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Open thread 8/15
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Aug. 15, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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213 Comments
First post!
Woo Hoo!
Life expectancy in the U.S. has reached its highest point ever, but it is exceeded by the rates in 41 other countries, the AP/Arizona Daily Star reports. The U.S. has been slipping for decades in international rankings of life expectancies as other countries are improving health care, nutrition and lifestyles, according to the AP/Daily Star. Countries that rank above the U.S. include Japan, most of Europe, Jordan and the Cayman Islands. A U.S. resident born in 2004 has a life expectancy of 77.9 years, placing the U.S. in 42nd place, down from 11th place two decades ago.http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_reports/rep_index.cfm?DR_ID=46847
We’re #41!We’re #41!
Oops! make that #42.
I thought “we’re 41, we’re 41,” was the motto of Kansas.
My children are older now. In fact 2 of them are adults but when the grandkids come rest assured that I will NEVER by anything made by Mattel for them!
Still no apology from Murtha?
As charges against US Marines—with regards to an apparent fabrication of the “Haditha massacre”—continue to be proved false and based upon unsubstantiated “evidence”, only some of the leftist media appear to be standing by their original spin on the story. This media’s bent was based upon their proposition that the Islamist terrorists were telling the truth, that the accused Marines were guilty of murder. Of note is that this twisted account was picked up by leftist members of the US Congress—including former Marine and House Rep. Jack Murtha (D-PA)—who helped their media spread the poison.
Based upon no evidence at all, Murtha said that the accused Marines had “killed innocent civilians in cold blood” and “I know there was a cover-up someplace!” Neither of these ill-advised statements has proven to be true. In fact, they have been confirmed to be bogus. But, it didn’t matter as the “we hate the US Military and will say anything we want about it” crowd was in fine form and—with no evidence whatsoever—had already begun its renewed campaign against US soldiers. This same group also strongly implied these soldiers were murderers; a charge that has now shown to be both unwarranted and patently false.
http://www.newmediajournal.us/staff/zieve/08152007.htm
crickets
You want Mark Kahrs cell phone # so you can call him about your problems? How about Todd Tihart or Sammie Brownback? Visit http://www.intelius.com For a fee you can get any of their numbers!
Now that the truth is coming out about how crappy and weak the U.S. economy is what will the Repubs. have to crow about?
Anybody else notice the excellent letter to the editor in the paper version of the Eagle this morning? Way to go Mary C.!
Not long ago, the then head of NIMH made essentially the same argument for people with severe and persistent mental illness. He explained how deinstitutionalization happened so quickly. The liberals in government saw returning to the community as a good thing, conservatives saw the deinstitutionalization as a way to save money. Both sides favored it for entirely different reasons. Having SPMI people live in the community is possible, but it takes money and a caring community. Two things that are not in great supply during Republican administrations.
S.Davis: I too appreciated Mary Caruso’s letter in the EAGLE this AM and sent her an e-mail of appreciation.
Good job Mary. I hope the EAGLE opinion writers will provide a specific WE Blog thread on the homeless subject so all can add their comments on the subject.
I suspect what happened is that cash strapped federal and state governments “dribbled” down the costs to local governments by closing mental institutions and so forth.
But with the Federal Government facing a EIGHT (+/-) TRILLION DOLLAR DEBT, some amount which is in the hands of the Chinese government … perhaps its time for local governments across America to find new ways to handle the homeless situation.
Steven – Mary C – ditto. Lots of good points Mary.
A comment – I’d be curious to hear her views on – a sort of ‘half-way’ house setup with residential living but a ‘reasonable’ amount of freedom. Especially to assure that meds are taken.
Not sure how it would work but …
You just GOTTA love the Chinese. They kill our dogs, try to kill our kids, and just LOOK at how they treat their own people. Doesn’t it give you a warm fuzzy to know we are in a massive trade deficit with them and they hold ever so much of our debt?
“Weblog entries on some parts of Microsoft’s MSN site in China using words such as “freedom”, “democracy” and “demonstration” are being blocked. “http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4088702.stm
But the corporate world loves China so there will be nothing changing about the massive trade deficit.
The real power is in the Americans’ hands. If the general population would just stop buying the Chinese crap for even a short while, then WalMart and the rest of the corporate greedies would get the message.
Corporations only have one vulnerable spot – their bottom line. But there are those who will forever buy at WalMart and the other corporate greeders because these are the same people that don’t give a care. They somehow feel they are superior just because they get some piece of Chinese crap for a few cents less. Big whoop!
God save us all from asses like this. There are some good people here, but a handful of fellow liberals need all the help they can muster.
Here:
http://www.nopc.info/forum/
Support us, even for just a second, if you can spare it.
Maid,
We had this discussion a few days back. Some of the issues raised;
America needs to start producing a superior product at a fair price.Investors need to be more concerned with long term gains other than ‘make me a buck RIGHT NOW’ . i.e. remember when companies tried to build a name and a reputation? That was their main drive? That was future looking. Now they are worried about delivering to fast buck to the stock holder. Short sighted. Should something go wrong, like with Mattel, they will just sic their legal spinmeisters on the issue and dumb ole America will forget about it in a day or two.
I agree. We need to start at the grass roots and make America prideful again.
God save us all from asses like this. There are some good people here, but a handful of fellow liberals need all the help they can muster.
Here:
http://www.nopc.info/forum/
Support us, even for just a second, if you can spare it.
Went to the site. Looked at one thread. While a few good posters, by their language, and by their cazeiness, it is eithe full libs posing as conservatives, or jr highers posing as adults. I would suspect the latter
Steven – Mary C – ditto. Lots of good points Mary.
A comment – I’d be curious to hear her views on – a sort of ‘half-way’ house setup with residential living but a ‘reasonable’ amount of freedom. Especially to assure that meds are taken.
Not sure how it would work but …
Posted by: Ben | August 15, 2007 at 08:27 AM
Ben – There are halfway houses set up by MHA throughout the city. Not enough, but there are some. They are mainly for people who have just gotten released from OSH. They give them their medication, and they have a day program in the houses as well. However, it is not possible to keep people there against their will, and it seems difficult for people with SPMI, especially schizophrenia, to stay in a house full of people.
Also, there is an outreach program for the homeless through COMCARE, Center City, but it is difficult to earn the trust of someone who is both homeless and mentally ill.
U.S. may declare Iran guards terrorists
“But a move against the Revolutionary Guards would be significant as it is believed to be the first time a foreign government or quasi-government agency will be so designated.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070815/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_iran_terrorism
This fills me with dread. It seems that our government, and I believe this includes our congress, not just the Prez, is taking a step closer to war with Iran.
James Carville on Karl Rove. Worth the time to read IMO.
http://tinyurl.com/38fgby
I Liked that one Vaughn :-)
The latest from Michael Totten in Baghdad. Food for thought.
http://www.michaeltotten.com/archives/001504.html
For those more involved with the legal/constitutional aspect of this question – The presidet needs the congress to vote to go to war, but isn’t there a loop hole that will allow the Pres to deploy and instigate a war with another entity for a short lived time – say 30 days IINM?
With this loophole and the assets in place in Iraq, making a move on Iran could be devastating. Iran is supposed to be far more formidable than Iraq. So, more American lives lost and a new front. When the ~30 days expire, congress will be kind of forced to vote for war with Iran.
Any thoughts? It scare the crap out of ME !!!
Actually Sol,
I think the resolution passed before the Iraq invasion is general enough to cover just about anything the President wants to do.
Iran is attacking us. They are sending insurgents and supplies into Iraq. It’s about time we fought back.
Hank
For a good laugh at the expense of the AP.
http://www.bobkrumm.com/blog/2007/08/15/a-terrorist-sympathizing-actress-makes-fools-of-aps-editors/
Now that Carl Rove is gone the President has no one to prop him up.
Witness his meltdown yesterday with Hillary…engaging in the campaign when he should have shut up.
The meltdowns will continue as the Republican party finds itself on a downward spiral with only rich old farts for company.
Sol:
The president needs Congress only to declare war, historically, he does not need Congressional authorization to act.
What you’re referring to is essentially the War Powers Act. There is a long history in this country of presidents using military forces without prior congressional authorization. The War Powers Act, passed over presidential veto after Vietnam, was intended to reign in that power. And the War Powers Act, even as it has been complied with in order to avoid a showdown, has consistently been asserted to be unconstitutioal by presidents of both parties.
Though intended to reign in presidents, the Act may well have had the opposite effect. It concedes that presidents have the power they have always claimed: to initiate hostilities unilaterally, without prior Congressional authorization, even if the act requires Congressional authorization to continue military action beyond that initial period. By that time, of course, US forces may be deeply involved, and (as we’ve seen re: Iraq) no Congress wants to be seen as abandoning our forces on the battlefield.
As always, however, Congress still holds the cards. Congress can specifically forbid the expenditure of funds for operations in Iran.
Hank,
I have a question here. I wonder if you see a distinction with a difference between the Revolutionary Guard of Iran under the control, as I understand it, of the Revolutionary Council headed by the Grand Ayatollah whomever, which is not a formal part of the recognized government of Iran, and the government of Iran itself? I see one under my limited understanding of various provisions of international law. I would appreciate your thoughts.
“Congress can specifically forbid the expenditure of funds for operations in Iran.”
Not without getting vetoed. It’s a veto that, given the current partisan lineup, will be sustained.
GMC, very good points made in your 10:43 AM post concerning the War Powers Act, and the actual unintended (I think I’m safe in saying this) consequences thereof versus the intended consequences.
If Congress is going to expressly forbid the use of appropriated funds for actions against Iran, it may well behoove it to return “to work” by shortening the current recess.
Probably true, Tom.
I doubt there’s much Republican support for operations against Iran either. But you may well be right.
But that’s the process we have. Sometimes it aids our policy preferences, sometimes it doesn’t.
Tom, point well made.
The only way Congress can end military operations in Iraq is to refuse to pass a funding bill, or to pass a funding bill that only has money for logistics and transportation (”bus money home” so-to-speak). Of course, they just tried that, and let Bush back them into the corner with “you’re abandoning the troops in Iraq.”
The only person who can strand our military forces in Iraq is the person who sent them there in the first place. IMO, someone in Congress needs to grow a pair and call him out on his BS.
This:http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSN1420309820070815?src=081507_1102_DOUBLEFEATURE_voters_cool_on_outlookdiscusses the distinction brought up by Vaughn.
Funny link Heckler.
Reminds me of the time some farm neighbors a mile away from my gun club, found two rifle casings (no bullets) in their backyard.
They tried to get the gun range closed down, unsuccessfully that time.
Heckler–
Of course the Marines were found “not guilty.”
They were tried by the military.
I saw a soldier gun down a wounded man in mosque on TV. “He’s faking [being dead], he’s faking,” the soldier shouted and plugged the guy with a couple of rounds.
To my knowledge, nothing was done about this soldier killing an unarmed seriously wounded civilian who hadn’t even been identified as a combatant.
And if the military really wanted to press charges for massacres of civilians, they could start with the pay-back against the city of Fallujah.
They don’t because gunning people down and creating a sense of terror among the citizenry is what this occupation is all about.
The Romans used cruxifiction to keep their Empire. We use white phospher bombs and daisy cutters.
Same thing.
Calling All SOCIALISTS!!!
Come on you Socialists!
Stand up, go over to the nearest window, throw open the window and yell at the top of your lungs:
“I’m a Socialist! And I’m mad as he** and I’m not going to take Capitalism anymore!”
Get that off your chest, and then you will feel better.
CapnAmerica,
I do believe that the person the Marine shot was trying to detonate an explosive device and that is why he was killed.
That was during the time which the terrorists would surrender only to try to detonate an explosive as they were being taken prisoner.
The military justice system is not nearly as corrupt as you would have us believe either.
If you have any specific charges to say otherwise, then lets hear them.
Instead you simply insinuate that simply because it was a military who tried them that is why they got off.
Do you have anything to back that up?
It wouldn’t surprise me if a grenade was conveniently planted on the guy after the fact.
But the video didn’t show any “explosive device.”
Who are you going to believe–the explanation or your own eyes?
Here–
watch it yourself:
http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=/watch%3Fv%3Deu774R7W9b0
Max–
Isn’t it about time for you to get out your bobble-head fetish of Rush Limbaugh and kiss his little plastic feet?
I think he’s on the air now.
Go work yourself into a lather over gays, Mexicans, and liberals . . .
Vaughn, do you have some info on Michael Totten? Is this the guy that also made a video that may be available?
Sounds very credible and very informative. Good link above.
Plastic feet? Good one Capn, will have to remember that one.
LOL.
Marine cleared in videotaped shooting
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/05/falluja.marine/
Calling All SOCIALISTS!!!
Come on you Socialists!
Give it a rest max, lately all I hear from Wall Street is ooh bail us out were losing money boohoo capitalists and pretend free markets what losers.
The government of Iran is kind of complex. It is my understanding that the Ayatollah Ali Khamenei pretty much runs the country.
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (sp?) serves at the pleasure of the ayatollah.
IMHO
Thanks, guys. I think secure group homes would be a good idea for those who have trouble living independantly in the community. I also think families should be able to legally do more when their loved one gets sick..right now their hands are tied, and so many with severe mental illness end up being abandoned by their families who are frustrated at their inability to do anything about the situation. No one wants to go back to the days when being institutionalzed was like “One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest”, but there can be a happy medium between the old days of warehousing people and the other extreme of allowing them to live and die on the streets.The state doesn’t want to spend any more money to solve this problem, so it’s willing to just let the Church and other charities take care of the basic needs of the homeless and look the other way.
“He’s faking . . . he’s f***ing faking he’s dead!” BLAM BLAM BLAM BLAM
“Well, he’s dead now. See if there’s anybody up on the roof.”
Not a word about an explosive device.
So Hank, how would you suggest we fight Iran? Do you think we have enough troops to invade them, too? Or do we need to bring back the draft? Are you going to sign up?
Hank, thank you for your response.
Max, what I know of Mr. Totten is what I’ve gleaned from his web site; he’s a “free agent” journalist in Iraq who is not associated in any way with any MSM organization, and his reports are posted on the web from time to time. I was apprised of him by a client many months ago, and check in on his site from time to time.
Thanks for the link, Nathan.
That’s exactly what I’m talking about.
This marine shoots an unarmed, probably unconscious, severely wounded man and the Navy investigation calls it “self-defense.”
Yeah, you can’t make this s*** up.
Mary,I didn’t get to see your editorial because the Eagle did not post it online. Here is some research on Housing mentally ill that is very interesting. We have been promoting a “Housing First” program, but as you know.. it takes “Money First”!
http://www.pathwaystohousing.org/Articles/Research.html
From Nathan’s link.
“”The evidence indicates that based on the actions of those AIF (anti-Iraqi forces), the corporal reasonably believed that they posed a hostile threat to him and his fellow Marines and justifiably fired in self-defense.”The enhanced videotape of the shooting supports the corporal’s claim that the wounded AIF was concealing his left arm behind his head,” the Marines said in a statement.The report said that while it isn’t “clear” whether insurgents in the videotape “made any overtly threatening gestures, it is clear that the Marines “were aware that feigning death was a common enemy” tactic.”
What should they have done Capn? Asked him if he wanted some girl scout cookies? Why do you hate Marines?
Not only does it take money, but someway to get over the impediement of not being able to hold these people against their will. However, while it MAY be the province of the government to provide the funding, there is nothing to stop private funding of facilities now.
CapnAmerica doesn;t believe the military investigators, or anybody having to do with this administration, hence, it matters not what was found.
CapnAmerica,
Obviously you don’t understand what someone can go through during combat.
You don’t understand the tactics the enemy had been and was using.
You don’t understand rules of engagement.
You don’t understand how the military justice system works.
Yet, you somehow think that while you sit here safely typing on a blog you have the ultimate knowledge on what happened because you see a short video clip?
Hell, let’s just nuke the whole country because some of them pose a threat.
I’m sure you reich-wingers would come up with a rationale to justify it.
“Yeah, you can’t make this s*** up.”
Apparantly you can, Capn. You are.
Trained investigators, after reviewing the scene, the videotape, the ballistics evidence, and interviewing all parties involved concluded that the soldier acted appropriately under the circumstances.
But YOU, sitting in your comfortable chair several thousand miles away, on the basis of a single piece of video filtered through the media machine, conclude otherwise.
What are you – clairvoyant? Perhaps you have some super-secret info that the rest of us lack? If so, please fill us in, oh wise one. Share this fount of special knowledge . . .
What, there is no “special knowledge? Well, then, you “make this s*** up.”
And your conclusion has any credibility – just why, again?
“You don’t understand how the military justice system works.”
Oh, I think we see how it works all too well.
Put Marines in harm’s way and keep them up for a couple of days with no sleep, force them to fight in the streets with enemies who look exactly like innocent civilians and then expect them not to kill anybody who shouldn’t be killed.
The whole system is corrupt and immoral.
The only thing unusual about this incident was that it got caught on tape . . .
“on the basis of a single piece of video filtered through the media machine”
Yeah, it was the raw footage.
Did you even watch the video?
Bushco has got to stop sucking-up to the Zionist-ruling-class in Israel.
OPEC could retaliate by raising the price of crude to a “short-term” American economy-breaking price.
This could be the trigger:
The United States has decided to designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guard Corps, the country’s 125,000-strong elite military branch, as a “specially designated global terrorist,” according to U.S. officials, a move that allows Washington to target the group’s business operations and finances.
The Bush administration has chosen to move against the Revolutionary Guard Corps because of what U.S. officials have described as its growing involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as its support for extremists throughout the Middle East, the sources said. The decision follows congressional pressure on the administration to toughen its stance against Tehran, as well as U.S. frustration with the ineffectiveness of U.N. resolutions against Iran’s nuclear program, officials said.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20269253/
Sol–
I don’t hate the Marines and I resent the imputation.
The MARINE bears no blame for this debacle. The people who put him in that situation entirely bears the blame.
Why do you hate the Marines, Sol?
CapnAmerica,
What in the hell do you think war is???
It is not a game of checkers played on a Sunday afternoon in the shade while drinking a cool glass of sweet tea!
LOL
You think this is bad?
Try looking at what the Marines did in WWII in the Pacific.
Hey, Karl Rove is on Rush right now.
Let me move the speakers out next to the tomatoes.
Nothing is better than bullsh*t for the garden . . .
CapnAmerica,
That is funny. I was going to print out your comments about military justice and put them in my garden…
Alright, Nathan.
Since two wrongs make a right these days, I’m sure you won’t mind when our wounded catch a few rounds at close range for “pretending to be dead.”
US may designate Iran’s Revolutionary Guards as terroristsThe US has indicated that it may act unilaterally if the UN doesn’t approve further sanctions.By Dan Murphyfrom the August 16, 2007 edition
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0815/p99s01-duts.html
Yea, Capn, I’ve seen it. Let’s start with the obvious: you know it’s the raw footage, how? Who says so?
Even if so, are we conclude that any other investigation, any other information from – now get this, it’s important – THOSE WHO WERE THERE!!! is irrelevent? To be ignored? That’s it’s all a vast cover-up because, well, because you say so.
But you know better (from your perspective, HERE, not there, of course). Of course you do.
We know we should believe you, of course . . . uh, well, just why should we, again?
CapnAmerica,
Our wounded are not notorious for holding explosives on them and then attempting to blow themselves up when captured or upon surrender.
Are you really this ignorant man?
If Bush attacks Iran, will the right-wing finally admit that W. is flipping insane?
Nathan:
There is none so blind as he who will not see. Often, ignorance is willful.
Why is is acceptable for the U.S. to use Iraq as a proxy staging area, but unacceptable for other countries to do the same?
Okay, fine, Nathan.
Any comatose wounded guy is fair game.
Ours too, apparantly.
Fair enough.
Yea, right, and the ex-football player was killed by hostile enemy fire, too!! LOL
GMC–
The entire war is unjustified, immoral and a war crime.
This is but one example of the system that kills for power.
CapnAmerica,
You are beyond reason.
Capn
Must suck to be you.
And the funny thing about that incident, Chas, was that the bullets were placed too closely to have been a long range burst.
Hmmm . . . what’s up with that?
Heckler–
When an ignorant unthinking ass calls one an insult, it’s really a compliment.
Thanks for the compliment.
Capn
That’s the Capn we know and love. Your the type who swallows all of the “Winter Soldier” crap that’s fed to you and swallows every gooie drop. You believe terrorists before you believe members of our own military.
And yes that was intended as a backdoor slam at John Kerry.
Heck–
I don’t “believe” terrorists more than “our own military.”
I can see what I see on that video though.
Nathan
If I recall correctly the soldier in that video clip had lost a good friend in previous days to just the same tactic. Detonating a grenade while playing dead. Isnt that correct?
So if my friend gets killed by a right-wing blowhard, I get to shoot you.
Thanks. Got it.
CapnAmerica,
This is my last attempt at reason with you.
It was a common enough practice of the terrorists to conceal explosives on themselves and attempt to detonate them when they are taken prisoner or upon surrender.
Due to this, the Rules of Engagement were stressing that you be aware of this and take all needed actions to defend yourself or fellow Marines.
Regardless of any of these things, it is a Marines right to defend himself if he does feel his life is being threatend.
Here you have someone in the heat of battle, who has lost friends, who has been injured himself, who has been briefed on the enemy using the tactics of pretending to be dead and then trying to detonate an explosive, who was just ordred into a building where enemy activity was seen and then he notices someone who was thought to be dead moving around for something he percieved to be what could be an explosive device.
Tragic? Yes.
Is this Marine some cold blooded killer? Of course not.
Why do you hate the Marines, Sol?Posted by: CapnAmerica | August 15, 2007 at 12:09 PM
WTF?
You blame a Marine for shooting what he thought – and we still don’t know if he was or wasn’t – was a bad guy. Then you blame the Navy for stating so much. Then you ask me why I hate Marines?
WTF is WRONG with you? Seriously, that logic is scary.
This is a perfect example of why we shouldn’t be in any internation criminal court.
People like CapnAmerica would have our soldiers strung up for merely trying to defend themselves in war.
I believe the Capn said upthread that if blame’s to be assigned, then it belongs not on the Marine but on those who sent him there.
See, what nobody’s talking about here is this. THIS is where a lack of accountability leads us. When the administration fails to hold anybody accountable for mistakes made in Iraq — and there were hundreds if not thousands of mistakes — then American citizens are naturally prone to assign accountability on their own.
Bush is directly, and SOLELY, responsible for the feeling most Americans hold, including Capn, that the war is immoral, unjust, filled with corruption and lies, and that there may very well be one or more war crimes involved there.
To be more clear: Bush’s failure to hold those responsible accountable for their mistakes may very well have led to war crimes — real AND imagined.
So if my friend gets killed by a right-wing blowhard, I get to shoot you.
Thanks. Got it.
Posted by: CapnAmerica | August 15, 2007 at 12:39 PM
If said friend was in a combat zone, and said instance happenened in a combat zone, and you are in a combat zone, where split second decisions means the difference between life and death, and said right wing blowhard appears to be following the same script that killed your friend the day before, you might be justified.
Got it.
Holding those responsible for their mistakes is a societal VENT. It allows the bad stuff to leave the body politic.
Believe me, Iraq is a festering miasma sorely in need of some serious venting.
should read “holding those responsible accountable for their mistakes” is a societal VENT.
I’m not blaming the MARINE, Sol.
I keep saying it, but you right-wingers keep wanting to tell me what I believe.
I hate Bush. I think he’s the worst president ever and probably close to the worst president POSSIBLE.
If he were just a little worse, Americans would march on Washington and shut the country down, as apathetic and as a busy ekeing out a living most of us are.
But I don’t blame the Marines or any soldiers for anything that happens in Iraq. It’s not a matter of the “personal responsibility” of the soldier . . . it’s about the policy of this administration that puts our soldiers into this situation.
The soldiers are just doing what soldiers always do.
Thanks, Pedant.
That’s exactly what I meant. Well said.
To quote Frmgirl, “Jesus wept”.
I’m listening to Rush b*tching and moaning that the gov’t is trying to stop parents from smoking around their kids.
“If they can do that, they can tell you what kind of lightbulb to use, what kind of floorboards to use . . . your house won’t be your house anymore.”
Hey, I saw that movie too, Rush. It was in black and white from about 1961, except it was the Communists who had taken a family’s house and forced the kids to wear neckerchifs and join the “young pioneers.”
Holy mackeral, what a nut . . .
According to what is shown on that video, there IS no hostile situation at that point… it is a calm setting… just dead, dying, or wounded laying around… it is the aftermath of some kind of skirmish… The man who was shot did not appear to have anything in his hands…
And as has been pointed out already, just because a similar incident might have happened, on a different day, and different place, is NO excuse to assume that it will happen at this occasion…. There was simply nothing hostile to be seen on this tape, except for an american soldier shooting a man, wounded or not, in cold blood… Could that man not have been a possible witness??? A man who MIGHT have had usable information??? Well, we wont know that now, cause a soldier went and killed him first….
Soldiers are taught to keep their anger out of their work place, just like any other work place… Thats what I have always been told…
Hang in there CapN… I am getting tired of this “defend the military, right or wrong, just cause they are in uniform” junk!
Had to jump in on this discussion when I saw all the comments about Marines (always with a capital “M”).
Have to agree partly with Capn America. The Laws of War say to destroy only what needs to be destroyed to accomplish the mission.
The Marine Rifle Company mission is to locate, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver, or repel the enemy’s assault by fire and close combat.
Anything beyond the mission is a violation of the laws of war. If an innocent is killed – while on target, then that is a casualty of war. If a fire team, squad, platoon, or company of Marines goes beyond that – it is a violation of the UCMJ and should be investigated under art 31.. and if evidence is convincing – prosecuted.
A step further, the “fog of war” is different than a loss of self-control and discipline when angry over the loss of a buddy (no friends, buddies).
Not always a clear and cut issue under these rules. But even if it is BORDERLINE, the services should STILL investigate and prosecute.
Otherwise, we are no better than they are.
Someone mentioned about the Marines in WWII above. Brutal. Probably worse than Vietnam. But that is no excuse for today and it does not justify murder or criminal actions by today’s military. Hopefully, we have all learned somethings. My opinion.
Pedant
That’s right, it’s Bush’s fault….
Therefore it’s reasonable to believe ANY negative thing we hear about our soldiers regardless of the credibility of the source.
Hell we’ve got people that hate Bush so bad that they make shit up and claim that they witnessed it, even participated in it. And people like Capn believe it, because it feeds their hatred of Bush.
Dont ya just love it when Limbaugh whines and moans about HIS government??? the guys and gals HE wanted to run this show?? And now they turn on his tobacco stuff??? So they want to take over your house… ??? I suppose he will ultimately blame it on the Liberals/Left/Democrats…. as usual….
Hell we’ve got people that hate Bush so bad that they make shit up … because it feeds their hatred of Bush.
Posted by: Heckler | August 15, 2007 at 01:04 PM
I don’t think my editing changed your meaning at all.
What you call hatred is what I call the “bad stuff” that needs venting. When a real leader holds those responsible for mistakes accountable for those mistakes, the “bad stuff” leaves the body politic. It’s as if it’s magically attached to the guilty official/politician who leaves the body politic.
We humans just work that way.
I think that one of the things that hasn’t been mentioned here is that this same company of Marines had lost a man because a ‘wounded insugent’ detonated a bomb while surrendering.
It’s very easy to second guess the actions of our armed forces while they are in the heat of battle. It’s shameful to comdemn them without a hearing. It’s unconscionalble to still condemn them after they have been cleared.
Hank
Hank,
Innocent until proven guilty?
It’s the only way to fly.
Guys like Jesse Macbeth, Scott Beauchamp, John Kerry. They make up lies about the terrible things our soldiers do. And they become heroes of the Left in this country. Because the Left so hates the leaders of the military that they are willing to believe any terrible thing that they hear, then they have something to blame on those hated leaders.
Thanks for that clarification, Eagle Beak. Good information there.
Heck–
I don’t need to make sh*t up to hate Bush. Just look at his record: campaigning on working across the aisle and then p*ssing on everyone who disagrees with him, demanding not that the majority be represented in Florida but doing everything to game the system and win, manufacturing stories about the Clinton’s stealing silverware which were widely reported before they were found to be completely false, demanding that Gore join him to set a CO2 cap and then renouncing it after the election, giving massive tax breaks for the rich while saying that it benefits the poor, ignoring the threat of terrorism (that was a “Clinton thing”) until after the very preventable 9-11 attack and then using it to justify an invasion and never-ending invasion of Iraq based on lies.
Worst. Effing. President. Ever.
Hank,
Innocent until proven guilty?
It’s the only way to fly.
Posted by: Eagle Beak | August 15, 2007 at 01:13 PM
Ok so why don’t we send YOU over there and YOU can investigate every person pretending to be dead to make sure they aren’t waiting to detonate a bomb. Outstanding. Hope your life insurance is paid.
Hey, what ever happened to the “support our troops” yellow ribbon car magnets?
“GMC–
The entire war is unjustified, immoral and a war crime.
This is but one example of the system that kills for power.”
*****
But you weren’t speaking of the entire war, you were speaking of the actions of a single Marine, in a particular place, at a particular time. Wanna criticize the war, it’s conduct, etc. Fair enough. But that’s not what this was about, and you know it.
Don’t try to change the subject now.
Pedant
I’m not sure who you refer to when you state ” those responsible for mistakes accountable for those mistakes”.
How many were prosecuted and convicted over Abu Graib? How many have been prosecuted and convicted for murder and similar charges. Quite a fair number.( but not a lot when you consider the number of people we’ve had over there.)
Who are we talking about here?
Hank, I just mentioned that very thing at my 1:04 post… I believe Eagle Beak also mentioned something very close to that…
It doesnt matter what happened in another place, on another day… That is not justification for murder on the day this video was taken… THIS video shows what it shows… What happened BEFORE, is somewhat irrelevant…
Let’s see… Cop pulls up to a Convenience Store… sees a robbery in progress… the week before, one of his fellow officers was shot and killed by a Convenience Store robber… Thus, THIS cop pulls his weapon, and makes fast work on this, different robber… ooops that isnt justifiable, now is it??? Nope Nope… Different circumstance….
Same thing with the soldier….
We cant just go around making up justice that fits what we want it to fit…
So, who should inveestigate this incident? Who will you believe? What are their qualifications? WHat is THEIR agenda?
why don’t we send YOU over there and YOU can investigate every person pretending to be dead to make sure they aren’t waiting to detonate a bomb. Outstanding. Hope your life insurance is paid.
Posted by: SolDevVB
Please Sol, be nice today. I didn’t come here to pick a fight and neither should you. I can’t help it it’s your time of the month. Please don’t take it out on the rest of us.
PS: That was a really stupid post.
And now I am sorry. I lost my self-control.
Pedant
In the case of the Haditha Marines they were held in solitary confinement for what, over a year? And it was thoroughly investigated and they didnt even have enough evidence to hold a court martial.
Yup, you win, GMC.
Every day in every way, Iraq just keeps getting better.
I don’t know why I even try.
Just tell me what to think, GMC, and I’ll aquiesce to your towering intellect.
Because that’s what you’re saying: don’t believe what you see on the damn photographic record, believe what the government tells you.
War is peace.Slavery is freedom.Ignorance is strength.
We have never been at war with Oceania. We have always been at war with Eurasia . . .
L J why do you suppose they have that document called the UCMJ??? Seems to me that those people are quite capable of investigating incidents of that sort…
“Heckler–Of course the Marines were found “not guilty.”
They were tried by the military.”
__________________________________Translation, the Marine was guilty and the military covered for them__________________________________“I saw a soldier gun down a wounded man in mosque on TV. “He’s faking [being dead], he’s faking,” the soldier shouted and plugged the guy with a couple of rounds.”
__________________________________You saw this? Or did you see a video of this. “He’s faking [being dead], he’s faking,” has been pointed out as an enemy tactic. So you would rather have the Marines getting blown up. Again, the Marine’s fault.__________________________________
“To my knowledge, nothing was done about this soldier killing an unarmed seriously wounded civilian who hadn’t even been identified as a combatant.And if the military really wanted to press charges for massacres of civilians, they could start with the pay-back against the city of Fallujah.”
_______________________________More hatred against the military. Really rackin em up Capn._________________________________
They don’t because gunning people down and creating a sense of terror among the citizenry is what this occupation is all about.The Romans used cruxifiction to keep their Empire. We use white phospher bombs and daisy cutters.Same thing.Posted by: CapnAmerica | August 15, 2007 at 11:17 AM
__________________________________Outstanding. Now our military is conjoined with the Romans.__________________________________
It wouldn’t surprise me if a grenade was conveniently planted on the guy after the fact.But the video didn’t show any “explosive device.”
Who are you going to believe–the explanation or your own eyes?
Posted by: CapnAmerica | August 15, 2007 at 11:28 AM
_________________________________OUTFREAKINSTANDING Capn. Now the Marines plant evidence. You just hit 1,000 !!!
__________________________________
Heckle, they might have been told by somebody higher up the food chain to just let it go… dont push it… etc., etc. You know, something like Gonzales or Rove might do… LOL
“What happened BEFORE, is somewhat irrelevant… ”
You have never served a day in your life Chas. You have never been in a combat situation. You are speaking, sir, out of your butt.
L J why do you suppose they have that document called the UCMJ??? Seems to me that those people are quite capable of investigating incidents of that sort…
Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:24 P
Umm, according to CapnAmerica, they are not. So, in the interest of fairness, I ask who?
Well, then, maybe an international war crimes tribunal of some kind???
Chas,
Police actions are hardly comparable to military actions in war time.
The Marine was investigated and cleared.
And then, just maybe the CapN and I dont agree on EVerything… I mean, we arent Georgie Boy and Karl… LOL
I keep seeing people belittle the UCMJ and the military justice system.
I have yet to see any one of you offer any shred of evidence to support your claims.
Anyone?
Yeah yeah yeah!!! Like the UN because they are SOOOO fair and balanced.
“Well, then, maybe an international war crimes tribunal of some kind???Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:28 PM “
nathan, whether its a cop who loses his buddy, or the marine who lost his buddy, the ANGER question is still the same… and the stupidity of transferring one situation into a totally different one, is still the same… and I wouldnt tell a lot of City Police that they arent in a war zone, if I was you…
Okay, Sol, I’ll give that one to you. That was out of line on my part and I regret posting it.
However, the private contractors apparently have been known to do this.
Sol… WHERE do you see my post saying ANYTHING about the U.N.???
I said an international war crimes tribunal… and YOU go off half cocked on the U.N. Come on, now…. at least read what is written, instead of reading something into it that tilts your whirl….
“Yup, you win, GMC. Just tell me what to think, GMC, and I’ll aquiesce to your toweringintellect.”
Appreciate that you finally understand . . . ;-)
I’ll remind your smart-ass self, however, that it was YOU who claimed to know better than the investigators, the ballistics tests, the interviews, YOU who claimed to know better than those WHO WERE THERE.
Now tell me who’s being self-rightously arrogant?
Let me help. In this instance, that would be you.
SOL, I am just as much of a citizen as anybody who has served 30 years… And my opinion is just as valid as anybody else’s… Now, if you want to challenge that, then you sir, live in the wrong country….
Well, then, maybe an international war crimes tribunal of some kind???
Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:28
You mean, like the UN Human rights commision?
http://www.ohchr.org/english/bodies/chr/docs/62chr/2006members.doc\
I don;t think so. Not now, not ever
Outstanding Capn. One of the few people I have EVER seen here admit. Outstanding.
L J — one more time with FEELING…. I never mentioned the U.N. not even ONCE!! Stop putting words in other folks’ posts… OK???
Nathan, I DID say we have a UCMJ to cover incidents like this one, or Haditha… So, what’s your point???
L J — one more time with FEELING…. I never mentioned the U.N. not even ONCE!! Stop putting words in other folks’ posts… OK???
Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:
What the hell are you talking about?I never put words in anybodys mouth! (er keyboard, er??) I said, once more for clarity
“You mean LIKE the human rights commission?
My point being that International tribunals do not necessarily have the best interests of the United States, or their supposed constituents in mind. You are the one that suggested an international tribunal. Gad
believe what the government tells you.
War is peace.Slavery is freedom.Ignorance is strength.
We have never been at war with Oceania. We have always been at war with Eurasia . . .
Posted by: CapnAmerica | August 15, 2007 at 01:23 PM
Capn, I thought you wanted more Big Government, not less?
“stupidity of transferring one situation into a totally different one,”It is a pattern of practice Chas.If you step on a rake and the handle flies up and hits you in the face, exactly how many more times does that have to happen in order for you to learn?
“international war crimes tribunal”Do some research chas.
SOL, I am just as much of a citizen as anybody who has served 30 years… And my opinion is just as valid as anybody else’s… Now, if you want to challenge that, then you sir, live in the wrong country….Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:33 PMUhm, no, its not. You have zero understanding of the rules of engagement. You have zero understanding of ground operations in Iraq. Do you, sir, also fancy yourself a brain surgeon? Don’t tell someone what their job is and what the rules are when you have zero understanding.
Max–
I’m not sure what you’re asking.
In some situations, I DO want more gov’t. In others, I want less.
Kinda like the police. When I have a prowler around my house, I want them.
When I’m driving down the street minding my own business, I don’t want them pulling me over because tail light is burned out.
Well, Sol, maybe you need to either 1) read the Constitution, or 2) find another country… In this country, we take pride in the fact that our Military is run by NON-military personnel… and our sitting President is NOT a military officer… maybe a retired one like Ike… but not while in the White House… There is a good reason for that…
And, excuse me, I dont need to know ground operations, to see a cold blooded murder on a video tape… I dont think anybody does… Now, the military can cover it up any old way they want, and they will when they want to… but that doesnt make my opinion of it any less important… doesnt make my opinion right… but it doesnt make it any less valid…
Maybe some common ground though, is a lack of trust in the Government – no matter which political party is in control?
You might just be on to something there, Max…
“And, excuse me, I dont need to know ground operations, to see a cold blooded murder on a video tape… I dont think anybody does… Now, the military can cover it up any old way they want, and they will when they want to… but that doesnt make my opinion of it any less important… doesnt make my opinion right… but it doesnt make it any less valid…”
A cold blooded murder. You have tried and convicted the Marine based solely on a video clip. How American of you.
The Military can cover it up… they EXPOSED it and gave the explanation. But you scream conspiracy!! Cover up!!! Again. How American of you. Guilty even when proven innocent.“but that doesnt make my opinion of it any less important… doesnt make my opinion right… but it doesnt make it any less valid…”Ya got me on that one. Just an uninformed knee jerk opinion. Score one Cahs.
According to the way the military tackled that shooting, in a Mosque… The military wouldnt have ever put O.J. on trial, but the nut jobs of the nation had him guilty, and half executed before the trial ever started… Amazing what happens when you put a uniform on it…
So Chas,
which is it? Is it:
J why do you suppose they have that document called the UCMJ??? Seems to me that those people are quite capable of investigating incidents of that sort…
Posted by: Chas. | August 15, 2007 at 01:24 P
or is it
According to the way the military tackled that shooting, in a Mosque… The military wouldnt have ever put O.J. on trial,
I think it’s very difficult to judge from 8,000 miles away what these guys in combat are going through. They are doing a very difficult job that 99.7% of us are not doing today, and 90% of us have never done.
In combat situations when the bullets and bombs are flying your way, mistakes will be made. Deadly mistakes are made in every war.
Do you really want to put those in combat in war crimes trials every time what appears to be a civilian is killed?
Then, if you are going to round up and try US Marines, are you also going to round up civilians in every neighborhood where an IUD blows up and try them too?
Chas,
It was hardly a cold blooded murder.
You really have no idea what you are talking about.
Actually, you do. You are purposefully being inflamatory and accusing our troops of crimes you know they didn’t committ.
Cold Blooded murder involves premeditation and malace aforethought.
Yet you choose to say that is what this Marine did?
You have no basis for such claims other than to display your own ignorance.
People have no respect for our troops.
People like Chas and CapnAmerica will demean and attack our Marines like this?
How low can you get. We put our lives on the line to fight a war and do what we can to both destroy the enemy and protect life. Just to have a bunch of arrogant know it alls who watch youtube think they know what war is all about or what really happens.
People like that know nothing of Honor, Courage, or Committment.
Nathan, I think the majority of America, the conservative grassroots, supports what you and the rest of our troops have done for us.
The mass Liberal media and some Libs will always be there as dissenters, not realizing how/why they are able to freely do so.
Thanks Nathan.
I was in smokers lounge in the Atlanta airport a couple of weeks ago, and there were dozens of men and women in uniform flying to Frankfurt, enroute to the Mid East. Very somber yet dedicated group.
It was an honor to be in the same room with them.
hmmm….in today’s Parson’s Sun
TOPEKA – Seven years enduring chemotherapy turned former Kansas Attorney General Bob Stephan into an advocate for legalized medical marijuana.
Stephan said Tuesday that he’s long called for doctors to have the right to prescribe marijuana for patients with cancer or other diseases to alleviate pain and nausea from chemotherapy.
“In the early 80s, I was involved in the effort and here I am again.”
The state’s longest-running chief attorney, Stephan retired in 1995 but has remained active in public affairs, including his plans to join a Friday press conference urging the Legislature to approve the use of marijuana in certain medical cases.
He specified that it should be prescribed only if other drugs have failed.
Twelve states currently have some form of law allowing use of medical marijuana. California was the first to approve and New Mexico was the latest, where legislators passed a new law this spring.
Opponents of such measures often say they send the wrong message to young people because it involves an otherwise illegal drug.
“That is just an appalling, illogical argument,” said Dan Bernath, assistant communications director at the Marijuana Policy Project in Washington, D.C. “It’s important for us as adults to teach children that medicine is for sick people and that medical marijuana is no different.”
Stephan, who is now in private practice, said that at Friday’s 11 a.m. press conference he’d have more specifics on the issue.
The Kansas Compassionate Care Coalition, a group with chapters in northeast Kansas and Wichita, is holding the event.
“I know what it’s like when you can’t find anything to alleviate nausea that’s endured for that period of time,” Stephan said of his battle with cancer. “I’ve talked to thousands of patients through the years about it. If there’s a way to take away from that suffering, we ought to use it.”
Current Kansas Attorney General Paul Morrison deferred to lawmakers when asked his opinion on the issue Tuesday.
“This is a public policy issue determined by the Legislature,” said Morrison spokeswoman Frances Gorman.
Senate Public Health Chairman Jim Barnett, R-Emporia, said he wasn’t familiar with the coalition’s campaign.
Barnett, a physician, said two prescription drugs, known as cannabinoid medicines, that are marijuana-based and federally approved – Marinol and Cesamet – are now available in pill form to cancer patients facing nausea and vomiting from chemotherapy.
While Bernath said that’s a good thing, he said some patients wait 45 minutes for the synthesized drugs to take effect. Smoking marijuana can offer almost instant relief from nausea, he said, making it preferable for some patients who can’t keep from vomiting pills.
Laura Green, director of the Kansas coalition, said the last time the Kansas Legislature took up a bill on the issue was in 1995. It failed in conference committee.
Green hopes people are more receptive today to the concept of using marijuana, or the cannabis plant, to ease pain in the terminally ill.
“I think that people are not as hysterical about the word today,” she said. “That’s because about 13,000 Kansans were diagnosed with cancer in 2004 alone. People realize that their loved ones, family members and friends shouldn’t suffer needlessly.”
Current law in Kansas prescribes a year in jail and a fine of $2,500 for the misdemeanor of marijuana possession. The second conviction is a felony punishable by up to 42 months in jail and a $100,000 fine.
Cultivation of more than four marijuana plants, including for medical purposes, is a felony worth 11 to 17 years in prison.
Green, whose organization is relatively new, hopes with Stephan’s support that more Kansans will speak out in favor of a law change. Some of the 400 members in the group aren’t willing to publicize their names for fear of retribution.
“Honestly,” she said, “we’re just starting to get the debate going.”
Amazingly, America’s abortion industry now claims the federal partial birth abortion ban is causing havoc, whereas before the claim was that the number of this type of brutal killings was negligibly small. And now late-term abortionist quacks claim they are forced into dangerous late-term lethal injection killings of babies, using digoxin (in off-label use, a favorite Tiller method) or potassium chloride poisons, to avoid possible accusations of partial birth abortion, whereas before the claim was that legal abortions are the safest surgical procedure ever.In Kansas, except for the 31 merciful days this summer, while Tiller’s unsafe, blood-spattered aborton mill is shut down, late-term abortions are not safe, not legal, and not rare.Baby Killer Tiller’s staff is quitting now, probably for good. Keep a good thought.
WichiWomn – I hope it passes. But I believe it should be legal, period.
Nathan I was in the armed forces many many years ago. And I believe there are many people that feel the way I do, when I say; Our country is the greatest country in the world and we would not have it if it wasn’t for dedicated soldiers such as yourself. Many brave, decent people had to do ugly things that would make the weaker of the herd (such as capn america and chas) sick and possibly insane. You and such like you have the grit and fortitude that the weaker, although undeserving , need. Without it they would perish. You protect them, along with the woman and children.
“Barnett, a physician, said two prescription drugs, known as cannabinoid medicines, that are marijuana-based and federally approved – Marinol and Cesamet – are now available in pill form to cancer patients facing nausea and vomiting from chemotherapy.”
Yeah, giving pills to people who are vomiting is _such_ an effective means of treatment.
Who gave this guy a license to practice medicine???
Who gave this guy a license to practice medicine???
Posted by: Tom | August 15, 2007 at 04:04 PM
I don;t get what you mean.
he also said:
“While Bernath said that’s a good thing, he said some patients wait 45 minutes for the synthesized drugs to take effect. Smoking marijuana can offer almost instant relief from nausea, he said, making it preferable for some patients who can’t keep from vomiting pills.”
i am familiar with patiens that are taken one or the other. It does give them relief, and it is legal. Why wouild you question is medical ability?
Littlejohn,
I’ve known people being given chemo, or treated for HIV/AIDS, who can’t keep _anything_ down, not even anti-nausea pills. The only way to get them medicine is IV, and that has to be done either in a hospital setting, or by a nurse on home-duty.
Because we invaded Iraq, we are making new enemies faster than we can kill them.
TDTI totally agree.
Tom, like you I have had friends with either HIV/AIDS, cancer, or glaucoma. I’ve even known women to use it for menstrual cramps. They had to resort to using it illegally to obtain relief. Sad that there’s such hysteria over something that does more good than harm either way.
btw…haven’t seen KFG lately…she doing ok?
Wichi,
Farmgrrl is well; I spoke to her recently. She’s pretty busy with pesky “real world” stuff.
Having served as a combat Marine myself many years ago, I have nothing but sympathy for this young Marine who shot an Iraqi.
In a combat situation, does nobody find it suspicious that the Iraqi was “playing dead”? The proper action on his part would have been to put his hands up and surrendered, or made at least some noise and gesture to indicate that his status was something other than combatant. Trying to trick a bunch of Marines in a situation like this is a very good way to get shot.
Maybe that young Marine made a bad call, maybe not. But in a situation like that, one wrong guess could be your last.
Nathan, you can think whatever of me you want, but when that video tape clearly shows an american soldier walk up to a guy laying on the floor of that Mosque (church) and fire two bullets into him… and then YOU say that is not murder, just what the hell do you call it???
It wasnt a battle…. nobody was fighting back…. There was no resistance from anybody in that building on the tape…. And yet, one of our soldiers, and I really dont care WHAT branch of the service…. One of our own people walks up to this man laying on that floor, and SHOOTS HIM TWICE!!!
And you want to call that an act of WAR??? But, yet, when the insurgents or Taliban do it to OUR people, you call it EVIL???
Somehow, I think maybe YOU are the one who has your wires crossed here…. I think they are BOTH called MURDER…. and I dont think any the less of our military…. just the Brass that allow this kind of thing to go un-punished, and found to be acceptable!!!
Now, I dont think I can say it much more clearly than that!!
And dont you EVEN call me Unamerican, or Anti-troops… or any of your other Right Wing Bull S**T garbage that I am sick and tired of hearing for the whole duration of a War I dont think (and neither do 66% of other Americans – or more) we should even BE IN!!!
Am I a paccifist??? YEP… but I am a damned patriotic one…. Because the best way this nation has of being the best we can be, is by NOT invading other soverign nations, and by helping where help is needed… NOT by invading forces, but by food, and shelter, and medicines, and help for HIV/AIDS patients, and a myriad of things that we were ONCE KNOWN FOR DOING in this world, that MADE us a great nation!!!
Nuff said…. not gonna say ANY more
If an American brand like Mattel is importing dangerous goods, just think what the Walmart brand must be like! Wake up America, you sometimes get what you pay for. It may be too late, as most goods are made in China now, thanks to Wally World and greedy corporate America.
It’s a Chinese Communist plot to dumb down American children. Feed American children lead toys!
It’s been going on for two decades now, and the effects are starting to show.
Chas,
Ok. I won’t call you any names.
I think it is obvious that you:
-don’t know what murder is.
-don’t know what ROE are.
-don’t know what the Laws of War are
-don’t know what the common enemy Tactics were during that time
-don’t know what the Marines SOP was at that time
-don’t seem to know the conditions of the Battle which was taking place at the time
-don’t know what had just happened before that Marine had entered the building
-are saying that the Military investigators are all wrong.
-are saying that you know what this Marine did
all this from watching a clip on youtube.
Wow.
No names needed. Your ignorance speaks for it’s self.
You know nothing of Honor, Courage, or Committment.
Those first three, Nathan, fit your Commander in Chief to a “t”.
A typical Moony Times editorial.
No mention anywhere that the correction was to ONLY the U.S. (48 states) data.
No mention that the GLOBAL warming trend is virtually unchanged. The issue is global warming, not U.S. warming.
And the 1934 and 1998 corrections = only 0.03 deg C.
Three one-HUNDREDTHS does not = “TENTHS”.
‘The hottest year: 1934?’ (emphasis added)http://washingtontimes.com/article/20070815/EDITORIAL/108150004/1013“Now, citing corrections of faulty data, NASA says it was actually 1934. The National Climactic Data Center disagrees; it still says 1998.
The differences are a matter of TENTHS of a degree Celsius, which might seem to diminish the significance of the corrections. Except that unusually warm years in the 1920s, 1930s and 1950s are themselves only a few tenths of a degree Celsius away from the purportedly dangerous hot temperatures of the present.”
Except the present warming is GLOBAL, not just the U.S.
And about 0.6 degs C. warmer compared to the 1930’s.http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/graphs/Fig.A2_lrg.gif
Most of the global warming is at the northern latitudes.
Since the solid science can’t be refuted, they use deceptions, and lies.
Chas,
I am glad not all and for heavens sake not the majority of americans think like you. You are uneducated in the topic of war. This is not as uncommon as you might think. Is it hard to look at? Yes, war is very ugly. It takes grit, courage and honor. As a veteran I find it an honor to have served my country, and as any veteran I would gladly die for my country. When we are placed in a situation where we have to do something as ugly as kill, we do not like it but we have to do it. I am thankful that the media does not get their hands on more video, that people such as yourself can see.
When the Armed forces go to war they have a tough job to do. they have protected our women, children, and men like you for many years, and it took more than just food and blankets. Sometimes it takes a bullet. If it could be done with just food and blankets belive me our soldiers would do it. Nobody likes to get shot at.
When we are placed in a situation where we have to do something as ugly as kill, we do not like it but we have to do it.Posted by: Still disgruntled| August 15, 2007 at 05:08 PM
Still disgruntled,
You said “have to” twice in that sentence. Here’s the thing: We did not HAVE TO fight this war in Iraq. This was a war of choice – a choice made by George W. Bush. On his part, there is no “have to,” there’s only a “want to.”
Tom,
I wonder if you would have thought the same way had you lost a loved one in the twin towers. And yes Iraq is directly related to that.How strong would they be right now if we hadnt removed them from their place of power?
And by the way soldiers consider it an honor to put their whole lives on hold and put themselves in harms way to protect you. Even when you snivel and whine and condemn them for doing it.
If everyone thought like you we would be typing in japanese right now. you ungrateful weasely little b***h.
Still disgruntled,
Thank you very much for your deeply personal, ad hominem attack. Your words have reached me in ways those of few others truly can. I will sleep more soundly at night now, knowing that you are here, twisting people’s words, making up bullshit they didn’t say, and demeaning them for having the _audacity_ to have an opinion different from yours.
Again, thank you.
Tom,
Every war is a war of choice.
You either choose to go to war or you don’t.
What a platitude.
nathan
is there anything in your feeble mind besides the marines, your sky-god and his storybook, guns and more testosterone marine drivel?
Tom,
You are wrong it is a have to. If we didnt our beloved country would be in danger. This is not an opinion it is a fact. That attack that happened on 9-11 would have been the first of many. Nobody likes to go to war. Why do people like you think that?
Zionism reminds me of a child waving a loaded gun.
The Likud Party must have a death wish, or some need to self destruct.
Or summon the wrath of God.
Nathan,
Japan declared war on the United States. Germany declared war on the United States. The United States went to war with those two powers only after they had declared war on the US, and attacked us.
The choice then was either war, or surrender. Our national survival was at stake.
That is not, and has never been, the choice facing the United States in Iraq. Iraq did not attack the United States. The only “attacks” on US military personnel were against US warplanes flying over Iraqi territory.
None of the 9/11 terrorists were from Iraq. Iraq did not provide them with material support. The case for WMDs in Iraq was overstated, both by Saddam Hussein and our own intelligence services. The intelligence was cherry-picked by Bush and his administration in their rush to get this nation into a war we have no business being in.
This is a war of choice. _Not_ national survival.
If you got shot at would you do something about it (even if it was run away) or would you wait to get shot again?
Blaidd_drwg,
You sound familiar.
Steven is that you?
I’m flattered nathan that you would think I’m a RW nemesis like Steven Davis.
Any way you cut it boy, you are one mentally deranged individuals. Isn’t it time for you and your daddy to go out and go some “shootin’” to the glory of your sky-god?
Still disgruntled,
Iraq was not involved in 9/11. Period. Even your President has said so. Repeatedly.
Hmmm…
There are only two people who follow me around to say deragatory comments.
That would be WS Clark and Steven Davis aka DarwinsDisciple.
I know kanasfarmgirl says mean things about me, but usually not following me around like your style…
I don’t fault the soldier who shot the man on the floor. I think it is unfortunate. Many times we hear of people who played dead to save their lives. The soldier had no way of knowing if it was a setup, or if this man was sincerely just trying to save his skin, and in that split second, chose not to take any chances.
Iraq was not involved in 9/11, I guess ex soldier only must listen to Fox news.
sorry marine-boy, I’m neither SD or WSClark, I’m just myself. I love to expose extremists like you.
Tom,
I have to go but I want to make one last remark before i do. It is to say Thank You.
Until now I always thought Saddam Hussein was the bad guy. I see now that he is an innocent little angel and we are the bad guys for picking on him and bullying him around.
How do you call yourself an American?
That’s right Tom, how DARE you question the actions of your president!
I think the disgruntled guy who claims to be American, seems to think he fought for fascism instead of discourse.
What American values do you see exactly?
disgruntled – ComCare can help you.
blaidd_drwg,
Whatever then. Continue.
Nathan, I have never been in the military, and I thank God nobody in my famiy have been since WW II… I know that we need to have a military… But I dont think it should be prostituted the way Bush is doing to this military now… We have NO MORE reason to be in Iraq, than the man in the moon…. The people who attacked us on 9/11 didnt come FROM Iraq, and didnt run away TO Iraq – oh yea, they died in the plane crashes too… The masterminds didnt come from Iraq… This whole war has been one error after another… And to watch you type out your justifications for Killing somebody in the fashion of You Tube, or Their Tube, or ANY other Tube, is just down right sickening!!! I WAS looking forward to dinner… But the way you DEVOUR the idea of killing people YOU see as enemies…. Makes me wonder what you might do to Americans that you disagree with, if push came to shove… especially if it involved your precious damned UNIform!!! It’s not the military I dislike… It’s just some of the little hot heads that wear the colors!!
“That would be WS Clark and Steven Davis aka DarwinsDisciple.”
You’re wrong. I avoid you like the plague.
I was honored to be compared to you SD, Nathan pees in his marine-boy boots when you address him.
“I’m flattered nathan that you would think I’m a RW nemesis like Steven Davis.”
blaidd_drwg:
You give me waaayyy too much credit, but thanks anyway.
Anything to screw with nathan’s weak, RW deluded mind!
BD, Steven may be a nemesis but with the exception of a rare tirade, he is one of the more cerebral and reasonable.
You should emulate him in that regard.
outlander and I rarely see things in the same way, but I respect him – even when he is wrong.
“I was honored to be compared to you SD, Nathan pees in his marine-boy boots when you address him.”
No, I don’t think does. Nor would I want him to. He was insulting me the other day calling me an “old man”. It is sad that is the best he could come up with, since it is true, I am moving past middle age in a less than graceful way.
Hey, folks, take a look, they’re getting it right this time!:
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/u_s_to_re_hang_saddam_hussein
Today started off normal then I mentioned Blogging to someone in the store and they thought I said “Clogging.”
One thing led to another and I couldn’t resist the temptation to make a Video Carton.
This video is dedicated to the WE Blog Staff.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Lbmz8jJDw9Q
Cast:
Lou Heldman – FootstoolPhillip Brownlee…GuitarRhonda Holman…PianoRandy Scholfield…Upright Bass FiddleRichard Crowson…”Hmmm, not sure.”Dave Knadler…Hoofer and Step Dancer
And who is that “Double Eagle” Guy?
Sorry, some days one just has to be silly.
Pardon my amateur cartoon and video skills. :)
ATTENTION!
ATTENTION!
WARNING TO THOSE WHO LIVE ON THE GULF COAST!
Tropical Storm Dean was reported today to be almost certain to enter the Gulf of Mexico. It’s predicted to be a Cat 4 Hurricane in 5 days.
ATTN: MAYOR NAGIN AND NEW ORLEANS
So New Orleans, since you failed to take heed last time, you may be stupid again so make sure you:
1. Find your disaster plan.2. Dust it off.3. Read it.4. Understand it.5. Know how to implement it.6. Communicate the potential threat NOW and tell people what they need to be prepared to do. Go out and hold their hand if necessary.7. Get your bus drivers ready to use your buses this time. Tell 3 times what they need to do.8. Get your cops ready.9. Ask your Governor to be ready to help NOW! You may need the National Guard to maintain an orderly evacuation, and force stupid people to leave, if necessary.
YOU HAVE YOUR WARNING NOW on AUGUST 16, 2007.
T-minus 5+ days and counting.
Oh, and Prez Bush, go ask the Governor now for authority to bring in US Troops if/when needed.
Remember, you need the Governor’s permission to do this so that you do not violate the Federal Law prohibiting your use of Federal Troops in any civil action in any State.
Pray Nagin, pray that your chocolate city is saved this time.
carton = cartoon long day…
CORRECTION, the above warning is being provided on AUGUST 15, 2007.
But Nagin, you probably won’t get out of the bars until tomorrow anyway, so you won’t see this HURRICANE ALERT until 8/16/07.
Have a safe and happy week!
Hurricane Dean? Yaaaaahhhrgh!
Yeeeehaaaaaaa!!!!!
Nah, man, we ain’t gotta worry about no hurricane hitting New Orleans for a long time.
We gots lotsa time to get ready.
Right now, we be partying big time in da French Quarter. Woman shakin around their big you know whats!
Tell me if and when it’s already here, then I’ll think about it, maybe, if I ain’t too busy.
Amusing cartoon Kansas. I think the editors will get a chuckle.
“Sorry, some days one just has to be silly.”
Silly works for me.
Don’t flatter yourself, Nathan. I don’t follow you around and could truly care less about you. I find you to be a despicable human being and a sorry excuse for a Christian, but I have no desire to engage you in any way, shape or form.
I am only responding here because YOU used my name. Other than that, you are meaningless.
If your tongue was on fire, Nathan, I would not walk across the street to piss in your mouth and save your life.
Did you hear the national news last night? Brian Williams? He announced, “Our nation has two dangerous hurricanes”.
Funny, only one exists.
But the newwwwwwwws service has to make it sound so ominous.
Plus, they have to make up for the BS on global warming and the prediction for MANY hurricanes this season.
They have been disappointed.
But now the stories will follow, “Hurricane is evidence of GW!” Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww. Scare me.
It’s all BS to cover for the dog days of reporting. They still aren’t reporting up front and personal from the new front in Afghan.
But we go those TWO BIG HURRICANES………………..
Wow…
I seem to have quite the fan club.
XXX–
The proper action on his part would have been to put his hands up and surrendered, or made at least some noise and gesture to indicate that his status was something other than combatant.
Good idea, but why assume he could do that? The guy may not have even been conscious.
Nathan’s link said the body had three other bullets in it that weren’t fired from the marine’s rifle.
In other words, the guy was shot up pretty bad, probably had lost blood.
Maybe he would have died anyway.
Problem is that innocent people always get killed in war. That’s why they call it war.
You wouldn’t want to go to war unless you absolutely had to.
In Iraq, we didn’t have to.
Doubting Thomas, is not Hawaii a part of our nation?
Rage
Lets change their name from “terrorist” to “silly”
A war on “Silly” makes good sense.
{ better describes the thinking process }
Doubting Thomas,
What do hurricane forecasters predict, (assuming wind shear, etc remain constant) when a storm moves into an area of warmer sea surface temperatures??
There is more global warming in the future, EVEN if we stabilized todays (rising) greenhouse gas levels. The oceans are delaying the warming.
btw: even tropical storm Erin could cause flooding problems in TX — they’ve had unusually heavy rains recently.
Rage, man, you’re too much:
“In the event that the execution fails to create the desired positive effect, authorities said they would not rule out hanging Hussein a third or even a fourth time, if necessary.”
http://www.theonion.com/content/news/u_s_to_re_hang_saddam_hussein
The corpse of Saddam should be given a well-deserved rest.
Wow, Chas, capn and some other libs are really showing their true colors, typical.
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