The shocking news about Wild West World’s bankruptcy filing and shutdown, just two months after the Park City theme park opened, is softened only somewhat by the prospect that the attraction could be sold and reopened. Among the regrets: If members of the community had known sooner how dire the financial situation was, more might have braved the May and June rains and last week’s heat to show their support.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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347 Comments
Is this a reorganization or a liquidation?
I hope they can work their way out of this.
The weather has been awful. I appreciate the risk these people took, and I will go there, for sure, with the kids, if they try to open up again.
LOL no mention of Terry Fox’s involvement, the awful theme?
So from the linked article we learn etheridge sorta :) lied on Sunday night that he had no “intention” of closing the park. I wonder what changed between Sunday night and Monday morning. The weather?
You think the community WANTED to save this sham enterprise for terry fox? I guess Park City did since they are on the hook for over a million in bonds. Who the hell signed THAT deal? What monumental projection mistakes were made on their biz plan? Did they ever have a real biz plan?
Or did it just say “manna from heaven” on the back of a cocktail napkin?
I’m still laughing at the weather. Could we assume god didnt like the park?
Or maybe just the major players at the park?
So much for the good idea of public funding for faith based initiatives.
pmom
If you risked a large chunk of your money and your prestige to try and give us something to enjoy, I would not dance and smile if you failed.
Effort and bravery and vision are great things. Even with all of those things, luck is often required, as well.
I hope that this is just a temporary set-back.
ksfg – I think the bonds are the problem of the bond investors; not the City. Econ? Am I correct on that with IRBs?
ksfg – I think the bonds are the problem of the bond investors; not the City. Econ? Am I correct on that with IRBs?
Ben, with all due respect, I dont think they are IRBs. The city backed general obligation bonds.
What does “city backed” mean? I thought it meant it “guaranteed” it for the investors. That’s the way it used to work. That makes it attractive to the investors. They are buying CITY bonds, not www bonds.
Econ, the guy KNEW Terry Fox was not well liked. And he put him there anyway. There are certain things you should never do in business, one is putting religion into it unless that’s your target market.
I can’t blame anyone for not wanting to go to a park that associates with the likes of hatemonger Terry Fox. Here’s an idea, just house a bunch of people displaced by floods and tornadoes at the park. At last then it will serve some use.
Dammit Doug! Those are INCOME producing assets! You cant have them housing the homeless and feeding the poor and all!
You may be correct ksfg – I haven’t really followed it all that closely. I guess I tended to assume they were IRBs.
Saw a suggection: since utilities etc are in place would that make a good location for a casino.
Oh the irony …
Besides, without those “income” producing assets, they would have no world headquarters for the terry joe and fred “I hate gays” club.
Maybe it’s the “no gays allowed” club like the little rascals had with the “no girls allowed club”?
Oh, wait. I think they kinda do have that “women serve your husbands” thing going on…
“The closing stunned Park City Mayor Dee Stuart, whose city backed $1 million in general obligation bonds for the park.
“I guess we mostly wait to see what happens,” she said. “I still believe it’s a viable business.”
One thing I learned in 21 years of economic development is that there should be no sentimentality in making loans.
Some deals, well, the community should just, uh, walk on by.
Like I said, so much for public funding of faith based initiatives. I wonder how much of the funds, if audited, went into a pot other than general funds?
This could get very interesting, especially if the SBA is involved. But then, toddly tiahrt will probably consult bush about a pardon…
Hey! We can build the new white eleph . . . er . . . I mean the new arena there; complete with parking, seating for 12 and Terry Fox thrown in for good measure. Should be able to fill it up at least 45% of the time.
Have any of you actually gone to the park to support it?My family and I bought season passes and had a blast everytime we went.I’m very disappointed at the closing of http://WWW.I went for the rides and entertainment.I couldn’t give a hoot about any religious affiliation to terry fox.I don’t know enough about him to pass a judgement…though i thought only the “supreme being” was only allowed to do that. Well to those of you who would not support WWW you missed out on something good. It’s just too bad Tom and Cheryl couldn’t make it through the first season.
Econ101, the case is filed as a Chapter 11 reorganization. My read is that there was a need for court protection so a sale could be arranged. If the sale falls through, a conversion to a Chapter 7 liquidation won’t be far behind, IMHO.
Season pass holders, at this point, will likely be treated as general creditors, much as those who have prepaid subscriptions are treated when a magazine, e.g., files for Bankruptcy. If a sale may be consummated, then I would hope one of the terms thereof would be that the passes be honored.
It is difficult for me to believe that Park City issued GO bonds for this enterprise.
Good points VT. I am especially surprised Park City would do that; shouldn’t those have been IRBs?
I wonder about due diligence.
AH if you don’t know enough about Terry Fox’s hateful religious/politics, then you haven’t paid very close attention. While there is really hardly anyone I can put in the same category as Fred Phelps, Terry Fox would come as close to it as you can get.
Ben, I would have expected the bonds to have been IRBs, if one may issue tax-qualified Industrial Development Bonds (IRC speak for what we generally call IRBs) for a theme park.
VT – an aside question: If they mandate “English-only” would that put you out of business?
;^)
well, that’s what you get for doing business with a crook and a hatemonger. i’ll let YOU decide which one is which. or are they one and the same?
mwahahahaha!
Nah, Ben, I’d just be killing more trees. :-)
Is Dee Stuart related to the folks that own WWW?
Yea VT, but if they write in English we don’t need you to translate.
A funny – I wrote a bill (legislature) once and could barely recognize it after they translated it into legalese.
sts – if she is then she will be in a heap of hurt on this. VT? Comments counselor?
If she is, and I know nothing one way or the other on this, then she should have not been involved in any way in the discussions or voting on the issuance of GO bonds to finance the project as a matter of good practice, regardless of any laws on the subject.
You guys are nuts if you think Fox caused attendance to drop. Hello – rain, thunder, lightening – those are all things that WILL keep people from attending the park. Too bad they didn’t have enough of a reserve built to sustain them through the storms (pun intended).
People always complain about how there is nothing to do here, but yet celebrate when businesses fail (and this owner invested HIS money).
Now what is actually odd is that someone thought anyone wanted to go to Park City in the first place…for anything. The only reason anyone went there on Sunday was to buy liquor…
And now that excuse is out the door.
So obviously the grand ideas of a Coliseum,Race track, Western theme park up there and far away from the population base worked out well.
Is there a place to put the people who come up with these hair brained ideas for a “time out”, and let grown ups run things for a while.
Let me think on how this new “Park City Method” process works…now to be called (PCM)1st. – Lets build a business as far away from the largest customer and population base as possible.
2nd. – Go tits up.
p_mom I care more about the doggy mine field in my backyard than I do about religion if you catch the drift.Never have cared about it probably never will.Religion(organized) has done nothing but incite anger and violence in people so I have no place for it in my life at this time.Besides this was a family based theme park if Terry Fox was there who cares… there are still 7 days in a week and they’re not all named Sunday last I checked.
Exactly AH. But Terry Fox always went to the capitol and worked behind the scenes to create the policies YOU have to live by. That is why you should care.
And that other poster who doesn’t believe Fox had a big role, read all the other blogs and posts and articles already who have cited him as the SOLE reason for not going there. It aint just a few of us.
So PMom, let’s hear these big roles that you claim Terry Foxx had.
Read other blogs PMom?
No, I think I want a better source than Blogs.
mrbill – people drive to Kansas City to go to attractions and events. I doubt that the distance to Park City has much to do with it – especially since for many of us Park City is no further away in time than is Wichita.
How are the Wranglers doing? They are downtown.
No, I think I want a better source than Blogs.Posted by: Republican | July 09, 2007 at 03:38 PM
Ahhhh…so says the most completely dishonest posters here. Someone should tell the troll to stop projecting so much.
Blogs show opinion of many different people. I don’t really care if you agree with it or not.
You know I would just assume keep my tax dollars here in kansas to support the economy here than drive to branson or even kansas city.What Tom and Cheryl tried to do here was a good thing.They had alot of people in their employ.I have to admit after checking into the Fox thing that having him at WWW probably was not a wise choice but as I can only speak for myself…I went for the rides and entertainment not to see Terry Fox.
ROFL
anybody seen any attendance numbers? I saw them once, can;t find them now
Never in my life have I ever run into so many narrow minded people.For being such a supposed “christian” population there are alot of judgmental persons in these here blogs.
The lord works in mysterious ways.
Littlejohn,
Etheredge told Ch. 12 they were getting “a few thousand visitors a day.” This was in late June.
Tom-Thanks
Looking at it from a business perspective I have to wonder about his market studies and his planning. As someone else noted you have to count on at least a year to get off the ground; was this venture sufficiently capitalized? Also, is there sufficient demand within, say, a 100-mile radius?
My family looked forward to purchasing park passes. Our enthusiasm stopped when Terry Fox moved into WWW. I really wanted this park to succeed, but the presence of Fox kept our family away. Sad.
Seems like the Christian ideals that Tom E claimed he would operate his business according to don’t include paying your bills and refunding the cash you stole from the season pass holders. He must have that special version of the bible with 11 Commandments.
#11 Thou shalt not steal, unless it is permissible under federal and state bankruptcy law. In that case, thou shall take full advantage of those laws and stiff your customers and creditors for the maximum amount, less 10%, for that portion of the ill gotten gains is due the lord.
Ben, it seems to me that the venture was undercapitalized. From Etheredge’s statement, he in part blames cost overruns for some of the financial difficulties. I’m sure the weather had a part in it, as did the lack of perceived good rides, and I’m beginning to think the presence of the Summit Church on the property was a bit more negative than I thought initially. There seems to be a feeling among many that the admission was too high for what was being offered (I don’t know about that, as the admission didn’t seem outrageous to me for a “theme park”). The lack of a roller coaster of some type seems to be an issue for some.
I questioned the cowboy theme of the park when I first heard about it, which I believe is a part of the problem. Yes, the Prairie Rose seems successful, but its fiscal footprint is much smaller than that needed to have a “break even” amusement park, one which likely is satisfied by those who really want to have the “cowboy experience”. I am aware of the successes enjoyed by the Prairie Rose Wranglers in their journeys to Carnegie Hall and to China, for example, but question whether those isolated events translate into recurring crowds in Sedgwick County, Kansas. Seems to me that most folks in these parts don’t want reminding of the “old West” (see Cowtown, e.g., and its problems), or alternatively, don’t want that to be the overriding theme for their entertainment.
It is my thought that the demand for an amusement park within a 100 mile radius is likely such that the Kansas City parks will satisfy the same, given some other attractions to the Kansas City area not present in the Wichita area. Many folks within the 100 mile radius likely come to Wichita on a regular basis for many things, medical care, shopping, and for Wild West World to serve as an attraction, there would need to be something there which outdoes the parks in Kansas City. Thus, as to Wichita/Sedgwick County, “familiarity breeds contempt”, and the attractions of Wild West World, such as the same were, were not sufficient to overcome this. Stated another way, why go to Park City to go to an amusement park when the surrounding environs are very familiar, when a trip to KC provides something not a part of the regular routine together with (at least a) perceived better place to go if an amusement park is part of the plan?
A telling quote from this afternoon’s Eagle update on the story:
“But his attorneys outlined a picture where cash flow was drying up as attendance dwindled.”
Attendance dwindled…as weather conditions improved.
Ooops.
Tom, beat me to it. Very telling statement. The situation with some of the rides not being operable from time to time likely had something to do with this as well as the price of admission (which, as I posted above, doesn’t seem too outrageous to me). Again, not a place to where I’d have been going, given my interests, grown children, etc.
Judging from the extremely negative comments connected to the Eagle article I would guess that Etheridge has some enemies. Also, the Terry Fox connection hurt.
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/117812.html
I visited Wild West World three weeks ago last Friday. I have encouraged others to visit at work and other places. However, I was slightly disappointed in what was offered for the entrance fee. Aside from the log flume and the acrobats the park seemed low on offerings.
I am saddened to hear the park closed, but I expected it’s life would short. Joyland and Fantasea were smaller scale attractions in the Wichita area which languished in recent memory.
Further, I think it is unlikely the owner’s pledged all or most of their assets against the loans as they assert on their website.
Ben, I’m sure you saw the posts concerning the Summit Church being a creditor to the tune of $401,000 or so. Wondering, as did the poster of the comment, whether the membership were aware.
Okay people, ready the adobe file (click on the article, the link is under the picture and look at the list of creditors that funded WWW- listed prominently you will find:SUMMIT CHURCH– 400,000.One of summits leaders, and a so called youth minister- 300,000.That’s over 700,000 from summit church! Facts! Come on wichita eagle, don’t let us down, investigate this and find out what is going on. I just looks really shady to me.
Trent, the schedules to be filed in the Chapter 11 proceeding will likely answer that.
I think probably what hurt it as much as anything was the offering for the price. I had not gone yet, but from everything I heard it was a been there, done that kind of experience. One visit was enough. Frontier city is close enough, and cheaper, if just for a day trip and can do a water park in same weekend. For same money as WWW. People look for value.
They are all theives!!!
And the biggest reason the park failed: IT SUCKED!!!! NO ROLLAR COASTERS! NO real rides. TO0 expensive. Stupid a-hole blaming it on the greensburg tornado. What a prick.
Etheredge could find himself in deep personal doo-doo. There’s over 3/4 of a million in unpaid payroll and other taxes.
When you’re in business, payroll taxes come FIRST. This could get verrrry interesting.
There is no shame in trying to do something good and failing, there is for those who never try and then criticize those who do.
There is shame in trying to do something for your own personal ego, ruining people’s lives along the way and using them like peons. Get real, Mark.Welcome to the crazy world of Etheridge and Fox. God is with us, so we are going to use CHURCH FUNDS TO BUILD A THEME PARK!!!!!
There is no shame in trying to do something good and failing, there is for those who never try and then criticize those who do.
Hmmm, Ralph Machio of N.Y. was an investor of $75,000. The “Karate Kid?” :D
I just watched the news and they interviewed a family that drove down here from KC and now, no park. They had 11 Season Passes. All goes to waste.
Mark, keeping saying it over and over, and you will be right in no time!
Remember, Mark, ignore all of the facts, and keep telling your self you are right. You are on your way to Terry Fox theology. Next course, Narcisicm 101
Tom, the tax figures were estimates. What makes this really interesting insofar as Mr. Etheredge is concerned is a recent court decision involving the personal liability of the members of an LLC for employment taxes (sorry, no cite). As you are likely aware, generally when payroll taxes are withheld but not deposited, there is personal liability for these, imposed as a so-called 100% penalty on the responsible party (usually the officer or director with actual signing authority on the payroll account, and/or who had discretion over the depositing of the taxes) called “trust fund” taxes, but not for the employer’s share of FICA and Medicare taxes. The case to which I refer found that the members of an LLC were personally liable for both the trust fund taxes and the entity’s obligation for the payroll taxes. IRS may well have issued final regs on this in the past week or so clarifying the situation, to make it more like a corporate matter (the corporation’s liability for the employer’s share does not fall to the responsible party as a personal liability), but as of the end of June, these regs were not out. Kansas imposes personal liability for undeposited withholding upon the officers and directors of a corporation, which, by extension (as I’ve not had to research this) would apply to the members of an LLC engaged in the operation of the business. To all accountants and other tax professionals out there, I know I’m over simplifying here.
Reading the filing shows the only member of the LLC was the closely-held corporation owned, as near as I can tell, by the Ethredges. Thus, this may shield him personally from liability, although I suspect the veil may be pierced should IRS go after it/him.
I wonder if any plan to move to Florida? :)
I seem to recall that sales taxes can also go to the owner of an LLC.
And, if it was sufficiently undercapitalized might other creditors pierce the veil?
Vaughn,
I’m familiar with most of what you posted, except for the recent case. Thanks for posting all that, though. I don’t know tax law enough to know how to explain it clearly here on the blog, but I do know Etheredge is gonna find himself in a heap of doo with the IRS.
One point I’ll make for the general blogosphere: The taxes Etheredge didn’t pay are the ones he withheld from his employees’ paychecks. It’s their money, not his, and he probably violated business Tax Rule Number 1: NEVER NEVER NEVER spend the withheld taxes. Never. If you’re tempted, transfer the money to the IRS _immediately._ Don’t even THINK you get to “dip in” to it. Don’t even keep that money in your regular checking account.
Etheredge has basically stolen money from his employees, and he should have known better.
I don’t know how much of investment was made by a church, but if i was on the Church Finance Committee, I would have certainly said no and would have asked for resignations for even proposing such an idea.
Maybe that’s the conservative part of me, I think Churches should remain Churches and external investment is best left to private individuals. Call me old fashioned…
I thought tax event money was held in escrow?
Not necessarily Rep – but it should be as Tom noted.
Republican, you can know how much money the church gave to the park, it’s listed under the main article, the adobe document.
Best practice if your business has payroll: Open a separate payroll checking account, and transfer 100% of your payroll obligation into it every pay period. That includes state & Federal withholding, Social Security, Medicare, disability, and unemployment taxes. Your share AND your employees’ shares. That account should never be used for anything but paying employees and settling taxes.
Yeah Stalker, I saw the PDF and am unhappy that a Church decided to use funds to invest in such an operation.
As I said before, I’m a bit old fashioned about using Church money for things other than for Church purposes, including “love offerings” for political speeches. In fact, I’ve never attended or been a member of a church that allowed “political” speeches to be part of the program.
“Money changers” in the Church reminds one of the story of Jesus when he got angry and displayed his wrath upon the greedy.
But that’s off topic. :D
Republican, I couldn’t agree with you more.
Ouch!He even got the Eagle for $9,986.19That is a bad choice to stiff the media.
If private gambling was legal, I’d wager $5 that the $400,000 Wild West World owes Summit Church is “laundered” money.
- Etheredge needs a tax deduction- Etheredge needs money for WWW- Etheredge donates $400k to Summit Church- Summit Church “invests” $400k in WWW.
Many don’t like Etheridge as a person or what he represents with his cowboy image.
He put himself too far forward as identity of the park.
He failed first, a bad marketing plan.
The park lacked financing to finish it more.
Don’t theme parks begin with roller coasters, those kinds of rides?
I’m not shocked its closing with Etheridge as face of the park.
I wonder if business finds it a worthwhile opportunity. Another buyer can be found? The marketing image has to change.
It’s not Wichita’s fault yet. The weather did keep some from going out there.
Many aren’t instant consumers either. I don’t rush out to purchase brand new manufactured things. Tech and design flaws take a year to work out.
More might have visited the park next year and that should be in the planning.
Can’t count on the first visitors to save the park.
I was gonna mention that the “church” money was donated to the church for its mission under the IRS 501(c)3 rules. I wonder if building a for profit theme park fits into their 501(c)3 mission?
And the tax free donations were used to support a for profit operation. I wonder if that meets the rules?
IIRC, the little ayatollah got run out of his last church empire for questionable fiscal practices.
De ja vu all over again? A leopard never changes its spots? And this time they all sucked in the tax payers of Park City.
Can I say it? Jesus wept.
Farmgrrl,
I think we’re seeing just the tippy tip top of a very nasty iceberg. This is all gonna play out in the media over the next several months, and it’s not going to go well for Little Ayatollah and his friends.
From your lips, Tom, to god’s ears. Karma, she’s a bitch, aint she?
I can tell you also, that the man has not been paying all his unemployment taxes. Several employees I worked with, who were either terminated, or quit, said they had problems filing for unemployment benifits. All had worked for WWW for over a year, yet WWW in some cases reported that they had only worked a few weeks. Scumzilla!!
And someone earlier commented that etheridge invested HIS money.
Uh, that is only partly right. He invested some of his money to LEVERAGE more money. And the leveraged, or borrowed money was O.P.M. Other People’s Money.
Its the creditors, vendors and taxpayers who will pick up the big tabs. The amount owed is greater than the equity. That’s why it’s called bankruptcy.
Ben, I am not ignoring you, just had to earn a living today, after my original posts on this thread.
VaughnVERY good posts and points.
My opinion?
The IRS puts limits on “private use” bonds. I see NO way that Park City could have issued General Obligation bonds for WWW.
I have been trying to find out who issued the bonds. Would be easy to do if I still worked in the Clerk’s office. Here is something someone with time on their hands can do: Look up the address of WWW in the County property tax roles.Most likely, it is held in trust. Park City could be the “trustee” which simply gives WWW the property tax break they wanted.I believe, for GO bond to pass muster with the IRS, the property would HAVE to be owned by the government, not simply “held in trust” until the bond issue was paid off.Again, I think the bond holders are in better shape than the ticket holders or other general creditors.However, I DOUBT very seriously that Park City, the County, the State or any other government agency will stand behind the bond debt. At least, not in any amount that exceeds the “collateral”, the WWW land and improvements which might be held “in trust”.
For those who are unfamiliar with the property tax rolls, If you look up the address for any of our major manufacturers, you will find the property is actually held in some form of a “trust” with a government subdivision as “trustee” of sorts, if any IRB’s are currently attached to that property.
Vaughn, do you see anything wrong with the above assumptions I made?
A quicker way to say it:
The IRS would not allow GO bonds if the City or County or State did NOT own the property, outright! These bonds would be subject to AMT or alternative minimum tax, etc., as “private use” or IRB bonds. Therefore, IRS rules apply.
Furthermore, IRB’s arent generally guaranteed by the political subdivisions which approve them.
Been looking for an actual bond offering. I would like to know who the “investment banker” was for these bonds.
I do very little individual bond work, mostly use mutual funds and unit trusts for tax free needs.
Even so, I am curious too. I will keep digging.
I want this WWW project to work, somehow, but the more I read, the more depressed I get.
So then paulie, you are saying the Eagle is lying about the bonds being GO? Because it says so in the linked articles.
Nice to know if the Eagle is correct, there are even MORE serious problems to come with the IRS.
I thought GO bonds meant the bonds were backed by the general obligation of the city. In other words, investors buy them because they are backed by the full faith and credit of the city. I dont think they are limited liability, up to the amount of “collateral”.
I think they will have to back the full amount of the g.o. bonds as issued to the investors. Of course they are not backing ALL the www debts.
Just the G.O. bonds of over one million dollars. Gee, I wonder how THAT money could have been used by the citizens of Park City.
This was published in Ark Valley News:
(PUBLISHED IN THE ARK VALLEY NEWS ON MAY 18, 2006)
ORDINANCE NO. 743-2006
AN ORDINANCE AUTHORIZING AND PROVIDING FOR THE ISSUANCE OF $1,000,000 PRINCIPAL AMOUNT OF TAXABLE GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS, SERIES 2006-A, OF THE CITY OF PARK CITY, KANSAS; PROVIDING FOR THE LEVY AND COLLECTION OF AN ANNUAL TAX FOR THE PURPOSE OF PAYING THE PRINCIPAL OF AND INTEREST ON SAID BONDS AS THEY BECOME DUE; AUTHORIZING CERTAIN OTHER DOCUMENTS AND ACTIONS IN CONNECTION THEREWITH; AND MAKING CERTAIN COVENANTS WITH RESPECT THERETO.
WHEREAS, the City is a city of the second class, duly created, organized and existing under the Constitution and laws of the State; and
WHEREAS, pursuant to the Constitution, particularly Article 12, Section 5, thereof and statutes of the State, including K.S.A. 12-101 et seq., as amended, by proceedings duly had, the governing body of the City has passed Ordinance No. 726-2005 (the “Authorizing Ordinance”), which authorized the execution of a Development Agreement, dated as of December 1, 2005, between the City and Wild West World, Inc. (the “Development Agreement”); and
WHEREAS, the Development Agreement provides that the City will make an economic development loan in the amount of $1,000,000 (the “Loan”) to Wild West World, Inc. to induce said party to develop, construct and equip a Western-themed amusement park and associated theater, shopping area and parking facilities within the City; and
============
There’s more, here’s the link:
http://www.arkvalleynews.com/web/isite.dll?1148049752531
Just another Park City failure. They gave them millions of dollars in tax abatements not including the cool million in bonds. Didn’t last two months and Park City, once again looses big.
From what a lot of people who work out there are saying is that the Etheredges had no business running a theme park. No experience and poorly executed and planned.
There is no doubt, he’ll sell it to an Amusement Company, for less than he paid to build the thing. It’s a turnkey operation. So it should be easy.
Etheredge will probably walk away with a few million and the investors and banks he coaxed into the park will lose out, including Park City.
Shame! What is the hotel owner in front of WWW going to do?
I guess Tom, that will be hard to explain on Park City’s next budget meeting.
Look for leadership changes in Park City. :D
Am I wrong that the only connection between the park and the Terry Fox church was the church happened to meet in the theater on Sunday’s?Do you know how many Jr. High and High School Gym’s and Theaters are used for Church services across the country?If you are calling out the park’s demise based on the faith of the owners, you are a bigot and you are no better than anyone else you claim to preach “hate.”
I am shocked the park closed this quickly. Obviously a terrible business model or control freak owner could have had something to do with it. But I can’t believe they couldn’t sustain a couple of months of losses.
On the other hand, I know of some really cheap property for a future Casino or Arena. :D
My apologies.It appears that there was a GO bond offering.I am wondering if there was also an IRB?
The political subdivision was free to do an economic development loan, seperate and appart from standard IRB issues.
Complicated and unusual.
Please, lets not jump to the conclusion that it was criminal.
they should put a gigantic coaster along 1-35 and watch people come
From former AG Carla Stovall’s opinion on GO bonds
“”14. The general obligation bonds are to be paid from the city mill levy. K.S.A. 10-102. In contrast, the revenue bonds are paid out of the revenue stream of the improvements financed. K.S.A. 10-1201. See Black’s Law Dictionary 162, 163, 1185 (5th ed. 1979).”
If Park City had issues revenue bonds, the proceeds would have come from “revenue”. But because they are general obligation bonds, they are backed by the city’s taxing authority.
Look for increased mill levy coming soon to a park city near you.
PS Paulie, I found that using the google.
Myboyz,
It’s not people’s _faith_ that’s questioned or criticized. It’s how Terry Fox politicized his congregation, how he was driven from his former church (Immanuel Baptist) after misdirecting tens of thousands of Immanuel’s money, and then showed up with Immanuel’s biggest donors to form his “new” church. Who were those big donors? Why, the Etheredges, of course.
If Tom and Cheryl Etheredge chose to let someone with Fox’s reputation, history, and radical political agenda be the centerpiece of their theme park, that’s their choice. But don’t bitch because some of us (many of us!) refuse to go there.
No paulie, it’s not “Complicated and unusual”. It’s the way economic development works.
This is speculation on my part, but I bet they couldnt sell the revenue bonds for enough money. The investors, who do GREAT due dilligence, likely did not find the project “revenue” projections were not solid enough to back the bonds.
Selling g.o. bonds is easier, because, they are backed by the taxing authority of the city. Better risk mitigation for the investors so they are willing to pay more for the bonds.
At least that’s how it used to work. Revenue bonds sell on the strength of the project. G.O. bonds sell on the strength of the city’s financial position and the bond ratings.
Etheredge served about 4 ½ years in prison in the late 1980s. Records indicate about 2 ½ years were in Kansas prisons. Etheredge was paroled in 1989.As an investment banker based in Dallas, Etheredge said he had homes and offices scattered around the world.
He described his securities business as “cutting-edge,” but legal. But his activities drew the attention of state and federal authorities.
He was later charged with numerous counts of securities fraud in Texas, Kansas and Missouri.
After years of legal fights Etheredge was charged with 27 counts of securities fraud in Wyandotte County District Court.
The charges involved selling unregistered securities and making false and misleading statements in selling securities to several Kansas residents, according to court records. He pleaded no contest to nine counts in Kansas and other charges in Missouri.Etheredge was ordered to serve five years in prison and pay $788,000 in restitution, according to Kansas court records.He was released in 1989.
WowReading more.
Wichita does NOT do things this way.Nor the County.
As far as the IRS issues, well, if the City issues GO bonds and prommises that the CITY will pay for those bonds, and if the revenue is backed by a tax and not paid by the “private use” business — forget what I posted earlier.The GO bondholders are “safe” it would appear, right Vaughn?Also, the IRS stuff concerning private use bonds means that the business, IE: Boeing, Learjet, Raytheon, Textron, pays the bonds through revenues. This is why they are called “industrial revenue bonds.”
This was an odd financing arrangement. Wouldnt any investment banker do an IRB issue for them?
Not if the investment banker cant sell the bonds for a dog of a project.
Obviously the potential bond purchasers didnt believe in the project, they believed in the taxing authority of the city.
Holy Cow Williams!
I didnt know THAT!
Heheheheh. Things that make ya go hmmmmm…….
fermgirlI dont think I am arguing with you on this one, am I?
Even so, I would think the average person would find the difference between a GO bond and a private use or IRB bond a bit complicated.
Tiahrt better get in the buchco pardon cue. I think his buddies are gonna need it. Chuck Colson anyone?
myboyzdad, I’ve had the displeasure of listening to Terry Fox and his hate speech in the capitol building, trying to bully lawmakers into voting his way. My own senator got so angry with his strongarming ways that he permanently kicked him out of his office.
And my senator is a conservative christian. That has GOT to say a lot.
I’m pleased as punch to see the same back to his merry group of so-called Christian thugs. When you live by the sword, you die by the sword.
ESPECIALLY now to see how much fiscally Terry Fox’s church was in with the park. I guess I made the right decision when I vowed never to spend one red cent in that place. It would have eventually funded back to Fox. I don’t know how that can even be legal. They tried to fleece Kansans, and we weren’t buying it!
…and did terry fox ever pay his property taxes?
I did not know of the Etheridge family’s support of Terry Fox. But I still fail to see that if you thought the park was a viable family attraction why you wouldn’t go. I am certainly what would be considered an outsider, but never heard much of the church affiliation other than reading something that they were meeting in the theater on Sunday’s before the park opened. If I am wrong about this that’s my bad. My family and I are new to the community and just hadn’t had the time yet to get out their but would have. We thought of buying season passes but opted for the Zoo instead. I’m glad we did.
OhOne thing Farmgirl.The “increase” in the mill levy would really come from the loss in income that Park City must have been projecting from sales taxes, etc. if the project worked.They already HAD to pay the bonds, remember? Whether WWW worked or not, Park City issued GO bonds and the bonds have to be paid, regardless!
Also, I would guess that this financing deal is very unusual, nationwide.As a percentage, how many GO issues for private “loans” are there, as opposed to IRB issues?
A very small percentage.
That is why I define this as unusual.
BWAHAHAHA! After Joe’s post, my gosh are ALL fundies hypocritical swindlers????
Can we call it how we see it or what???????????
My guess is the church will continue to meet their as well?It’s just sad. The people of the community deserve something like this to do. However Wichita is not and will never be a destination city. If that’s what it takes for something like this park to be successfull, it will never happen.
Paulie, every project I ever worked on that was shakey got financed with g.o. bonds. It isnt all that uncommon. Google it in Kansas. The thing is, as you correctly pointed out, most people dont know about it. They just think a bond is a bond is a bond.
Until the piper has to be paid.
And paulie, Park City hasnt lost any real revenue. Just “projected” revenue. What they LOST was their $1 mil loan to WWW. They intended to pay the bonds with LOAN PROCEEDS, not sales tax money.
WWW was supposed to pay off the city’s general obligation bonds. When they fail to do that, the city will pay it out of their general revenue funds. That may or may not require a mill levy increase.
Increased assessed valuation may cover it. But either way, as you free market, unfettered capitalist, anti-welfare guys always say…
…it comes out of the TAXPAYER’S pocket. Not www’s shallow pockets.
Well, since you just moved to town, you’ll get a pass, somewhat.
But remember that those of us who’ve lived here and had to deal with this group, know more about it than you do. Why on earth would you expect me to spend money for a cause I don’t agree with? If they want to reopen the theme park, let it be religion and politics free.
Is Kansas just a magnet for whacky fundies or what? Phelps, Operation Rescue, Fox… now the Spirit One church too?
“BWAHAHAHA! After Joe’s post, my gosh are ALL fundies hypocritical swindlers????”
No pmom. Just the republican ones.
And to add to your list pmom, dont forget the Kansas Board of Education and Connie Morris.
Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
RAMEN!
Some fun IRS reading on Private Activity Bonds:http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p4078.pdf
PMom,
Too bad you missed Wichita Pride. We had Spirit One’s “pastor,” Mark Holick, arrested for trespassing. He and several of his congregants tried to crash the festival, and refused to leave.
FarmgirlYou are correct.WWW would have paid the loan and the loan would pay the debt.
I wrote too fast.
The purpose of eco devo is to raise sales taxes, property taxes, provide jobs etc.
I am sorry on this one.
You were right, I am wrong.
Park City will bite the million bucks. Gives them an incentive to find a buyer, or run it themselves, huh?
I will be there next year Tom..I promise!
I so wish I had been there for it.
so would have enjoyed seeing that hypocrite get arrested
I would hope that the Summit church will get to continue to meet in the theater, but nothing is certain.
Business 101 tells you that you have to have operating funds available while business builds, and a line of credit available. The project basically generated no excitement, was not promoted properly and had the misfortune of poor weather. But to close after only two months is weird.
I understand that Etheridge became a Christian after his prison experience. And the thought that allowing Summit church to rent the theater for services had anything to do with the business failure is ridiculous.
The purpose of eco devo is to raise sales tax REVENUES, Income tax REVENUES and property tax REVENUES and raise employment, I should have said.Without those goals, why do it?
An admission, farmgirl:
I am just a humble investment guy with a mostly middle class client base.
The last time I was this sick to my stomach was when that “church bond” underwriter went broke. You know, the one connected to Jim and Tammy Faye Baker?
I lost alot of “honest” business to the dishonest church bond business of that time.
Yes, I am a conservative. Yes, I hate it when any business fails, I hate it more when good people get hurt.
Prison? I need to read up on this guy.To me this is still a business story. Unbelievable that two months of losses, no matter how extreme, couldn’t be handled.Does anyone know what kind of schedule the park kept during the week or so of rain a couple weeks back? Did they attempt to open for the 30 or whatever people showed up or rain out?
Ah, outlander, you a member?
That would explain a whole lot.
At least Paul feels bad when churches are crooked.
“At least Paul feels bad when churches are crooked.”
Please explain your accusation.
I said the church bond company was crooked, not necessarily the church
Will Terry go with the park to the new buyers? That may be a hard sell!
I can’t believe all this crap. This was a great amusement park. It failed because it didn’t attract enough customers. Because of weather? Maybe not enough rides? In anycase it was wonderful entertainment for families. My family was there on Sunday. We had a great time and I am very sorry it is closing.
Outlander, I’m a grandmother who spends money on my grandkids. Don’t we all if we can? I wouldn’t take them to THIS theme park because Etheredge allowed Fox and his kind to hold their so-called “services” on the grounds. That was the ONLY reason I didn’t go there to spend my money. We drove to World’s of Fun in KC — spent lots more money for meals out, hotel rooms, gasoline…
You say, “And the thought that allowing Summit church to rent the theater for services had anything to do with the business failure is ridiculous.” I can only tell you he didn’t get admissions from me and four children because of his support of Fox and his type of “religion.” The minute he allowed that church on the grounds I made my decision to never spend a penny at his place of business.
Outie, if you think the fox connection had no influence on the lack of customers, you are whistling past the graveyard.
Denial. It’s not just a river in Egypt anymore.
I second that, Linda. I wouldn’t have wished it to fail, but I would not have gone because of the Fox association.
After checking other articles about WWW, it seems there were a lot of people who felt the same way.
Are you going to stop going to Worlds of Fun now?
http://www.worldsoffun.com/public/news/special_events.cfm
Are you really any better for hating them for their beliefs?
Thank you Paul for admitting you were wrong. I really appreciate and resect folks who can say it. No big deal. I’m sorry too that this deal stinks worse the more ya know. It makes it hard on good economic development folks.
I had a bond broker from Chicago tell me three years ago that EVERY deal she had done in Kansas had been a dog. She came out here not wanting to do the deal. Why add another dog to the portfolio?
We convinced her otherwise, but what a shame that so many of our local governments have that reputation.
Couple that up with us being known as the world wingnut headquarters, and the wingnut connection to this deal and you have the perfect storm for other communities working good deals.
Myboyzdad,
How many radicalized churches, pastored by men run off by former congregations for misusing tens of thousands of dollars, are currently having weekly services on Worlds of Fun’s property?
“Are you really any better for hating them for their beliefs?”
You just dont get it, do you?
They are not hated for their beliefs. They are hated for the way they impose their beliefs on those who do not share them.
They pervert the government for their own use. They inflict incredible pain on the ones they scapegoat.
And these guys? Might just be hated for being crooks.
No wonder Jesus threw out the money changers…
Well, I was all wrong about WWW. I said it wouldn’t last two years. I guess I was 22 months over optimistic.
myboyzdad, I don’t need to feel hate to make a decision not to do business at a place.
“How many radicalized churches, pastored by men run off by former congregations for misusing tens of thousands of dollars, are currently having weekly services on Worlds of Fun’s property?”
And how many invested almost half a million dollars in Worlds of Fun?And how many season pass holders for Worlds of Fun were bilked?
I dont think this is a score keeping game you really want to play.
My point was if he had done events like Gospel Night at Wild West World it would have been better off.But you all sound just so damn bitter I think it’s pathetic.It’s not your lives. Why can’t you just enjoy something for what it is?I never went to Wild West, but none of the pictures I’ve seen show cruxifixes, “Gods Hates” signs, etc.I just really think there is a half a dozen people on here enjoying the demise of something that should have been good for the community over strictly political beliefs which is bs.
It will open back up! Under new ownership and management of course. :)
“It’s not your lives. Why can’t you just enjoy something for what it is?”
Damn that sounds just like what us sinful homosexuals said to the lords of wingnuttia during the hate amendment campaign by the kansas taliban.
Like I said before. Karma, she’s a bitch, aint she?
Funny thing about the free market. It has a way, sometimes, about weeding out the hosers and posers. You think the weather is responsible for the lack of customers.
riiiiiiight.
Ah my mistake. So Paul has no problem with crooked churches.
Myboyz,
I can’t stress to you enough how completely political Terry Fox and his followers, which includes Tom and Cheryl Etheredge, are. It permeates absolutely everything they do.
The Etheredges used to be congregants at Immanuel Baptist Church. Terry Fox used to be the pastor. Terry Fox was run off for misdirecting tens of thousands – (maybe in the low six-figures; the amount has never been made public)- of ministry funds.
Within days of Fox being shown the door at Immanuel, he and Etheredge announced Fox would be continuing his ministry at Wild West World, 9 months before the park was even scheduled to open.
Now we see a “new” church “investing” $400,000 in a theme park. This is a theme park owned by a convicted swindler (see upthread), and a church run by a man whose last congregation had enough politics and enough funny business with their money.
Where did that $400,000 come from? Why did a new church – one without its own building – invest in a for-profit company, and a highly speculative investment at that?
Why did the owners of Wild West World keep taxes they withheld from their employees’ paychecks? Why is Terry Fox delinquent on property taxes going back to 2004 and 2005?
This is not a story of a good business plan gone bad. This whole story stinks. The con men behind this story stink.
Makes me think boyz isn’t really a newbie to the area, but rather one of the Faux supporters.
Tell me something Boyz, do you know who Fred Phelps is? Would you go to one of his sponsored theme parks if he had one?
Oh man, but now, Tom, they are being painted by their buddies as non-political, plucky entrepreneurs risking their own money to bring a dream to fruition. And the weather failed them. Nothing is their fault.
Oh yeah, and they are lowly members of the poor, persecuted majority being hated for their faith…
big eye roll
Let the spin begin!
Is it a record to have this many responses so quickly to yet another Fox thread?
I tell you what, the financial people dont accept a business plan from farmers that doesnt factor in the weather.
If you ever been to the park, you know it’s a huge disappointment, not also including the Terry Fox factor when many people said they would never to the the park for that reason alone.
Speaking of spin, I cant wait to hear how values boy spins this. He’s got a great week to pick topics. He can defend bush’s pardon of libby or he can spin the WWW story.
Cant wait.
I think most people know who Fred Phelps is. I attended a counter protest to one of his funeral protests with my boyz two summers ago. I couldn’t I don’t know who Terry Fox is. I have googled him tonight. My personal opinion of Phelps is he’s a disgrace to what he claims to be his faith.Fox I’m not so sure on. He certainly needs to spend as much time preaching on other “sins” as he does on homosexuality. Loving God and loving your neighbor and trying to live in the Light would help as well. But it’s not my business.I still think however some of you are making this wild west world out to be Jim Baker’s Heritage USA or something and I don’t see it.
As far as the business plan goes I think it says a lot that most of the financing came from Europe from what I understand.
So if you wouldn’t attend a park hosted by phelps, dont criticize us for not wanting to attend a park laden with Fox supporters. We’ve listened to his crap for about as long as we’ve had to put up with Phelps. Fox is more insidious though, he just wraps his hatred in a more palatable dish.
Maybe they should turn it into Jesus World. Have flood rides and a spinning cross ride and people walking around in Moses and Abraham costumes.
I wonder if Park City’s claim will be senior to others. Perhaps on he land itself?
Thanks all for the enlightening discussion. This will be rather interesting to watch unfold.
Now there’s an idea Joe. I bet that some would FLOCK to it.
As far as the business plan goes I think it says a lot that most of the financing came from Europe from what I understand.Posted by: myboyzdad | July 09, 2007 at 09:09 PM
I know of more than several very cynical and greedy Europeans who would take ENORMOUS delight in participating in any financial adventure that might involve the fleecing of American evangelicals (Summit Church congregation members). Hell, just hearing of this would delight untold hordes of English and French. These kinds of adventures make great blood sport at dinner parties with Americans, you know.
There are some very sick and greedy people in this world, and not all of ‘em are Americans.
That and wow. Heckuva story. I had no idea of Etheridge’s past. None.
Fox is a different story. Just knowing that Fox keeps his summit flock there, whenever I drive on I-135 past WWW I always have to fight the urge to hang garlic and look for something that’d make a good stake.
Pmom
Of course I have a problem with a truly “crooked church” —
However, the point I was trying to make is that, when I was a 20 something kid broker trying to sell sound investments, I saw people suckered into risky junk-rated church bonds and other investments.
It was hard to argue with people who thought they could get a solid, say 8% (I forget) with me, or a 9% rate by “giving their money to God” — I felt moved and touched by their faith — then I felt guilty when they lost all of their money.
Today, I tell people to find the best invesments they can. I tell people to invest in REAL investments and give the profit to charity, if they feel the calling to do so.
Again, I think the bond companies who financed the developers were to blame, more than the “churches” who often sold many of the bonds to their own members.
This whole thing makes me sick. Honest businesses fail all the time, and I dont want to be judgemental at all here until the facts are in.
It does look odd to me, though.
Etheredge promoted WWW as a Worlds-of-Fun level theme park, but what he delivered was a treeless, coaster-less Joyland-like steel park with defective rides, overpriced concessions, bad entertainment, and the stink of Rev. Fox’s involvement. I could almost ignore Fox pulling the puppet’s strings from the shadows, but NO COASTERS in a park charging coaster-park prices, and charging for parking in addition?Our family visited The North Pole outside of Colorado Springs this summer, and for $12/person, we enjoyed a family-themed park with affordable concessions and souveniers, great scenery, and no western music. THAT’S a place Etheredge could have picked up some pointers.
Dee in PC says that the Park City money WAS secured.Park City paid for the parking lot, they said on Channel 10.So, is her collateral all that asphalt?
I still say that someone needs to pull up the plat, the Key numbers and PIN numbers for all the WWW property.
Rev Fox said, also on 10, that his $400K was for a land purchase. I dont understand. HE is the one using the land, shouldnt the money have gone in another direction? Or did Rev Fox own the land and sell it to WWW on contract?
This was a irb, for the hotel.
Thomas Jones made a motion to approve a resolution determining the advisability of issuing the City’s taxable Industrial Revenue Bonds to pay the costs of acquiring, constructing and equipping a hotel to be located in the Wild West Addition of the City in the amount of $6,500,000. Second by Gary Davis. After brief clarification from Theron Froggate, the motion carried 8-0-0. The Clerk assigned Resolution Number 704-2007.http://ks-parkcity.civicplus.com/Archive.asp?ADID=562
Somebody could just buy up the land, disassembled all the rides and sell them and start sticking residential houses on it and just make it a subdivision.
Joyland actually has one of the best wooden roller coasters in the Midwest.
Wish Etheridge had just bought Joyland and cleaned the place up.
Carnival rides at theme park prices wont work.
Still, with better weather, he might have pulled it off.
Who knows?
Folks, their are REAL families out there who depended on jobs from WWW. There are real business people and investors who are hurt.
This is not something to celebrate.
For heavens sake, the Moslem faith pretty much doesnt support gay rights.
I am sure if the Mosque burned down you lefties wouldnt throw such a party!
I feel bad for those who are hurt by this. Even if I dont agree with them 100% all of the time.
there arenot their areI caught it.Put your red pens away!
You’re right Econ! WWW just shed 525 jobs along with Optima Bus around 200 employees, Park City just lost over 700 jobs to our area.
With the Kansas Coliseum to close once the downtown arena is open, it’s going to be pretty empty out there.
I wonder if Mr. Hartman might have second thoughts about building his arena there after all of this.
Does this mean the Chinese Dance Troupe has to go back to China???
I just was checking out the media news site and the Ethridges are claiming $3.8 million under the Bankruptcy protection that they said is owed to them. How sad!
“I am sure if the Mosque burned down you lefties wouldnt throw such a party!”
And what the fucccck does Islam have to do with this, Paul, or are you just talking out your fleetwood again?
The Salute to Freedom committee of Park City did not want to have a joint 4th celebration way back in February.
“David Oldham related the contents of two emails that he had received… …The second email was in response to an inquiry from Thomas Etheredge regarding Park City’s participation in the July 4th celebration at Wild West World this year. The email stated that the Salute to Freedom committee had decided that a joint celebration would not be in line with their objectives this season, and that Park City would have their own celebration. The email was signed by Dave Wiley, Salute to Freedom coordinator.Councilman Oldham expressed disappointment at finding out about this decision through a third party email. Mayor Stuart replied that the Salute to Freedom committee had voted (unanimously) at their organizational meeting to follow this course of action.”http://ks-parkcity.civicplus.com/Archive.asp?ADID=537
The jobs argument always bugs me–what kind of jobs are we talking about? They said the same thing about Gander Mountain–”all the jobs it will bring”–but the huge majority of those jobs are crappy service industry ones that are a dime a dozen. How about working on developing an economy that can offer more than retail and park security?
Stalker, it is so easy to become narcissistic when listening to you.
COUNCIL MEETINGTuesday, November 28, 2006″Bond Attorney Phil Lacey reviewed a proposed ordinance authorizing the City to issue Taxable Industrial Revenue Bonds, Series 2006 B for Wild West World, LLC. He noted that Mr. Etheridge would again be purchasing the bonds.Mr. Etheridge came forward and presented a check to the City Clerk as an early payment of the first Lease Payment due next year.Joshua Jones made a motion to approve the Ordinance authorizing the City to issue its Taxable Industrial Revenue Bonds, Series 2006B (Wild West World, L.L.C.) in an aggregate principal amount not exceeding $7,000,000 for the purpose of paying the costs of acquiring, constructing and furnishing certain building improvements for a western-themed amusement park facility; authorizing execution of Supplemental Trust Indenture No. 1 Between the City and Security Bank of Kansas City, Kansas, as Trustee; Authorizing the City to lease such further improvements to Wild West World, L.L.C. and authorizing execution of a second amended and restated lease between the City and Wild West World, L.L.C., and authorizing the execution of a Bond Purchase Agreement for the bonds between the City and Wild West World, L.L.C., as purchaser of the bonds. Second by Christopher Youngers. Motion carried 8-0-0 on a roll call vote and the Clerk assigned Ordinance Number 763-2006.”http://ks-parkcity.civicplus.com/Archive.asp?ADID=526
Okay, I posted earlier and made a misquote that I will clarify. This was a chapter 11 filing and not a 13 as I had written down. I am involved in a chapter 13 case right now and slipped because I had that on my mind when I posted. With that said, and having dealt with over 18 bankruptcy cases in the past three years as an expert witness, let me cover few things. First of all, 85% of all Chapter 11 bankruptcies convert to a Chapter 7 (Credit Research Foundation and National Association of Credit Management NACM). Secondly, this will be a DIP or (Debtor in Possession) meaning that Ethridge and his counsel will act as the trustee, under so-called supervision of the unsecured creditors. Third, the top 20 unsecured creditors will serve as the creditors committee. The problem with that is that the Summit is one of the top 20 and that could create a conflict of interest. Fourth, were I an unsecured creditor, I would ask for a forensic accounting team to go in and audit the books. Something stinks here and the numbers do not add up. I have been doing this for years and never have I seen a company 2-months into its operation, file bankruptcy.
Before I speculate on what I think will happen and could be happening, let’s clear the air here. Though I have a tremendous disdain for Terry Fox for many and varying reasons, I shall refrain from the potshots at him and the comparisons because it has nothing do to with the filing. Terry through his own stupidity as well as others at the church, are as burned as all other unsecured creditors. Therefore, he had nothing to do with this and for that matter, neither did the weather. Any person who is planning a business that is primarily out doors, and they are in Kansas, is going to factor in the weather and “down days” and build a reserve for lost income and uncovered expenses (uncovered meaning income is not there to at least cover the expenses). In addition, why didn’t WWW have “business interruption insurance”. But hey, that’s another story.
There are too many questions that are unanswered that hopefully will come out. Personally, based upon what I read today, I think there will be an asset sale that will be discounted by the secured creditors. This means that none of the unsecureds will see a dime of the debt owed to them. As I read the filings today (not all unsecured debt is listed) the amount owed to Summit and some of its members is over 1 million. Take that and the 3.8 million from TE and then add in the 10 million from the overseas bank, 6.8 million from First Southern in Goddard, now add in all the other banks to the tune of 4 million and that is $25 million in CASH. Then add in the unpaid debt and the debt on the rides, the mortgages, and the math does not come out. One has to ask, where did the money go? Again, were I an unsecured creditor, I would be pushing for some answers. If he finds a buyer, the buyer(s) will ask all the secured creditors to discount their debt by as much as 25% using the cost of litigation, and the undervalue of assets to pay off all the debt; someone or some company will buy the whole thing for around 12 million. An asset purchase is just that, the buyer is buying the assets from the bankruptcy and the unsecured debt is left. To the person who said that the taxpayers along with unsecured credits and vendors will be left to pay for this…. how will the taxpayers pay for this? Unsecured vendors and season pass holders, yes, tax payers, no.
As for the guaranty’s signed by Tom and his other corporation, I am sure he will work to require the secured creditors to accept the 12 million (or a little more) that will be offered by the buyer with the stipulation that his guaranties are wiped out. That would wipe out his obligations and leave his loss at the 3.8 million. This thing does not look right, something is not right and unless it is pursued by the unsecured creditors, know one will ever know the truth. And by the way, can we keep this at the issue and leave Todd Tiahrt, Bush and pardons out of it? That has nothing to do with this. Keep an eye on all this, something could shake loose in short time.
Okay, I posted earlier and made a misquote that I will clarify. This was a chapter 11 filing and not a 13 as I had written down. I am involved in a chapter 13 case right now and slipped because I had that on my mind when I posted. With that said, and having dealt with over 18 bankruptcy cases in the past three years as an expert witness, let me cover few things. First of all, 85% of all Chapter 11 bankruptcies convert to a Chapter 7 (Credit Research Foundation and National Association of Credit Management NACM). Secondly, this will be a DIP or (Debtor in Possession) meaning that Ethridge and his counsel will act as the trustee, under so-called supervision of the unsecured creditors. Third, the top 20 unsecured creditors will serve as the creditors committee. The problem with that is that the Summit is one of the top 20 and that could create a conflict of interest. Fourth, were I an unsecured creditor, I would ask for a forensic accounting team to go in and audit the books. Something stinks here and the numbers do not add up. I have been doing this for years and never have I seen a company 2-months into its operation, file bankruptcy.
Before I speculate on what I think will happen and could be happening, let’s clear the air here. Though I have a tremendous disdain for Terry Fox for many and varying reasons, I shall refrain from the potshots at him and the comparisons because it has nothing do to with the filing. Terry through his own stupidity as well as others at the church, are as burned as all other unsecured creditors. Therefore, he had nothing to do with this and for that matter, neither did the weather. Any person who is planning a business that is primarily out doors, and they are in Kansas, is going to factor in the weather and “down days” and build a reserve for lost income and uncovered expenses (uncovered meaning income is not there to at least cover the expenses). In addition, why didn’t WWW have “business interruption insurance”. But hey, that’s another story.
There are too many questions that are unanswered that hopefully will come out. Personally, based upon what I read today, I think there will be an asset sale that will be discounted by the secured creditors. This means that none of the unsecureds will see a dime of the debt owed to them. As I read the filings today (not all unsecured debt is listed) the amount owed to Summit and some of its members is over 1 million. Take that and the 3.8 million from TE and then add in the 10 million from the overseas bank, 6.8 million from First Southern in Goddard, now add in all the other banks to the tune of 4 million and that is $25 million in CASH. Then add in the unpaid debt and the debt on the rides, the mortgages, and the math does not come out. One has to ask, where did the money go? Again, were I an unsecured creditor, I would be pushing for some answers. If he finds a buyer, the buyer(s) will ask all the secured creditors to discount their debt by as much as 25% using the cost of litigation, and the undervalue of assets to pay off all the debt; someone or some company will buy the whole thing for around 12 million. An asset purchase is just that, the buyer is buying the assets from the bankruptcy and the unsecured debt is left. To the person who said that the taxpayers along with unsecured credits and vendors will be left to pay for this…. how will the taxpayers pay for this? Unsecured vendors and season pass holders, yes, tax payers, no.
As for the guaranty’s signed by Tom and his other corporation, I am sure he will work to require the secured creditors to accept the 12 million (or a little more) that will be offered by the buyer with the stipulation that his guaranties are wiped out. That would wipe out his obligations and leave his loss at the 3.8 million. This thing does not look right, something is not right and unless it is pursued by the unsecured creditors, know one will ever know the truth. And by the way, can we keep this at the issue and leave Todd Tiahrt, Bush and pardons out of it? That has nothing to do with this. Keep an eye on all this, something could shake loose in short time.
Doctor Credit
Thank you.Thanks to all for the facts contributed.I am betting the local reporters are reading this Blog to figure out what the heck is going on.
One point, Doctor Credit, the GO Bond that Park City issued in order to finance a loan to WWW, I think Farmgirl is right on that one. Except that if the asset sales cover the secured creditors, Park City will be in that group of secured creditors.
Is that what you mean?
And WS
My Mosque comment was not meant as an insult to you or Moslems or anyone else.Its just that some, on this thread, seem to cheer the fall of WWW, due to the “anti-gay” preaching of some of those involved with WWW.
The gay issue is not very big with me. Phelps makes my blood boil. So do the radical gay rights folks who deface and defile churches in their protests.
I think I am pretty much a “live and let live” kind of guy. That said, a lot of lives are hurt by this. That bothers me, regardless of the political or relegious persuasions of those involved.
Muslims are not in a position to discriminate against gays, Econ.
They’re too busy defending themselves against discrimination by the same right-wing fundies that attack gays.
The anti-marriage hate amendment, for instance, didn’t originate with Muslims.
Those of you that think this failure had anything to do with Terry Fox – wrong. His congregation was but a very small part of this operation. And, there was no symbol or indication of his church’s pilgrimage at WWW.
We visited WWW 3-4 times over the past couple of months, and I can say with no question that the failure of the park was directly related to the business plan of the park – small time rides, expensive food, long lines, no sense of urgency by the workers, no idea how to quickly unload one set of riders and load the next batch, etc etc etc. Tom E was a very poor operator.
We purchased season tickets, and we kept going back with hopes that it would get better. It didn’t. In fact, it got worse.
Those that think this was some kind of “Bible Park” are just dead wrong. There was no religious overtone to anything in the park – other than occasional “western” references to Church.
The fly in the ointment was uncovered by Mr Etheridge himself a couple of weeks ago in the Eagle. He acknowledged that he oversaw most everything himself. He was very insecure about delegation, and continually upset his senior staff by ignoring their direction and opinion and insisting that things be done his way.
That, my friends, is the kiss of death.
It’s rather interesting that both the bankruptcy of Wild West World and the roaring success of Riverfest were attributed to Kansas weather. Especially interesting is the sale of tens of thousands of season passes at WWW that will no longer be honored. I’m beginning to wonder if WWW was conceived as a scam from the beginning, and the operators have considerable cash from the customers and investors squirrelled away somewhere. This park couldn’t have failed so spectacularly so soon unless it was either totally misconceived and mismanaged or was designed to fail. Either way, they had to convince a number of fairly intelligent investors that the operation was sound. Obviously now, that at least was a scam.
KSGolfnut – you just don’t get it. whether there was anything overt about the involvement of Terry Fox or not, the fact that he was associated in ANY way – even if it was totally behind the scenes – puts a stink on it all.
Doctor Credit, I think you just busted your own credibility balloon with this statement:
“To the person who said that the taxpayers along with unsecured credits and vendors will be left to pay for this…. how will the taxpayers pay for this? Unsecured vendors and season pass holders, yes, tax payers, no.”
What the hell part of Park City GENERAL OBLIGATION BONDS do you not understand? The city guarenteed those bonds. If there is a default, the city, through its general taxing powers, is on the hook. And that means the taxpayers are on the hook.
If Park City issued IRBs in addition to the GO bonds, as eliza’s post indicated, that is another interesting issue.
I’ve seen tangled deals like this before. Someone is either incredibly smart or the folks they suckered were incredibly dumb. Mostly, I think they were incredibly desperate for cash, and did ANYTHING they could to lay their hands on more cash.
And once a city or local government is in for a penny, they’re in for a pound. As the deal went south, my guess is they went along with all the harebrained schemes for financing.
What else could they do? Shut down before they opened? I wonder who negotiated all this for Park City. I wonder if they had a director of economic development or an e.d. finance person look this over. I wonder if the state of kansas had anything to do with this financial fiasco.
I’m guessing, but willing to bet, that there is waaaaay more “public sector” money and guarentees in this web of deceit than we know right now. I also bet if the media DOESNT do their job, we’ll never know about it.
WTF that summit is listed as a creditor when they were BUYING land from WWW? Whoever was their accountant, I want in on THAT action!
And for the apologists who think the association between WWW and the little ayatolla fox had NOTHING to do with this failure? I want what you are smoking. Look at the tangled financial relationships between them that we KNOW about. Cant wait to find out what we dont know.
And if the demise of the park really was because of a lack of customers, what was the cause of the lack of customers? The weather? For god’s sake, this is KANSAS. The weather is always a problem. NO FARMER would ever get away with a biz plan that didnt factor in the weather.
I think forensic accounting would be the first step. Other steps could lead to criminal charges, depending on what is found. And THAT is why I brought up the issues of pardons.
Dont think for one minute that the oh so holy toddly one didnt have a hand in this somewhere, even if it was through the SBA.
I dont think the full amount of Park City’s exposure is known. It’s gonna take some time to unravel the financial web here and see just who did what and what belongs to whom. But it’s moot, ’cause whatever assets exist will be sold for cents on the dollar. And taxpayers and private investors alike will be on the hook.
Popping the corn right now.
…and now you know why I have said before that economic development, as practiced in Kansas, is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on the taxpayer.
It’s just a way for some folks to access the public piggy bank.
And the sheeple, following one dazzling proposal after another, follow.
…and in public sector, it would be a good thing for folks to remember two quotes. One is from Meatloaf, who said “there aint no Coup DeVille hiding in the bottom of a cracker jack box”.
The other is from Mary Chapin Carpenter who said “The stars might lie but the numbers never do”.
Anyone who was cautious on this deal was likely tagged as “anti-progress” and “anti-development”.
After all, the whole deal was in god’s hands. Maybe after this, they wont have so much money for their political operations and ventures. Right. Dream on…
KFG- More material for another GLIB stanza perhaps?
G
hee hee hee Gster! Rounding up the staff paper right now!
Good to see you again.
KFG- Ditto – did the creek rise in Colyer (sp?)?
Some general thoughts before I get back to work.
Tom, good point on the separate payroll account. That’s what I advise my clients who are beginning a new business, advice that is, from time to time, not followed, and usually to the detriment of the client.
Clearly, there was a $1 million GO bond issue authorized by Park City as a part of the total financing, the responsibility for repayment of the same lies squarely upon the city of Park City. No wonder the Mayor was so hopeful last night in her interview on channel 12 that a buyer could be found quickly.
I found it interesting that with reference to the IRB for a hotel that the same was described in the ordinance as a “taxable” IRB. I further found it interesting that Mr. Etheredge was the purchaser of the same, or at least a part.
As kfg and others have posted, this is a very tangled mess, which will take time to unravel. The suggestion of a forensic accountant’s employment is well put, and should be insisted upon by the creditors’ committee.
Reference the Summit Church financial involvement; it is very curious, to say the least. At the least, the income earned from the investment, had it been paid, would to my mind seem to be unrelated trade or business income, subject to income taxation at regular rates, the tax-exempt status of the Summit Church notwithstanding. I say this mindful of the general treatment of interest from, say, a savings account of a tax-exempt organization, that is, so long as that income is applied to the general purposes of the organization, the investment of funds in an interest bearing account will not be subject to income tax. Compare that with the practice of at least one downtown church in renting its parking lot spaces for use during the week for folks working downtown. The revenue from said lot is such unrelated trade or business income. Further, by leasing the lot, the property tax exemption therefor was lost, due to the “exclusive use” doctrine that is a part of Kansas law. It is hard for me to imagine that income from a $400,000 investment in a for-profit enterprise would be not treated similarly.
A final thought on Summit; perhaps they were involved in a sale and lease-back transaction with WWW? In other words, WWW sells the real property to Summit on contract, and then leases it back from Summit for its use. The obligation owed Summit is for the total lease payments. There should be, if this is the case, a disclosure in the asset schedules which are yet to be filed in the Chapter 11 of the real estate purchase contract.
Wichitans should be beathing a sigh of relief that Wild West World wasn’t on our doorstep! Hats off to our City Council for having the forsight not to buy in to this sham! Anytime you deal with an ex con you have to keep both eyes open and both hands on to your pocketbook! I’m all for giving a person another chance! But it will be my way or the highway! Mr. Etheridge had full control of everything. And that led to the downfall of WWW! He thought he knew everything and wouldn’t listen to his senior staff! Tinhorn business run by a Tinhorn is a mix for disaster!!!
VT – I think that Summit was buyimh an adjacent parcel to build a church on and the 400K was some sort of ‘earnest money’
A comment from one of the other articles:”They have known for some time that they would file bankruptcy. The filing document was 108 pages long. You have to spend a lot of time listing each and every creditor and determining what is owed. This doesn’t happen overnight. This is a clear case of fraud and the District Attorney needs to investigate. When the dust settles, Etheredge will walk away with millions and the rest of us will be stuck holding the bag. Once a felon, always a felon!”
What do you all think of this? Is something going on here?
The industry financing consultant the Eagle quoted, Dennis Spiegel (?), said he had never seen this sort of thing happen in this short of a time.
Ben, thanks for the information on the land.
Yes, delsol, generation of the document filed with the Court took a while. I suggest that with the new case preparation software it wouldn’t take as long as it used to take. With that said, it did take a bit more than an hour or so Monday morning. If selling season passes was occurring on Sunday, then there is an issue to be taken up with the Consumer Fraud division of the Sedgwick County DA’s office. It likely won’t go anywhere, IMHO, given that the activity occurred pre-petition, and the automatic stay issued as a result of the Chapter 11 filing, which would require action in the Bankruptcy Court to lift the stay to allow prosecution of the possible state law violation.
This is going to be a very interesting unraveling. Oh what a tangled web we weave …
I think what many people aren’t getting about this is that Wichita doesn’t draw in tourists. And without tourism, none of our crappy attractions are going to outlast their “newness”. Wichitans can only go to see this lame cowboy stuff so many times before they get tired of it and long for the up-to-date attractions offered elsewhere. If any attractions want to survive here, it’s going to take an updated airport with cheaper flights and more interesting attractions than cowboys.
Being the Air Capital of the World, our airport is shameful. And the expensive flights are just as bad. No one who is planning a vacation says to themselves, “Wichita sounds like fun.” We need to leap forward into the 21st century and realize that kids don’t play cowboys and indians anymore. If we’re ever going to be a successful, thriving community, it’s going to take a lot more than one bad amusement park to perk us up.
I am still worried about the innocent people hurt by all of this.However, since we are talking about bonds and financing, in general, I once had an interesting conversation with a local muni-bond investment banker.According to him, several years ago, much, or even most of the IRB’s issued in Boeing’s behalf were OWNED by: BOEING!Boeing, at the time, simply wanted the property tax abatement that IRB financing provided.Also, they were free to “sell” their bonds, on the open market, at anytime, if the need arrose to raise cash.Don’t think anyone will by Ethridge’s bonds, do you?My point is, of course, that even an “honest” deal, like Boeing IRB’s, can look complicated.
UBTI, or unrelated business taxable income: Isnt there a real-estate exemption to UBTI tax?
All I know is that, in an IRA, REITs and Limited Partnerships in realestate did not generate UBTI, but equipment leasing partnerships did.
Of course, there has always been a UBTI exemption for stocks and bonds and savings accounts, at least in an IRA.
In the example of equipment leasing partnerships held in an IRA, you once had to file a tax return on income over a floor amount of $2,000 or so, each year, even if no funds were withdrawn.
I was told the IRA UBTI rules were basically the as those for any “tax exempt” entity.
“I think what many people aren’t getting about this is that Wichita doesn’t draw in tourists.”
That’s why this crap about the casino being a destination casino is stupid. It will be a regional casino just like Illinois and PA.
The city of Erie PA is going nuts with casino plans too.At least there, you have Lake Erie, which is another tourist draw.
Econ, I freely admit that the rules on UTBTI may have changed since last I dealt with it on a Form 990 many years ago. At the time, there was a limited five year exemption for income from real estate acquired by a 501(c)(3) organization that had been purchased with a view to expansion, but unless the excess property had been converted to the exempt purpose within that period, said income was then taxed accordingly. IIRC, in the event of sale of said real estate, gain on the same was taxable if the sale occurred outside the five year period.
“I think what many people aren’t getting about this is that Wichita doesn’t draw in tourists.”
With all due respect andie, we do NOT know that. What we know is that this particular attraction couldnt draw the kind of crowds it needed to pay its bills.
That means either the “bills” were too high for any reasonable expectation of revenues, or
That means this particular attraction had trouble drawing the projected visitors. It says nothing concreat about why it didnt draw the projected visitors, or the projected visitors were drawn, but they werent enough to cover the bills.
We all, obviously have an opinion about WHY the attraction went belly up two months after opening. But the facts remain to be seen.
VT, I know I dont need to tell you this but you are correct about the 501(c)3 real estate. If it is leased or rented for commercial purposes unrelated to the “mission”, it’s fully taxable.
Paul, I’m serious here and not trying to gig you.
“I am still worried about the innocent people hurt by all of this.”
I get that you probably do have compassion for these folks. Anyone who’s ever been laid off, and that’s most of us over 30, have compassion.
But, with all due respect, that’s the cold hard hand of the free market. That’s the basis of capitalism. Unemotional.
I feel sorry for them too. But we either have a free market, or we dont. This venture skated close to the edge of leaving the “free market” with all the public and public/private financing deals.
They even got a head start on capitalism and still couldnt pull it off. With all the attendant human consequenses.
farmgirl
“fully taxable” meaning fully INCOME taxable, or property taxable?
both
Sorry, hit the button too soon. I meant to say both, unless the “profit” is spent directly on the “mission”. Sorry, I cant remember the technical terms. That’s VT’s dept. :)
farmgirl
Point taken.
Honestly, I am just trying to learn something from all of this.
Perhaps I will be able to help someone avoid such a mess, in the future.
Perhaps someone who reads this Blog will have such an opportunity to avoid such a mess or discourage such a mess.
There is risk in any business. That is why our tax laws recogize the need to encourage risk taking.
I have trouble with the government “removing” risk from the equation. That seems to invite trouble.
Is that what happened here, in part?
—-Also, on UBTI, Churches routinely rent out halls for wedding dances, reunions, anniversary parties, etc.Is that “social function” of the Church exempt?I think profitable use of Church property might be allowed in some cases.WWW? Not sure they meet any exceptions I know about.
It’s damn sad, for a lot of reasons, when any e.d. project goes bad. Makes it that much harder the next time for the next entrepreneur.
And the funny thing about e.d. people? We’re the highest paid migrant workers in the world. The e.d. folks behind this deal will be long gone to their next job before the piper has to be paid.
“I have trouble with the government “removing” risk from the equation. That seems to invite trouble.
Is that what happened here, in part?”
Yes, in part. And then the poor risk/reward decisions are magnified the more leverage they apply. You know the drill.
Pretty soon EVERYONE is in so deep, since the risk was spread so thin and wide, that NO one can afford to say, “stop this freakin’ train before it wrecks”.
With all the attendant consequenses.
I think risk mitigation is an appropriate role for public financing. Public financing is also good for “bridge” or mezzanine finaning, but it is no substitute for prudent spending and maximizing income. Or long term financing.
Which is what happens when you get the “bridge” financing on a wing and a prayer. You hope to hell the revenues materialize, even though you cant project it, because, well, failure is not an option.
I think that’s called “magical thinking”.
… and the tap dancing at the end?
Typical. Once burned, you can recognize the smell a comin’!
“Use determines classification” is an old Kansas Court ruling, I believe.
I once helped a Frat house get off the tax rolls as “commercial property.” They got a huge tax refund, for prior years, as they never “converted” from commercial, restaurant use, to dorm/residential use. It didnt matter when the papers where filed, it mattered when the USE changed. (The legislature put a limit on the “look back” years, shortly thereafter.)
So, yes, under Kansas RE classification laws, or BOTA rules, I am sure you have a point.
IRS rules? I am not sure. Church raffle tickets. Bake Sales. Bingo. Car washes. Where do you draw the line?
I would think a church that charged admission for secular movies, to the general public, on “off” days, would have a problem — I am thinking there is some sort of a percentage basis, in time or money raised. Some kind of test to use, under IRS rules.
Paul,
The rental cannot be for more than the costs of clean-up, utilities used, etc. In other words, no profit is to be made therefrom, or else at least the property tax exemption for such property is in potential jeopardy. Assuming the “rental” isn’t viewed as a business regularly carried on to make a “profit”, there would most likely not be a problem with income taxation. I suspect that in the case of a church hall for a wedding reception, the sacramental nature of marriage in a church would be viewed as an adjunct to the overall religious mission of a church (including the reception), and any income generated would not be viewed as unrelated. Just my “curbstone opinion”, not to be relied upon as specific advice, of course.
Paul, I’m familiar with the Kansas Supreme Court opinion to which you allude. Use is everything, more precisely “exclusive use” is everything in property tax exemption matters. That’s how the statute is written, in general, and that’s how the Kansas Supreme Court construed it.
The exemption statute(s) were amended thereafter, allowing for a payment in lieu of costs (as stated above) under certain circumstances which, under the strict reading given the then existing statutory provision by our state Supreme Court would, in and of itself, have caused a revocation of the property tax exemption.
Thanks VT
“”I have trouble with the government “removing” risk from the equation. That seems to invite trouble.”
And Paul, I’m not saying that this is what happened here, because I dont know, but I can give you my opinion about what also contributes to projects becoming runaway train wrecks.
We heap praise on e.d. folks for bringing a deal to town. Their jobs depend on it. You are only as good as your last deal, and whenever there is an election, the inevitable question is, “what have you done for me lately?”
It’s very similar to coaching. The bigger the town, the closer to the pros. You produce EVERY year, or yer gone. Traded to another team, or fired and hired by another team. Hopefully a bigger team so you move up to the pros from the minors.
But instead of a coaching “record”, e.d. folks have a folder of newpaper clippings and letters from happy campers that he/she did deals for and with. Lots of upside to landing big deals, regardless of the risks. And we set it up that way.
We also heap praise and votes on elected officials who “bring” deals to town. Just how many folks on all sides of the aisle and all levels of office have you seen tout the number of “jobs” they brought to town? The deal they landed to “save” x number of jobs.
You betcha. THAT’s the shit that gets folks elected and re-elected. Lots of upside to landing deals, regardless of the risk. Very little downside for getting on the train. And LOTS of downside if they are perceived of impeding the deal.
So all the elected officials, from very local to state to congress critters, get involved as the deal goes. “Hell” they think “this two bit deal just might work so I better get on board.”
And we, as voters and taxpayers, have mostly never held those folks accountable if the deal goes south. The elected officials will move up or out and the e.d. folks will move up or out long before the final reckoning and accounting are tallied.
And the taxpayers who remain or arrive in the wake of this? On the hook.
A CLASSIC tragedy of the commons. And we have no one to blame but ourselves.
Now you know why I say economic development, as practiced in kansas, is the BIGGEST hoax ever perpetrated on the taxpayer.
Did anyone ever think about how much it costs to take a family to WWW? With the gas prices and everything else going sky high, how many average families really have this kind of disposable income?Also, I never had ANY desire to take my grandkids there because Terry Fox was somehow connected to the whole fiasco..am I the only one that was totally turned off by that? The only thing worse would be crazy ‘ole Fred preaching there.It had to be more than the weather that kept people away, because it wasn’t THAT bad.I think bad management had a lot to do with it.
“With the gas prices and everything else going sky high,…”
When gas was $2.50/gallon and your car got 20 mpg, you could drive 60 miles.At $3/gallon, you can drive 50 miles.Big Deal.That’s not stopping anybody. It just sounds stupid.
I want to thank Vaughn, KSFG, and Paul/Econ 101 for a tremendously interesting discussion. I learned a lot about this situation and private/public economic development in general–much more than I would have gotten about either from the Eagle.
delsolI thank everyone as well.
Honestly, each of us seems to have a bit of knowledge in areas the others don’t work with or specialize in, as much.
I think, this time, we all got past our egos and party labels and tried to figure this one out.
It is a “train wreck” — horrible — but you just can’t help looking at it and talking about it.
If I ever start an new business venture, I think I will post my idea on WeBlog FIRST.
I know you folks won’t worry about hurting my feelings, and if it can pass muster with this crowd — it might even make it!
Hey Fleet, could YOU afford to spend the day there with your kids? Maybe you’re independantly wealthy? It’s not just the gas mileage one’s car gets or how far they have to drive…the price of everything is going up, from utilities to food. Most families don’t have a lot of money to spend on that sort of high priced entertainment.
Well, I heard they gave away tickets to church groups across the state. Maybe that’s why- their base were getting in free.
Or, the rest of the people were making up the difference…hmm.
…and I notice the WE, in editorial or news, didnt mention the terry fox drag on the business.
And it was during the fox threads that the WE started locking threads.
And they have NEVER mentioned that terry hasnt payed his property taxes in years.
And just when did they add values boy?
I think the local christian taliban must have something to hold over the WE. Maybe a good/bad lawyer?
Or is it just “editorial discretion”?
Thank goodness this blog exists or the truth would never get told down there…
ksfrmgrl, there was a slight mention in the Eagle, that Fox “bristled” at the idea of people staying away because of him..but that’s one big thing that kept me from going there…and I doubt that I was the only one.The idea of him preaching there just left a really bad taste in my mouth for the whole thing.
“but that’s one big thing that kept me from going there…”
I thought you said it was because you couldn’t afford it?I haven’t been to Hawaii because, um, because I don’t like Don Ho.
fap fap fap fleetie. Go bite ankles elsewhere.
Mary, I think it is interesting that the little ayatollah has a HISSY fit when someone mentions how his stink contributed to the demise of WWW.
Denial. It aint just a river in Egypt anymore. It appears to be in the water cooler at the WE as well.
“how his stink contributed to the demise of WWW.”
Was there a poll I missed indicating that people didn’t go because of Terry Fox?
Cant wait to get the definitive spin on this from values boy.
Will he apologize and defend these guys? Will he blame the libs? Will it somehow be the fault of democrats?
Oh wait. I bet it will be the poor persecuted majority meme.
I think that about exhausts the republican shill’s range. I noticed his column last week had NOTHING to do with faith and values and EVERYTHING to do with politics.
Just like the church leaders in wichita. They have puppeteered him well.
Faith and values indeed. Republican shill is more accurate.
fleetwood, you miss everything that doesnt agree with you
No ankles to bite anywhere else?
heheheh of course, the values boy could ignore the whole www fiasco. He may just stick with the “no underlying crime” meme and whine about poor ol’ scooter.
Or maybe he will defend vitter?
In any event, it will be a political shill, not a “faith and values” column.
Like usual.
“fleetwood, you miss everything that doesnt agree with you”
Would that mean that there was no poll? That you are just making stuff up? *Shocker*
fap fap fap
like a little ankle biting dog
“like a little ankle biting dog”
Ouch.
I can afford to go there, Fleet…just didn’t want to. My point was that many average families can’t afford it. Would you pay $25 per person? That’s a lot of money if you have more than one kid.I think the guy in charge of that whole mess comes across as arrogant and it sounds like he wouldn’t listen to anyone who disagreed with him about anything. Sounds familar, huh? “Pride goeth before a fall”.
I could easily afford to take my boys there; however my choice of places for them will be quite different. The Zoo is a standby; with our membership I can take the boys to see their cousins there any time I like. Exploration place. The Cosmosphere in Hutch. Maybe the water park in Derby.
The fact is, WWW simply didn’t really attract us a whole lot.
The WE article this morning about the bank loans confirms my suspicions about www using short term and mezzanine financing in place of long term financing.
“The loan was intended to be a short-term loan that would convert to a long-term Small Business Administration loan, she said.
The conversion to an SBA loan was supposed to take place once construction of Wild West World was complete and open, she said. That would have allowed Citizens Bank to recoup the money it loaned.
But that conversion was dependent on the filing of paperwork that didn’t get to the SBA, Deterding said.
“We put a lot of reliance on the SBA takeout,” Deterding said. “Literally this week it was our understanding they were getting the documentation ready to go to the SBA.”
I think this is also interesting. I’ve participated in deals with the Conway Bank. They specialize in this kind of “conversion” financing.
“Conway Bank participated in a $6.2 million loan that was led by First National Bank of Southern Kansas in Mount Hope.
Jerod Heiman, Conway’s chief financial officer, declined to say how much his bank contributed to the loan.
(snip)
Heiman said if the bank doesn’t get back the money it lent, that could affect its efforts to get out from under its formal agreement with the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, the federal bank regulator.
Conway entered into the agreement, an enforcement action, in January 2005. The agreement required Conway to make a number of changes to its operations, including lending procedures.”
More things that make ya go hmmm….
I’d sure like to know more about that “enforcement action”, wouldnt you?
WE editors?
“The Zoo is a standby; with our membership I can take the boys to see their cousins there any time I like.”
Ben, your son’s cousins are attractions at the zoo?
“oooh that smell. The smell of death’s around you”.
Stinks like hell. And you know what they say about how shit splatters. I think this little fiasco is going to unravel into something much bigger.
And as noted, a lot of unsuspecting (I cant call them innocent) folks will be hurt. The big boys will protect themselves.
Geez, I smell Pulitzer if the WE would get on this and not let terry taliban censor them.
I, too, am curious about the enforcement action involving the Conway bank. Was its participation in the WWW short-term financing scheme in accordance therewith or in violation thereof?
kfg, good catch on the SBA takeout comment. That also confirmed my thoughts on what was happening there.
VT, I’m speculating here, but I wonder if the CB wasnt violating the loan limit regs? They do TONS of these “participating” loans.
I shouldnt be speculating on that, but knowing what I know, I’m beginning to wonder. And I wonder also about their observance colateralization rules.
I know some big time construction folks who are investors there and do business there.
Popping the popcorn…
kfg, while neither of us should be speculating on this, your speculations are parallel to mine. Keep the popcorn popper hot, I think all of us will need several servings before this one plays out.
Worlds of Fun to Offer Discount to Wild West World Season Pass Holders:
http://www.kansas.com/business/updates/story/119495.html
Good marketing move, eh?
No kidding VT.
It sounds like WWW marketing plan was “pray for good weather”.
My experience in the venture capital world tells me that investors in highly risky projects like this usually look at the marketing plan first, the resumes of the company leaders second, and the financials third, if the first two pass muster.
No wonder this wasnt a vc deal. Too little return, no marketing plan or marketing money, and the personnel? heheheheh. I think the “resumes” speak for themselves.
A perfect storm.
sol – YEP!
;^)
“Good marketing move, eh?”
Only genius.
heheh VT!
“Keep the popcorn popper hot”
Hell, I’m not only doing that, but growing the organic popcorn as well!
HEH VT. Have we given the WE enough leads on this story to qualify for a byline?
hee hee hee hee!
Glad you took that well Ben, and as intended – as a joke.
Cheers.
As was my original comment about the cousins. If you saw the Three Amigos (2 fives and a three) you would know what I mean! ;^)
I have to take extra ID for them; I was once accused of stealing from the exhibits.
Mary Caruso hit the nail on the head… Pride goeth before the fall.
I’ve had minor dealings with Tom Etheridge and found him to be egotistical, arrogant, and a micro-manager. He doesn’t accept advice, and is disdainful of anyone who’s outlook is different from his own.
When middle and upper management started bailing a few weeks ago, I saw this coming. I take no joy in the demise of any attraction, but I must say it will be interesting to see how the cards fall when this is all said and done.
As for the Terry Fox impact, I have heard a significant number of people mention their suspicion of Fox/Etheridge partnerships and say they would vote as true consumers… with their dollars. While TE may think he did the godly thing by offering the JW Theater as rental space, it was the sale of land to the church (all legal, so far as we know now) and his connection to Fox that made a surprising number of folks uncomfortable supporting WWW.
I expect to see lots of interesting things come from the fallout of the ‘creative financing’ of this project. Who will wear the egg, and who will be tarred and feathered? Stay tuned…
LTB (Lions, Tigers, & Bears)
Long time no see LTB – how ya been?
Think there might be a decent local venue for the acrobats for the time being?
Etheride forgot that businesses can be political AFTER they have a customer base and are successful. Successful like they can pay their bills.
He shouldnt have cuddled up to the little ayatollah so publicly while he was still trying to attract a customer base.
I can think of few non elected or party officials who are more political than terry fox and his merry band of bigots.
And the only person more distained in kansas is fred.
And for the third amigo in the terry, joe and fred trinity…
Do you suppose ol’ joe knew just WHEN to retire?
Stay tuned at this same bat time, same bat channel for the next episode of “the joker”.
Uh, kfg, you might need to plant a bit more of that organic popcorn, as the update on the “front page” says the Kansas Security Commissioner’s office is opening an investigation.
Before anyone jumps to any conclusions here, this type of action (to me) comes as no surprise, given the facts as currently known about the number of people investing privately and the sudden demise of WWW. I had missed T. Fox’ $50,000 personal investment, apparently in the form of a loan, when I looked through the filing the other day, but had seen some other individual’s names on the schedules. And for those who might not know, yes, loans like this can be subject to the Kansas Security Act and its provisions concerning disclosure, etc.
Of course VT, EVERYONE is innocent until proven guilty, but isnt securities fraud what Etheridge went to prison for in the eighties?
Yes.
A bit on why I referred to the Fox investment as an apparent loan. The entity chosen for WWW was an LLC. LLCs have members, not shareholders as does a corporation. In the filing documents, the closely held corporation (the name of which escapes me at the present) of which Mr. Etheredge is the President is listed as the sole member of the LLC. Thus, the Fox “investment” prima facie appears to be a loan, and not an ownership position in the LLC.
And, in theory at least, it should probably be a non-recourse loan. In other words – a claim against only the LLC and not the underlying corporation.
Unless, of course, they pierce the veil …
Ben, all I can say at the present is that the loan, as I choose to call it, is listed as an unsecured claim against the LLC, with no indication of any guaranty thereof by the corporation or Mr. Etheredge personally.
Ya gotta wonder, with this many complicated back and forth transactions, where the pyramid or shell might be? :) Why all the money swapping?
I wonder how many insiders will suddenly claim “fraud!” and be shocked, SHOCKED I say at what is uncovered.
As Kathy Griffin would say “allegedly”.
Vaughn, do you know if the state of Kansas or the Kansas Dept. of Commerce were financially involved in this? Tourism money? Grant money? Regional planning commission money? I dont have the patience to wade through the docs. But I am curious.
Not all of these switchback relationships might have been known, but damn, any e.d. professional with any experience at all shoulda asked some questions.
kfg, from memory, the only State agency listed in the schedules was SCKED, two separate items.
oops, the only state agency other than the Kansas Department of Revenue, that is.
Wow. Just wow.
See my 11:50 post?
I just saw this on the WE homepage article:
“Fox said he was helping friends when he invested in the park.
“Did I know it was risky? Yes. If Thomas had said the park wasn’t doing well and may not make it, then I wouldn’t have put my money in. I’m a pastor. That’s a lot of money to me.”
Fox said Etheredge was “optimistic” about the park’s future in January.
“He told me that he thought it would be a good investment for me,” Fox said.”
Uh oh. I smell the rats turning on each other.
Thanks VT. I’ll try to grow a little patience and check it out. I bet there is more public or quasipublic money in this deal than anyone currently knows. I know the names of the loan funds and groups they operate under, so I’ll check it out.
I was thinking a bit ago. If someone wanted to fleece the sheep and make off with the proceeds, there sure were easier and better ways to do it.
Makes me think that was not the intent.
Either that or this story belongs on “jackass”.
Farmgrrl,
I think this is a huge story of pure ineptitude. I don’t think there were any criminal motives involved at all.
Too bad stupidity isn’t a crime, huh?
agreed on both counts Tom.
Well
Somewhere back in the archives is me saying I would NEVER take my kid to a fun park based on hee haw and run by a follower of Terry Fox. I ALSO predicted that I would not be alone in that decision.
I love when I’m right!
Hooray! Hey arena nuts? You’ve just seen the future for your downtown dinosaur.
Tom, the more I mull this over, the more I conclude you are correct, as is kfg. I keep returning to where I started, that is, undercapitalized, bad business plan, that likely had no real chances of success.
Vaughn,
And Terry Fox. It takes many nails to hold the lid on the coffin, and I think Fox counts for two or three.
Tom, that particular individual was included within my generic “bad business plan” category.
Okay–I just went to the WWW website.#1I really think it is LOW for Etheridge to blame those poor folks in Greensburg because their tornado just happened the day before his Grand Opening. Anyone knows that in Kansas, you have to assume the worst where the weather is concerned. He should have had enough operating capital for the “what ifs” It takes a good 3 years to get a business of this nature up and running profitably. That should have been part of his business plan. #2You can STILL order season passes. I checked that I wanted to order a pass, and continued to check out–it accepted my credit card information–all the way up to the end, but I did not send the information.#3I think it is TERRIBLE that WWW sold season passes the days prior to the bancruptcy filing, They KNEW they were going to close and they still took peoples money. Isn’t that blatent fraud?
Somewhere there must be an attorney who could file a class action for the season pass buyers.
heh heh heh Pick him clean!
JR,
Bankruptcy filing specifically _prevents_ anyone from doing just that. Pass buyers are at the end of a very long line.
One more thing….my brother had cowboy wallpaper on his room in the 60’s. Boys back then played cowboys and indians. Everyone liked the western theme.Wake UpIt is 2007Not 1960.
Uh…
Does that mean his Prairie Rose enterprise is gonna be on the block for fire sale too? It is an asset.
Exactly, Tom, which makes me wonder what the Eagle thinks it’s up to by trolling for folks who recently bought season passes. They are encouraged to contact a certain individual at the Eagle (information on the home page).
Short of bad publicity (I don’t know how much worse it could get), the Eagle, it would seem, has nothing to offer these folks. If the folks so desire, they could go into the Bankruptcy Court to get a “lift stay” order on the grounds of potential violation of the Kansas Consumer Protection Act and try to obtain a judgment in State court, I guess. Good luck to those who want to go this route.
It’s a separate corporation – Restoration Farms, Inc. However, if there was any kind of fraudulent conveyance, any attempt to use Prairie Rose / Restoration Farms to stash money, other assets, or defraud investors, he could lose that, too.
Vaughn,
The Eagle’s request is for people who _recently_ bought season passes. I think they’re looking into whether Etheredge made a prior decision to file bankruptcy, and took money from people knowing it would be lost as of Monday.
The Prairie Rose enterprise is not an asset of Wild West World, LLC, JR. The entities were kept separate, as nearly as I can ascertain.
From the public statements and a quick review of the filing, it seems there are mortgages against the real property upon which the Prairie Rose sits, but I cannot ascertain any other involvement from a security of lender side of that particular enterprise.
Remember, this is not Mr. Etheredge personally. This is the LLC created to construct and operate Wild West World.
He should lose Prairie Rose. But don;t worry. I’m sure the Etheridge family will come out smelling like a rose. They’ll get to keep the supper club and continue to make $ there. Do you think the folks burned by the WWW fiasco, will cause bad publicity that will affect PR? I mean, look at that list of creditors. Food vendors, media, contractors….this thing has affected a LOT of folks in Wichita. I can hardly imagine that these folks and their families and friends will be lining up to patronize the Prairie Rose, after this. What does anyone think on this?
Vaughn is correct. One of the major reasons that people choose a corporation over sole proprietorship is to avoid losing individual assets. WWW is filing banruptcy. TE is still a millionaire.
Understand, Tom. That’s what I was obliquely referring to in my comments about the lift stay, etc.
Agree with your analysis on Restoration Farms, Inc., but would suggest that based upon what little is public knowledge, that appears a long shot from a recovery potential, given the mortgage on the real estate, etc.
I would think that the Wichita Eagle which is an investor, may want to tread lightly on the matter. It could be interpreted as interfering with the Securities Commission investigation.
Farmgrrl,I’d like to chat with you offline about this.All,Just a question here: if Summit Church is paying rent to use the Johnny Western Theatre, and the church is ostensibly buying land from the park for their new church, how is it that Wild West World OWES Summit Church $401,895 (and how does it get that specific)?
Ah I see. Difference between a personal bankruptcy and a company. Kinda not fair giving they’ve made bankruptcy protection so much harder to claim for folks with medical or other emergencies. There should be an investigation of some sort. The guy is a former criminal after all.
Vaughn,
I have a question: If a business knows it’s going to be filing bankruptcy, is it fraudulent to be entering into agreements with and take money from people, knowing that that the people it took money from will have no benefit, and no recourse?
I’m curious.
Ann, as a matter of general principles, I agree that the Prairie Rose business should not expect those suffering injury from the WWW deal to flock to its doors. I think, however, that such folks were not likely potential customers there in the first place.
A reminder. Mr. Etheredge and his corporation were “insiders” as to WWW, and therefore will not be first in line for any distributions from the Chapter 11 action. I would submit that to the extent that any payments were made to Restoration Farms, Inc. or the Etheredges on the unsecured debt at a time other creditors were not being paid, there could be a preference there. However, if the Chapter 11 had been in the plans for a while, I’m sure the very competent counsel retained would have made sure such preferences didn’t happen, or if they had happened, they were reversed, prior to the filing.
As an insider, does Etheredge get one of the 20 votes on the Creditor’s Committee?
Tom, I’m going to be a bit vague in my answer here. It could indeed be fraud, if the necessary elements are provable.
With reference to the recent sales of season passes, I believe this falls squarely within certain provisions of the Kansas Consumer Protection Act. Again, if this be true, then to proceed against Wild West World, LLC, there would need be proceedings brought to lift the automatic stay in the Bankruptcy case, which could be opposed on the grounds that such actions would be detrimental to the overall plan of reorganization (here, the attempt to sell the park and equipment).
Republican, to my knowledge, the Eagle is a creditor of WWW only, not an investor.
MrC, yesterday I posted my hypothesis concerning one way this could be done via a sale/leaseback. Ben then followed with his thoughts that the $400,000 represented an earnest money deposit on the sale of related real estate (together with interest thereon). It could also be possible that the Summit Church made a $400,000 loan. This will eventually come out in the wash, but at present it’s anyone’s guess.
Tom, as I’ve not been practicing in Bankruptcy matters for a good while, the following answer is my best guess; no, as an insider, he couldn’t serve. I leave it to others more experienced and more current on the law to correct this if my response is incorrect.
There would seem to be some conflict of interest if an insider, being one of the largest 20 unsecured creditors, who is also the President of the Corporation which is the sole member of the LLC which has requested to be allowed to operate the business as the Debtor in Possession, was allowed to be a member of the Creditors’ Committee.
Ok Mr. C. Good to see you here. Email or call me.
So VT, I’m trying to figure out the whole possible sale/leaseback thing. Even so, how would THAT make summit a creditor? Wouldnt they have to own whatever was being “leased back” to WWW?
Where the hell does a new church get that kinda money? For that purpose? And the little ayatollah put in 50k of “his own money”?
No damn wonder he cant pay his personal property taxes.
Who determines WHICH posts are deleted? I had a post deleted earlier today–that had nothing bad in it. It was about why business owners choose to incorporate so as to save their own personal assets. Something about TE still coming outsmelling like a rose with his own millions. WHY would a post like that get deleted? Hmmmm
I think the WE is a creditor, not an investor.
Your 2:29 and 2:31 posts are still there.
Again, I am thinking of some of the “little people.”
I might have the organization names wrong, but the Learjet/Bombardier employees association? — had their annual picnic scheduled at WWW. I don’t know if they paid yet, but I bet they did. It was set for August, I believe.
Also, a group of local retired firefighters had planned to have a picnic out there in the next week or two.
Wow, do civic groups and employee groups have to read a prospectus, now, before they book a social event?
I did not know this until TODAY: My Mother was at WWW on Sunday, the last day of operation, with several of my nieces/her grand daughters. She said that it was “very clean, the people were nice, and you didn’t have to wait in line very long at all.”
I was affraid when she told me all of this that she had bought season tickets for several of her grandchildren. Afterall, she bought season tickets for the Zoo and Exploration Place several times, for all of them.
Glad we dodged that bullet! She said she didn’t buy season passes. (But Dad was in the room. I will ask again when he can’t hear us talking.)
I wonder if you can sell a WWW season ticket on Ebay, as a collectors item??
My kids have been in Mississippi for the last week, with their other Grandmother, so they didnt get to go.
I am sad, for one, that they missed this historic chance.
I just want to see Wichita do something RIGHT, do you understand?
Hell, I would even buy tickets from Farmgirl or JR, if they would put something together to make us all proud.
Politics is one thing, civic pride and community spirit are another.
I am still hopeful that no laws were broken. It is not for any of us to judge now, before the facts are in.
Still, you can’t help watching it all unfold.
Rob and Angel Dillard, listed right under summit church on the adobe file are Summit Church’s youth ministers. It says they contributed 300,000. That plus the 400,000, plus Terry Fox’s 50,000. How much was that land?
By the way, the East High 30 year reunion is at Cowtown this Saturday.
I havent asked yet, but I bet our organizers thought about WWW!
Another bullet dodged.
I bet SOMEBODY had a reunion planned at WWW!
Paul, your concern for the “little people” is touching indeed, as is your concern for civic pride.
The cold hard hand of the free market, however, doesnt share your sentimentality.
People voted with their feet and their wallets. The market won. WWW lost.
Poor vision, poor financial planning, extreme arrogance, a history of prison time for fraud…why couldn’t investors see all the red flags? And he’s still blaming the weather…”A fool and his money…”
Terry Fox makes it sounds like he was backstabbed in an article today, saying that he was told that the money would be a good investment. Already jumping ship and backstabbing your friends, Reverend. Boy that sounds familiar. Besides, I thought that the money you donated was for land. Already changing your story…
Couldn’t have happened to a nicer person.
stalker, let’s not confuse his personal investment of $50,000 with the $400,000+ from the Summit Church to acquire land, if this is what it was for.
There seems to be some confusion in the media reporting as well as by those posting here and those commenting on the various stories as to the identities of the parties relevant to this issue. Mr. Etheredge, as an individual, is currently under investigation by the Securities Commissioner. Wild West World, LLC, is the entity which owned and operated the park, and is the one which is the subject to the Chapter 11 proceedings. There is also Restoration Farms, Inc., which, as far as I can determine, is wholly owned by the Etheredges and is the sole member of the LLC. It (the corporation) may be the entity which operates the Prairie Rose. I’m not clear about that. While these all appear to be one and the same, for purposes of legal proceedings they are not, at least initially.
Similarly, there is Terry Fox, the individual, and Summit Church, an organization which may or may not be incorporated (I haven’t looked) which operates a church on the WWW property, of which Terry Fox is the pastor.
Current Entity Name Business Entity ID NumberSUMMIT CHURCH 3971827
Current Mailing Address: EDGAR WM. DWIRE – 305 W. CENTRAL, WICHITA, KS 67202
Business Entity Type: DOM:NOT FOR PROFIT CORPORATION
Current Status: CORPORATION IS ACTIVE AND IN GOOD STANDING
Date of Formation in Kansas: 08/18/2006
State of Organization: KS
I bet the blurring of the lines between personal and private, public and private, and corpirate and individual will become an issue at some point.
And the question will be if it was done on purpose to cover tracks, or it was just that no one competent was overseeing the whole project and not individual pieces.
Frankly, you have no idea how many public/private deals like this are put together… like this.
You just usually dont hear about it. But given the high profile here, anyone who thought secrets could be kept was dreaming.
My Dad used to say “what’s done in the dark will eventually come into the light”.
Popping the corn…
Thanks, Tom. I felt that was the case.
Interestingly, Fox got fired on August 6. It didn’t take long for him to file Summit’s incorporation papers!
I’d be curious to see who the incorporators are…
Oh, yeah, kfg, that (blurring the lines) is, IMHO, going to become a really BIG issue in this thing before it’s all said and done. Keep a spare bowl for me.
My money is on the attorney who is serving as the resident agent.
Hell, VT, it’s too late to plant more popcorn this year…
We’ll have to settle for chicken nuggets :) And potatoes!
Heheheh. Like scooter, that “blurring of the lines” could be a way to throw sand in somebody’s eyes. Or it could be a project gone wild with no adult supervision. and no mal intent.
I guess it will take awhile for us to wash the sand out of our eyes so this deal can be seen clearly.
And given the published comments of some of the investors and creditors (and that is a distinction WITH a difference) I expect to hear a lot of what we have come to expect with the cons and repubs during congressional hearings.
“I dont recall.” Or “I didnt know.”
Seems like a highly catchy disease.
…and all’s sure quiet about the Conway Bank and its problems.
I wonder why Fox refused to tell the Eagle reporter what the interest on his $50,000 “loan” was supposed to be. Is Godly Pastor Terry charging usurious rates? Hmmmmm?
Duh, it just struck me that Tom’s inquiry was about the real incorporators, rather than the person who executed the Articles of Incorporation as the incorporator. That’s a very interesting question, Tom. Now, to the coffee pot, as the caffeine levels need to be elevated quickly.
Gee, kfg, forgetting usurious rates for a moment… I wonder if he was promised a higher rate than the Church?
Oops, the last one was in response to Tom. Wish that coffee pot would hurry up and finish brewing.
Vaughn,
There are worse people to be confused with…
Tom, I think all the vague answers are around the issue of whether or not these were “equity” positions or true debt positions. I havent figured a guess, from the comments, if they are trying to hang etheridge or trying to protect him.
But fox’s “stabbed in the back” meme is a clue where this is headed, providedw it wasnt taken out of context.
Damn, some WE reporter could really make a name for themselves here. Makes me want to dust off the ol’ note pad.
heheheheheehehehhe…….
Hell, maybe there’s even a book in this :)
“The Anatomy of a Typical Economic Development Project in Kansas”
or
“All the king’s horses and all the king’s men, couldnt put humpty together again?”
hehehehehheheheheheheehe!
Gee thanks Tom. Heheheh. That’s the MOST praise I’ve gotten in a long time.
Although the laying hens are sucking up big time since the meat birds went to the great fryer in the sky.
:)
Farmgrrl,
If people are in possession of promissory notes, those aren’t equity stakes. But yeah, the statements about exactly _what_kind_ of receipts/notes/securities people are holding are pretty damn vague.
They’re either covering, or they’re too stupid to breathe on their own.
That’s the MOST praise I’ve gotten in a long time.Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 12, 2007 at 10:23 AM
You need to get out more!!
PS, don’t forget to email me directions. And what kind of beer do you like?
Well, if the same were equity positions, then these folks would have been members of Wild West World, LLC, which would be contrary to the statement contained in the filings that Restoration Farms, Inc. was the sole member.
Oops sorry. Are you coming via I-70? If not, let me know.
Any beer that doesnt make me forgetful? heheheheh. Dont worry about alcohol. I really dont drink much anymore.
“The ol’ gray mare she aint what she used to be”.
True enough VT. But all this was supposedly done verbally. Perhaps they were promised equity, but were never given the positions? I think that must be what the security guys want to know. All this talk about “prospectus” wouldnt be coming up if it was a straight loan, would it?
And, for crying out loud, did ANYBODY do some “buyer beware” research here?
They seem to be a little slow on the paperwork of all kinds. Like the SBA takeout paperwork just now being on its way?
Tom, I agree about the vague nature of the public utterances. From the comments reported, I infer that some of these folks aren’t holding anything on paper, which, if true, would seem to be very curious at a minimum. Such would also be harmful to any claim asserted, as the transaction would be facially violative of the Statute of Frauds.
The Statute of Frauds, for those curious, requires that evidence of certain transactions be in writing, e.g., all transactions covering the transfer of real estate, debts/contracts over $500, to be enforceable. The above examples are not all-inclusive, and there are exceptions.
kfg, not necessarily. As I posted yesterday(?), loans may be securities under the definitions of both the Kansas and Federal Securities Acts (think bonds, debentures as more “formal” examples). While it’s been a long time since I took Securities Regulation in Law School, and I’ve assiduously avoided doing any practice in that area since, there are some exceptions to a full blown prospectus being provided in a loan situation, but some form of disclosure document is needed, IIRC.
BTW, in the case of loans, the promissory note or other evidence of debt (again, forgoing discussion of the bonds, debentures types) don’t necessarily need registration as it is likely the same will not be publicly traded, but issuance of these debt instruments are subject to the “anti-fraud” provisions of both state and Federal law. Thus, the discussion concerning disclosure.
Is prospectus different from disclosure? I know I am lazy and could look it up. I thought that is why lenders did the due dill thing, because they needed to know if things known or unknown were not being disclosed?
Maybe like in real estate, any known defects must be disclosed?
I am in waaaaay over my head now.
From what I see Mister Ethridge did NOT have the slightest idea how to run a theme park. And in reality he could have learn how to do it very easily. There are some very good Computer games called Roller Coaster Tycoon that will teach you how to run a theme park. If you don’t learn to do it correctly, your customers will not come and your park will lose money and close. Since I have played these games I guess you could say that I know more about how to run a theme parks than He did.
Well, AFM, the possibility exists that etheridge had no mal intent, and the sharks that usually surround these kinda deals smelled blood (money) in the water, and they all started feeding.
I’ve seen that happen too. And they rarely get left holding the bag. Three plus mil is not a small amount of equity, and maybe more if personal guarentees and mortgages were involved. I can just imagine the sounds of shark sniffing.
Unless money is being stashed somewhere, and I doubt it is since this is partly a comedy of errors, etheridge is likely to take a 100 percent bath.
I’ll leave the moral judgements about that to someone else.
Still popping the corn.
kfg, a prospectus is the most formal and complete form of a disclosure document.
Without doing any research at all in the statutes and regulations, I would think that a disclosure document which did the following would have a chance to comply with the same in the case of the loans from private individuals living in the State of Kansas: a statement of the purposes for which the funds borrowed will be used; an analysis of the risk involved; some sort of pro forma financial information; and the normal identification of the principals, together with the standard language about nonregistered securities not being able to be sold to a third party failing subsequent registration or an exemption from registration. This is a flatout guess on my part, but I think the above would be the minimum the Security Commissioner’s office would want to see; and if such doesn’t exist, they’re going to want to know why.
And yes, that’s why lenders do due diligence reviews to see if the relevant material facts are being fully disclosed.
What you describe is usually the standard for any economic development loan package. Or bank loan for that matter.
Except the risk analysis. I guess we never trusted ANY client to tell us that, we did our own analysis and came to our own conclusions on the risk/reward.
I would expect a client to disclose any unusual or hidden risks. But I’d still cut the deck before the cards were dealt.
heheheh. That’s another one from my Dad. Trust everyone but cut the cards anyway…
Exactly, kfg, on all points. However, most folks who are in financial trouble regarding a new business who are going to their “friends and acquaintances” for capital are doing so because the formal lenders have cut them off. In the case of the individual lender, unless he/she is somewhat sophisticated, that individual isn’t going to think about asking for the information a bank, etc., requires, and certainly are not equipped to do a due diligence review.
Hey KsFarmgrrl-
While I won’t be stopping by, I will be cruising by on i70 next week on my way to Colorado. COnsider this a wave howdy as I pass by
Agreed VT. In the VC world, we called that the “Triple F Fund”.
Friends, family and fools…
Ok lj :) It’s so damn flat out here I can probably see you waving on the interstate 20 miles away!
Yea. I thought Kansas was flat, then I got to Western Kansas and i realized I didn;t know what flat meant.
Littlejohn,
A lot of that flatness compared to eastern Kansas has to do with the lack of freely-flowing water. If you run water over an ancient seabed that’s turned to limestone, you get interesting topography, such as the Flint Hills, or the rolling terrain of SE Kansas.
I’m guessing you haven’t been to the flat salt plains in Utah then littlejohn.
Tom-
I agree. And I think even the GYP HILLS are pretty neat to travel throught. Eastern Kansas is much nicer. But still, dang. I live west of Wichita Slightly. Among wheat fields. Pretty dang flat. BUt whoa. Western Kansas is like the slate on my pool table. FLAT
heheheheh I knew a guy in Beaumont, Texas who used to remind me that in Kansas, the land is flat, the food is flat and the people are flat. I only disagreed with the latter.
Gee. I wish I was flat, instead of spherical
heheheh. Yeah, well, I dont really have to worry about rolling down hill much….
laughs, then recognizes the danger in going to Colorado
http://www.ksn.com/news/local/8446657.html
More fallout from Park collapse:
Acrobats say Wild West World paycheck bounced
The group of Chinese acrobats who were performing at the amusement park tells us their pay for the past two weeks is part of the bankruptcy filing. And now, the group’s manager says he just found out the last paycheck they got from Wild West World bounced.
“This is not a good image of an American businessman,” the groups Manager Sherman Wang said.
Maybe the Church WWW owner attends will pick up the tab for the Chinese Acrobats. You know can’t leave those Chinese “flipping” mad about the U.S. and convicted felons robbing them of their pay.
I’d love to see someone like Charles Chandler pick them up and give performances in the Orpheum or Century II.
Go in Thomas Etheridge’s office out at Prairie Rose. He has a bookcase that is a shrine to George W. Bush. With Bush sending him tokens (eg. a three pack of embossed cigars) acknowledging Etheridge’s significant contributions to the Bush debacle.
It’ll show you what Etheridge worships, and it has nothing to do with the Christian God.
It’s been told that summit church passed around the offering plate specifically for WWW. That would contridict the 400,000 being just for land. Come on Wichita Eagle, so much potential, so much to investigate.
Hey gang. Here’s something I found:
# Sunday, July 29, 2007# Gates open from Noon – 9 p.m. (Rides start at 1 p.m.)# Tickets offered at a reduced cost if you bring your church bulletin.# A percentage of all ticket sales that day will go to benefit the work of Maude Carpenter’s Children’s Home and Youth Horizons.# Bring a can of Pepsi for free parking.
Well, just did a quick review of the latest motions filed in the Chapter 11 case. AT&T appears to have some egg on its face, and wants out of the deal to put WWW on its directory cover, which should be granted IMHO. WWW is taking on Citizens’ Bank of Kansas on its claimed offset of the payroll account (why at least some paychecks are not being cashed notwithstanding the existence of funds sufficient to cover the same), which, from reading the motion and my limited knowledge, should be sustained. BTW, why banks charge nonaccount holders for cashing checks drawn on an account in that bank; it all has to do with the cost of business being borne by nondepositors, together with the warranty of an endorser of a check (or other negotiable instrument for that matter).