Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
- Freebird1971 on Open thread 11/23
- BlueJay on Open thread 11/23
Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted July 14, 2007 at 1:00 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
- Permalink
- Comments RSS
- Both comments and trackbacks are closed
75 Comments
Hmmm, 70 degrees and air smells good this morning. Lets see what news the Wichita EAGLE brings us.
Uh here’s some BAD news … “Demolition starts next week in (white elephant) arena footprint.” I wonder how they will handle the hazardous residue and dust when knocking down those old buildings?
Perhaps someone will come to their senses yet and say “Look the emperor wears no clothes!” This ugly duckling downtown arena will be an albatross around the necks of Wichita and Sedgwick County taxpayers from now till eternity.
Ye gads … even after tearing down those buildings, the so-called white elephant arena footprint could be put to another use, a good use, such as a warehouse or an airline lost baggage storage building.
Anyway, I’ve got to go to breakfast.
Oh I take great pleasure in watching the naysayers shrill and cry. As it gets built right in front of your very eyes, it must make you so upset that you cannot sleep at night.
It’s like watching a spoiled brat finally get a much deserved whooping for the first time in their life. A deserved punishment for trying to have the world revolve around them. It doesn’t work that way. This is the real world and that is progress.
:)
Sleeping pills help!
So how many more Wranglers games will there be before they turn off the lights at L-D?
I regret to inform you, Joe Williams, that not everyone agrees with your advocacy of big-government entertainment.
Joe, have you gotten a job with Sedgwick County yet? I’d be surprised if your brown-nosing of Dave Unruh and the other commissioners doesn’t pay off soon for you.
anon – a question. Does this kind of smug arrogance from the arena/casino crowd make you more or less likely to “Vote Yea!Yea!” August 7?
My prediction, already posted elsewhere, is that this will be one of the causes of the defeat of the casino vote. A sort of ‘guilt by association’ since so many of the arena boosters are also the only visible casino boosters.
To me, Ben, it doesn’t make much difference, but I can certainly understand how many people might be more likely to vote “no” for the reason you allude to.
Personally, I shall be voting “no” on August 7. While I feel that people have an absolute right to gamble as they please, these reasons, at least for me, outweigh this right:
1. Casinos should not be owned by the State.2. Gambling should not be taxed by the State. (More money in government’s hands is not a good thing, to me.) Further, the high rate of taxation means gamblers get a bad deal, just like they do in the lottery, which pays out about half of its intake in the form of prizes. Illegal numbers rackets, I have read, return 85% in prizes.3. The law should allow as many casinos as people want located where people want, not the count and locationg that the State dictates.4. The law should not expand the government of the State of Kansas, which is what is happening what with the new gaming commissioner, board, etc.5. As long as we have a State that feels it has to fix all the problems that gambling causes, we must realize that gambling is not a net plus for the state, even if that was a valid goal.
Ben, did you do the arithmetic about the casino studies, where while acknowledging high social costs, use the fact that they pay employee salaries and buy goods and services that offset these costs?
anon – Ilooked at those numbers. My tentative conclusion was that a local casino, IF LOCATED CORRECTLY, would be a net plus for south-central Kansas. One factor that O considered that is usually ignored by the anti-casino campaign of Kahrs et.al. is the fact that the local gamblers are already gambling.
In other words: they correctly note that most casino customers will come from within a 50 or 100 mile radius. Thus they do their ‘no net benefit zero sum’ conclusion. My different take on that is that these people currently take their dollars to Oklahoma, Topeka, or KC. So, a ‘local’ or ‘regional’ casino would at least keep the dollars in the area.
However, all that said, I still do not favor a DOWNTOWN location. For reasons I have expanded upon before I favor a ‘highway’ location. Since my goal is to attract travelers I would want it visible and ona major artery; particularly for interstate drivers. I do NOT see people flying to Wichita to gamble but I might see them driving in – perhaps from Hutch, Salina, El Dorado, etc.
So, I would want a site close enough to Wichita for easy employment commutes for workers but more access for travellers. That is why sites such as Mulvane, Park City, or along the Canal Route in Wichita make sense to me.
El Dorado just west of the Turnpike at 254 could have been an interesting possibility but Butlar County is not in the mix.
Ruffin’s Delano idea is intriguing to me. I will have to ponder that. Delano had traditional been the ‘wild side’ of Wichita; that makes an interesting historical tie.
One big problem I have with the vote as set is that we really have no idea where the “powers that be” might choose to site one in Sedgwick County. That is another of the reasons I have delineated for my prediction. Many people who would favor having one in the region oppose one downtown. This week’s Wichita Business Journal had a poll “If approved – where?” 33% Coliseum, 13% elsewhere Park City, 12% Sumner for a total 58% outside Wichita. 19% West Bank, 12% elsewhere downtown, 9% C-II for a total 40% downtown. (Not 100% due to rounding) Last week they had a poll showing a majority opposed to the Casino overall.
What I think will happen is that voters will realize that there is one and ONLY ONE way to vote for a casino in the area but NOT downtown. That is to vote NO to the casino question. That would allow it in Sumner ounty.
The state law provides for revenue sharing between Sumner and Sedgwick counties if a casino is built in Sumner. A Turnpike location between Wichita and Oklahome might have the best “net” to capture people who want to gamble and are heading south to do so.
It’s only arrogance Ben if you disagree with it. I believe that JWink has been overwhelming arrogant about stopping the downtown arena after the majority of voters voted it in.
I will admit that my remark is a personal remark directed towards the arrogance of JWink. Fight fire with fire kind of think.
During the whole bypass the majority vote debockle spearheaded by far-right wing Republicans, which JWink is one, constantly spewed lies and misconstrued facts and you know it. Me and you had reasonable debates about this. But the JWinks did not.
His remarks and lies and the his constant downgrading remarks on Wichita I find totally arrogant. So yes! I do find it nice that the progress on the downtown arena is happening and the naysayers, who cannot accept the fact it’s a done deal. JWink still is hoping for the plan to get wiped out. $200 million dollars down the tubes.
We could spend $178 million building a new arena in downtown Wichita or we can spend $250 million on renovating the Kansas Coliseum. Your choice! You choose the more expensive option.
SPEAKING OF LIES!
“We could spend $178 million building a new arena in downtown Wichita or we can spend $250 million on renovating the Kansas Coliseum.”
LIE! Renovation cost less than $100 million. While it is true that you can inflate it with accounting games the cost is still less.
8 Wonders of Kansas Web Site:
http://www.8wonders.org/
THANKS TONY!
I am planning several ‘mini-vacations’ through the rest of the summer – on a budget. These will be useful. AND – my dollars will be spent in KANSAS!
Joe…
I dont know why you cant see the “big picture” here…
If the county is allowed to continue building this white elephant, it will cost millions more than what it should of.
Than the next project will come along, they county will do it again, and again and again and again… Wasting millions of our tax dollars. (casino is the next thing on deck…)
I agree we need a downtown arena… I agree we need an enlarged convention center… I dont necessarily agree we need a downtown casino… I could be persuaded to change my mind on that one…
The problem is the right hand (city) and the left hand (county) aren’t talking to each other and doing what is best for this city. They have their independent goals in mind which dont mesh with each other.
-The arena is too expensive… John Q Taxpayer shouldn’t be paying for 11,000 sq ft of private VIP restaurant & gathering space, VIP sky boxes and paying to furnish it all with plasma Tv, leather couches and nice carpet.-The arena is an arena, it needs to be a convention center first, arena second. There isn’t enough “arena only” business to put the arena into the black.-The arena/convention center needs to be designed in such a way to be connected to a hotel for a larger overall facility. Something similar to Crown Center in KC.-The building needs to allow for 100 thousand sq ft of convention floor.-The entire area’s infrastructure needs to be built in such a way to compliment all of the attractions downtown… Pedestrian walk ways, free of cars between WaterWalk, CII, Hyatt, Arena, Casino, Old Town, & Delano…-There needs to be parking garages dispersed through out downtown along these walkways to accommodate park and walk between all attractions.-IF there is a casino, it needs to compliment the rest of downtown, not hinder its growth. i.e. it should be placed in an area that would make it centric with the other downtown facilities, i.e. CII, Arena, Hotels, etc… I like the Delano plan but i also like a “urban casino” located at Broadway and Douglass (one that was thrown around as an idea, but never put into a plan).
The problem with this city/county is that no one can see farther than the tip of their nose and what ever special project they represent…
Oh and a note on a casino… I would be more in favor of a Casino if there were NO SLOT MACHINES… Table games only…
Ben! How do you know it was going to be under $100 million?
You often tout how core cost went up 70% from the original proposal on the downtown area. I can guarantee you that the Britt Brown area would have received the same fate.
You also have to factor in the closing of the Britt Brown arena for two years for those renovations.
But that argument is over. The downtown arena won again and again.
Technically Joe…
The downtown arena lost a few times BEFORE it won… Where were you the first 3 times they tried to put it up for a vote???
I argued down the Vote Yea group at the chamber Expoventure and proved how their numbers didn’t add up… The Vote Yea campaign was just well financed and well polished lies… Similar to the Bush campaign…
Joe! I am using figures provided by the “Vote Yea!” campaign. If they are lies they are not MY lies.
But you are right – the arena won a narrow vote after having lost over 2-to-1 and the County refuses to take another look at it. And yes, it WILL be built even though a majority are now opposed.
I hope that YOU can make YOUR arena work. County told me it would need about $2 million/year to cover deficits; that is why they represented to me that they would have a reserve. Since that reserve is being spent on cost over-runs I hope that you can either (a) NOT run deficits or (b) come up with a way to finance them. When you come back to the taxpayers for that I will assure you there will be trouble.
I have proposed ways to cover the deficits but they have been rejected by the arena crowd who will expect ME to pay them.
Joe! I wish you luck with your Arena. But, when it runs into financial trouble AS THE COUNTY HAS ALREADY PROJECTED don’t come to me to bail it out.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070714/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq
BAGHDAD – Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki said Saturday that the Iraqi army and police are capable of keeping security in the country when American troops leave “any time they want,” though he acknowledged the forces need further weapons and trainin
The embattled prime minister sought to show confidence at a time when congressional pressure is growing for a withdrawal and the Bush administration reported little progress had been made on the most vital of a series of political benchmarks it wants al-Maliki to carry out.
Al-Maliki said difficulty in enacting the measures was “natural” given Iraq’s turmoil.
But one of his top aides, Hassan al-Suneid, rankled at the assessment, saying the U.S. was treating Iraq like “an experiment in an American laboratory.” He sharply criticised the U.S. military, saying it was committing human rights violations, embarassing the Iraqi government with its tactics and cooperating with “gangs of killers” in its campaign against al-Qaida in Iraq.
Al-Suneid’s comments were a rare show of frustration toward the Americans from within al-Maliki’s inner circle as the prime minister struggles to overcome deep divisions between Shiite, Sunni and Kurdish members of his coalition and enact the American-drawn list of benchmarks.
wrong thread leave…
Joe! Great arguement! “We screwed up the Arena budget; how do you know we wouldn’t screw up the remodel even worse!”
MASTERFUL SPIN!
I wasn’t of voting age.
Different time, different era. Generation X (my generation) came into voting power after the decade gap between the downtown arena option the city pushed back in the early 90’s. That was the city, this current one is the county. With population growth and the population difference between the city and county. you are talking about taking in an additional 100,000+ voters in the decision.
Not including that the city arena vote back in 93 was during a city election date, meaning the turnout was extremely low. The downtown arena was on a Presidential General Election vote, which had one of the highest turnouts in Sedgwick County History.
That is why the re-vote arena group tried desperately to have the county put it on the city primary election ballot, for which only 24,730 people came out to vote, compared to 171,130. Talk about circumventing the will of the voters. But that is how the re-vote arena group is.
I’ll will give you that the city one lost back 15 years ago, but that doesn’t mean we should never have a downtown arena vote ever again.
Many things happened after that vote. 1996 is when the County was getting floods of ADA lawsuits and so on.
As a member of Generation X, we are the future and we want a downtown arena, you guys will be geriatric and probably living in Florida or Arizona and never giving a second thought to Wichita. That is why it won this time around, it was the youth vote that carried it over. Go and talk to any young person who voted in 2004, and they would pretty much all say they voted “yea”
After 10 years from now, you guys want to put an issue on the ballot to demolish the Downtown Arena, go ahead. I see nothing wrong with you trying.
Tony – how old are you?
And Joe! I don’t foresee anyone putting a demolition proposal on the ballot in ten years. Once the thing is built we taxpayers will have to deal with it.
Hey Joe…
Why dont you shut up… Your giving our generation a bad name…
Hey Ben… I am 25… I’ve lived in this city for 20 years and have 3 kids… Joe? How bout u? What do you have invested in this city besides your parents inheritance?
You sound like a spoiled child whose parents pay for everything…
Oh “I’ll will give you that the city one lost back 15 years ago,” What about the TWO separate campaigns that were started a one and three years before the “Vote Yea” campaign??? Oh, yea, both were scrapped due to lack of support???
Joe… Please stop trying to represent Generation X… You dont… I support a downtown arena… Just not this one… So, please SHUT UP and stop trying to represent me!
It’s really sad. For $200+ million you could have had a really nice, economy-expanding bio/nano/composite/IT research and education center. Employing thousands of young Wichitans in high-paying jobs for your children and grandchildren. for decades. But you let the concrete pouring decisionmakers sell you a mass-entertainment center that will be an economic drain on Wichita for decades. Let’s all sing the Dragnet tune, shall we, Dumb, dah dumb, dumb.
…DUUMMBB
MPS – it is called “bread and circuses”.
AAAHHHHHHH Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha…..
So true MPS!
Oh but MPS… The county is already building that sheet metal school at Jabara to replace the existing school at VoTech…
Where oh where did Joeie go…
MPS – think about the economic impact of composites – applications not only to aircraft but to other transportation – buses, train, cars. Consider the implications of materials with the strength at half the weight.
We have the foundation but it is slipping away. Unfortunately our best machinists and other such workers are those Joe! denigrates “guys will be geriatric and probably living in Florida or Arizona and never giving a second thought to Wichita.”
And, in a way Joe! is correct. Boeing’s headquarters is in Chicago. They are doing their most important work elsewhere. The brain drain continues as those people who are SERIOUS about REAL economic advancement go elsewhere.
As Joe! points out; that is PRECISELY what the arena crowd wants. He called on people who oppose the arena to boycott my Wichita-based small business since we are required to collect the arena tax. He said anyone opposed to the arena should boycott ALL Sedgwick County businesses.
Tony – I remember attending the Board meeting when they eviscerated Vo-Tech. I saw a great deal of raw courage displayed by students in the programs there when they addressed the Board trying to save their school.
These are young people who are not well-connected; they also are NOT accustomed to public speaking. It took a lot of courage for them to stand up front and speak. They were not eloquent; their grammer might not always have been the best. BUT – these were young people with guts.
They spoke from the heart – about their dreams of bettering themselves. Unfortunately, we would rather spend money on glitz rather than on education and training for these young people.
I commented at that meeting that in many ways I was not effected by what was going on. I am a professional; such blue-collar training does not directly impact me. BUT – as a citizen of the community I absolutely favor investing my tax dollars in these young peoples’ vocational training. THEY ARE MORE IMPORTANT TO WICHITA’S FUTURE THAN A BASKETBALL GAME!
But, as Tony and MPS both note – we don’t care about them.
Oh I just love. Please go on and keep hating me! LOL
You guys are pathetic.
The only thing you come back with is “Shut up!”
Lots of laugh. Something that wouldn’t be said in my face, that’s for sure.
No Ben! I didn’t suggest people to boycott. There was people who wanted like you who wanted to not put a single penny into the arena. I said you can do that if you shop in another county.
It was people like you who wanted to find a way to not pay into the arena and mean, yourself was wanting to boycott local businesses.
I made a point that I always buy everything in Sedgwick County, because I wanted to make sure I was putting my pennies into the arena.
Good Luck Tony the Hater.
Joe! Where did I say “Shut up”? And I will happily tell you to your face – any time any place.
I run a business in Wichita – I have no choice but to collect the tax. You know that.
And Joe! – to quote YOU: “Go Phuck Yourself”
Those are YOUR words Joe!
Good luck Ben!
Actually Ben, I told Joe to shut up and stop trying to represent our generation… Joe, i would love to meet you face to face to debate the facts. My week is open, what about you?
You are the one insisting that we trust our government… I refuse to trust our government to do what is right… They have shown time and time again that they can not be trusted…
You want to blindly trust them, go ahead, use your money… My money is better spent on my family, not an overpriced arena.
Joe the name-caller! I notice you were unable to respond to any points made. All you could do was resort to calling people haters.
By the way – you said before that you do not condone Chandler opposing the casino. Are you telling HIM to shut up? Calling HIM a hater?
Good luck at what Joe? When do you want to meet so I can tell you to your face to “Phuck Yourself”?
I’ll be at C-II tonight; come on over.
Well Tony. As you are maybe too late into the debate. But as this Community Thread, I referenced one of the biggest reasons why the downtown arena is the best option, because for one, the alternative (without a public vote/approval) would have cost us, the taxpayers, more money.
There was no status quo with this vote. It was business leaders, the City of Wichita and Visioneering members who stepped up just in time for us as citizens to allow a different option that would be more beneficial to our community than to let the county go forward with their plans to renovate the Britt Brown Arena.
Hey Joe…
I’ll be downtown all day Monday… Want to meet for lunch? I’ll be glad to debate you face to face…
“because for one, the alternative (without a public vote/approval) would have cost us, the taxpayers, more money.”
And that Joe!, was the big lie of “Vote Yea!”
Ben! I made my points and made my facts.
Was it Ben? What makes it lie?
Point by point!
Joe…
Listen to me… I’m not against a downtown arena… I’m against the current plan…
I want a new downtown entertainment complex… Something that is a convention center, Arena, Hotel and shopping complex… Something similar to Crown Center in KC…
My problem is with the piss poor job being done by the County…
No Joe!; you made UP your “facts”. Like “$250 million on renovating the Kansas Coliseum.”
I had my CPA run the numbers from the “Vote Yea!” campaign and she told me the claims were bogus.
It is the same as the “nay” campaign telling people the downtown arena will be a white elephant, that nobody will go there, that it would devastate our economy?
Speaking of government funded entertainment facilities. Century II? Oh I guess it’s a white elephant.
Point by point – has already been done Joe! Renovations would have been 1/3 to 1/2 as costly as what we are doing now.
C-II runs about break-even. The County projects 2 million/year deficit on the Arena.
Yea, CII replaced the old Forum theater that was used, alot… There was a huge demand for CII.
There was 1 event being held that the Coliseum in the past 2 months that could also be held at the Arena… How is 1 event in 2 months going to make enough money to pay for the millions required to upkeep it?
well, adios people. Off to dinner and theater. Will be dropping off dollars in local businesses – and at C-II.
Bogus on what point?
What was the “yea” campaign lieing about? The only point that the “yea” campaign said, was that if the arena doesn’t get voted in, the county would move forward with bonds to fund the renovations of the Britt Brown Arena, paid back by the property tax of people in the county. That wasn’t a lie. That was what exactly would happen.
Can you please give me the name and number of your CPA? I would like to call that person up personally and ask him/her what was bogus about the “yea” campaign.
Tony! Correction. All events held at the Britt Brown arena will be held at the downtown arena. The downtown arena is the replacement for the Britt Brown arena.
Joe,
Yes, that was what the yea campaign said… They also said the arena total would be $184 Million for the new arena which included parking and the renovations to the pavilions.
Now with the new budget, renovations to the pavilions have been scaled back, parking has been eliminated and the overall cost of the arena has gone up 70%.
The point in all of this is, we voted for a $184 million package that included parking and arena. Not a $201 Million dollar package that includes only an arena with no parking.
This is called bait and switch.
Why cant you understand that most people are against the arena, we are just against the current plans and way the county is going about it? People say that we had our chance to give our opinions, and I did, over and over again… I heard people at the open meetings over and over again, express their concerns, and they and I were all told to “trust us” we will do whats right…
I do not trust the County… I should NOT be paying for 11,000 sq ft of private VIP space… I should not be paying for VIP parking… I should NOT be paying for Plasma Tvs and furnishings for the VIP areas…
I have put forth many plans that would be better for this city than the current plan but you choose to ignore it and say live with what we have… No, i refuse to live with what we have when there is still a chance to fix it and make it better…
Joe…
Wrong…
The new arena will not play host to any “Dirt” shows. Also, i doubt they will host any Gun shows because of the laws being inside the city of Wichita…
Oh…
And let me point out… That the KC has 3 events booked for the next 2 months. 1 large concert which would go to the new arena, 1 small Mexican concert which could go to the new arena and the Wichita Wild Football team that WONT go to the new arena… So, 2 events in 2 months… Do you think each of those events will bring in enough money to pay for the upkeep of the facility???
Dont think so…
KC upcoming events page: http://www.kansascoliseum.com/events.php
The 184.5 million dollars was the expected and projected tax revenue that would be collected under the arena sales tax for 30 months. After the half way point, they had to re-evaluate the tax revenue with a Citizens Tax Oversight Committee. As each passing month, they were collecting beyond their original projections.
Since every dollar collected under the arena tax, must be spent towards it, then they must apply the over amount and spend it on the project.
The downtown arena itself is still under that original $185.4 million dollars, and thats complete and total.
No they have no eliminated the parking. Why do you think they are spending money on a parking study.
Yes! There was some budget line items shifts. But that is always expected. They made a good faith best estimate proposal to the public. They did not bait and switch. They made a reasonable effort.
And I stress again! You did not vote specifically on how much to spend on each line item in the arena budget. The vote was if you wanted to raise a temporary 1% sales tax to be collected in a duration of 30 months to raise a minimum of $184.5 million dollars on a downtown arena.
And yes! They should have been more forthcoming and planning should have been much more detailed before the arena vote, such as site location, design and etc. But they only had a few months to work it out and much of it was on faith. Because the county approved the Kansas Coliseum renovations in the summer of 04. The business leaders, visioneering leaders, and city leaders thought of an alternative plan and said let the voters decide in a Presidential Election year with access to the greatest turnout possible.
The vast majority of people who voted no, didn’t vote on the specifics of what the downtown arena was going to be, but rather they didn’t want to pay an extra penny of sales tax. And that is what the vote was all about.
Ben says because the downtown arena is going to run a deficit, what he doesn’t tell you is that the Kansas Coliseum runs a deficit and it will run at the same rate as the downtown arena.
The Britt Brown Arena, originally designed as an agriculture venue had a good 30 year run. The new downtown arena will last us probably for 50 years into the future. It’s a decent investment and it has already spurred all kind of downtown development that has been half empty and in desperate need of updating.
Wichita Wild? Arena football? Just like the Stealth, Bombers, Aviators and etc?
If the league doesn’t fold like the other ones, Wichita Wild won’t be playing any where.
For one thing! The Kansas Coliseum is ran by the County. You don’t trust government right? Do you think they do a piss poor job of running venues, bringing attractions and etc? Well! The downtown arena will be different. The county will not run the downtown arena, they are contracting with an arena management company that has had great success.
A global company that runs many venues all around the world, including high profile large arenas and stadiums. Solider Field in Chicago is just one of their managed venues.
Let me give you a taste:
1st Mariner Arena (Baltimore, MD)American Bank Center Arena (Corpus Christi, TX)AT&T Center (San Antonio, TX)Atlantic City Boardwalk Hall (Atlantic City, NJ)Bank Atlantic Center (Sunrise, FL)Bank of Kentucky Center (Highland Heights, KY)Baton Rouge River Center Arena (Baton Rouge, LA)Big Sandy Superstore Arena (Huntington, WV)BlueCross Arena (Rochester, NY)Cabarrus Arena and Events Center (Concord, NC)Canton Memorial Civic Center (Canton, OH)CenturyTel Center Arena (Bossier City, LA)Coliseo De Puerto Rico (Hato Rey, PR)Colorado State Fair (Pueblo, CO)DCU Center Arena (Worcester, MA)DeVos Field House at Hope College (Holland, MI)Diddle Arena (Bowling Green, KY)Dunkin’ Donuts Center (Providence, RI)Eastern Kentucky Expo Center (Pikeville, KY)Five Flags Center Arena (Dubuque, IA)Florence Civic Center (Florence, SC)Ford Arena (Beaumont, TX)Ford Center (Oklahoma City, OK)George M. Sullivan Sports Arena (Anchorage, AK)Hampton University Convocation Center (Hampton, VA)Hershey Centre (Mississauga, ON)Hilton Coliseum (Ames, IA)Idaho Center Arena (Nampa, ID)Jacksonville Veterans Memorial Arena (Jacksonville, FL)John A.Carlson Center (Fairbanks, AK)John Paul Jones Arena (Charlottesville, VA)Kingston Arena (New Ontario, ON)Koenig-Pilsener Arena (Oberhausen, DEU)Landon Arena (Topeka, KS)Laredo Entertainment Center (Laredo, TX)Long Beach Arena (Long Beach, CA)Manchester Evening News Arena (Manchester, UK)Mellon Arena (Pittsburgh, PA)Metroradio Arena (Newcastle upon Tyne, UK)Mid America Arena (Council Bluffs, IA)Mobile Civic Center (Mobile, AL)Montana Expo Park (Great Falls, MT)Nassau Veterans Memorial Coliseum (Uniondale, NY)Nationwide Arena (Columbus, OH)New Orleans Arena (New Orleans, LA)North Charleston Coliseum (North Charleston, SC)NOVA Southeastern University Arena (Fort Lauderdale, FL)Odyssey Arena (Belfast, NIR)Oracle Arena (Oakland, CA)Oslo Spektrum (Oslo, NOR)Paul E. Tsongas Arena (Lowell, MA)Pensacola Civic Center (Pensacola, FL)Peoria Civic Center (Peoria, IL)Pershing Auditorium (Lincoln, NE)Petersen Events Center (Pittsburgh, PA)Rabobank Arena (Bakersfield, CA)Reliant Arena (Houston, TX)Richmond Coliseum (Richmond, VA)Roberts Stadium (Evansville, IN)Save Mart Center (Fresno, CA)Selland Arena (Fresno, CA)Silver Spurs Arena (Kissimmee, FL)Sioux Falls Arena (Sioux Falls, SD)Sovereign Center (Reading, PA)The Arena at Gwinnett Center (Duluth, GA)The Arena at the Dow Event Center (Saginaw, MI)The BOK Center (Tulsa, OK)The Forum (Inglewood, CA)The Palladium (Dubai, UAE)Times Union Center (Albany, NY)Van Andel Arena (Grand Rapids, MI)Verizon Wireless Arena (Manchester, NH)Wachovia Arena at Casey Plaza (Wilkes Barre, PA)Wolstein Center (Cleveland, OH)
Hey Joe,
Why not take the extra money and make it bigger? Why not take the extra and utilize it for a parking structure? Why not use the extra to make annex buildings utilized for conventions? Why not take the extra and put it into a trust to pay for the deficits that will be run every month???
Oh, and yes, we did vote for the $185 million because that’s what the county asked us to do… They asked us to vote for a sales tax for 185 million or bond less than 100 million for renovation of the KC…
As for the KC… Yes, it runs a deficit every year, and its getting worse… But remember, we still have to operate the KC pavilions, not bit brown arena, but still the pavilions, the land and everything else out there. So, what will be saved by mothballing Bit Brown? maybe 50%???
You say the new arena will last 50 years? maybe physically, but not functionally… The ONLY way the facility can last us 50 years functionally is by building it in a way in which it can be enlarged easily… 15k seats is not enough… I believe that fact has been hammered out here over and over and been agreed upon…
What is your response to us as John Q Tax payer paying for the Vip amenities??? What do you say about the fact the facility will be built already obsolete??? What exactally do you think will happen? Who will pay at the new arena? 1 or 2 events every month? its not worth building it!
You can’t compare events booked at the KC to what potentially will be brought into the new arena.The new arena will attract at least one other prime sport tenant to go along with Thunder hockey. The sports team will of course lose money and most likely eventually fold, but it will be a good 25-40 dates a year in the building and a paying customer.There are a number of traveling shows (concerts, etc.) that won’t even consider the KC because it sits below 10,000.Give the arena a chance.
So you have some government employees, who don’t have much experience, if any running a venue like the Kansas Coliseum, compared to a global management company that does.
This company will bring more events than the county can ever do.
County people probably just sit there by the phone waiting for somebody to call.
SMG will go and find them and bring them here.
Joe… Let me put this into prospective…
3 events at the KC in 2 months…
There are 12 events scheduled at CII in the next 4 weeks.
You say build it and they will come… Why? Would you build your tower without a restaurant contracted to open in it?
Look! This is what is going to happen. It’s going to be more successful than the average outcry remarks from the naysayers and it most likely be less successful than the most optimistic. That is what happens most of the time.
The one thing is remember that it isn’t going to be a burden to our community. There are projects that will cost much more than the arena, that are coming into our community, such as the $500 million dollar NW Bypass, the $100 million dollar Kellogg/235 interchange, $60 million to redo 47th/135 interchange.
And people like Ben who are content to give up $300+ million dollars in private investment into our and give it to Wellington.
…DUUMMBB
Is the County supposed to create nano tech training without industry participating? The sheet metal school could train workers that will leave the state.
I had to read some websites, the goals of nano tech, materials and engineering new processes into manufacturing.
That’s schools and training. They hope the technology is used locally somehow.
We need recreation after classes and work! We need places to see events.
Creating the arena doesn’t mean we’ll never support more engineering training in the future.
Industry has to desire it first. Then get government and colleges involved.
Because the arena isn’t a Convention Center..c’mon!
The vote was for an arena! It was replacing an arena!
“Dirt” shows won’t happen downtown but they should still occur in this community. The Coliseum as a “dirt” arena is needed.
(Until Wink builds something, don’t count on his arena post WWW closing.)
We have an established and loved Century II as our Convention Center.
Don’t want the Casino, vote NO and be fine with it.
But if you people want the City and County to do things in the future, training schools or a new convention center, this is their chance for new economics to enter this area.
If you want improvements and somehow hope to guide the County and City efforts in the future, you have to vote Yes for the Casino.
What’s the point of denying the Casino, the other programs desired aren’t happening anytime soon, because the County and City won’t have the capital without raising taxes.
Two or three years before gambling problems happen, $300 Million could be spent in this community.
The state shouldn’t own a casino. Screw that thought.
Elected legislators made it happen. We get to vote to spend $300 Million in this County or not. I welcome it.
Politics spending the gambling money is not my fight.
If you care about students and their job skill training in future years, give the County and City an economic push by voting yea, yea!
Because Tony! The Peerless Tower isn’t a profit venue. It’s a monument to our community. It is different than the Space Needle, Stratosphere Tower and other tourist towers. It is more like the Washington Monument, the Statue of Liberty or the Gateway Arch.
If restaurants want to build around it, I see no problem with that. I encourage any and all development around it.
It’s to commemorate the innovators and entrepreneurs of our City and to inspire people of our community to take the heart of Wichita’s soul and propel it forward.
Ok Joe… I’ll bite… How do you expect to pay for the day to day expenses of your Tower???
Do you expect the tax payers to pay for it or do you expect to have enough visitors to pay for it (like the Statue of Liberty or St. Louis Arch do)???
“The Peerless Tower isn’t a profit venue. It’s a monument to our community.
It’s to commemorate the innovators and entrepreneurs of our City and to inspire people of our community to take the heart of Wichita’s soul and propel it forward. ”
Wouldn’t it be cheaper to give everyone a plaque?
LMAO Ken…
Id much rather have $100 bill.
Better yet — instead of a tower, how about a scholarship or grant program to provide start up money to encourage innovators and entrepenuers?
A tower will inspire people to ahhh take pictures of the tower?
No I don’t. It will not incur that much operation cost because it will not have any paid employees.
On the pavilion level will be the Wichita Area Visitors Information Center (which used to be at the Boathouse) and that will be staffed by volunteers managed by the Greater Wichita Convention and Visitors Bureau. There will be an admittance fee to go to the observation deck, just like the Gateway Arch and others, but the charge $10+ to go up to the top to those monuments. We only expect to charge $2 for adults and $1 for children and seniors.
The Peerless Tower will not be very large mind you. 500ft tall and the observation deck will only have a circumference of around 30 feet.
Our capital campaign will include issuing lifetime memberships to the tower that will give you unlimited access to the observation deck for a reasonable membership fee.
The day to day operation cost of the tower can be covered by the admittance fees paid in by visitors.
i have no problem with private enterprise spending money to do what ever they want… But when it comes to the government, their decisions should make financial since… The arena does NOT make financial since.
Joe,
Whats your estimated construction cost???
Oh and Joe…
The Peerless site is down… ;-(
I just took it down about 5 minutes ago.
I’m in the process of re-designing as we speak. I’ll be working on it all evening.
That is why I’m on the ‘puter, and of course checking this blog to see the new postings.
;)
Well, im heading downtown for the car show with the kids… I still think the arena as planed is wrong. It needs to be larger and less extravent for Vips…
I’m still working on the construction cost details. With construction material cost rapidly increasing, it’s becoming an issue with what materials to use.
Slip form concrete was the first option, but concrete is becoming more costly than steel. Then for steel construction, you have to make a determination if you want to bolt the steel frame together or weld it. Bolting it is cheaper, but can cause serious cost overruns if it’s not done properly the 1st time and it needs to be re-worked (which seems to happen quite a bit with bolted frame projects.) Welding the frames can double the labor cost.
Then the site location will also be a factor. This structure will have to standing on bedrock, which isn’t such a bad thing as you can hit bedrock 40′ deep in some areas close to the river. But the shallower it takes to hit bed rock the cheaper the construction cost. But all in all, we are probably looking around the $18 million range, hopefully cheaper and that is our goal. $20 million is about what it would cost to build the Washington Monument in todays dollars.
We are still working out the details. This has been in the works for two years now.
Lets see now:
Vote Yea! represented that they provided parking and infrastructure in their 184.5 million budget. They also represented a 23,611,000 reserve for losses. That reserve, figuring at a conservative 6% discount rate, would provide about $2 million per year to cover operatin losses. County stated clearly that they expect such losses.
The total of these ‘ancillary’ itmes totaled, as I reall, about $52 million. Vote Yea! represented to the voters that these were all accounted for. Now we find that those representations were false. The total for all of these totals less than $15 million due to the cost overruns – 75% for construction. There is a term for that: “BAIT AND SWITCH”
Now the “Vote Yea!” crowd are trying to claim that there won’t be operating deficits; even though the county clearly states that there will be. And, they are seeking to covertly increase the budget further by shifting costs for parking and infrastructure to City taxpayers.
I have posted a table thoroughly delineating these figures along with the source documents I used. I do not get lies from some ‘anti-arena crowd’; I get them ALL from Sedgwick County. So, if the Arena people claim they are false they are calling themselves liars.
Joe! – Tony – can the Tower offset operating expenses by leasing cell/microwave space? Joe – I don’t think doing a 990T tax return would be much problem; especially if any ‘unrelated profits’ are plowed into operations.
“And people like Ben who are content to give up $300+ million dollars in private investment into our and give it to Wellington.”
Joe! – I’m still undecided. I have posted a PREDICTION that it will fail. If I can be convinced that a casino will be done RIGHT I will vote Yea!Yea!