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Open thread 7/31
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted July 31, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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215 Comments
Speaking, as CF2K was on another thread, of Republican hissy-fits, here’s a nice book about Right-Wing masculine anxiety and its political implications, “The Wimp Factor.”
http://books.google.com/books?id=9kpgefWjV48C&dq=the+wimp+factor&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=BFuL7COBIf&sig=2Qg_zaP20B-L3_6CMRPX84-Lrp0#PPA24,M1
Here’s a choice quote that has been excerpted elsewhere:
“By far the most compelling confirmation of the phallic meaning of the president’s aircraft-carrier cakewalk was found on the hot-selling “George W. Bush Top Gun action figure” manufactured by Talking Presidents. I originally ordered one to use as part of the cover design for this book. The studly twelve-inch flyboy not only comes with a helmet and visor, goggles and oxygen mask, but underneath his flight suit is a full “basket” — a genuine fake penis, apparently constructed with lifelike silicone.”
CF2K now knows what “qualification” outlander perceived as lacking among the leading Democratic contenders.
Federal agents snapped photos and trained video cameras on the home of U.S. Sen. Ted Stevens during a search related to a public corruption investigation, law enforcement officials said.http://www.kansas.com/wireupdates/story/135700.htmlAnother republican-style retirement from the Senate?
CBS did a report about “gangs in the military”. Of course all of us and CBS have the initial reactions of “oh this is terrible” that gang members are joining the military in ever greater numbers. But then I got to thinking about it more… and is it really so bad? Think about it- the Army and USMC are kind of “the ultimate gang” themselves. If you think about it, they use much the same initiation rites, colours and organization that a street gang uses. And they arm their members and send them to kill the enemy. Well, I would rather have members of the Crips in Iraq killing them than over here killing us. And they can bring to the Army their experience in urban warfare and weaponry is a plus for the Army as well. And the biggest thing is that they are off the streets, getting paid for doing what they were doing on the streets and getting a future that is better than what they had before. So I really think we should encourage gang members to join the Army.
Giuliani says Dems want ‘nanny government’
for U.S.By Philip Elliot, Associated Press July 30, 2007
MEREDITH, N.H. (AP) — Republican presidential hopeful Rudy Giuliani on Monday accused Democrats of favoring a controlling “nanny government” as he continued his bashing of the rival party.The former New York mayor, opening a two-day campaign trip in the first primary state, also claimed that Democrats would raise taxes between 20 percent to 30 percent. He offered no specifics to back up those figures.”Democrats are kind of falling over each other seeing who can raise taxes faster,” Giuliani said. “It looks like they’re going to raise taxes anywhere between 20 to 30 percent. John Edwards just said he’s going to raise the capital gains tax double that. Last time we did that, we lost 40 percent in revenue. The last time we did what John Edwards is discussing, the United States lost revenue by basically discouraging people from making investments.”Edwards has proposed raising capital gains taxes for the wealthy while creating tax breaks for the middle class.At a later appearance in Wolfeboro — where rival Mitt Romney has a lakefront summer home — Giuliani said the solution lies in lower taxes.”We should love this problem of taxes being too high by lowering taxes,” he said, standing on the steps of an ice cream shop.Last week, Giuliani called the Democrats the “party of losers” and singled out Edwards and Democratic Sen. Barack Obama for criticism on economics and foreign policy.Giuliani argued that he favors less government and lower taxes.”That’s what makes America great, not this nanny government that Democrats want to give us, where government controls your entire life,” he said.Giuliani leads in some national polls, but trails former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney by double figures in the most recent New Hampshire surveys.On Tuesday, Giuliani intends to outline his health care plan. Giuliani’s goal is to give individuals more control over health care decisions and to encourage state officials to come up with innovative solutions.Key to his plan is a $15,000 tax deduction for families to buy private health insurance, instead of getting insurance through employers. Any leftover funds could be rolled over year-to-year for medical expenses, under Giuliani’s plan.”That cash allows you to go out and buy cheaper and cheaper policies; you can have higher and higher deductibles,” Giuliani said earlier this month in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.He compared private health plans to plasma TVs, saying the plans would come down in cost as demand grows.
Thank goodness we have a candidate who doesn’t want to be Robin Hood.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/opinion/30pollack.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Not sure how the Eagle missed this New York Times Op-ed about how the “surge” is working. They certainly turn everything negative it prints into an Iraq thread.
The surge is working.Price of gas is down.The economy is booming.Thank God the Dems are back in power!Posted by: ***KAHN***
And just what did any democrat have to do with any of the above, heh?
God will redirect your thanks to the appropriate party,President Bush.
— a genuine fake penisPosted by: CF2K July 31, 2007 at 05:09 AM
CF2K spends a lot of time focusing on the male anatomy. Careful analysis of his prior posts will support this.
How does Guiliani’s plan help the uninsured?
Will Guiliani get the price of private insurance down below large group price BEFORE that $15,000 tax deduction? If not, where does he expect the additional money to come from?
When was the last time Guiliani took a look at the price of private health care plans?
The price of gas is down from when? Last month? What about pre-Bush prices? Is it down from then?
Rox-Be realistic. How many basic commodities are cheaper than they were 6 years ago?
Rox-Be realistic. How many basic commodities are cheaper than they were 6 years ago?
VCR’s, TV’s, Computers, printers, telephones, microwave’s.
The cost of living is killing us up here. We’re paying just shy of $4.00 per gallon of milk. I live in a VERY large dairy producing area. About $1.50-$1.98 for a dozen eggs. What are prices like down there?
How does Guiliani’s plan help the uninsured?Posted by: Rox | July 31, 2007 at 08:17 AM
Since when is providing health care a function of our federal government? Is there a constitutional source for this? I know I sound harsh to a small number of people in the great red state, but where does the government “nanny” end? Can government be the provider of all good things to all it’s people?
And just WHERE do you suppose the federal government will get the money to pay for everyone’s healthcare?
Basic to me–
Sorry, none of those are basic commmodities. And the reason those you have listed have gone down is? Oh yea. Technological advances and cheap labor in China
Sol, at Dillons (Kansas’ largest grocery chain) non-sale prices on milk, eggs are basically the same; 1 gal Dillons brand 2% milk last night was $3.93. Braums, a regional dairy/ice cream business had less expensive milk; last gallon I purchased there was $2.86, IIRC, about two weeks ago. Distance from Braums to home makes it a bit inconvenient to regularly shop there, and if Dillons has its normal “ad items” (milk being one on “sale” regularly in the past), the cost of gas to travel to Braums may well offset any lower price (not necessarily when milk is not at a sale price).
What has driven the price so high? The cost of fuel to deliver products? My grocery bill is up at LEAST 25%. What gives?
Sol, that’s part of it. Another factor is the increased price of corn, due to its being used for Ethanol production. There are more, but the same escape me at the moment.
One reason is that European Union has stopped giving milk subsidies to dairy farmers and most likely the most influential is high demand.
There has been a huge increase in the purchase of powdered milk by third world countries.
Of course, this affects everything else containing milk – ice cream, cheese, etc.
Price of eggs, I’m unsure unless for the same reasons as stated above.
I buy my milk on sale (albeit never by the gallon) and pay less than $3.00/gallon and less than $1.00 for a dozen eggs.
It’s not rocket science, the rising cost of fuel drives up the price of EVERYTHING…I just got back from Bonaire and the cost of gas there is $1.95 a liter…and it’s only 50 miles off the coast of Venezuela, a huge oil producer. BUT, I think it’s a good thing, money talks and the higher oil prices go, the faster we’ll develop alternate energy sources, which will be a win/win situation.I just saw an interesting report on an engineer who has found a way to produce energy from sea water. The science to do it is out there, we just have to make an effort and not let the big oil companies get in our way.
Bring on that cheap China labor. We need more of that. I thought we are on a roll with China providing basic food stuffs (commmmmmmodities), but they screwed the pooch on that one for awhile. Maybe we can tap some other asian countries to make us stuff. More cheap Japanese cars are needed. They have the advantage of being safer than American made and proven higher reliability. Of course, the later may change as they starte building more of them here. Anyway, the more cheap consumer stuff I can buy frees up my income for bread, milk, and eggs. I eat too much anyway. America is getting fat. Like cigarrettes, maybe we need to start taxing these commodities at a higher level. Discourage eating…..
PS, I’ve been thinking about buying some chickens…the thought of having free range, organic eggs and a natural pest control in my yard really appeals to me. I also started an organic garden for tomatoes this summer. The price is right and the taste is heads above what you can get in the stores.
Mary Caruso,
The price of gas in Kansas is about 0.73/liter. 3.785 liters to a gallon.
PS, I’ve been thinking about buying some chickens.
If you live in town, you better check the city ordnances first……
Freakin Ethanol. Man I SAID it is a straw man and will do more to damage this nation than save it. So beef and poultry prices will rise as well. Isn’t that AWESOME !!! And there are barely a percentage of vehicles out there running E85. Y’all see what ethanol will give us? Higher prices EVERYWHERE. Isn’t that just grand???
Sol, there are other biomass sources which can be used for Ethanol. Corn, however, is the source du jour. With reference to Ethanol production, let us not forget the use of a scarce commodity, at least here in parts of Kansas, water for its production (not to mention irrigation of the corn, etc.).
Kansas…that was my point. Gas is still a lot cheaper here than in other countries…when it gets to the point that we pay what everyone else has paid for years, then we’ll change our ways and maybe we’ll become less dependant on fossil fuels and the countries that provde it for us.
And just WHERE do you suppose the federal government will get the money to pay for everyone’s healthcare?
Posted by: Ain’t that the truth | July 31, 2007 at 08:46 AM
Why, the same place your healthcare is coming from now–your pocket. You’re already paying for the healthcare of others–others who are insured by your health insurance company. Do you think there’s a fund with your name on it, where all your money for premiums is being stashed until YOU need it?
Freakin Ethanol.Posted by: SolDevVB
You got that right. I have proven that I personally get worse gas mileage when I buy the ethanol blend. My car shows MPG to the tenth of a second (it’s a hyrid). The price savings is not significant – and is only less because the government subsidizes the producers. I’m told it is expensive to make. I avoid buying it. But in MN it is the only gas available by law. I really don’t see how ethanol is solving anything.
On the plus side, the price of corn is going up, helping our farmers. Maybe we can cut off the farm welfare (sorry, I mean subsidies) now that they are making more.
VT,
I’ve been preaching that over and over again. Ford, Honda and Toyota GET it!!! Hydrogen cells/electric hybrids will save the day. They are even talking about solar powered – gadgets?- that produce Hydrogen. Crap man, a service station in your own garage. How freakin cool is that.
But if you do that, where does Big Oil get its money. I expect major push back, but God willing, the people’s voice will be heard by the auto makers. Ford is listening. Tesla is listening. How long until GM and Chrysler listen?
Agreed,
Therein lays the problem. Why is the government sponsoring the alternative? Who is to say which alternative is best? The gov’t FU@KS up enough in this country. Let the free market decide the next technology!!!
As I watched the local news last night, the list of churches that are vocally opposing the casino is amazing. Then a thought crossed my mind…aren’t churches tax exempt? Then I thought…..yes they are. Which brings me to my point, ITS TIME THAT CHURCHES STARTED PAYING TAXES LIKE THE REST OF US!!!! They meddle in politics and guide their slaves to vote in the churches best interest. They can’t have it both ways. Either pay taxes or shut up!!
I’ve heard of drastic measures being taken to lower labor costs, but this is just too much:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/31/raise.denied.ap/index.html
Agreed, I’m no engineer, but it is my understanding that Ethanol has less potential energy than gasoline per molecule, thus the need to burn more of it to travel the same distance than gasoline. Someone who has a bit more knowledge surely can help us out here.
Sol, I don’t know when GM and Chrysler will “get it”. There is that electric car project shelved by GM a few years ago…
Mary Caruso,
You gave an example of some small country which pays a higher price for gasoline.
Look at the chart for the price of gasoline around the world.
http://www.gadling.com/2007/06/26/the-price-of-gas-around-the-world/
If you look at the price of gasoline in Venezuela it is at $0.17/gallon. (lower left – Caracas, Venezuela)
That’s right, $0.17/gallon for the price of gas in Venezuela.
Why do you want to be charged more for gasoline?
Do you have an economic death wish Mary?
Don’t you realize that every goods and service that utilizes gas or petroleum products would go up?
Let’s put the thinking cap on okay? :)
Church goers are voters too Mike, get over it.
DUH !!! Read her post. Higher gas prices will drive the demand for alternatives. Why don’t you try your own cap, for once.
Church goers are voters too Mike, get over it.Posted by: Kansas | July 31, 2007 at 09:38 AM
Nobody said that they did not vote. Just look at what idiot they installed in the White House. My point is Kansas, they enjoy tax exempt status and meddle in politics. They do not get to have it both ways! And personally, I am sick and tired of those “Church goers” legislating morality, when they are more immoral than most of us. They preach tolerance and foregiveness and go out and practice hate and intolerance. All churches SHOULD PAY TAXES!!!!!!!! Then they can campaign from the pulpit all they want!
Sol, you’d be amazed at what products contain how much corn. Corn syrup sweetner is in EVERYTHING, even things you wouldnt think of as being “sugared”. Corn oil is just as ubiquitous. Corn meal, corn flakes, ALL corn products.
Not to mention ethanol. And if SUBSIDIZED corn production and usurptation isnt enough…
DONT FORGET THE WATER. Corn by and large needs irrigation. So water mining increases to grow the damn stuff, then the water used to produce it, then the fuel to ship it.
And some of the ethanol plants out here actually have their grain TRUCKED IN from out of state, not just down the road. Believe it or not, we are actually a “grain deficit” out here. We are a regional IMPORTER of grain, not producer.
So think of all the energy used to grow corn, the chemicals that keep corn on life support, the water useage to grow it, then the fuel to harvest it, then it has to be trucked to where it is needed, then it is processed using MORE water and fuel, then it is trucked to where it is sold.
Oh hell yeah, ethanol is a good thing. (Big EFFIN eye roll here) It sure enough is worth the state government, and the Kansas Energy Council spendin all their time and MONEY to SUBSIDIZE an entire resource sucking, conservation destroying, community killing industry.
And did I mention that governor leadership has put JOE FREAKIN’ HARKINS in charge of the whole mess?
Any coincidence that joe “darth cheney” harkins was sebelius choice to head up and screw up the kansas water office after Clark Duffy was fired for standing up to Hays and RUSSELL with their ethanol plant in the middle of the desert?
Any coincidence between that, sebelius’s ties to big irrigated corn grower campaign donations, putting STEVE IRSIK, one of the biggest irrigation hogs and subsidy sucking farmers in the state as the head of the kansas water board?
Sebelius and her merry henchmen of joe harkins, adrian polansky, janis lee and the whole hee haw corn growing gang are selling YOU out on corn, ethanol, and water.
But the sheeple in kansas just follow along. When your water is gone, your small farmers are gone and ethanol producers have sucked up the subsidies and left a wake of destruction as they left the state…
… will anyone in kansas give a damn THEN?
Probably not.
They’d just rather whine about abortion, gay marriage, and the cost of food and fuel.
So much easier that way than removing the blinder so they can SEE sebelius and her henchmen raping the state.
Kansas…we’ve been spoiled by cheap gas for too long and it has made us fat and wasteful. In 5 years I doubt you’ll see too many Humvees or other big, gas guzzeling vehicles on road…and we’ll be better off for it. Less pollution, less waste, more efficiency, and cleaner alternative fuel sources. It’s only when the cost becomes too high that people and countries make significant changes. We’re already in an political and economic disaster due to our dependance on oil. Think about it!
“On the plus side, the price of corn is going up, helping our farmers.”
Uh, sorry, no. It helps BIG IRRIGATORS, not small dryland farmers. Who in turn, go out and bid up the price of land and equipment, (cause they can pay for them with subsidies) and run even MORE small farmers out of business.
Ethanol is a net energy LOSER. It takes, as VT said, more energy to make it than it produces in the end. SO everytime you buy ethanol for your car, you are using MORE energy than if you put gasoline in the tank.
And that doesnt even count the water. But please, let sebelius make her cronies rich so they can finance her NEXT campaign…
The problem with gangs in the military, is after they discharge, they will train other members to be professional killers. That’s all we need para-military crips and bloods. Imagine the increased danger to civilian law enforcement with gang bangers that can actually shoot straight, devise explosives, and use military armament!
… and if you think WIND is going to save you while it destroys farms and communities, take a look at my friend Peg’s blog. You might just be surprised.
http://www.kansasprairie.net/blog1/blogindex.htm
GOP Straw poll. Please contribute if you’d like.
Big shocker who is leading — you guessed it. My favorite -2nd tier- candidate. If he is 2nd tier, why does he lead so many polls?
RON PAUL 2008 !!!
http://www.freedomworks.org/strawpoll/
ITS TIME THAT CHURCHES STARTED PAYING TAXES LIKE THE REST OF US!!!! They meddle in politics and guide their slaves to vote in the churches best interest. They can’t have it both ways. Either pay taxes or shut up!!
Posted by: Mike | July 31, 2007 at 09:33 AM
Fine with me, if EVERY tax exempt organization does the same. Every Tax exempt.
Phantom, exactly. I’m sure the civilian LE authorities are just thrilled with the prospect of well-trained on automatic weaponry and other military armaments gang members returning to the streets once their enlistments are over (voluntarily or involuntarily).
Conservation is the only cost effective answer. It is cheaper and more effective than wind or ethanol. Biodiesel isnt much better.
They all have a place in the mix, but this rush to ethanol and wind in kansas just cracks me up and it would make me laugh if it were not so sad.
Ten to fifteen years from now, you will all be cussing sebelius, joe harkins, adrian polansky and janis lee. Why? Because the money from the state coffers will be gone, small farmers and small towns will be gone, and the tax base reduced just at the time these ethanol plants will run out of water and subsidized grain.
Think of the beauty! All those wind generators sitting idle, rusting and falling apart while the tax money to take them down is gone. The folks who own them will be long gone, either out of biz or morphed into something else so THEY cant be held responsible.
How many of these wind farms had agreements up front to decommission the towers? How many demanded escrow payments for decommissioning before the owners disappear or go bankrupt?
How many communities and how much state money will they make off with in the ethanol industry? Wont those idle ethanol plants be a real tourist attraction? And the small towns that voted FOR these ethanol plants will be gone, and the remaining subsidized big corn growers and irrigators will NOT pay the bill then.
Just like they wont pay the bill now.
And the sheeple sleep….
Farmie,
Don’t know those people you mentioned. But maybe another caveat. Big farms. Big commercialized farms driving out the family run farms. Won’t that be fun?
And they get a hand out for growing corn. Now they get a hand out for producing ethanol. Huh, how much of my money is going to support a technology I don’t think is worthy of a dime. But you gotta love the Neo-cons for deciding for me.
When the hell are the REPUBLICANS going to take back control of their party???
“Fine with me, if EVERY tax exempt organization does the same. Every Tax exempt.”
LJ, not all tax exempt organizations are blatantly political like some churches. I think they should pay taxes if they are violating their 501(c)3 status. And a hell of a lot of churches ARE violating the 501(c)3 rules. Other orgs violate their 501(c)3 agreements as well.
Much like with immigration, we have laws on the books to deal with tax status violators. But we dont enforce them, ESPECIALLY when it is churches violating them.
So… how about we just punish the lawbreakers by enforcing the existing laws. Why punish ALL tax exempt groups instead of just punishing the guilty?
LJGood to banter back and forth with you again! I agree, there should be no organization with tax exempt status. Everyone should pay their share of taxes.
Socialized medicine anyone? I think Mikey Moore left a few things out.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html
It is just like the phoney hate crimes debate. If you dont want hate crime laws, fine. Let’s remove churches and religions from the hate crimes laws. Would you be ok with that LJ? I mean, just to level the playing field?
Most wingnuts feel the same way about special status for their churches that they do about the three exemptions they support for abortion.
Rape, incest and MY DAUGHTER!!!!!
So.. if churches are violating their IRS rules for tax exemption, you want to punish the non-lawbreaking groups? Why?
“But you gotta love the Neo-cons for deciding for me”
Uh, solly, with all due respect, in Kansas anyway, this whole thing is being driven by the corn lobby, farm bureau and other ag lobbies.
It is also being driven by sebelius, a democrat who just ACTS like a republican. Adrian Polansky, the ks sec of ag, is a BIG democrat, and so is joe “darth cheney” harkins. Janis Lee, the state senator who never met a corn subsidy or an irrigator she didnt heart, is a democrat.
So, dear Solly, in KANSAS at least, this rape of the environment belongs to the democrats. And their republican enablers who finance their campaigns with big ag money.
Neocons, unfortunately :) cant be blamed for this one. It belongs to democrats in kansas.
Just like our shitty water policy.
The Bush Family Evil Empire: Scandal Du Jour
Submitted from a disabled Iraq War Vet about another disabled Iraq War Vet–here it is without further comment:
Okay, I’ve got to tell you what happened. I’m still pumped up on adrenaline, and I’m not exactly writing this at my best, so please excuse my sloppiness, and I may not have all of the language that was used, but I’ll try to be as accurate as I can. And this all happened fast – a minute or two at the most.
So I’m at the grocery store with my wife a bit ago, we’re putting the groceries in the car, making small talk about the ridiculous heat and humidity. There’s a guy, maybe in his mid-fifties, in the slot next to us with an elderly lady sitting in the front seat, while he was putting groceries into their/his van. I’m going to call this guy ‘grocery guy’ so we can keep the players straight.
A truck pulls up next to grocery guy’s van, into the disabled parking spot. A man gets out of the truck, a blue Chevy S-10, and starts to walk toward the store (after this was all over, I noticed his left leg was dragging the pavement when he walked away, like he couldn’t pick it all the way up from the ground). So grocery guy, I guess to the old lady in the front seat, says, not loud, but enough volume to easily carry in the high humidity, “Humph! He doesn’t look disabled to me.”
The guy who had parked in the disabled spot and walked toward the store, without bothering anyone, stopped in his tracks. He turned slowly, then walked toward grocery guy.
“Excuse me?” said the disabled guy. “Did you say something to me?”
The man pretended he didn’t hear him, kept unloading groceries, fussing with bags, making himself appear to be busy. And I know he heard the guy, because my wife and I both heard him, and we were another car over.
Finally grocery guy turns toward the man and says, “I don’t know why you’re in that spot – you don’t look disabled, and I couldn’t find a spot for my mother today because people like you who take spots they don’t need.” Grocery guy puffs his chest out when he finishes his little speech – I thought he was trying to look tough or something.
The disabled guy’s face turns instantly angry, and he speaks loudly – not shouting, mind you, but authoritatively. “And what does a disabled person look like, sir?”
Grocery guy didn’t answer right away, so the disabled guy kept going.
“I just got back from Iraq about two months ago, and I’m still in physical therapy.” He pulled his shirt up and exposed a series of red and pink marks and pits (scars? burns?) running across his stomach, up toward his chest, and around his back. “Do I look disabled enough to you now?”
Grocery guy looks sheepish for a moment, as my wife and I stared at this young man, stunned.
The veteran pulled his shirt back down, and steps closer to grocery guy. You can feel something building in the air, and my wife and I stood there, waiting for it, not sure what to do.
The veteran points at grocery guy’s van. “I see you support the President.” My wife and I looked where the veteran was pointing and saw the ‘W04′ sticker on the back glass of grocery guy’s van. “So I have you to thank for these.” He gestured to his upper body, his voice beginning to rise a bit more. “And now you want to give me a hard time for going to get some milk?”
Grocery guy is scared now. He grabs his cell phone and unexpectedly screams – I mean screams – at the veteran, “I’m calling the cops!”
The veteran responded, rather calmly, “Go ahead – call them.”
“I will – and I’m going to tell them you’re threatening me!” Grocery guy flips his phone open and starts pressing buttons.
At this point, I lose it myself. I hobble around the back of grocery guy’s van, shaking and instantly outraged, and say, “That’s a good idea, sir. Call the cops. I’ve been here the whole time, and if anyone is acting threatening, it is YOU! So call them – or I will, if you won’t.”
I looked over at the veteran and told him, “I’m a veteran too, and I’ll not let this Bushie tell any lies about you – I’ve got your back.”
Seeing he was not going to be able to bully his way out of it, grocery guy put his phone on his clip, slammed the van doors closed, got into the driver’s seat, and pulled away.
The veteran looked at me, gave me a nod, turned, and limped into the store, holding his head high.
My wife and I thanked him for his service as he walked away. We both wanted to speak with him, I don’t know, to comfort him somehow, but we could both tell it would not be welcome, so we let him go on his way. This young man is in such pain, it is utterly heartbreaking.
I am really proud of this young man, this veteran, this kid – disabled in the line of duty. I’ll tell you, he handled it much better than I would of, in his shoes. I’m disabled, too, and I don’t take one ounce of shit about it from anyone – no one should have to.
And I’ll tell you one more thing – if this is any indication of how our soldiers feel once they’ve come home from Bush’s war, Bush supporters may just get more than an earful about their support for President Psycho…
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1473928
It is just like the phoney hate crimes debate. If you dont want hate crime laws, fine. Let’s remove churches and religions from the hate crimes laws. Would you be ok with that LJ? I mean, just to level the playing field?
Most wingnuts feel the same way about special status for their churches that they do about the three exemptions they support for abortion.
Rape, incest and MY DAUGHTER!!!!!
So.. if churches are violating their IRS rules for tax exemption, you want to punish the non-lawbreaking groups? Why?
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 31, 2007 at 10:04 AM
Point by point
1) Yes, it would be okay with me to remove churches and religions from hate crimes legislation. I support removal of ALL hate crimes legislation. You know that, or you should. I have posted it on here over and over again.
2) my position on abortion has never changed. And I don;t include My daughter being treated any different. Once again, you know my position and you know better
3)If churches are violating the rules, then they should lose their tax exempt status. Once again, you know my position because it has been stated frequently.
4) Mike didn;t say only rulebreakers, he said ALL churches. Pleas read upthread before you accuse me of something that I did not say in the same context it was said.
5) And if all churches should lose tax exempt statuts, so should all orgs. All of them get involved politically. ALL of them. (Okay, I am sure there are a few exceptins, but damn few) SO remove tax exemptions completely. I got no burn with that
littlejohn KFG
Do away with all that tax exempt crap. Support the FairTax.
http://WWW.FairTax.org
Heckler,
I do, but it will never come to pass. To many “special interest groups” to buy votes from
Send the ‘Special Interest Groups’ to Iraq.
The American public loses again.Bancroft family accepts News deal: DJ executive 47 minutes ago
CHICAGO (Reuters) – Dow Jones & Co. Inc.’s (DJ.N) controlling Bancroft family “has accepted” News Corp.’s (NWSa.N) $5 billion offer to buy the publisher of the Wall Street Journal, an executive of a Dow Jones unit said on Tuesday.
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Yes, VT, ethanol burns faster than gasoline. Ask anyone who races.
Have car manufacturers improved seals and other parts that use of ethanol impacts? Just how long will car engines last, using ethanol?
“But if you do that, where does Big Oil get its money.”
Sol, the answer to that is simple. Eventually, after taking a little hit, they’ll buy up all the small, alternative companies, and we’ll be right back where we are now.
Rox, I defer to anyone with racing knowledge. :-)
On the seals, etc., I would think the E85 vehicles would be, at least somewhat, “proof of concept” on this question. I believe that there have been vehicles in Brazil operating on methanol from sugar cane, and thus believe there’s a knowledge base there. Insofar as life of engine itself, I would think, but do not know, that with a lesser amount of potential energy within the ethanol molecule, the fuel/air explosion within the cylinder would be a bit less violent, thus applying my poor logic, the components would not wear out as fast. It is my understanding that ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline, thus I think there would be a lower potential for damage caused by impurities as well. Just my speculation, of course.
And, Rox, of course the “big oil” companies will purchase the small alternative companies if it’s to their overall economic advantage; see, e.g., Microsoft in another sector of the business economy.
Solar energy. The only companies that profit are those that build the panels/components of the solar panels. Big oil loses.
Using solar energy to create/convert hydrogen. Again, only the component makers profit. You get most of your hydrogen from you home generation and recharge your car from your solar panels. Big oil loses again.
Can you see why there is a big push towards E85? That is the only way Big Oil can keep its purse. E85 takes more energy to produce (not even considering the water and downstream costs by diverting grain) than it gives back. What-A-Baaahhhgaaahhhn
AMERICA HELD HOSTAGE: 2398 DAYSWHERE’S OSAMA BIN-LADEN? 2110 DAYSDAYS REMAINING UNTIL UNELECTED PRESIDENT IS FORCED OUT: 541 DAYS
You are correct, Sol.
That’s why the electric car had to “fail,” even when it succeeded wildly.
Electric cars can be powered by any source that generates electricity–solar, coal, nuclear, hydroelectric, wind.
There’s a Norweigian company that plans to use electric cars to help smooth out peak demands for power–cars hooked to the grid will give back electricity when needed and will charge when demand is low.
Ethanol is almost a wash considering how much fertilizer (made from oil of course), fuel, and water it takes to produce.
AND even if every blade of grass and every tree and shrub was turned into alcohol fuel, we’d still need to import oil.
Another risk is that of water contamination, which can produce engine wear directly and through corrosive formic acid in the combustion process.
Additionally, E85 contains less energy per volume as compared to gasoline. Although E85 contains only 72% of the energy on a gallon-for-gallon basis compared to gasoline, experimenters have seen slightly better fuel mileage than the 28% this difference in energy content implies. For example, recent tests by the National Renewable Energy Lab on fleet vehicles owned by the state of Ohio showed about a 25% reduction in mpg
The hydroxyl group on the ethanol molecule is an extremely weak acid, but it can enhance corrosion for some natural materials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines
Add to that the water consumption and rising cost of downstream grain deficits.
What-A-Baaaahgaaaaahn
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/31/navarrette/index.html
wherein, Mr. Navarrette argues that the illegal immigration issue is a self-inflicted wound. Offered for your information, no warranties express or implied.
The Iraqui government takes the month off to line their pockets with our $:http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20043428/
Cut-off the funding today or start thinning the ranks.
No watered-down time-tables, just cut-off the funding today.
No deals with the Devil.
None.
No more money, period.
It’s over.
A little article about dropping water tables.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389×1478309
“I believe that there have been vehicles in Brazil operating on methanol from sugar cane, and thus believe there’s a knowledge base there.Posted by: Vaughn Tolle | July 31, 2007 at 10:56 AM ”
Ethanol has been used as the fule for cars in South America for decades. The funny thing is, the cars used there include ethanol models produced by the Big 3
OK for some of the Christians out there…
Armageddon is supposed to take place. The final battle fought in the middle east. The anti-christ starts the war. Does that make Bush…… NAAAAHHHH
“There’s a Norweigian company that plans to use electric cars to help smooth out peak demands for power–cars hooked to the grid will give back electricity when needed and will charge when demand is low.
Posted by: CapnAmerica | July 31, 2007 at 11:02 AM ”
I just read an article on this; very interesting concept.http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/08/01/100138830/index.htm?cnn=yes
I seriously doubt corn is a net energy loser. Irrigated corn might come close. But most corn in the U.S. is grown without irrigation. Since Iowa yields top 150 bushels, that’s about 375 gallons of ethanol per acre. New tillage methods mean only a few trips though the field each year, and chemicals are applied at the rate of pints per acre.
The big energy use would likey be distilling the mash.
Since a tractor burns about 10 gallons of fuel an hour, and covers 20 to 40 acres an hour, that’s not much fuel per acre that goes into the crop directly.
The production of nitrogen fertilizer, at 100 to 200 pounds per acre might consume four or five gallons.
No you people who argue that ethanol produced from corn is a net energy loser just aren’t thinking.
But it’s stupid for other reasons to produce ethanol from corn because we simply can’t grow the amount of corn targeted for ethanol production.The targets would take almost all the crops produced in the U.S.
OK for some of the Christians out there…
Armageddon is supposed to take place. The final battle fought in the middle east. The anti-christ starts the war. Does that make Bush…… NAAAAHHHH
Posted by: SolDevVB | July 31, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Is that really You? Or are you self-medicated today. And I am not even a Bush fan.
It’s me. Have you heard John Hagee lately? The second coming, we HAVE to align with Israel or burn in hell. We have to nuke Iran NOW.
Just take a little of that idiotic rhetoric and apply it…
Sorry. I don;t listen to John Hagee. Waste of time. And while the second coming may or may not be coming, (waste of time to guess) I can assure you that BUsh is not the Anti-Christ. The Anti-Christ is like much more.
You may consider John Hagee and his message a waste of time, but what he is spewing is scary. The amount of people that listen to and follow him is scary. He isn’t the only one. There are several Christian Evangelists – even in the Catholic faith – that are broadcasting the message to get in bed with Israel and that Iran is Satan.
So tell me, with the religious right trying to drive politics and foreign policy, how is it we differ from al-qaeda and the Taliban?
They do not get to have it both ways! And personally, I am sick and tired of those “Church goers” legislating morality, when they are more immoral than most of us.Posted by: Mike | July 31, 2007 at 09:44 AM
Too bad Mike, but they DO get it both ways. They get to preach their beliefs from the pulpit, and then their members, as citizens of the United States, get to excersize their rights and vote for whatever they believe in.
It’s called democracy. Churches have been where Americans assembled to discuss their villages, their cattle, their slaves, their whiskey, and their politic’s – for over two hundred years.
It’s where the people met, before there was any form of communication other than smoke signals. Even before newspapers!
It’s not something new.
It’s part of the American fabric and way of life.
(I guess I won’t be able to say, “See ya in church!” to you.)
Ethanol is almost a washPosted by: CapnAmerica | July 31, 2007 at 11:09 AM
Can you elaborate on what you mean by the words “almost” and “wash”?
I don’t think it’s even close.
Door King, with all the respect you deserve, you are completely full of crap. In fact, you sound a lot like Russell the round head with that talk. Of course, as always, the devil is in the details.
“Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS.
Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.”
Don’t like those sources?
http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm
http://www.energybulletin.net/5062.html
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/06/05_ethanol.shtml
SO… who you gonna believe? Door king? Or the facts?
So tell me, with the religious right trying to drive politics and foreign policy, how is it we differ from al-qaeda and the Taliban?
Posted by: SolDevVB | July 31, 2007 at 01:06 PM
Hmmm. Anybody seen women being beaten for not wearing a burkha? Anybody seen anybody executed for converting to anything? Anybody seen a several thousand year statute being torn down because it was of a different religions? Anybody hear ANY mainstream Christian, including the RR, call for the advent of female genitalia mutilation? Anybody Hear any mainstream Christian speaker call for the conversion or extermination of people not Christians? Anybody hear of mainstream preachers or evangelists call for strapping bombs on and blowing themselves up in a market full of women and children? Anybody?
The religious right has just as much right to their opinion, and the right to petition for laws as they see fit, as anyone else. It’s called a republican form of government.anyone else.
“Churches have been where Americans assembled to discuss their villages, their cattle, their slaves, their whiskey, and their politic’s – for over two hundred years.”
Isnt it funny? I thought Jesus threw those folks out of the temple, the “money changers” a long time ago.
Who knew the churches were disobeying Jesus when they did those things at church?
It’s called a republican form of government.anyone else.
Posted by: littlejohn | July 31, 2007 at 01:17 PM
Don;t know what the last two words was for or even meant. Must have been part of something I deleted.Getting old I guess
Do you mean funny “ha-ha” or funny “aaaaaawh that’s sad”?
And I never mentioned Jesus, did I?
The discussions inside a church are as varied, no more varied than on all the blogs in America.
You can be righteous all you want about the content of those discussions. I don’t care if they are “more sinful” than those you don’t preach “morality”. I don’t care if they are dirty or not.t I don’t care one way or the other.
But they have their constitutional right to assemble and speak. And they have been doing it since before our nation was born.
What about using hemp as a biomass fuel?
LJ, what do all these “things” have in common?
“Hmmm. Anybody seen women being beaten for not wearing a burkha? Anybody seen anybody executed for converting to anything? Anybody seen a several thousand year statute being torn down because it was of a different religions? Anybody hear ANY mainstream Christian, including the RR, call for the advent of female genitalia mutilation? Anybody Hear any mainstream Christian speaker call for the conversion or extermination of people not Christians? Anybody hear of mainstream preachers or evangelists call for strapping bombs on and blowing themselves up in a market full of women and children? Anybody?
ALL those horrible things come from one religion trying to rule the entire nation by the lights of THEIR religion.
And in THAT matter, the kansas taliban and the real taliban are exactly right. They BOTH seek to dominate non believers and force their religious beliefs on others by making them law.
The american taliban is EXACTLY the same.
Now if you want to argue technique, no, the american taliban has not adopted these bad practices universally. Not yet, anyway.
So I guess we are just arguing about tactics and degree? Not really arguing the point that both the real taliban and the kansas taliban seek the same thing.
They both seek to dominate the state and non-believers by making their religious doctrine secular law.
Oh, but big praise for you for using milder techniques for achieving the same goal.
I guess by those standards, the taliban has achieved the status of republic?
“What about using hemp as a biomass fuel?”
Well first off, hemp growing is illegal, even if the THC content is zero. Reefer madness strikes again.
Second, the “biomass” technology isnt there, yet. Maybe in the future, but ya know, all that biomass has to be trucked to the ethanol plants, and energy is still consumed in production, and energy is still consumed in the shipping and transportation. Still a net energy loser for now.
Third, no matter what raw material is used, ethanol production still results in HUGE water usage. And in this state, with ethanol plants in Russell, which has HISTORIC water shortages, and Dodge and Colby and Liberal and Garden City, where Sunflower will be sucking HUGE amounts of water for electricity…
… we are STILL producing ethanol where no water exists for the processing. How smart is THAT?
And funnier yet? The very places governor leadership and joe harkins and the Kansas Energy Council are TOUTING as ethanol plant locations are ALL water shortage (and grain shortage) areas.
Jesus wept. CRIME wouldnt pay if the kansas government ran it…
Farm girl you are just trying to antagonize any church-goers herein. I probably shouldn’t even bother replying.
Because I know you are not so stupid as to suppose you KNOW my religion, what we do in MY church, and our intentions.
You can’t know, because you haven’t been there – and you can’t read about it in a book.
God Bless you.
Farmgirl while you would tag the entire religious right with your bias you are attempting to force upon them your own morality. If as a Christian I think something is wrong do I not have as much right to speak my mind as you do? Does the entire nation have to agree with your favorite causes or shut up. I am against same sex marriages not because of some moral issue, these will never be mandated by the government by the way, I have objections because of the ramifications of this change in classification of marriage. With hetrosexuals staying away from marriage in droves why do gays want to have this privilege extended to them? I think it is a political stance more than anything.
I see a very large influx of qualified recipents for many programs not the least of which is the lame SS system. I have no problem with a civil union with right of inheritance. They can already designate the person who will make medical decisions for them in the event of an emergency. There are many ways the same rights could be extended without changing the definition of marriage.
Am I wrong to think this way? Are you wrong not to think this way? Probably neither.
Your bias against the RR is every bit as vitriolic as the radical rights. You just think it is ok because it is yours.
By the way I strongly support your position on the waste of water and the draining of our aquifors. We need to do something about this right away. It is a very real threat and I have contacted our state reps about my concerns.
I know of John Hagee… and he IS very scary… Right in there with Pat Robertson, the late Jerry Falwell, and a host of others, known and unknown… The whole idea, for decades, has been to make some attempt, political, economic, religious, or social, to FORCE GOD to send the Second Coming, by something that these preachers encourage people to do NOW… And that is the fallacy… It is fairly clear, that Human kind cannot FORCE GOD to do anything… GOD works on GOD’S own time!! NOT on our time line…
These Christian Fundamentalists WANT Jesus to come, just as do the Moslems WANT their 9th Imam, or whoever, to come… and they both want it for the same reason, ironically… To bring an END to the Great Satan… For the Moslems, thats everybody but them… For the Fundamentalist Christians, its everybody but THEM… I think we used to call it a Mexican Stand-off… but I dont think the Mexicans like us to call it that anymore LOLOL
By the way I have a sister in Russell and last summer they lost most of their landscaping because they had no water to water with. The public was banned from watering and yet industrialisation went on as usual.
KFG, I have noticed the strange choice of locations for the Ethanol plants… I was in Liberal last weekend… And the plant there is nearing the productivity stage… But I know how DRY Liberal is… And I just cant figure out where they intend to get all the water…
You dont suppose there are those bankrolling these plants, who might WANT them to fail??? For some reason??? Cause I dont see how they can possibly produce the amounts of Ethanol projected!!
IF somebody wants these things to fail, who might be the culprits?? Any thoughts??
‘MIT ethanol analysis confirms benefits of biofuels’http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/ethanol.html“Controversy over the benefits of using corn-based ethanol in vehicles has been fueled by studies showing that converting corn into ethanol may use more fossil energy than the energy contained in the ethanol produced. Now a new MIT analysis shows that the energy balance is actually so close that several factors can easily change whether ethanol ends up a net energy winner or loser.”
And research is being done to reduce the energy costs — some examples at,http://www.greencarcongress.com/ethanol/index.html
I know of John Hagee… and he IS very scary… Right in there with Pat Robertson, the late Jerry Falwell, and a host of others, known and unknown… The whole idea, for decades, has been to make some attempt, political, economic, religious, or social, to FORCE GOD to send the Second Coming, by something that these preachers encourage people to do NOW… And that is the fallacy… It is fairly clear, that Human kind cannot FORCE GOD to do anything… GOD works on GOD’S own time!! NOT on our time line…
Posted by: Chas. | July 31, 2007 at 01:40 PM
Please link to any post that John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, etc, have made any reference to FORCING God to do any such thing as the second coming.
“And in THAT matter, the kansas taliban and the real taliban are exactly right. They BOTH seek to dominate non believers and force their religious beliefs on others by making them law.
The american taliban is EXACTLY the same.”
Really. I think you overstate your case. By a lot. But, have it your way. THey could just as easily say that you are trying to FORCE your secular beliefs on them by making them law. Big deal. it is a Republican form of government. Something not known by either Al-Queda or the Taliban. Something I don;t see anybody on the RR espousing chang away from.WHile I disagree with much or most of the Religious right, your righteous indignation fares no better.
Germie, as usual, you are full of crap.
“If as a Christian I think something is wrong do I not have as much right to speak my mind as you do?”
Please post where I EVER said that. You can speak all you want. But when you make others follow YOUR religion’s doctrine by making it secular law, you are IDENTICAL to the taliban. Just using different techniques. Spin away but that is the TRUTH!
“With hetrosexuals staying away from marriage in droves why do gays want to have this privilege extended to them?”
hehehehe. Gee, maybe we are just smarter than the hets? heheheh
But here’s the truth for ya germie. Since you are not gay, you cant speak for gay people. Just like you say I cant speak for or even ABOUT religion because I have never been to your church.
Hypocrit much? Why do you care if we want to be married?
Here’s a thought on the SS thing and saving the system. How about if STRAIGHT married couples give up the right to each other’s social security benefits?
They have no claim on them other than marriage. I agree, that there is more than one way to level the playing field regarding the benefits of marriage.
How about you hets, since you are “runnning away from marriage” give up some of YOUR priveleges and benefits in order to save SS. Isnt that the “christian” thing to do?
And since, as you say, straight people are “running away from marriage” maybe an even BETTER idea is to eliminate the benefits of marriage for everyone?\
I mean, you can do this too, no?
“I have no problem with a civil union with right of inheritance. They can already designate the person who will make medical decisions for them in the event of an emergency.”
So ok, I’ll go with it. You give up YOUR economic benefits of straight marriage, since clearly, according to you, hets are running away from it.
You too can hire lawyers to draw up paperwork for custody and rights of survivorship. You too can BUY disability and life insurance parties for your disability and death benefits.
What do you say germie? Or are the only acceptable solutions yours? Given your distain for our rights of marriage, and given how you DEFEND straight marriage, and the other het’s distain for marriage, I am tempted, like you, to think your hatred of gay marriage is this:
“I think it is a political stance more than anything.
These Christian Fundamentalists WANT Jesus to come, just as do the Moslems WANT their 9th Imam, or whoever, to come… and they both want it for the same reason, ironically… To bring an END to the Great SatanChas
I don’t think most Christians are trying to force their messiah to return. I belonged to one of the most popular religions for many years, and never heard that kind of talk. I think most people are smarter than that. Otherwise, we would have blown ourselves up when gunpowder was first invented.
It’s not like we are sitting around with a bag of popcorn waiting for the rapture. But I don’t want to see another day of the blog filled with “NO MAN KNOWETH” crap. Plz.
I prefer the eat, drink, and be merry verses. As such we debat the religious merits ofmicrobreweries over multinational brewing companies.
I concur with the final sentence of the 2:03 PM post of AmericanWay.
So ok, I’ll go with it. You give up YOUR economic benefits of straight marriage, since clearly, according to you, hets are running away from it. Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
Sorry Farm girl – we are not giving that up either. File that idea in the same circular file as the idea of taxing the church. Majority rule. Democracy is wonderful ain’t it?
Microbreweries are far superior. As multinational breweries spill more beer than microbreweries produce, you have to ask yourself, what WOULD Jesus prefer?
Link title says it all (pay attention, also, to the links at the bottom of the piece).
http://www.boingboing.net/2007/07/30/tsas_gonna_love_this.html
“Farmgirl while you would tag the entire religious right with your bias you are attempting to force upon them your own morality.”
HOW in the wide wide world of sports do you figure I am imposing “my morality” on you? How in the hell do you think that?
If you dont want to marry anyone of the same sex, DONT! NO ONE is advocating that you engage in same sex marriage. Dont believe in it? Dont do it! I totally back that. Do you think I am proposing a law that FORCES people into same sex marriage. Jesus WEPT! Get a grip.
And LJ? Same goes for you!
“THey could just as easily say that you are trying to FORCE your secular beliefs on them by making them law.”
Uh, no. That is a blatant lie. Dont want to marry another man? Then dont. But I do want to marry my woman. How is THAT forcing my beliefs on you.
But please, make the “I dont want the state to sanction it by making it legal”. Go on. I dare ya.
‘Cause that is JUST what the taliban says too. They dont want the “state” to “sanction” behaviors that THEIR religion forbids.
Told ya so. You christians are just like them, save for the “milder” techniques. We really are quibbling about degree. You have yet to prove anything different. Either of you.
Farmie show me where I said you didn’t have the right to critize religion. I said I had as much right to voice my opinion as you and if those who share my opinion outnumber those who oppose it maybe it will become a law.
That’s the way a republic works afterall. If you want to change the system then work to change it. But don’t try to deny me the right to disagree with you. It ain’t going to happen. So just bash away at Christians afterall that is your right and we are told to turn the other cheek.
“WHile I disagree with much or most of the Religious right, your righteous indignation fares no better.”
heheheh. I call BULLSHIT on that too. WHEN have you heard me advocate any law to restrict your right to worship? Or exist?
Now children, let’s list all the times you taliban christians have advocated the passage of laws to restrict MY right to marriage and the benefits thereof?
Oh, yeah, but I am just like the christian taliban. Keep spinning guys. It doesnt make it true.
I have a big problem with microbreweries:
1. There are too many of them2. I can’t hold that much beer
I pray that God will take one bottle, and pass it around like multiplying fish: Go to the Great American Beer Festival in Denver.
http://www.beertown.org/
I have prayed for my healthcare plan to fund surgery to place a plug in my belly button, so I can just set my beer on my belly and drink, and not have to stop talking.
“But don’t try to deny me the right to disagree with you”Posted by: ksgrm | July 31, 2007 at 02:20 PM
What about equality. What makes Farmie and her woman any less of a marriage worthy couple than a hetero couple?
I pray that God will take one bottle, and pass it around like multiplying fish:
Posted by: GreatAmericanBeerFestival | July 31, 2007 at 02:22 PM
Talk about backwash !!!!
Ksfarmgrrl-
cut the bullshit. You know that I am in favor of the state allowing for gay marriages. You and I have discussed it many times. You are so damned biased about anybody that claims to be a christian that you refuse to face the reality that fewer christians give ad damn about your cause than you think. And yeah, if they are property owners, or if they are business owners, then, regardless of wether they wish to or not, they have to recognize your marriage and behavior, forcing them to pay money for what they don;t believe in. Not in taxes, but either by direct subsidy in insurance, or by renting/leasing etc. So yeah, you are forcing your beliefs on someone else. ANd by the way, but them not wanting gay marriage, doesn;t force you to marry a man, either. Doesn;t force you to do a damn thing.But as I said, and you know, I believe the state should sanction gay marriages. I have stated so here, and to my representatives, and you damn well know it. Once again, you misrepresent my views. stop it.
Microbreweries are far superior. As multinational breweries spill more beer than microbreweries produce, you have to ask yourself, what WOULD Jesus prefer?
Posted by: SolDevVB | July 31, 2007 at 02:13 PM
Does the great republican leader, Ron Paul support beer?
http://www.ronpaul2008.com/
As multinational breweries spill more beer than microbreweries produce, you have to ask yourself, what WOULD Jesus prefer?
Jesus was a wine drinker. I will, however, take a beer anyday
BBQ, Beer + Calling Iowa
http://ronpaul.meetup.com/533/calendar/6082956/
Well it would apear so. And as he is a Texan, I have to assume the BBQ is brisket. And the beer Miller Lite (National Beer of Texas)
Is the word, “beer” anywhere in the bible? I read they had beer in those days.
I suppose the wine lobby prevailed, OSHA got em, or someone taxed the brewers to death.
“Farmie show me where I said you didn’t have the right to critize religion.”
OK
“Does the entire nation have to agree with your favorite causes or shut up.”
Germie, the TYRANNY of the majority was provided for in the constiution by protection of the rights of MINORITY populations.
Dont forget, a MAJORITY of americans would NOT approve the bill of rights today. Should we delete them from the constitution? I mean, with majority rules and all.
A MAJORITY would still vote interracial marriage to be illegal. Fortunately the courts did not agree. More activist judges? Or judges protecting the rights of minorities.
And if, in future generations, we get a majority to REPEAL the bill of rights, religion would have no protections. So, then if the MAJORITY votes to ABOLISH all churches and the practice of religion…
…will that be ok with you too germie? I mean, since majority rules. You think it cant happen?
heheheheheheehehSo… given the trends among young to support gay marriage, the majority will change. I cant wait.
And I STILL dont have an answer from you about abolishing the benefits of heterosexual marriage as a way to save SS.
And the beer Miller Lite (National Beer of Texas)
Posted by: SolDevVB | July 31, 2007 at 02:31 PM
How dare you! Shiners Bock rules deep in the heart of Texas.
“So ok, I’ll go with it. You give up YOUR economic benefits of straight marriage, since clearly, according to you, hets are running away from it. Posted by: ksfarmgrrl
Sorry Farm girl – we are not giving that up either. File that idea in the same circular file as the idea of taxing the church. Majority rule. Democracy is wonderful ain’t it?
Posted by: RR | July 31, 2007 at 02:12 PM
GEE, what a HUGE surprise. I rest my case.
AmericanWay has been lead astray. Miler Lite, national beer of TEXAS. If its not a Miller, it better DAMN well be a Lone Star.
So there are rights as heterosexuals. No rights for homosexuals. How about rights for Americans and leave it at that?
You want special “rights” for same sex marriages? Why is that a right? Why does everything have to be “fair” in America? I find it terribly Unfair that medicine has decided that red wine is good for you (or is it white wine now). Why not beer? And chocolate is good for you. Why not buttered popcorn? So my better half can ride me about drinking my beer, while she sips her wine and eats her strawberries covered in chocolate. NOW THAT AIN’T FAIR!
Anything else, you MUST be a tourist, which is fine – helps us spot you easier ;->
LJ, I’m wondering if this is really you today.
“You are so damned biased about anybody that claims to be a christian that you refuse to face the reality that fewer christians give ad damn about your cause than you think.”
Ok, you are right. ONLY 75% percent of them do in Kansas.
“And yeah, if they are property owners, or if they are business owners, then, regardless of wether they wish to or not, they have to recognize your marriage and behavior, forcing them to pay money for what they don;t believe in.”
Well hell, LJ. By YOUR logic, making churches tax exempt forces me to recognize them, whether they want to or not, and forces ME to pay money for what I dont believe in.
I dont believe in WAR either. So can I deduct that amount from my taxes? Or the amount I pay so churches DONT have to pay taxes?
“Not in taxes, but either by direct subsidy in insurance, or by renting/leasing etc.”
Well LJ, I am FORCED to rent to christians and I PAY the subsidy in insurance for STRAIGHT marriage. But that’s ok? I see. If equality costs, then we should scrap it?
Ok, then let’s scrap heterosexual marriage too.
And given your arguments today and above, I should agree to THIS?”Once again, you misrepresent my views. stop it.”
hehehehehheh. No LJ, I think I have represented your views quite well. It’s YOU having the cognative dissonence.
Ksgrm & littlejohn,
Seriously, why is there a double standard? An American citizen wants to marry another American citizen. What other distinctions should be drawn?
GEE, what a HUGE surprise. I rest my case.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 31, 2007 at 02:35 PM
You might as well, cause you sure as heck aren’t going to win if the people vote. Majority rules.Unless you can elect a president to appoint judges who will have compassion for social unjustice, you might as well forget it.
American Way, you are just plain INSANE as well as funny.
“You want special “rights” for same sex marriages?
WTF? What “special rights” am I asking for? I just want the same rights you have. Nothing “special” about it.
“Why does everything have to be “fair” in America?”
heheheheh. Hee hee hee. you are NUTS!
Everything in America is supposed to be “fair” with LEGAL RIGHTS because there is this little thing called the constitution!
It guarantees equal protection under the law. But of course, you would know nothing about that.
I think it is you straight folks who want SPECIAL marriage rights for yourselves, and no one else who is NOT straight.
Why do you think STRAIGHT marriage deserves special rights?
Just keep posting. You make my case FAR better than I ever could.
Solly, I agree about having rights for ALL americans.
So… if the straights wont acknowledge OUR rights, the only way for equal rights for ALL americans is for the hets to give up their “special” rights.
But I dont see that happening, as is evidenced here. So then that only leaves giving us OUR rights in order for ALL americans to have equal rights.
Ya pays yer money and ya makes yer choices. Too bad the american talibaners refuse to make the right choice, even by their own priciples.
Just keep posting. You make my case FAR better than I ever could.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 31, 2007 at 02:47 PM
Nope. I’m done. The good guys don’t want me and the enemy is afraid I’ll take over.
It’s Shriner Bock time!!!!!(Lone Star is to Texas as Grainbelt is to Wisconsin)
I have already stated my having no difficulty with removing the tax exempt status of churches on another thread. I have already stated my support for gay marriage. i have already stated, previously, my support for your in particular, ksfarmgrrl, in your experience in Wakeeney and why you were fired. I have stated these things not just today, but many times before. Therefore, I can only assume that you are on my case because I profess to be a christian. Fine. Be honest about, you don;t give a damn about my opinions, whether or not they agree with you. You just want to make me a member of the Taliban. Fine. Sorry I wasted your precious fng time agreeing with you
Blacks can only marry blacks and Hispanics. Hispanics can only marry on Sundays. The third child of a black Hispanic union by default gives up his/her citizenship.
If a white marries a black or Hispanic his/her tax rate increases by 7%. If a second generation biracial child marries a non-white, his/her tax rate increases by 14%.
So, if we bring race into this, everyone gets the eebie geebies. But sexual orientation — ahhhhh throw them to the wolves.
Now you’re learning LJ.
KFG only gives a crap about what KFG gives a crap about.
She’ll turn on you quicker than a rabid skunk.
Is it not a wonder why her issues never get anywhere – all that arm flailing and …. you rhetoric.
Is child love a sexual preference?Animal love?
Damnit. That is the second time samalvado got me. have to pay more attention to the thread date.
Child love – statutory rape – molestation – illegal.
Animal love – bestiality – illegal
Homosexuality – legal.
But please do try again.
“Unless you can elect a president to appoint judges who will have compassion for social unjustice, you might as well forget it.”
Ya, that would be just TERRIBLE wouldnt it? Appointing judges who have “compassion for social unjustice”.
So.. back to my point, if we get a majority to BAN christianity, that will be ok with you? If we make constitutional amendments that forbid CHRISTIANS to marry….
….I guess that will be ok as long as we have a majority?
Just keep thinking it wont happen…
Try this solly.
Animal love = not between CONSENTING ADULTS
child love = not betwen CONSENTING ADULTS
Gay marriage IS between CONSENTING ADULTS.
Big difference except to the terminally stupid.
lol
“I have already stated my having no difficulty with removing the tax exempt status of churches on another thread. I have already stated my support for gay marriage. i have already stated, previously, my support for your in particular, ksfarmgrrl, in your experience in Wakeeney and why you were fired.”
Yes LJ, I do know that. Which is why I questioned if it was really you posting those things DEFENDING bigotry. DEFENDING christians who are bigots. And making flimsy arguments to support their “right” to bigotry and making their religion the right of the land.
That is why I said cognitive dissonance. How can you believe one thing, and then DEFEND people who’s actions fly in the face of those beliefs.
I am against bigots, not christians. If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, why are you defending the religious bigots who FORCE us to live by their beliefs?
Oh, and AW? A MAJORITY of americans would vote FOR impeachment of bush/cheney today.
I say bring it. MAJORITY RULES!!!!!
… and a MAJORITY of americans voted to make Al Gore president in 2000. I see how well your “majority rules” thingy worked then. If christians really believed so strongly in majority rules, they would be PUSHING bush to resign, not defending him to the death.
You want majority rule when it suits you. And you dont when it doesnt. I guess that is clear to everyone except the folks drinking kookaide made from holy water.
I’m still a Christian Farmie, I just don’t believe in segregation of American Citizen’s rights. An American is an American and should be afforded the same rights. So I guess that makes me a kookaide drinker?
That is why I said cognitive dissonance. How can you believe one thing, and then DEFEND people who’s actions fly in the face of those beliefs.
I am defending not defending their beliefs, but their right to have them, and givingg you the reality of what you speak. And I defend their constitutionally given ability to address their beliefs and concersn to their representatives and make law. just as I defend yours. Just as I defend the KKK, the socialist party, or whatever. Regardless of the source of their beliefs, Whether Koran, the Bagdad Vita (sp), MeinKemp, or from the purple frog sitting on their orange lily pad, has that same right. You want to shut up a portion of the populaiton, because they disagree with your lifestyle. You call them Taliban,they call you freak. Same difference. No tolerance.—————————
I am against bigots, not christians.
I have yet to see any evidence of that.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 31, 2007 at 03:13 PM
If christians really believed so “strongly in majority rules, they would be PUSHING bush to resign, not defending him to the death”
Once again, your wide paint brush is inappropriate.There are huge amounts of Christians who despise Bush.
“So I guess that makes me a kookaide drinker?”
Solly you know better. Please post where I said ALL christians are talibaners or drink the kookaide.
LJ,I’ll take the hit on this one. I am the one who related Hagee to the Taliban. With Hagee preaching ‘Nuke Iran Now’ and with the followers he has, it seemed a no brainer. Hagee is like the Taliban. He claims a faith of love and peace then preaches nuclear war. Hypocrite.
As for Christians who despise Bush, count me in.
“You want to shut up a portion of the populaiton, because they disagree with your lifestyle.”
Dammnit LJ, post where I said anything close to that.
Post where I said they didnt have a right to believe what they believe. That meme is old and tired and proven false. Post where I have tried to shut them up.
They do NOT have the right to force me to live my life by THEIR beliefs.
“And yeah, if they are property owners, or if they are business owners, then, regardless of wether they wish to or not, they have to recognize your marriage and behavior, forcing them to pay money for what they don;t believe in.”
LJ, with all due respect, with that post you certainly DID defend their belief, not their right to hold it.
I could post other examples. If you just said they had a right to believe in their churches whatever they believe, I would have agreed.
But you didnt. You defended the bigotry itself. Sorry if the shoe fits.
Solly, I was thinking last night about all this. It happens every time, like clockwork, when there are postings about “christians” and “christianity”.
You all have a hissy stompin’ FIT when someone criticizes christians or christianity. You would fight to the DEATH to protect your “religion”. You have a fit when someone complains about your religion, WTF would you do if someone occupied your country to SNUFF OUT the practice of your beliefs?
And yet? You have NO PROBLEM complaining about Islam. You have no PROBLEM complaining about “radical” elements within the religion. You have no problem sending TROOPS to keep the RELIGIOUS peace in the middle east.
Gee. Go figure that THEY dont like that either.
And if you are going to follow with a post about how christians dont do any beheading, remember, then you are only talking about degree, not real difference in your religions.
Think about what the whiney, poor persecuted majority CHRISTIANS would do if the Islamists came here and did to you what america did to them.
If you have this big a fit over legit criticism, I wonder how many beheadings the christians would perform on an invading army intent on dominating their religious beliefs?
Oh and dont forget. They had elections in Lebannon and Palestine too. They voted in folks we dont like. Folks who dont like christians either. But majority rules, right? If those folks vote to KILL christians, majority rules, right.
Democracy. Aint it wonderful? (big eye roll)
Ksfarmgrrl-Fine., I don;t give a damn. Count me in with the Taliban. Make me a member of AL Queada. Call me a bigot.
I still support gay marriage. I still support elimination of hate crimes legislation, and I still support the removal of tax free status for all organizations. I still support the Constitution. I still support my country, my state, and my local government. I support my fellow citizens to petition the government for whatever they feel is right, though I may not support their position. You can do whatever the hell you like
“You can do whatever the hell you like”
Uh, no, LJ, I cant. SEVENTY FIVE percent of kansas voters made sure of that in 2005. With the full support of their churches and ministers like terry, joe and fred.
With the full support of their churches and ministers like terry, joe and fred.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | July 31, 2007 at 03:44 PM
Damn all christians to hell. How dare they express their own beliefs. They are imposing their own will on everyone else.
Farmie,
I’ve taken a long hard look at this as well. You remember when I first started here there wasn’t a stronger Bush/Iraq war supporter. I was uninformed and lead by the nose.
I researched, listened, and learned. 9/11 happened because of exactly what you described. When Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was not our place to intervene. The UN should have handled that sans our support. We went, and we stayed. We’ve had our fingers in Mid-East politics for decades. So, you get 9/11. Should have told us to keep our fingers in our OWN damn pies. But it didn’t and we continue to make the same mistakes we did in the past. Billion dollar arms deals? WTF? Arm the people that are killing our troops. Atta boy Bush. Atta boy. Worked out real well with Afghanistan and Iraq didn’t it? So let’s do it again.
So, yeah. We f’ed it up and got our nose bloodied. We shouldn’t have been over there to begin with. I don’t agree with the tactics used by radical islamists, but I guess that is how they fight.
So, get out of Iraq. Get out of Afghanistan. Get off of ANY soil that is not American. Pull out of the UN. Pull out of the WTO. Establish non-binding relationships with foreign countries. Be Americans the forefathers intended.
The core of Christian faith is good. Love, forgiveness and tolerance. Not everyone practices that faith anymore. I do. That’s why I don’t claim a ‘flavor’ of Christianity because they are all politicized. But I do still believe in the faith.
KFG- You might as well drop these guys from your “A” Xmas card list- I don’t think they want in your fan club!
Hard to figure, huh?
G
I thought the only people who drank Bock beer had thick necks and were named Gunther.
Nope, Shiner Bock is waaaaay more popular than lone star or pearl beer, which used to carry the day.
Too many yuppies from California moving into Texas. :)
Ahh, Pearl; I’d darned near forgotten about that delicacy.
Wanted: volunteers to help me help Colby College. As I may have previously posted, Colby has a civilized program whereby one or two times a month, it allows those students of age to order, with dinner, in a special room off one of the main dining halls, a glass of wine or a beer. As Colby, as part of its environmental concerns, likes to buy locally, and as the state of Maine apparently has multiple microbreweries, I have concluded it needs independent consultants to determine which of the local products it should offer the discriminating student. So, it is my plan to volunteer, along with any others who so desire, to test the products of the various microbreweries such that the college may make wise decisions. Anyone in? :-)
The program, by the way, was started on student initiative. A substantial number of students there do a semester during, or their entire, Junior year studying abroad (generally Europe), and, as such, become accustomed to being able to have a glass of wine, etc., with dinner. The college recognized that, and, also in hopes of attacking in a responsible manner some of the alcohol abuse on campus, determined that a bit of supervised consumption might be of assistance. Thus, the program. BTW, the cost of the wine or beer is additional to the cost of the meal.
Interesting fallout from the subprime lender mess:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/31/news/companies/american_home.reut/index.htm?postversion=2007073115
The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office provided an analysis for long-term war costs. It estimated that if troops in Iraq and Afghanistan were reduced to 75,000 over the next five years and stayed at that level through 2017, it would cost the U.S. Treasury $845 billion over the 10-year period.
Shiner beer tasted like panther piss.
Pearl was the National Beer of Texas back in the day.
Although, the LoneStar Beer Longnecks were fairly popular.
SHINER BOCK RULES TEXAS… Lone Star runs a close Second!! LOL I learned that when I lived in Houston LOL
The other thing I learned in Houston, was not to say the word “sooner” above a whisper!! LOL
“I said I had as much right to voice my opinion as you and if those who share my opinion outnumber those who oppose it maybe it will become a law.”Ksgrm
====================
What IF it was slavery?? Or the death penalty for abortion doctors?? What IF the majority wanted those things?? Would you still be for majority rule?? What IF the men passed a law that females could no longer vote?? and it passed by a majority??
These are the kind of questions that need to be asked, when you demand that majority rule… That’s WHY we have a representative Republic… or at least one of the MAJOR reasons…
I think a big part of ksfarmgrrl’s frustration over gay marriage comes from the fact that there is no reason other than religious ones to prevent it. Therefore, the state is allowing various religious groups to set public policy.
Have any of you wondered if just MAYBE some of the strong opposition to the Casino issue here in Wichita/Sedgwick County MIGHT be coming from down at Southwind Casino??? I mean, they would lose a LOT of revenue!!
I do believe you hit the nail on the head Brian… I have argued that point for years now!!
If there was a huge shift in demographics in the USA and the Muslim faith was the most common would ‘majority rule’ still hold true? Perhaps taking a second wife would be allowed – majority rule, right?
“Majority rule. Democracy is wonderful ain’t it?Posted by: RR | July 31, 2007 at 02:12 PM “
I have no problem with gay marriage, because I firmly believe in the Bill of Rights and do not think legislation should be based on solely religious ideals, majority or not.
I am open minded, however, and would seriously entertain any non-religious arguements against gay marriage. I have never heard any valid ones, though.
“I have never heard any valid ones, though.
Posted by: brian | July 31, 2007 at 06:22 PM ”
And by ‘valid ones,’ I definitely include agruments against gay marriage not based on information from religious groups whose goal is to prevent gay marriage.
Marriage is a social institutional contract between a couple. As it now sits legally, that contract is to merge the responsibility and assets of two individuals into one unified unit known as a family (with or without kids).
This has been going on in all societies from the beginning of civilization. It was most likely created to control the behavior of men. Because the animals that we are, if there wasn’t anything that binded families together through written, oral or any other understandable and acceptable agreement, men would go around everywhere trying to spread his seed to any woman he can and not care too much about the offspring that he produces.
While religion plays a big role in many societies when it comes to the tradition of marriage, in this day of age the community standards has marriage only as that of a contract between a man and a woman. The community has not accept as a binding legal marriage that of polygamy, homosexuals or animals and inanimate objects.
While the reasons for the community to not accept any other forms of marriage partnership is deeply rooted in tradition and religion, it may not be a good enough reason for some, but the majority of the community it is a good enough reason, and so being it is illegal or not recognized by government. For the majority of the community, they feel that any other marriage partnership appeals only to prurient interest. And so it is as of now, until the majority of the community changes their minds.
Oil Barrel prices spike to an all time high!
Hmmm, someone uses that phrase “Just off the Press” quite a bit.
I wonder who that could be. :)
lmao!
Clark Kent?
For the record:
Lone Star was “the National Beer of Texas,” back when the ad campaigns were all about Lone Star trucks being attacked by giant armadillos.
Pearl was pretty bad unless accompanied by a big ol’ sloppy plate of greasy Tex-Mex food… especially for breakfast.
As far as I remember, Lone Star was the first to popularize the term “long necks.”
Shiner Bock is okay dark beer if you like dark beer.
If you eat at a mom & pop Cajun place near Beaumont, you don’t care about the brand of beer so long as it’s wet and cold and plentiful.
Around San Antone, you’ll order Doe Equis, but only if you can pronounce it correctly, otherwise you’ll be mugged in the parking lot.
In Amarillo, the beer of choice is Coors, pronounced “cores.” (You know how to get to Amarillo, don’t you? Drive shouth ’til you smell it and drive west ’til you step in it.
Compared to Amarillo, Wichita is friggin’ Vegas.
LMAO Phillip, Crowson and Walters!!!
Brownback Girl Video! ROFLMAO…
Check it out folks, rip roaring funny video by WE folks. :)
http://media.kansas.com/static/video/brownback-girl/
That was awesome. :D
That needs to go on YouTube right away.
It was almost frightening, but it’s funny none-the-less.
“assets of two individuals into one unified unit known as a family (with or without kids).
This has been going on in all societies from the beginning of civilization. It was most likely created to control the behavior of men.”– Joe Williams –
========================
That is without a doubt one of the most factually inaccurate statements about marriage in the history of civilization, I have ever seen…. Not only is monogamous marriage relatively NEW in world history, it is pretty much a Western thing as well…
Of course, the Mormons only gave up on polygamy when they wanted statehood for Utah, and Congress wouldnt give it to them, as long as they had polygamy…
And in fact, the Bible for the most part, does NOT forbid the taking of more than one wife, except where Paul states that a Bishop or Deacon should be the husband of only one wife…
The entire idea of opposing Gay Marriages, is flat out discriminatory… And I think it is totally disingenious for those who oppose it, to for some strange reason, bring marriage to animals, and a whole bunch of other crap that is already understood as being illegal!!
I have never yet seen ONE legitimate LEGAL reason why two people of the same sex should not be allowed to marry!! Not ONE reason… The majority of objections are based on religious reasons, because for some crazy reason, religious heterosexuals seem threatened by marriage of same sex couples… How can a same sex marriage possibly threaten heterosexual marriage??? It has nothing to do with it!! Sort of like saying that the railroad has an adverse effect on steam ship travel!!
“deeply rooted in tradition and religion, it may not be a good enough reason for some, but the majority of the community it is a good enough reason, and so being it is illegal or not recognized by government.Posted by: Joe Williams | July 31, 2007 at 06:52 PM ”
The same could have been said about slavery, interracial marriage, public floggings, the stocks (not NYSE type stocks), ostracism, stopping schoolin’ at the 8th grade so kids could work on the farm, etc etc
I guess I should have added ‘tradition’ to my notation of not valid reasons to prevent homosexual marriage.
FYI, polygamy was more common than monogamy before the Christian religion influence of the middle ages.(There are studies to back this up, I will try to find the link)
That is exactly right Brian… I dont think anybody can argue that point with any seriousness… link or no link!!
Brian, keep in mind that the Christian influence in the Middle Ages, only covered a relatively small part of the geographic surface of the planet… Polygamy was more dominant even during the Middle Ages, outside of Europe…
Chas! You have no idea what you are talking about.
I’m not talking about the dawn of human time. I said civilization. There is a difference. Go back to any historical culture, there is a system and understanding of marriage. From ancient Egypt, Roman and etc, till today.
The only thing you are right about that homosexual marriage is discriminatory. Same as misagination was and polygamy.
Legal? It’s illegal in practically every state in the USA for homosexuals to be married. So there is your LEGAL reason why people of the same sex cannot marry. Prove to me a legal reason how people of the same sex can get married in the State of Kansas?
I’m not saying it’s right! But it is the law that homosexual marriages are not recognized in practically every state.
I don’t care if homosexuals marry. I also think that adults should be allowed to have polygamy marriages. The only line I do not agree with is children getting married, because children cannot make rational decisions on their life because they are dependent on adults.
Again! My argument is that the community decided to not allow the legal recognition of homosexual marriage. Yes! It’s based on religious and traditional norms, but the majority believes and wants the government to not recognize homosexual and polygamy marriages. It may not be right and it is discriminatory, but that is the community environment we live in now.
Change the law or fight it in court. Misagination was the norm in the Democratic controlled South , until the Supreme Court strike it down based on the 14th Amendment. The same can apply to both polygamy and homosexual marriages, but it has yet to get up to the Supreme Court.
I used to support Gay Rights until the two Kansas Gay Nuts convinced me otherwise. I know how they feel about Christians, so I guess the feeling is mutual. I tried to be accepting, but usually got the “troll” treatment and etc. That’s one bridge I glad I burned.
I don’t understand people like Phelps though. That is an extreme form of hatred disguised under pseudo religious actions.
From what I’ve heard and read, it’s the fear of slippery slope moral decline. One foot in the door type of thing.
There will be no love offering in the plate for Chas tonight. :)
Well Republican. Under freedom of speech, anybody can criticize religion. Not one group is free from criticisms, nor can they stop it. Although Leftist would love to make it a crime to speak against them, that is why I find their ideology so dangerous.
I don’t care if Christians preach, practice, worship or whatever. They can do whatever they like. I do not want to see one law that forbids Christians from saying and doing what they want. But you must accept the fact that I also don’t want to see one law that forbids anybody to say anything bad, derogatory or critical about a religious faith. Two-way street brotha.
The Phelps (registered Democrats) can say and protest all they want.
Joe, I swear ou didnt even read what I posted, so I will not make any comment… I will simply stand on what I posted before… and I DID say civilization…. Monogamous marriage is the newcomer… All you have to do is check a few history books… it is very clear… I said show me a LEGAL reason to make gay marriage against the law… I didnt say it was available… PLEASE read!!!
is yourstrange word misagination supposed to mean inter-racial marriage??? That isnt the right word… but I THINK thats what you mean…
So, if the community decides that Red Hair is a reason to discriminate, does that make it OK, because the community has decided???
Republican, many people hear Christians preaching one thing, and then observe them doing something opposite, or at least a bit sideways from what they preach soooo publicly!! I think that is why so many have come to not trust Christians, and the Church, and the narrow minded theology that so often accompanies it…
I gave you the reason Chas! Read my post!
My statement about marriage in civilization has nothing to do with the current western culture of monogamy marriage. I said the act of marriage!
========================”assets of two individuals into one unified unit known as a family (with or without kids).
This has been going on in all societies from the beginning of civilization. It was most likely created to control the behavior of men.”– Joe Williams –
========================
Clarification on my part! I should have said the assets of individuals into a family unit.
You said that it was inaccurate. It wasn’t. I was merely speaking on the history of marriage. You made it as that the history of marriage didn’t exist until recent western civilization culture. And that western culture is everything from the past up till now. That is inaccurate.
Again! The current community standard, as it sits, has homosexual marriages as illegal or not recognized by the state. I didn’t say it was like that since the beginning of civilization. Read my post.
I dontknow what planet you are on, but I said NO such thing!! Getyour reading glasses checked!!
Joe, what I said was that monogamous marriage (one man, one woman) is relatively new on the scene… The majority of the world had polygamy… And, actually, in ancient times, the male had to virtually BUY the wife from her father(dowry)…
The ancient Egyptians and other ancient cultures had marriage… but it was not based on religious values as we know them — It was a means of increasing the populace of society, and to the richest, went the most wives… It was a very male dominant world — Much more than now…
Your right! I didn’t spell check the word! My bad! Spelled Checked it! Miscegenation replaces my spelling error.
Again Chas! No! It doesn’t make it right to discriminate. But it’s the law until it’s changed or interpreted by the courts as not constitutional.
Read my post! Again! I will say that homosexual and polygamy marriages should be allowed and recognized as legal binding contracts between individuals.
But until the laws are changes or interpreted and overturned, it’s illegal in most states for homosexuals to marry.
Again! Question to you! What legal right do you have to marry in the State of Kansas? At this moment, you don’t.
I would highly recommend Joseph Campbell’s Power of Myth, and other of his writings… He is one of the most noted historians of ancient myth, legend, and civilization… Very powerful writer…
Well, I have a legal right to marry in Kansas… I am not Gay… What I am telling you is this: NAME ME ONE GOOD LEGAL REASON WHY SAME SEX MARRIAGE SHOULD BE ILLEGAL??? I am NOT saying that it is legal!!!
And I am not talking about the fact that the law books now make it illegal… I am asking you or anybody to name ONE GOOD LEGAL REASON why it is illegal!!
Get it???
In other words, it should NOT be illegal!! Maybe that will help you see what I am saying…
And further, I am also saying that the only reason that it is illegal now, is because of pressure from religious groups who seem to feel threatened by it…
As far as polygamy, I dont have a problem with it, but having been married more than once, I cant think of many reasons why any man would want more than one of them at a time ROFL!!!
READING GLASSES ON:
“assets of two individuals into one unified unit known as a family (with or without kids).
This has been going on in all societies from the beginning of civilization. It was most likely created to control the behavior of men.”– Joe Williams –
========================
That is without a doubt one of the most factually inaccurate statements about marriage in the history of civilization, I have ever seen…. Not only is monogamous marriage relatively NEW in world history, it is pretty much a Western thing as well…
Posted by: Chas. | July 31, 2007 at 09:47 PM
Tell me Chas! Were was I wrong!
Re-read my post at: Posted by: Joe Williams | July 31, 2007 at 06:52 PM
Learn more about the history of marriage here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage
One of the best descriptions of the system of marriage we now have in this country, is “serial monogamy” we allow more than one spouse… but just one at a time LOL
Come now, Wikipedia is a very shallow source on the history of marriage…. Try Joseph Campbell.. he is a real heavy hitter… known world wide for his expertise…
I did give you the freaking reason Chas!
I said the community standards of the majority of the population has determined that homosexual marriages should be illegal or not recognized by the government.
The community standards in meaning that that freakin called for and voted into law. They did it legally. It might not be right and it should be overturned by the courts, but that is the LEGAL reason why that homosexuals cannot marry.
You can make the same question about anything, but the community says so, until it’s overturned.
I can say: “GIVE ME ONE GOOD LEGAL REASON WHY GOVERNMENT TAXES INDIVIDUALS FOR THEIR WAGES AND LABOR” Give me one good legal reason why they can?
What’s your response Chas?
And my bad about your situation. I don’t know you very well and I only started to read that one post about your homosexual marriage question. Assuming you are and wanting to get married.
Joseph Campbell is interesting! Although I haven’t read any of this books, I did watch a lengthy interview that he did back before he died. It was a multi-series DVD set.
But Joseph Campbell isn’t a marriage or history of marriage expert. His expertise and life’s work is mythology.
Looks to me like we could have had a sound SS if the money spent, and to be spent (wasted) in Iraq had been used instead to fund SS.Guess it’s just a question of priorities.
Joe, I said that same sex marriage is currently illegal in most states… But that doesnt mean there is a GOOD LEGAL REASON for making it illegal…
Taxes of whatever kind, enable the government to operate… That has been the case in nearly all cultures, in one way or another…
Note Wikipedia reference:
“In 2004, the American Anthropological Association released this statement:[24]
The results of more than a century of anthropological research on households, kinship relationships, and families, across cultures and through time, provide no support whatsoever for the view that either civilization or viable social orders depend upon marriage as an exclusively heterosexual institution.
Rather, anthropological research supports the conclusion that a vast array of family types, including families built upon same-sex partnerships, can contribute to stable and humane societies.”
War in Irag vs a stable retirement for a generation of Americans.
Yep, priorities.Thanks W!
Ummm One of Campbell’s doctorates was in History of Marriage and Family, and he taught numerous courses in that field before he died… He became extremely popular in his works on Myth, and Legend… many of which are centered on Marriage and Family customs, and histories…
I think a court that were to review the Constitutionality of anti-gay marriage laws would have no choice but to find them contrary to the spirit of our Bill of Rights freedoms.That is, a fair, unbiased, not politically motivated court that weighed their decision on the letter and spirit of the Constitution.
For example, in the mythology surrounding Hercules, the nature of Family, Inheritance, Kinship, parenthood, etc., are all key ingredients to understanding the mythology of the Herculean legends..
Thanks Brian, THATS what I am trying to say here… WTG!!!
Chas,Similar to how the nature of society, writing styles, and culture are key to understanding the Bible.
yes, similar…
“I tried to be accepting, but usually got the “troll” treatment and etc.”
Posted by: Republican | July 31, 2007 at 10:18 PM
You’ve posted lies, nit-picked other posts, stole J M Walker’s nic, switched nics multiple times, etc.
Instead of attacking others, you should acknowledge your personal responsibilty for behaving like a troll.
I think I hear my bed calling me… nite everybody!!
Good nite, good luck, and God bless, who/whatever you conceive of God to be!!
cosmos, the WE Blog’s most prolific whiner.
Kansas, the WE Blog’s most prolific liar, nic switcher/stealer.
No credibility.
KS farm girl:
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland.
that’s about 3000 gallons of ethanol; 3000 x 20 mpg = 60,000 miles. Average auto use in this country is closer to 15,000. Someone is full of crap, and I don’t think it’s me, ksfarmgal. I admit, ethanol is not efficient, but to say to produce it requires more energy that is yielded is absurd, even if you count the energy required to produce the tractor to farm the corn, and the tanker to haul it to the ethanol plant.
Now if you are talking corn irrigated from deep wells, as in western kansas, you’re right. But most corn is produced from rainfall or from riparian aquifers, which are shallow.
And don’t get so damned crazy just because someone has a different point of view. I’ve produced about 10 million bushels of corn in my life and I actually KNOW what the energy imputs are.
The energy equations dealing with ethanol production are not political equations; they’re math.
Door King.
OK, you’ve done well growing the corn and getting it to the refinery. Now this is where ethanol gets expensive. The energy to heat the corn and the water needed to produce the ethanol is the issue. Combine that with ethanol not producing as much energy as gasoline (about 25% less energy) requires more ethanol to be burned than gas.
Seems pretty fruitless.
Now count all the downstream costs associated with grain being diverted to ethanol. You get nailed every which way you turn when it comes to ethanol.