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Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted July 20, 2007 at 1:00 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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42 Comments
CCH holders are not the problem.
In stories that run every day in the Eagle, we see evidence of guns and criminal behavior in an increasing level of violence in this city and state. While many of those events occur in circles of drug use and gang activity, some invariably “spills out” to the world of “innocent” bystanders.People are alarmed, and want to defend themselves. They have that right, through the Second Amendment, and the Kansas Constitution. The only real defense against a gun is a gun. It doesn’t necessarily have to be bigger; just the knowledge that a victim might fire back can deter a criminal.That’s the essence of the CCH (Concealed Carry Handgun) permit. People should have a right to defend themselves, possessing a gun is not a crime, and if the criminals think they might encounter resistance, they very well might shop elsewhere for a place to conduct their business. The deterrent effect of a state that allows CCH is that the bad guys don’t know if there might be somebody in there who might fire back at them. Concealment is critical to this deterrent. Those carrying “openly” are targeted to be “hit” as the crime unfolds. This is why those of us who have the CCH permit do not want to be known as such. Some of us are fairly visible members of the community, and if it were common knowledge that we had a CCH permit, the deterrence is gone, and we might be targeted ourselves.Our state has some of the highest standards regarding the acquisition of the CCH permit. An eight hour, $125 course, a $150 application, a 55 day wait, an FBI background check, and a $12 trip to the DMV. Just the trip to the DMV alone must be enough to defer some hopefuls!
Here’s the interesting statistics. The CCH permit has been in place for over six months. As of July 1st, the Attorney General has issued just over 8400 permits, with about another 800 in the works. Let’s assume for the moment that we have 9200 permit holders on August first.This number, 9200, represents only 0.44% of the adult population of Kansas. In other words, in a room of 228 adult Kansans, you would find only ONE CCH permit holder.So let’s imagine a room, say a movie theater, with 228 adults, all Kansans. No children in this example, no non-residents.
Of this group, only ONE would be a licensed CCH holder. He or she may or may not be armed. Believe it or not, we don’t all “carry” all the time.Another part of the population who are also allowed to carry guns because of their duties are also in the room. On and off duty police, highway patrol, sheriffs, FBI, etc, are there, too. Let’s say there are maybe eight or so of them in the mix.Another part of the group is also armed. They are breaking the law. They are carrying for their own protection, and can’t or won’t receive permission; they nevertheless quietly carry their gun when in public. This is a real hard number to estimate, but perhaps Law Enforcement authorities could help with this assessment, based on the weapons status of the numbers of people they interact with. Even this might be inaccurate, because they interact with more bad people than good people. Let’s just guess, out of 228, there might be 10 or more of these.Finally, we have the Bad Guys. The “real” criminals, who are carrying their guns with the intent of perpetrating a crime. Make no mistake, these guys are out there, prowling, looking for an opportunity, or “casing the joint.” When an opportunity presents itself, these hyenas will strike. Let’s say there are three of them in this theater.All totaled, perhaps 22 guns in the room. The ONLY one affected by the “Do Not Carry” sign is the first one. He/she is the only law-abiding person who will obey the sign. Law Enforcement is not affected by the sign, and of course, the “unpermitted,” and “Bad Guys” pay no attention to the sign anyway. They have always, and will always, carry their guns wherever they want.So all of the hoopla about “vigilante” CCH shootings, as predicted, has been unfounded. Yet out of this group only ONE person is harassed, urged to shop elsewhere, and considered “guilty” without any misbehavior on his/her part. All while exercising a freedom guaranteed in the same Bill of Rights as the other personal freedoms of religion, free speech, et al.It’s time to recognize the folly of these “gunbuster” signs. The signs agitate the innocent and timid, while emboldening the Bad Guys. To them, the sign means, “Come in and do your bad guy business here! Nobody will shoot back!” Business owners, take those signs down, and quit worrying about a non-problem. Be glad, instead, that you just might have one more “good guy” in the room.
Canadians Dropping Out?
“A Canadian developer who had proposed turning Century II in to a casino has dropped the idea.
Brian Hamm, president of Nova Growth Corp. of Toronto, had for several years considered buying and retrofitting Century II and the Hyatt Regency Wichita into a casino complex. He said the city didn’t support the idea…
…Music Theatre, which regularly polls audience members about matters that could affect their desire to attend its events, included questions about downtown gambling on a recent questionnaire.
Results as of Thursday showed that 1,926 people believe downtown gambling would be “detrimental and problematic for Sedgwick County overall,” while 624 said it would be good for the county, Bryan said.
Other results:
• 915 would welcome a casino in Sedgwick County, but not as part of the downtown corridor.
• 436 would welcome a casino next to Century II, but not one that replaces it.
• 99 said a casino would be welcome within Century II.
• 238 had no opinion.”
kansas dot com story at:http://kansas.com/news/story/127013.html
More thoughts on Concealed Handguns
Criminal use of a weapon, such as robbery, murder, and rape always has the weapon as an aid to the “bad guy” [or bad woman] who was going to do their crime with whatever weapon they had at the moment. No permit is sought by the “bad guy” for doing their crime, neither is a waiting period or other license. Some people seem to hope that criminals will give advance notice that they plan to attack the QT or Kum&Go and so regulation will deter the crime making everybody safer.
Life doesn’t work that way. In the real world, United States citizens, and Kansas residents 21 years of age, with a “clean record” spend substantial amounts of time and money and then wait up to 3 months for a permit that allows them to protect their family in public places.
These CCH permit holders are, as a group, more law-abiding than law enforcement officers. We are not vigilantees out looking for criminals like Charles Bronson in the Death Wish movies. We will avoid any place that is “known” to be dangerous because we do not want to “be involved with a shooting.”
But since criminals seek places with people to rob, women to rape, and do so by surprise, which place is safe? Any place may be the scene of a serious crime, it might be the ATM at your bank, the parking lot at your church after an evening prayer, it could be the grocery store or pharmacy.
When permit holders see the signs posted that indicate “no concealed weapons” we know it only means no “lawfully concealed weapons allowed here for licensed citizens for legal self-defense” and we think that it is an insult.
Therefore we will not do business with those places because of the insult and because we feel they are making their customers and employees tragets for mad-men and killers such as happened at Virginia Tech, another gun free, “unarmed victim zone.”
Blah, blah gun nuts…
No gun signs cost business money, yawn.
Going unarmed is cowardly, whatever. Most of America refuses to be armed.
Former soldiers went through world wars, in their homes, no guns.
Criminals exist, most don’t over worry about them and shouldn’t.
People can be caught unaware and they have a gun which will serve self no defense purpose.
Since people are generally sloppy somewhere in their life, most guns aren’t cleaned or stored properly.
People don’t lock doors at home, so their sloppy about self defense there.
They don’t lock car doors and a criminal at stop lights could possibly jump in.
They don’t wear seat beats self defending themselves against death in a car accident.
Now onto more progressive developments for this community.
The Canadians have no “stones” as developers or they are playing possum a little bit, because some local business leaders who don’t want Century II sold are making a stink.
The Canadians could still do their Casino project next to Century II without owning that building.
The key thing for Wichita if Casino vote passes, City can hope to sell the Hyatt.
Library wants to move because they need a larger building for their stuff.
There are other potential sites but I liked that one. Casino would face the river tucked behind Century II.
It wouldn’t be overbearing on city streets.
Ruffin having 800 slots at the dog track is unlikely to win with his casino idea. Topeka won’t allow him to control all the slots in this County.
Casino plans have been talked about but which developer is really going to put a plan together after the vote is possibly approved?
“Topeka won’t allow him to control all the slots in this County. ”
Mrage… Ruffin spends more money on lobbyist than anyone else out here. He could easily own both the casino and the slots at the track.
So far Ruffin has the only real proposal for a downtown arena. CII wont be sold, maybe the Hyatt might be, but the likely hood of that happening i bet would be slim.
I think the Broadview would be perfect for a casino and be the better choice.
Tony,
Don’t we want competition with slots? I do!
Ruffin’s casino fate still to be determined in Topeka because how the gambling legislation is written. He’ll be allowed to offer a plan if the vote is approved.
He’s walking a fine line, operator of the casino building but not owner of that gambling license.
Why is Broadview a better location? Would the casino take over that lot and empty parking space next door? We don’t know size of a casino put in that location.
competition? How can you compete in slots? make half cent slots?
Broadview would be better for multiple reasons… Yes, they would have to take the parking lot to the north to build the new gambling floor. The casino could build a very nice river front restaurant, casino floor, etc… The majority of the infrastructure is already there… There is already a parking garage, a hotel, restaurant and space to expand.
The hotel could be expanded easily to include a second tower over the new casino floor. The casino floor could extend out to the river front where it could open up to more restaurants that open out to the river…
If the Hyatt were sold and CII were not, than there is a competing interest there. Also, the current Hyatt ball room would most likely be the new gaming floor, thus loosing a large amount of ball room.
Mrage – “Canadiand drop C-II proposal”
DID YOU READ THE ARTICLE? DID YOU READ THE PART THAT SAID THEIR PLAN WAS IN C-II? JUST LIKE I SAID AL ALONG WHILE YOU KEPT CLAIMING IT WAS NOT.
Just like when you claimed your Arena was 17,000 seats for basketball and I was a liar for contradicting you.
Their plan was IN Century II.
As for Ruffin you claim that “Topeka won’t allow him to control all the slots in this County.” – BACK UP THAT CLAIM!
I don’t care if you don’t WANT Ruffin to control – back up your claim that Topeka won’t allow it.
Just like your claim that it was a done deal that Chiltons will leave. YOU’RE BLOWING SMOKE.
Ben,
You should have read the article better.
>The plan called for a $300 million facility for Century II that included 100,000 square feet for a casino, retail shops, restaurants, entertainment facilities, and meeting and convention areas.
>The plan also called for a 400-room hotel to be built on the west side of Century II.
>The plan would have left Century II and the Expo Hall in its current configuration, but would have required relocating the downtown public library.
The Canadians Casino would have been located next to Century II. Maybe the interiors combined but doors to seperate noise from casino noise entering Century II.
Did you vote with other Music Theater folks? One of the undecided?
Most of them want a casino, though unsure they want it should be downtown and if it negatively affected Century II.
Ruffin helped write himself out of the Casino legislation. Just months ago, he wanted no part of state owned Casino’s.
You believe he talked Trump into it ownership of the casino license, yet? Probably not.
Ruffin just picked the Delano area for a casino building and will have to whip up a drawing fast for the general public to see prior to voting.
Like we get competition buying the same products from different stores, I want a choice of businesses with slot machines.
Someday Chilton’s is likely to relocate if the parking plan requires them to do that.
They will be properly compensated and have much time to find other space. Building that parking lot isn’t needed so fast.
The City is likely to pay for some Arena parking costs! The Horror!
Mrage:
When you begin posting with complete, articulate sentences instead of the fifties-style beatnik stream of consciousness BS, people MAY begin to take you seriously.
Your posts show that you have no REAL knowledge of weapons and weapons laws, and they only serve to expose your prejudice against guns.
Hey Nathan, if I recall you recommended the Springfield XD 45.
Had the chance to compare the Springfield with the new Glock 21 SF (small frame) side by side.
Oh, sooooo close, couldn’t decide.
Any reccomendations either way?
They both shoot +P ammo?
I do like the flexibility and concealability of the XD with the 10 round smaller mag and 13 round extended mag.
After reading Marge’s posts though, maybe I should get the 15 round Para Ordanace 45.
postal,
Pay your NRA dues and be happy.
Follow the No Guns Allowed signs and leave security up to businesses.
Did you see the stories recently about bank security. Some banks don’t want armed guards and hostage situations to happen.
Why wouldn’t a bank want armed guards before the convenience store?
Business robberies happen more often without deaths occurring, than some clerk being shot dead by a criminal.
Your CCH is self defense. Some think they are society’s extra police force. The little class training and no continuous guidance how the gun is cleaned or stored.
Police have inspections. What private citizen with CC license has their weapon and gun storage procedures inspected?
Police have higher authority, citizens only have themselves to make judgments in the street when seeing a crime.
Police like to call backup too.
Stick to defending yourself and vote less for what the NRA wants.
Politicians need to control guns falling into criminal hands and they are doing a poor job of it.
The ATF is hindered by NRA affected politicians. For two years NRA didn’t shut any bad gun dealer down. What’s that about? They found violations but real slow to close any gun store.
That is a typo,
For two years ATF didn’t shut bad gun dealers down.
“facility for Century II that included 100,000 square feet for a casino”
Note that C-II was an integral part of their casino proposal. NOT just next door as you claim.
“Someday Chilton’s is likely to relocate if the parking plan requires them to do that.” YOU FALSELY CLAIMED IT WAS A DONE DEAL!
“They will be properly compensated and have much time to find other space.” WHERE WILL YOU GET THE MONEY? THE COUNTY HAS ALREADY SAID THEY DON’T HAVE IT.
“The City is likely to pay for some Arena parking costs! The Horror!” THAT GOES COUNTER TO WHAT THE COUNTY PROMISED. ARE YOU CALLING THE COUNTY A BUNCH OF LIARS? ARE YOU CALLING THE VOTE YEA! CROWD LIARS?
You have got to be kidding me !! You are niave. I worked in the “system” and most people have no clue how much is going on out there on the streets. About only 5% of violent events ever make the news. Police Officers, Court workers, etc. all “joke” that everyone would move out of town in a flash if they had any clue how many “violent” crimes are really going on. Ask the next police officer you see.
I dealt with violent criminals, and you can “yawn” if you want, but they would kill someone without thinking about it and eat lunch afterwards without a thought. Most of them will look for people like you. You can be a “victim” if you want, but most CCL holders realize what it is really like and have chosen to not be a victim.
The “signs” are not going to stop any criminal from robbing the place, sticking the employees and customers in the freezer and shooting them (as has occurred), or anything else. They are MORE likely to go into a posted business, then a non-posted business. That sure doesn’t make me feel safe. The guy at Virginia Tech forgot to read the “no gun ” signs there, didn’t he.
And, when in the world has ANY business done anything toward our safety ?? You have got to be kidding……
The reason in banks… is most bank robbers are not going to try to shoot or silence all of the people possible in a bank… they want the money and to leave. In a convenience store…. they don’t want to leave witnesses & it is more easily controlled by the gunman. That’s why.
Every Deputy, Police officer, etc I’ve asked about it… are very glad to know there are CCL holders out there and very supportive of it. Because they get tired of seeing the bodies of the victims, rather then the criminals.
Ben,
I’ll stand on that statement, Century II and Expo Center wasn’t going to change. Both kept in their current configuration.
Casino would be connected to Century II, next door.
It doesn’t matter now that the Canadians seemingly abandoned that plan. Seems weird to spend so much time and effort, then walk away from the location.
Canadians may not understand City didn’t want to sell Century II like I always said.
They couldn’t buy it, but the plan could still be viable if they are patient enough for the vote.
It may be a public statement so those scared of Century II being sold, will now vote yes if casino is placed in another location.
If the Library wants to move, the City has to help them do it. City has to sell Hyatt eventually. This is their best opportunity.
I want the County to spend every nickel it can on the amenities inside the Arena.
If they make a deal with City about Arena parking costs, that’s their business to do.
Until all the tax is collected, you can’t assume what the County is failing to afford.
David,
Assaults happen and their bloody. Thefts occur constantly. Crazy circumstances are described on some police reports.
News lacks details the horror of crimes happening when its fresh. It takes news a couple of days to catch up with details.
I’m never a victim unless caught unaware. I despise that thinking unarmed people lack courage.
Every death caused by a criminal is a tragedy. After the fact thinking can’t absolve that horrible moment. If he/she had a gun they might have survived.
Police don’t want to see victims and its frank talk, they can’t be everywhere.
Police with guns fear criminals without weapons, why is that?
Criminals without fear of being shot can possibly close the distance pretty fast.
People unarmed and challenged by a criminal with a gun could possibly do the same thing.
You might imagine scenario’s how to make a difference with a gun.
You could be wrong because your not trained for that. You don’t repeat that training for those scenerio’s constantly like police do.
Your assuming with a gun, you’ll make a difference from one point of view.At crime scenes there are variety of views how the scene played out.
If you need a gun to feel safe, fine. Some don’t feel that need, its not being naive.
Business is responsible for their security and they take it seriously. Video is better today and business has to take advantage of technology. Whatever crime happens, video should capture the scene.
Business is right to fear shootouts between criminals and unknown CC person. No Guns Allowed signs get put up to announce those fears.
It doesn’t mean the business has dropped security responsibility
Doors that chime when opened make a security statement. It sounds like a record is being kept on all those who enter.
Convenience stores should act like Quicktrips with multiple employees at all hours. Tragically criminals with guns have shot clerks.
Quicktrip still isn’t arming their clerks. Are they allow CC workers to have guns in there? Probably not.
Business has a right to restrict guns on their property.
“Century II and Expo Center wasn’t going to change. Both kept in their current configuration.
Casino would be connected to Century II, next door.
It doesn’t matter now that the Canadians seemingly abandoned that plan. Seems weird to spend so much time and effort, then walk away from the location.”
They backed down Mrage, because WE BACKED THEM DOWN! Their plan was to be IN Century II; not just nearby. We stood our ground. They backed down. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Maybe now City ‘leaders’ (sic) can get the bowling tournament back.
” I want the County to spend every nickel it can on the amenities inside the Arena. ”
So, you want them to take even more of MY money to spend on YOUR Arena. Why don’t YOU offer to contribute more for YOUR Arena? Why don’t you get those corporations you claim to talk to to pony up some money?
“If they make a deal with City about Arena parking costs, that’s their business to do.”
More of MY money for YOUR Arena. County promised me that would not happen. I have that in writing.
” It may be a public statement so those scared of Century II being sold, will now vote yes if casino is placed in another location.”
Keep hoping Mrage; my prediction stands.
Ben is right. The Canadian investors backed out of the Century II plan, because they found out it would be a very unpopular site for people here in the Wichita area who put a lot of emphasis on that it shouldn’t be a casino site.
They didn’t back out however. Tom Docking said they are scouting other sites, including possible site south of LD Stadium next to the Ice Rink.
I’m finding it interesting that they (Casino guys) are thinking about the west side of the River.
Joe is correct; the Canadian group is looking at other possibilities. I will be very curious to see what they come up with. Unfortunately there is little time remaining unless they simply plan to wait until after the vote.
I have noted that the uncertainties of the location has hurt the chances for passage. It was interesting to read the two polls done by the Business Journal – (a) should we have casino and (b) if so where? (a) loses about 60-40 and (b) was for NOT downtoen by a similar percentage. Seems THAT group at least is not in favor of the WDDC downtown idea.
Two weeks and a few days …
Perhaps the best location:
“Hamm lately has studied locations south of the Hyatt in the WaterWalk area”
Tie it to the Hyatt as others have suggested but from the south instead of the north. A nice ‘gateway’ restaurant in the Boathouse. Then fill in the space between there and Kellogg.
Ben,
Within the Music Theatre group majority want a casino, right?
• 915 would welcome a casino in Sedgwick County, but not as part of the downtown corridor.
• 436 would welcome a casino next to Century II, but not one that replaces it.
• 99 said a casino would be welcome within Century II.
• 238 had no opinion.
Your prediction failed there. Some the most sensitive affected by a Casino NEXT to Century II, still want one.
That’s not the party crowd either!
If you think your responsible for backing down a Billionaire, keep dreaming.
Politics played a part more than anything else. City never put it directly to the Canadians, they were never going to sell Century II.
Tom Docking walked the fence on this taking the check from Canadians but unable to calm the political situation down.
I don’t sense a blowup happened at all. Brian Hamm doesn’t want his plan to be so criticized it causes people to vote No.
I want the County to spend much of the tax on amenities inside the Arena. You can’t take your Yes vote back.
I’m suggesting to corporates they help increase seating and a little more size in the Arena. The VIP parking on site could be reduced.
The corporate shouldn’t have to improve the amenities.
Let’s hope a corporate partner finds marketing value in the arena and your fear of County raising taxes in the future could be diminished.
“some” – but a MINORITY Mrage. My prediction stands.
“Within the Music Theatre group majority want a casino, right?” WRONG! 915 in favor but OUTSIDE downtown while 1926 opposed overall.
The Canadian group wanted IN C-II; they have backed down on that.
“I want the County to spend much of the tax on amenities inside the Arena. You can’t take your Yes vote back.”
THAT NARROW YES VOTE WAS FOR 184.5 MILLION THAT WAS TO INCLUDE PARKING AND INFRASTRUCTURE. The voters did NOT approve what you want.
” The corporate shouldn’t have to improve the amenities.”
Then that should ALL come from the $184.5 million approved. NOT from additional UNAPPROVED taxes.
“Let’s hope a corporate partner finds marketing value in the arena and your fear of County raising taxes in the future could be diminished.”
DREAM ON! Maybe YOU better get right onto that!
In 2 1/2 weeks we will see if my prediction is correct.
Postal, don’t you realize Mrage is posting as coherently as he can? The sad part is that he’s not even embarrassed.
But when a person’s sole reason for posting is to get the public to pay for your personal pleasure, and then once that is agreed upon, to complain that it isn’t just what I want, what could possibly be embarrassing to such a person?
It is nothing more than the selfish pleading of special interests, this time the interests of sports fans.
Now I am sure that Mrage, and Joe Williams too, have convinced themselves that the interests of sports fans and fans going to concerts justifies the tax.
That’s the way of big-government statists.
It’s sad that someone who claims to be a libertarian thinks this way.
But Mrage, go for it. It’s all about you, isn’t it?
An interesting contrast between the Arena on the one hand and the Zoo, Music Theater, Arts museums, Exploration place and so many others on the other hand. We see HUGE support from individuals and corporations for the latter things. Just look at the list in the Music Theater program. Look at the exhibits at the zoo.
Mrage keeps telling us about all the corporate types he is buddies with. BUT – where is the support?
I wonder if they are alums of Wichita SHOCKER University?
Yep, you are niave. You are leaving your chances in the hands of a criminal who has a gun pointed at your head, that he won’t shoot you so there is not a witness.The CARR brothers are a perfect example. And, many robberies are turning to house invasions, rather then of businesses. NO CCL wants a shoot-out in any business full of people, but as in many circumstances … where CCL’s have handed robbers their money & ready to leave it at that… when the robbers started to shove them into the back room and it was obvious that the intent was to shoot the witnesses, some CCL’s shot the criminals instead and the police didn’t have to come and pick up the victim’s bodies, but those of the criminals.
A lot of CCL’s are trained, I know I am… same training as the police on tactics, and I worked in the system and carried due to violent offenders we dealt with. I have taken many weapons off people who had guns pointed to someone’s head, and / or were shooting at us.
You are making bad assumptions of CCL holders. Many are Ex police officers, retired police officers, military, and those that attend training (the same type as police officers) all the time. On top of this, you obviously don’t realize how many of the CCL holders now out there in Kansas, are women… not men.
Maybe you should learn the facts, before you spout out the rhetoric you are.
The only guns that businesses are restricting, are CCL holders…. not those who carry illegally and who could care less about signs, laws, training, or licenses. Obviously, you are not aware how many there are of those out there. Again, ask any Police officer. I know Officers afraid to walk into places that most people think are very safe, because of the amount of people they find carrrying guns “illegally”.
http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/4.2/GunFacts4-2-Screen.pdf
I recommend you look it up and read it in whole.
Fact: After passing their concealed carry law, Florida’s homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below, and remains it below the national average (as of the last reportingperiod, 2005).Fact: The serious crime rate in Texas fell 50% faster than the national average after Texaspassed a concealed carry law in 1995.
Fact: States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.
Fact: Deaths and injuries from mass public shootings fall dramatically after right-to-carry concealed handgun laws are enacted. Between 1977 and 1995, the average death rate from mass shootings plummeted by up to 91% after such laws went into effect, and injuries dropped by over 80%.
Fact: People with concealedcarry permits are:• 5.7 times less likely to be arrested for violent offenses than the general public• 13.5 times less likely to be arrested for non-violent offenses than the general public
Fact: 66% of police chiefs believe that citizens carrying concealed firearms reduce rates ofviolent crime.
Comments by Police Chiefs who were against Conceal/ Carry :“All the horror stories I thought would come to pass didn’t happen …I think it’s workedout well, and that says good things about the citizens who have permits. I’m a convert.”I … [felt] that such legislation present[ed] a clear and present danger to law-abidingcitizens by placing more handguns on our streets. Boy was I wrong. Our experience in HarrisCounty, and indeed statewide, has proven my fears absolutely groundless”.
Fact: “…most criminals are more worried about meeting an armed victim than they are aboutrunning into the police.”
I have seen this question presented to offenders in prison, and they are admamantly afraid of “armed citizens” and stated they would rob a “posted business” way before any unposted business.
Fact: 11% of police shootings kill an innocent person – about 2% of shootings by citizens kill an innocent person.
david – I am one of those who remains uncertain about CC. I think an excellent point is made that having armed citizens can help nail the bad guys. On the other hand; having guns readily accessable in bars etc might lead to bad outcomes.
Just don’t know …
Ben,
Surely CC don’t drink and carry! In bars, their drinking pop.
Shootings or shootouts there tend to happen out in the dark parking lots.
The idea is Wichita Shockers University,yet to be voted on.
Ridicule the arena and goals to improve it. Someday it will open and we’ll see what happens.
Ridicule the Casino idea as well, unless it’s Ruffin’s plan?
Predict what the Chamber is going to do, why wait two weeks. Will the Chamber support the Casino or not?
“Ridicule the Casino idea as well, unless it’s Ruffin’s plan?”
So you are endorsing the Ruffin plan? That;s fine. I have NOT endorsed Ruffin’s plan. You know that.
“Will the Chamber support the Casino or not?”
“The idea is Wichita Shockers University,yet to be voted on. ”
WHEN? BY WHOM?
I don’t know. I have no connections with the Chamber. My prediction has to do with the people.
“Ridicule the arena and goals to improve it. Someday it will open and we’ll see what happens.”
I am ridicling your efforts to go against the Arena vote. The Arena vote INCLUDED parking and loss reserves. The vote did NOT include your luxury boxes.
“In bars, their drinking pop.”
I HAVE A BRIDGE FOR SALE.
Mrage – you like to brag about all your ‘corporate’ connections – how about YOUR prediction about the Chamber?
Ben,
How can you just not know?
Look at the data in over 40 States who have had Concealed carry for over 2 decades.
Where are all these Bar shootings?
David,
I’m affected by stories they describe shootings in the head and body when people are asleep.
House can be broken into by robbers and they enter bedroom to shoot people.
Do you lock your bedroom door, no matter locking rest of house with the alarm system on?
Spouse can shoot the other.
I just read a couple sleeping on edge of lake in the mountains of California, shot dead in their sleeping bags repeatedly.
I don’t know why workers would go into the freezer if robbers with a gun threaten them. They should huddle together if possible and stand their ground, never go into in a freezer.
I’m not afraid at all. I’ve seen street violence and sudden attacks on people.
I hope to defend my life best as possible if confronted by criminals with gun. I will fight to survive. Never do what gunman wants.
I know too many others not carrying a gun. I should be worried about them? Eventually criminals with guns will get them?
Death can occur at any moments notice and being caught unaware happens. Criminals fire wildly and hit innocent people.
You could be ducking and get shot by a criminal. You over believe, you’ll be standing tall and firing back.
Again, if people feel threatened in society, carry a gun.
Some don’t feel such threats and they are concerned about personal security.
Why don’t you people so adamant about carrying a gun get a local TV info commercial show. Go on and on about statistics about crime decreasing to the TV audience, late night.
Never talk about those “trained” CC leaving a weapon out for kids to play with.
Never talk about CC with a gun can’t put a car seat in properly and they don’t wear seatbelts while driving.
People fail personal responsibility constantly and you don’t think it affects them if they have are carrying a gun.
Even if you have guns at home and criminal breaks in, there is a choice to make.
Two teenagers running from police in Los Angeles escaped from a car that crashed in a neighborhood and broke into a house.
Both had AK-47’s. Police showed up and instantly it was a hostage situation.
The home owner and his family woke up with criminals sitting on their couch. The guy had a gun, I don’t know it was but he didn’t go for it.
Incredibly he realized the criminal teenagers were getting sleepy and talked one into ending the drama, giving themselves up to police.
No shootout happened and police captured the criminals. Because he didn’t go to his gun first, he saved his family’s life.
There is a variety of circumstances someone has a gun, but its better not to engage them in a shootout.
That’s what businesses hope happens, they don’t employees shooting threatening criminals.
Corporate business doesn’t want that. Family business, armed workers maybe in there.
Growing up I worked for more family businesses more than in corporate business jobs. Nowhere I worked was ever robbed by criminals with guns.
I worked overnight right after high school in a 7-11 alone, midnight to 7 am and it was never robbed. Didn’t even have a security camera. That was 6 month job during the winter months mostly. The cold weather saved my life? That was in 84 or 85.
Nathan – I am simply acknowledging that I have not studied the issue. Actually, I lean toward ‘your side’ on this – the idea of lawful citizens baing armed just has to be a real bummer for the bad guys!
I lived in a neighborhood in PA where most of the families had guns. I think that served as a deterrent to break-ins.
Ben,
I’ll predict the Chamber will support a Casino.
Too much money could be spent and jobs created.
The social costs are high, but its a choice entering the Casino.
Casino’s can do a good job to limit spending by identified gamblers.
Casino with repeat customers get to know how some are spending money.
They investigate credit ratings of some repeat gamblers.
They can ask or demand some gamblers don’t return. Casino’s recognize faces with their security camera’s.
WSU students and faculty will vote for name change whenever its promoted to the University, someday. I have a date in mind but circumstances have to occur for that to happen.
It will take a full semester allowed discussion then vote on it.
Ben! I don’t think we are going to see real proposal models until after the election.
Ruffin, Canadian Investors for Century II and post Century II and even Bob Knight’s are just concepts and at most concept renderings if they have them.
If the Casino vote is approved, then the people who want to build one here must send proposals to the Kansas Lottery. They will most likely pick the proposal that offers the best reassurance in a financial stand point. One that has enough capital to weather the initial capital cost and not be like a Wild West World and fold within a couple of months. Regardless of location or rendering.
You know, people say that Wichita will not benefit all that much, because they will only get 1% of the gaming revenue. It’s more than that. Just think of how much the city will benefit from a 400+ room hotel in transient tax alone, not including that of sales tax to the retail, entertainment and food and beverage side.
That is why it’s more beneficial if the city has the casino and not the county or Sumner. And I think the Casino investors want to make it happen in that way. Dumping the Century II plans quails them fears a bit and may make it more attractive for those to vote “yes”, knowing that they will not lose Century II to a casino. How about you Ben? You feel it may swing you to the “yes” side?
Joe – dropping the C-II proposal helps but I am still looking at it. I’d like to know exactly what I am being asked to vote for. Uncertainty is the enemy of this whole thing.
A County site (neither Wichita nor Park City) could be the best. The reason? The second % would go to the county. They have already said they need to find $2 million per year to cover deficits at the Arena; that would effective transfer the County’s take to your WDDC area.
However, while my vote is still uncertain my prediction stands. For the reasons given before – very low turnout. 15% or so.
Ben,
The CCL people I know of are quite cautious, very safety minded, and are not irresponsible people. The license process tries to weed the others out.
No person with a gun, should be drinking… whether in a bar or anywhere else, but particularly carrying a gun in a bar. I’m in agreement with you there, and most bars are posted, so it’s a non-issue. Also Kansas law prohibits carrying in a nuisance business, or being under the influence of drugs, alchol, etc.
Yep, I understand… 2 guys tried to get some addresses of probation officers and were not given them. That night, the two went into a Northwest or North HS teachers home and shot him and his wife while they were sleeping.. they later said they just wanted to see what it was like to kill someone. The “criminals” were 17 yr olds from ‘good’ homes. The guns were stolen. This same guy was up for parole this year(in Kansas).
I’ve seen many cases in Sedg County where someone was killed and was committed using a knife. Hell, people strangle victims to death. Several recent cases of that. When I was in Canada, one of the most restrictive places for guns… and there is just as much violence or more there. Every morning I read in the paper or saw on the news how someone (or multiple someone’s) had been killed. Gangs would go in groups, rob someone, then beat them to death with baseball bats so there was no one who could identify them. So, do they outlaw baseball bats next ? People shouldn’t just be concerned about criminals with guns, nor take the approach “it will never happen to me”. That’s niave.
However, some times when the criminals are left to “wonder” who does and doesn’t have a gun, who might be able to shoot back, etc. if they try to rob some place, attack someone, etc… they change their mind about doing it in the first place. It does work as a deterrent.Yes. I have 2 dogs which will alert me, as well as an alarm, plus motion lights… so if the light is on I know someone or something is outside. And, I won’t answer any door after 9 p.m. for anyone. Taking precautions is not dumb. I’m not paranoid about it at all, but I have also seen a lot of what does and can happen.
The cases where there were robberies & a CCL shooting involved, the CCL person gave up tehir money and did not pull a gun on anyone… even though the robbers were pointing guns at everyone….. that is until the robber took actions which became life threatening, and the CCL person then took them out. Ironically, most of the cases I know of, the CCL person was Ex-Military. These weren’t in Kansas.
I have had police officers say.. they are glad that they (CCL holders) are out there, and hope if they get into a bad situation that one of them are around.
Those who come up with the ’scare’ scenarios of ’shoot outs’ in businesses, are a joke. It never has happened anywhere. The “it’s not needed arguments”, are usually uninformed, just don’t know, or niave about all the things that really do happen out there every single day. Just look at the data on Walmart parking lots, and all of the robberies, assaults, attempted kidnappings, and attempted / or completed rapes that have occurred… in broad daylight. Makes me pay more attention in a parking lots now.
david – all good points. Like I said; a lot to digest on this.
Joe – you present me with an interesting Catch-22. By your logic if I vote FOR the casino then I am voting WITH the Arena crowd and therefore I am voting FOR the arena crowd.
However, I am NOT for the arena crowd. So how can I vote for the casino without being FOR the arena crowd?
No Offense…
But am I the only one who finds it dreadfully painful to read anything Mrage has to say about Gun Control?
It is like a jumbling of thoughts all trying to come out at once with no apparent point.