A coalition of evangelical Protestant and Roman Catholic groups turned on Focus on the Family founder James Dobson and other national pro-life leaders related to the recent U.S. Supreme Court ruling upholding the ban on partial-birth abortions, the Washington Post reported. The coalition blasted pro-life leaders in full-page newspaper ads last month because the leaders had cheered the court ruling as a major pro-life victory. The coalition argued that the ruling was “more wicked than Roe” because it affirms the legality of late-term abortion “as long as you follow its guidelines.” The coalition contends that pro-life leaders, in an effort to boost fundraising, have “misled the Body of Christ about the ban, and now about the ruling itself.” A Focus on the Family official responded that the ruling was about incremental change and that most pro-lifers “are sophisticated enough to know we’re not going to win a total victory all at once.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- HLP on Open thread 11/23
- Regular on Open thread 11/23
- outlander on Open thread 11/23
- outlander on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
- CapnAmerica on Open thread 11/23
198 Comments
The pro life movement will hopefully go away. Surely they see they are defeated and they have won about all the concessions on this issue they are going to win. Abortion is a fundamental right between a woman and her doctor and it is simply nobody else’s damn business. Politically the pro life people made a bad mistake when they decided to stick their noses in the Terri Shavio case. America saw them for what they are- neo facist that only desire to control the lives of others. And America is rejecting them.
Yes, stopping the practice of stabbing a baby in the head with a knife when he or she is one inch from daylight, and sucking it’s brains out is a bad thing.
It’s a sad day for baby killers, though they still have 1,000 other forms of abortion to look forward to, including decapitation within the womb. Ah, an amazing sight to see.
Gee, Dobson, dosen’t it feel weird to be critized by the anti-abortion people. Maybe you didn’t realize that you were cheering for a US supreme court case that APPROVED of abortions. Now the ‘far right-hand threaded’ wingnuts are after you. Run, Jimmie, run.
I think good theory would be all pro-choicers actually go and participate in the procedure itself.
Get in there and palpate the baby to make sure it is alive and kicking, check its heartbeat and then help the baby out by maneuvering it around where only its head remains inside the birth canal.
All the while hearing muffled screams through the use of amplified sound and stereo ear phones.
Then they should watch as the “Doctor” executes the baby in true Mengele style ending its life.
Afterwards the body is disposed of like guts on a slaughter house rendering floor.
That should wake a few of them up.
Republican, you mean the pro-abortion people should actually get all the facts and experience what they support before they form an opinion on this issue?
That’s a stretch.
That would be like getting the anti-gunners to the target range to shoot off 100 rounds before deciding that guns should be banned.
How about if they could feel what the baby feels? How about if they could feel what the mother feels? After carrying around a little life for 7,8,9 months, then feeling that life executed in the final inches of birth.
You “pro-lifers” are so hypocritical. You can’t wait until you drop cluster bombs on kids, even make those cluster-bombs look like toys to get the kids to pick-up the unexploded ones, killing the kids, of course.
You make me sick, you sicko two-faced bastards.
You shipped over 4 million cluster bombs to your sicko Jew-buddies to drop while leaving Lebanon, to be sure to kill as many kids as possible.
May you all rot in Hell.
If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one.
I personally don’t think most cosmetic surgery is needed either, but I’m not going to lead a crusade to ban it.
“Abortion is a fundamental right between a woman and her doctor…”
Making it right in your own mind doesn’t make it right.
Perhaps all pro-war people should be shot in the face with an RPG before deciding to get us involved in places like Iraq.
Just to know what it feels like, you know.
I don’t support the war Tom, but the troops there made the CHOICE to join the military. The babies did NOT make the CHOICE to have their brains sucked out.
“Time MagazineFriday, Feb. 02, 2007The ‘Toys’ That Kill in LebanonBy Nicholas Blanford/Marakeh, Lebanon
To 17-year-old Rasha Zayoun, the small metal canister with a ribbonattached to the top looked like a toy. Her father, Mohammed, had foundit while harvesting wild thyme in a field near her house in the southernLebanese village of Marakeh, and had taken it home in his bag of herbs.
One evening four weeks ago, Rasha picked up the strange object andplayed with the ribbon, wondering what it was. “Then I felt a tingle ofelectricity,” she says. “I threw it from me and it exploded before ithit the floor.”
The blast tore off her left leg and wounded her mother, Alia, andbrother Qassem, 21, who were in the room at the time. The “toy” was acluster bomblet, just one of the estimated 1 million unexplodedsub-munitions scattered across the valleys and hills of south Lebanon”
http://mailman.mit.edu/pipermail/lebanon-articles/2007-February/000872.html
Ed,
Why don’t you post a link to the ‘toy looking cluster bombs” and produce a little research that shows ANYONE made the bombs to look like toys to kill kids.
While you’re at it, why don’t you show a couple of pictures of radical extremists strapping bombs to kids so they can blow up Israelis?
“”Abortion is a fundamental right between a woman and her doctor…”
Making it right in your own mind doesn’t make it right.
Posted by: fleettwood | June 20, 2007 at 08:11 AM”
Lets all examine this post and see how fleetwood has twisted the original message:
‘is a fundamental right’ Here the original poster Kev is saying that women have the right to an abortion.
‘Making it right in your own mind doesn’t make it right.’ Here fleetwood has twisted the first post to make it appear that Kev was saying that abortion is right.
I don’t know if fleetwood will understand the subtle difference in these two things, but we can hope.
“The babies did NOT make the CHOICE” That would be because they are not babies and do not have any more capacity to choose than a mushroom growing on the side of a tree.
“Perhaps all pro-war people should be shot in the face with an RPG before deciding to get us involved in places like Iraq. Just to know what it feels like, you know.”Posted by: Tom | June 20, 2007 at 08:13 AM
Not an rpg Tom, but been there, done that.
And it’s too bad you can’t defend your position on partial birth abortion, so like your friend Ed you bring in a totally irrelevant talking point.
But hey, that’s what you Secular Progressives do to justify your actions and ideologies. :)
“While you’re at it, why don’t you show a couple of pictures of radical extremists strapping bombs to kids so they can blow up Israelis?”
But those kids choose to do that….
Brian,Wow. I am really hoping you were trying t make a joke. WOW !!!
“And it’s too bad you can’t defend your position on partial birth abortion, so like your friend Ed you bring in a totally irrelevant talking point.
But hey, that’s what you Secular Progressives do to justify your actions and ideologies. :)”
Its too bad Republican cannot add anything constructive to a debate. But hey, that’s what right-wing nut jobs do to avoid arguing on the merits of their ideals.
SolDevVB,Which post were you hoping was a joke?
You mean just like the post you made brian, hypocrite in the striped coat? :)
blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/06/was_partialbirt.html#comment-73251318
That the kids chose to strap bombs to themselves. That equates to a child being aborted?
“pro-life leaders, in an effort to boost fundraising, have “misled the Body of Christ”
To quote Dave, “YA THINK?”
Duh.
“You mean just like the post you made brian, hypocrite in the striped coat? :)
Posted by: Republican | June 20, 2007 at 08:40 AM ”
Oh, pray tell, please elaborate.
Brian,
Feeding the troll does nothing but make the troll happy. Ignore it, and it goes away.
‘”I don’t support the war Tom, but the troops there made the CHOICE to join the military. The babies did NOT make the CHOICE to have their brains sucked out.Posted by: SolDevVB | June 20, 2007 at 08:16 AM”‘
‘”While you’re at it, why don’t you show a couple of pictures of radical extremists strapping bombs to kids so they can blow up Israelis?”But those kids choose to do that….’
Not Equating the two, but if you bring choice into a discussion of whether something is right or wrong, there are things like that which must be addressed.
What choice to the unborn children have. Why don’t we address that one first Brian.
Tom,Good point, I let my natural reaction to a personal attack precede my better judgement.
What choice to the unborn children have. Why don’t we address that one first Brian.
Posted by: SolDevVB | June 20, 2007 at 08:58 AM
So the choice of the “unborn” children supercede the choice of a “born” woman. It disgusts me that people are so quick to put the wrongly perceived “rights” of the unborn above the ACTUAL rights of women!
When will the fundies realize that they are the willing idiots for the right-wing power masters?
The fact that they are fighting among themselves is a good sign . . .
Exactly, TDT
abortion is wrong, no it isn’t, yes it is, no it isn’t. Never gets much further than that. Why bother?
Dobson’s words sound eerily familiar to the newest SCOTUS justice Alito. Alito said that chipping away at the law would be the way to go…which is why we opposed his nomination in the first place.
And lo and behold…look at how he’s ruled.
It would appear the majority ruled P_Mom, not just one.
Barely Sol. Had this been heard just a few months earlier, the outcome would have been far different and you know it.
And didn’t Pres. Clinton, the liberal god of our times, pass the legislation to ban patial birth abortion? Hmmmmmmm….
Uh, NO, he vetoed it.
Whoops, my bad
Ah, the never-ending debate…Much fun as it is to argue a point and know you’re right, asking an anti-choicer to understand the pro-choice stance is like asking a dog to see color.
Asking an anti-lifer is like asking Hitler to have compassion. Touché Lynz.
hee hee hee Lynz!
I know. I’ve seen the fundies turn their heads slowly, from side to side, at an angle, just like a dog when it sees something new and it is trying to understand…
Anti lifer? So would that make you anti woman? Anti choice? I think YOU are anti life, since you favor the unborn over the LIVE mother…
Are you kidding me?
The last abortion thread I was in I asked over 3 times for the pro-choice crowd here to at least recognize the stance of Pro-Life people.
All I got was the same old crap about:
Anti-choice, wants to control women, hates women, etc…
I understand the pro-choice movement just fine. I don’t mischaracterize them or call them names.
Can we get that from you?
Can you understand the pro-life stance?
If the woman’s life is truly in danger, then yes, abort. If the mother was raped and is willing to prosecute her rapist, then yes, abort.
If a woman had consensual sex and now wants to kill the outcome, then no. No abortion.
How does that make me anti woman?
Sol,
I have compassion for women in difficult situations, that’s why I’m pro-choice.
But it doesn’t really matter what I say or how well I defend my point of view. You’re set in your thinking and I’m set in mine. So why bother? I wasn’t trying to make a dig, I was trying to point out that this debate has no resolution. And in my mind, doing the same thing and expecting different results is the definition of futility.
You can try to b!tch slap me all you want, but comparing me to Hitler isn’t going to change my thinking because I’ll never accept your premise. I could come back with some snarky little comment,but it just seems like a waste of energy.
You see how it works? Round and round we go.
Sol,
It doesn’t make you anti-woman.
It is nothing more than their refusal to acknowledge our stance or complete inability to form a rational argument.
“asking an anti-choicer to understand the pro-choice stance is like asking a dog to see color.”
” I wasn’t trying to make a dig,”
??????????
Nathan,
I understand the pro-life movement just fine. I used to be of the same persuasion. But life has a funny way of changing your mind sometimes. No amount of words from me will do that for anyone. It was never the intention of my post to toss an insult or change anyone’s mind.
Farmie,I reserve the right to call you anti-LIFE as I have just posted that there are reasons abortions should exist.
You on the other hand hold absolutely NO REGARD for life. You solely support the DECISION or RIGHTS of a woman. You in no way what so ever contemplate the fate of the LIVING HUMAN BEING inside said woman.
ABSOLUTE DISREGARD FOR LIFE. Absolutely disgusting.
Sol,
It was an analogy on impossibility. Do you not understand how analogies work?
Oh, God, here we go again.
So tell me Sol, why is it that you get to determine the situation behind abortion? How do you KNOW that these women are using abortion as birth control? I realize that yes, there are women out there who do that, and I believe that they will answer to whomever it is that does the final “judging” (you know, the ONLY one who has the right to judge????) but they need not answer to you or to I. Besides, in many of these situations, these women have made their choice with FAR MUCH MORE than that in mind… perhaps you have had a personal experience with a family member with this and that is what makes you so bitter about it? Understandable, yes. But it still does not give you the right to dictate what a woman can or cannot do with her body. The only person who gets to dictate that is that woman. And if she makes a decision like that, she is the only one to face the consequences in the long run…
Round and round…If you all don’t mind, I think I’ll be stepping off of the carousel now.
What’s that I see? Oh, it’s the high road, off I go…
“You in no way what so ever contemplate the fate of the LIVING HUMAN BEING inside said woman.”
I have great respect for life and the living. What is inside a woman is a FETUS, not a human being.
When you start issuing social security numbers to fetuses, let me know.
The fetus as living human being is YOUR RELIGIOUS DOCTRINE. You are advocating making it law for those of us who do not share your religion.
But you have nothing in common with the taliban. Oh no. not ever.
KFG,
You truely and honestly think that the baby in the mothers womb only hours before birth is not to be considered a living human being?
The only difference in saying the child is a human life is location?
It is not a religious doctrine, it is common sense.
Ask a mother in her forth month or beyond if that is her child inside her or a fetus.
Ask the IRS (an agent of the Federal Government) if a fetus is a person for dependancy status.
I think the IRS, of course, has final say in the matter. They are a baby when you can deduct them.
The IRS decides when a human is a human. Great way to think about life there Brian.
As I said, ask a woman in her 4th month or later, after she has been feeling the kicking and squirming if what is inside her is her child or her fetus.
The IRS… HAHAHAHAHAHA Holy crap I can’t believe you wrote that!!! HAHAHAHAHAH
Your kids are tax deductions. Holy crap Brian may you never procreate.
Ask a mother in her forth month or beyond if that is her child inside her or a fetus.Posted by: SolDevVB | June 20, 2007 at 11:19 AM
Uh, exactly the point…but I doubt it’s your point.
Can you really not see that what you wrote is a fair statement of the pro-choice point of view?
Just ask the mother.
I think brian’s point is valid. Make all the jokes you want, but the point is NO institution other than churches recognize a fetus as a person.
We arent looking at these things as how we regard life. We are talking about LAWS here. But thanks for painting us with that brush about how we have no regard for life.
Abortions for birth control “hours before birth”? Holy SHIT solly, could you reach any further? I think if an abortion is done “hours” before birth, it was not done as “birth control”. Good grief!
Solly, seriously and with all due respect, you use those false analogies and false choices all the time. It doesnt do you any favors.
And I LOVE how you speak for pregnant women. Especially since you have no chance of ever actually BEING a pregnant woman and speaking from experience.
You act like a woman who has an abortion has no regret, no grief and no sadness about the available choices. Yes, I am sure that after carrying a child for four months, having an abortion would not be the “easy” decision you portray it to me.
Grief or no, she still has the RIGHT not to be FORCED to give birth. No matter what YOUR OPINIONS about it might be. It is her choice, not yours.
Now do you see why we call you the “forced birth” crowd?
Legality of abortion comes down to one thing: what does the Government define as the beginning of a human being’s life? In other words, when does a person become a person?
Note I am only talking about legality of abortion, not whether it is right or wrong or whether anyone should have one or not, just Legality.
This question seems easy, but it is a lot more complicated. Currently the Government, by way of almost all of its laws, identifies a person as one that is born.If person, or baby, is defined as beginning when a fertilized egg attaches intra uterine, there are many ramifications. All laws, rights, and concerns afforded to a 1 year old must then be applied to an unborn ‘baby’. If this is not done, than any reasoning for defining a fetus as a baby would be untrue.
“Abortions for birth control “hours before birth”? Holy SHIT solly, could you reach any further?”
Where did I post that?
These late term abortions that the topic is on, would not those babies be viable? They were forced out of the womb by forceps and at the last few inches, had their brains sucked out.
How can anyone support that?
If abortion is made illegal on the grounds that it kills a living person, then, logically, the Government must recognize an unborn baby as a person. Therefore, an unborn baby would have, in addition to the right to life, all the other liberties, and rights that any American would have.
Including being a dependant on my tax form.
Solly, if I were you, I’d observe the first rule of holes here.
Exactly how many abortions are performed “hours before birth”?
Do you think it is done for ANY reason “hours before birth” OTHER than to protect the mother’s life?
Why do YOU think an abortion would occur “hours before birth”? Just for birth control?
Or do ya think it might be a life threatening situation?
But nice use of the scare tactic meme (all this will lead to abortions HOURS before birth). You get style points.
Brian-
i won;t comment about abortion, another than “why comment”. however, i will comment about the irs and it’s validity. The irs said I owed them $1000. I said they did not. I was right.
“Posted by: brian | June 20, 2007 at 12:54 PM”
That is a clear and excellent post brian. You cant grant SOME rights without granting ALL rights.
It’s amazing to watch the secular progressives avoid the “killing floor” of the abortion clinic.
They will discuss the IRS, tax deductions, how awful the Christians are…
But when it comes to the reality of the procedure, they avoid it like the plague.
That says volumes.
That is a clear and excellent post brian. You cant grant SOME rights without granting ALL rights.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | June 20, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Sure you can. The right to vote is limited by age, the right to be president is limited by birth, etc.
Ya know troll, no one wants to watch a knee replacement surgery or gall bladder surgery either.
It doesnt mean we think they are bad.
But nice try at the false analogy. We are amused, and we do encourage you to try again.
And exactly HOW many abortions have you witnessed so you can be a critic?
“Solly, if I were you, I’d observe the first rule of holes here.
Exactly how many abortions are performed “hours before birth”?
Do you think it is done for ANY reason “hours before birth” OTHER than to protect the mother’s life?
Why do YOU think an abortion would occur “hours before birth”? Just for birth control?
Or do ya think it might be a life threatening situation?
But nice use of the scare tactic meme (all this will lead to abortions HOURS before birth). You get style points.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | June 20, 2007 at 12:56 PM ”
Where did I post “Hours before birth” Farmie?
LJ, I see your point, but the rights to be president or the age of voting are NOT rights guarenteed by the constitution. They are regulated by law.
If you denied u.s. born citizens to be president, then you would have a constitutional issue.
Of course, you cant even sign contracts under the age of 18. Why would anyone be allowed to vote if they are deemed too immature to sign contracts?
Apples and oranges.
Privacy in medical decisions has ALREADY been declared a constitutional right. By SCOTUS.
Big difference.
“LJ, I see your point, but the rights to be president or the age of voting are NOT rights guarenteed by the constitution. They are regulated by law.”
Actually, they are “rights” regulated by the US Constitution
I’m sorry solly, it was nathan who posted this:
“You truely and honestly think that the baby in the mothers womb only hours before birth is not to be considered a living human being?”
Sorry to have been wrong in attributing it to you.
Isn’t it interesting that a full grown chimp or benobo, with the measured intelligence of a 3 year old human child, can be subjected to all sorts of “inhuman” experiments, and even euthanized without even a peep from some. Yet the destruction of a six week old clump of human cells is “immoral”, “uncivilized”, and in violation of God’s laws.
…waits to hear the standard line that only humans are endowed with the “spark” of the divine…a distinctly human viewpoint…didn’t I hear those same words applied to simians in Planet of the Apes ?
No worries Grrl.
Got that abortion question figured out yet? Chuckle…
I agree with FOF, it is an incremental victory for the pro-life casue, with a lot more work to do. Foremost, to educate folks about the humanity of the child in womb. Changing hearts is more important and effective than changing laws.
LJ, I’m sorry if my wording is confusing.
There is NO constitutional right to be president.
There is NO constitutional right to vote below the age of 18.
That is what I meant.
Of course they can be restricted. They are NOT rights. And all rights can be clarified by law. If those laws violate the rights from the constitution, well,…
THAT is why we have SCOTUS!
BFAH,
Nope. Left unmolested, the chimp will always be a chimp. The six week old ‘clump of cells’ will most likely render a human being.
“Changing hearts is more important and effective than changing laws.”
So… how are you doing on that “changing hearts” thing? How’s your current strategy working for ya?
It’s legal and safe, just as it ought to be. Outlawing abortions won’t stop them. Where is the concern for life that will profoundly affect women when they start having dangerous back alley procedures?
Exactly, sol,
You devalue the life of a chimp even if it is more intelligent than a child under 3 years of age….standard species bias.
As a Hindu, I can assure you that the soul that entered the earth plane at conception, knew full well what choice it was making.
A soul may well choose to enter knowing that it will end up aborted.
So, the cultural belief that the ‘baby’ doesn’t choose to be aborted is just a cultural belief, not a fact.
Christianity (or more accurately Churchianity) has many misconceptions about the world of Spirit.
Planet of the Apes?????
BFAH= animal rights wacko.
BFAH
HAHAHAHAOK, given the choice between saving a 1 year old human and a three year old chimp from a fire – and you can only choose one, which do you choose?
So, a Nazi can “devalue” the lif od a Jew, or a homosexual, or a Jehovah’s Witness, then? After all, they weren’t “human” either.
It would depend on my relationship to them. If the chimp were mine…that I’d raised from a baby…you bet I’d save it first.
BFAH,
HAHAHAHHAHAHAMan they just keep getting better!!! Can you prove a Jew is not human. Bet I can prove a chimp isn’t human!!!!
BTW, are you saying that you are a Nazi and devalue Jews?
LJ, I’m sorry if my wording is confusing.
There is NO constitutional right to be president.
There is NO constitutional right to vote below the age of 18.
That is what I meant.
Of course they can be restricted. They are NOT rights. And all rights can be clarified by law. If those laws violate the rights from the constitution, well,…
THAT is why we have SCOTUS!
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | June 20, 2007 at 01:26 PM
I must have worn out my brain on the other thread. Or the previous one,or just getting up this morning. I have no idea what you mean :(
May you NEVER be in that situation BFAH. Holy CRAP what happened to you as a child?
One of the prosecutors in the Jo Co DA office is speaking out. I heard her last night. She left and is working for Morrison in Topeka now. She said Phill is ruining the DA’s office. She told many horror stories. A murderer was up for parole on Monday and no one from the DA’s office was there to represent the people of Johnson County. The attorney who should have been there was playing golf. She told of another case where the defendant was charged with 5 felonies and had no attorney (she called this a no brainer win) and Kline’s people let him plea down to a misdemeanor and time served. And Kline is calling that a win.
The only case he has won was that murder trial last week where the defendant’s mother testified against him. DUIs are being thrown out because evidence is lost. Criminal defense attorneys are lining up to get easy wins since the prosecutors are so incompetent. 20 of 32 attorneys in the DA’s office have left since January, some fired and some quit.
She said someone needs to file a FOIA and find out how much restitution has been collected and paid since January in Johnson County.
Here’s the best part: Phill is working 6 to 8 hours a week – for $143K a year.
Okay folks,
Here are some photos and videos. It is very graphic, but tells the true medical post effects of abortion. Some of the links are how the procedure is done.
Tell me, what parts of these babies you do not classify as human beings?
***WARNING***Children should not watch these videos or view the images as they are medically graphic.***WARNING***
Second and third trimesters abortion babies.http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm
Body Parts of aborted babies video 5.00 minuteshttp://www.pfltv.com/imag/
For more images and information:http://www.priestsforlife.org/images/index.htm#galleries
Solly
HAHAHAHAOK, given the choice between saving a fetus and a one year old from a fire – and you can only choose one, which do you choose?
Or better yet….
OK, given the choice between saving a 20 year old woman and an unborn fetus from a fire, and you can only choose one, which do you choose?
HAHAHAHA. Except it’s not funny…
How would I extract the fetus Farmie?
Or saving a 13 year old girl from a fire and saving a 50+ year old grrl from a fire…which do you choose? :)
Sol,
There is no objective proof either way, is there? The point is, as has been pointed out so often I’m sick of it, morality changes over time and space…To a devoted Nazi, they weren’t human, and they developed their own science to prove it. (does this sound like the intelligent design argument>?).
BTW, Catholic priests who came with the Conquistadores to Mexico found it very hard to justify to the Aztecs the need for the “blood” of Jesus to save the world, while at the same time denouncing the Aztec religious need for “blood” to save the world.
Morality is always subjective. It is even acknowledged as such by every Christian denomination. The catechism of the Catholic Church puts individual conscience above everything.
Luther stated “here I stand, I cannot go against conscience” when he appeared before the Holy Roman Emperor and his legal/religious court.
It would depend on my relationship to them. If the chimp were mine…that I’d raised from a baby…you bet I’d save it first.
Posted by: BFAH | June 20, 2007 at 01:32 PM
That, I am afraid, is a poor testament. People everyday elect to choose to save other people, instead of their own “possessions”I am sorry that you would be so callous. I have spent a good part of my adult life riskingor potentially risking my life orputting it on hold for others. I certainly would have no problem distinguishing saving an animal, no matter how dear, and saving you. And that includes those that I intensely dislike.
What the hell is it the troll doesnt understand about what I said concerning surgery.
Life saving BRAIN surgery isnt fun to watch either, but no one says it is BAD.
But keep trying troll. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. You still have about ten hours to randomly post until you are accidently correct about something.
But please, dont let me interfer with your fear mongering or blood lust…
clarification:”And that includes those that I intensely dislike.” does not equal anybody on this blog
LJ,
I’m sorry, I don’t consider a sentient being with the intelligence of a 3 year old a “possession” any more than I consider a sentient child a possession..Again, your species bias is showing.
Many years ago, even though I had faithfully been taking birth control, I became pregnant. I was very young and afraid and made what I thought was the best decision at the time; to have an abortion. I still feel that it was the best decision for me. Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge and remember, I will answer to one entity, and that is NOT you.
Again, your species bias is showing.
Posted by: BFAH | June 20, 2007 at 01:44 PM
You are correct. It is and it ever shall be showing. I will indeed protect the life of any of my species versus the life of another species.
solly….
Stop nit picking.
If the fetus is viable, as you say, it doesnt matter WHAT meathod of extraction, does it?
So which is it you would save? The fetus or the already born woman?
And yet we find it noble in dogs, even cats when they put their lives and the lives of their litters at risk to save their human families in the case of fires, earthquakes, etc.
I propose there is a certain nobility there that escapes the “civilized” human.
LJ, I know this isnt what you mean, but I gotta say, if someone drew down on my dog, I would have NO hesitation to kill him before he killed my dog.
I’d pay the price, but in that instance, the dog would win over that POS human.
That’s what you say now kfg, but after your twentieth year in prison, I’m sure you’d change your mind. :)
Farmie, apples and oranges. The question wasn’t a human putting an animal at risk, a human and animal both at risk. If it were your dog and a stranger, whom would you choose.
Farmie, to answer your question, I would choose the youngest most likely to survive the rescue. Youngest HUMAN that is.
Repub,I doubt it. I feel the same way as Farmie in that scenario, but it is a different scenario that originaly posed.
And on the flip side Farmie and Repub; should someone draw down on your dog, would you take the bullet for him/her? Tough to say not being in the situation, but I’m betting we all would.
SO Solly, why dont you just say it how it is?
Given the choice, you’d save the fetus over the 20 year old.
Of course I’d take a bullet for my dog. Of course, then the dog would really miss me and hate going to a different home, but I’d do ANYTHING for my dog.
Sure Farmie. If the fetus would survive and have a full life, then yes. Defend the defensless.
And I must believe, then, that the “rabbit” tests, whereby we put chemicals in the eyes of rabbits to see how quickly those chemicals destroy the tissue is OK…because it’s for our safety.
In fact, any level of pain, trauma, and mental anguish..even if it’s not “human” anguish…is justified.
And, if “we” don’t find a certain skin color, or religion, or height, or weight, “human” enough for us, then I guess we can do what we want with them too.
But…the considered decision of a woman to follow her conscience to terminate, as humanely as possible, the “life” of a cell cluster is always intolerable. And, BTW, we’re primarily concerned here with abortions before the first trimester.
The problem here is the “all or nothing” mentality…There will never be a line in the sand to define what is wrong or what is right…WE make the choice and WE have to live (or die) with it.
Since I’m a movie buff, I’ll mention a scene from “The Shoes of the Fisherman” where a young Jesuit priest is being questioned by one of the Holy Offices about writings of his on prehistoric men. He is asked if the skull of a prehistoric Cro-Magnon man containing an ax blade was a case of murder. He answers that he can’t say because he doesn’t know the circumstances behind the act. Needless to say, this doesn’t go down well with the Holy Office.
So, believe all you ant in the unchangeability and immutability of the “laws” of God. I’ll stick with my conscience and the circumstances in which I find myself.
Let me see the logic…
You will support no abortions as long as the IRS views the unborn child as a human life?
So the issue is not about choice at all!
It is about getting the IRS to recognize the unborn child as a human life.
So do you support the IRS recognizing the unborn child as a human life?
I will.
Hell, I’m for post-birth abortions, up to and including 18 years of age.
Off the deep end much BFAH?
Who said animal testing was OK? And you lead into skin color and religion next?
How about you ask an OB/GYN when life begins.
Nathan, don’t be so purposefully dense (I think it’s purposeful..maybe that’s my error)and pedantic…The point was not about the IRS but that no institution of our government recognizes a fetus as having rights.
I suppose you like Miracle on 34th Street where Kris Kringle really IS Santa Claus because the NY Post Office delivered all the Santa mail to him…sheesh
Why not just leave the choice to the woman, her doctor and her God?
“Not our choice to make” sounds like a good philosophy.
On the liberal blah, blah thread, conservatives are decrying liberals that want to “control” others – how is this different from that?
Safe, legal and rare.
Promote comprehensive sex education and the availability of condoms.
So if te IRS decides, then it is OK to kill the kid as long as he/she doesn’t have a SSN yet?
WS— Rare????
Sol,
Not at all…just look back on human history and tell me where I’ve gone off the deep end…
Were Native Americans purposely exterminated as part of US policy in the 19th century? Did the Nazis devalue the lives of certain groups as not human? Are the people of Darfur being slaughtered? Was there a genocide against the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire?
Should I go on….
We justify to ourselves whatever we want…and we’re willing to follow through if we have a group big enough that thinks the same way.
BFAH,
The point is still the same.
If your stance is that the fetus is not a life simply because the state doesn’t recognize it as such then the argument is about changing the states view of the unborn.
Thus we are back to the argument is the fetus a human life worthy of protecting?
So, is your stance that the unborn child at 8 months is not a human life worthy of protecting but the 1 month old child is?
The only difference being location?
Where is the common sense in that?
“WS— Rare????”
Yes, rare, Mr. DevVB. Through more extensive sex education and availability of contraception, including condoms, the number of unwanted pregnancies will be reduced.
Contrary to the thoughts of a few others, the issue is not abortion, it is unwanted pregnancies. Having sex should not be “punished” by having to carry a pregnancy to term.
So, yes, I want to see abortion as a rare medical procedure.
But it still is not my choice to make.
BFAH,
And I feel that the same is being done on the abortion issue. Unborn children are devalued and discarded.
Same point applies doesn’t it?
Just because a group of people feel that an unborn child is not worth protecting, does that MEAN that an unborn child is not worth protecting.
Nathan, you are being deliberately obtuse.
NO ONE said what you are saying about the IRS and the fetus.
Only a literalist like you would stretch that far. It was an example, not a demand or “condition” for abortion.
Big eye roll.
Ya know, some would not be so kind as to say “obtuse”.
Some would say just plain arguementitive and stupid.
As a Hindu, I can assure you that the soul that entered the earth plane at conception, knew full well what choice it was making.
A soul may well choose to enter knowing that it will end up aborted.
So, the cultural belief that the ‘baby’ doesn’t choose to be aborted is just a cultural belief, not a fact.
Christianity (or more accurately Churchianity) has many misconceptions about the world of Spirit.
Posted by: happy | June 20, 2007 at 01:29 PM
I’m just reposting this since I found it interesting. What do pro-life Christians think about this Hindu belief?
“Ask the IRS (an agent of the Federal Government) if a fetus is a person for dependancy status.
I think the IRS, of course, has final say in the matter. They are a baby when you can deduct them.
Posted by: brian | June 20, 2007 at 12:24 PM “
Please post where ANYONE said these things:
“You will support no abortions as long as the IRS views the unborn child as a human life?
So the issue is not about choice at all!
It is about getting the IRS to recognize the unborn child as a human life.”
Nice job of diverting and twisting the discussion. We are amused, and we do encourage you to try AGAIN!
For a scientist BFAH sure does everything he can to avoid discussing the medical colegal and ethical aspects of abortion. Instead he uses analogies of war or some other human tragedy to ’sugar coat’ the approach.
I guess all that evolution talk he made about what consists of human being was just all lies – especially in the developing stage. :)
Brian did, look above KFG
You can get contraceptives at most any drug store. You can also get them at family planning facilities.
Sex ed belongs mainly in the home. There should be some in schools, but the responsibility lies with the parents.
Death should not be a punishment for having sex either.
My stance, Nathan, is moral relativism. I can’t say for certain, black and white, that any one person or thing under any particular circumstance is worth more or less than any other person or thing.
Would I put the life of a young child above that of a senile older person…perhaps most of the time, but I can’t say for sure.
Is a fetus a human life. Maybe it is, I don’t know. But I leave it to the mother and to her doctor, and to her conscience to decide what is best for all involved.
Is a mother in Darfur justified in leaving behind to a certain death a weak child who can’t make the journey with her other 12 children…when in her mind she and some of the other 12 might die as a result? it’s not my choice.
And pleeaaassse don’t lay on me the unchangeability of the laws of God…condoning war was never in the mind of jesus…ever…but theologians have come up with “just war theory” to legitimize it.
And if you are a Christian then I’m justified in asking that you and your father send me all the money you have, and that you sell off what you own to help me with my financial difficulties. After all, the Gospels say, give to whoever asks of you.
I’m sure, however, you will make a considered choice based on your own assessment of the situation and (hopefully) refuse. That doesn’t mean you’re violating the laws jesus set down for us…It means that you’ve used the brain God gave you to decide what is right or wrong in a given situation.
kfg,
Using the IRS as a standard to measure the viability of a fetus is like offering birth control pills to a 50+ year old Lesbian. Both are useless paths of irrelevant discussion.
I see that literalists also do NOT see sarcasm when it is right in front of them.
“They are a baby when you can deduct them.”
Yes please nathan, take that to mean that BFAH thinks the IRS gets to declare when a fetus is a baby and when it is not.
Big EFFIN eye roll.
Could you please be MORE obtuse?
And NEITHER is a irrelevant as a blog troll….
“Sex ed belongs mainly in the home.”
So why is the Bush Administration spending millions of tax dollars on “abstinence only” training?
republican
{sing to the refain of Jimmy Cracked Corn}
Listen to the bullshit fly, listen to the bullshit fly….
walk on by…
BFAH,
What a perposterous stance:
“Is a fetus a human life. Maybe it is, I don’t know. But I leave it to the mother and to her doctor, and to her conscience to decide what is best for all involved.”
Would you say the same thing about a 1 month old child?
What is the difference between a one month old child and an 8 month old fetus?
Besides location and attachment…
Seriously, you sit here and will say that you don’t know if it is a life?
Lets break it down some more.
What is the difference between an 8 month old fetus in the womb and an 8 month old fetus removed from the womb by c section to avoid complications?
Once again, is life soley determined by attachment to the mother and location?
You can say it is up to the mother and her doctor, but I could say the same thing about a mother who just killed her 1 year old in the bathtub.
Who are we to say what a mother ever does to her child at any age then?
WS, Ask him.
Thanks for your defense kfg ;-)
Let’s put this IRS analogy to rest.
What is required for anyone to be accessed taxes under the rules of the IRS?
Anyone? Anyone?
:D
BFAH,I am assuming that you are some sort of scientist based on posts of others. Should that be true, what is the scientific definition of life?
nathan,
What does a 1 month old child have to do with the price of tea in China. The question is whether a fetus is a sentient human from conception. Since a good deal of the country is on the OTHER side of your stance, apparently many people don’t see things as you do.
That’s your problem, Nathan. You don’t seem to be able to see that when an issue is undecided in the body politic, it should remain unregulated. You’re free to believe whatever you want, but until a supermajority of the rest of the people in the country agree with you, there is nothing to legislate.
Sol,
You sure you want to go down that road…you’ve already devalued other forms of “life”….so “life” really isn’t the issue, is it?
Republican…psssttt
assessed….assessed
BFAH,
“Sol,
Not at all…just look back on human history and tell me where I’ve gone off the deep end…
Were Native Americans purposely exterminated as part of US policy in the 19th century? Did the Nazis devalue the lives of certain groups as not human? Are the people of Darfur being slaughtered? Was there a genocide against the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire?”
***********************************
Just follow the masses like in your examples then?
well BFAH, you are welcome, but I know you are perfectly capable of defending yourself.
The trolls and the obtuse and the terminally closed minded have no intellectual standing when they post crap like they did about the IRS and TOTALLY twist your words and imagine more words between the lines.
Heheheheh. A local editorial here supporting me in my job said the two things I cant stand are stupidity and incompetence. And that’s true. I’d just add mindless bigotry to the list :)
It would depend on my relationship to them. If the chimp were mine…that I’d raised from a baby…you bet I’d save it first.
Posted by: BFAH | June 20, 2007 at 01:32 PM
I had to run an errand, and thought about this post. I think it is sad, and I won;t argue the point, because there is not cenral point that we can agree/disagree on from there. i will just tell you the following
1) I have indeed heard the screams of horses, cattle and pigs as they were caught in a barn fire. The screams of terror, and the screams of …. I have indeeed risked my life, as did others, in trying to save these animals unless it was hopelessly lost.If you have never heard those sounds, count yourself lucky and blessed by whatever you call fate. It is enough to make your blood freeze, and your heart break.
2) I have a dog. A dog that is part of my family. I love that dog more than I even like most people. That dog and i have a rapport, like old friends. i would probably give my life for saving that dog
3) No matter how hard it would be too listen to the screams of animals, or give up the life of my dog, I would give up both if it meant saving them or a human child in a fire.
I make no apologies, and I don;t really give a damn if you think that is species bias. I have saved both babies and animals from harm. The babies win. Every fricking time.
BFAH,I’d just LOVE to go down that road. Is this within your chosen discipline?
Jesus WEPT! I guess you guys have never heard of the first rule of holes….
“You can say it is up to the mother and her doctor, but I could say the same thing about a mother who just killed her 1 year old in the bathtub.”
I’m tempted to ring the BDP bell on THAT false analogy.
So Solly, are you acknowledging that BFAH is correct? You didnt say his examples were not true, you just said this:
“Just follow the masses like in your examples then?
I guess you are implicitly saying he is correct. But where the HELL did he say they were examples to be followed?
Nice job on twisting his words…
Sol,
I said…it is a matter for your conscience…No law will prevent you from doing what you perceive to be right. There may be a price to pay, but that will enter into your decision.
Laws against murder don’t stop them. Securities laws don’t prevent insider trading. These people have made a personal judgment (no matter how warped we may think that judgement) and weighed their benefits against the risks and rationalized all of this in their consciences.
Adulterers do the same moral thing, even though there are generally no laws against it…we all know however, that this is a violation of a personal oath.
It’s illegal to run a red light. But, have you ever done it when the friggin’ thing has been red for 10 minutes and there’s no traffic?
So, make abortion illegal. Will it stop anything? Will it stop the woman on the edge of a psychiatric breakdown from seeking one? Will she justify it in her own mind? You bet…
And, as I said, until you convince a majority of the body politic, then you’re just shooting your mouth off.
As I said, I’m a moral relativist. I will do whatever I perceive to be right or justified in a given situation, after I’ve weighed the pros and cons. If you say you’re fundamentally any different, you’re a saint or a liar.
TY again, kfg :-)
LJ, I respect your choice of humans. You are a better person than I. I dont think it’s species bias the way BFAH meant it.
But I WOULD think it was species bias if you criticized me for MY choice to save my dog.
You make your choices and answer for them. I will make my choices and answer for them. I think on the issue of animal vs human, we can agree to disagree.
And perhaps we could agree that given even the slightest possibility of success, we would save them ALL.
http://www.fwhc.org/qa/ab-debate.htm
“95% of all abortions take place in the first 15 weeks.”
“There is no way to know when “feelings” occur. Probably sensation develops around the 28-30 week of fetal development when the spinal cord and all the nerves become well-enough developed.”
“Noted scientist Carl Sagan suggested that characteristically human brain waves might be a useful measurement. Uniquely human brain waves are measurable and they begin at about 30 weeks. Before that the human fetus is certainly alive, but not differentiated from other living creatures by the uniquely human capability of thought.”
Speaking of animals vs humans….
My chickens are getting mighty thirsty since I spent so much time HERE with the humans today!
Gotta go.
Farmie,
Were Native Americans purposely exterminated as part of US policy in the 19th century? Did the Nazis devalue the lives of certain groups as not human? Are the people of Darfur being slaughtered? Was there a genocide against the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire?Should I go on….
We justify to ourselves whatever we want…and we’re willing to follow through if we have a group big enough that thinks the same way.Posted by: BFAH | June 20, 2007 at 02:11 PM
That’s your problem, Nathan. You don’t seem to be able to see that when an issue is undecided in the body politic, it should remain unregulated. You’re free to believe whatever you want, but until a supermajority of the rest of the people in the country agree with you, there is nothing to legislate.Posted by: BFAH | June 20, 2007 at 02:33 PM
BTW, I thought BFAH was female – not that it matters, but a lot of folks are referring to BFAH as ‘he’
Or was it just Cosmos that is female…
One more thing… :)
Solly, when you first started posting here, I thought you were a typical wingnut religious bigot.
I was wrong in thinking that.
While I almost always disagree with your posts, I have come to realize that you are sincere in wanting to find a way to do THE “right thing”.
We dont always agree on what the “right thing” is, but I do think you are honestly always looking to do the right thing.
Same for you LJ.
Sol,
I’m from New England. ;-)
Seconded..what she said.
I dont know that cosmos’ gender has ever been known. I think BFAH is the poster formerly known as Brian. I could be wrong, but in any event, BFAH is just as brilliant as Brian!
Wow, Thanx. That really does mean a lot you two.
BFAH, wasn’t trying to pry. I’d get upset if I kept getting called ‘her’ or ’she’
aw gee, shucks, kfg…back atcha…even if you do “live” in western KS
Sol,
Heated discussions don’t have to be “mean” discussions. You are rarely, if ever, out of line. I do consider what you say carefully (maybe later that night sometimes) and it does affect my thinking. I guess that’s all you can ask…that your opinion meant something to someone else, even if they ultimately end up disagreeing with it.
Thanx again BFAH. To tell you the truth, Farmie was spot on when I first joined this blog. I have gone from died in the wool GOP supporting Bush apologist to a Libertarian that can’t wait to get Bush out of office.
I have also ..
Well never mind. Suffice it to say that you and many on here have enlightened me to no end. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and your time.
Well, Sol,
To change is to be alive…keep on living and changing.
You too BFAH. Take care.
awwwww :)
kumbaya y’all. :D
Repub,
You have many good points..if you’d leave the blanket snide remarks out, I think you’d find you’d get less flak.
Back, with chicken poop and stock tank water on my boots…
“To change is to be alive…keep on living and changing.”
Yep. Even if I do “live” in western Ks. Heheheheheeh :)
Still gotta go though.
Some of my gal pals are coming out to the farm tonight to drink my famous, homemade sangria. And to eat my famous shrimp with lemon and garlic, in butter and olive oil over linguini. Oh and fresh veggie salad from the garden.
Oh yeah, and we’ll listen to the blues from XM I get through the satellite dish and run through my BIG speakers out here in the country. We’ll listen from the newly mowed and watered lawn.
That’s how I live in western ks…..
I’m still laughing about that!
Would never happen BFAH, there are too many here that hate me. :)
They do the same to me and call it justified. We I do it to them, they run away as Fisters or do the “walk on by” mantra. Hypocritical don’t you think?
Besides, getting flak doesn’t bother me as this is an opinion style forum.
And you will notice BFAH, when I do make a well, thought out remark it gets the “walk on by” remarks or an ad hominem remark.
Just check the posts in any topic following mine for proof. :)
Have a good one farmie. Care to post the recipes?
KFG, can I be one of the girls, even though I’m a boy???…I love shrimp !! Well, I’m almost a girl…I’m hung like the proverbial hamster :-)
Repub,
I hear ya, and it might take a while to become “reformed” in the minds of a lot of people, but you can do it…I promise to resist my all too human urge to be smart mouthed if you promise to try not to be too.
BFAH,
So from your earlier posts, I am guessing that BFAH does NOT mean Big F**ing Ape Hater.
:-)))) You got that right !!!
All they are is initials..including a confirmation name.
hee hee hee BFAH, sure you can be “one of the girls”! I promise my friends and I do not measure anything but the distance from the front steps to the ice chest.
hee hee hee
I dont really have the food stuff written down. It’s all in my head and heart at the moment. I never measure a damn thing.
But so far, no complaints :)
As a Hindu, I can assure you that the soul that entered the earth plane at conception, knew full well what choice it was making.
A soul may well choose to enter knowing that it will end up aborted.
So, the cultural belief that the ‘baby’ doesn’t choose to be aborted is just a cultural belief, not a fact.
Christianity (or more accurately Churchianity) has many misconceptions about the world of Spirit.
Posted by: happy | June 20, 2007 at 01:29 PM
I’m just reposting this since I found it interesting. What do pro-life Christians think about this Hindu belief?
Pro-life Christians treat the soul of the unborn as if it didn’t exist.
They would deny the preborn the immortality that the soul possesses.
To wit…pro-life Christians deny the truth of the immortality of each being and thus claim death as the god they worship.
Hindus know better…Christ conquered death…there is no such thing…we are immortal souls enjoying the earth for a short time.
Well happy, I’m not pro-life certainly, but if you follow your line of reasoning to extremes, then there is no reason to legislate against any act that might cause a human death…and that I cannot buy.
Happy,
I had been trying to keep religion out of this debate, but since you keep pushing it here is my opinion and my opinion alone.
Before the couple even met, God knew that they would get pregnant. He knew what decision would be made regarding the pregnancy. Let’s say they aborted. In my opinion, God already knew this and allowed it for His purpose. Now, was that purpose to see how the mother would react? If she realized her mistake and was remorseful, would that save her eternal soul? Unknown by me. I don’t pretend to know the will of God.
On the other hand, if people sit around and do nothing while innocent babies are slaughtered, what kind of mark does that leave on their soul? How will they be judged in the end?
Every impasse, hard choice, tragedy, joy and sorrow in our paths was placed there for a reason. How I deal with those is what defines me as a person, and how I will be judged when I die.
Now, for the non-believers; I would rather believe in God and be ridiculed and be wrong than to not believe in him, die and be wrong.
I thought my posts were clear earlier, but apparently some people (Nathan, Republican) still managed to misread them. I have faith that there is some logical reasoning process in everyone’s mind so I will try again.
Abortion is currently legal because the Gov’t does not recognize an unborn baby as a person.
If the Gov’t recognized the unborn as people, abortion would clearly be murder and would then be covered by already existing laws about murder. The unborn would then also be covered by all laws, rights, regulation, etc that would govern as soon as they come out of the womb.
copy and paste from Opinion Line
Goodie, now we can continue to put the embryos down the sewer instead of doing research that could help millions of people since Bush has vetoed the stem cell research bill.Posted by: heckuva job Georgie
Didn’t KS just pass a law stating that if a woman is beaten and is pregnant and any harm comes to the fetus, the perp would be charged for BOTH parties? The mother and the unborn?
Of course! We can enact any legislation that we want to, God doesn’t mind.
What I was saying was in answer to the IDEA that the unborn don’t choose abortion.
It is a cultural belief and not all cultures believe that the unborn are incapable of choosing.
Iraq Violence Leading to Abortions, Drug Abuse Among Civilians6/19,2007
Pregnant Iraqi women who have been forced from their homes by worsening violence are obtaining illegal abortions because they are unable to get medical care for themselves and their unborn, according to a new report by a national humanitarian group.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/06/report_iraq_vio.html
“On the other hand, if people sit around and do nothing while innocent babies are slaughtered, what kind of mark does that leave on their soul? How will they be judged in the end?”
Sol, I agree with your reasoning. However, without trying to purport to know the will of God, I think it would be more important to follow the things He explicitly commanded and directed. Then if there is time, go save the unborn.
For example, how many people that protest outside abortion clincs spend the same amount of time visiting those in prison, something explicitly called for in the Bible (Hebrews 13:3?
The anti’s here keep saying that we as a society must protect unborn children from abortion. They want the society to make that decision. Yet this society doesn’t willingly accept responsibility for raising, feeding, clothing, educating, providing health care or providing jobs for all those unborn children; they put that responsibility all on the parent or parents.I would guess that each of us here knows people who have no business ever having children, whether for temperamental, psychiatric or economic reasons.Many more of us have children, and choose not to have more, or simply cannot afford more. Others want children, but want to finish the educational or career levels that would allow them to provide for them. Last time I heard the figures, which was some few years ago, it cost in excess of half a million dollars each to raise children to age 18.I suppose celebacy is the preferred option, except we’ve seen how well it works among priests who took a vow to be celebate. It’s even less effective for those who didn’t.Then there’s birth control; at best, it’s only 98% effective, which in a city the size of Wichita, would give us approximately 2000 unplanned pregnancies a year, at best. Then there are the people who are told by their churches that birth control is immoral, and the women who, for various medical or economic reasons must use less effective methods. And then there are the kids who think, as most kids do, that it won’t happen to them. And then there are the women and young girls who didn’t get to choose whether they had sex; they were raped or molested.These are the people who are being told that society has decided for them that they have to be responsible for the children they produce, and may get some token help, but for the most part are on their own.When the anti’s are willing to step up to the plate and offer to be responsible, personally and financially, for each and every one of those kids, maybe then we can talk about it. Until then, maybe they should start on finding loving and permanent homes for those tens of thousands of kids already born and currently stuck in the state foster-care system until they’re dumped with nothing at all on the street at age 18. After all, each of them is precious too!
Pro-life organizations will need a final unified strategy. They will need to join forces together, either in promiting more continued incremental abortion restrictions, or in an all-out final push for abolition.Personally, I favor abolition.
“Personally, I favor abolition.” Will never happen.
For what it’s worth, my personal belief is abortion is wrong; the “fetus” is a child. I am sure not beholden to the government to inform me when life starts as a human.
But I am also of a mind the woman choosing to have an abortion is judicable by no human. If, as I believe, there is a higher power, He/She/It is the only One who has that right.
Personally, I favor abolition.Posted by: parkay | June 20, 2007 at 06:22 PM
What is the practical meaning of your position if it can’t be enforced?
Given the primacy of the human sex drive, it’s more than likely that any abolition of abortion will be even less effective than was the prohibition of alcohol in the Volstead Act of 1919. The Volstead Act, btw, stated that “no person shall manufacture, sell, barter, transport, import, export, deliver, furnish or possess any intoxicating liquor except as authorized by this act.” Consumption was not illegal, however, and the act was enforced through the supply side only since the purchase of alchohol was legal. (In other words, if a law enforcement officer observed a financial transaction where money or goods were exchanged for alcohol, then the seller was arrested but the buyer was not.)
So. How will you enforce the abolition of abortion? I assume it would be a similar enforcement through the supply side? (ie, not illegal to receive an abortion procedure but instead illegal to perform one)
“”Personally, I favor abolition.”
That is so damn funny. The anti-choice crowd loves to compare themselves to the abolitionists of bleeding kansas.
And, as Pedant noted, you cant ever “abolish” abortion. You can make it difficult, dangerous and illegal, but it wont be stopped.
Personally? I favor abolition of churches, but I’m pretty sure that wont happen either.
Farm Gal,Unlike most of those here, I had an up-close look at pre-Roe v. Wade abortion in this town.Many years ago, I acquired a relative, a chiropractor, whose practice from 1949-1973 consisted almost entirely of providing D&C’s to women who wished to end their pregnancies. He was apparently good at what he did, and did an average of maybe 12-14 a day. He also had three colleagues here with similar practices.The real problem was that occasionally a patient would have complications, and fearing arrest (yes, it was a felony offense), refuse to seek emergency treatment until it was too late to save her. I do remember several phone calls where he was trying to convince a patient to go to the ER.I have no idea how many women in town died as a result of abortion, but given the numbers being done (remember, most of these were done before the pill became commonplace), it had to number somewhere in the hundreds.I was so relieved when abortion was legalized, and he was put out of business, and women could go to a real doctor with a real medical infrastructure to handle emergencies. I certainly don’t want to revisit those bad old days!
“I certainly don’t want to revisit those bad old days!”
True dat Jed!
Sad to say though, so many of the wingnuts here want to turn the clock back to the bad ol’ days on many issues, including this one.
Why I am bothering to get involved with this endless discussion, I really don’t know, I must have a hidden masochistic streak in me, but here’s my nickels worth:
—————————–”The anti’s here keep saying that we as a society must protect unborn children from abortion. They want the society to make that decision. Yet this society doesn’t willingly accept responsibility for raising, feeding, clothing, educating, providing health care or providing jobs for all those unborn children; they put that responsibility all on the parent or parents.”
With slight variation
“The anti’s here keep saying that we as a society must protect children from infanticide. They want the society to make that decision. Yet this society doesn’t willingly accept responsibility for raising, feeding, clothing, educating, providing health care or providing jobs for all those children; they put that responsibility all on the parent or parents.”
Make about as much sense, doesn;t it.——————————–My position is this:At some point, that bunch of cells or fetus or blasticyst becomes a human being and worthy of constitutional protection. My defition has little to do with “religion” and more to do with science and humanity. My definiton would be once it can be shown that that group of cells has1) DNA that can be shown to be human2) DNA that can be shown to be separate from either donor3)Vital organs that can be shown to be working or capable of working4) Brain function of a nature that we describe the abscence of it as death
Then that is indeed a person worthy of constitution protectin, regardless of whether or not it has passed through the birth canal.Up to that point, abortions may be elected as an adult without impunity. After that point, regardless of wether it is because of how the woman got pregnant, or wether or not she’s changed her mind, or whatever, the only reason that an aboriton may be approved by a panel of doctors is to save the life or major bodily function that will be permanently altered by continuing the pregnancy, or the “death” of the preborn child.
That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. Abortion will never be completely abolished, nor will it ever be completely condoned.
Well LJ, you best be building a whole bunch of women’s prisons to house those murdering women then.
Ruining an existing life to demand a woman carry her ‘responsibility’ will have tragic consequences in many ways.
Pedant and ksfarmgirl,The USofA abolished slavery through the Emancipation Proclamation and 14th Amendment, but slavery still exists in the USofA, in forms like human trafficking and child prostitution. Do you say we should legalize slavery again, or continue prosecuting it?I say prosecute.Since abortion is contract killing, abolition would require criminal prosecution of illegal abortionist quacks and all those who hire and abet them.Wrist slaps will not be enough in any abortion convictions.
How sad that you consider pregnancy and childbirth a forced issue, forced upon women for acts that a man gets off scott free on (with regards to their body).
With slavery, you are insisting that someone has no free will on their own. You propose to send women into a slavery.
(Below)Par,Your problem is that you think that if you can just convince a simple majority that something ought to be illegal, you’ll have an effective law. Doesn’t work that way! Notice how effective all those other “moral” crusades have been, like prohibition, and the war on drugs?It may take a simple majority to make a law, but it takes a huge majority to make it effective- something on the order of 85-95% of the total population. And whenever you pass an ineffective law, the only result is less respect for rule of law. We really don’t need any more of that. You, and your kind are more responsible for the breakdown of law and order than all the criminals in the country could hope to be!