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Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted Aug. 6, 2007 at 1:00 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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15 Comments
There was some serious discussion brought to the City Council in regards to passenger rail service to Wichita from the Heartland Flyer Train that now connects FT. Worth to OKC.
Now that Cox Communications is moving from the once train station, it could be very well be feasible to have passenger rail service again.
While it will take government funds to start-up and cover the operation cost, it is not currently not legal in the state of Kansas to do so. Kansas law states that they cannot use State Funds to operate passenger rail service. This of course is an old law in the books derived from the days when passenger rail service was the norm.
It’s still up to debate to see if this is economically feasible and if it can generate passenger use. The advocates say that it can be profitable, but passenger rail service now is not profitable. The Heartland Flyer serving OKC and Ft. Worth doesn’t generate the passenger numbers to even come close and those are larger markets.
As Mayor Brewer pointed out in the discussion. We need to know what the cost really would be to operate it. Would it be a good idea to subsidize a passenger rail train that would cost more than the State’s Fair Fares program, but serve a whole hell lot less people.
The Heartland Flyer from OKC to Ft. Worth serves 58,000 a year between those two large markets. Airtran in Wichita did 157,000.
Bang for the Buck or people just looking for government to pay for nostalgia. The Heartland Flyer in Wichita would have very low numbers.
The City of Houston, one of the largest cities in America has an Amtrak station. Passenger numbers in 2006: 10,855.
Something to think about. But we need a very long look at passenger rail service. It deserves attention, but it does deserve some scrutiny.
Agreed Joe. Think of having good rail service to KC, OkC, maybe Denver. Then, ‘from there you can fly anywhere’.
I have long maintained that rail service can be a major part of a solution to congestion in our ‘mega-airports’ like O’Hare, Atlanta, San Francisco. Replace short flights with rail out to about 250 miles or so.
In our case that would put Wichita in a ‘local service area’ of several large airports.
Then, add to that the possibility of coast-to-coast and border-to-border rail tours.
I got all over Europe by rail. True, distances are smaller there but why not have that as at least a serious option here?
Ben! The only way that can work if the rail trains actually go to the airports. In Europe they do, but in America they don’t.
Because during the early days of air travel, they competed with train service, and therefore they never developed the relationship to each other.
Europe did though.
But you have to convince airlines that passenger rail service will help them. If not, they will feel like it’s competitive with them, and therefore their interest will convince law makers that it’s a bad idea.
Yes Joe! That would obviously have to be part of the picture. Then I can also take transit into the City.
I think the opportunity mght come with airports like SFO. There is talk about building a new airport down in San Benito County; there is also a lot of opposition there. If instead they improved rail service throughout CA centered on SFO, LAX, etc they might be able to avoid that.
Similar around other big grid-locked airports. Wichita’s hope would then be that KCI is one of them. Then replace the Airtran deal (which goes where many of us don’t go) with easy access to KCI (from which flights do go).
Well. I would have to disagree with you Ben. I think it’s much more important to pump the airport in Wichita up. Rather than rely on a passenger wheel and spoke system.
It’s too expensive the other way around. And it doesn’t make sense for a community our size to be shut out of having a passenger airport.
To be quite honest. It just doesn’t make economic sense.
Joe, you’ll first have to make an argument as to why the government should be doing any of these things.
The only way we can know if things make “economic sense” is to let people decide through markets, rather than the government deciding for us, and enforcing its decision through coercion.
But I can see how you fail to understand this. If you are willing to use government coercion to build an entertainment facility, why not go for the whole enchilada?
Problem is, when we have to give massive subsidies to ONE airline flying east it leaves the rest of us paying both high fares and the taxes to subsidize. You have a situation where it is the government picking winners and losers instead of the marketplace.
Right now we have large subsidies for Airtran going east and a small one for Frontier to Denver. I’m going to Montreal. To Chicago. To San Jose. While that last one might be helped with frontier to Denver it still looks like the drive to KCI.
Now, if instead of subsidizing Airtran to Atlanta we had followed a recommendation to subsidize then Wichita-based Air Midwest as a shuttle to KCI we would still have it Wichita-based and we could fly anywhere.
I have called AirTran several times for flight information and these people are he rudest I’ve encountered. There are listings on their website of direct flights and when I wanted to book a flight, the representative actually stated ‘just because it is on the website does not mean we fly there’.
What kind of customer service is that and why is Wichita is subsidizing this?
kate – I have heard the same thing about Airtran. Makes you wonder … DMV anyone?
Joe, I suggest that there’s not sufficient market to “pump” the local airport up for the goal of more flights and lower fares. For our family, the subsidy to AirTran has worked, given the younger’s attendance of college in Maine. I know it hasn’t worked for all, and the fares on the routes not served by AirTran reflect, I think, what the total situation here would be without the subsidy to AirTran (and to Frontier). In other words, I don’t see the airlines abandoning the spoke and hub model, and I don’t see how Wichita can escape subsidization of airlines to have at least some lower fares.
I don’t deal direct with AirTran in person, only use their website when booking flights. So, I cannot comment on kate’s experience.
Ben, I agree with you on the lost opportunity for subsidization of Air Midwest. This is analogous, I believe, to what Des Moines, Iowa did in its attempt to combat high airfares. Seems to me too many local egos were bruised by this approach.
VT – I would add a sort of snobbery by many locals against propellers. I flew their connector when I wend to Myrtle Beach many years ago (under the name USAir) and found it fine. Boring perhaps but so what? It got me there.
If you are going to do a system like this, it would be best to choose another airport besides MCI. To be frank, KC’s Airport is quite small and even isn’t a truly International Airport and even the FAA calls it a medium-size airport. (Trivia Pursuit Question: It was almost named Mid-Continent.)
Kansas City should be training their people as well, according to your standards.
If you were to train people to a particular airport, it’s best to focus on either DFW or DIA.
Trouble with those is that unless we had true high-speed trains the travel time to DFW or DIA would be too long. Basically what I am looking at is to build spokes into large AND mis-sized airports. I’m looking at 2 hours max land travel time.
In the midwest perhaps KC, StLouis, Denver of course, OkC, somewhere in Iowa, Twin Cities.
Years ago I think we missed an opportunity at Mid-C. After the merger of USAir and PSA I noticed that they had ’spiders’ both east and west but nothing in the middle to connect them. USAir has its hubs in smaller airports instead of the huge ones.
I said we should send them a specifications sheet and 365 weather reports. Mid-Continent is rarely closed due to weather. I think it consistently outperforms its peers in that regard. Thonk of Mid-C as the way station for transfers from flights east and west. Then, wherever we want to go we hop on.
That would have made Mid-C a hub.
Well what really makes an airport a hub is that a legacy airlines or even regionals make that airport a hub. If the airline fails or pulls stakes, that airport stops being a hub.
KC and St. Louis were growing into hubs, because of TWA, but once TWA went under, it’s gone.
Pittsburg used to be a very large hub, for USAirways, but they left. Now! Pittsburg has this very large billion dollar airport and it’s very empty. Their passengership drop more than half, their flights drops more than half, and their destination cities went from 103 cities down to 28. They went from 400 daily flights down to 80. They predicted that Pittsburg lost 17,000 jobs as a result of USAirways pulling stakes and leaving.
Now they are faced with an issue we are. They have an estimate that more than 700,000 people in the Pittsburg area drive to Cleavland (a three hour drive) instead to take advantage of cheaper flights and more destinations.
Now Pittsburg is a major American city. It wasn’t the city, it’s the airport and the airline hub.
MCI isn’t a hub like Denver and Dallas is. Unless MCI ramps up and becomes a airline hub, it’s not a good option for training people.
Citizen Academy Class !
“City of Wichita officials are seeking applicants for the upcoming Citizens Academy class, an eight–week program that educates participants about City operations, with the goal of developing citizen leaders.
If you want to participate in the free program, please apply by Friday, August 24. Applications are available by calling 303-8007 or at http://www.wichita.gov. The fall academy will take place from 6:30 to 9:30 PM on Tuesday evenings, Sept. 4 through Nov. 6, at various city facilities.
Citizens Academy includes presentations on City departments and tours of City facilities.
“Graduates gain a greater knowledge of government affairs and will also become more effective citizen leaders,” said Kelli Glassman, a Neighborhood Assistant who helps coordinate the program. “The City of Wichita is looking for people who want to take an active role in local government and make a difference in the community.”
For more information, contact Glassman at Stanley/Aley Neighborhood City Hall or 303-8007.