The circumstances surrounding Pat Tillman’s death keep getting worse. First, the Army spent five weeks trying to cover up the fact that the former NFL player was killed by friendly fire while serving in Afghanistan. Now, a medical report indicates that his death may not have been accidental. Medical examiners said that bullet holes in Tillman’s forehead were so close together that it appeared that he was shot from only 10 yards away. “The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” said a doctor who examined Tillman.
The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee is scheduled to hold another hearing Wednesday on Tillman’s death — and has invited former defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld and retired Gen. Richard Myers to testify. It needs to keep pushing for the whole truth.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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105 Comments
The White House is already claiming “executive privilege” on this, and refusing to turn over documents related to Tillman’s death/murder and the outrageous lies and spin that came out of it. Unbelievable.
Yes, Tom, the claim of Executive Privilege on this issue rings so hollow.
My take: let a criminal investigation go forward. One not conducted by the U.S. Army. Let the results be as they turn out to be, and publicized.
calling Rumsfield and Meyers to testify..talk about Political theater.what do they actuallty think they will testify about. try calling parts of his squad..Congress the most brain dead group of people ever..
The cynicism of the administrations’ attempt to use Tillman while alive, and exploit his death for propaganda purposes (just short of ululating women carrying his oversize photo through the streets), does not offer much encouragement that the truth will come from the beltway crowd.
Maybe we could hire Jim Ryun to guest-grill Rummy…remember his stellar performance in the Abu Ghraib hearings, when Rumsfeld basically had to bite his lip to keep from laughing at Ryun’s softball? Now that was theater!
Gotta concur, if you want to get somewhere near the truth, you have to offer immunity to the grunts who were at the scene.
That’s right folks, if you’re used as a political pawn and you get killed by your fellow soldiers then Bush will lie to your face. If you show up in tears asking why your son died Bush will tell you that it’s none of your business and laugh in your face.
Tillman’s mom received nothing but lies and insults from the Bush regime. That’s how Bush respects the military and those who sacrifice their children for corporate profits.
Would it have been bad press if their glorified soldier had come out and said that he’s a liberal Atheist who thinks the illegal invasion of Iraq was a bad decision? Sure enough. Just like the facts behind Jessica Lynch was a black eye for the administration after it was revealed they used her as a propaganda tool and lied to the public about her injuries and rescue.
WHAAaaaa???
An atheist in a foxhole?
No way.
Yeah, and they shot him right after he said this:
“Hey, O’Neal, why are you praying? God can’t help us now.”
http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/nationworld/story/121011.html
I hear a rumor that Bush is so desperate for ground troops that he’ll be sending in Naval forces to be foot soldiers. One of my former co-workers just told me that her 59 year old dad is being sent to Afghanistan for six months, he’s 8 months to retirement. A 59 year old soldier, so what excuse do the pro-war fascist thugs on this forum have for not enlisting?
Where is nathan to defend this? Where are all the gun totin’ veterans who support bush? I dont hear anyone trying to defend bushco or the military on this one.
Where are they? The sound of silence is deafening.
I”l be Rumsfeld’s defense lawyer:
Your Honor, we’ll need a rope so we can go out behind the Courthouse and hang my client.
Maybe, could of, might be…
Who knows what until the investigation is complete.
Perhaps a fellow soldier murdered him or perhaps he stuck his head up at the wrong time and a fellow soldier didn’t have a “clear fire zone” (don’t fire over friendlies heads.)
I suppose the Generals that awarded Tillman medals thought they were doing good when they awarded him medals. Couple of have been demoted, reprimanded, etc.
Negligence happens sometimes when “unsure” soldiers are in the field. In exercises I’ve seen aircraft fly straight into the ground because they weren’t reading their instruments after a maneuver. It wasn’t uncommon to hear about tanks running over someone or somebody’s car in Germany.
I don’t know what happen, but to speculate on punishing anyone for unknown reason is beyond the pale, it’s just plain stupid.
Ok, Let’s unhang Rumsfeld.
Well gosh troll boy, project much?
many of your questions could be answered if you didnt swallow the bush line and actually DID a little research.
Here’s a little linky love. I know you wont click on it. hee hee hee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1471925
…still waiting on all the gun nuts to bring their vast expertise on the subject.
Maybe they dont like what their “expertise” tells them?
The Freedom of Information Act is just so inconvenient. It should be suspended post haste.
“still waiting on all the gun nuts to bring their vast expertise on the subject.
Maybe they dont like what their “expertise” tells them?”
I’m one of those “gun nuts,” and you are exactly right. Three shots, tightly grouped, are indeed a sign of very bad news. I don’t like it.
As far as the Navy (and USAF) sending in troops to augment the Army, that’s correct, too. The Navy, for one, calls it “ILO” duty, for In Lieu Of (an Army Soldier). I don’t like it either. We’ve seen this before. It is part because of the need, and part because Admirals and Generals are posturing for funds, and they want to say, “we’re in there, too.”
The 18 yr. old with tillman said the troops were so close (maybe 150 feet) that he recognized most of them. Hell tillman popped a smoke to identify himself, how many enemies do that?
Phantom,
Define “enemy”
heheheheh Tom. Enemies of bushco dont usually pop smoke either….
Not that it matters. Between illegal warrantless wiretapping and government data mining, I’m pretty sure bushco knows where EVERYONE is who disagrees with dear leader.
Zelda,
Three shots within a two inch pattern is indeed “very bad news” (that’s what’s been reported, BTW). Aware of the ILO assignments of the USAF, from reading the Sandbox blog, but the Navy being so used came as news to me.
Well KFG, I don’t use newspapers or Blogs or the Internet for official investigations regarding the death of someone.
Since I’m not privy to the statements or testimony in regards to the case, I would be guessing.
Or I could be a talking head fool and link to a Website like DU. :)
Are you surprised, VT that the ILO escalate?
The military industrial complex machine MUST be fed.
It likes the tasty warm bodies of american soldiers for nutrition, and the bodies of “collateral damage” as snacks.
So… those invested in keeping the “machine” alive and well have to keep shoveling those tasty warm bodies into the maw of the beast.
And people volunteer….
walk on by…
A little, kfg, given the announced 40,000 FY08 RIF for the USAF.
Propaganda, concerning war, has been a tool used by most if not all countries, this one being no exception. What the armed forces failed to take into account was information is available on an instantanious basis now.
I suspect, that for raising the flag-waving fervor of the home folks, there have been many incedents of this nature in our past wars. That doesn’t make it right, but it’s just another tool.
This time, the powers that be got caught with their collective hand on the trigger. It would not surprise me in the least to find the real account of his deathe covered up at the highest levels.
When one thinks of ‘friendly fire’, badly-aimed bullets come to mind. Not so here. They were trying to kill him and O’Neal even after repeated attempts to ’surrender.’
Kinda makes you think. . . .
many of your questions could be answered if you didnt swallow the bush line and actually DID a little research.
Here’s a little linky love. I know you wont click on it. hee hee hee
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1471925
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 30, 2007 at 02:38 PM
I do not know the facts behind the death of Pat Tillman. Neither do you, after reading the posts you so positively use as a reference for research, neither do they. All speculation. All BS. There IS a difference between speculation and fact. If Pat Tillman was killed intentinally, , or fragged, or whatever, it needs to be found out and prosecuted. Calling generals and the like to Congress is grandstanding. Open a true investigation, starting with the men with his company. Give an offer of one immunity, to the first that opens their mouth. THe rest hang. If the information went up the channel, and it can be proven, then those responsible for the coverup needs to be charged with not only falsifying documents, but aiding and abetting a homocide. Let the truth ring out, and speculation keep quiet
stumper, heard of “fragging” re: Viet Nam?
Cue the X-Files music.
Shhhhh….it’s a conspiracy! Some one had orders to kill ultra-patriot Tillman. It might go to the very highest levels. VP, Prez,.. maybe even Oprah…
We don’t know what really happened with Pat Tillman yet.
But we do know that the Bush Administration feels the need to lie about it.
Granted, they lie about everything–absolutely everything–but usually people have a reason to lie.
As for the possibility of fragging, here’s what the reich-wing has to say about it:
On June 20 and 21, right-wing pundit Ann Coulter refused to explain — and even expanded upon — her recent claim that Rep. John P. Murtha (D-PA) is “the reason soldiers invented fragging,”
On Fox News’ Hannity & Colmes, Coulter further expanded upon her statement, asserting that if Murtha “did get fragged, he’d finally deserve one of those Purple Hearts.”
Real nice . . .
“George W. Bush is the reason that thinking people invented . . . ” no, sorry, I’m not going to go there.
That kind of thinking is hate speech.
Littlejohn,
We know several things about Tillman. We know he’s dead. We know the story of his death has changed more than once. We know Bush’s lawyers are now asserting Executive Privilege to keep Congress from investigating the White House role, if any, in the lies surrounding his death.
I’m afraid this will end where so many other investigations of the Bush administration have ended: In a vague fog of “I don’t recall” and other obfuscations designed to keep the American people from ever learning the truth.
Tom
ps – welcome back. Were you on vacation?
Hey Tom,Thanks. Yes, we took some severely needed vacation. Very relaxing, and much needed. Batteries are recharged and ready to go mostly.No phones, no emails, no computer, no news, beautiful!You are right in most of your 3:34 post. We do know those things, and we may never get to the bottom of this, though I hope we do. However, at this point, there is nothing but speculation. Let us proceed calmly. Deliberately, but calmly. As I said, start with the company he served with. Starting at the top means nothing, at least in my opinion. Just grandstanding. More of the same old bs. My guess is most could care less about the facts,only what political gain that they can get from them.
Yes, littlejohn, welcome back. I’m glad to hear the batteries are mostly recharged, and you’re back mostly ready to go.
I agree, any investigation needs to be done calmly, deliberatively, and starting at the top certainly doesn’t seem appropriate. Start with the unit, dangling the carrot of immunity where needed (worked with Lt. Col. North, didn’t it?), and work up the chain. Chances of finally determining what indeed happened are probably slim, but given the hype over Cpl. Tillman’s enlistment and subsequent death, I believe a real attempt needs to be made. To me, it’s unconscionable to mislead the family for five weeks. For Army attorneys to give each other ‘cyber high-fives” as alleged, over stopping a criminal investigation just doesn’t seem right.
Many, many questions; much to attempt to clarify. Will the final results of any investigation be accepted by all? Likely not, but the attempt must, IMHO, be made.
Wasn’t Bush the one that said he was going to restore honesty and integrity to the White House?
Well this is the time to prove it. Pat Tillman’s family deserves to know the truth and Pat Tillman deserves to have the truth known to all Americans.
what is Bush and Gang afraid of? If they did nothing wrong, then they should want and expect a full investigation with all the facts, no matter how ugly, known.
Not just the death but the aftermath. It seems the Bush administration was hyping his heroism under fire and all that when they knew or should have known he ahd died by “friendly fire”
“No phones, no emails, no computer, no news, beautiful!”
I broke out in a cold sweat just _reading_ that. How did you survive???
“No phones, no emails, no computer, no news, beautiful!”
I broke out in a cold sweat just _reading_ that. How did you survive???
Posted by: Tom | July 30, 2007 at 04:34 PM
It was easy. I just breathed the cool mountain air, and rejoiced in what was before me. I deliberately turned off the “interest” in all the woes of the real world, and selfishly spent the time on me and my family. It was great. And the world didn;t collapse while I was away.
Hey there repubs – any speculation into why the WH is claiming executive priveledge on this one?
Kind of seems wierd doesn’t it?
If there wasn’t, they would just say it is being investigated and we are going to cooperate fully to ensure if there was any wrongdoing it will be uncovered and prosecuted. But rather, they are claiming executive priveledge (something they would not likely do unless there was something they had that they felt was priveledged)
Brian,
It probably has to do with all the public statements the Administration made in the immediate aftermath of Tillman’s death. There was all the “national hero” stuff going on, and probably political considerations on selling the war for the then-upcoming elections.
Given the fact that the DR who examined the body indicated ‘other than hostile fire’ from the very beginning then why did BushCo lie and tell us all about his heroics? And now do those claims constitute a cover-up of what really happened?
Obviously Bush sent Cheney to personally murder Tillman.
Seriously, you folks running out of tin foil yet?
What is it you folks think the White House did here?
Heckler – then why claim executive priviledge?
Heckler,
I personally think that the Bush administration found Tillman to be a convenient propaganda tool. Propaganda needs a good story, and Tillman’s story is a great one. Multi-million dollar pro football player sacrifices career for corporal’s pay. It makes great headlines, right? Bad headlines is when the hero dies. Unless of course the hero dies valiantly, fighting for his nation. My guess is that the Bush administration saw his death as yet another propaganda story, but that they got a little ahead of the REAL story. And once the REAL story started coming out, they stonewalled because they didn’t want to be accused of using Tillman’s death for, you guessed it, propaganda.
and thus … stonewall with executive priviledge
With the use of the propoganda to bolster the flagging recruitment numbers, to be sure; not a good thing for recruiting to report that the prized recruit died due to “friendly fire”, although from all reports, that was reasonably certain within hours of the incident. And, Heckler, in my mind it isn’t so much what the White House did directly concerning the Tillman story; it is what it allowed to occur in the intervening days and weeks concerning the same.
You do have a point, however; the WH is just sitting at the top of the chain, in which everyone involved was busily taking CYA actions ab initio, as has been made painfully apparent as more information comes out.
Weren’t they using Tillman as a recruiting tool before his demise.Fox couldn’t say enough on the all american, fighting the all american war!
Yes, Phantom, there weren’t many missed opportunities to so use him ante mortem, and it seems to me, they wanted to ride that horse as long as they could post mortem. When I say “they”, I hasten to add, I’m not referring directly to anyone within the White House. Again, my issue with the White House proper was the tacit approval, it appears to me, of allowing the game to continue.
Phantom and Vaughn,
My recollection is that Bush himself mentioned Tillman’s “heroic” sacrifice in the immediate aftermath. That goes beyond “tacit approval,” IMO.
I dont see how ANY of you here could possiblhy claim Tillman’s death to be accidental, when the report I saw on it just this weekend, said there were THREE bullet holes, in a 2″ circle in the man’s forehead… That might be accidental to the Mafia, but nowhere else… Ooops I forgot, we have a Cheney Mafia..
Tom,
Are you referring to the remarks delivered about 2 days later, the ones in which Mr. Bush didn’t specifically refer to Cpl. Tillman’s death at the hands of the enemy? The ones that were delivered after the “urgent message” to the White House advising of potential political embarrassment if the mention of enemy action was made?
Chas., while it may seem to strain credulity to say it was an “accident” given those, among other, facts which have been learned, I think there needs to be a new, independent of the Army investigation, before I can totally eliminate “accident” as a possibility.
Vaughn,
My recollection is very hazy on this, but I believe that may be it. I could be wrong – Bush may have never talked about it at all.
I’ll pose a slightly different question: Was the disinformation about his death not an accident?
Ben, IMO, the disinformation about the circumstances surrounding Cpl. Tillman’s death was no accident.
Of course you dont’ know at what level this began. It could have been in the field where it happened. I mean, imagine you or your unit had screwed up and killed the most visible soldier in the country. Certainly there would be incentive to try to CYA.
It began on a distant battlefield in the Afghan mountains. The endpoint is Bush’s desk.
How hard was that?
Vaughn, how can you possibly explain 3 veryclose bullet holes of that nature, as anything BUT intentional?? For three bullet wounds to strike that small area, at random, must have infinitessimily small odds of being accidental…. I know, I am not a lawyer, and there are probably fine legal points…
But, I find it totally inexcusable for the CIC to pawn it off as some kind of heroe action, which was done to help HIS election campaigns…. THAT would seem to show this President for the shallow, sad, man that he has become!!
Another cover-up… just like the border guards down by El Paso… They BREAK the law on a number of items, they are convicted, and now some of the beloved right wing, and most all of talk radio, want them set free… Geez…. Talk about the culture of corruption!!
Did anybody happen to catch Laura Ingraham’s interview with that Prosecutor on the Border Guards case?? She kept pushing him on reopening the case, since they are BORDER Guards, and they should be HEROES… And the Prosecutor kept telling her, that it was a tight prosecution, and he was not in favor of re-opening the case…
Three bullets to the head, closely grouped, and fired from an M-16. Not good.
CF2K would like nothing more than to see an untampered-with, up-front, complete investigation. He doesn’t think it’s going to happen.
If Pat Tillman was murdered by U.S. troops who were his comrades, that’s bad. If the murder was covered up out of fear of the consequences and for ideological reasons, that’s much, much worse. Obviously.
I kind of like how Bush has brought honesty and integrity back to the White House.
Poopy diapers, hunting while intoxicated, shooting a friend in the face and not reporting it until you’re sober, starting wars based on lies, billions of tax dollars disappearing in Iraq, etc.
I’d hate to see what it would be like if Bush brought dishonesty and dishonorable conduct to the White House.
“It began on a distant battlefield in the Afghan mountains. The endpoint is Bush’s desk.
How hard was that?”
Not very hard at all, Tom, when you have a fertile imagination and are not bound by the facts.
Just letting ya’ll know, there is a bet in the Salina forum, one military gun nut said he could nail 3 shots from an automatic within inches at a distance of 100 yards. The loser says he’ll pay 100 bucks if he can.
Should be interesting to see how this one turns out.
I volunteer Outlander as the target!
How ’bout it Outlander? Ready to take one for the Bush team?
qwerty,
Too late: outlander’s credibilty already has.
Sounds like Outlander doesnt want to believe the three bullets story that was all over the news this weekend… Hmmmmm
The mainstream media that has a liberal bias, lies like rugs. Please keep up, Chas. That was from Conservative Talking Points 101, after all.
There are sources that suggest that when reading material that supports one’s biases the brain reacts in much the same way as it does on euphoria inducing drugs. So, it is no surprise that people keep reading and believing what they want to believe. Liberals do it, too; just not so obnoxiously – but the qualifier “obnoxious” can mean different things to different reasonable people.
Outlander,
Are you saying the President is not responsible for what happens on his watch? The buck DOESN’T stop at his desk?
Nice try at attacking my credibility, though. Why don’t you go back through all my old posts, and find where I have ever lied about anything.
Good luck with that.
According to the analysis of what happened, I believe it was on the history channel, Tillman and an Afghan soldier were mistaken for the enemy. The shooting subsided and Tillman, thinking that the other American soldiers realized they were friendlys stood up. When he stood up he was hit. Now since at least a half dozen soldiers knew his exact position and fired nearly simultaneously is it hard to believe that he was hit simultaneously with 2 or 3 bullets?
B.D.S. is flourishing here today.
“Why don’t you go back through all my old posts, and find where I have ever lied about anything.”
Uh Tom. I’m never said you were lying. Just that you’re speculating and are willing to state connections that aren’t there. Is that the same thing? If so…OK.
“Are you saying the President is not responsible for what happens on his watch? The buck DOESN’T stop at his desk?”
And as far as implying that the president being responsible for everything Tom, that is too silly to respond to.
This is outrageous but nothing these slimeballs do surprises me a bit. I would not be surprised to hear Bush or Cheney slapped Tillman’s mother and then took a leak on his grave. That is how low they are.
come on p.m., referring to poor ole cranberry as “the loser” is just too much. Watch it or I’ll scribble three pages of invective.
Outlander,
When it’s statements and policies and propaganda coming out of Bush’s mouth and the Bush White House, he IS responsible. Go ahead and make the case he’s not.
And you were trying to attack my credibility, instead of focusing on the debate at hand. What else is a comment about “fertile imagination not bound by facts?”
“It began on a distant battlefield in the Afghan mountains. The endpoint is Bush’s desk.
How hard was that?”
Tom: Did I attack you? Nope. Telling you that you make silly statements is not attacking you. It is challenging you to support your assertion. Please proceed.
“Well KFG, I don’t use newspapers or Blogs or the Internet for official investigations regarding the death of someone.”
Posted by: Kansas | July 30, 2007 at 03:03 PM
The multi-named ‘Kansas’ is posting about credible sources?
That’s a HUGE irony, and ROFL funny!
Outlander,
The administration’s own changing story, and the words from the mouth of the President, support my assertion. Do I need to rewrite every post about this, from multiple posters, Republican, Democrat, and independent, to show you this? Or perhaps you can just use the scroll bar…
This is what bush’s wars has brought our military to!Exclusive: Gangs Spreading In The MilitaryCBS News Talks To The Family Of A U.S. Soldier Killed In Gang Initiation
Main PageBlog: Couric & Co.Couric’s NotebookFirst LookCBS News FYICBS News InvestigatesBlog: Primary SourceEye On TechnologyBlog: Tech TalkAssignment AmericaThe SkinnyReporter’s NotebookBiosContact InfoInside ScoopCBS Evening News Video
InteractiveMilitary 101Basic training to learn all about America’s fighting force.
RELATED STORIES & LINKS
Are Gang Members Using Military Training?Military Police Have Briefed Local Police That Troops Could Be Sharing Their Skills
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Drill Sergeants Dial It Down A NotchHazing, Physical Confrontation Out As “Soldierization” Process Changes
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Special Forces Shift StrategyNew Special Ops Commanders Believe Killing Terrorists May Not Be Enough
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Tougher Sell For Military Recruiters: DadPentagon Report Shows Fathers’ Support For Children Joining Armed Forces Fell Nearly 20 Percent
——————————————————————————–July 28, 2007——————————————————————————–Shavon Striggles, a Marine corporal, poses in gang colors inside the barracks on Parris Island. (Richland County Sheriff)
A Quote
“I feel like I didn’t prepare him enough to deal with this and I should have. But how would I have known there were gangs in the military?”
——————————————————————————–
Stephanie CockrellMother of Sgt. Juwan Johnson
WHAT DO YOU THINK?
——————————————————————————–
Go To Comments(CBS) U.S. Army Sgt. Juwan Johnson got a hero’s welcome while home on leave in June of 2004.
“Not only did I love my son – but my god – I liked the man he was becoming,” his mother, Stephanie Cockrell, remembers.
But that trip home was the last time his family saw him alive.
When Johnson died, he wasn’t in a war zone, he was in Germany.
“He had finished his term in Iraq,” his mother said. “I talked to him the day before his death. He said, ‘Mom, I’m in the process of discharging out. I’ll be out in two weeks’.”
On July 3, 2005, Sgt. Johnson went to a park not far from his base in Germany to be initiated into the ‘Gangster Disciples,’ a notorious Chicago-based street gang. He was beaten by eight other soldiers in a “jump-in” – an initiation rite common to many gangs.
“My son never spoke of joining a gang,” Cockrell told CBS News correspondent Thalia Assuras.
Johnson died that night from his injuries. His son, Juwan Jr., was born five months later.
“I feel like I didn’t prepare him enough to deal with this and I should have,” his mother said. “But how would I have known there were gangs in the military? I could have had that talk with him.”
Evidence of gang culture and gang activity in the military is increasing so much an FBI report calls it “a threat to law enforcement and national security.” The signs are chilling: Marines in gang attire on Parris Island; paratroopers flashing gang hand signs at a nightclub near Ft. Bragg; infantrymen showing-off gang tattoos at Ft. Hood.
“It’s obvious that many of these people do not give up their gang affiliations,” said Hunter Glass, a retired police detective in Fayetteville, North Carolina, the home of Ft. Bragg and the 82nd Airborne. He monitors gang activity at the base and across the military.
“If we weren’t in the middle of fighting a war, yes, I think the military would have a lot more control over this issue,” Glass said. “But with a war going on, I think it’s very difficult to do.”
Gang activity clues are appearing in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. Gang graffiti is sprayed on blast walls – even on Humvees. Kilroy – the doodle made famous by U.S. soldiers in World War II – is here, but so is the star emblem of the Gangster Disciples.
The soldier who took photos if the graffiti told CBS News that he’s been warned he’s as good as dead if he ever returns to Iraq.
“We represent America – our demographics are the same – so the same problems that America contends with we often times contend with,” said Colonel Gene Smith of the Army’s Office of the Provost Marshal.
The U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command reported 61 gang investigations and incidents last year, compared to just 9 in 2004. But army officials point out less than 1 percent of all its criminal investigations are gang related.
“We must remember that there are a million people in the army community,” Smith said, “And these small numbers are not reflective of a tremendous, pervasive, rampant problem.”
The rise in gang activity coincides with the increase in recruits with records. Since 2003, 125,000 recruits with criminal histories have been granted what are known as “moral waivers” for felonies including robbery and assault.
A hidden-camera investigation by CBS Denver station KCNC found one military recruiter was quick to offer the waiver option even when asked, “Does it matter that i was in a gang or anything?” That is well within military regulations.
“You may have had some gang activity in your past and everything … OK … but that in itself does not disqualify…,” the recruiter said.
Military regulations disqualify members of hate groups from enlisting, but there is no specific ban on members of street gangs. Sgt. Juwan Johnson’s family says such a prohibition is long overdue.
“Just maybe we can save someone else’s child … somebody else’s husband … somebody else’s father,” his mother said. “I would have loved to have seen him with his child, I really would have — that part is hard, that part is hard.”
This month a military court sentenced two of Juwan Johnson’s attackers to prison.
——————————————————————————–Part two of this CBS News investigation looks at police warnings that gangs in the military are branching out to the streets of America.
© MMVII, CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
9 million were killed in WW1. I watched an old black and white film of a man wearing a kilt and struggling with his Bagpipes as he came out of the “trench” to help march the troops to their death.
That said, the reason to go to war must be better than WW1 and the newest reasons that we lost Pat Tillman.
War can’t be about Bagpipes or mythical terrorists or other slogans.
All of the Pat Tillmans are worth more than the sum of those limp excuses.
Take note:**********Where is nathan to defend this? Where are all the gun totin’ veterans who support bush? I dont hear anyone trying to defend bushco or the military on this one.
Where are they? The sound of silence is deafening.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 30, 2007 at 02:15 PM
We could round up all ugly fat dykes out there and send them to battle. But, nevermind, they’d be as useless there as they are here.
Posted by: FU | July 30, 2007 at 02:20 PM**********
And then:
Maybe, could of, might be…
Who knows what until the investigation is complete.
Perhaps a fellow soldier murdered him or perhaps he stuck his head up at the wrong time and a fellow soldier didn’t have a “clear fire zone” (don’t fire over friendlies heads.)
I suppose the Generals that awarded Tillman medals thought they were doing good when they awarded him medals. Couple of have been demoted, reprimanded, etc.
Negligence happens sometimes when “unsure” soldiers are in the field. In exercises I’ve seen aircraft fly straight into the ground because they weren’t reading their instruments after a maneuver. It wasn’t uncommon to hear about tanks running over someone or somebody’s car in Germany.
I don’t know what happen, but to speculate on punishing anyone for unknown reason is beyond the pale, it’s just plain stupid.
Posted by: Kansas | July 30, 2007 at 02:23 PM**********
Contiguity does not equal causation, but one does have to wonder when a confessed troll posts so close in time.
Eds, please check this out. Thanks.
Paranoid much Steven Davis?
I was busy doing other things. But glad you and others think I’m responsible for every troll post that appears on this blog.
On the other hand, the conspiracy driven Libs never cease to amaze me with their who is behind what and when finger-pointing emetics.
volunteer Outlander as the target!
Posted by: qwerty | July 30, 2007 at 07:31 PM
How ’bout it Outlander? Ready to take one for the Bush team?
Posted by: qwerty | July 30, 2007 at 07:33 PM
qwerty,
Too late: outlander’s credibilty already has.
Posted by: CF2K | July 30, 2007 at 07:38 PM
Sounds like Outlander doesnt want to believe the three bullets story that was all over the news this weekend… Hmmmmm
Posted by: Chas. | July 30, 2007 at 07:44 PM
You people have gotten even worse while I was away. Here some fool (querty) “volunteers” Outlander to take three shots to the head, and you damn people can only talk about Outlanders credibility? What the hell is wrong with you!
Littlejohn,
I have no idea who “qwerty” is. While you were enjoying a nice mountain vacation (of which I’m jealous), nic-switching trolls have done everything they can to disrupt every conversation on this blog. It’s irresponsible children on both “sides,” and it’s tiresome.
I fired the M16A2 for 10 years. Problems with this case – as exposed and presented so far –
1) The A2 has 3 round burst mode. One squeeze, 3 rounds. On average at 10 meters, the shot group will be spread from 6” to 12”. The 5.56 round has a very high muzzle velocity (2800 ft per sec) which equals a fair amount of recoil for such a small round. The ability to fire rounds in such a tight shot group would most likely require the weapon to be in a vice.2) Why the lie about the fire fight?3) Why were his uniform and personal effects burned/buried?4) Why aren’t his teammates coming forward?
Tom–Thanks for the headsup. I think i am glad I missed all the fun.
“I mean, imagine you or your unit had screwed up and killed the most visible soldier in the country.”
Uh, try this on. It’s closer to the truth.
“I mean, imagine you or your unit MURDERED the most visible soldier in the country”.
yeah. cya big time.
Sol, good points/questions. These need to be answered/responded to, IMO, and done so in an environment free of command influence, thus my continuing call for a new, criminal investigation conducted by an entity other than the U.S. Army, and, probably, by an entity other than the military. Immunity may well need to be granted in order for those with direct, personal knowledge to feel free to come forward.
There was no evidence of enemy fire. The only 5.56 weapon remotely capable of putting 3 rounds into someone’s forehead in a tight shot group (other than if the victim were lying on his/her back and the weapon mounted directly above him/her) is the M249 SAW. To get a head shot like that, you would be able to see the victim’s face.
Why was his uniform burned?Why were his personal effects buried?Why a head shot?Why the cover up – that is STILL going on?
VT – agreed 100%
Also add to the fact that no military equipment was damaged. The shots tended to focus squarely on Tillman. Since the military usually investigates any possible murder it’s reasonable to conclude that someone higher than a 2-star ordered a cover-up.
Thus, Doug, the emails among Army attorneys that allegedly are congratulatory in nature over their success in stopping a criminal investigation? Someone with more than two stars (or even a civilian with authority) had to be involved in this, given what I learned in the USAF as a part of the JAG corps.
The investigation HAS to be done by a non-biased third party. A military investigation will be a waste of time and money.
I feel another orange terror alert coming on. You know, something to distract the sheeple as the Tillman evidence mounts.
terra! terra! terra!
With that tight of a target pattern, I’d say it is virtually impossible in an object that would have obviously been in motion.Sounds more like an execution. Perhaps he was at first shot unintentionally, but then silenced.
Retired General censured; referral to board to determine possible post-retirement demotion.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/31/tillman.probe/index.html
What amazes me is how the Wichita Eagle assumes that Americans place a higher priority of life on Pat Tillman, then any other American killed in any war.
Friendly fire happens all the time. To accuse any American serviceman of intentionally killing another American, you better have the evidence.
What ever happened to “news” reporting vs unfounded accusations making the headlines?
Max, thus the call by me, and others, for an independent investigation. Three shots within a 2″ pattern suggests (not conclusively) something other than an accident.
After reading the story about how he stood up, tried to wave, and was shot, I’m thinking of another scenario for the tight, 3-shot group. This was not a paper target. The head would have moved. I’m thinking three shooters, all aiming for the head, fired the instant they had a chance. Did they know who he was? Until somebody gets to the truth on that part, we don’t know.
Exactly, Zelda. Thus, the need for a new, independent investigation.
BTW, best regards to Scott.
psst. Zelda. The CIA Did it. Tillman was going to spill the beans about seeing CHeney give Osama Bin Laden 20 million in unmarked bills!
If he was shot with an M-16A2 even on three round burst, the odds of a 2” shot group are amazingly small. The M249 has a cyclic rate between 650 and 850 rpm. At that rate of fire all three rounds could have impacted before noticeable movement of the target.
If the SAW was mounted on its tripod with T&E affixed, this would account for the tight shot group. Best estimate for a shot group that small on a target that small is <50 meters. At that range, the target should have been easy to identify.
Has the caliber of the weapon used been disclosed?
Zelda, the odds of three sharp shooters / snipers firing on the same target at the same time in order to place all rounds in a 2” shot group are even smaller than an M16A2 on burst mode.
“A White House spokesman has said there’s no indication Bush received the warning in the memo written April 29, 2004, by then-Maj. Gen. Stanley McChrystal to Abizaid. ”
Which isn’t to say that bush didn’t receive a memo from someone else (like the recipient of mcchrystal’s memo). You have to nail these bastards down tight in questioning or they will snow you with half truths!
Phantom, perhaps someone else getting the memo and alerting the speech writers is the reason for the lack of comment on the cause of Cpl. Tillman’s death in Mr. Bush’s remarks two days, IIRC, on the same.
Sol, the caliber of the weapon(s) involved has not been disclosed to the best of my knowledge. One of those pesky details, I guess.