Sen. Russ Feingold (in photo), D-Wis., said on NBC’s "Meet the Press" that he will try again to persuade his colleagues in Congress to censure President Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and perhaps others — this time for the Iraq mess and terrorism-related "assault" on the Constitution. The liberal senator’s persistent desire for accountability is understandable, given the mishandling of the Iraq war. But with the administration getting lamer by the day and partisanship already paralyzing Congress, a censure debate would be time badly misspent.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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108 Comments
et tu Russ?
But, farmgirl, Russ is an honorable man.
That lets Busn off the hook. CUT OFF THE MONEY.
Can a censure resolution be blocked by filibuster? Or does it go to an up-down vote?
I dont think Harry will even let it get that far, Ben. It seems ANY vote can be blocked with the right allies.
Ben, a qualified “yes” to your question. I’m not familiar with Senate rules, but it seems to me that a filibuster on that could be allowed.
Never mind about “al-Qaeda” { the newest slogan }, Bush is killing 125 soldiers a month by people who want us gone.
“Gone” does not make the sky fall.
Censure . . . sheesh.
Go right to impeachment.
Bush does not care about what the People think about him.
Never allow the money to come to a vote.
Fighty dirty is a two-way street.
“Time badly misspent?” Like the time used up by the Republican Minority with 42 filibusters so far this term?
Forget censure. Let’s get impeachment started in the House. If Bush claims that Executive Privilege overrides the House’s Inherent Authority to subpeona witness, Conyers appears to be willing to do impeachment. It’s about time.
Yes, they should go for impeachment.
That way, the Democratic Party will be much more despised by the American public for dragging them through another impeachment. :)
The whole counrty of sane People despise his guts. Are you thinking that the two or three who still like him might go to four? :]
Well, did the public despise those that sought to impeach Nixon?
Who would be despised after an impeachment trial would depend on if there was a conviction or not. With Bush’s approval ratings, if there is a reason to impeach him and his buddies, the majority of the public would be supportive.
I agree brian. The key would be to do it in a very sober and solemn fashion. The real question that I still have is how many Republicans would support it this time around. The GOP is much more regeminted now than it was a quarter-century ago.
Yes brian, the public in general did despise the pardon of Nixon, but were relieved the debate was generally over.
There are some Democrats on this Blog who still bring it up from time to time as there is no forgiveness in their hearts. The concept of forgiveness is totally alien to them.
Yeah impeach him.
I mean this congress has done so much up to this date..what is a couple more months of kicking around sand
What does this have to do with the after-the-fact pardon of Nixon? If Bush resigns and his successor chooses to pardon him then THAT will be the time for this comparison.
Forgiveness cannot occur while the bad actions are continuing.
I was addressing directly the pardon of Nixon Ben.
There is no confusing the two issues the way I wrote it.
Unless there was the occasional ambiguous pronoun.
I agreed with the pardon. I also agreed with the impeachment. In the current situation the pardon is not relevant.
It is nice to see the liberals here who are more concerned about impeaching our President than in stopping terrorism.
What do you expect from the Blame America First crowd?
The kid amd his favorite “slogans” pop-up like toast.
Maybe they figure that going after OBL makes more sense than taking an un-needed detour.
It is not the function of government to keep the citizen from error, it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error.~Justice Robert Jackson
Mr. Feingold:
You could: Use the levers of power which your party now controls, and the rules of the respective legislative bodies as have evolved over the two centuries of the Republic, to enact meaningful legislation which makes substantial policy changes.
Or, lacking that, you could waste time and energy on a meaningless “censure.”
Your call.
Ben,
If that is the case, then where are the plans or calls for going after OBL from the democrats?
It is a nice talking point you think is cute here, but it seems your party is definately not any more interested in finding OBL than we are.
I have yet to see them debate in Congress on finding him.
Where are there calls for the President to go after him or authorization to go into Pakistan to get him?
Apparently you seem to think he is hiding there. So why is your benevolent party not calling for the invasion or bombing?
The only thing the Democrats are interested in is using Iraq to further their political power.
Thats it.
So you can keep telling me that you want to get OBL, but I don’t see your party doing anything about it other than playing politics with the war in Iraq.
“It is a nice talking point you think is cute here”
Like …
“It is nice to see the liberals here who are more concerned about impeaching our President than in stopping terrorism.
What do you expect from the Blame America First crowd?”
Yep, nice talking point you have there Nathan.
Straight from the Zionist’s playbook.
I find GMC’s post…”Mr. Feingold:
You could: Use the levers of power which your party now controls, and the rules of the respective legislative bodies as have evolved over the two centuries of the Republic, to enact meaningful legislation which makes substantial policy changes.
Or, lacking that, you could waste time and energy on a meaningless “censure.”
Your call.”Posted by: GMC70 | July 23, 2007 at 02:40 PM
…to be an affirmation of Rhonda’s OP. Namely, please get serious Democrats! (Rhonda’s made this point a lot around here, sadly).
Not that Augustus Stupidus doesn’t deserve censure. Or more.
It’s just that every American who knows that Bush fully deserves censure has already done so, privately. What is gained by this? Is there any American left who hasn’t made up his or her mind about Bush?
This is a waste of time. Do something meaningful instead. Please be more serious. Why? BECAUSE IT PAYS GREAT DIVIDENDS IN THE FUTURE!
Think of being very serious now as a way to “save” political capital, just as we consumers save dollars for a rainy day (especially with serious, moderate Republicans; note Ben’s point above: you may need such moderates and their votes). I have a feeling that such savings could come in very handy some day (maybe sooner rather than later).
Being conservative with your political capital does NOT imply that others whose opinions you value will call you, or even think you, conservative!
For example. Congress is headed home for the month of August. This is also a time that our US military sheds blood and we US taxpayers borrow against our children’s future in order to secure for the Iraqi government some time off to spend at various resorts around the world. Naturally, this tends to make all red-blooded Americans more than a bit hot under the collar (duh).
Do you not see how a censure now, before the break, lets the Iraqi government utterly off the hook? Do you not see how self-defeating such a censure would be? Do you not see how it cedes the moral high ground to both governments?
And for what gain exactly?
In 1978, Bush and Osama bin Laden’s brother, Salem bin Laden, founded Arbusto Energy, an oil company based in Texas.Several bin Laden family members invested millions in The Carlyle Group, a private global equity firm based in Washington, DC. The company’s senior advisor was Bush’s father, former President George H.W. Bush. After news of the bin Laden-Bush connection became public, the elder Bush stepped down from Carlyle.Interestingly, on Sept. 11, 2001, members of the Carlyle Group – including Bush senior, and his former secretary of state, James Baker – were meeting at the Ritz Carlton Hotel in Washington, D.C., along with Shafiq bin Laden, another one of Osama bin Laden’s brothers.http://www.denverpost.com/rodriguez/ci_4319898http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4293682,00.htmlhttp://www.uni-muenster.de/PeaCon/global-texte/g-notes/BinLaden-Carlyle.htm
Every nation has its war party. It is not the party of democracy. It is the party of autocracy. It seeks to dominate absolutely.~Senator Robert M. La Follette
CS Lewis:
” Only liberal societies tolerate Pacifists. In the liberal society, the number of Pacifists will either be large enough to cripple the state as a belligerent, or not. If not, you have done nothing. If it is large enough, then you have handed over the state which does tolerate Pacifists to its totalitarian neighbor who does not. Pacifism of this kind is taking the straight road to a world in which there will be no Pacifists.”
If we have to run over bush and cheney to get to bin laden, then so be it!
We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty.When the loyal opposition dies,I think the soul of America dies with it.~Edward R. Murrow
The mere act of believing that some wrongful course of action constitutes an advantage is pernicious.~Marcus Tullius Cicero
The dangerous patriot…drifts into chauvinism and exhibits blind enthusiasm for military actions.~Colonel James A. Donovan, Marine Corps
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety”~Benjamin Franklin
Tom, what liberties have you given up??
United States Constitution, Amendment 4 – Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Really,when has that happened…
Tom may be on Bush’s favorite library check out list and email reads….
“The FBI has been under fire recently for its use of National Security Letters (NSL), documents used to access telephone and other electronic records without the approval of a judge. A report from the Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General estimated there were as many as 3,000 violations during the period 2003-2005.”
Nathan,
How completely unlike you to stoop to the level of personal smear.
Oh wait…
Nevermind.
Yes, I have read about that,but you didn’t lose any constitutional rights, unless you think you were one of the people they were mistakenly listening to??
But from what I understand the FBI has amitted to it and that it was wrong, they didn’t hide it or deny it, once they found out it was fixed and has not happened since.unless you think the President was behind it like everybody else
No doubt Tom the FBI was purposely eavesdropping on you. You should be quite worried.
Oh yes, I stooped to such low levels as to insinuate that you may be on Bush’s favorite email reads or library check out list.
Tune in next week when I stoop to even further lows and say that you have bad breath.
I am such a horrible person.
The FBI even reported it to Gonzo., but that didn’t stop him from testifying that the system wasn’t being abused.
Nathan,
I posted a Ben Franklin quote, and you decided to attack me for posting it. Why do you hate Ben Franklin? Why do you hate America, Nathan?
in what paper was that reported in?? because that is one I never read about..
Oh, and Nathan, why do you hate the Constitution? You seem to have a problem with my quoting from that, too.
BG, do try to keep up. Just google “gonzales denies fbi violations”
no American lost a constitutional right.. It may have bveen violated but the FBI apologized for an accidental oversight. and they didn’t hide it..
unless you think we should fire those FBI agents..
Do not waste time on Bush censure – Crybabies and whining brats learn more with a good spanking
BG,
National security letters are secret. The targets of national security letters are secret. The targets aren’t even informed they’re targets. How do YOU know no American lost a Constitutional right?
Hmmm?
“no American lost a constitutional right.. It may have bveen violated but the FBI apologized for an accidental oversight. and they didn’t hide it..unless you think we should fire those FBI agents..Posted by: BG | July 23, 2007 at 04:33 PM ”
Quite a few people that had previously been protected by the US Constitution lost that protection. (i.e. non-citizens)
Tom, how do you know any American lost a Constitutional right?
List them please.
well I assumed by your post above that you had some kind of Info.. little did I know you were just making assumptions..
In fact, as part of the Patriot Act, it is against the law for a library, financial institution, business, etc. from whom information has been requested as part of the Patriot Act to inform either the person the requested information pertained to of the request or any non-need-to-know people at the business of that request.
Kind of hard to provide any oversight with that constraint isn’t it? Or do we prefer ‘Trust us, we’re the Government’ to oversight?
“A report from the Justice Department’s Office of Inspector General estimated there were as many as 3,000 violations during the period 2003-2005.”
BG,
I know you read my earlier post. You even _responded_ to it.
Do you have issues with short-term memory loss?
Good grief. Lay off the drugs, man.
1 in 12 full-time workers admit to having used illegal drugs in the past month, according to a new federal study.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/07/workers-still-u.html
Or do we prefer ‘Trust us, we’re the Government’Posted by: brian | July 23, 2007 at 04:40 PM
In a word: NO.
“Yes, I have read about that,but you didn’t lose any constitutional rights, unless you think you were one of the people they were mistakenly listening to??”
Posted by: BG | July 23, 2007 at 04:18 PM
Wrong. Everyone lost those rights, even if it hasn’t happened to them personally.
It is impossible to trust bushco as they’ve proven untrustworthy.
Tom, one of the tell-tale signs of a troll are the questions you’ve been responding to. Although I admire your patience you may want to walk on by. Trolls are grouchy and you wouldn’t want to be too close and have that attitude rub off.
How does one lose a constitutional right? :)
If the right if violated then it can be presented to a court of law and challenged.
Rest easy fellow Bloggers, except for cosmos and Tom. No doubt of the three thousand, the FBI equally distributed at 60 people per state over 50 states.
Let’s just hope the lottery comes up for cosmos and Tom so they can prove their points of losing their “Constitutional Rights.”
*smirks*
Cosmos,
“You haven’t personally had your rights violated, therefore, all is well with the world” or “You only have to worry about that if you’re a terrorist. Are you a terrorist?”
When anyone makes that argument, I know I’m debating with an idiot. There’s no point in even responding to it, really.
Linda,
The lengths the dead-enders will go to to defend the complete failure that IS the Bush Administration never cease to amaze me. Even when the _Administration_ admits it’s been violating American’s rights, totalling thousands of violations per year, the dead-end trolls deny it’s happening. How people can be so effing stupid, and still remember to breath, is almost unbelievable.
Still waiting on that list of American citizens that have lost their Constitutional Rights.
*taps fingers*
Tom,
Your 5:10 PM post is very true. The fools believe that they STILL have their 4th Amendment rights, despite ’sneak-and-peek’, etc.
Was the Fourth Amendment repealed cosmos?
I don’t recall reading that the Fourth Amendment being removed.
Perhaps GMC or Vaughn can address the removal of the Fourth Amendment as it may affect their courtroom appearances as Legal Counsel. :)
We have all lost a part of our 4th amendment right to unreasonable search. The patriot act gives the government the right to search many things without the knowledge of the person on whom the information is being sought (see my post at 4:35). There have already been many cases where the government acknowledged this patriot act power was abused. Without appropriate oversight to prove contrary built into the Act, the only assumption that can reasonably be made is that these abuses are continuing.
4th Amendment not repealed, but the scope of what is protected under was definitely limited. Therefore, we have indeed lost something that had been previously protected under the Constitution.
Brain,
The government has been doing the same types of things regarding organized crime and drug dealers before the Patriot Act came along.
It merely allowed the same types of searches and seizures against terrorists.
We didn’t loose anything.
Okay brian, I’ll bite…
Now give me the list of American Citizens that have lost their 4th Amendment Rights due to this law.
I’ll kick in a few bucks for their legal fund.
Did you not read my post Kansas? I said all citizens did. The scope of the 4th amendment overall was limited, so everyone that had been protected under the 4th amendment is protected on a few less items.
Nathan – I think there were requirements for Court approval for wiretaps etc. THAT is what was eliminated by Bush. Even FISA Court was too much trouble for him.
GMC70 wrote:
“Mr. Feingold:
You could: Use the levers of power which your party now controls, and the rules of the respective legislative bodies as have evolved over the two centuries of the Republic, to enact meaningful legislation which makes substantial policy changes.
Or, lacking that, you could waste time and energy on a meaningless “censure.”
Your call.”
CF2K has, in the past, remarked positively on GMC70’s intellectual honesty. But the comment above falls far short, since it conveniently fails to note that the Senate’s Republican Minority, led by Mitch McConnell, has called for cloture votes 42 times during the current Congress. That puts them on track to use cloture a projected 153 times by the end of this term.
“Seven months into the current two-year term, the Senate has held 42 “cloture” votes aimed at shutting off extended debate — filibusters, or sometimes only the threat of one — and moving to up-or-down votes on contested legislation. Under Senate rules that protect a minority’s right to debate, these votes require a 60-vote supermajority in the 100-member Senate.
Democrats have trouble mustering 60 votes; they’ve fallen short 22 times so far this year. That’s largely why they haven’t been able to deliver on their campaign promises.”
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/226/story/18218.html
So if you want to accuse anyone of failing to do the public’s business, GMC70, get it straight: Republicans have taken it upon themselves to monkeywrench the current Congress. They have consistently blocked every piece of major legislation to come before the Senate this term. If they can’t control the agenda, so their thinking goes, they can at least gridlock the system and then dare Democrats to do as Republicans themselves did, and deny the minority its rights by changing Senate rules.
It is extremely cynical, GMC70, and quite disingenuous to lay the blame for the Senate’s failure at the feet of majority Democrats, since it has been minority Republicans who have held the Senate hostage. It is the Republicans who are in the process of burning down the Congress and abandoning the rule of law.
Given all this, I think Senator Feingold’s proposal does far too little rather than far too much. Republicans spent seven years blocking any oversight of the Bush Administration, and now that the shoe is on the other foot, they have a vested interest in keeping daylight from being shone on what they enabled.
That’s the real story, GMC70. It is beneath you to pretend otherwise.
“It merely allowed the same types of searches and seizures against terrorists.We didn’t loose anything.Posted by: Nathan | July 23, 2007 at 05:35 PM ”
Not really Nathan. They were donevia different methods, with more oversight, more control, and less subjectivity.
And the Patriot Act does not limit who it pertains to. It does not say these things can only be used against terrorists, rather they can be used in any terrorist or terrorism related investigation. Alot of peoples info can be looked through advertantly or inadvertantly while conducting a terrorist investigation.
List please…
I don’t think the WEBlog editors would appreciate me listing all 300 Million+ Americans here.
Brian,
It’s useless. Even when it’s pointed out that the government _ADMITTED_ 3000+ violations, the trolls keep insisting it never happened.
Brain,
You are wrong. The administration still has to go through the same checks and balances that were in place before the Patriot Act regarding the same exact types of searches and seizures of drug dealers and organized crime.
The Patriot Act is very specific about the scope of it’s authority.
Point me to the Website where I can find these 3000+ violations on American Citizens.
I want to investigate this myself. :)
Nathan
Why do you have so much trouble telling the truth?
“As former Attorney General Janet Reno told the 9/11 commission, “Generally everything that’s been done in the Patriot Act has been helpful, I think, while at the same time maintaining the balance with respect to civil liberties.”
“Falsehood, according to Mark Twain’s famous dictum, gets halfway around the world before the truth even gets its shoes on. Time and again, outlandish stories seem to grow legs and find wide distribution before the truth can catch up.”
Source: The Heritage Foundation
Kansas,
Apparently they really fear that Bush is reviewing their weekly Library check outs.
It says it right there in the Patriot Act didn’t you know?
Section 807.a.6:
The President may at his leisure review the library activity of any/all people he feels like at that moment.
immediately following:
All emails of everyone will be forwarded to the President so that he may browse them at his pleasure.
And right after that:
The Patriot Act suspends the 4th Amendment and the President may enter anyones home he feels like snooping around in.
Of course, how the Democrats ever let it get out of Congress I don’t know.
It was plain as day the abuse of power which was written into it.
Note to Nathan:
sarcasm is a rhetorical tool whose use is best left to clever people.
CF,
He’s not being sarcastic. I think he just hates the Constitution, and hates America.
Why else would he, like his failure of a president, take an oath to _defend_ the Constitution, and then spend so much energy _mocking_ it?
Anyway, I’m off for the evening.
You must vote “yes” to the “Patriot Act and “no” to the “Treasonous Act” and always fight “Terrorism,” even if it pretends to be a bar of soap in the soap-dish on the sink.
Now, write that down, Nathan, with your crayon.
Yes Nathan, but you forgot to add one thing.
When people buy Kansas Lottery Tickets on a credit or debit card, that information is sent to the White House and the IRS just in case they win a substantial amount of cash.
Also, each time they fill up at their local QT (which stands for Quiet Technology not Quick Trip) the government has secret spy cameras that records license plates, has your photo and also tracks your credit or debit card to make sure you are not fueling your car for subversive activities.
And of course, this information is sent directly to the White House in which George and Laura have popcorn and watch QT videos for entertainment, laughing the hardest at the ones going to the gas station in jogging suits or housecoats.
(chortles)
“As former Attorney General Janet Reno told the 9/11 commission, “Generally everything that’s been done in the Patriot Act has been helpful, I think, while at the same time maintaining the balance with respect to civil liberties….Source: The Heritage Foundation”Posted by: Kansas | July 23, 2007 at 06:04 PM
The old TRUNCATED sentence trick.
‘Transcript: 9/11 Commission Hearing’ (emphasis added)http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9088-2004Apr13.html“RENO: But generally everything that’s been done in the Patriot Act has been helpful I think while at the same time maintaining the balance with respect to civil liberties, EXCEPT WITH RESPECT TO ONE MATTER….But one issue is with respect to FISA searches. I don’t have all the details with me, but that would be one area that I would like to learn more about in terms of the administration’s perspective….GORTON: So of all of the provisions of the act, the one that you believe requires the most discussion and concern without having a specific position is those search authorities?
RENO: Yes. “
Of course, Kansas, you forgot crop circles. Or did you leave them deliberately out? One must wonder, as those in the know have intimate knowledge that can only be gleaned from the crop circle distinct patterns.
I am, at this moment, writing on this blog by thought alone. I learned this power while traveling with my companion dog, Fungusamongus. We had come upon a recent crop circle,while walking to the local QT (Quik Trip, for those initially challanged).
The circle, in a corn crop . . .full heads, White Queen variety-tasty . . . Was composed of nothing but 60 deg angles, laid upon a base of thirteen circles of various sizes, and in a semi-planet alignment arrangement.
I recognized the pattern as the key to thought transmission, and here I am.
By the way, your mother never did like you.
No loss of civil liberties under Bushco? Get real; as Ed says, step away from the crayon.
Dissenters and those protesting have been subjected to harassment. Here are some documented cases.
http://www.thenewpress.com/index.php?option=com_title&task=view_title&metaproductid=1658
http://cliffschecter.blogspot.com/2007/07/man-walked-up-to-dick-cheney-calmly.html
Here’s the FOIA files that the NYPD collected on peaceful protesters at the RNC in 2004, who had been detained by the FBI.
http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0649,hentoff,75194,2.html
http://villagevoice.com/blogs/bushbeat/archive/2004/02/its_confirmed_p.php
CF2K had relatives who perished in the Nazi camps. He knows fascism when he sees it. And he’s seeing in the Bush Administration’s crackdown on dissent, secret prisons, and surveillance of American citizens. He doesn’t need Wingnuts telling him to believe them or his own lyin’ eyes.
Don’t even pretend to care about the Constitution or the Bill of Rights, Nathan, or any of you other Wingnuts. Your allegiance to Bushco drowns everything else out.
CF2K,
Oh yes, the comparison to Nazi camps and fascism once again.
Isn’t it funny how Democrats accuse others of what they resemble more?
Yes CF2K, I too use Blogs as my official source of information (cough, spew, sputter, wheeze)
:D
Nathan,
Nazis were ultra Right-Wingers (Joe Williams’ nonsensical sputterings to the contrary). Remember that.
The resemblance between you and your ideological brethren (surveillance, camps, torture, crackdowns) is becoming increasingly difficult to deny. That’s why your denials sound increasingly frantic and strained.
Note to CF2K:
Right and Left in European societies are much different than those in the U.S.
Heck, even Liberals back in the day at the founding of our nations had a completely different meaning.
I think you need to re-take some history classes CF2K.
“Yes CF2K, I too use Blogs as my official source of information (cough, spew, sputter, wheeze)”
Posted by: Kansas, the many-named lying troll | July 23, 2007 at 08:54 PM
The troll doesn’t bother with “sources”. He just fabricates lies to support his incorrect opinions.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/07/open-thread-713.html#comment-75802340
Ya’ll are rah-rahing for a group that has lower approval ratings than the Prez. Not a party, but Congress as a whole(or maybe as a hole). Maybe you adore the underdog because you identify.
Nathan,
Here’s a further one: arrests of Iraq War veterans for “political protest.”
http://www.ivaw.org/node/763
John E. Huston,
Indeed we are–Congress is all that remains between The People and unchecked Executive power.
Sorry, my bad: WE The People.
CF2K,
That is your example of the brutal repression bush is doing?
LOL
The guy was causing a nuisance.
LOL
You are too much CF2K.
Cut-off of the funding.
Yes, they should go for impeachment.
That way, the Democratic Party will be much more despised by the American public for dragging them through another impeachment. :)
Posted by: Kansas
Actuallyk, Kansas, the majority of Americans would welcome the impeachment of Bush and Cheney. And as for going through another impeachment – the Clinton impeachment was done by the Republicans out of revenge for the Clintons. The Bush/Cheney impeachment would be done out of necessity to take our country back from these two would-be emperors. The Bush Administration has granted themselves extraordinary executive powers. The Bush Administation has gone too far in the tyrant mode and the majority of Americans do not believe one word that comes from Bush’s mouth. That is why this impeachment would be welcomed – and probably encouraged by the rest of the global leaders.
The concept of forgiveness is totally alien to them.
Posted by: Kansas
Hey – have you forgiven Bill Clinton yet? When you do, then we’ll talk about the Democrats forgiving Nixon.