Good for the Wichita City Council for not only speaking out Tuesday in support of Sedgwick County’s much-maligned downtown arena but also passing a resolution restating the council’s support for the project. The city can help address public concerns about arena parking. But, as City Council member Paul Gray said, "We need to stop this crazy talk about shutting the arena down."
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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35 Comments
JUST THINK … instead of one $300,000,000.40 WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ARENA for which no major activity has yet been found, taxpayers of Wichita could receive ten $30,000,000 REAL improvement projects, or even 100 improvements at $3,000,000 each.
Why are arena supporters and gambling casino supporters so desperate to build these monstrosity projects when there is no call for either one by the public? Yes, a mountain of Sedgwick County taxpayers, some 190,000 taxpayers according to my calculations, FLAT OUT DON’T WANT THE ARENA AND THE WASTE OF MONEY IT REPRESENTS.
The albatross downtown arena and a downtown gambling casino have a lot in common. The up front costs of construction must be eventually paid back by the people here in Sedgwick County. THESE PROJECTS ARE NOT A GIFT HORSE FROM A FAR AS SOME WOULD LIKE TO IMPLY. THEY WILL BE PAID FOR OUT OF THE ECONOMY OF WICHITA … THAT’S YOU FOLKS.
Both are designed to separate the people from their money by providing minimal “value” for their dollar in relation to the up front cost of the facility. Its bright lights, flashing neon, loud noises, sirens then … silence when you don’t win. NOTHING PRODUCED OF VALUE.
At the end of each day, the majority of the income will be bundled up, the BIG MONEY, and loaded onto a fast night train heading to New York or Las Vegas to give the money to the operator or “Star” — leaving only the crumbs, the profits on the peanuts and soft drinks.
SO MANY NEEDS, SO LITTLE TIME but the three hold over county commissioners, DAVID UNRUH, TOM WINTERS AND TIM NORTON can only concentrate on wasting your tax dollars by furnishing taxpayers with ENTERTAINMENT OPTIONS.
County commissioners should be working on providing improvements to the infrastructure of the county: county roads, safety, storm sewers, future water storage needs, etc.
Wake up out there … you are being fleeced already. YOU are about to lose this giant gamble with your money.
I will be casting my NO NO vote today at the election offices in the Historic Downtown Courthouse.
Get over yourself JWink.
The Jwink kook crowd.
Oh well! They can just keep dreaming and screaming.
The Johnson County transplant comes in our community and he thinks he knows whats best. But he’s just full of lies.
I like JWink’s approach to community better. When we don’t maintain our infrastructure and go off on tangents to make the City/County get rich quick schemes, then the concept of progression has failed.
The Arena and Casino is analogous to a home owner buying a house that costs three times as much as they can afford, expecting that their fabulous new home will attract new friends and make them more influential because of the great parties they will throw.
The “party” concept of getting rich and famous has been overplayed and usually fails more than it succeeds.
This isn’t a about getting the local governments rich schemes.
The Downtown Arena replaces one that had to be renovated, forced by the courts, which could have cost us the taxpayers more than building a new one downtown.
The Casino is all done by private investment.
Today Paul Gray is quoted in the Eagle: “The arena itself is not going to drive a great amount of development,” Gray said.
Never mind we were told about all the developoment the arena would bring to downtown, in contrast to none at the Coliseum!
His admission lays it clear for all to see: that the arena is solely a gift to special interests paid for by taxpayers at large.
It is the height of irony for Joe Williams to criticize anyone for lying.
Joe Williams, have you no shame?
Joe Williams, when will you realize the lies you spread?
Joe Williams, when will you live up to even one little speck of the libertarian creed you profess to believe?
Lets just look at a few “details”:
Parking. Promised in the representations made by the arena crowd.Loss reserve: $23,611,000 promised by the arena crowd.Infrastructure improvements to support arena: Promised by the arena crowd.
All these and more were promised to be included in the $184.5 million budget. Is it “talking crazy” to expect that the promises made by the arena crowd be kept?
And the claim that renovation would have cost more is simply a LIE. Typical of the arena crowd.
Well! Such as life! The downtown arena is going to get built!
Accept it!
Where were all you people when the City Counsel spent 25 million dollars on the “Keeper of the Plains” project? Where was your outrage then? A project that is guaranteed to bring 0 dollars to the community. At least the Arena has a chance of development around it and will produce revenue for the community. This hypocritical attitude is amazing. Be consistent or be quiet.
Thus, anonymous, my feeling that the Arena is, at best, premature. It should be a natural extension of healthy, sustainable development already occurring, not an attempt to generate development. I’ve posted on this before, and don’t have links handy, but there are studies done by respected folks with the appropriate credentials in the area which show that the building of a publicly financed facility such as the Arena premised on its ability to generate development do not generate or result in such development. Joe, you are correct; it’s going to be built. Hopefully for all of us, Wichita will be the exception to the rule, not another example proving the rule.
Well, Mike, I don’t recall being able to cast a vote on the Keeper issue. Depending upon how it was marketed to the electorate, I might well have voted no on it as well.
I agree with Vaughn Tolle as I don’t recall of having a voice in the decision for the “Keeper of the Plains” either.
It was probably a politically and perhaps a morally correct thing to do considering all that we’ve done against the Native American.
However, the costs, plans and decision where to place it eludes my memory.
The Keeper has been in the works for many years. It’s part of the Arkansas River Corridor Project, which is know just getting Star Bonds from the State. The Keeper will supposedly be wrapped up with it.
The only thing they said is that the ring of fire is suppose to be on, pretty much all the time. But know they only have it on twice a day for 15 minutes at a time.
I don’t think there’s anything new to be said about this topic. Everything I’ve read so far is exactly the same as on every other arena thread.
Yes, Vaughn, I’ve read several articles like the one you mentioned. That reasoning forms one basis for my opposition to the arena, and to many other forms of public works.
What does it tell us about our local government when it undertakes projects that are so contentious that the winners tell us to “accept it,” “get over it,” or like Randy Scholfield said in an editorial: “You lost.”
Never mind that the arena was decided on a majority vote, a so-called expression of democracy. It’s not all its cracked up to be.
What if we took a vote and the majority decided that there could be nothing like the Peerless Tower ever built in Wichita?
Sorry Joe Williams, accept it. Get over it. You lost. Is that what we would say?
Joe! I have accepted that your arena will be built. I have also accepted that the promises made will not be kept. However, that does not mean that I should ignore the deliberate misrepresentations made by the arena crowd. I will continue to demand that those promises be respected.
Yes! Such is life! Our “leaders” (sic) are liars!
Mike - the amenities around the Keeper/river corridor can be enjoyed free of admission charge by all citizens of the area. That said, I do think they overspent a bit; esepcially on the bridges.
Ben! The door swings both ways. It is not a deliberate misrepresentation from anti-arena people to say that the downtown arena cost $300 million dollars? That is a flat out lie, yet you say nothing about it.
You voted “no” Ben! You can bitch all you want. But you weren’t fooled, because you voted “NO”. Now you are telling everybody they’ve been fooled? You didn’t vote yes, so your point personally is moot.
Although I believe we weren’t fooled. The county made a reasonable preliminary proposal in good faith, numbers subjected to change.
When are you suppose to go up to the County Commission to make your case? I thought you were going to do that? You said you would. Were you lieing? You were suppose to convince them to scrap the arena project and give all the money back to the state.
Joe! Numerous people have told me they were fooled because they believed your lies when they voted. They are the ones who justifiably relied upon your mis-representations.
And JWink is definitely incorrect about his 300 million tag. ALMOST as incorrect as you are with your false claim that renovations would have cost more.
I already spoke to the Commision. They ignored me as expected.
“You were suppose to convince them to scrap the arena project and give all the money back to the state.”
No Joe! I never claimed that I would convince them of reality. Only that I woule tell them reality. There IS a difference. And! I never even tried to get them to scrap it. YOU KNOW THAT! I just wanted them to open a dialog, explain it to the voters, and let us have a say on August 7.
Their motto is “Our minds are made up; please don’t confuse us with the facts!”
“Were you lieing?” NO! Joe! I said I would address the Commission. I addressed the commission. You knew or should have known that!
I could go up to the County Commission and make a solid case against the Arena.
But I might as well put on gasoline underwear and sit in a lit fireplace for all the good it would do.
Albuquerquians thought that a privately financed downtown arena proposal was terrific, but then developer-proposers determined it was necessary to demand a taxpayer-bailout provision to guarantee that the proposers wouldn’t lose a lot of money on their investment. Ahh, the good old corporate welfare scheme: If we can make money in a private venture, it’s a wonderful demonstration of free-market-capitalism can-do; if it tanks, the public must hold the bag. AKA publicize the risks, and privatize the gain.
Albuquerquians rejected the soak-the-little-suckers proposition. They’re too busy building a 21st-century economy, including high tech computer, aviation and auto manufacturing, and most of the rapidly-growing city’s newcomers are more interested in participatory sports, which keep them healthy and fit, rather than sit in your chair mass-audience sports, with lots of fat-building junk food sales.
The Albuquerque-neighboring suburb Rio Rancho approved a publicly financed arena: 8000 seats, 6200 for hockey, cost $47 million. Host to a Central Hockey League team, just like Wichita has. Rio Rancho’s Santa Ana Star Center is being considered by an Arena Football League 2 team, just like Wichita had, but lost due to inadequate ticket sales.
Austin panned a new civic arena. The University of Texas-Austin Erwin Center, built in 1977, was renovated in 2001-2003 at less cost than a new arena. It offers time for Arena League football, and sells open-to-the-public concert tickets. The Central Hockey Leagu Ice Bats play in a 4000-seat hockey facility, which is mostly used for fitness-focused recreational hockey and figure skating for young people.
Portland Oregon opened its gleaming Rose Center arena 7 years ago. But Portland taxpayers were too money-smart to pay for it. Microsoft billionaire Paul Allen, owner of the Trailblazers, had three choices: continue to play in the 1970’s city-owned arena, find a city that would pay big bucks to build a taxpayer-funded arena to have his private basketball team, or build a new arena on his own dime. He chose the last option.
A few years ago Seattlites were challenged by the Sonics owners to either build a new arena, or risk losing the team. The Seattlites said, “If you want to have a private-enterprise facility, build it yourself.” So far, the Sonics aren’t moving, but if they do, it may be to the owners’ hometown Oklahoma City. (Actually, they prefer Kansas City, see below.)
The new arena in Oklahoma City, opened in 2002 at a cost of $89 M, was mostly publicly financed. The OKC metro area had a population of over 1 M people. So its cost was under 25 cents cents per capita taxpayer for every $1 Wichita metro area taxpayers have been saddled with. But actually it was less than this, because area Ford dealers provided sponsorship funding.
The BOK Center in Oklahoma originally was budgeted at $183 M, but final costs are expected to be $240 M. Tulsa metro area has almost twice as many people as Wichita, so BOK will have a per capita taxpayer cost of under 60 cents for every Wichita taxpayer dollar. The Bank of Oklahoma will defray some of this cost.
Kansas City’s Sprint Center is set for completion next year, at a $276 M cost. The Kansas City metro area has more than three times Wichita metro area’s population. Sprint Nextel is providing corporate sponsorship. Bottom line, per capita taxpayer cost for the Sprint Center will be less than 30 cents for every $1 the Wichita arena will cost Wichita metro area citizens.
Denver’s Pepsi Center was completed for $160 M in 1999. In inflation-adjusted dollars that’s close to $200 today. Denver’s metropolitan area had 4 times as many people as Wichita. Plus, PepsiCo, a Fortune 500 global company defrayed costs. Pepsi Center has 80+ NBA and NHL events annually. Bottom line: Denver per capita taxpayer cost less than 25 cents per $1 to Wichita taxpayers.
What is “crazy”? Wichita increased its sales tax to fund the arena’s construction, including on food, which disproportionately saddled low-income people who need to buy food to survive, but cannot afford to attend arena events. The arena will have luxury seating for affluent locals, paid for by the “little guy” middle-class and working-class people who will be denied the enjoyment of sweet accommodations whose creation they have paid for.
We have Communist—I’m sorry I mean Republican– capitalists who are going to make tens of millions of dollars for a facility that will have a negative economic return for the “investors”, i.e. taxpayers. Just like the scheme they pulled for the Hyatt Regency, that taxpayers had to buy. Because the Hyatt’s controlling shareholder Pritzker family’s advisors said, “You can’t afford to build this with our own capital. It’s a loser.” So local builders came up with a scam, “We’ll build it, and then when it tanks, Wichita taxpayer-patsies can pay us.”
The proposed arena has zero corporate sponsorship, and when all is said and done, when the arena subjected to naming-rights competition, and some corporations offer donations, the winning naming rights bid is going to be miniscule.
You have a last-place Central Hockey League team, and cannot support even Arena League 2 football. I forgot to mention that the Loveland Colorado Budweiser Arena, seating 5300, supported the CHL Northwestern Division champions this year.
Taxpayers were presented with an option: pay $150 M (now greatly expanded) for a new facility, or pay $100 M to make Britt Brown handicap-accessible. But they didn’t mention that for $10 M remodeling to create handicap-patron-roomy seating space, and less than $0.1 M /year to hire able-bodied young guys to carry wheelchair-bound patrons to their expanded-floorspace seating tiers, would have satisfied federal law on disabled-persons accommodation. “Here is the choice: spend $250 M for a new arena, or $11 M over the next 10 years to meet federal law requirements.”
And then, without this true-fact reporting, but instead, with grossly inflated figures presented, the new arena proposal passed. But that wasn’t “crazy”. Of course it wasn’t. It was fraudulent, but not “crazy”.
Bottom line: Wichita taxpayers have the “privilege” of paying $3-4 per capita taxpayer relative to other cities paying $1. But it would be “crazy” not to pay this surcharge. Because it would be “crazy” to do some fundamental accounting calculations.
And even here in Wichita decent venues and programs enjoy corporate and provate support. Look at all the named exhibits at our zoo. Koch, Cessna, etc etc etc. Look at all the smaller donations commerated with bricks, benches, etc. Look at the millions raised through membership sales.
Explration Place also raises revenue through memberships and donations. Music Theater raises millions that way. So do symphony and opera.
Why can’t the Arena crowd convince all their corporate buddies to financially support their arena? Wichitans will dig deep into their pockets to support facilities that make sense. This has been shown time and time again. But, for some reason the arena crowd just doesn’t get it.
Well, JWink! I just cast my vote and it went Yes, Yes! So there!!!
White elephant. Waste of dollars better spent elsewhere, or better yet, left in the hands of those who earned them. These are, after all, not Sedgwick County’s dollars, they are the dollars of consumers in Sedgwick County. And that’s more than just Sedgwick County residents (and of course, that’s the way the tax vote was pitched - to pawn funding for this boondoggle off on out-of-county residents who shop here).
But it’s done. The only question is how much more good money will Sedgwick County throw after bad.
And BTW - given that the serious money hasn’t even been spent yet, is there any reason this misbeggoten monstrosity can’t be shut down? I don’t think so; it just takes the political courage to do so.
You are right, MPS. Taxing poor people’s food to pay for entertainment and sports facilities!
Can there be any greater injustice?
Cheered on by so-called libertarian Joe Williams, no less.
Of course, arena supports disguise their selfish pleading as economic development or downtown revitalization.
Now we have Wichita City Council Paul Gray conceding that the promised benefits may not materialize.
But nonetheless, the arena must continue!
In the meantime, private initiative builds office and retail space everywhere but downtown, in spite of our centralized economic planners giveaways.
MPS, your use of the word “communist” was not to far off the mark.
Ah Ben! The Arena got the majority of the votes! Maybe it’s YOU who doesn’t get it, pal! No matter what you say or how you say it I have and will vote YES for the arena. And if you don’t like what’s built you can always MOVE! One thing I hate is a grown man whining!!!!
OMR - yes it did. Based on LIES!
So typical of the CFSMWs of you - “if you don’t like lies MOVE!”
What a sorry strategy for building a town, Old Manor Road: Everyone who loses move away.
It’s easy to gloat when you’re on the winning side. That’s hate expressing itself.
What is CFSMWs?
CommunistsForSpendingMoneyWildly
They are ALL Wichita-haters. That is why they want to see our community saddled with this thing and its operating subsidies.
This is going to be fun:
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/story/130878.html
Commitments loom for countyUpcoming projects such as a jail expansion and a new technical campus have Sedgwick County officials weighing a tax increase.
Kansas Coliseum: $3 million
And wait a few years when the subsidies for the Old Town Arena come due …
What’s done is done. The longer we wait, the more expensive it will get.
The new airport terminal had to be scaled down, because we kept waiting and waiting and waiting.
This arena is going to be built and we will have to deal with it. It isn’t going to be a boondoggle, just like anti-casino people are saying about a Casino in the county, it isn’t going to be a big money maker and bring huge development downtown.
But it will help and it already has. It’s going to be more positive than negative. If you don’t like it, that’s too bad.
I thought the arch on Main Street was a complete waste of money. Or how about the gay amendment vote. The majority decided to stomp on individuals from getting married or forming partnerships. But what is done is done! I have to accept it. You win some and you lose some. Even if you believe the majority who voted made a bad decision.
A perfect example is this up and coming Casino vote. One side is going to be pissed of the outcome. Will they ask for a revote?
Why not? The Arena supporters did!
I like the arena. It’s a terrific example of “Our dad’s did this 30 years ago, we can make them proud by doing it again.” Some critics might call it wheel-spinning, and digging the community a deeper rut, like the casino initiative that replicates Wichita 1972, and if we’re really lucky, Wichita can get famous again for prostitution, like it did in 1872.
I like Craig Miner’s “Magic City”. Call Wichita “The Peerless Princess of the Plains” and the ar-KANS-as River “The American Nile” and the city will blossom. A better title would be “Magical Thinking City”. But magical thinking doesn’t really work, except for the shysters who promote it.
(Actually, at the river headwaters, and its mouth, and in mid-stream Oklahoma, and in the rest of America, Arkansas is pronounced like the older-than-Kansas nearby state’s name, AR-kan-saw, so that when somebody says “ar-KANS-as”, it’s a badge of “I only mastered first-grade-phonics” ignorance.)
Are there really people that pronounce the name of the river as “arKansas” instead of “arKansaw”?
I have had a few morons tell me that Greenwich is pronounced “Green Witch”, but I thought that everyone knew how to say Arkansaw.
Yes Scott there are people like that including me.
There is also an R-Kan-sus City, Arkansas City aka Ark City.
There is also a Kansas River.
You can blame the French on modern day language corruption of Native American Tribe names in this area.
If you look at the original tribe names they aren’t even close to modern day spellings.
If a state wants to pronounce its name Kan-sus or R-Kan-Saw, it is perfectly legitimate. Same goes with river names.
Both are not even close to the original names the N.A.’s called themselves.
BTW, the Kansa N.A.’s are also known as the Kaw, mostly located down in Kay County Oklahoma.
BTW, Kay County was named after the letter “K” when county designations were given in Oklahoma Territory.
Confusing isn’t it.