The Eagle editorial board recommends a “no” vote on casinos and slots on today’s Opinion pages. It was a difficult decision, as there are good arguments on both sides. But the board didn’t believe that expanded gambling would enhance a city heading in the right direction. A casino wouldn’t bring ruin to Wichita, as some opponents suggest. But, at best, it would be a distraction from the long-term goals of Visioneering Wichita.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
-
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in. -
Contact us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Predestined on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- Agnatha on Democrats hit back on patriotism
- cosmos_originally on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- beber on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- Agnatha on Democrats hit back on patriotism
- TheBorgHunter on Democrats hit back on patriotism
- beber on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- Freebird1971 on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- KSGolfnut on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
- beber on McCain’s surprise pick for veep
80 Comments
A little surprised by the editorial opinion, but you make a good case.
Unfortunately, I believe it’s going to pass.
No/No has been my vote always. I think there are better projects that should have higher priority.
Beautification and enhancing the Arkansas River comes to mind. Some of the most attractive sites in the world are built around rivers.
It’s nature’s gift to Wichita and we simply aren’t doing enough to take care of it and enhance it’s natural beauty.
I would vote YES. If people want to gamble with their own money, I ain’t gonna tell them not to.
Thanks EAGLE editorial board for doing the right thing by recommending “NO” to slots and casinos in Sedgwick County. Even so your expressed reasoning, crediting Visioneering is pretty weak.
The real reason is to reduce seductiveness of gambling opportunities. Gambling would destroy school money for USD 259 young people, college education saving accounts for our college bound students, mortgages for first homes by young couples … yes, even food and next months rent by young single mothers.
My opposition to easy accessability to gambling is my image of a young desperate single mother followed by a couple of small children in tattered clothing. She tentatively enters a Wichita gambling emporium in Delano with a hundred dollar bill. She approaches a gambling machine operator looking much like an unkempt pro-gambling WE blogger.
“Yes, what you want sister?”
“Sir, we are down to our last $100 and we need food, rent and maybe a small Christmas tree in December. Would you put this $100 in that machine with the glitzy flashing lights. We must win.”
“OK sister gimme that money.”
Flash, whirl, bells ringing …then a declining groan.
“Sorry, sister, you lost … now move on.”
The Eagle’s opinion began with whining, the lack of detailed plans from casino developers.
This isn’t like picking location for the arena. County had the right to overlay the arena in different locations. They have Eminent Domain on their side.
A business doesn’t have that land acquiring advantage and can’t give detailed ideas on property they don’t own.
Eagle board is “shocked” with 800 slots at the Greyhound Park.
There could be 1600 slots in the County.
Most people don’t like the idea of slot machines and robotic people sitting in front of those things.
We shouldn’t hear about slot machines before the grand ideas what a casino interior could be like.
People want their imaginations to kick in, what the casino will be like.
Rest of the Eagle’s opinion is just community hopeful ideas.
People don’t have to enter the casino and their families won’t be affected!
Mom against Casino, hey lady, don’t go in and one day your kids will be old enough to make their own decisions.
Casino’s do restrict some gamblers from overspending while gambling.
They have security monitoring watching repeat gamblers.
They learn how gamblers spend their money. They get credit information on gamblers. They understand when someone is throwing their money away impatiently.
They can ask some gamblers to not come back.
No other retail store acts that way with consumers.
We should choose the $300 Million economic development and jobs that will be created, before one dollar gambling by citizens will be spent.
The Eagle doesn’t want an overbearing and garish Casino.
They are negatively affected by looking at the former Wild West World Cowpoke sign.
Would our casino be neon blazing at night? A 24 hour gambling facility, get used to that idea.
They are wrong to believe Sumner County is a better location. I won’t drive out there just for gambling. Sumner County doesn’t off much entertainment value.
Sedgwick County offers more to do if visitors want to skip the casino located here.
Casino will not be in the suburbs the Eagle is bragging about. It won’t ruin a residential block at all.
Maybe the Eagle could lose subscriptions from discretionary dollars going to gambling, if the Casino is located here.
If the question on the ballot was to simply allow gaming in the county I would vote yes. However the question is to allow the Kansas Lottery to operate gaming, which only establishes a monopoly.
No thanks.
It’s obvious in this day and age that the “no-nos” have to fight 100 times more for their position because once again they’ve realized they’re working to restrict freedoms in this county. The exact freedoms our soldiers are fighting for across the globe.
It’s OK that most of those on the “no-no” team have tax-free status at church and in reality would be very upset if that “freedom” was taken away. It continues to be a fact that most of them want their “tax-free” cake and eat it to.
The state is not going to put a “casino” in the middle of anyone’s sanctuary or in the middle of anyone’s home. Individuals will have to make a conscious decision to walk through the doors and spend THEIR hard-earned money.
If you personally don’t want to go “visit” a casino, then don’t. DON’T GO!!! NO ONE is going to force anyone inside the doors of the casino building and MAKE YOU put a nickel in the machine.
Some of us want the type of entertainment that comes with a casino complex: Restaurants, shoppings, entertaining shows, big-name entertainment, top-tier accommodations. Will there be a sanctuary in the middle of a casino? No, those belong somewhere else. Will there be a casino in the middle of the sanctuary? No, because those belong somewhere else.
On a side note, you’ve kept the gay and lesbian community suppressed in this town for a long time. (which, by the way, is why a lot of neighborhoods that would be flipped in other cities are sitting is desolation here in Wichita, but that’s a different problem.) It will be a lot harder for you to keep this type of lifestyle suppressed as well. Wichita WILL BE BETTER if it continues to work its way out of this “Cowtown” phase and into the 21st Century.
Here’s the reality, you’re not hearing as many commercials from the “yes-yes” people because they’ve realized they don’t need to waste their money. Their message is already out. Sedgwick County has made up their minds and sorry “no-no” folks, as with Sunday Liquor Sales, it’s a go.
P.S. The devil didn’t write this.
I would love to read the break down of individual opinions of the editorial board on the gambling issue after reading this Sunday’s lead editorial. And…I’m not being nasty, I’m just so pleasantly surprised!I’m NOT one to tell others what they should or shouldn’t do, I have a hard enough time deciding that for myself. I sometimes resent others doing that to me, unless I ask them for their opinion. To each their own, and the consequences also. But, I strongly object to gambling in our community. Specially state sponsored gaming which is the state preying on it’s citizens. It certainly demonstrates how far government will go to take it’s citizens money.I would not object as strongly to gaming if it’s many problems wouldn’t fall back not only on those actively participating and losing, and that’s what people do, but also on the rest of the community. If the community allowed those who suffer to suffer, and not use other’s resources to mend the damage, it would be one thing, but that is never the case in today’s socialist leaning society.If this passes, and I believe it will, we will be creating significant problems, cheapening our community, allowing the cheapening of our government, then expecting those that want no part of it to bail out those that have made the bad decisions.
Mrage, what is the basis for your statement that casinos turn away problem gamblers?
Asking those “throwing their money away impatiently” to take their business elseshere is not a good business plan for a casino, I would think.
Actually, all casinos have aggressive programs to limit pathological gamblers. In some states, casinos are prosecuted for allowing gamblers who have been excluded from gaming facilities by regulators, and those that have elected as a part of treatment, to ask to be excluded.
Drunks are disruptive at bars, and are denied service, casinos know that a compulsive gambler is bad for business too. They are disruptive, emotionally distraught at times, and don’t belong in a setting that feeds their addiction.
They train staff to identify those with gambling addiction, and intervene.
Notwithstanding the claims, most credible studies place casino revenues from problem and pathological gamblers at 5-15%.
And even using the highest estimates, the actual number of pathological gamblers withing a community is less than 2% of the population.
Compare that to alcoholics, at more than 8%. Where’s the bigger problem?
I highly doubt Mrage will be able to cite even one magazine article or newspaper story that backs his claims.
What else should we expect from Wichita’s most illiterate, rambling, nonsensical, poster?
Except that he has inside knowledge that no one else knows anyting of, and that he has a plan for how everyone’s money should be spent for his pleasure.
To top it off, he isn’t even asahamed. At least Joe Williams, deep inside his “libertarian” heart, must know that his support for the arena and other big-government projects is contrary to freedom. That he acts contrary is a measure of his character.
But Mrage isn’t smart enough to realize there is a difference.
Actually, all casinos have aggressive programs to limit pathological gamblers. In some states, casinos are prosecuted for allowing gamblers who have been excluded from gaming facilities by regulators, and those that have elected as a part of treatment, to ask to be excluded.
Drunks are disruptive at bars, and are denied service, casinos know that a compulsive gambler is bad for business too. They are disruptive, emotionally distraught at times, and don’t belong in a setting that feeds their addiction.
They train staff to identify those with gambling addiction, and intervene.
Notwithstanding the claims, most credible studies place casino revenues from problem and pathological gamblers at 5-15%.
And even using the highest estimates, the actual number of pathological gamblers withing a community is less than 2% of the population.
Compare that to alcoholics, at more than 8%. Where’s the bigger problem?
Did the lottery cheapen our community? Did it bring about a bad image to our community that lottery tickets are available in every convenient and grocery store in our area?
How about liquor stores on every street corner? Does that make our community look bad?
I would agree with the Editorial Board that it would be a bad thing if a downtown Casino becomes a focal point of downtown. It clearly shouldn’t.
But for me, I am a bit envious of other cities downtowns as theirs always looks modern and growing, while ours looks aged stagnated.
While I’m not saying that Wichita should look like New York or Chicago, but it just looks so incomplete. Like it’s missing something or that economic advancement and progressiveness slipped right past us. And I think that does more damage to the psych of our youth than anything else.
I have had many of my friends move away, probably never ever to return back here. The ones that I still are in contact with, and when I discuss with them about Wichita, it usually always comes down to Wichita’s image. And physical image is a large part of that. They don’t think Wichita is modern, because we have nothing modern to show them.
I was talking to a friend just yesterday who was in Baltimore. He was telling me how nice downtown Baltimore was, and then he proceeded to jest with me (because he knows I love Wichita), by making the remarks just soon after he was talking about Baltimore by saying “Wichita doesn’t have $hit going for it, does it?”
I did explain to him that we are putting a downtown arena in, we are working on getting a new airport terminal and etc.
But the main point is, in regards to downtown Wichita, that we only put a mid-rise building in downtown once a decade at best. While other cities are putting more up, even those with around the population base we have. Omaha for instance just put up a 600+ft skyscraper just a few years ago.
Although we are improving. A long time friend of mine came back in town, who now lives in LA, just last month. He hasn’t been here for years, but when he passed by the Waterfront, he was shocked. He told me “Wichita doing something?”
So for me the casino vote has much more to do with gambling. Especially a downtown one. It will mean that we can finally, once again, build a high rise in Wichita and make it look more modern. And I mean much more than the Hyatt, which looks like a pigeon coup, (the Hyatt should have been all glass like many of their other ones). And another selfish reason, for myself, I believe a downtown Casino will greatly add to the possibility of the Peerless Tower being built.
And I understand that many people that live here don’t want Wichita to go in a modern direction. They want it to remain small or shrink, they don’t want anything new. They believe that it’s just fine the way it is and they say it’s a family place. Well I hate to tell them, but modern cities are much more than a good place to raise a family, they have tons of amenities, modern skyline and image, and a community pride like you wouldn’t believe. While we may have one ingredient, we are missing the rest and as a result, our youths are leaving. And by Wichita Visioneering, that creates a half a billion dollars, yes, $500,000,000 in net loss investment in our community every single year.
The casino isn’t the answer or the catalyst to jump start our city into modernity. But it will help. At least in structure and amenities.
Vote Yes!
I was quite surprised to see the Eagle go against WDDC on the casino. They have been 100% FOR each and every project WDDC has come up with for downtown.
I noticed that one of the reasons the eagle came out against the casino is one of those that I said 2 weeks ago would sink it - uncertainty of location. We are being told to “trust” the politicians to choose the best location for the region. Unfortunately, trust is in VERY short supply these days. So, the Park City haters might be worried that PC would get it. Those of us who do not believe this would be good for downtown worry about THAT location. Even with the Canadians pulling out of their C-II location such concerns remain.
I think the best possible locatin might be Britt Brown - however that is a non-starter because of conditions set by the County Commission. In general I would like a site in Sedgwick County NOT in downtown. Also NOT in another city.
That would give the County 2%. The WDDC crowd would whine that the City would get nothing; that is not really true. Remember; Sedgwick County will have to cover deficits at the Old Town Arena. Those are likely at $2 milion per year. So, Wichita WOULD get that % of the take - via WDDC’s Arena.
All that said, my prediction stands. I think a number of factors are at play that will lead to the referendum failing. And, WDDC and their crowd will have nobody to blame but themselves.
I am not one to tell others what to do with their money, and I enjoy gambling on occasion. But this vote smells like last week’s fish.
We are being promised a ‘destination’ casino, but there is no guarantee that we won’t get a shabby looking steel building full of bad carpet, stale smoke and old slot machines.
Sedgwick County voters have to vote up or down to allow a casino, but will have absolutely no say in the location or design. “Don’t worry your pretty little heads” an appointed board will make all those hard decisions, just like the Arena.Restaurants, theaters and stores are going to be hurt by the discretionary income flowing to the state owned casino and then out of state. The county would make more by raising the mill levy.
Moderate Republican – do you really think the state is going to prosecute anyone that wants to enter a casino they own? The state wants the money.
The casinos do not have to turn anyone away because the state will own the casinos. The state will give a little bit of money to deal with those addicted but that is all.
The state is not going to turn people away from their casinos.
Thank you Eagle editoral board! I am surprised! I hope the voters will agree and vote NO!!
I thought the logic of the editorial board is weak. I am no fan of gambling but it is a recreational option that other communities have, and I think broadening the recreational base of the city is a good one. I thought the articles on this topic from this very newspaper made the case very well. Casinos are not a major boost to the communities, but they aren’t major drags either. When it is a wash, there is really no reason to vote against it.
What is the big deal about a casino being here? Wichita already has prostitution, drugs, gangs, alcohol and gambling addictions.
Wichita does not seem to mind the multiple ‘gentlemens clubs’ that permeate the television advertising on a nightly basis.
So exactly why is a casino bad, again?
Sure vote no. Give the other parts of Kansas something to pull from.
Preferably Central or Western Kansas.
EAgle - I’m surprised, given your unqualified support for the Downtown Arena moneypit.
But pleasantly surprised. You’re right; on balance, this is a ‘no.”
I’ve said before why, I won’t go into it now.
Congratulations, Eagle. You see the light, and show some backbone, at least this time.
Similarly to sunday liquor sales, I don’t need the God Squad telling me what I need or don’t need. I’ll be voting yes.
All you people who don’t want casinos here should vote YES on wide-open gambling! Then, when a dozen or so casinos go belly-up from lack of business, nobody will want to build any more, and the whole issue becomes moot.
I’m voting YES
my family are all voting yes and that is over 55 votes YES
http://www.citizenlink.org/FOSI/gambling/cog/A000002184.cfm
A few things to consider about the societal implications of the gambling industry.
_______
“*Gambling surveys in the state of Iowa showed a marked increase in the number of problem and pathological gamblers after the introduction of casinos. In 1989, only 1.7 percent of Iowa adults showed indications of having a serious gambling problem; by 1995, the percentage had more than tripled to 5.4 percent.
*Dr. Rob Hunter, founder and director of the Charter Hospital Gambling Treatment Center in Las Vegas and a nationally recognized expert on gambling addiction, estimates that 15 percent of casino workers have a compulsive gambling problem.”
_____
So basically, we will be creating many additional compulsive gamblers who didn’t know they had a problem until they had easy access to gamblling.
______
http://www.doctorsforlifeinternational.com/issues/gambling.cfm
So what are the consequences of pathological gambling? This list from the referenced website:
_______
* There is a twenty times higher suicide rate among pathological gamblers.* One third of pathological gamblers are women.* Forty-six percent of pathological gamblers borrow on, or use up the cash value of, their insurance policy. Fifty-two percent surrender their policy.* Forty-two percent of 14 year olds gamble. Forty-nine percent of 15 year olds gamble. Sixty-three percent of 16 year olds gamble. Seventy-one percent of 17 year olds gamble. Seventy-six percent of 18 year olds gamble. Eighty-eight percent of 19 year olds gamble* Eleven percent of gambler’s wives attempt suicide.* Twenty-five percent of children of pathological gamblers have significant behavioural, or adjustment problems.* Sixty-five percent of wives of pathological gamblers give their spouses their personal savings to gamble or pay debts.* Forty-seven percent of pathological gamblers abuse alcohol. Forty-six percent are depressed. Thirty-five percent have insomnia. Thirty-five percent feel faint or dizzy. Twenty-nine percent have headaches. These figures are only slightly less for the spouses of gamblers.* Sixty-five percent of pathological gamblers commit crimes to finance gambling: 34% check forgery, 31 % civil loan fraud, 30% embezzlement, 20% forgery, 19% tax evasion, 12% tax fraud.
_______
So, while gambling may be seen as an easy way to raise money, it comes at a very steep price for some.
outlander - I would counter by notong that gambling is already here. So, the question then ecomes how many more addicts would it increase by having it closer. My take on that is that having it outside of downtown (Sedgwick or Sumner County) is about the same as current conditions (Oklahoma)
Don’t know which way to vote on this one. I’m tempted to vote yes just BECAUSE the fundies want me to vote no.
J R - wouldn’t it be priceless to see a casino complex go into WWW right next to Fox?
Or at the remains of Hee haw holy roller land? heh heh.
I have to wonder if these preachers who so are against the casino is just trying to keep the money coming into their church. After all, these phoney church people will be the first ones in line when the casino opens its doors.
I’ve got to side with the conservatives on this one.
A casino adds no value and only sucks money out of our economy and sends it to some rich guy’s bank account . . . in another city.
Dumb.
A waste of time, a waste of money . . . nothing but a waste.
Oops.
One in the same WWW and hee haw land. Got mixed up.
Put it next to the place with the great big cross. Then people can find it easier. : )
Im voting No/Yes…
No to Casino, Yes to Slots @ track…
Ben! I thought you were voting “No”. So how can you say it would be good to have in near WWW or even on the land that WWW is now on? If you vote “no” that means it turns south, not north.
Anyways! Some of you that are on the fences and are known Democrats. The Sedgwick County Democrat Party has endorsed and is encouraging it’s members to vote, “Yes, Yes”.
Just to let you know, just in case you’re still on the fence.
About the “no, no” Campaign. Wichita Eagle writer Mark McCormick believes your campaign and the people behind it is going to back fire on you. Based on the intangible argumentative points that they are making.
Also! KWCH scientific polls done on the Casino issue shows the majority is going to pass it.
You have to look at the people behind that campaigns also. For instance on the “No” side, we have Donna Lippoldt who is the Director of Operations for the Vote No campaign.
A long time high up member of Operation Rescue and also the Director of Heartbeat Ministries. What is Heartbeat Ministries? But what they call “sidewalk counseling”. A confrontation tactic they used “counsel” women who are going to abortion clinics. Basically they are the group who stays on the sidewalk at abortion clinics and yell at women getting abortion that they are going to “hell” and “Dr. Tiller needs to die of cancer” bullshit. Remember them in the news? They are the ones out there and it’s being directed By Donna.
What does she do for Operation Rescue? She is in charge of the entire “Truth Trucks” fleet, which she deploys nationwide. What are truth trucks? But all those vans you see with large pictures of abortion fetuses. When ever you see them, Donna is behind it.
She has also sued the City of Wichita back in 2001, when the city refused to grant her ten parade permits. She said it was to commemorate the 10th anniversary of the massive Operation Rescue protest of 1991. They City denied the permits, because she requested that the permits grant Operation Rescue the right to requests for compensatory damages from the City of Wichita if something were to happen. The City didn’t want to be liable, of course, so they denied it. It was basically a plan trick for them to possibly sue the City for millions of dollars.
Not including that Donna is also a campaign worker for Phil Kline.
Mark Khars, who is the Chair of the No Campaign. Who was once the general counsel (lawyer) for Kansas Family Research Institute that is funded and controlled by Focus on the Family. A former Sedgwick County Republican Party Chair and so much more. But I’m getting bored writing all this stuff.
Just make your own conclusions. Vote whatever you want.
Outlander - if compulsive gamblers are going to be victimized by the casino being in Wichita, these people are already compulsive gamblers. Kansas City, Topeka and Oklahoma are not that far away and if a compulsive gambler is looking for gambling - they will drive to get to it.
So your argument really does not hold much water. And, besides, isn’t the real losers if the casino locates in Wichita going to be the bingo parlors already in Wichita? Who owns those and then we will know why casinos have had a hard time getting their foot into Kansas.
Joe! I’m still undecided. I have said so. Try reading what I write; an very important part of communication is paying attention. You will note that at 3:57 I raised points that would FAVOR a yes vote.
I would point out to you that you attempts to link anyone who has doubts about this as being related to Kahrs, OR or whatever is rather insulting. I asked you a question on the other related thread which I will repeate here.
Based on your logic of connection if I vote YES for casino then I am automatically tied to the Arena crowd since they (and you) seem to be the biggest cheer-leaders for the casino.
So, I have a Catch-22: Vote NO and I am one with Kahrs; vote YES and I am one with Joe! and WDDC.
Maybe Tony has the best idea - no on casino and yes on slots.
Joe! When the NCAA b-ball tourney started last year I PREDICTED that UCLA would not take it all. However, as a UCLA alum I WANTED them to. You see Joe!, there is a difference between PREDICTION and WANT. I have PREDICTED it will fail; I am still undecided on how I will vote.
As for what I PREFER: a casino in unincorporated Sedgwick County. Reasons given above at 10:19 AM. Joe! - you might note that was not advocating a NO vote either.
Hypothetical Question for you guys…
Lets say the No Casino guys are right and there is over 150 Million in economic losses due to a casino if it were put into downtown. Check that, lets go for half, 75 Million in losses…
Income from the Casino in Wichita is 2.3 Million and 2.3 for Sedgwick county. So, that’s 4.6 Million.
How is 4.6 Million more than 75 Million?
Would it make more since to do what will keep more money in town? i.e. no casino in Wichita?
If the casino is built in Sumner county, than Sedgwick county still gets money but doesnt have the rest of the burden of having it within its borders… Wouldn’t that make more since?
Tony - problem with your reasoning. The costs arise from the citizens gambling - bankruptcies, theft, etc etc etc. How much? Who knows?
Thing is; this is all happening anyway. People are going to Oklahoma, Topeka, etc. So, a local casino might be closer but will that really make a difference?
My take is that if it is DOWNTOWN the answer is yes. Think about a business partner hitting the slots during lunch. But, put it out a bit. Then that is less likely. Thus my preferred site as noted above.
Hey Ben…
It sounds like your supporting the Casino… MAke up your mind…
U sure you and Joe arnt on the same side here???
HAHAHAHA!!!
I’m just trying to sort it all out. My big problem is just what would I be voting for? Can I trust the judgement of the same people who are behind the arena?
I’ll end up on whatever side the information leads me to.
I dont trust the State/local governments to do what is best for the community. I think Charlie Chandler, Russ Meyer and Clark Bashton have done more for this community than a Casino will…
Hence my vote, Yes/No… Yes Slots @ Track, No Casino….
I think that would be NO/YES - batter check the ballot. That is where I am leaning too.
picky picky…
It’s a rare day that I agree with the Eagle editorial staff…
But, this is one.
No/No.
I would vote to turn the Arena into the Casino to get it off the tax payers backs.
You could vote no and tell the legislature to go back to the drawing board with this issue.
They should make this a statewide vote and allow anyone that wants a casino to build one. Forget this monopoly stuff.
If revenue is what this state wants then we should also legalize prostitution just like Nevada. We could tax them, license and fee them. This should generate a lot of revenue and make sex safer for everyone.
Tony - my only point is that we need to make sure we know which question is which. Especially since I am leaning the asme way you are.
Ben and Tony, I think I’m where you two are on these issues. Still trying to learn as much as I can on the “facts”, as opposed to the hyperbole generated by both sides in their advertising, etc. I, like Ben, am troubled by the siting question. I recognize that we’re facing many if not most of the social costs being set out by the opponents, given the proximity of casinos, etc. to Wichita. I’m also of the opinion that a “destination casino” just isn’t going to happen here at this point in time, although the potential for the same existed, IMHO, some 10 years ago.
VT, all, so if the casinos go to Sumner County, wont Wichita, as the major population center, STILL incur the bulk of the so called social costs?
If the vote is no, wont Wichita still be getting most of the pain and almost none of the benefits?
I notice most of your legislative delegation is being bewwy bewwy quiet.
Afraid of more “follow the money” exposure? It will be interesting to see the next round of ethics reporting…
Yep, farmgirl, you hit the nail on the head. I just don’t see a material difference in the money coming to deal with these issues whether the same is in Sumner County or Sedgwick County, though. I suspect, but of course don’t know, that the majority of employees of a casino will live in Wichita/Sedgwick County, for example, even though the same is sited in Sumner County.
Another topic. The Prairie Rose is on the auction block, together with the family farm, etc. This is an apparent reaction to SCKED filing to lift the stay. Now, on the Chapter 11 schedules, SCKED is shown as holding $200,000 debt, collateralized by the the real estate and equipment listed in its motion. I’ve no idea of the other debt, etc., against this property, which is not a part of WWW, but rather collateral for the SCKED financing. Looks like excess collateral on its face. If so, then the Etheredges have an opportunity to realize some personal funds from the auction. What do you think, farmgirl, or, for that matter, anyone else out there?
Gosh VT, I’m flattered that YOU want my opinion on the subject. Since I’m not a lawyer and dont play one on tv…:)
And of course, not knowing doesnt stop me from having an opinion!
My guess? SCKEDD provided early money, and got the best collateral. I would wonder why there isnt a second or third on the land. I’m guessing there is, and SCKEDD is thinking the firstest there gets the mostest.
I cant imagine that every damn document didnt also carry a “personal” guarantee of some sort. There may be “excess funds” in terms of SCKEDD and their collateral, but it will quickly be eaten up by any “personal” guarantees.
I’m not as familiar, thank godess, with bankruptcy law as I am with ED deals!
What I am disappointed to not see coming out of the gambling pro/con debate is a talk about the Governments’ role in ‘protecting’ its citizens.I want a public debate about whether the Government should tell people whether or not to gamble. I want to see people talking about what kinds of gambling are good and should be allowed and what kinds should be prohibited, and of course the Why’s for each.
Yep, farmgirl, you and I agree, FWIW. I suspect there are personal guaranties on damn near everything. From the initial schedules, there didn’t appear to be any cross-collateralization on the various secured debts for equipment, etc. at WWW, but as we both know, these were preliminary filings. But, before the guaranties are realized upon there will be many interesting filings, etc., in the Chapter 11 case.
It was because of your familiarity with ED deals I asked your thoughts, for you would know about the guaranties, etc.,and ya know, it just seemed better for that type of information to be presented by a “non-lawyer”. Thanks.
What I am disappointed to not see coming out of the gambling pro/con debate is a talk about the Governments’ role in ‘protecting’ its citizens.I want a public debate about whether the Government should tell people whether or not to gamble. I want to see people talking about what kinds of gambling are good and should be allowed and what kinds should be prohibited, and of course the Why’s for each.
d’oh
HA Vaughn! Glad to provide the non lawyer translation
I just have to repeat though that I am only guessing.
The cross collateralization? That’s why this is going to be such a goat rope to settle. If there WERE cross collateralization, it would be easier.
But all these interlocking corporations and dbas also give me the willies. I’d take one look at THAT and think to myself, “esta no bueno”. It’s either deceptive or stupid. And both are hard to unravel.
Ann Richards used to say, “if you cant ’splain it so my 90 year old mama can understand it, you caint explain it”.
Same way with all these financial deals. I’ve seen e.d. folks and city managers, etc. go to meetings to get public guarentees, and they speak such mumbo jumbo about “complicated finaning arrangements” that the city council or whatever just says “well ok, if you say so”.
Gonna hafta ask someday how all that “plausible deniability” is going to work when the piper is finally paid.
If these kind of public private deals cant be diagramed like and sentence and explained to everyone’s mama how it works…
…then they need to go back to the drawing board and start paring down until they can.
At LEAST before they start dipping into the public till.
And once again, I’m not assigning mal intent. Sometimes these deals grow like a house underconstruction where you start adding on more rooms and jerry rigging the roof and pouring a little extra concrete…
…until you end up with the Winchester Mansion!
heheheh brian, well, it was a post worth repeating
I also think that is the essential question. Seems like the same folks who whine about the nanny state restricting unfettered and unregulated capitalism are ALSO the same folks who still think prohibition works.
It didnt work with alcohol. It doesnt work with drugs. It doesnt seem to work on gambling. And it DAMN sure hasnt worked with sex.
So… why do we promote “prohibition” for ANYTHING?
Catch-22 question for Joe!
“Joe - you present me with an interesting Catch-22. By your logic if I vote FOR the casino then I am voting WITH the Arena crowd and therefore I am voting FOR the arena crowd.
However, I am NOT for the arena crowd. So how can I vote for the casino without being FOR the arena crowd?
Posted by: Ben | July 21, 2007 at 10:13 PM ”
Giver Joe!’s penchant for guilt by association on the NO side how do I deal with it on the YES side?
You are not guilty by association, only if you don’t agree with the No side organizers argument that the Casino is immoral and will bring wide spread economic disaster. If you have other reasons for voting No, then that is something else.
But if you agree with the Organizing Members, like Donna Lippodlt and Mark Khars arguments, then you are associated with them.
Plus! You said “Park City Haters” will vote against it, because they don’t want a Casino in Park City. I’m sorry! But there isn’t a single person in our area that is going to do that or has said that.
It’s Dee Stuart whom I am critical about. Many people who don’t like Wichita, often times use Park City as an example of a “progressive” community and that Wichita should be a suburb of Park City and that Park City is a “real” city.
I just beg to differ on that. Because I know Park City isn’t progressive and it hasn’t done anything to improve itself. People criticize Wichita for giving companies IRB’s, but Park City does the same, but in Park City’s case, their ventures have failed. Plus their hostile take over of the Dogtrack was uncalled for, and the courts have ruled it was illegal what they did.
But I don’t care if Park City gets a casino or not. It doesn’t bother me one bit. I would rather have it downtown, but I would settle it being in Park City.
Joe Williams, when you agree with the Chamber of Commerce on almost everything, and when you agree with the Sedgwick County Commission, what does that say about the folks you associate with, and by your own argument, agree with?
That’s why I call you out as a phony libertarian.
You are every bit as statist as the Eagle editorial board, most of our city council members, and most of the county commission.
You may ignore this and decide not to respond, but everyone knows this.
Thanks for the clarification Joe! As you know (even though you seemed not to last night) I am still undecided. My issues are NOT the ‘moral’ ones Kahrs has but rather siting. As I have said; my preferred site would be unincorporated Sedg County for reasons noted above.
One point I have made and would make to Kahrs et.al. is that whatever ’social costs’ there are exist already with Oklahoma etc.
It’s too bad the County has set ‘deal-killers’ on the Coliseum site for a Casino.
Thanks for the clarification Joe! As you know (even though you seemed not to last night) I am still undecided. My issues are NOT the ‘moral’ ones Kahrs has but rather siting. As I have said; my preferred site would be unincorporated Sedg County for reasons noted above.
One point I have made and would make to Kahrs et.al. is that whatever ’social costs’ there are exist already with Oklahoma etc.
It’s too bad the County has set ‘deal-killers’ on the Coliseum site for a Casino.
Thanks for the clarification Joe! As you know (even though you seemed not to last night) I am still undecided. My issues are NOT the ‘moral’ ones Kahrs has but rather siting. As I have said; my preferred site would be unincorporated Sedg County for reasons noted above.
One point I have made and would make to Kahrs et.al. is that whatever ’social costs’ there are exist already with Oklahoma etc.
It’s too bad the County has set ‘deal-killers’ on the Coliseum site for a Casino.
aargh!
Joe - Park City’s BIG mistake was issuing GO bonds to support WWW instead of just underwriting IRBs. That puts them on the hook.
My word!
Been has made a three peat!
Just vote no, let’s protect the people from themselves. After all, if we were to allow bingo to be played in Wichita, we would have a bunch of people addicted to gambling, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases. We also need to be aware that lotteries are evil, we would have a bunch of people addicted to gambling, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases…If we were to sell Liqour on Sunday we would have a bunch of people addicted to alcohol, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases…
So said Chicken Little.
Hey how about this for a concept, lets all vote to get rid of the lottery, it does no good for our town, or our state. We will be more than happy to pay more taxes to cover the revenue losses. Oh yeah, and that Sunday sales thing, I’m sure it doesn’t add to the state or local coffers at all.. Let’s do away with it also since some people might be affected.
Yep, that casino won’t help the state or local govt one bit. Keep right on hiking the mil levy, I love paying taxes! I’m sure the city doesn’t need an extra 2 or 3 million dollars for the budget every year. I know the state doesn’t need another 23+ million a year. After all, all of us love giving them our money. Oh yeah one other thing, the majority of us don’t have all the tax right offs that the priviledged wealthy have.
The casino can’t be allowed to bankrupt us, that is the governments job.
Just vote no, let’s protect the people from themselves. After all, if we were to allow bingo to be played in Wichita, we would have a bunch of people addicted to gambling, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases. We also need to be aware that lotteries are evil, we would have a bunch of people addicted to gambling, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases…If we were to sell Liqour on Sunday we would have a bunch of people addicted to alcohol, would see an increase in crime, our courts would be overrun with bankruptcy cases…
So said Chicken Little.
Hey how about this for a concept, lets all vote to get rid of the lottery, it does no good for our town, or our state. We will be more than happy to pay more taxes to cover the revenue losses. Oh yeah, and that Sunday sales thing, I’m sure it doesn’t add to the state or local coffers at all.. Let’s do away with it also since some people might be affected.
Yep, that casino won’t help the state or local govt one bit. Keep right on hiking the mil levy, I love paying taxes! I’m sure the city doesn’t need an extra 2 or 3 million dollars for the budget every year. I know the state doesn’t need another 23+ million a year. After all, all of us love giving them our money. Oh yeah one other thing, the majority of us don’t have all the tax right offs that the priviledged wealthy have.
The casino can’t be allowed to bankrupt us, that is the governments job.
I have an “inside” connection that has told me that a large Casino operator is trying to back out on a multi-plane, multi-year order because of the Cessna CEO taking to the airwaves urging Wichitians to vote no.
Anyone else heard this?
Sounds like a rumor to me FF.
Would be a silly approach to take as no one knows if the Casino measure will pass and no one knows who the Casino contracts will be awarded.
Why is the funding for the VOTE NO on casinos primarily coming from the Indian Casinos in Kansas and Oklahoma?
Kansas,
It’s not a rumor actually. From what I hear, some flambouyant Casinoaire exploded when someone told him about the commercials being aired.
IT DOES NOT MAKE SENCE for somebody in his position to be taking a stance on this, it’s very risky!
That is the problem with having huge corporate benefactors in the community. Yes, the loss of their generosity would be great, but with it comes strings. All of the sudden they start wanting to call the shots.
I am opposing casinos for moral reasons as well as first hand experience of how damaging gambling can be. I ask our city father’s to be creative and innovative to attract good businesses and industry to our community. Industry and businesses that would build up our community and not tear it down.
That the problem Karen! You are asking people to do it for you.
People of Wichita shouldn’t stand by and wait or hope that city leaders do something. Businesses come, because people build businesses.
The largest employers and longest standing employers in town are all started by people here in Wichita. Coleman, Cessna, LearJet, Beech, Koch and so on.
It’s about going out there and making it happen. Not wishing a blank canvass will come to save the day.
I’m opting for the voting lever to pull rather than the slot machine lever.
Well…that touch screen thing anyway.
Call them what they are. Entertainment for those who like to gamble.A poor tax, etc.The idea that these are someone going to attract something (business, conventions, etc.) when umpteen communities surrounding us already have them is ridiculous.Casinos won’t set Wichita apart, they will make us like everyone else. Big deal.I’m not sure how I am going to vote yet.We already have so much legal gambling already with the dog track, bingo, lottery, etc. I don’t know if the casinos are going to make a difference or not.
myboyzdad. You’re right! It won’t.
But it will bring them back from Oklahoma.
On Aug. 1, 2007 Jim Schuster, CEO of Hawker Beechcraft Corp., sent an email to all employees urging them to vote no against bringing a casino and slot machines to Wichita and Sedgwick County. Mr. Schuster says in his letter that “preserving our community’s values and character is critically important to the long term success of Hawker Beechcraft.” I wonder what happened to Mr. Schuster’s values and character when he stood on the tailgate of a truck and announced that all 400 of the wire-harness jobs were going to stay here in Wichita because of the hard work and dedication of the employees in that department, yet a year later nearly all 400 of those jobs were shipped south of the border to Mexico. For him to now appear concerned about this community is a slap in the face to every one of those people. Expanded gambling in Wichita is a huge issue and each of us should become educated about it. All I would say is be very careful who you listen to. I can assure you that there are others just like Jim Schuster that care more about the almighty dollar than the workers that create that dollar.