massively expand AP teaching (currently approximately 11,000 of the nation’s approximately 17,000 high schools teach AP, with approximately 15% of the nation’s 12th graders taking AP courses, and over 20% in a half-dozen states) has watered some of the “classic” AP courses.
For example, in the 1960’s, during the campaign to intensively train mathematicians, scientists and engineers to beat the Soviets, students had to have 99th percentile math aptitude to be enrolled in AP Calculus. In my town, which had about 1600 12th graders, there was on AP Calc class, and it had 8 students. The two most popular university calc books were Thomas (MIT) and Salas . AP teachers adopted these books, because there were no specialized AP calculus textbooks for high schools’ use. The university textbooks were very dense, and formatted very differently from high school textbooks, as each section contained about 3 times as much text, and presented 2 to 4 key concepts, versus 1 key concept in high mathematics school texts. As a result, the vast majority of courses covered only the first 6 chapters, examining the material in depth, and this generated a semester of university credit, for a full-year-long course. Only very small percentages of course completers didn’t earn the 3, 4, or 5 score on the AP exam required for university credit.
Today 6% of 12th graders take AP Calculus AB (semester-creditable) which is to say students with 94th percentile ability (and often substantially lower) are taking the course.
In recent years 43-44% of AB takers have failed the AB exam and 19-20% of BC takers have failed that exam.
Several things are at play: prerequisite mathematics has been de-rigorized. In the 1960’s Houghton-Mifflin was tasked with development of a math series that would be useable in general classrooms, but at the same time, would provide the rigor suitable for the training of future math, science and engineering students. For example, three categories of exercises, A, B, and C were developed. Regular college-preparatory classes did A and B problems, while “nerd” classes did B and C problems. Today, we have 4-color semi-magazine-format textbooks, which are ostensibly more engaging to regular students. Fewer word-problem exercises have physics and chemistry relevance, more have business-transaction relevance. Pencil and paper graphing, which required calculation and mastering the visuo-spatial nature of Cartesian geometry, have been replaced by graphing calculators, which has eliminated a lot of the previous brain-learning required to solve problems.
Too many AP calculus teachers today, seeing the scope of subject matter in AP course syllabi fail to understand that students only have to get about 65-70% of the exam problems right to score a “5″, which scoring system is meant to encourage teachers to select topics for deep investigation, and not worry about getting through every topic on the syllabus. The latter stratagem generates superficial breadth, particularly because teachers can’t assign 10 hours of homework per week for students who are in school for 36 hours, and who have 6 classes, most of which have their own homework requirements.
These points being made, calculus can be taught well in high school, and is in some instances. Reducing courseloads to 4, like college, giving students more time for after-class study, can accommodate full-university-level presentation. This is actually what some very elite East Coast boarding prep schools do. In some West Coast schools with large Asian contingents the teachers give more home-reading and harder exercises than most schools, because their students are homework-oriented.
On crediting, all public universities and all leading private research universities credit AP courses with suitable exam scores. This tells us that despite some watering down of AP courses since their inception, they’re still deemed to be acceptable. The publics in particular want to move students through as expeditiously as possible so they can educate as many students as possible. (Dilatory students who take 6 years to graduate really clog up the system.) Stanford grants up to 45 credit hours—a full year—for AP and hometown college / summer program courses. Harvard and MIT are still offering credit without significant restriction, although Harvard is moving to credit only “5″ scores.
Less-competitive private colleges are also generous in crediting, because AP students tend to have higher SAT/ACT scores and graduation rates than regular-course students, which generate positive U.S. News and World Report metrics and rankings. Students who have large AP portfolios are typically offered merit scholarships to lure them in.
It seems to be some smaller, prestigious liberal arts colleges that are limiting AP crediting. They pride themselves on personalized teaching. Their faculty have Ph.D.’s. Their faculty teach primarily, rather than do research primarily, so the professors’ natural inclination is to feel that a mere high school teacher cannot possibly bring to a course, even an introductory survey course, the knowledge and critical thinking that they do. These small colleges want to instill class identity by having students share the same experiences. It’s also easier for freshmen to join “we’re all in this new boat together” study groups than for some to have to seek out sophomores. (In the big schools, where 20 freshmen are taking Honors Multivariable Calculus, the peer study-group hookups are straightforward.)
See a debate on this between Washington Post Education Columnist Jay Mathews and Pomona College president David Oxtoby. Last year, 20% of Pomona College’s freshmen had TEN or more AP courses completed. To give credit for all of them, freshmen would be sophomores at entrance, and Pomona doesn’t want them to be sophomores when they arrive.
Of note, most of the anti-course-skipping ruckus is being raised by humanities faculty. They feel they need to mold minds from stage 1. The math and science faculty opine, in stark contrast, “Freshman course material is routine, we’re happy to have well-prepared students skip that.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/17/AR2007071701116.html
MPS, thoughtful and worthy response for which I thank you. A few things that come to mind:
If Harvard is moving to giving credit only to those who score a “5″ on the AP Exam, and, e.g., KU will give credit for a “3″, which is the right approach?
On the approach of the smaller, prestigious liberal arts colleges (two of which, I freely admit, our girls attend(ed), I’ve often wondered if this is not an attempt to be sure the students are there for four years (and, btw, only four; if one does not believe this, I commend you to the catalogs of both Carleton and Colby, in particular the sections dealing with financial aid, etc.) for the evening out of the revenue stream from tuition, etc. payments. I’m not surprised by your comments on the “shared experience”; that’s very common at both named institutions.
Yes, the science and math faculties have little trouble with skipping traditional freshman intro courses; this provides the students who can do so with greater upper level course exposure, or, alternatively, to do guided research in the senior year, which, of course, builds the application for grad school, and buttresses the reputation of the undergrad institution.
“I MAKE A DIFFERENCE. What do you make Mr. CEO?”"
Instead of blathering on, why didn’t the teacher just say, “I make a thousand a week”? Nothing wrong with that.
The CEO helps a thousand people make a thousand a week. Nothing wrong with that.
Here’s some more information for parents, grandparents and others interested in college preparatory education, whether they’d like to save family money on university and college costs through preliminary course skipping and accelerated degree earning, taxpayer money on same, and anyone interested in raising our state’s university graduation percentages from 35-45% at our regional public schools to 50-60%, and raising our flagship universities graduation rates from dismal 57-58% to a respectable 70-80%.
Apophis said I had no right to speak about USD 259 as a non-district resident. Umm, actually I do have a right to speak, because I pay hefty tuition subsidies for USD 259 grads who attend WSU, KU and KSU who start out requiring remediation, and don’t give me a decent return on my contribution when they flail and drop out, or some of them plow through, but take 6+ years to graduate at expense to me. I could adopt the Colorado/ Georgia mindset to make students pay their entire instructional costs after year 4, but delayed degree-earning isn’t our students’ fault. So I want to pay for their education, I just want to see them use my contributions more effectively. And if I have to contribute more for K-12 education, there’s nothing I’d like better to do—if the investment is used wisely and cost-effectively.
I’d like to see our most talented Wichita young people come home because there are opportunities that inspire them, and an educational system they would love for their kids to be enrolled in. I’d like to see high-paying corporations relocate here, particularly as old reliable aviation payroll dollars are no longer so reliable. I’d like to see Wichita reinvent itself as the cosmopolitan place its early 20th century leaders envisioned.
Wichita needs to make major changes in its educational system. The “tyranny of low expectations” is holding young people and the community back. Wichita’s education system is evolving too slow a pace to catch up to a modern standard.
Let’s consider Tulsa vs. Wichita. Tulsa is closer to Wichita, as the crow flies, than one-third of the great state of Kansas.
Tulsa’s all-black Booker T. Washington High was converted to an integrated magnet school in 1973. AP courses were started. In 1983 an IB programme was started.
Today, Booker T. Washington offers 26 AP courses out of 37 created by America’s College Board, and 17 different-subject IB courses, created by Europe’s IB, including foreign language IB courses not just in ubiquitous Spanish and French, which it does offer, but also Latin, German, Russian, Japanese and Mandarin Chinese. Booker also offers Italian, which is not AP or IB tested. Booker students every year participate in exchange programs with Germany, Russia, Japan and Chima, as well as Mexico.
IB calls all its schools “World Schools”. Booker T Washington represents this ethos. Booker T Washington isn’t some hoytee toytee East or West Coast School. It’s a mid-continent school located a mere 3-hour drive from Wichita.
East High offers ONE pure AP course, in U.S. History, a subject to which Europe-headquartered IB has decided isn’t very important.
East High only offers Spanish and French—a step-down from 1950’s public high school college preparatory education that also offered German. China is our #2 trading partner, after Canada, and Japan is #4 after Mexico. There are excellent opportunities for Americans who speak either Mandarin or Japanese.
So, in Tulsa, an originally all-black public school was reinvented into a multi-race magnet in 1973 offering AP courses. Some of these were too hard, so IB was added in 1983. In Wichita there were no schools offering AP courses, except for Collegiate, and IB was brought to East High in 1990—seven years after this occurred in Tulsa.
Wichita was slower than Kansas City, Kansas, which opened an IB program in 1987. Mostly-white USD 259 followed mostly-black USD 500 in taking up the IB programme. This is how retarded Wichita’s public education system is.
In Tulsa, Booker students can take all AP courses, or a mixture of AP and IB courses or all IB courses.
Let’s examine some metrics. Jay Mathews has compiled a “Best High Schools” roster, based on a simple ratio of AP and IB tests taken to a high school’s number of graduating seniors. Since many tests recorded include those taken in 11th grade, this is not a ratio of AP/IB tests taken per 12th grader. Also IB schools are favored, because many of their IB students take both AP and IB exams, as AP is an open system—home schoolers and autodidacts can take AP exams–whereas AP-only school students cannot take IB exams, because IB restricts exam-taking to only IB-programme students. So, if your son or daughter at East High takes IB Mathematics, he or she can take both an IB exam and an AP Calculus exam, but if he or she takes calculus at Northwest or Northeast High, taking an IB Mathematics exam is prohibited. So IB schools with students taking both AP and IB tests for one course generate higher Newsweek rankings for IB schools, than AP-only schools of the same level of instruction.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18757087/?sort=Rank&count=1236&start=0&limit=100&year=2007&Search=undefined
In 2003, Booker T Washington was ranked #157 by Newseek, with a 2.1 combined IB + AP tests per number of graduating seniors.
In 2003 East High ranked #335 with 1.5 IB + AP tests. Booker beat East by 0.6 tests.
By 2007, Booker T Washington rose to #78, with 3.6 tests taken.
By 2007, East High fell to #535 with 1.8 tests taken: a rise of 0.3 tests. Booker now beats East by 1.8 tests.
Moreover, in 2007, 43%–over 2 out of 5—of Booker students passed one or more AP or IB exams. But at East High, only 19%–less than 1 out of 5—did.
Had East High improved its ratio of AP + IB tests taken per number of graduating seniors by 1.5 between 2003 and 2007, like Booker, its 3.0 score would have raised East High’s Newsweek ranking from # 335 to #137. Instead of rising by nearly 200 places, East FELL by 200 places.
But there’s more here. The Classen School of Advanced Studies in Oklahoma City became an IB school in 1995—12 years after Booker, and 5 years after East.
In 2003, Classen didn’t even make the Newsweek top 1200 high schools list, as its IB + AP tests to graduating senior ratio was less than 1. This year, Classen ranked #58 with a 3.9 value.
So it went up by more than 2.9 points. Had East High experienced a 2.9 point increase, it would have ranked #40 on the Newsweek survey this year.
Sumner Academy (formerly Kansas City High School) ranked #104 in 2003 with a 2.3 ratio. By 2007, it dropped a bit to #124, even with a growth in test ratio to 3.1. This being said, if East had also increased its ratio by 0.8, its ranking, based on a ratio increase to 2.3 points would have risen from #335 to #309. To wags who say, “That would have only been treading water,” a tiny ranking gain would have been a lot better than dropping down 200, which is significant sinking. And of note, 63% of Sumner Academy students passed one or more AP/IB exams: three times East High’s 19% performance.
(We can’t keep up with Sumner, they have too many black students, and every Wichitan knows that Northeast Kansas black students are smarter than South Central white students.)
These factors don’t even take into account Oklahoma’s having an “elite school” that is among 19 nationwide NOT RANKED by Newsweek because they are hyper-selective magnets that have 27+ ACT averages or 1300+ SAT averages. At the Oklahoma School of Science and Mathematics, campus-residing 11th and 12th graders do 2 years of college-level work.
Bottom line: How hard is it for the USD 259 BOE and Superintendent to take a short road trip to Tulsa, take copious notes, and develop a modern public college-preparatory program concordant to Wichita’s being the largest city in our state? USD 259 was urged to join the “Fair Fares” program a few years ago to support Air Tran’s subsidization. The district was contacted because it used a lot of flights—IIRC its air transportation budget was over $150,000 / year. The district could send 8 people in a van to Tulsa, lodge and dine them comfortably for a 3 day site visit at Booker for less than $2000.
Apophis says that Wichita is expanding AP. He’s right. At a glacial pace. Northwest High this year is offering 5 AP courses. That would have been a public college-prep showcase portfolio in 1965. But this is 2007. The College Board offers 37 AP courses. The West Side has a lot of really smart kids. Some make the sacrificial 60 to 90-minute daily bus ride to attend East which robs them of study time or other productive time uses. No talented, hard-working student should have to make this sacrifice, when there’s a high school 5 minutes from their homes that could have a 15-20 AP course portfolio, and arguably very well might have it already, were it not in the USD 259 district, being “held hostage” by a citywide “grand plan” whose planners don’t personally know anything about college prep, as they never took either AP or IB courses, and for that matter none attended KU or KSU, so they’re not personally familiar with what takes to meet the challenge of attending one of our flagship universities.
USD 259 doesn’t need a majority of KU and KSU alumni. But it needs to have 2 to 3 alumni, and when they speak on university preparatory issues, the board should respect their judgment and support it.
It’s not just me the “outsider” talking. Four years ago some “insiders”, i.e. retired WSU faculty, proposed creating a public 6th-12th grade math and science academy here for gifted students. Rejected by the Superintendent and BOE. A GREAT PROPOSAL was trashed. Flushed down the drain by people who didn’t even comprehend that AVIATION IS APPLIED MATHEMATICS AND SCIENCE. Our K-12 education decisionmakers didn’t even understand basic principals of the Wichita economy.
KU and KSU faculty, as well, are not happy about being saddled with high-school-remediation teaching duties, and then watching most of the remedial students flunk out and never earn KU or KSU degrees. USD 259 could be helping solve this problem. Instead it is making it worse.
Apophis doesn’t think anyone who does not belong to the Democratic Party or the Teacher’s Union have a say in what goes on in USD 259.
My ancestors have been here since the beginning of Wichita. I would think that would have an entitlement of some sort into the affairs for the schools of Wichita.
In fact, there may not have been such plenishings for schools in Wichita and Kansas without the influence of folks like my ancestors.