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Open thread 7/9
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted July 9, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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108 Comments
Do any of you work for Spirit that used to work for Boeing? I am wondering how different the treatment is that you get at work. Better or worse? What about pay and benefits?
From The Sunday TimesJuly 8, 2007
Powell tried to talk Bush out of war
Sarah Baxter, Washington
THE former American secretary of state Colin Powell has revealed that he spent 2½ hours vainly trying to persuade President George W Bush not to invade Iraq and believes today’s conflict cannot be resolved by US forces.
“I tried to avoid this war,” Powell said at the Aspen Ideas Festival in Colorado. “I took him through the consequences of going into an Arab country and becoming the occupiers.”
Powell has become increasingly outspoken about the level of violence in Iraq, which he believes is in a state of civil war. “The civil war will ultimately be resolved by a test of arms,” he said. “It’s not going to be pretty to watch, but I don’t know any way to avoid it. It is happening now.”
He added: “It is not a civil war that can be put down or solved by the armed forces of the United States.” All the military could do, Powell suggested, was put “a heavier lid on this pot of boiling sectarian stew”.
The signs are that the views of Powell and other critics of the war are finally being heard in the Pentagon, if not yet in the White House. Robert Gates, the defence secretary, is drawing up plans to reduce troop levels in Iraq in anticipation that General David Petraeus, the commander in Iraq, will not be able to deliver an upbeat progress report in September on the American troop surge.
“It should come as no secret to anyone that there are discussions about what is a postsurge strategy,” said Tony Fratto, deputy White House press secretary, last week.
The surge’s lack of demonstrable success is creating fissures in the Republican party as well as putting enormous pressure on the Democratic presidential candidates to favour a rapid pull-out, which Gates fears could leave Iraq in chaos.
New Mexico senator Pete Domenici became the third Republican senator in recent weeks to break ranks openly with Bush on the war. “We cannot continue asking our troops to sacrifice indefinitely while the Iraqi government is not making measurable progress,” he said. “I am calling for a new strategy that will move our troops out of combat operations and on the path home.”
Speculation is growing that Gates will demonstrate his commitment to withdrawing US forces by moving a combat brigade of up to 3,000 troops out of Iraq as early as October and continuing to reduce their numbers month by month from their current strength of 160,000 to presurge levels of around 130,000 by the summer of 2008.
Gates believes American troop withdrawals are essential to building a cross-party consensus for retaining a presence in Iraq after Bush’s term in office expires. As a former director of the CIA who saw out the cold war in the early 1990s, he hopes to win the same bipartisan support for Iraq that President Harry Truman secured against the Soviet Union after the second world war.
The policy is likely to appeal to Gordon Brown, the prime minister, who hopes to begin withdrawing more British troops from southern Iraq by the end of August.
A senior defence source said it would be possible to reduce the number of American forces to roughly 50,000-70,000 by election day in November 2008. “You are going to have to have some people left behind to provide stability and security for the country and take on the terrorists,” the source said.
The figures are similar to those floated by aides to Hillary Clinton, the frontrunner for the Democratic presidential nomination, although she has been upping the rhetoric against remaining in Iraq in an effort to capture the support of party activists.
According to Powell, the US cannot “blow a whistle one morning” and have all American forces just leave. The former secretary of state has twice met Barack Obama, the Democratic candidate, to advise him on foreign policy. Despite his antiwar stance, Obama supports a phased withdrawal that could leave a “significantly reduced force” in Iraq for “an extended period”.
Defence experts believe it will be impossible to maintain the surge’s high troop levels beyond February at the latest, given the need to rotate and refresh troops. Powell, who served as chairman of the joint chiefs of staff in the early 1990s, said in Aspen that America’s volunteer army was already overstretched. He predicted that Bush would be forced to “face the situation on the ground” and alter course by the end of this year.
Supporters of the surge believe this could send a disastrous signal to the Iraqis. “If we pull out, if we stop this operation now, we will hand Al-Qaeda a terrific victory,” said Frederick Kagan, a military historian at the American Enterprise Institute and an early advocate of the policy.
“The Iraqi government, right now, is a terrific ally in the war on terror. There have been more Iraqis killed fighting Al-Qaeda than in any other nation of the world. The question is, are we going to stand by them?”
The same political fault line runs through the White House between Vice-President Dick Cheney’s office and the State Department ? now run by Condoleezza Rice, Powell’s successor ? as it did at the start of the Iraq war. Bush has not yet thrown his weight definitively behind one side or the other, but the key difference this time is that the defence secretary is one of the “realists”.
According to Powell: “We have to face the reality of the situation that is on the ground and not what we would want it to be.” He believes that, even if the military surge has been a partial success in areas such as Anbar province, where Sunni tribes have turned on Al-Qaeda, it has not been accompanied by the vital political and economic “surge” and reconciliation process promised by the Iraqi government.
Al-Qaeda, Powell asserted, was only 10% of the problem in Iraq and Nouri al-Maliki, its prime minister, lacked the political will to establish an effective government. After a promising start to the surge at the beginning of the year, 453 unidentified corpses were found on the streets of Baghdad last month, 41% more than the 321 bodies found in January, according to unofficial Iraqi health ministry statistics.
The military gains could prove as fleeting in Anbar as Baghdad. American officers in Iraq believe Al-Qaeda strengthened its hold on the Sunni-dominated region in 2005, when responsibility for security was shifted prematurely to Iraqi forces that were led by Shi’ites and proved incapable of providing protection.
Powell believes that a reduction in US forces will have to be accompanied by talks with Syria and Iran. “You have to talk to the people you dislike most in this dangerous world.”
The general and former joint chiefs of staff added: “Shi’ites will ultimately prevail because they are 60% of the population and their militias can be pretty violent. They will prevail also because they are determined not to be ruled again by the Sunnis.
“The Sunnis are struggling for power and survival and it’s going to be resolved by a test of arms. It’s going to be very ugly.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2042072.ece
When we we be hearing again, we can’t let the troops sacrifice be in vain! What was it a few hundred, last time we heard that?
“14 Reasons to Deport/Kill Illegal Aliens…
Posted by: sgt. slaughter | July 08, 2007 at 04:42 PM”
LISTEN UP, EAGLE!
You’ve got to take responsibility for this RACIST, HATE SPEECH.
Freedom of speech does not extend to threatening violence against minorities, and you damn well know it.
If you don’t have the resources to monitor and pull ILLEGAL posts, then shut the whole blog down.
This is for you, Eagle.
! ………………../´¯/)………………..,/¯../………………./…./…………./´¯/’…’/´¯¯`•¸………./’/…/…./……./¨¯\……..(’(…´…´…. ¯~/’…’)………\……………..’…../……….”…\………. _.•´…………\…………..(…………..\………….\
You may be hearing from some civil rights groups in the near future . . . .
The G.W. Bush NEW campaign…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB6PNTKM2xg&watch_response
Must see !!!!!
Or should I say, you may be hearing from the LAWYERS of some civil rights groups . . .
“If you don’t have the resources to monitor and pull ILLEGAL posts, then shut the whole blog down.”
Maybe you could organize a boycott. Maybe call it Fisting With Fury, too. Just a thought.
I wondered what reich-winger would rise to defend racist hate speech.
Yup. Fleettwood–Blog’s Dumbest Poster–is right on cue.
Mark Steyn on British doctors.
” According to a report in the British Medical Journal, white males comprise 43.5 percent of the population but now account for less than a quarter of students at UK medical schools. In other words, being a doctor is no longer an attractive middle-class career proposition. That’s quite a monument to six decades of Michael Moore-style socialist health care.”
“The fact that the National Health Service – the “envy of the world” in every British politician’s absurdly parochial cliché – has to hire Wahhabist doctors with no background checks tells you everything about where the country’s heading.”
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/opinion/nationalcolumns/article_1756372.php
Capn
“14 Reasons to Deport/Kill Illegal Aliens..”
Despicable, yes. But racist? How?
I was just trying to help, capn.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4950647.html?plckCurrentPage=5
BUSH FAMILY EVIL EMPIRE: SCANDAL DU JOUR
Remember how Bush relished his role of throwing first time drug-users into Texas prisons and throwing away the key?
Remember that?
Turns out that the rumors about young George the drugged-out AWOL rich kid are resurfacing after years of dedicated burial:
From one of his fellow servicemen:
“Be pro-Bush if you like, but never forget that the man is a deserter from the Texas National Guard who only received an honorable discharge because of his father.
“What is more, I personally saw the man do lines of drugs laid out on a bar on Richmond Drive in 1973 while I was home on leave.”
James E. Atkinson, US Navy (ret)
Too bad Kerry couldn’t have gotten a group of these fellows together to tell their tales of Bush drug use. Actually, he could have. But that would mean he was no better than Bush (Swift Boat Vets for Truth).
This has been your Bush Family Evil Empire: Scandal Du Jour reminding you that the Commander-in-Chief leading us into war is a former coked-to-the-gills drug-abuser.
Heckler–
You’re not that dumb, so I’m not going to bother to answer.
Clearly, Sgt. Slaughter (Ian Santiago) is not talking about illegal immigrants from Austria like Arnold Swartzenegger.
“I did, but I didn’t inhale”
Who said this?
And exactly how many of you believed it?
If you are basing decisions on some ‘use’ in college, your priorities are SOOOOO out of order I am truly hoping you can not find your way to the polls.
Capn
Just wanted to make sure you werent assigning a blanket indictment of “racist” to folks like me who expect immigrants to follow ours laws, regardless of race or national origin.
Sol–
The difference is that Clinton admitted it.
Actually, I did believe that Clinton smoked but tried not to get high.
He doesn’t drink either. He has seen alcohol abuse close up and first hand.
It makes sense that intoxicants wouldn’t hold much attraction for him.
My dad for instance grew up with two smoking parents. Not only did he not smoke, he practically grounded me for life for having a few cigars when I was in the eighth grade.
Heckler–
Laws should be followed (if they are just laws), no doubt about it.
That’s why laws against hate speech (”kill illegals”) that encourage people to take the law into their own hands without judge or jury need to be enforced too.
“You may be hearing from some civil rights groups in the near future . . . better lawyer up.”
Posted by: CapnAmerica | July 09, 2007 at 08:32 AM
CapnAmerica – Rebel without a clue. :D
I have an idea Eagle, just ban CapnAmerica from even viewing the WE Blog, that way he won’t be offended. :D
When a mosquito buzzes, Capn America waves it away . . .
Capn
I hope you don’t want this country going down the road of “hate speech” legislation. It’s foolish Fascism.
Keep in mind, there is a difference between saying something hateful and inciting someone to violence. If “Freedom of Speech” means we have to tolerate the Ians of the world I can live with it. Because the alternative is not acceptable to me.
Okay, fine, Heckler.
Let’s not quibble over fine distinctions.
The fact is that posting “Kill Illegals!” on a public forum is fomenting violence.
If you are in favor of this kind of speech, then you would also have to permit radical jihadists demanding that “infidels” should be wiped out.
You wouldn’t mind that, would you? If a bunch of jihadis stood on a public street corner or posted to this blog demanding that God has willed that all Christians be murdered in their beds.
I’m sure you would support that kind of “free speech,” right?
Did any of you actually READ Sgt’s original post on this matter?? It WAS hate speech… CapN, I dont remember which thread it ws on… but why dont you re-post the entire thing… It WAS hate speech… It WAS directed toward a particular GROUP! It’s too early in the day for the Blog white sheets to be coming out already….
BOYCOTT! BOYCOTT!
Considering the vile things that have been posted here about gay people, this hate speech is mild.
And that is not to excuse this hate speech. But I sure dont see anyone jumping up and down when sarge posts about gays.
If you ban one hater, you need to ban them all. Good luck with that.
I havent read Sgt’s entire post, I was only commenting on what Capn posted. Maybe I’m speaking out of place. I don’t know.
Capn
as to your comment about jihadis making death posts here, or screaming “death to Christians” on the street corner- it makes them easier to find, you know who you are dealing with. And if what Sgt said really was encitement to violence? Well, if the authorities really want to, they CAN track down where a given post on this blog came from….”keep your enemies closer”…
WE Blog says:
“we reserve the right to remove any comments that are threatening, libelous, obscene or otherwise objectionable.”
Could someone please post a link so the rest of us would know exactly what is being talked about?
KFG — If I would have been more awake when I read Sgt’s post, I would have sent it into WE Blog..Unfortunately, I was about half asleep… And now, I cant remember which thread it was on!!
For the record, KSGrrl, I’m totally ‘equal opportunity’ when it comes to violence against any group, esp. minorities who have traditionally suffered from mob violence.
Case in point is one Matthew Shepard. They didn’t kill him because he was white. They killed him because he was gay.
Before you have a hate act, you have to have hate speech.
Whenever I see it, I call it out. (I may have missed some in the past.)
And the point remains that The Eagle owns and runs this Blog.
They are legally responsible for what they let stand here.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/07/open-thread-5.html#comments
Here’s the link to Sgt’s orginal post. It’s about 3/4th of the way down.
Actually, I didn’t see anything illegal about the rest of the post.
What I was objecting to was his exhortation to “kill illegals.”
You don’t get to say that people in the U.S. should be killed without due process of law.
Posted by: sgt. slaughter | July 08, 2007 at 04:42 PM
It is on the open thread for yesterday.
Let the haters speak. I dont advocate denying anyone the right to free speech. I know hate and bigotry when I see it. It can not be shamed out of people.
Let ‘em spew. The ones who agree wont change by cutting off their speech.
The rest of us know to walk on by…
And like I said, if you are going to ban one hater, you have to ban them all.
Good luck with that.
Exactly right, Chas.
Question is, why the hell DON’T THEY?
CapN… You can try sending a copy of Sgt’s post to:
weblog@wichitaeagle.com
I dont know if it would do any good, but its a thought…
CapN… I sent Randy S. a copy of another very racist type post of the Sgt… He responded that it might be one to keep a “watch” on, and see if it got worse…
Well, now it has…
Sorry, KGrrl. This isn’t walk on by material.
People can say that “gays disgust me” or “liberals hate America.”
That’s protected even though it’s hateful.
What you can’t say and what The Eagle should not let stand is when someone says “gays should be shot on sight” or “liberals, being treasonous bastards, should be fire bombed out of their homes.”
When The Eagle says that they “reserve the right to remove any comments that are threatening,” exhortations to violence would clearly meet that test.
Capn doesn’t give a crap about illegal aliens, he just wants to enlarge his cyber ego.
They should put me in charge of this Blog, I know how to edit posts and filter out controversial content. Then their problems would be solved.
:D
That would bring the ACLU types running to Wichita…hehehe
Of course, WE Blog can posts what it likes under the Freedom of Speech/Press, but I guess that’s unimportant to Capn.
Bonghits for Capn! Everybody toke now! :D
wow, three months sooner than I thought:
July 9, 20078 a.m. CDTPark City, Kansas
Wild West World Press Release
On July 9th, 2007, Wild West World, LLC will file for Chapter 11 protection under the United States Bankruptcy Code with the United States Bankruptcy Court in Wichita, Kansas. Wild West World will close immediately as of this date and will cease day-to-day operations. All employees have been paid through Sunday, July 8th. In Chapter 11, the management of the company will be allowed to conduct the affairs of the business as a Debtor-in Possession.
Since January, 2007, the Wichita area suffered excessive amounts of snow, ice, rain, storms, and tornados. Since the park opened to the media on May 1 and the general public on May 5th, approximately 50 of the last 60 days have been either rain, storms, overcast, tornados, tornado warnings or poor weather of some sort. On May 4th, the Greensburg tornado devastated that community. In the months of June and July, Kansas experienced unprecedented rain and flooding, having a devastating impact on Wild West World’s attendance and projected revenue. As a result, Wild West World cannot meet its operating expenses from the actual revenue generated.
Wild West World management is currently negotiating and will continue to negotiate throughout the world for a new purchaser for the park. It is not the intention of Wild West World management to permanently close the park. Thomas and Cheryl Etheredge state that they believe in Park City and Wichita and the need for family entertainment. They will continue to do everything possible to have Wild West World emerge from Chapter 11 Bankruptcy through a sale of the assets.
Wild West World retained the law firm of Redmond & Nazar LLP of Wichita, KS to represent it in its Chapter 11 proceeding.
A PRESS CONFERENCE WILL BE HELD AT 2:00 P.M. CDT today at the Johnny Western Theater at Wild West World.
For further information contact:
Edward Nazar or Thomas GilmanAttorneys at LawRedmond & Nazar, L.L.P.245 North Waco, Suite 402Wichita, Kansas 67202(316) 262-8361 Phone(316) 263-0610 Fax
hahahahahahaha…..
anyone else think fraud? anyone think this was planned?
Tony–
The only thing that surprises me about Wild West World going belly-up is that the City of Wichita didn’t pass a special (regressive) tax to subsidize it while it went broke . . .
Chas–
I’m not really interested in doing The Eagle’s job for them by sending them posts that they should be aware of.
This is a systematic problem with this blog. Not a rare occurance.
Until The Eagle does something about it systematically, it’s going to just keep happening.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!heheheheheheheehehehehehehehehehhe!hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee he!
“On July 9th, 2007, Wild West World, LLC will file for Chapter 11 protection under the United States Bankruptcy Code with the United States Bankruptcy Court in Wichita, Kansas. Wild West World will close immediately as of this date and will cease day-to-day operations. ”
OMG, now THAT is the funniest thing I have read in a long time.
GOOD NEWS FOR MAN!!! THE FREE MARKET WORKS!!!!!!
I dont suppose ol’ tom will ever consider if his association with the little ayatollah, one of the terry, joe and phred trinity, just MIGHT have hurt his little theme park?
hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee hee
Hey terry, would you please endorse jan pauls and tim huelskamp too? I mean, so they would get your stink and go away just like ol’ tom?
Except, I’m sure ol’ tom aint going no where. He hasnt sucked all the money out of wichita yet.
And neither have terry, joe and fred.
For instance, upthread I posted a big ASCII picture of a hand flipping the bird.
That is clearly obscene and should be immediately pulled.
But does The Eagle do anything about it?
Nah, they just whine about not having the staff or something . . .
The reason for failure is that Wild West World is a giant Joyland with nothing really unique about it, the exception being the theme.
This type of amusement park may have been a big deal when I was a kid, but it no longer attracts today’s youth. I would say the marketing concept didn’t meet the realization of what the customer expectations were.
If your market depends on the 6-12 year old, then you better well have provided something to attract the parents as well.
This is simply a case of the WWW management not knowing their targeted marketing crowd. I think even an undergraduate Marketing student can see what has happened here.
Three times I have started to post in reference to the sgt idiots post. I believe in the principle of free speech. I even believe in the principle of free speech when it used in hateful ways. I have seen example after example of hateful speech, here and elsewhere. So be it. Let them “spew”. It seems there are two remedies available for the post in question. 1) Ask the Eagle to remove the offending post 2) rebut the post, the poster, and then ignore the poster from this point on. I prefer the second in nearly all cases. And as a practical matter, it is difficult to delete the post, and leave all the dissent about the post. Makes no sense. However, exhorting to kill someone is over the line. I recommend and ask that the Eagle delete the offending post, and all posts referring to it.
I’m glad I didn’t buy season tickets…
the somewhat disappointin thing is I wanted to take my kids, and had all intention of doing so in the next few weeks…
but oh well…
Awwww. For the second time in 11 months, Brother Terry will have no place to spew his hateful “sermons.”
I’m sad. Devastated. Crushed. Disconsolate. What will Brother Terry DO????
::snicker::
Well Tom, I bet he will find a new scapegoat, (or maybe just stick with gay people, it works for him) and then whip the “faithful” into a frenzy and then…
…big surprise. He’ll go into full fundraising (read shakedown) mode so he can build a NEW empire from which to rule his little kingdom. And from which he will derive his income.
And btw, did the little ayatollah ever pay his property taxes?
I guess taxes and fiscal responsibility are just, well, so for the LITTLE people.
Certainly not for holy rollers like terry, joe and fred.
Hey, I know! Maybe terry fox can get someone to sponsor a radio show…
Maybe Wild West World?
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/117812.html
lj,
It’s not hard to edit or delete posts on Typepad types of Blogs. I have one, I know.
I can even edit the post(any post) itself, block the user by IP or name, put in filters for offensive words and etc.
I’m guessing that there’s not enough time in the day for Editors to manage the Blog administratively, but they do delete offensive posts when asked.
Now that is damn funny. I’m SO glad as I believe this sends a message about the uber fundies running things. The theme park may have been just fine had the owner kept his affiliation with Fox hidden.
That is the one and only reason I wouldn’t go. Not to mention it just sounded hokey as all get out.Even Silver Dollar City with it’s Western Theme has a much COOLER theme. And they have can-can girls which I’m sure was disapproved by fundies there in the deep bible belt.
Perhaps a new buyer can get it all to work…put up a new sign with a new name, get rid of the Johnny Western idea.
PMom, interesting political spin on WWW. :D
It’s just too darn bad that the new anti-bankruptcy laws don’t apply to fundy risky business ventures.
Only to poor people who got sick…
Really Con? I’m not the only one saying it.
LIBERAL STUPIDITY:
(lib-er-al Stu-pid-ity) ~ An outdoor theme park sufferes from more bad weather than good weather and goes under. Liberals rejoice because they think this is a victory because the parks real failure was due to it’s alleged affiliation with Terry Fox.
It seems to me that you guys are getting away with taking drugs without their being made legal just fine.
“Really Con? I’m not the only one saying it.Posted by: political_mom | July 09, 2007 at 11:22 AM
My bad, I thought you were the one who wrote:
“I’m SO glad as I believe this sends a message about the uber fundies running things.”
Did you read the responses from the article link? I didn’t write those, and almost every single one was due to Terry Fox.
Rain! My ass it was rain. There haven’t been that many stormy days to blame it on. Heck, we went to Florida and it rained every day for a bit, and it didn’t hurt any of their theme parks any.
“That is the one and only reason I wouldn’t go. Not to mention it just sounded hokey as all get out.”
Not to mention you are dead broke.
Pat Robertson would see the hand of God at work in the WWW fiasco.
You liberals realize that the owners of WWW also own The Prarie Rose Chuck Wagon Supper?
That it is a huge success?
Have you ever been to it?
I swear you liberals are like little rabid dogs.
I for one am sorry to see www go under. Everyplace needs some family entertainment. I think that the falling down was partially the weather, it has been horrendous for outdoor activity, miscalculation on what the public wanted, but most importantly, and the lesson to learn, insufficient funding to start a new venture by counting on the first years receipts to keep the business afloat. According to SBA, biggest reason for business failures: Insufficient capitol.
No, actually I didn’t know. Thanks for telling me so I know never to go there either.
Fleets enema, I haven’t been dead broke in awhile now.
Before we start having orgasms about Wild West World going belly up, let’s remember we’re talking about 300 jobs and $27 million, some of it bond money (=YOUR MONEY).
I want to see Terry take it in the shorts as much as anyone else, but not at this price.
By bringing in the most radical, politicized preacher in the state of Kansas, they politicized their theme park.
Someone hold me while I weep for their loss.
“It seems to me that you guys are getting away with taking drugs without their being made legal just fine.”
My coffee is perfectly legal. Rush is the big drug addict.
By bringing in the most radical, politicized preacher in the state of Kansas, they politicized their theme park.
Posted by: Tom | July 09, 2007 at 12:11 PM
While it probably didn;t help, I doubt that it hurt much. I dont think there are that many politically sensitive theme park goers. Witness how few bloggers there are here. A good many people are like the ancient Romans. Give them a good circus, cake, and a good bath, and they could care less.
Different topic – gambling on casinoe, stock market style:
http://money.cnn.com/2007/07/02/news/companies/casinos/index.htm?postversion=2007070213
Rolling the dice on casinosA flurry of deals in the gaming sector have investors expecting more casino mergers. But is this a sucker bet?
One ugly thing about the immigrant workers hate-filled post, was that it was lifted from some other blog (just try Googling the first sentences of these things!!) … but SGT PEPPER added the part advocating murdering the people who pour our concrete, cut our lawns and clean our homes…
LJ, I agree with your thoughts on WWW and the existence of Terry Fox’ congregation on its premises. It seems to me that the Chapter 11 was precipitated by wrong concept, wrong place, wrong time (weather surely did play at least a bit of a part in the low attendance) plus being undercapitalized. While the Prairie Rose does a good business, I submit the target market therefor and size thereof is much different than that of WWW, and that needed by WWW for any success.
Nathan, I’ve been to neither of Mr. Ethredge’s enterprises, due to my personal lack of interest in both.
Littlejohn & Vaughn,
Bad word-of-mouth can kill any business, and as my rather large number of friends and acquaintances is concerned, I know of _none_ who were willing to spend money at Wild West World. The main reason? The very, very public presence of Terry Fox.
Tom-
perhaps your friends and acquaitances are more politically motivated than mine. I would guess about Half don;t even know who Terry Fox is, half of the rest could care less about him being provided a space for his “church” at WWW, and the rest don;t know how to tie their shoes.
An outdoor theme park suffers from more bad weather than good weather and goes under. Posted by: Nathan
I read complaints on OL that their prices were too high.
————————————————
This is for you, Eagle.
…………\…………..(…………..\………….
Posted by: CapnAmerica | July 09, 2007 at 08:34 AM
While I agree with your outrage Capn. over sgt’s post, I am as equally outraged by your finger gesture. Neither post belongs of Weblog.
Littlejohn,
Terry Fox, using Etheredge’s money, has done everything he can to make life hell for gay and lesbian Kansans. So yes, my friends and acquaintances _are_ politically motivated. And we all have families & friends that we’ve passed that word-of-mouth on to.
The weather may have played a part. Lack of sustaining capital may have played a part. Not enough rides may have played a part. All those things are probably true. But I’m equally certain the bad reputation of Fox played a part as well.
Tom-
I got no problem with that. I think each person has a right to spend their money as they wish. And if they don;t like someone’s politics, and want to boycott their business, fine for me. I made the same argument (not here) about the Dixie Chicks comments. They had a right to express them, people had a right to no longer support them. I understand your focus on Tery Fox and his connection with Etheredge is incompatible for you going there. It could have caused enough dissatisfaction to put them out of business, Idoubt it. However, it certainly didn;t help. Businesses need to be aware of how their political/religious stances affect their business, and plan accordingly
WWW demise is, in reality, most likely a combination of the things that have been mentioned here.
I have no doubt that weather was a factor but not to the extent claimed. Just because Kansas is in the mid-west and you have a successful “western themed” dinner theater does not mean that kids/youth/young folks are going to flock to a park with the same old theme. This was a bad marketing plan, plain and simple.
Throw in the number of people who refused to go since the park was affiliated with “Rev.” Fox (I like Tom know many people who refused to go for this very reason) and the sky high prices that made this unaffordable family entertainment and the writing was on the wall.
I don’t celebrate the loss of jobs in the area. I don’t celebrate the number of people who will directly and indirectly be hurt financially from this. But, I won’t complain either.
As for “Rev.” Fox. I’m sure he will continue to rent the theatre until his new compound is built on the land they purchased near WWW.
Well, my harddrive bit it today, now I have to be on my hubby’s computer. I hate everything about this computer. It’ll just kick me in the pants to get the laptop I’ve been eyeing.
We’ve been trying to get our business going without asking for a loan…but that is looking to be harder to do.
Pat Robertson? You mean the one who said gays and lesbians caused Katrina and the WTC tragedy? And Fallwell blamed us and said god was mad?
And now www goes under due to “weather”?
Do you suppose god was mad at WWW? Mad at ol’ Tom? Mad at Terry?
Or do you think us oh-so-powerful gays and lesbians just wished real hard and made it so?
No, I think god is probably mad at them and this is his way of expressing displeasure. I’m sure jerry and pat would agree.
Etheredge sealed the fate of his theme park when he partnered with Terry Fox, even if it was just to provide a location for the Fox Church of Gay Hating.
Fox justs turns off too many people.
Someone mentioned undercapitalization. Maybe. But…
If revenue streams had matched predictions, the park wouldnt have been undercaped. If the founder didnt give away so much of his funds to the little ayatollah, maybe the park wouldnt have been undercapped.
Maybe more people would have braved the weather without the terry taint.
Maybe the financial folks would have provided more backing if not for the terry taint.
Maybe prairie rose doesnt suffer because the little ayatollah doesnt have a church there, and he didnt seek refuge there. The public association with fox and www is much more clear than with prairie rose.
Mayb lots of things. I mean, as long as we are speculating. But funny how most of the “maybes” are somehow related to the tom and terry show.
Farmie,You should appologize for Katrina and the WTC. As for WWW, weeellllll
…and of course, terry is the subject of what still is the most posted blog entry in the history of the WE blog. Read it if you can stand it and see how the sentiment ran.
Mostly against terry. Even from his own parishoners.
Now tell me again how terry was not a factor in the demise of www?
I dont know why they dont just make it a bible theme park with a little shop of horrors exhibit about tiller.
THAT oughta pack ‘em in in wichita…
Shhhhhh KFG… dont give em any ideas!!
Man, it’s a bad day for wingnuts. Slaughter starts the day with death threats, the Sullenger abortion bombing crime family is exposed, terry and tom fleece the faithful AND park city, and the libby defenders are still fighing the verdict as handed down by scooter’s peers.
What else could happen? Dont ask…
I mean, hey, they got a museum now for creation science back in KY…
I cnat hear every word, but from the shrill tone of voice, it sounds like Rush is having a meltdown on his show too…
hehehehe Chas, wanna bet the game with a drag queen on a dunking seat with terry and his merry band of bigots pitching(!) ahem, hard balls at the target to dunk the eeeeevil homosexual.
I bet they put that one right next to the tiller exhibit. On the other side of the shrine to connie morris.
hey, now you are really giving them ideas….. LOL…. now cut that out!! LOL
Oh, and will that Connie shrine be decorated with red/white/blue candles, and patriot bibles???
just wondered…. LOL
Yep Cappy,
If the speech doesn’t match yours, then it is
Racist,Bigoted,Hatefilled,Doesn’t matter,Conservative Talking Points,Illegal,Homophobic,Mexiphobic,Muslimphobic,
What the hell, let’s just make it plain ol WRONG.
SO SAYETH CAPPY
Talk about needing his SS uniform dusted off!
You know Michael Savage was right about one thing the other day when he was making his Freedom of Speech Award, acceptance speech.
Back in the 60’s the Liberal would say,
“I may not agree with your speech, but I’ll fight to the death your right to say it.”
Compare that to ol Cappy today.
Michael Savage is also right about another thing. Liberalism is a DANGEROUS mental disorder.
OH OH, hope Cappy don’t come after me. I’m sorry Cappy, I’ll run and get my Star of David patch right away and get it sewn on.
Google michael savage and see why his career is in the toilet…
Bush didn’t just screw the pooch, he screwed America!Report: Wars cost US $12 billion a month By ANDREW TAYLOR, Associated Press Writer1 hour, 3 minutes ago
WASHINGTON – The boost in troop levels in Iraq has increased the cost of war there and in Afghanistan to $12 billion a month, and the total for Iraq alone is nearing a half-trillion dollars, congressional analysts say.
ADVERTISEMENTAll told, Congress has appropriated $610 billion in war-related money since the Sept. 11, 2001, terror assaults, roughly the same as the war in Vietnam. Iraq alone has cost $450 billion.
The figures come from the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service, which provides research and analysis to lawmakers.
For the 2007 budget year, CRS says, the $166 billion appropriated to the Pentagon represents a 40 percent increase over 2006.
The Vietnam War, after accounting for inflation, cost taxpayers $650 billion, according to separate CRS estimates.
The $12 billion a month “burn rate” includes $10 billion for Iraq and almost $2 billion for Afghanistan, plus other minor costs. That’s higher than Pentagon estimates earlier this year of $10 billion a month for both operations. Two years ago, the average monthly cost was about $8 billion.
Among the reasons for the higher costs is the cost of repairing and replacing equipment worn out in harsh conditions or destroyed in combat.
But the estimates call into question the Pentagon’s estimate that the increase in troop strength and intensifying pace of operations in Baghdad and Anbar province would cost only $5.6 billion through the end of September.
If Congress approves President Bush’s pending request for another $147 billion for the budget year starting Oct. 1, the total bill for the war on terror since Sept. 11 would reach more than three-fourths of a trillion dollars, with appropriations for Iraq reaching $567 billion.
Also, if the increase in war tempo continues beyond September, the Pentagon’s request “would presumably be inadequate,” CRS said.
The latest estimates come as support for the war in Iraq among Bush’s GOP allies in Congress is beginning to erode. Senior Republicans such as Pete Domenici of New Mexico and Richard Lugar of Indiana have called for a shift in strategy in Iraq and a battle over funding the war will resume in September, when Democrats in Congress begin work on a funding bill for the war.
Congress approved $99 billion in war funding in May after a protracted battle and a Bush veto of an earlier measure over Democrats’ attempt to set a timeline for withdrawing U.S. combat troops from Iraq.
The report faults the Pentagon for using the Iraq war as a pretext for boosting the Pentagon’s non-war budget by costs such as procurement, increasing the size of the military and procurement of replacement aircraft as war-related items.
The new estimate comes as the White House and Democrats are fighting over spending bills for next year. That battle is over about $22 billion — almost the cost of two months’ fighting in Iraq.
“Think about what $10 billion a month would mean to protecting Americans from terrorism, improving security at our ports and airports, and increasing border security,” said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif.
Interesting those asking for selective censorship on this blog. I say interesting because I have spent time trying to understand the mideast posts on the various websites by muslims. They get cheers and praises to Allah whenever someone posts death or murder of Americans (and other western countries). In America, we abhor such postings even against our political opponents. Censorship is like being pregnant. You either are or you are not. You can’t be a little pregnant and you cannot use any one mans judgement to decide what is appropriate herein. Freedom of speech is non selective.
“Jewish leaders concerned by trend to delegitimize Israel”"By Amiram Barkat, Haaretz Correspondent”"The trend toward delegitimizing Israel’s existence as a Jewish state is growing not only in Europe, but also in the United States, according to Jewish-American academics and community leaders.
Anti-Israel attacks are even beginning to affect Jewish supporters of Israel, who have been accused of trying to silence public debate, they said.
This trend toward delegitimization will be one of the topics discussed at a conference on the future of the Jewish people that opens in Jerusalem this morning.
The conference, which will be attended by researchers, heads of Jewish organizations and senior Israeli politicians, was organized by the Jewish People Policy Planning Institute.
Avinoam Bar-Yosef, JPPPI’s director general, said that anti-Israel attacks in the U.S. constitute a “long-term threat” to Israel’s standing, American Jewish organizations and the pro-Israel lobby
“Public attention is currently focused on Europe, due to initiatives like the British academic boycott,” he said. “In the U.S., the problem is still under the radar. But as a planning institute, we believe that it is necessary to formulate policy on this issue now.”
Brandeis University President Jehuda Reinharz told Haaretz that American academics are at the forefront of those denying Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state.
Veteran advocates of this position, such as Tony Judt and Noam Chomsky, were joined last year by Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, both from reputable academic institutions, who charged that the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) dictates American foreign policy.
Their article, which generated shock waves, is being turned into a book, which is slated to be published in September. The fact that a respected publisher paid Walt and Mearsheimer an advance that is thought to have totaled hundreds of thousands of dollars attests to how hot the publisher thinks this issue is, Reinharz said.
“My feeling and that of many people following Walt and Mearsheimer and other publications is that we are at the start of a new era with regard to attitudes toward Israel in the U.S.,” he added.
Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League, believes that Jimmy Carter’s book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid, which was published last November, had a much greater impact than did other publications.
“In the past, people who said that Jewish supporters of Israel control the media and politics belonged to the margins,” he said. “But after former president Carter said it, it gained legitimacy in the mainstream.
Today, the debate is already on questions such as to what extent the Jews dominate.”
Foxman said that Jews who challenge anti-Israel attacks find themselves accused of undermining freedom of expression.
“I received letters from professors who claimed that when I accuse someone of anti-Semitism, I am trying to silence public debate,” he said. “When the president of Harvard University said that the delegitimization of Israel helps anti-Semites, he was accused of silencing public debate.
No one would have dared accuse him of this had he been talking about racism or xenophobia.”
Reinharz said that he is worried by the lack of effective response to anti-Israel publications.
“I see no combined effort to fight this by the Jewish organizations, and in truth, I myself don’t know how this could be done,” he said.”
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/880061.html—–
Say Ed Friedman, I’m sorta new at this blog thingamajig. I’m wondering what is the point of your post about delegitimizing Israel’s jewish right to exist. Do people just copy and paste prose on this blog, and hope something sticks? Or do they place their own personal opinions and thoughts and provoke discussion? If it’s the former, I have some great Mad Magazine stuff I’d like to throw out there. Spy versus spy sorta thing and a little Alred E. Neuman.
The point being made is by the leading Israeli Newspaper and is important toward establishing peace between Israel and her neighbors.
That in turn will bring gasoline back to a “buck” a gallon and save billions in defense.
You sound as though foreign policy is away over your head, so perhaps Alfred E. Neuman is more your speed.
We all just ignore ed.
Isn’t Friedemann a Jewish name? Why’s Ed attacking Israel and the jews all the time?
Friedman is a Jewish name.
Frid E mann is not.
Gene Ralston–
I can say anything that makes you look more ridiculous than what you’ve already said yourself.
What a maroon.
?????–
I totally agree that the finger should not be posted.
I only use it when Ian Santiago posts racist hate speech. The editors don’t like my finger.
My reasoning is that if they allow racist hate speech, then they should allow a finger.
Which is worse?
Ed?? I saw somewhere on the Blog that you deny the holocaust… Problem is, I have met several holocaust survivors… plus met a few US Vets who liberated some of the camps… I have seen first hand pictures… IF you deny the holocaust, then you need some serious psychological therapy…
Please clarify….
UH OH . . .
Looks like “The D.C. Madame” investigation snagged another Republican: Sen. David Vittner, from La.
I’m so looking forward to hearing the Bush-bots explain why Clinton had to impeached for a couple of hummers but their guys deserve nothing but our sympathy.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070710/ap_on_go_co/vitter_dc_madam
WASHINGTON – Sen. David Vitter, R-La., apologized Monday night for “a very serious sin in my past” after his telephone number appeared among those associated with an escort service operated by the so-called “D.C. Madam.”
Vitter’s spokesman, Joel Digrado, confirmed the statement in an e-mail sent to The Associated Press.
“This was a very serious sin in my past for which I am, of course, completely responsible,” Vitter said in the statement. “Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling. Out of respect for my family, I will keep my discussion of the matter there — with God and them. But I certainly offer my deep and sincere apologies to all I have disappointed and let down in any way.”
The statement containing Vitter’s apology said his telephone number was on old phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates before he ran for the Senate.
Deborah Jeane Palfrey was accused in federal court of racketeering by running a prostitution ring that netted more than $2 million over 13 years, beginning in 1993. She contends, however, that her escort service, Pamela Martin and Associates, was a legitimate business.
Vitter, 46, a Republican in his first Senate term, was elected to the Senate in 2004. He represented Louisiana’s 1st Congressional District in the House from 1999 to 2004.
Vitter and his wife, Wendy, live in Metairie, La., with their four children.
Palfrey’s attorney, Montgomery Blair Sibley, told the AP, “I’m stunned that someone would be apologizing for this.” He said Palfrey had posted the phone numbers of her escort service’s clients online Monday, but he did not know whether Vitter’s number was among them. Vitter’s statement was sent to the AP’s New Orleans bureau Monday evening.
Palfrey’s Web site contains 20 compressed files of phone records, dating from August 1994 to August 2006. No names are listed, only phone numbers. Palfrey wrote on the Web site that she believed a disk containing the records had been pirated, and wrote that she was posting the records “to thwart any possible distorted version and to ensure the integrity of the information.”
Randall Tobias, a senior official in the State Department, resigned in April after ABC News confronted him about his use of the escort service. He admitted that he had hired women to come to his Washington condo and give him massages but denied that he had sex with the escorts.
Prosecutors contend that Palfrey knew the 130 women she employed over 13 years were engaged in prostitution. She claims that she operated a “legal, high-end erotic fantasy service” and that the women signed contracts in which they promised not to have sex with clients. The service charged a flat rate of $275 for 90 minutes, she said.
Palfrey pleaded guilty to pimping charges in 1991 and was sentenced to 18 months in a California prison.
Economics in ReverseMaking energy so expensive that you will become carbon-free.
By David Freddoso
In order to decrease carbon emissions by 33 percent, we would have to remove every existing car and truck from the road (yes, that includes your hybrid), ground every airplane, and shut down every gas station in the United States. In order to bump up from there to a 73-percent decrease in emissions, we would have to shut down most of our electrical grid, with the exception of areas supplied only by nuclear plants, windmills, and dams.
continued at:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MmJjZWYwOWVhZjljNTExNDhlMDQ2YzhjOTNhMDYzMzI=
For Hank,
A yellow Lab puppy. :)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=GpVxsZojPUA
Well, thats just another Op-Ed piece from a traditional right wing rag… Notmuch scientific data in that one… AGAIN… Try another one Repub… The entire point is that EVERYBODY can do SOMETHING to help our environment… What is so darned difficult to understand about that?? And WHY is it that Conservatives are SO AGAINST Conservation??? LOL
NYT”In [the] White House, Debate Is Rising on Iraq Pullback”
“White House officials fear that the last pillars of political support among Senate Republicans for President Bush’s Iraq strategy are collapsing around them, according to several administration officials and outsiders they are consulting. They say that inside the administration, debate is intensifying over whether Mr. Bush should try to prevent more defections by announcing his intention to begin a gradual withdrawal of American troops from the high-casualty neighborhoods of Baghdad and other cities.”
“Four more Republican senators have recently declared that they can no longer support Mr. Bush’s strategy, including senior lawmakers who until now had expressed their doubts only privately. As a result, some aides are now telling Mr. Bush that if he wants to forestall more defections, it would be wiser to announce plans for a far more narrowly defined mission for American troops that would allow for a staged pullback, a strategy that he rejected in December as a prescription for defeat when it was proposed by the bipartisan Iraq Study Group.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/09/washington/09prexy.html?_r=1&th&emc=th&oref=slogin
Here’s another guy that’ll soon be needing a bush pardon.Gonzales was told of FBI violations: report 49 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) – U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales assured Congress in 2005 that the FBI had not abused powers granted under an anti-terrorism law despite having received reports of potential violations, The Washington Post reported in Tuesday editions.
ADVERTISEMENTInternal FBI documents indicate that in the three months before he sought to renew the USA Patriot Act, Gonzales received at least half dozen reports of legal or procedural violations, including one six days before his Senate testimony, the Post said.
Gonzales was sent copies of reports that said administrative rules or laws protecting civil liberties and privacy had been violated, the Post said, citing documents released under the Freedom of Information Act.
Justice officials said they could not immediately determine whether Gonzales read any of the FBI reports in 2005 and 2006, the Post said.
Justice Department spokesman Brian Roehrkasse told the newspaper that when Gonzales testified, he was speaking in the context of reports before this year that found no misconduct or abuses related to the Patriot Act.
The Post said the FBI reports also alerted Gonzales in 2005 to problems with the use of national security letters, which allow the agency to compel the release of private information such as communications or financial records without getting court approval.
FBI officials said in June that agents possibly violated the law or its rules more than 1,000 times since 2002 in collecting data about phone calls, e-mails and financial records while investigating terrorism or espionage suspects.
You just can’t trust that Liberal MSM! They lied to us again!Senator’s number on escort service list By DOUGLASS K. DANIEL, Associated Press Writer2 hours, 4 minutes ago
WASHINGTON – Sen. David Vitter, R-La., apologized Monday night for “a very serious sin in my past” after his telephone number appeared among those associated with an escort service operated by the so-called “D.C. Madam.”
ADVERTISEMENTVitter’s spokesman, Joel Digrado, confirmed the statement in an e-mail sent to The Associated Press.
“This was a very serious sin in my past for which I am, of course, completely responsible,” Vitter said in the statement. “Several years ago, I asked for and received forgiveness from God and my wife in confession and marriage counseling. Out of respect for my family, I will keep my discussion of the matter there — with God and them. But I certainly offer my deep and sincere apologies to all I have disappointed and let down in any way.”
The statement containing Vitter’s apology said his telephone number was on old phone records of Pamela Martin and Associates before he ran for the Senate.
Deborah Jeane Palfrey was accused in federal court of racketeering by running a prostitution ring that netted more than $2 million over 13 years, beginning in 1993. She contends, however, that her escort service, Pamela Martin and Associates, was a legitimate business.
Vitter, 46, a Republican in his first Senate term, was elected to the Senate in 2004. He represented Louisiana’s 1st Congressional District in the House from 1999 to 2004.
Vitter and his wife, Wendy, live in Metairie, La., with their four children.
Palfrey’s attorney, Montgomery Blair Sibley, told the AP, “I’m stunned that someone would be apologizing for this.” He said Palfrey had posted the phone numbers of her escort service’s clients online Monday, but he did not know whether Vitter’s number was among them. Vitter’s statement was sent to the AP’s New Orleans bureau Monday evening.
Palfrey’s Web site contains 20 compressed files of phone records, dating from August 1994 to August 2006. No names are listed, only phone numbers. Palfrey wrote on the Web site that she believed a disk containing the records had been pirated, and wrote that she was posting the records “to thwart any possible distorted version and to ensure the integrity of the information.”
Silas Lee, a political analyst and pollster in New Orleans, spoke Monday about the possible political impact on Vitter.
“In the short term, I think the issue will dominate the discourse for a few days and weeks, and though he’s up for re-election in 2010, it should dissipate by then,” Lee told WWL-TV in New Orleans.
“But for some of his very conservative constituents, it might not be as easy. In their mind and eyes, they may not be able to forgive. The majority may overlook it in time depending on his job performance and how sincere voters believe he wants them to forgive him.”
Earlier this year Palfrey, 51, of Vallejo, Calif., asked the Supreme Court to delay the criminal case against her — a request the court denied in May. Her attorney had argued that it was unfair to proceed against Palfrey because her assets remain seized in a civil forfeiture case, meaning she lacks the money to hire an attorney of her choice.
Randall Tobias, a senior official in the State Department, resigned in April after ABC News confronted him about his use of the escort service. He admitted that he had hired women to come to his Washington condo and give him massages but denied that he had sex with the escorts.
Palfrey threatened for months to release her client list, which led prosecutors to accuse her of trying to intimidate potential witnesses.
Contending that her escort service was legal, Palfrey revealed details of its operation on ABC’s news magazine “20/20″ on May 4. At the time, ABC said it could not link any information provided by Palfrey to members of Congress or White House officials but did find links to prominent business executives, NASA officials and at least five military officers.
Prosecutors contend that Palfrey knew the 130 women she employed over 13 years were engaged in prostitution. She claims that she operated a “legal, high-end erotic fantasy service” and that the women signed contracts in which they promised not to have sex with clients. The service charged a flat rate of $275 for 90 minutes, she said.
Palfrey pleaded guilty to pimping charges in 1991 and was sentenced to 18 months in a California prison.
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