Comparisons of the debt loads of 2006 graduates of five Kansas state universities found that those from Wichita State had the biggest bills to pay off: an average $21,368, up from an average $18,510 for 2004 grads, according to Harris News Service. That compares with an average $19,203 debt load at the University of Kansas and $19,000 at Kansas State University. Tuition is higher at those schools, so it’s a concern that WSU’s grads are paying less but apparently owing more.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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48 Comments
A college education at a public institution should be FREE just the same as it is for high school. Only room and board should be charged.
With the spread between Wichita State (the highest) and K-State (the Lowest) being less than $2500, I can’t see how it is even significant. KS schools are still much cheaper than any of the surrounding states.
I suspect this is misleading; many of my students at WSU refuse to get a student loan, working instead (a source of frustration to faculty, because working so much compromises their grades and ability to do a good job in school).
I assume the data is only for those who do accept loans rather than students across the board; perhaps a high percentage of the WSU students accepting loan money are international students, which might suggest that they qualify for and accept more funding.
I would be interested in knowing what percentage of students across the board actually took out loans at each of the 5 schools.
As long as the federal gov’t continues to defund universities (started by Reagan), the costs will continue to rise.
It also doesn’t help that universities have only ONE criteria for advancement–publishing in archane journals only read by a handful of other researchers in the field.
Since teaching is devalued and academically meaningless, college professors will continue to avoid doing it.
RE: Ben’s comment on Kansas and neighboring states university-attendance costs.
In assessing costs of public university attendance in Kansas and her neighboring states, we have to understand some key issues. The State of Colorado, like the State of Georgia, is imposing stiff monetary penalties for prolonged university attendance, which is typically a matter of students switching majors, sometimes more than once, or exploring different options by taking a few courses in one field, deciding, “No this isn’t for me, let me look at this one,” and doing this repeatedly.
Under conditions of limited funding, this aimless youthful meandering effectively allows students who get into universities to “hog seats” for prolonged periods, thus denying deserving applicants access to a public university education, or else it leads to unmanageably large enrollments, with cost-rises, such as new dorms being needed to be built, more graduate students having to be paid for TA duties, et al.
Colorado has devised a stick-and-carrot solution to this problem: Colorado has severely raised public universities’ formal tuition charges, but compensates by using a College Opportunity Fund that pays nearly half the formal tuition charge. Obtaining COF funding requires the student to submit an application, for administrative purposes, which only requires evidence of Colorado residency and a social security number (or legal alien resident registration number). It does not require disclosure of family income, and COF funding is not reduced if a student receives conventional financial grant aid.
The caveat is that COF only pays for a maximum of 145 credit hours. If a student exceeds 145 credit hours, he or she is hit with the full very-high tuition charge, whose intent is to discourage students from dillydallying, so that more Colorado students can be higher-educated with effective cost containment on behalf of Colorado taxpayers.
This is not draconian or mean-spirited: Most degrees require 120 credit hours, and the anticipated pace is a 15 credit hours per semester, which means that a student can actually take nearly a full-courseload-equivalent extra year (fifth year) of 25 units. So the program does allow pathway changing by students who find their original chosen pathway to be something other than what they really want, but at the same time, the program presses students to stick with their second decision, earn their degrees, and move on.
The borrowing data smells suspicious, I’d want to see a detailed report with what type of loans, if any graduate programs are included and what the demographics are.
My main concern is, will my daughter be properly educated and get a job after she’s out of college and paying the student loans? Or is college a waste of her time and her money?
Check the salaries of college grads vs. non grads, Wondering.
That pretty much tells the story.
Odds are it will help her get a better job and won’t be a waste of time.
She will have to actually study, however . . .
Wondering-WHile I believe and education is important, and will eventually pay off one way or the other, you might also want to check what the profession she is majoring in pays. There are huge differencess.Regardless, education is never a waste of time.
Wondering,
Concerning your daughter getting a proper education is a concern, but I doubt it goes to the heart of the matter.
Unless a student gets a degree that can be applied directly to getting a job after college, the chances of getting a job in proportion to getting a certification in a particular field.
Take for instance, teachers can get certified to teach, nurses can get certified to practice nursing, engineers can get accredited certificates to practice in certain fields.
Other degrees like English, History, Philosophy, most of any Liberal Arts Degree do not carry a ready-to-work certification.
Getting a degree (B.A./B.S.) does not mean you will get a job and it is less likely you will have success getting a job without a specific certification.
Another example is Certified Public Accountant. The degree plan for accounting is a pathway, but it is only a piece of paper without a certification.
MPS raises the other point I thought of regarding higher debt totals for WSU students: WSU students, on average, take longer to graduate than KU or KSU students (if they do at all).
Regarding Capn’s post about research and teaching, there is actually a relationship. Research is valued because for several reasons, not least of which is that it improves the quality and nature of courses taught. If you want your kids to go to a school that has no research agenda, they’ll be learning old and out-of-date information.
Regarding the “arcane” nature of research, there’s no doubt it’s specialized, because it has to be. Changes in knowledge are driven incrementally, almost always in very small increments. Sticking to broad generalizations leads one to broad generalizations.
Education should NEVER be about getting a job.
Unless you are going to a vocational school, of course.
delsol-only if you don;t mind being a highly educated person who can’t pay the bills.
While I agree in general, borrowing money for an educaiton is an investment. You should make sure your monetary investment is going to provide a decent return. Otherwise, don;t borrow the money.
My guess is that the avreage WSU student comes from a less affluent background than those at KU or KState. Thus the higher borrowing; even WITH living at home.
Littlejohn,I guessed I would have to explain that comment–
The problem is that a university education is not strictly about training for a single skill. That’s why all accredited four-year schools have a general education requirement. My experience is that the belief in college as strictly job training narrows the student’s understanding and certainly engenders a compromised attitude toward education.
The original classical Greek education required a degree of proficiency in several subjects such that intellectual connections and depth of understanding were possible.
While some fields are more directly connected to a job after school, I prefer to believe that students are learning to think across and through several areas of study rather than to routinely execute trained skills.
It’s the difference between problem-solving and memorization.
In the best case scenario a college degree creates an engagement in students that will provide them the ability to think, articulate, and problem-solve, –especially important considering most students do not go on to careers in the same field as their undergrad degrees.
delsol – very good points. I would raise this: How many of us are doing something very different today from what we were 10-20-30 years ago?
think, articulate, and problem-solve, .
Posted by: delsol | July 09, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Agree. I have a technical degree. Engineering. i do all three (or at least claim to-my boss sometimes disagrees)
especially important considering most students do not go on to careers in the same field as their undergrad degrees.
Posted by: delsol | July 09, 2007 at 10:38 AM
Many do not, especially after finding their undergraduate degree in piano (just an example) doesn;t get them a good paying job.
Be careful, though–Not everyone wants a “good-paying job” if that means giving up something that defines their existence. Some people want a life that they can passionately believe in even if it means getting less on the job market.
And there a lot of people who have humanities degrees who do quite well because of the articulation that they necessitate…I have a friend whose BA is in in French, Art History, and Sociology. Now works at IBM.
I suspect that the main difference is that many more students at WSU are paying their own tuition. The traditional 18-22 year old being bankrolled by mommy and daddy is in greater supply at KU and KSU.
A major problem with a college education in Kansas is that the more education that you have, the more likely it is that you will be forced to leave the area for employment in your chosen field. There are not very many jobs for college grads available in the Wichita area.
Delsol-
I agree that an eduction, a well rounded education, is important. And, by all means, follow your heart. No problem there. I just hear far too many whine and cry that they have a college educations and can;t pay their bills, or make a “decent” living. If the starving artist thing is good for you, I have no trouble with that. I would, however, suggest that you not borrow money to gain such an eduction. I also agree that many can jump from liberal arts bas to good paying jobs, but I suspect it is not normative. Perhaps with a more focused masters degree.
I submit that the ones who are whining are the ones who didn’t seriously invest themselves in their educations because they were too busy working at the QT to pay their cell phone bills.
I have taken courses I didn’t use (I thought I would at the time) that i took out loans for. I am biased since I am in higher education now, but I have never once wished I had not taken those courses. I can honestly say that I never regretted a single course I took.
Maybe that’s just how I alone view things, I don’t know. I see all the information as useful and contributory, and even when I worked in a movie theater after undergrad before grad school–lean years–I would never have given my education back or changed my major.
So I guess I’m saying I think an education is worth it no matter what you do with it after school, even if you have to go into debt to get it. I think you still benefit even if you are still working at the QT…
..and if you are still at the QT you just need to invest yourself more in your field of interest, or go back and get a different degree that you can commit to.
Let me say that I enjoyed my liberal arts general curriculum classes I took. I will repeat, education about anything is never wasted. All knowledge is important, and you never know when it might be relevant. Learning itself is a delight, and I have never stopped. If borrowing money worked for you, and it was still a solid investment for you, great. I got no problem with that either. And if you are going on to graduate school, even better.
Good point Ben, lot more affluent parents at the other major universities.
Full-year 2007-2008 tuition for 30 credit hours of coursework in Kansas and neighboring states
Flagship university tuitions (highest to lowest):
1. MU Columbia $70772a. KU Lawrence $6390 “Compact Tuition” *2b. KU Lawrence $5844 “Standard Tuition” *3. OU Norman $54764. CU Boulder $5418 ($8216 after 145credit hours are completed)5. UN Lincoln $5085
“Compact tuition” is “locked in” for 4 years. Participating students enrolled more than 4 years will pay whatever Standard Tuition is charged in the 2011-12 year and thereafter. It’s a bit analogous to a fixed-rate vs. an adjustable-rate mortgage.
Morrill Land Grant (”A&M”) university tuitions (highest to lowest):
1. MU Columbia $7077 (flagship & MLG)2. KSU Manhattan $51753. UN Lincoln $5085 (flagship & MLG)4. OSU Stillwater $35855. CSU Fort Collins $3466 ($6044 after 145hours are completed)
Regional public doctoral university tuitions (highest to lowest):
1. UM Kansas City $70772. Wichita State U $36733. U Northern Colorado $3600 ($6250 after 145hours are completed)
(Nebraska and Oklahoma do not have regional public doctoral universities.)
Regional public master’s universities that were formerly teachers colleges (highest to lowest):
1. Missouri State U $59882. Emporia State U $35863. Chadron State Coll (NE) $33834. SE Oklahoma State U $28965. Adams State Coll (CO) $2712 ($4848 after145 credit hours)
Regional public master’s universities that were formerly municipal universities
1. Washburn U $55502. UN Omaha $4642
(Colorado and Oklahoma don’t have these. UM KC and UM St. Louis, formerly municipal universities, are doctoral universities like WSU.)
So, we see that whatever relative public university costs were in the past, Kansas now is the second-highest-tuition state among her neighbors. Public higher education in Kansas is no “great bargain” except in comparison to Missouri. Colorado, on the other hand offers a terrific bargain because its universities are “best in class” in our region, AND they are the cheapest to attend for instate residents.
There are differences between in being smart and being educated.I know many people without any education and yet they are successful.Key element to success is “Apply your self”.
Ben and Scott’s thoughts on KU and KSU students’ greater affluence than WSU students is right on target. KU and KSU parents pay room-and-board at $5000+, in addition to $5000+ tuition. Most under-21-year-old WSU students live at home with their parents.
It seems to me that the loan figures listed above are indicative of another problem, namely a shortage of general grant aid for needy students. It appears that there would be less loan indebtedness if there was more of the grant aid available. While all three of the major Regents’ institutions have a few “big dollar” scholarship, etc. programs, it seems from my experience that there is blessed little need-based grant aid out there for the general undergraduate student. I could be very wrong here, but this is how it appears to me.
I don’t know what the KU and KSU graduation rates are, but 34% of WSU students graduate in six years, accoring to 2007 data.The national average for six years is close to 80%, respectively.
Since WSU students are in school significantly longer, their tuitions are rising semester-by-semester and they are taking out more money for more semesters.
Vaughn’s absolutely right. Harvard, Yale and Princeton have appropriately done away with loans and work-study requirements for students who need financial aid. Everybody now gets grants. This is not only kind, but smart. As in, “Remember what we did for you? We have a new capital campaign, and we really need for you to contribute.”
I notice the article did not address how much of the education was being paid by the rest of us. Beyond that, these so-called kids are voting age adults. If they want an education then let them pay for it. Student loans and grants are readily available. If you are not willing to invest in yourself then do not expect the rest of us to invest in you.
I see nothing wrong with work study. I had a full time job and a family when i went to night school. I see nothing wrong with loans, hell they’ll take them out for tvs, cool cars, etc. Let those who will benefit directly pay their way. . I agree that society as a whole will pay the better educated its members. So, let’s make trade schools and jr colleges free. After that, find your own funding.
KSU’s 6-year graduation rate is currently 59%. The ACT average for 2001 freshmen was 23.3. (Oops KS schools, you botched your job, eh? Because it takes a 26 composite to indicate readiness for university coursework, without high school remediation having to be provided by the university.)
KU isn’t reporting, but historically has had very close to KSU graduation rates, usually about 1-2% higher.
MPS, I would suggest that not only Kansas schools botching their jobs, but the laughable “qualified admissions” program for Regents’ schools also plays a part. As I’m sure you know, all it takes to be admitted is a 21 composite ACT score for automatic admission, a score which is just a bit over the 50th percentile; or graduating in the top one-third of one’s class; or attaining a 2.5 GPA on a 4.0 scale on the “Regents’ recommended curriculum”; and if the applicant is 21 or older, none of the above. While the current program is an improvement over the former open admissions policy, that is, anyone who graduated from an accredited Kansas high school was guaranteed admission, it is still pitiful.
Yeah, but colleges need students, Vaughn, and state schools’ successes (and failures) are closely tied to state successes and failures. Drops in poulation correspond to drops in numbers of students.
WSU’s policy is somewhat open (>cough<). Essentially you’re in if you have a heartbeat.
Doesn’t much help the awful graduation numbers, because most departments in the university are pretty serious.
My husband graduated from WSU with four bachelor’s degrees after 7 years with $34,000.00 in student loan debt. Now he has a job at the post office that does not even require a degree. Unfortunately we will be paying for his degrees for the next 35 years. What a waste of time and money. If I sound bitter it’s because I worked to support him most of the time he was in school, and now I can’t afford to go back to college myself without taking out even more student loans, which I refuse to do.
Here is a serious problem. Kansas was created by feudal-minded industrialist capitalists, most of them descendants of bastard children of noblemen who didn’t have an inheritance so they struck out on their own. Smart guys with a chip on their shoulders who felt they had “something to prove”.
They lured peasants from central and eastern Europe to be workers of the land, using fraudulent “Garden of Eden”, “The Rain Follows the Plow” pitches. It wasn’t that most of today’s Kansans great grandfathers were totally gullible, but the Feudalist rulers had created calamity in the Old World, so moving to America was a reasonable experiment. MAYBE there was something better in the New World.
You’re at a new crossroads, but representing the same Old World paradigm. Your rulers don’t want you to become educated. They’re more interested in transferring your jobs to Asia, where the peasants are ultra-cheap recruits. Like your great grandfathers were.
YOU have to decide what you want for YOUR children. We’re 40 years beyond the apogee of the peasant caste’s rising to the middle class. The course is now descending back towards poverty. You were taught to let your “betters” think for you. That’s not going to work. Your WWII battle-hardened fathers knew this, and refused to take crap. They took tedious, grueling work, but said, “We just saved Western Civilization. We demand a decent piece of the American Pie.” And the capitalists had to give it to them. Or else risk a communist revolution.
The American capitalists were much more sensible than the ruling class of Russia and China, so they compromised. But their sons are conniving to restore the feudalistic past. And they don’t even know why they are doing this, it’s just an unconscious driving impetus. Maybe it’s a genetic flaw.
Vaughn, the core curriculum GPA value isn’t even 2.5, it’s 2.0. Given grade inflation a straight C is equivalent to a D performance 40 years ago. I’m not exaggerating. Kids who earn B /B+’s in second-year algebra are getting 21-24 ACT Math scores, and are placed in “study it again” remedial algebra courses in our Regents Universities.
A lot of Kansans believe that “college algebra” is a university level course. Wrong. The subject matter of “college algebra” is completely contained in college-preparatory math high school textbooks. It is tested on the high school ACT and SAT tests. If you master the subject matter in high school and get a 28 ACT Math, you don’t have to retake algebra at KU or KSU.
Good point MPS. What they call college algebra I had in 9th grade.
Thanks for the correction, MPS. I knew as I hit the post button I’d likely made an error.
Agreed on the College Algebra point, as well as the general grade inflation issue. Of course, another issue in this area is when the students are not taking any math once Algebra II is completed (no later than as a Junior, in many cases), then how can they be expected to perform at the college level in Math? I know my position on this will be as popular as the proverbial floater in the punchbowl, but I’d have a general state graduation requirement of four credits of high school Math, with anything less than Algebra I not counting. BTW, the fourth credit in Math doesn’t have to be pre-Calculus; it could be some applied math, with some Trig (not necessarily the Trig needed by prospective Math majors) involved, so the student would have a sufficient background to, e.g., program a CNC machine, it being my understanding that this type of Math ability is needed for this function.
Anne, I’m sorry to hear of your situation.Your husband graduated with FOUR bachelor’s degrees? How is that even possible in seven years? Are the degrees related in some way?
There are certainly many fields where graduate degrees are required for employment.
The comments about the level of math achievement are accurate, that doesn’t seem to have improved. But in general, college students enter school knowing more and being better prepared, grades notwithstanding.
The “today’s C was a D” comparisons aren’t really useful because of the multitude of variables that can enter, i.e., there might have been much more involved in earning that C than was expected in the past.
Our memories tend to be skewed on this, but outside of science and math, most studies I have read confirm that students achieve considerably more in contemporary HS than they did 40 years ago. One area that is of increasing concern is the written word, though–the computer and video landscape are squeezing reading out the door, and you can REALLY tell which freshmen have read books and which have not. Make your kids read!!!!
To delsol’s plea, I would add that if your students do read books, they will likely score much higher on the ACT/SAT verbal sections as well.
On science, at least in Biology, the high school curriculum to which our younger was exposed covered many areas not touched in my high school days. Without dating myself too much I hope, when I was in high school, we didn’t have any introduction to subjects such as molecular biology and cell biology, and we surely didn’t have as extensive a discussion in genetics as did the younger. Of course, the Linneaus classifications were not taught in nearly as much depth during both daughters’ time as when I took the course.
I seem to recall that the Physics taken by both daughters in high school explored, at least in passing, topics that were not touched upon in my high school Physics course. While quantum theory is a bit beyond the ken of most high school students, it, for example, was touched upon in the Physics course taken by both in high school. Finally, to my ability to recall, the Chemistry course both took did a bit more with electron orbital levels than we did in high school.
Regarding math; when the younger took Algebra II, one of the topics covered was Linear Programming, something to which I was not exposed until my college days. Again, not quite the same level (the KU B-school course where they attempted to teach me this had a requirement of Calc I), but a good way to show application of the principles being taught (or attempted to be taught) in class to something from the “real world”.
I think that FREE college tuition should be a goal of the country within the next 5 years. It should be free. You pay for your books, room and board and your tuition is free. The Federal and state governments should 100% fund the university system. And it should be free for in state or out of state.
Good point MPS. What they call college algebra I had in 9th grade.
Posted by: Ben | July 09, 2007 at 02:05 PM
And it was written in Latin too Ben! :D
Latin? Shoot, my class was taught in Sanskrit!
In eighth grade!!
:)
My algebra was taught in what is now called Ancient Greek, as I recall. :-)
Anne–
With all due respect, your husband doesn’t sound very focused.
Unless he had some specific goal for spending almost twice as long as usual for getting an undergraduate degree, he shouldn’t have done it.
Or better yet, he should have gone on to get a graduate degree.
But don’t despair, a lot of entry level jobs aren’t that good. He can still move up if he’s serious about doing so.