Maybe, as filmmaker Michael Moore claims in “Sicko,” the French really do have it better than Americans — at least in the hours of vacation they enjoy. Among other generous benefits, every French worker is guaranteed at least a month of paid vacation each year.
“The United States is the only advanced economy in the world that does not guarantee its workers paid vacation,” according to a recent study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research.
In America, the average is two weeks of vacation for full-time workers — and 1 in 10 full-timers get no vacation whatsoever.
Can’t we do better than that?
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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181 Comments
The average US worker actually gets more then two weeks of vacation, you have to account for all the holidays too.Besides I can care less about trying to keep up with the Joneses ideal.
Now that`s what we europeans call modern day slavery. I am so happy not to live in this sliding dictatorship.
You’re doing a disservice by pointing these things out. I’m an American living in the Netherlands and the last thing I want is more Americans moving over here to take advantage of all the benefits.
I don’t want to see more fat people wearing jogging clothes who do not actually jog.
You should not count the holidays, dear Wiserman. In Europe you normally get 4/5 weeks off (paid) PLUS the holidays, such as Christmas, New Year’s day, National or religious festivities and so on.
I worked around European workers and I can see why Europe’s worker productivity is lower than that in the U.S. They have so many “off time” hours and so many government controlled breaks, they only do exactly what they have to do – no more – no less.
When I was stationed in Europe, the GI’s were constantly having to take up the slack when the Civilian European workers went home or on vacation. The military is a 7 day a week/24 hour day job.
That concept never fit into the mindset of the European worker. When it comes to quit, take a break or go on vacation, they felt no obligation to finish the job and just grab their clutch wallets and exit the door for home.
It’s not a wonder they can’t provide for their own National Defense when they would wanting to be getting their “breaks” on schedule.
I wonder if they ever have to fight a war if their enemies will recognize their break and vacation time? :)
I read a study recently that said American workers don’t take all of their vacation time if they get 3-4 weeks of vacation a year. Vacation time not taken and carried over is a liability on a company’s books.
If anything the USA is actually going the opposite way. People get LESS time now than what they used to. I read where most people used to get the Friday after Thanksgiving but fewer and fewer people get it every year now. It had got so bad that many of the resort areas like Orlando now depend on foreigners to meet the bottom line. Myself I cannot complain because I get 4 weeks and 3 days plus holidays. That is more than most folks get.
Based on subject matter of the study it must be from a left-leaning think tank.
Besides that, it is empty-headed to just spit out ‘we need more paid vacation time’. Without knowing how much a person should have (which cannot be quantified) you have no baseline to say more or less is needed.
On top of that why not give workers unpaid vacation time? I know workers who only get paid while on the job. It doesn’t stop them from taking about 4+ weeks a year off.
Vacation ? paid days off ? health insurance ? LOL Ive been a blue coller laborer for 30 years and I have never seen any of these things . I have had those carrots held before me but only to be laid off the week before I become “elagable” for them . I have had to work 2 jobs most of my life becouse emplyers dont want you to work full time least they have to provide insurance and stuff . ……… How do I go about being deported to France ?Hell were I live its cheaper and easyer for a ileagle alien to get into our “state” collage than it is for me a citizan …………….America the great oh give me a break
I do not recall seeing a study stating that American workers productivity was better than the French ones.
Bush go You to Iraq to fight!Bush have to resign.
Bush have to resign. RESIGN. RESIGN.
Our country is simply run in the interests of the rich and until we do something about that the majority of Americans (if not the world) are in for a bad time.
I am from the Netherlands, and if I have to believe this story “One of the lucky ones with so much holiday.” In Holland we have 7 days of Holiday every year(1 New Year, 1 Easter, 1 Queens Day, 1 Ascension, 1 Whitsun and 2 Xmas). I am not complaining allthough in European terms 7 days is a few and there is a big gap between Whitsun(end may/begin june) until Xmas.
Additional, I get 25 days off work every year, which I think is too much, the same as I believe that only 2 weeks in the USA is too little. But the same goes for all kinds of social security, I pay 40% taxes on my income for this outrageous social system. A little more liberty, competition and less state gouvernance would not hurt the Dutch. Worst of all, the Dutch have gotten quite used to it, f.e. the Dutch youth have responded in a poll that they would never work anymore if they would not need to.(they were the only European youth giving this answer).
Let’s just say, both Netherlands (too much) as the US(too little) and we both have much reason to complain, but at least we have the luxury of complaining, cause we have jobs and holidays. There are many countries that have it worse.
Willem
It’s kind of hard for employers to pay for a vacation when the national economy sucks. The French can, sure, they are not spending their money to fight a war in Iraq. So, what do you want? The glory of the war in Iraq, or a paid vacation?
Just look at all the time Americans get off between layoffs!
As an American who moved to Australia years ago, I have enjoyed 4 weeks paid holidays a year as well as a generous amount of no-work paid holidays. Plus if one stays with an employer for 10 years there is 3 months fully paid “Long Service Leave” vacations. Of course we (like all civilized nations of the world) have free universal medical care from cradle to the grave paid for by 1.5% tax on our all our incomes. This includes going to a Psychologist or Social Worker on a doctor’s referral. Almost all Medicine costs are controlled by the government so we pay next to nothing for all we need and are asked at the Pharmacy if we want a generic (even cheaper) brand of the same medicine! If out of work for any reason in Australia (sick, disabled, single parent, elderly, etc), there’s a government money dole system and the government will help you find a job. Low crime rate, no street beggars,can walk through virtually any neighborhood at night alone and feel relatively safe, legal brothels (very little AIDS, no street prostitutes or pimps, Free clean needles for drug users) no smoking indoors most places, every Citizen is required to vote so we all take an interest in every aspect of local, state and federal governance, easy to get government loans for University schooling, hardly any murders and very few people own a gun. Those who do have to keep them in a locked tight safe, if in a shooters club. Come on down, weather’s fine and lifestyle is great! Citizenship granted after 2 years of residency and one can still retain one’s American Citizenship!
This thread is based on a small portion of an article in The American Prospect Liberal Intelligence 7/19/07. In the headline of the article is the phrase, Blame it on individualism. Think about that for a minute. Individualism is something bad? Why? The writer further comments that America is the richest of the nations, compared to Britain, France, and Germany. Therefore, the writer assumes, America should be able to pay for workers to have a month long vacation every year. Hmm . . . that means the government has to amass the dollars to pay the workers with before they take their hiatus. Where are those dollars going to come from? Oh yes, the workers’ paychecks during the rest of the year! And since individualism is viewed in the negative, and “collectivism” is the preferred way to go, it should be that everyone who is not a worker gets a month of paid vacation yearly too. Maybe America is richer by far than these other countries because it has workers who actually work! After all, someone has to put in the time and dollars to support all the social programs in place (Medicaid, subsidized housing, subsidized school lunches, Vision cards to buy food, and monthly checks to cover the bills for everything else.) For those of you who think it is OK to pay your child care provider, or lawn service, or cellular provider for a month of service, WITHOUT getting the service, please feel free to move to a socialist or communist government country.
====Quote:”It’s not a wonder they can’t provide for their own National Defense when they would wanting to be getting their “breaks” on schedule.
I wonder if they ever have to fight a war if their enemies will recognize their break and vacation time? :)”===What’s this all about. What does Defense have to do with holidays? I could not care less about my National Defense if the alternative is, to live in a country where brave young men get injured or killed because they believe they are fighting for democracy, while only some big fat cats in Washington get richer and richer. My sympathy for them and their families, but shame on those people who make war for oil and contract for their companies. I hope Iraq will be free and democratic one day(so these soldiers did not die for nothing) and that you get a government who keeps an eye on health, education and social security, instead of spending a billion a day for a war, which even an idiot like me can see that Bush is losing. Could it be that in 20 years, the Middle-East is more dangerous than ever before, the US citizens look at the ruins of their health, environment and their sky-high debts, and that a new giant economy like China or India is threatening their global position. So call us cowards, or holiday-addicts, or whatever you want to, but I am glad that Holland is small and smart enough not to join this National Defense madness. And I don’t think Bush will resign, not even blink when he looks in the mirror. That’s a pitty.
Willem
Who cares? The French are socialist and they smell bad.
Actually the reason why Europeans take longer vacations, is because they request it.
See in Europe, the taxes on working individuals are so high that the Europeans find it more beneficial to request more vacation time, rather than pay.
So instead of asking or trying to get a $5,000 raise, because that will turn out to be only like $2,000 or less once the government gets their cut. They instead ask for $5,000 equivalent in vacation pay. Get a month off.
I don’t know what I would do with five weeks off. Go crazy, most likely.
BUT Europeans have a more holidays which are spent building a family unit and relaxing more in the long runs works out better for everybody except your boses who wish to work you to death in the US with no minimum wage Pathetic if you ask me ALSO NOTE France has zero waiting lists in hospitals BEAT THAT
Claudia
I don’t care if we are more productive or not. I want us to live longer and be healthier. They have us beat for sure on that score.
Reply to ClaudiaEuropeans do NOT have lower prductivity than Americans, thats a myth to comfort Americans.
French are actually more productive than Americans, as seen on CBS 60 minutes and other statistics.They compared Americans with 40-60 hour weeks and French with 40 hour weks and, voila, French where more productive, weird but true.
…and the whining continues.
FYI to those new to this blog, the writer’s name is posted after the comment, not before.
“Claudia
I don’t care if we are more productive or not. I want us to live longer and be healthier. They have us beat for sure on that score.
Posted by: Who is Leo Strauss? | July 23, 2007 at 08:31 AM
Reply to ClaudiaEuropeans do NOT have lower prductivity than Americans, thats a myth to comfort Americans.
Posted by: Pete | July 23, 2007 at 10:02 AM ”
The posts about Europeans having lower productivity actually came from blogger named Kansas.
As an added bonus to vacation time, when the Europeans take their vacations, they can go to most beaches topless or nude if they want to.
“As an added bonus to vacation time, when the Europeans take their vacations, they can go to most beaches topless or nude if they want to.”Im a European and i havent seen any of this………Another myth?
Love France so much? Admire them? Go live there.
“If you don’t love it, leave it”-Merle Haggard.
FWIW, we’ve been known to go nude on the banks of Downer Creek as well….
Hey! How do you work in Australia or France? I thought it was impossible for a Us Citizen please let me know I’ll move tommorrow. This country is bullshit! and its killing us all. look at the new drugstore on every corner
“….and its killing us all.”
Huh? Do tell.
So, more drugstores=unhealthy population? Ah.
There’s a bank on lots of corners too and new ones built all the time. So, more banks=wealthier population?
Productivity IssuesU.S. Department of Laborhttp://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/speeches/20070308_Women.htm
“Our economy has created 7.4 million new jobs since August 2003. Our economy produced 7.4 million new jobs since August 2003. That’s more jobs than the European Union and Japan combined have created. Furthermore, the latest revisions to the payroll employment survey show that our country actually created one million more jobs over the past two years than had previously been estimated.
America’s workers are among the most productive of any major industrialized economy. And strong productivity growth in recent years is translating into higher wages and a higher standard of living. Real wages for workers increased 2.1 percent over the past 12 months. That’s an extra $1,244 of new purchasing power for the typical family of four with two wage earners. And overall compensation, including both wages and benefits, has increased 3 percent over the past 12 months.”
Other Links: (Pro and Con arguments)
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/CAREER/trends/08/30/ilo.study/
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-09/01/content_260191.htm
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PJ72_0uTA7kJ:www.wdi.umich.edu/files/Publications/PolicyBriefs/2004/brief_03.pdf+u.s.+workers+have+higher+productive+than+europeans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us&client=firefox-a
2007 speech by Secretary of Laborhttp://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/speeches/20070227_IFAC.htm“America’s workers are the most productive of any major industrialized economy. And strong productivity translates into higher wages and higher standards of living. The 12 month gain in real hourly earnings is now 2.1 percent. That’s an extra $1,244 of new purchasing power for the typical family of four with two wage earners.”
More Links: (Pro and Con)
http://www.apo-tokyo.org/productivity/035_prod.htm
Two Economists look at Europe’s Economic slowdownEconomic growth and labor productivity have been slowing in Europe as workers take more leisure time. Two experts look at why.http://www.international.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=16974
“For thirty years Western Europe has consistently turned out a Gross Domestic Product 70% that of the United States. Why hasn’t Europe caught up? And curiously, European hourly productivity is much higher than GDP figures would imply, at 90% or better of that of American workers. Why the gap, and why did labor productivity, Europe’s best indicator, begin to slide after 1995? Two economists, one from Europe and one from the United States, probed the persistent thirty-year differences between living and earning patterns in Western Europe and the United States at a November 4 UCLA forum.”
Why Europeans Work Less Than AmericansSteven Landsburghttp://www.forbes.com/2006/05/20/steven-landsburg-labor_cx_sl_06work_0523landsburg.html
Of course, Europeans pay a price for their extravagant leisure. The average Frenchman produces only three-quarters as much as the average American, even though productivity per hour is slightly higher in France.
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=9286
Europe’s Productivity Problemhttp://www.theglobalist.com/DBWeb/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=2989
Under those circumstances, it is no wonder that Europe’s productivity numbers look good. But the numbers are hiding a serious problem. In Europe, young and low-skilled workers are simply frozen out of the job market. Hence Europe’s high unemployment rates.
Those folks are not productive at all, of course — because they are not working. Worse, without entry-level jobs they have no way to learn the skills and obtain the experience necessary to grow into the high productivity jobs.
All of this leads to a perplexing result: On the one hand, Europe has high productivity levels — and, on the other hand, a permanent underclass of the unemployed. But both are created by the same circumstances.
Europeans might want to heed the words of former U.S. Treasury Secretary, Larry Summers: “An economy where jobs are looking for people — as well as people looking for jobs — is one of the best social programs we have.”
What Europeans do not seem to have realized is that societies do not generate greater wealth because businesses are playing defense — by trying to avoid hiring workers.
For Europeans, the U.S. productivity numbers should be a wake-up call. The only functional response is for Europeans to swallow their pride — just as the U.S. did in the 1980s when it faced a challenge from Japan.
Americans can now thank the Japanese for spurring U.S. companies to restructure aggressively. Similarly, Europeans should take up the U.S. challenge — as the way to spur reform and change in Europe.
What has happened to our country that we criticize such things as “Paid Vacation” time? I mean, my God, we used to value our fair labor laws and now we’re all about pleasing the corporate giants. It’s just like how banks used to give employees lunch breaks in my small town. The bank would literally close for an hour and then reopen again after lunch. This no longer happens because people talk about “productivity” and how we don’t really NEED full breaks anymore. Well you know what… you only live once. When one realizes that mortality, maybe he or she will stand up for breaks, vacations, and other things…
“I mean, my God, we used to value our fair labor laws and now we’re all about pleasing the corporate giants.”
Stockholm Syndrome
You see it on here every day.
Some people think that business exists to serve the employee.
They are mistaken.
Business exist to make a profit.
Having employees is just a necessary factor to make that happen.
Simple.
Go.
American’s are jealous or perhaps ignorang of the fact that in France and other developed Eurpean countries the quality of life is valuable beyond the production line, this includes other benefits as health care, pensions, and free bus passes for the elderly. Besides the pound and euro have way outpaced the dollar, as has their stockmarket.
Posted by: SOB | July 23, 2007 at 10:55 AM
Stockholm Syndrome. Right on cue!
Why do you have a business, ksfarmgrrl? To make money?
I am British and hate the country. Everything is done for the interestes of the rich. I am happily living in the Netherlands and (although this is not quite the land of milk and honey) don’t mind paying the 42% tax on my wages. The public transport system and health system more than pays back for this.
The french live longer because they surrender like monkey to their leisure and because they eat smelly cheese.(LOL)
A note to those posting on this from abroad:I am curious to know how you came to find this blog and post on it?
Would anyone share how they got to the blogs on Kansas.com?
- French workers have, by law, 30 days/year of paid vacation, that is 30 WORKING days, which makes it FIVE full weeks. A “cadre,”(engineer, etc), working in the same company for more than 5 – 10 years (it varies from company to company) will end up with 6 to 7 weeks paid vacation.
And not withstanding wiseman’s erroneous remark (typical for an average ignoramus American) at the beginning of this thread, there are another ELEVEN National holidays, which are of course, not included in the 5-week vacation time.
- As already mentioned by several people, the productivities of the French and American workers are about the same, fluctuating +/- several % points. The difference in the GNP between the 2 countries is just due to the facts that (1) Americans work many more hours, and (2) the population of France 21% that of the USA.
- France is the FOURTH largest economy in the world, behind the USA, Japan, Germany, and in front of England (5th).
- Contrary to another American “feel-good” myth, the taxes is the USA and France are about the same: Corporate 33.33% (France), versus 35% (USA). Individual, 10 – 48.09% (France) versus 0 – 35% (USA). France has, like other EU countries, a VAT (Value Added Tax) of 19.6%.
- I will not go into the facts that these taxes provide universal free care, free education for French as well as foreign students(University tuition, between $500 and $1,000. Range at business schools much wider), money for mothers at home, etc…
The reality is that there is so much propaganda and lies in the USA, trying to confuse the American workers, in order to keep them in line, ignorant, “bear-feet and pregnant,” for the benefit of the US industrialists. These lies are perpetrated by the US Government, which although “of the people” is in the pocket of big business. I am not especially a fan of Mr. Moore’s films, but he is right on target with Sicko. As one guy in his film sums up the whole difference (I think he is English): in England, the Government is scared of its people, while in the US, the people are scared of their Government.
A note to those posting on this from abroad:I am curious to know how you came to find this blog and post on it?
Would anyone share how they got to the blogs on Kansas.com?
Posted by: brian | July 23, 2007 at 12:14 PM
Brian, most likely these “new” posters have never lived or even visited the countries in which they are trying to defend. They are most likely bloggers under disguise of nic.
It’s possible that a few Wichita State Foreign students might post or some Foreign based companies employees might post, but I doubt it, they are studying or working.
From about 30 years of being online, I can tell you with nearly 100 percent precision a post created by a foreigner. Their writing style is very different often with grammatical errors.
I saw none of this on the postings here.
“They are most likely bloggers under disguise of nic.”
Posted by: Kansas, aka ** K H A N **, aka ‘blank’, aka (stolen)J M Walker, aka Republican, aka (a long, unknown list) | July 23, 2007 at 12:49 PM
You know I might actually go along with this thread except for the fact that France has 9% unemployment and riots showing inequality in the work place, so once again tell me how good France is..
“From about 30 years of being online, I can tell you with nearly 100 percent precision a post created by a foreigner. Their writing style is very different often with grammatical errors.I saw none of this on the postings here.Posted by: Kansas | July 23, 2007 at 12:49 PM ”
Oh My! Where to begin on this one…When could a person first have been online? How were you online in 1977?
How does time online relate to your ability to tell a post written by a foreigner from any other?
I was a moderator on the old Compuserve forums/chat rooms.
I learned to be keenly aware of foreign visitors so I could direct them to the proper chat rooms so they would be more comfortable speaking in their native language or language of choice.
I said almost 30 years didn’t I?
History of Compuserve:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe
That is some old school stuff there, KS-Repub
Agree Cosmos, can the WeBlog reveal who is real and who isn’t?
First off to Claudia. I work around a lot of people here who are the same way, they do only their job. In fact I hear “It’s not my job,” quiet a bit. In fact I also hear the along with it, “I’m not paid to think.” Which explains how we have let Bush get elected, and lead us into ruin.As for unemployment America is just as high as France if not higher. What we don’t count is those who are homeless and those who have lost their unemployment benifits and are still out of work. This government only counts those getting unemployment.As for travel I have been to 32 other countries in my life and plan to travel more when I retire in a couple of years. I still correspond with people that I met almost 40 years ago. By the way I was not inthe military I used to work for an airline.
Agree Cosmos, can the WeBlog reveal who is real and who isn’t?
Posted by: Wiseman | July 23, 2007 at 01:30 PM
Oh Mr. Wiseman, I don’t think the Leftist Liberals would care for that at all.
Why?
Because it would show the same IPs of all the “new posters” match the IPs of the old Liberal posters. :)
I have yet to meet a person on their deathbed who wished they had worked more hours and spent less time with their family.
Why do we in America feel that the sign of success is directly correlated to the number of hours and years we have worked? Why do we have such a blind loyalty to these huge corporations that have robbed the pension coffers and bilked the investors?
Everyone talks about how we would be taxed out the wazoo if we went to a Universal healthplan. I work for one of the Aircraft plants here in Wichtia and pay about $100 a paycheck for my insurance. That’s $2,600 a year. Now, if I make $50,000 a year then my insurance is actually just over 5% of my income. And that $50k is pre-tax so I probably end up paying more like 7%. This is also on top of the fact that the company has incredible bargaining power with the insurance providers. The company my wife works for is much smaller and if she elected to use their insurance she would pay $240 a paycheck or $6,240 a year. That’s more than 10% of her annual income. How is our healthcare system better than that of other countries? The difference here is that the premiums line the pockets of the insurance companies while looking for ways to deny claims but in a Universal healthcare model a profit is not the motive.
But lets keep drinking the Kool-Aid and telling ourselves our system is better than the rest of the worlds.
Compared to Brownback the French are working overtime. I just wish I could get as much vacation time as Brownback or Bush. The Republicans whined when the Democrats took over Congress and they were forced to work a five day workweek instead of their usual three day workweek.
I am American and have lived in several European countries for the last 11 years, so let me just clarify something about the total number of days off in Europe/UK vs. “the States”. The US does offer about a month of public holidays but there are at stupid times – say one day in the middle of the week, or just a long weekend. Whereas here in the UK we only have about 5 public holidays a year. So yes most jobs overseas offer 4-6 weeks off – if you are lucky you’ll get 6 weeks, which is a noticeable improvement to the US. However, even with a job that offers only 4 weeks off, I still much prefer the European/UK system because I can take my holidays WHEN I WANT TO and not when the government/society says I have to – all at once or spread out – it’s totally MY choice. Whereas in the States you take holidays when the govt says you have to (dead president’s birthdays etc) You can’t go very far when you only have 1 day off in the middle of the week or only 4 days off say over Thanksgiving or Easter. With the right to choose MY OWN holiday dates I can book myself 3 weeks in the furthest corner of the world and really have time to truly unwind and relax and recharge, not to mention explore this great big world, before going back to work. Also, with no children bogging me down, I can book my holidays when other people with kids are stuck back at home because of the school schedule. That way I don’t have to put up with hundreds of other people’s children running around and screaming when I am trying to relax on the beach. In both systems however I have a problem with being told that I MUST take Christmas and Easter off. I am atheist and I do not think it is right that any government should tell me that I have to take time off for religious holidays which have no meaning to me. Still, here in the UK that accounts for only about 3 holiday days a year so it’s easy to get over that when I am sitting on the beach of some tropical island with nothing but sun and fun for up to 6 weeks straight!
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire Revolution for Peace Please?
If politicians get 8 weeks off per year then so should the workers ,
Quote:”Would anyone share how they got to the blogs on Kansas.com?”(Posted by: brian | July 23, 2007 at 12:14 PM)
As for me:I’m Austrian and got here via a link on Michael Moores homepage.MM is very well known(and discussed very controversal) at least in The Netherlands, Italy, Spain, France, Germany and Austria (that are the countries I have some insight).So I guess, most Europeans got here by this link
My part on the “productivity discussion”:I enjoy the European social system and the “horrendous taxes” here left me enough to enjoy the revenues of my US stocks !
So, keep being productive … ;-)
Werner,Thanks for the info! Glad to have you here.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/July 23rd, 2007The French are on Vacation Right Now
Unemployment is higher in Europe, including France.
Economic growth is lower, in Europe, including France.
Socialism is the reason for both.
Europe, however, does tax capital gains at a lower rate than the US. Roughly half, I believe.
They have also eliminated the double taxation of dividends.
Notice, Dems and libs never want to copy any good ideas out of Europe.
“Unemployment is higher in Europe, including France.Economic growth is lower, in Europe, including France.Socialism is the reason for both.Posted by: Econ101 | July 23, 2007 at 05:03 PM ”
I don’t believe that. Do you have any stats to back that up?
And now for another canard, another piece of US propaganda. The unemployment rate in France is presently about 9%. In the EU it’s about 8%. What the liars in the USA, its Government at the trough of the corporations forget to mention is that in France, for one, a university student is considered “unemployed” by the Government statistics. It’s the same in England. In the USA, students are not considered yet part of the work force. When this correction is made, the France’s unemployment hovers around 5.75 – 6.00%
You don’t have to take my word for it. Just Google it if you dare. You may be entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to your facts.
Ah, interesting Daniel.Different measuring sticks for different countries. That sure allows a government to spin its ‘data’ many ways.
“France, for one, a university student is considered “unemployed” by the Government statistics. It’s the same in England. In the USA, students are not considered yet part of the work force. When this correction is made, the France’s unemployment hovers around 5.75 – 6.00%” Posted by: Daniel | July 23, 2007 at 05:46 PM
Let’s see…In France student = unemployedIn England student = unemployedIn U.S. student = unemployed
So, you’re saying by raising the status of students in England and France to Students as employed, this will help the unemployment figure to be figured at a lower percent.
How quaint.
I prefer the reality of considering students as unemployed, instead of living in a dream world.
Hi, sorry I’m late.I’m from Portugal. Our system is somewhere in the middle but a lot more social. We don’t dump people on the street, or let anyone die just because of the mighty money. But the ones that can pay pay something, not much but something and in the drugs first we pay then get refund others are paid for by the taxes and others are paid some percentage by taxes and some percentage by us. Even so it get’s hard for lots of people. We spend a lot of bad spent money of our taxes or else we would be more like the french or the british. The point was already made. There are things I wouldn’t trade of for money, one being health. I’m not trying to be anoying I’m giving my opinion. And that’s somenthing still allowed and free both in my country and in yours(I hope). You (americans) were the beacon for good and for worse, be sure of that, and there’s lot of people who still believe you’re wright but help us all and educate yourselfs.
Ricardo,
How much of the medical equipment your country uses was developed by America?
How many of the drugs does your country use which were researched, developed, and tested in America?
How many of your Doctors, Nurses, and Health Care infrastructure is trained in medicine honed by America?
Many of those countries who utilize “socialized” health care do so at the benefit of our Research and Development.
It is one of those things people like Moore overlook in his little piece of propaghanda.
Many of the problems our Health Care system faces now are caused by government.
More government is not the solution.
We are working ourselves to death in America. It sucks.
“in France, for one, a university student is considered “unemployed” by the Government statistics.”…”In the USA, students are not considered yet part of the work force. ”
Posted by: Daniel | July 23, 2007 at 05:46 PM
Thank you for pointing out that important difference.
It’s me again. Sorry if I focused only in one thing. We(in Portugal) have the right for paid vacation after done some work. It’s two days per month worked. Normally after six months we get two weeks off and yearly it repeats. We have a bonus if we don’t miss any day, three days more so we get four to five weeks paid a year plus the Hollydays. The rule says the employer (boss or chief or something) choose half the days and the employe choose the other half. I would like more but I’m sure I can’t complaint. That’s a ballanced system, in my opinion which is free…. You (americans) were the beacon for good and for worse, be sure of that, and there’s lot of people who still believe you’re wright but help us all and educate yourselfs.
“One factor to consider, a large percentage of employees in France work on one-year contracts without a guarantee of employment once it expires (this contract can be renewed only once before either hiring full-time or saying au revoir).
An even large percentage of employees are interns who earn Euro 700 (gross) per month and they perform the functions of people who would ordinarily earn a significant salary. These internships last, typically, 6 months. Should one of these students not have a Masters Degree, they usually don’t get paid at all. These students are considered “employed” and artificially drive the unemployment rate down (otherwise hold it steady). Very few of these interns go on to hold a job immediately following their termination.
This folds into the next scheme by the Fromage government. Rather than count these students with Masters degrees as unemployed, they re-up them as students, provide them with cash and enroll them in another Masters program (or Ph D, or whatever). This can go on for years. Of course, they receive money for housing and food as well.
I know this from experience…lived in France the past 3 years and hired many of these students and 1-year contract employees. Only kept one on once her contract expired.
The working poor population in France is astronomical. Most people live paycheck to paycheck without any hope whatsoever of getting ahead. The government even forces companies (private and public companies !!) to provide “vacation checks” to their employees so they can go on vacation. For example, you buy Euro 100 in checks and the company has to match it (matching percentage based on income but just about all hourly employees receive 100%).
Sure sounds like a self-fulfilling prophesy in France. They lie and cheat and drive their own country into the ground…the shame of it is, the French people deny any argument that says this is so.
I like your site, by the way. Good work.Posted by: Eric on March 10, 2007 04:54 AM
Bonjour ,
—————-Merci Eric!
I see that the French student is forced back into school, paid for doing so, gets work and is counted as unemployed.
So, Daniel was partially correct on stated the unemployed status, but the students still get paid by the government and get their schooling paid for as well.
Some welfare system huh!
I’m sorry Messier, but I’m going to have to pay you monthly and your schooling on Master’s degree. You’re status will be as a ward of the government. By the way, IBM France is hiring students for errands, you should go there and apply so you can maintain your unemployment status.
Wheeeeeeee!
Yeah baby! That’s the kind of unemployment status I want! :D
PS – I found out the site from Michael Moore page.Nathan if you want to go that way we have a profound debt to the greeks, the arabs, the mayans and all the other human societies who in fact did something for their loved ones and not for the buck on itself. I’m sure you eard about a portuguese doctor in South Africa a few decades ago, he invented some new type of treatment… I will not repeat myself again but I want to. Educ….
Boa vinda a Wichita Blog Ricardo. Que tipo do trabalho você faz em Portugal. Que é o nome de Portugal próximo baixo americano? Eu esqueci-me do nome.
Thank you, it’s good to be here :).I’m a computer programmer, oficially to my boss I’m an Informathic Especialist.’Que é o nome de Portugal próximo baixo americano? Eu esqueci-me do nome.’Não entendo a última pergunta, repete em Inglês se faz favor.De que nome te esqueceste?
Henry Ford was the one who instituted the 40 hour work week and a minimium pay scale so that workers would earn decent wages to support their family and have family time after their 8 hour days.
I find it nuts that Americans would think that working long hours is a good thing. The only good that comes out of it, if you want to call it good, is more profits for the corporations who are downsizing jobs in the USA and sending the jobs and the capital investment to India and China.
The French have taken the American ideas of a normal working day, vacation and worker rights and perfected them for use in their society. The fact that the French are more productive than Americans during a work day means that they’re more organized when they work.
As to the myth of French high taxes, add up your tax bill, and I mean ALL of it. Add up your social security, federal, state, unemployment, medicare, medicaid taxes and see what percentage of your salary you give to the government. Don’t forget the capital gains part, too. You think you pay small taxes compared to the French? The trick is that the French tax money goes to help the French people. They get their tax money back in forms of social services. We pay just as much, but don’t get the services.
Dropping bombs on Iraq and tax breaks for oil companies are SO important you know….pffff
The French health system is wonderful. I’ve had the opportunity to use the French medical system, and I found it wonderful. A 30 minute wait in the emergency room, on a Sunday in August, numerous scans and consultations with doctors, for a total stay of 5 hours in the hospital. The cost? Nothing. No bill. But that’s the difference between France and the USA. France sees medical care as a human right while the USA views health care as a for profit business.
The next time all you Rethuglicans talk against “socialized” France, remember this: America has socialized medicine and pensions in the form of social security and Medicare/Medicaid. They work fine. The same system can be expanded to cover all Americans, not just the poor and old.
Sign me,
An American who has lived in France and married to a Frenchman, back in the USA for now.
Ricardo,
Que é o nome de Portugal próximo baixo americano? Eu esqueci-me do nome.’
The name of the American Base near Portugal, I forgot its name.
Ricardo,
I am not talking about centries worth of research benifits.
Of course you would be inane and compare it to civiliation long ago.
The contributions I speak of are happening now.
My point is that many socialized health care systems are propped up by our research and development.
When you don’t have a society like ours propping yours up, all of a sudden your little socialized world isn’t going to be so grand anymore.
Nathan,
Your arguments are true, no doubt on that.
Currently I’m sitting at home (thats Austria, this small stain on the European map between Germany and Italy) for 1 week “partner leave” (paid, 1 week per year is the max) to help my wife after a shoulder surgery.
This involved- the surgery itself (probably involving some american tecniques and tools)
- 5 days stay in the clinic (at least the inhouse telephone system was american and their computer system is based on american technology)
- all expenses for medication and checks upfront (the latter undoubtly with american technology involvement)
and
- it will include some 3 weeks rehab in the upcoming weeks (for sure, something american will be part of it).
My overall expenses (yes, I know I pay 42% taxes)?about € 65,- for a new nightdress (my wife refused to go with “this old rag”)
Isn’ it nice to have the best of both worlds ?
Not to mention the stability our military provides to most of the world, which without, you would have to have a much larger defense budget.
There are so many comparisons to be made that simply saying “look at our health care system, it is better you should use it” is not so simple.
Kansas,
I thought the official language in Kansas was English…
So, for your benefit, let me elaborate: the 9% of unemployed in France (less in England) INCLUDE the students. In the USA, the unemployment statistics do NOT include the students. There is huge student population in the USA (undergrad and grad), and if it were included in the “unemployed,” as in France, the unemployed rate in the USA would jump to almost that of France, and certainly would exceed that of England.
Capiche?
The american base: In Portugal we have one in Azores, they are part of Portugal. It’s called Lages. You asked near, I don’t know wich one’s near. Maybe in the United Kingdom, maybe in Italy, I believe you don’t have one anymore in Spain, maybe in Maroco? I don’t know, sorry. You don’t need bases near your have air refuilling :).To the contributions: Aren’t others doing research too? I don’t agree with your oneway picture. It has all the colors and belongs to everyone, how much of your researchers are foreigner? There’s a lot of development in Europe, in Russia, in Japan, you are not the only ones in this planet doing research and development. I don’t think that’s a good argument, because money is money. I remember you have your own tax funded succefull research, the atom bomb.
Nice stability you provide for the Middle East :)
Thank you Ricardo — your post deserves a repeat,
“Not to mention the stability our military provides to most of the world, which without, you would have to have a much larger defense budget.”Posted by: Nathan | July 23, 2007 at 06:52 PM
“Nice stability you provide for the Middle East :) ”
Posted by: Ricardo | July 23, 2007 at 07:12 PM
I realize it is simpler to reply with some witty comment instead of actually trying to engage in any kind of reasonable discussion pertaining to the facts.
I truly believe that work should not be your soul existance, unless; your among the lucky few it seems whereas it is a passion…me not so lucky, my wife ..her passion. I think that people when able to spend thier time freely to follow a passion/hobby/whatever .. work harder and can end each day refreshed instead of beat down. I work 60+ hrs a week out of a need to pay my excessive mtg, credit, car and oh yes ridiculous hospital bills, This is not my passion nor was where I wanted to end up when I was younger. I took a vacation a few years ago for 1.5 weeks and came back to a heap of retaliation (negative obviously hence this blog)from my boss and his master as well, this 4 weeks- 2weeks whatever is a bunch of crap, your employer will take a loss over potenial revenue that you will bring in, so time off is more $$$$ they cannot lose. I hope that makes sense??Viva La France!!
Nathan,
Please make a “reasonable” and “factual” post, explaining how the U.S. preemptive attack on Iraq in 2003 has provided “stability” to the Middle East.
Some interesting posts here.
Looks like Daniel, Denny, Werner, and Dave Horne blew the lid off all the RepubliCON lies to make it seem like we’ve got paradise cornered.
Reminds me of the old USSR. They wouldn’t let their citizens see the outside world. Here, the news media just keeps making so much noise about how great we are, nobody bothers to look at the outside world.
And while we’re talking taxes, don’t forget PROPERTY taxes. I’m paying about two bills a month just to live in Wichita-Sedgwick Co. I used to RENT places cheaper than what I pay in taxes for the house I OWN.
*****
As for Brian’s suggestion that The Eagle post who’s using multiple nics?
They probably can’t do that because of privacy concerns. But as individual post-ers, we could ask The Eagle to verify if OUR IP address is used for more than one nic.
In other words, we could ask the webmaster to publicly inform the WEB if more than one nic is used on the same IP address.
The webmaster has my permission to publicly state if he sees evidence that I am using more than one nic.
Who will JOIN me? Kansas-Republican?
I think Nathan was right on in asking how much protection Portugal provided for other countries. The US has always had this role and preforms it admirably.
With a 42% tax bracket to support universal health care and add on some to keep our military strong what will our tax burden be? I for one will think about not working as hard. After all I could get a minimum wage job, have less stress, pay fewer taxes and still have the same benefits as everyone else. Wonder how long that will work?
I find it a little ironic that if the French government is taking care of the students so well, paying them to go to school, that we had the riots last summer. What prompted that. The global news said it was because there were no jobs to be had for the twentysomething crowd. Were we given the wrong information?
For all the “free”everything they get you’d think non-Americans would live forever, create the best art, be the happiest, give the most.
Whne in Europe see mostly slim alcoholic hypochondriacs hopelessly unfunny when sober wearing expensive desinger crap (soo much nobler than jogging suits), bemoaning Amerikkka’s ruining their vacations, climate, lawns, hemorrhoids, you name it.
With their vastly superior schools you’d think the cure for AIDS should have come out of Europe decades ago. How about them free energy technologies for the poor?Did the Americans steal the blueprints when they left Berlin?
Don’t ask Euros for help – they’re always on vacation.
Thanks Ricardo! I had forgotten the name of the base, Lages (although I think we spelled it Lajes?)============
Ah Daniel…
You know I’m having a difficult time verifying what you said about U.S. students not including the students in the unemployment stats.
In, let me provide you with the OFFICIAL statement form the U.S. Department of Labor.
“Total employment and unemployment are higher in some parts of the year than in others. For example, unemployment is higher in January and February, when it is cold in many parts of the country and work in agriculture, construction and other seasonal industries is curtailed. Also, both employment and unemployment rise every June, when students enter the labor force in search of summer jobs.”
It can be found at this URL:http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm
You see Daniel the U.S. Department of Labor only count jobs when students have jobs. You know as opposed to be unemployed when one has a job. :)
On the other question Daniel.
Yes, English is the official language of Kansas. But we also have Ethnic Germans and migrant Spanish workers along with some Native Americans who speak on occasion their own dialects.
Then we have the Okies that cross the State border which nobody can understand because their upper lip is dried out by the constant wind there and it remains stiff while they talk. :)
Looks like Daniel, Denny, Werner, and Dave Horne blew the lid off all the RepubliCON lies to make it seem like we’ve got paradise cornered. Posted by: CapnAmerica | July 23, 2007 at 07:49 PM
Looks like Capn lost yet another…
Guess I’ll move that marker over to my side now. :)
Don’t ask Euros for help – they’re always on vacation.
Posted by: Adnoydal | July 23, 2007 at 08:06 PM
They asked us twice last century I do believe. No, make that three times. You know those tiffs with the Germans and that pesky Soviet thing. Four, if you count the Balkans.
“From about 30 years of being online, I can tell you with nearly 100 percent precision a post created by a foreigner. Their writing style is very different often with grammatical errors.”
Actually it is us who spell wrong and use poor grammer. I am one of the few Americans who learned the correct was to spell English words like “colour”, “favourite” and “cheque”. Americans are so biased against correct spelling that MS Word will flag a correctly spelled word as misspelled.
I am one of the few Americans who learned the correct *was* to spellPosted by: Kev | July 23, 2007 at 09:10 PM
Proofreading no doubt helps word usage as well. :D
Also the USA only counts people that are “actively” looking for work which leaves out the homeless, the mentally ill and the generally lazy amongst us. It also leaves out those who lost a job- perhaps a good factory gig- and had to take a retail job with much less pay.
RepubliKhan–
I have gone on record that The Eagle can check my IP address to see if I am multi-nic-ing and make the results publicly KNOWN.
Will you do the same?
Let’s not forget a large number of american unemployed are warehoused in prisons, thus keeping the unemployment rate artificially low.By all means, lets all dedicate ourselves to being more productive. Long live big brother!
Well, it’s pointless Capn. I change the IP of my router every two weeks as a matter of practice.
So then you don’t mind?
You’re willing to give The Eagle permission to publicly reveal whether two nics are coming from the same IP address as I am, correct?
Excellent point, DON!
Hadn’t thought of that, but absolutely it’s true.
We also spend more money and have more convicts behind bars than any industrialized country in the world.
So I think most people with a functioning brain inside their head would like to have more vacation than they have now (excluding you lucky few who already have a month+).
Its really as simple as organizing and demanding better benefits whatever they may be. Business get away with offering no vacation on up to two weeks because they can. Without organized labor or government enforcement status qous of the past would still exist. 40 Hour work weeks, paid breaks, mandatory lunch times, and many other employee rights were fought for and won.
Everyone has to make their own personal decision as to whether they want to continue to fight for more, be content, or make excuses for business and potentially lose some of the benefits we have now.
So I think most people with a functioning brain inside their head would like to have more vacation than they have now (excluding you lucky few who already have a month+).
Its really as simple as organizing and demanding better benefits whatever they may be. Business get away with offering no vacation on up to two weeks because they can. Without organized labor or government enforcement status qous of the past would still exist. 40 Hour work weeks, paid breaks, mandatory lunch times, and many other employee rights were fought for and won.
Everyone has to make their own personal decision as to whether they want to continue to fight for more, be content, or make excuses for business and potentially lose some of the benefits we have now.
A lot of people from the Netherlands here on this forum! Me too. And indeed, we pay 40% of our income to taxes (depending on how much your income is; the more you make, the more you pay). But I’m totally happy paying it, because I see how much happier and satisfied Dutch people are, with our wonderful health care system (I’ve lived in the USA, so I’ve definitely seen the difference).
Im a European and living in one of the highest taxpaying European countries.Im gladly paying my high tax for free health care, education, medicine, 5 weeks of vacation, functioning public transport, enviromental healthy attitudes from everyone and a government that tries to help people, and more.
We only have 4 or 5% unemployment levels, students, retired people and kids under 7 are not included otherwise all of the population is included, in EU 2004 average figure was 9%.With the exception of France and Italy the countries with high unemployment are new members of the EU or/and former Sovietunion countries.
I have never been unemployed and only one of my friends have been, roughly 3 or 4 years during those years he got help from the state so he lived nicely, not in luxury but nicely.He’s is now employed for the last 10 years and happily working, hard.
And that US is the most productive in the world, forget it.Not when you are comparing it hour for hour.
Of course both US and Europe can show statistic that are superior than the other but frankly, life in EU is better and i’ve seen both sides.
Here’s my comment from two different IPs, yesterday from home, todat from work.First things first, I was sure Lages was the correct spelling but after some googleing I found out we use both Lages and Lajes, choose one :)Stability goes a long way, maybe if you handn’t been so armed we didn’t need your protection. Maybe Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact woulnd’t have needed to drive themselfs to bankruptcy researching and developing weapons. In the mid 80’s the percentage of planes in one side and the other (keep in mind that Portugal is a co-founder of NATO):- 80% or so of Nato planes were attack planes. 20% defense fighters.- 60% or so of Warsaw Pact planes were defense fighters, against 40% os attack planes.So I wonder who did you proctect us from? The spanish? They’re Nato too. Maybe you’re talking about Angola and what was done to that rich country when we got our freedom. You proctected de Angolans from the Soviets just wright, 30 years of civil war. And for sure you’re doing a nice job proctecting the Iraquis.
its hard to get rich and famous in eruope,you cant be like Paris Hilton in Paris France,and this really bums me out,,,
What you have to remember is to separate EU from Europe as whole.The figure for Europe as a whole is not fun because of the poor state of almost all of the former Sovietunion countries.As a comparison what would happen if Mexico,Nicarague, Bermuda, St. Pierre and Miquelone e.t.c. was included?
Although most of the former Sovietunion countries have a significantly increased living standard these last few years, espicially countries like Polen, Lithuania, Estonia e.t.c.
Ricardo:Studies show that it is easier to get rich in EU than US, due to less social obstacles and free education.The amount of money is a difference though, getting rich in US MAY mean more money, but its harder to get there.
My wife and I live and work in Sweden. We moved from the USA and cannot imagine moving back. Of course we miss our friends and family in the States…but hey with 6 weeks of vacation we actually see them MORE than when we lived in the USA! The only downside is waiting for them to get off from thier jobs so we can hang out…
GEE Sam,lets see $1200.00 each to Fly fromsweden to the US so lets do the math 1200 X 2 = $2400.002400 X 6 time a year = 14,400.00
no thanks I take 4 weeks off and stay in the US
The name in this forum/blog goes in the end not in the beginning. It wasn’t me saying those things about getting rich. Thanks anyway.
“GEE Sam,lets see $1200.00 each to Fly fromsweden to the US so lets do the math 1200 X 2 = $2400.002400 X 6 time a year = 14,400.00
no thanks I take 4 weeks off and stay in the US”
Do you seriously believe they are travelling 6 times a year?They probably travels 2 maybe 3 times :) a year
Ricardo, im sorry, didnt realise that it wasnt you.My sincere apologies.
OK peter lets look at 3 times a year
2400.00 X 3 = $7200.00..so unless you make 60.00 an hour, I think I will still stay here and pocket the money..
And that is assuming you don,t have to stay in a Hotel..
And if the French are so happy, then why are they so Rude to everybody???
Kansas,
You write,”You see Daniel the U.S. Department of Labor only count jobs when students have jobs. You know as opposed to be unemployed when one has a job. :)”
Then I believe we agree. In the USA, when the students get off school, in June, and enter summer jobs, then the employment rate in the US increases. HOWEVER, when they leave in September to return to school, they again become “invisible” to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, i.e., it does not affect the BLS’s unemployment rates, ergo the artificial low unemployment numbers in the USA. In France or England (I do not know about the other Western EU countries), the students become unemployed, and are COUNTED as unemployed, boosting the number by several % points.
OK I’ll bite, what Social Issues stop you from getting Wealthy??
BG,
And why are the Americans so arrogant? The truth of the matter is that there are arrogant Americans, and rude Frenchmen/women. My wife is American, from St Louis, and she loves Paris, the “capital of rude Frenchmen, according to most Americans). The few rude people she meets, she has learned many choice words to handle them…
well according to the Blog,maybe we are arrogant because we don’t get enough days off, but the French are so laid back from all their days off I assumed their would be some reflection in their attitudes,I’m glad your wife likes Paris,I perfer the Caribean..
To BG again,
What does it means “wealthy?” Millionaire? Billionaire? It’s all relative, my friend. I have a good roof over my head (I just remodeled my kitchen: ~US$20,000), I eat well (no junk food, believe you me), drink good wine, travel often, and I have NO debts, except for a small mortgage.
There is a saying in Bali, where I live part of the year: “one can only eat one plate of rice at a time.”
Daniel, as it should be.
When students are in school, they are usually unemployed and should not be counted as employed.
OK, good for you..
I know what wealth is…
I wanted to know what Social issues help get wealth in France??
What airline are you flying? We have done this trip between Sweden and the USA roughly 15 times and have never paid 1200 per ticket… Not even close!And Peter you are right. We travel on average 2 times per year and for stay for 2 or 3 weeks each visit. (We have traveled there twice this year already, so we are pretty much staying home until Chrismas)
As for the expenses…well we have great union jobs here in Sweden that pay us a little extra when we go on vacation. (Semester bidrag: Vacation Bonus)
Ricardo,
Your English grammar has improved dramatically since yesterday! I’m impressed!
I mean, you are using contractions and everything. :)
man really,please let me know what Airline you use..I shopped for months for those tickets and even booked months in advance..do you use travelocity or Orbitz..
When I lived in Europe, the only time I flew was to get off the continent – i.e. to the U.K.
The countries in Europe are small in comparison to the U.S., so driving or taking a bus is not much of a big deal.
I do remember though that flights were very expensive compared to the U.S. I checked into flying to Rome and Madrid – the price was just too high.
I think it is the “booking months in advance” that hurts you. We usually fly IcelandAir. Sign up for “Lucky Fares” and you will can get a better price. We usually wait until maybe 6 weeks before we actually travel to buy the tickets. By that time the prices are usually around 400-700 per ticket in USD.Lately though we have been using some Swedish websites that give us slightly better rates. (the Swedes are notorious for chartering thus driving the price down a little more.)But for you… I really think IcelandAir’s “Lucky Fares” is the way to go.
Agree with you Sam, have been roughly 15-20 times in the US and the biggest expense for me has been hotell or apartment rent.But if you can live with friends or relatives it’s much cheaper.
BG, 2400 USD for a plane ticket to and from USA from Sweden!!!!!Get real, it might be 1200-1500 USD total.
But i have to agree, French are rude and extremely proud of their nation.To proud actually, something they share with many…..
However there is a trick to ease your relation with French people…. Try to Speak French with them, the will do everything to help you after that even if you fail miserably with your French…For some reason they dont like to speak any foreign language.
I guess it must depend on which European country you lived in… It is really cheap to fly from Sweden to other parts of Europe…Lots of package deals especially during the summer months.
The French got ruder the closer you get to bigger cities like Paris.
The smaller cities are usually friendly and will speak English as tourism is a large part of their economy.
I went on a Gastronomic Tour once and found the French quite hospitable.
Stayed in the Hotels that were small and one bathroom per floor, none in room – only a bidet. Sometimes when times were desperate, the bidet became a utilitarian fixture. :D
Reading all the posts it seems to me that there is a lot of misunderstanding between the american and european folks.(This will be kind of lengthy, sorry for that)
Part of the discussion is so detailed, we all miss the bigger view !
The fact that we have similar cultures doesn’t imply our mentalities are the same !
Of course, “the European” does not exist, and so doesn’t “the American”. So I’m referring to “tendencies” in our societies and not to 100% of the population:
The main difference to me seems to be the fact that most Europeans are working to afford their live, and very many Americans seems to live for their work.It’s not that one way is better than the other, they are just different !
Factors like “quality of life”, “compassion” and “solidarity” play a big role in the european society and don’t seem to be very important in the american one.
To illustrate what I mean:I’ve worked in the US for 6 months in 1999/2000 in California and then again 6 months in 2005 in DC.During my 1st stay the mother of an american co worker (he was from Montana) passed away and NOONE in the office understood why he wanted to take 2 days off to attend the furneral, because there was a project milestone to meet.(Later on, the project was delayed 2 months because a guy in the mid level management was fired, and the new guy had to familiarize himself with the details).In Europe (at least in Austria) you would maneuver yourself into the social outback by NOT attending the furneral (even if you hated your mother)
Another big difference between our communities is, that Europe had 2 major wars on its soil in the last century. Nearly everyone I know has lost at least one relative just one generation or two ago in one of these wars (it’s another story that both wars were triggered by stupid Europeans).
We (or at least our parents and grand parents) know what it is like to start at zero because you lost everything you worked for a lifetime (including sons, daughters, houses, communities and entire countries)We know what “collateral damage” really means !This is the main motive for the european reluctance to go to war for economic reasons. (Call us cowards and “always on vacation”, we don’t really care …)
Fortunate America on the other hand managed to have no war on its soil (except Pearl Harbour, which still seems to be a big trauma).This, of course causes a very different view on war and related things !
It’s a big difference if soldiers of a voluntary army die abroad, or if the house owend by your family for 25 generation with your children and wife in it is blown away “erroneously”.
So:All in all, we like success as much as you do, but we are not ready to throw our lives (or the quality of our lifes) away just for “being first” to the same extent as you do.
To exaggerate a bit:When a major part of the american society suffers from gastric ulcer, you would put endless effords to get a cure for it within no time, producing additional ulcers along the way.Europe would try to eliminate the reasons for the ulcer (distress, etc.) and generate a lot of ulcers during negotiaions between employers and employees.
And there’s sense as well as stupidity in both ways …
BG: i checked Air France, Finnair, SAS price’s ranged beetween 1100-1400 USD.United airline, Lufthansa,British airways and Delta airlines goes for 1500-2000 USD.I used a local internet travel agency that scans for all available flights.
Sounds like quite an experience Kansas!All this anger that is directed towards the French is really silly. Seriously, there are probably lots of really nice French people that love Americans. So what if they are a little excessively proud of thier language and country…so are alot of my relatives in the USA. But we get along just fine.
“During my 1st stay the mother of an american co worker (he was from Montana) passed away and NOONE in the office understood why he wanted to take 2 days off to attend the furneral” Posted by: Werner | July 24, 2007 at 09:09 AM
This is hard to believe Werner. Most American companies will bend over backwards to let people off if immediate family dies.
I have seen situations though where people have frittered away their Vacation Time and Sick Leave and had to go on unpaid leave.
There are also situations, believe or not, where people are not close to their parents or just can’t afford the travel, especially if it is across the width of the U.S.
To “Republican”,
it was just an example to illustrate the importance of work in ones life.
I do not want to imply, all american businesses work that way.
And, btw: the pressure didn’t come from the company (at least not direct) but from the co-workers
These “european” bloggers are obviously fake.
Gee, all of a sudden here they all are! Wow!
Funny.
Werner, i liked your reasoning, dont agree completely but for the most part you might be right.
Your “Europeans are working to afford their live, and very many Americans seems to live for their work.” is good.
I am married to a none European and she suffer’s from this and as a European thats a alien reasoning for me.
Someone said, dont remember who, that the difference from an American worker and a French is: When an American worker see a rich guy in a limousine that he eraned from abusing worker’s he wants to be that rich guy, a French wants to drag that rich A**hole out of the car and beat him up for abusing people.This is a paraphrase but it agrees with your reasoning.
Well SOB, I’m trying to be nice just in case they are. :D
I could put them on the spot and ask them very specific questions about some locations in European cities which only a native would know.
But I’m trying to be sociable. :D
SOB, i guess some are fake, most are probably not.And i am not.Jag kommer från Sverige.That was my native language.Weird, isnt it :D
I’m sure at least some are fake.
…anyone can use an online language translator.
Do you think i am a “fake” European?
I can’t prove it. I’m just very suspicous of all these foreign posters appearing from nowhere once a topic like this comes up.
To Kansas and SOB,
you are welcome to ask whatever you want about Vienna, Austria …
Or Jönköping, Sweden…fire away! But I doubt you will…how do we know you are from the USA?
Goin to eat supper now though…might check later on…
To SOB, ask me anything about Sweden that only a native would know…
Why would anyone fake being a European???What could they possible gain????Paranoia must be hard :), only kidding.
The reason Europeans might be so active in these discussions might be that most Americans seems to consider themselves to live in the best, greatest, richest, most democratic country in the world e.t.c. and Europeans know it is not true…Not that Europe is that either, both have their good and bad sides…
And i think that many Europeans enjoy these discussions, i do :)
I’m not interested in such a quiz. I’m not a Swedish native myself so how could I ask such questions. I’m just making a comment of what seems obvious to me. I suspect there are many others who agree.
I’m one of the Americans who do think we live in the best country. Of course it isn’t pefect. No country is.
Werner,
I don’t know Vienna at all. I went their on a two day tour, but I’ve forgotten more than I remembered. I do remember it being a very lovely city.
Probably because we were excited about a ski trip in the Garmich area of Germany. :)That and there was an ample supply of Bischoff Pilsner and ParkBrau on the Bus. :D=================Peter,
I met a medical Flight Surgeon from Sweden. He was quite the fellow and always smiling. Don’t recall his name though, only that it was a very short surname.
He was doing some sort of Internship at various U.S. Military Bases, studying G-Force Training, Hyperbaric Chambers and Aerospace Physiology. All those things that make pilots go (ulp) when they are in flight. :D
Ok, i buy that, i cant ask anything a Native american would know either.
But why would anyone try to fake being a European and wht do you base your suspicion on?Im curious over that.
Peter read the post..the 2400.00 is 1200.00 X 2 people..that would be my fault I assumed you and your wife were traveling toghther..but I paid 1200.00 there and back for 1200.00 dollars I will have to check in Iceland air next time??
Kansas, hope you enjoyed the company of the Swede :)
I have almost always enjoyed my trips to USA, been most in New york State and Chicago :) LOVE NY!(business related for the most part)
Probably will go to Las Vegas next time with my wife, 10 year celebration :)
I like to visit USA from time to time, but would never want to live there as i am sure you wouldnt want to leave USA :).
BG, aha now i get it.My wife has never been to USA.Next time though she wants to follow.
Then your numbers are correct, never thought to count 2 on these trips since most of mine has been business related.my apologies for that
I just think there are fakers here to try and build up their side of an argument. That’s all.
It is good that you like your country and want to live there.
I don’t know much about Sweden….I do remember ABBA though.
Ouch ABBA!!Abba, Björn Borg and Volvo seem to be what we are famous for :), poor us :DNo to mention the myth of polar bear’s on the street’s and that all girls are blond beauties :D , although many girls are.
I hope you are incorrect about these so called faker’s and i personally dont understand why anyone would try to do that.I cant see what the gain could be.Nvm, i’m going to eat dinner and i’ll try to come back tomorrow if the discussion is still going on.
Wow,Americans who pretend to be european!!!It seems it’s the beginning of the end for USA.
Well, there really isn’t any pretending of Americans being European. A large majority of the American population has European ancestry. Mine goes back to the 1650s when the English and later the Dutch came over.
However, there are quite a few transplants from Europe, Germans, Swedes, French, Russians, Irish, English, etc.
The Scots and Irish have a huge influence in the United States when it comes celebrating their heritage. St. Patrick’s Day being an example. Also, the hundreds of bagpipe and drum corps around the U.S.A.
They still have fests in towns that were primarily built on Germanic populations and in Kansas, the town called Little Sweden still has Swedish restaurants and practices some of their old customs.
There are still ethnic Germans in Kansas that still speak their old native tongues daily although rapidly diminishing.
jmenbalescouydesketuracontmec
Where did this idea that Life should be nothing but work, work, work come from? Why is leisure time considered evil and laziness? Life is such a precious gift – why waste the whole of it so some fat cat CEOs, politicians and rich investors can have all the leisure time they want? Why is it not evil and laziness for the CEO to have all the time and money he wants? We’ve been brainwashed into thinking that time off is somehow immoral, that helping poor people get on their feet is evil, that benefits for workers is evil, that national health care is evil. America needs to lose its arrogant attitude that we are the only country that does things right. We do just about everything wrong, now, especially with Republicans in charge.
I’m sure, Kathy Handyside, that America will adopt eventually the best aspects of societies that you portray.
It will be akin of what happened in the 1980s when the Americans studied the extremely efficient Japanese industrial model and took the best parts out of it and adapted.
I doubt we will ever have a pure socialistic nanny society like some countries in Europe, but the transition will most likely be a hybrid of choice and government control.
The only European model we should study, is the National Sales tax..we could do it at 22% which is 18% lower than the Europeans..
as Far as universal health care I say go for it, as long as everybody pays the same for it.. everyone should take 30 dollars a week out of their check..
rich or poorthey all pay the same..
Weird twisted capitalism popping its head up here. How can you really believe that your nation’s productivity is tied to vacation time?If you give a company more for nothing they waste it. Pure and simple. Having recently gone freelance I’m amazed at the ability to work just ten hours to make the same amount of money I used to make in forty or more. How? By cutting out the real welfare state. Unnecessary management. The affluent and lazy deadwood that comes with every large company.Every year North American standards of living go down as corporate profits go up. Why? We let them. The Europeans took some of that back. Here in Canada, I’ve taken some back by going solo (better product, no miscommunication through middle men, no office politicking).The American dollar is currently crippled because of this bizarre infinite capitalism rhetoric. The rich don’t want to contribute to the economy, they want to keep it. Cut the rich out of the picture and your economy will bounce back.
As to this crap about the lazy Europeans not getting the glory of fighting in Iraq… remember Afghanistan? You know the country where the terrorists who attacked the States came from? Why are there as many Canadian troops there as Americans? It’s your war. Finish your job there first, then brag about your productivity.
Damn right, Snitter.
Good post.
Hope to hear more from you.
that is called good ol’ American ingenuity
really as many troops as the US, my link shows 2,600 troops compared to 11,250 american.http://www.scrippsnews.com/node/16626
Thank you very much, it feels good to be ?aprecciated?. I’ve done a degree in English. A small one. I can teach English to children in elementary school. Shame on me if I can’t spell things wright…Yesterday I was already sleepy, eheheheh.I’m leaving work now sorry if didn´t had the time to write some more. I love this, to express, to ‘ear’ opinions and facts.I’ll join again sometime around my 23h00. Now here it’s 18h15.See you :) all, rude and unrude :)
The best country to live is….CUBA!!!
the best country to live is the earth!!!!!!
some stats about the “richest” country of the world.’
35.1 million people lived in households considered to be food insecure.Of those 35.1 million, 22.7 million are adults (10.4 percent of all adults) and 12.4 million are children (16.9 percent of all children).The number of people in the worst-off households (previously called “food insecure with hunger” and now called “very low food security” households) rose in 2005, from 10.7 to 10.8 million. Food stamps increased with nearly 50%.I have even seen higher figures from other organisations but i’ll be generous and take the lower one’s.
http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html
http://www.frac.org/State_Of_States/2006/states/US.pdf
http://www.frac.org/Press_Release/11.15.06.html
If you consider yourself the richest, best country in the world, why not feed your own people?And please if any rebutt’s come, separate EU from Europe.
“productivity” is a lie. why cry for what never existed? like sex you could have had but didn’t. plus, when you die and go to heaven you will be praised for deeds not related to work. if hell, then you will be tormented for deeds related to work.
also i forgot US politics is like driving, choose R to go backwards and D to go forwards. and repubics invented punch clocks democratics invented weekends.
Hey, that’s a good one, Hill.
Hadn’t heard that before.
I like it.
“Of course, Europeans pay a price for their extravagant leisure. The average Frenchman produces only three-quarters as much as the average American, even though productivity per hour is slightly higher in France.”
this mean french go heaven straight after lay around smoke cigarettes drink wine flirt sexy live life and produce more laff much. americans experience wonderfulness of TV characters talk about next day at water cooler, no afford real experience.
Except if they have children hillwomp. Then it’s “what happened to my day exhaustion.”
Assigned generalities to both sides are not very informative about any society.
If you look for the worst of each society, you will probably find it.
Man, ain’t that the truth.
If Americans didn’t have cable TV, they wouldn’t know what to do with themselves when they come home exhausted from another unfufilling day at the office.
155 channels and the American rat-race work-environment are part of the same system: manipulation by powerful forces with the illusion of choice.
We the Sheeple
I’m half swedish half american, with a mother from New york.I live in Sweden and visit the states usually once every year, I’m only 17 years old and don’t know nearly as much about politics as I should (but probably more than most people my age.).Most adults here in Sweden have an indifferent stance towards America, at least around me. I do however know many of them wonder what the hell is going on over there, Bush remaining in his position as president and how alot of americans remain surprisingly naïve.Many of my friends and costudents are less modest when it comes to expressing their thoughts about America though, and let me just say that they don’t like America very much.The post that really made me cringe here was when that one person posted that the American army provides “stability to most of the world, which without, you would have to have a much larger defense budget.”We often tell jokes about the way america think of themselves as the world police, and when I see things like this I’m almost ashamed to be an american citizen.However I don’t see everything in black and white like alot of people seem to do on this blog, and I know that both good and bad people exist in every country, some of the generalization and prejudism here makes me want to puke.What gives America the right to decide who gets to have nukes and who doesn’t?While I whole-heartedly support your taking the nukes away from crazy dictators I’d much like to see it being done by FN and the world as a whole instead of America trying to run around playing world police.About the general well-being in both countries, well I’ve only really seen the wealthy part of America as my relatives there are all pretty well off (Most of them are republican conservative christians, go figure, I still love them though), so I’m not going to comment much about what I’ve actually seen while being there.I do however think that your health system is atrocious. Anyone who supports your current health system and denies that he thinks the wealthy should get better treatment than the poor is outright lying, which in my eyes is just wrong, I think health treatment should be equal for all regardless of money.As for what you choose to do yourself when it comes to days off and working, I really think that should be up to the individual and not be forced on anyone.I don’t particularly think that the system for this in most EU countries work better than the US, I think something in between would be the best.Following some religious holiday to get days off is in my opinion stupid, and I think that you should get to choose on your own when you want to take those days off, but I do not think you should get paid vacation by the government rather you should work this out with your employer, noone should be forced to take vacation if they don’t want to.As to how I got to this site I got there via the link at http://www.moorewatch.com/
Adam, thanks for your post, you make some very accurate observations. You are right that there are a lot of black and white viewpoints here, some grey is always welcome. Take a look at some of the other threads and see what you have to say.
I am 19 years old. My generation, and many others, will work until the day we die. No retirement for us.
Moorewatch.
That webmaster is the guy whose health care Michael Moore donated despite the website’s attempts to discredit him.
–Adam, you are absolutely right in nearly everything you have said. One of the great benefits Europeans have is a standard of living that enables travel to vastly different cultures in close proximity. This makes a huge difference in one’s worldview.
In effect, America’s insularity has always been a double-edged sword, and a primary negative of that is the intellectual and informational disinterest of much of its citizenry. Corporate-controlled media conributes too–because the USA’s media is almost all for-profit, its informational output tends to be something of a feedback loop that covers what it thinks Americans want–which is part of the reason the international news coverage has been radically reduced in this country over the last 30 years. And it’s why health care is what it is here–the corporate bigwigs do a lot of lobbying politicians to keep the system whthe same, and the media who supoort the corporations parrot the idea that health care for all is “socialist,” hence, “un-American.”
The result is a populace that is under the control of its government, the corporations that support it, all the while being told through the complicit media that this is “FREEDOM.”
You should look up the writings of Noam Chomsky if you want answers on how the USA really works.