Some top Wichita business leaders are coming out against a casino in Sedgwick County. In the past week, Cessna Aircraft chairman emeritus Russ Meyer, Intrust Bank president Charlie Chandler IV and developer Jack DeBoer have told The Eagle editorial board that they strongly oppose a casino. All three think that a casino would be bad for the local economy, and they are concerned about social costs. Chandler likened a casino to a cancer that the state is trying to force on our community.
So why do opinion polls show that the public overwhelmingly wants a local casino? DeBoer thinks residents have been apathetic and “don’t understand what this is about.”
Would it be better if the casino was next door in Sumner County? All three said yes, though they had doubts a casino would ever be built there.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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67 Comments
Some top business people aren’t being asked for their opinion.
This is why votes mean something. It’s a choice by every citizen in Sedgwick County registered.
Most will think if a Casino is coming why shouldn’t it be here!
Why should Wichita and Sedgwick County citizens have to waste gas driving out to neighboring counties and gamble.
Was it better the County denied this process and former state legislators wanted to write Sedgwick County out of casino legislation?
Where are social costs when people have a choice. Don’t go in the downtown casino.
This a business opportunity before the Casino makes a nickel of money from the gambling tables, betting or slots.
The Canadians want to purchase a lot of City land. $300 Million spent downtown will alter the landscape.
City will have funds to better create or support other necessary projects.
Sedgwick County will only absorb the social costs with Casino’s within driving distance.
Other counties have ratified their Casino choices. Make Wichita look foolish in Topeka again!
Wyandotte County is our “enemy”. Olathe is no friend of Wichita.
Politicians from those areas promoting projects in Topeka are welcomed. Citizens there are overwhelmingly passing projects to benefit those communities.
This is Wichita with half done projects or unrealized potential. Weak image in Topeka exists.
Some think we can barely support a 15,000 seat arena. Smaller than regional arena’s doesn’t give the County credit anywhere else.
Construct a facility where events pass on by to 18,000 seat arena’s.
Tulsa looks at Wichita funny! What’s wrong with us here.
They have college football, two pretty good college basketball and baseball teams.
Oral Roberts pummels WSU often in baseball and they really enjoy it.
Oral Roberts basketball team beat KU in Lawrence.
WSU can’t play KU.
Tulsa constructed a new arena bigger than ours. They have to fight for events with Oklahoma City.
We only have the one arena being constructed in the whole state.
Olathe is planning to construct an arena if we fail to improve ours.
They are trying to make the legislation happen in Topeka right now.
Russ Meyer isn’t fixing everything wrong with Wichita.
Chandler should stay inside Intrust and pray account holders don’t siphon those funds quickly by PAYING MORE FOR GAS, driving miles to gamble outside of the County.
DeBoer, people are apathetic with WaterWalk. Boathouse supporters won’t listen to what he’s saying.
People don’t understand the slowness of his project.
Maybe he fears the Casino downtown could be constructed faster.
Maybe the WaterWalk condo’s won’t sell or he has to increase sound proofing with a Casino downtown, open for 24 hours.
Cars and people walking around could get noisy late at night and into the wee hours.
I alway wondered what WaterWalk hours would be and if the area shut down.
24 hour facility next to WaterWalk could change their business model.
IS Russ Meyer still running Cessna?? He was running Cessna 30 plus years ago when I lived there! How old is he now? 100?
Phillip; Your opinion polls showing the public “overwhelmingly wants casinos” in Sedgwick County must have been taken about midnight in the bars down on South Broadway. Like the arena, I don’t hear people I talk to saying they want gambling casinos in Sedgwick County.
Profits will be rushed out of Wichita at midnight on a fast train to New York or Las Vegas or wherever casino owners happen to be waiting.
Most people are smart enough to know that casinos no matter how glitzy will be paid for by THEMSELVES: the gamblers, local businesses that lose business to casinos and taxpayers at large who must, in the end, pay for humongous social costs.
Three friends of mine, one in Panama Beach, Florida, one in Denver and one in northern Kansas have all relayed horror stories of the downside of gambling in their areas. Once approved, they speak of proliferation of gambling “opportunities” all around.
In Florida, gambling ships lie off shore to entice gamblers. In Colorado, gambling opportunities are florishing along tourist routes to reach “easy marks.” In northern Kansas, near Indian casinos, former business buildings are boarded up, and rising divorces and bankruptcies are the observable result of gambling.
Where are Wichita supporters who promote family values now? Is this the direction Wichita wants to be traveling? I don’t think so.
Those who want the Casino and those who actually vote are two different numbers.
We’ll see, won’t we?
Well, Wichita, your corporate masters have spoken. Your ayatollahs have spoken.
Whatever will you do? It remains to be seen how well Wichita voters serve their masters.
JW – from what I see the poll numbers are correct – Sedgwick County residents are 2-1 in favor of the Casino. HOWEVER – Republican, 100% correct. We shall see.
As I have said; I have seen stranger results in an election.
Support is soft; all the opponents have to do is create doubt. Also, apathy is high and apathy is an enemy of the casino vote.
Yesterday Wyandotte County voted 80% in favor of their casino.
Ford County (Dodge City) just approved theirs as well at 64% approval.
I would be very surprised if Sedgwick County doesn’t vote it in. But the JWinks are out in full force to regulate behavior. Meaning no Casino in the County.
Ummm! It will be in Sumner if not here. There are Casinos just across the border is Oklahoma and they are building more and more of them.
Who ever is gambling in the Wichita are already going to casinos.
Hurt families? Yeah right! I notice the people who are against it, noticeably Pastors, Small entertainment venue owners, Bank President?
Because they want people spending their disposable income at church, not the slots. Or they don’t want the competition that a Casino would bring.
To be honest. Most people who are against it are either for selfish anti-competition reasons, morality Bible thumping reasons and the later is the hate Wichita crowd like JWink.
“To be honest. Most people who are against it are either for selfish anti-competition reasons, morality Bible thumping reasons and the later is the hate Wichita crowd like JWink.
Posted by: Joe Williams | June 27, 2007 at 09:34 AM ”
Just keep wishing that were so . . .
I see in this list many twisted truths and some outright negative comments directed toward people who are doing good every day of their lives.Russ Meyer is a Great Man!Gambling is evil and makes a city sick with all kinds of misery and crime.Oral Roberts University is God based and should have better teams. However, the comment here does not make sense. KU has good teams too. Writing sensible comments that can be debated would be nice for us readers. Thank you if you read this far.
Russ Meyers is a great man.
I don’t really condone people for being against a Casino. Me? I will never step in one.
But to deny the fact that gambling already exist in our community and the thought of having a casino in our county will so drastically change, for the negative, our community is also wrong.
If gambling didn’t exist at all and then we were voting to introduce it is one thing. But that isn’t the case. And the people who are fighting to not have a casino in Sedgwick County (most) not saying all, but have an alternate motive that is more than just being against a Casino because they believe it will be bad for our economy.
Read Commentary:http://www.kansas.com/205/story/107319.html
Joe! You made some good arguements but then weakened your case by falsely claiming “hate Wichita”. SUBSTANTIATE THAT!
I am NOT one on the anti-casino group; I tend to favor it. However, i DO think the vote will be close; for a number of reasons.
My problem with a downtown / riverfront casino is that it will ruin the quiet park like atmosphere and diminish it as a place for family entertainment.Like a few others, I think it should from the start be a destination Casino, resort and convention and business center in order to attract more visitors from throughout the region.
Here is a letter I sent to the editors at the Eagle:
Three cardinal rules in real estate, all of them location – applies to vacationers / convention centers / casinos also.As a destination resort / casino / Business Center ideally it should have it’s own golf course, quality on site entertainment and dining facilities.If a casino / resort comes to Wichita it should be on the NW corner of 54 and 135th Street – The developers should buy or lease Auburn Hills Golf course. It’s one of the sites most accessible to visitors. Agreements can be worked out to allow citizens to play inexpensively (current prices?) with some times set aside for them during prime golf times. The deal should benefit the county and community.They want to keep the customers there instead of traipsing around town, Except during the daytime when they (the visitors) can go to the family oriented new downtown, riverfront, boutique retail shops (some indoors in an old converted building) , restaurants — that the casino developers help the city design, build and run. Think small versions of Navy Pier or Millennium Park (both owned by the city). in Chicago, ours designed by Walt Disney perhaps. Free riverfront concerts, indoor boutique shop vendors, lawyers, business offices. Reasons for a visitor to stroll from the riverfront (ride a tram) to old town and the arena, accessible to the same quality entertainment as at the resort for the benefit of the community at large.Pheasant Run and Lincolnshire resorts / business centers north and northwest of Chicago come to mind for examples of amenities etc …. Daytime diversions might use Tan Tar A and Lodge of the Four Seasons as somewhat of a model,Lots of opportunities for local businesses across the board to benefit from those locations theater companies to provide entertainment etc …… It should have a small convention center, with larger conventions coming into downtown for the arena that they bought the naming rights to?…. excellent opportunity for a developer to build the first eco-green resort / casino ? that alone would be worth tons of free publicity? Nothing but hybrids in the vehicle fleet etc ……Too good of an opportunity to dismiss?The developer should insist on one point of contact on the council(s) to avoid a Bowling tourney fiasco.
me again:
If the casino is approved for Sedgwick County, all options should still be on the table for a Wichita location. Smarter business people than I can find ways to make it financially viable for the community, smarter creative and technical people than I know how to design that community friendly large scale business venture.
“Make no small plans” (Daniel Burnham – architect of Chicago’s Lake front and Grant Park developments.
“Go big or stay home”, phrase used in poker and nuclear warfare.
“Build it and they will come” Kevin Costner –
Lot of truth to those!!
And why would I care if the Intrust Bank president does not want a casino here? I quit using his bank years ago because their service fees were outrageous and their customer service sucked.
The next time someone on the City Council or the County Commission complains about Cowtown needing funds, we’ll just point to the Arena and Casino projects.
Both will be money pits.
Kev,
What? Casino’s prefer locations near hotels. Where did that Auburn Golf course idea come from? That’s not reasonable.
Jwink,
I do fear the slippery slope with slot machines. Those can’t leap from a casino or dog track, to bars with slots. At the airport. In book stores.
We have to limit slot machines in this County, forever.
Ben,
Why the fence sitting? Say exactly your fears of a casino? Leave out the Century II feelings.
Joe,
What’s the harm walking into a casino, the key thing is don’t gamble. Throw beer money at a table. Shifting economics, not draining the wallet.
Mrage – already done. Pat attention.
“Leave out the Cenruty II feelings.”?????????
Ya gotta be kidding! I realize that you hate the arts and theater but you do not represent everyone.
“Whats wrong with just 15,000 seats? Leave out your basketball feelings.”
Ben,
I hate the arts?
Have I promoted destroying Century II?
SMG is new management. Not my fault.
Mayor Brewer said publicly, Century II won’t be sold.
Your fence sitting about the Casino is Century II uncertainity.
You prefer the Ruffin/Trump plan, okay.
I know you want the Casino in this county, right?
You hate the arena completely regardless amount of seats. My desire to improve it, shouldn’t mean anything to you.
Mrage – it is largely a matter of trust. Do I trust epresentations made to me by government officials? NO. I have learned better from experience.
Did I say I prefer the Ruffin/Trump plan? Maybe I prefer the Knight plan. Maybe I prefer Britt Brown. That is part of my ‘fence-sitting’ at this point.
“Have I promoted destroying Century II?” You seem to be for the Canada group – they would take C-II. You have advocated the City selling a lot of things; in the past you advocated using the money realized in those sales for YOUR project. That would wipe out the arts.
As you said, I should set aside represenattions (pdfs) made to me because they can be changed at a whim. How do I know the same thing wouldn’t happen to Century II?
“I know you want the Casino in this county, right?” I’m not sure. That is also part of my ‘fence-sitting.’
It is called “doing due deligence”. If you are not familiar with that term ask your attorney or accountant about it.
“Russ Meyer isn’t fixing everything wrong with Wichita.”
Perhaps not EVERYTHING but he has sure as hell done a lot more than most!
“Russ Meyers is a great man.
I don’t really condone people for being against a Casino.”
Why not condone it; is it not his right?
Or did you mean you don’t CONDEMN it?
Ben,
I said nothing bad about Russ Meyer. It takes a lot of people to fix problems in Wichita’s image.
Two Presidents and Yeltsin came here yet Topeka isn’t impressed what we’re doing.
His denial of this project is a personal opinion. Other people have just as valid opinions wanting the Casino.
No matter what the Canadians want, the City doesn’t have to sell Century II.
The building is too much an icon downtown, as a Convention Center.
City has land by the river, The Library building and Hyatt to sell. Estimated $90 Million dollars in those things.
Building on corner of Douglas and Main is involved.
The City wants development of that building, because its rotting right now and useless for the most part.
Your questions whether Arts and Theather can exist next to their Casino are valid.
City is taking over arena parking issues, they aren’t spending a nickel increasing size or more seats in the arena.
Whatever the City spends in the arena future years, won’t kill the Arts.
Arts had concerns about future dates and the City took care of that problem. SMG being hired to manage Century II, shows its not going to be sold.
MRage
“If a casino / resort comes to Wichita it should be on the NW corner of 54 and 135th Street – The developers should buy or lease Auburn Hills Golf course.”
The nw corner of 135th w and 54 is adjacent to the golf course. The idea is to build a resort / hotel casino / conference / business center at that location. A golf course makes it (casino / resort / conference center) more viable as a destination resort casino. It will be value added to the casino hotel etc …. I believe it makes it more viable as a destination casino / resort / conference center. Make it the premier business / resort / casino center in the midwest. Will make it considerably more desirable a location than anything being offerred in Tulsa, OK City, Kansas City.
It is a reasonable alternative to downtown. It is more accessible than a downtown location. Downtown can remain a family friendly venue. As I said before I think if you put a casino downtown it will eventually turn downtown into a Fremont Street with a lot of gaudy glitz. A developer who really believes in the community will be willing to make some commitment to help developing downtown with more family friendly related activities, some upscale retail boutique type shopping, an area for strolling, shopping from the riverfront to the new arena. Connectted to the airport and casino by a monorail or like system. If appropriate build a stop at Town West.
The idea for downtown is to do similar things that other cities (Chicago for example) have done to draw people downtown like Millenium Park and Navy Pier with gardens, free concert venue, a variety of retail, commercial and family entertainment venue. Things that the entire community can partake of without having to deal with the casino atmosphere.
The casino will be the only one in the area for a long time, it has to offer as many on site amenities as possible golf, hotel, conference center to attract not just gamblers but a comfortable place for families to vacation. Idealy I would think a casino would want to own it’s own hotel / resort.
It is more than reasonable — it’s a better idea. The community can avail itself of the upscale resort facilities / amenities as well as have mostly family oriented opportunities downtown. Some casino patrons might rather stay downtown, overflow from the resort can lodge there or the hotels can convert to condos / apartments to attract more residents downtown that would serve to bolster the family centered downtown.
It requires big thinking and planning —
…. and a commitment to serve the entire community, not just downtown business interests and visitors.
Ken,
I apologize for mistaking you with Kev.
Find a hotel group willing to locate out there.
Auburn is a public golf course. So is Sim Park, downtown. People staying in downtown hotels don’t have to go very far to play golf.
Plus the River to walk by.
The Canadians casino idea sits behind Century II, so it won’t cause sprawl or glitz that will be overbearing downtown. At night, the lights will bright along the River.
They want to construct another hotel in that area. That will rise and look different behind Century II.
When people mention monorails, how and where to do that. Along Kellogg from downtown to the Airport? Who is monorail developer willing? Is that tax financed rail system? Very costly.
Some developer could think of condo hotel near Auburn Golf course for executives and traveling families to stay in.
But it won’t have casino gambling.
We shouldn’t leak slots outside of the one Casino in this County and at the dog track.
Plenty of older buildings downtown available could be condo’s no need to convert more hotel rooms into condo’s.
That old Holiday Inn is a condo now. If aggressive developers wanted more hotels downtown, the Broadview and old Holiday Inn could be torn down and replaced with better hotels.
We need much quality hotel space downtown more than any other locations. Hotels are near the airport along Kellogg, but they aren’t the best.
A Hyatt type hotel won’t locate out there. Phil Ruffin wouldn’t put Marriot Hotel out there.
Anyone else bothered by the concept of a State Sponsored Casino?
“City is taking over arena parking issues, they aren’t spending a nickel increasing size or more seats in the arena.
Whatever the City spends in the arena future years, won’t kill the Arts.”
Money is limited Mrage. If the City spends my tax dollars in support of your Arena that leaves less to go elsewhere such as the arts. Ask your accountant about that.
We lost the $100 million bowling tournament largely because of the talk about selling C-II. You have suggested the same; you only backed off when cornered on it. And then you tell me I should ignore promises made in the past; why should I now believe promises made about C-II?
The City could sell that golf course that Ken mentions. Why not? I know I would prefer that to selling out the arts.
Ken – anothr idea, building on existing proposals. Park City or Britt Brown. Build the hotel and golf course up there adjacent to the resort. Another option: Turnpike location south of Wichita, do the same – casino, hotel, golf, and shuttles to downtown.
While Kellogg is a major commuter route we use daily the Turnpike is an Interstate route.
Of course, the WDDC folks will hate any of these alternatives.
Republican – yes, I find it a bit troubling. I wish I knew more about precisely how it would be structured.
Ben,
I think the City golf community would be outraged selling Auburn Hills to a developer wanting to put a hotel out there.
A friend lives in California now and loves coming back here to play on City golf courses because cost of green fees.
A municipal grand golf course is preferable to club ownership. Anyone can play and not have to join the country club.
I wish you would blame the Bowling Congress for pulling out. Its their choice.
Repulican, your fears of state owned casino don’t mean anything.
Fear bad business before you fear bad government. Casino’s done the “Vegas” way, who knows. They had decades of mobs running casino’s and still have problems with that kind of influence.
If State owned casino’s can control some of grifting and crimes involved with gambling, I’m for it.
How its structured to benefit the state financially can be tweaked.
Topeka created the process to pay for schools in future budgets. To satisfy the school funding Court orders.
“I think the City golf community would be outraged selling Auburn Hills to a developer wanting to put a hotel out there.”
But we don’t care about the arts or reading communities!
More ‘bread and circuses’!
Mrage,
These are my fears. The government has no business of being in business.
They should be doing government things, not misadventures of some speculative money raising Casino where three fourths of the profits will never see the light of day in Kansas.
MRage
I understand all that you say, and agree with much of it — but it sounds like we have 2 different views goals and visions, but share the same desire to bring more visitors to Wichita, improve our image, grow the economy etc ….. I’ve given this more than casual thought and have ideas (3 pages of single spaced notes) to answer your concerns and differences in our approaches.Not far fetched as an example:When I said monorail I meant it as a generic term for an elevated transportation system that acts as a shuttle between the airport, downtown and the West location. Make it eco friendly by using solar, wind power —- That is doable, (yes cost some) to minimize impact to neighborhoods etc, using existing right of ways — right down the middle of Kellogg. It is part of the investment in the growth of the city, and cooperative support between government and business.Build the hotel / casino / resort business center as the first totally eco friendly / energy independent facility. That alone will generate more interest and visitors. The golf course can be more profitable / beneficial to the county if some one else runs it and more accessible to the guests.
Seems one of the big differences we have is the riverfront and how it’s used. As I understand it there is residential aspect of the waterwalk development south of CII. I think (I may be the only one) that the riverfront be retained in as much a park like setting as possible with perhaps a small pavillion for outdoor concerts, an outdoor ice rink w / an adjacent restaurant, a good size park to play in and stroll through some unique gardens.
I believe my idea is more family friendly and community friendly. It provides more opportunities / reasons to visit Wichita.
Either way, it is a long term investment in and by the community wether it be 500 million or a billion. Neither idea will recoup costs overnight both can be profitable, who ever makes the investment is in for the long haul –
ken – your idea is intriguing. However, I still lean toward the Interstate.
Question on the monorail: how to handle the overpasses (Ridge, 235)? Up and over? Unfortunately they didn’t build enough ‘center’ to do it under the overpasses.
“My problem with a downtown / riverfront casino is that it will ruin the quiet park like atmosphere and diminish it as a place for family entertainment.”
Yes. It might ruin the atmosphere that the homeless, junkies and winos have come to enjoy!
Actually kev, with the improved pathways and lightin we are getting a lot of citizens ontl theriverfront. that is why we are pushing for improvements along our river south of Kellogg to Pawnee (east side).
Forget about placing the casino around other business. The Casino owners do not want people doing anything except spending money in their own establishment.They will place the casino far away from any other entertainment, restaurant, or business option.
Forget about placing it around hotels. The majority of gamblers will be daytripers who will have no need of an overnight stay.
Wichita – You will not see a dime of this so called revenue boost.
Ben, I really don’t know why you cary on these one-sided dialogs with Mrage.
How can someone who hasn’t learned the difference between the parallel and posessive forms, or the difference between “your” and “you’re” be expected to engage in any rational discussion?
But he expects us to take his ideas seriously, even though he hasn’t learned the grammar and usage expected of fourth grade children.
Mrage’s excuse is that there is no spell checker on this blog. But a spell checker can’t fix what Mrage doesn’t know.
“n”Go back in time and look at yourself on this day. You used to make nonsense but it was about topics that didn’t involve me.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2006/12/could_private_s.html
Your fake email was n@n.com or noone, something else we0000347 something.
When email address were posted, I’ve always had a real one.
Consider this statement to you…
“n”?
I would be very happy to answer your question. But I doubt that n@n.n is a valid email address. Do you have any other issues or nics you would like to share with the group? You seem to be fairly singular in your interests here. Care to explain?
Posted by: J R | February 02, 2007 at 03:07 PM—–
That’s exactly what your mind is commanding you to do…singularly making statements to me, regardless of the topic being discussed.
Your a nut.
Not irritating but pitiful. This is blog about topics and you have reduced yourself to nagging about spelling.
The pitiful thing, Mrage, is that you think your entire problem is your spelling.
That in itself tell us a lot about your thought processes.
Your spelling problems are the smallest of all your problems.
Don’t you understand the difference between poor spelling and not knowing how to use language? Didn’t you ever learn that?
The elevated monorail may be a little costly to be practical with out having an idea how many might use it. A consideration for afterwards, 54 can probably handle the increased traffic and fixin the 235 intersection is in the works. In lieu of monorail perhaps a resort trolley to downtown that goes by the zoo etc ….
John thats why I think my idea (with fine tuning and polish) is better for all, is more marketable, well attract more people to the resort and more people from the community back downtown, and deserves an airing .. A resort out west can provide opportunities for a lot more people and is more family friendly …
Ben
The hotel / resort complex would be adjacent to the golf course, and designed so errant golf balls won’t be an issue. I’ve only played there once (a 25 hdc,) with my son and it is a very challenging course even for the 2 handcaps, my son tells me (he’s about a 5) a lot of people, mostly seniors don’t play it because it is too difficult. Some of that can be redesigned away (by Watson, Colbert, or Woody Austin — Kansans) I believe the golf community will love the opportunity to play on a course that has country club style amenities. It is difficult a course to be attractive for the KS golf association to hold state tourneys there, Regional open qualifiers, lots of golf related possibilities, as well as for local restuarants Scotch and Sirloin (or better) does the restaurant, a Buster Keaton or Martina McBride club or showroom, local groups provide talent for productions. Downtown / riverfront complements and works the water works, becomes a family friendly place where the entire community feels welcome all the time with. Think — it’s the place that groups celebrating specific holidays can have there festival down town. Including custom car shows, Polish (and other ethnic groups festivals, the Tom Watson golf academy at the golf course comes out every so often to give lessons / demos —
ken – well thought out ideas, even though I still lean to I-35 or I-135 corridor. One BIG thing for yours, however – AIRPORT. You would be right there.
And yes, trollies/buses could connect to downtown/oldtown, zoo, etc.
Ken – looking at mapquest. About 17 miles from downtown Wichita to the Mulvane exit off the Turnpike. That puts you in Sumner County. If the vote fails in Sedgwick County then it would go to Sumner. Might that location do the same thing your idea does?
Ben,
As someone who has driven that stretch many times… It takes about 30 min to get there from downtown (including traffic).
Ive made it in 15 in a pinch though…
About the same amount of time out to the Coliseum…
Tony – or, from Butler County or Goddard, less time than it takes to get downtown.
ahhh… i would say the same amount… remember, i have to stop at those dam Toll Booths.
but really just getting on and off …
Ken,
Design away difficult stretches of Auburn Hills golf course, why?
Technology is the equalizer.
Golf “legends” would like to put their name a course that’s less of a test?
In this age of Tiger, courses have to defend themselves, par has merit. The best golfers barely shoot par, that course is great.
Your idea for a resort hotel, is fine. I don’t know what hotel group would be interested.
Are you counting on it’s a gambling resort?
Golf courses are seasonal too. Some slow months may happen, visitors staying there.
It’s not winter chalet, that has skiing during the cold months.
Your counting on visitors from out of town? More than local people spending a day/night or weekends.
Changing a municipal course to country club access I don’t support. City golf probably won’t support it. They value having a course where anyone can play.
Rolling Hills is up the street. Reflection Ridge is not too far away on 21st.
Those are west side country clubs, why does it need another?
Downtown is the site for two casino developers that have made themselves known. Best hotel in the whole County, is the Hyatt.
Better hotels will gravitate near it.
MRage
I think you misunderstand my ideas about a resort / hotel / Buiness center AND casino at a west location.
The golf course would be country club / resort quality course available to the community. As would all the amenities of the facility.
Let me see if I can summarize the idea
A casino attached to a resort (with golf course etc..) and business center will draw more people and is more marketable than just a hotel next to a casino.
If we are in competition with KC, Tulsa, and OKC for visitors (the argument for the new arena), we need to do things better and different. None of those cities that I know of have a casino with a full amenity resort and business center. (Think Tan-Tar-A or Lodge of the four seasons with a casino.)
It would be easier to market to those agencies / clubs / groups that currently hold meetings, conventions and conferences at those cities as well as other cities in the region (Omaha, Dallas, etc … ) as well as those that meet in the Ozarks (Tan Tar A etc..) ..
The golf course / resort can be marketed to golf groups — i.e the Kansas Golf Association contracts to hold some of thier state wide amatuer tourneys as well as open qualifiers etc ….. NFP’s can hold tourneys there as well —- a sales marketing department would find it an easier sell than just a casino next to or near a hotel. If you think more hotels will be built to compliment a downtown hotel and casino then it would follow that they would be moe willing to compliment a resort that is bringing more people to the area …
The downtown developers may only be considering downtown because it was the only idea presented to them, they already have business interests downtown or they never considered the idea …..
It is worth considering. It may cost more (neither a downtown plan or a west side plan will cost 250 million — either will end up being closer to 500 + million) Costs can be recouped just as quickly when you draw more people to the area with more amenities.
A savvy developer (if it were shown to be financially worthwhile) would make a deal for the golf course that would be difficult for the county to turn down — it can develop a win win for the community as well as the resort / casino.
The resort / casino will be open to the public — and will be an added value resource to both.
A better reason to come to Wichita for businesses and vacationers.
kev – the WDDC crowd will only consider a downtoen location. The reason, as you speculate above, “they already have business interests downtown” That is why you will see their representatives ‘diss’ Park City and Sumner County so much.
While I find your proposal intriguing I don’t think it would fly. Too much of the surrounding area is residential; I don’t know that they would go for such a project. That is part of why I tend toward the north or south options.
I will, however, ask someone else to look at your proposal. That person has friends who have interests along west Kellogg.
Hey Kev…
A western location is an interesting one.
Shortly after the decision was made to put a casino in the Wichita Area, i asked a friend who owns lots of land in Western Sedgwick county about the idea. He was favorable but had said the political decision had already been made to have it downtown.But we did banter back and forth on an interesting idea about placing it from 119th st to 135th, from Kellogg to Pawnee. That area has the creek flowing through it, would make for a nice nature area on the grounds. It would be large enough for a golf course, all kinds of other amenities, etc…
I don’t think your plan for Auburn Hills would work though… Too much already built up and too many people with money there with “traditional christian values” who would oppose it in “their backyards”..
Oh and it would be on the “rail trail” there at that location so people could ride their bikes to the casino!
Chandler: Casino may force move
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2007/07/02/story1.html
Synopsis:
Charlie Chandler says he will move Intrust out of Downtown if a Casino is built downtown.
Tony, I have a feeling this will be the death knell for the Sedgwick County casino. Although support for a casino has been broad (2-1) it is shallow. I don’t know anyone who is passionately pro-casino; most are luke-warm. If enough people start having doubts and just stay home the casino is in trouble. The anti-casino zealots will ALL come out and vote.
It will be hard for the WDDC crowd to label people like Russ Meyer, Charlie Chandler, and Jack DeBoer as Wichita-haters or kooks. They will have to come up with a new strategy.
Ken,
There you go..two westsiders Ben and Tony don’t think its viable.
I have no idea of “not in my backyard” residential folks.
I was more concerned you desire KS Golf tournaments at Auburn Hills and needing it to be dumbed down. Golf courses should be tough tests because of technology.
Country club access to that course would stink!
If the City ever runs out of money to care for Auburn Hills properly, then they would be ashamed selling it to Country Club developers.
City could refuse to sell the golf course.
Downtown is the location for casino choices.
A west side resort, all that you dream could happen without a casino! Then it would be a seasonal destination at best.
A more family destination defined. Families and casino’s don’t go together for the most part.
Tony,
I’m not joining the bizjournal to read Chandler’s rant.
If he was serious, the Eagle would report it. What about Intrust employees, some don’t like driving far east side to jobs. Where would the bank go? Out there likely.
Ben,
Who is the richest of them all, Ruffin. Who has their fingers in the City pockets, Canadians. They could be richer than those “named” detractors.
Bob Knight claims all those guys are his friends, so he wants those doubters voices loud as possible.
Park City isn’t Wichita and Sumner County hasn’t picked a casino developer.
Some think Jack Deboer is a kook.
When this story was posted elsewhere on the Eagle site, those who commented discounted those guys and their opinions.People want to self determine their fate. Not to be told what’s best for them.
You have used KAKE’s polls before, the vote still wins.
Russ Meyer could harass the Canadians to be charitable in this area.
Chandler is afraid of accounts being drained. People gamble instead of investing in Intrust CD’s.
DeBoer, finish Waterwalk and worry about that.
Lights and traffic noise from a 24 hour casino next to WaterWalk condo’s is a problem he never imagined.
Those people commenting used WaterWalk against Deboer.
“Families and casino’s don’t go together for the most part.”
Well, Mrage, since Century II has a lot of our family-oriented activities doesn’t that then argue against that location for a casino?
” A west side resort, all that you dream could happen without a casino! Then it would be a seasonal destination at best.”
As a seasonal resort it clearly would not be viable. However, as a casino ???
So the WDDC’s new label is “rant” applied to a reasoned Wichita business man like Chandler!
“Who is the richest of them all, Ruffin. Who has their fingers in the City pockets, Canadians. They could be richer than those “named” detractors.”
That is why they might not be trusted. The Canadiens have no roots in Wichita; Chandler and Meyers do. Ruffin, although a successful businessman does not have the civic profile these guys do.
By the way, I agree with you about Deboer and WaterWalk.
“Downtown is the location for casino choices.” According to WDDC. Not according to a lot of other people.
Ben,
Hotel/Casino’s in the same building, consider that.
Hotels welcome families, but kids are steered away from the casino’s.
Canadians are constructing a casino next to Century II. Not inside the Convention center.
Isn’t Arts concerned about people in the street that could mingle with those going to Arts and Theater shows.
Like people in the streets near a casino are scum of the earth fears.
It’s an alien thought people walking around downtown, have different places to go.
Decent people in the street and casino will have much security around the area, in the evening.
People with a variety of interests could walk by each other.
Century II Arts and theater can exist next to a casino.
Chandler is ranting if he demands Intrust pull out from downtown.
His displeasure about a casino doesn’t require that boast.
I don’t know about “other people”. Park City folks will vote yes, thinking they can still win a casino out there.
Sumner County people sneak in here and make statements damning the casino in Sedgwick County.
The more they can rant in columns, letters to editors, they will.
Other people may live in Sumner County remember that.
“Chandler is ranting … ”
No, successful businessman and loyal Wichitan Chandler is expressing concernes about the City into which he has invested heavily.
YOU, Mrage, are ranting.
As I have noted, I am still undecided about my vote. I intend to do ‘due diligence.’ I will also make a prediction on the outcome. A week ago I would have predicted passage. Now i am not so sure.
I will look at who comes out on each side as well. Do I respect their business sense? for example. Do I trust them?
The Canadien proposal includes Century II in their casino. Not just next door.
Business Journal Poll:
60% Yes in casino, yes on slots3% Yes on casino, no on slots6% No on casino, yes on slots30% No on casino, no on slots
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/poll/index.html?poll_id=3675&hbx=e_du
Who flees just because new neighbors move in? A different kind of people never seen before.
Chandler is acting in a rant, if that comes to pass. Intrust moving out of spite doesn’t make sense.
That would be a poor decesion unless he’s just ramping up the relocation that was going to happen.
Some business has moved to the far east side from downtown.
Then he’s being disingenuous about moving. Moving because the vote doesn’t go his way is a boast.
Believe your elected officials! That’s hard, but this time you must.
Mayor Brewer said, Century II won’t be sold and the City hired SMG as new management.
What Canadians want, the City has other expensive property to sell behind Century II.
The Library Building and the Hyatt. Hyatt’s parking garage. Library parking lots have value.
Century II is too much an icon as our Convention Center.
I’m guessing the poll for yes will stay around 65%. Should be higher.
Depends on age of voters. Young people more likely to vote yes.
The club and bar set. The party crowd will vote yes.
Maybe those people don’t vote for the politicians. We get more people voting, even though its only two questions about gambling on the ballot. Less complicated voting choices helps some people to vote.
“Believe your elected officials! That’s hard, but this time you must.” YOU TOLD ME NOT TO BELIEVE THEM! MAKE UP YOUR MIND!
Don’t you remember telling me to “put the pdfs down” because they can change them? Then why should I believe them now?
“That would be a poor decesion” CHANDLER IS A PROVEN AND SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS LEADER. YOU ARE NOT.
“The club and bar set. The party crowd will vote yes.” PERHAPS. BUT THEY DON’T VOTE.
“Chandler is acting in a rant” NO, YOU ARE THE RANT.
As I have said, this will be an interesting election. I am not placing my bets on the outcome just yet.
Ben,
Didn’t I say believe your City officials about Century II.
County officials are constructing the arena. Put the arena pdf’s down!
Chandler makes a choice, that’s his singular view. Every voter saying yes can disagree with that great business man.
I have aspirations different than his. I’m not the fourth generation of a business owner either. I’m not yet…
His accomplishments won’t be shamed if he’s on the wrong side of this vote.
I’m sure Intrust had relocation ideas before and won’t move out of spite.
If you worked at Intrust downtown, would you like to drive far east side for the job, Greenwich road let’s say?
Some people want to cut down on their commute. Some people hate sprawl.
I drank and partied in my twenties nightly, still voted. Why won’t kids today?
18 year olds registered have their chance to vote yes for a Casino, to make sure it’s here when they turn 21.
It probably won’t open until 18 year olds turn 21 or 22. We have four years before a Casino opens downtown?
Ruffin’s Gilley’s Bar with slots could be open by January, somebody said.
Freedom to choose, interest in gambling, why not do it here, its something we’ve never had before.
People will consider those thoughts. The yes should be 70% or a little more when the votes are tallied.
“Didn’t I say believe your City officials about Century II.
County officials are constructing the arena. Put the arena pdf’s down!”
SO COUNTY OFFICIALS ARE LIARS BUT I CAN TRUST THE CITY ONES? AND NO, I WILL NOT DISCARD THE EVIDENCE.
“Why won’t kids today?” I DON’T KNOW. BUT THAT IS WHAT THE STATISTICS SHOW.
” The yes should be 70% or a little more when the votes are tallied.” NOPE. RIGHT NOW MY GUESS IS 60-40 YES; DEFINITELY NOT 70-30. ON THAT I WOULD BE WILLING TO PLACE A BENJAMIN.
“Ruffin’s Gilley’s Bar with slots could be open by January, somebody said.” I WONDER IF HE WILL HAVE A MECHANICAL BULL? I RODE THE ‘REAL’ ONE IN PASADENA TEXAS.
“If you worked at Intrust downtown, would you like to drive far east side for the job, Greenwich road let’s say?” DEPENDS ON WHERE I LIVED. WHO KNOWS, HE COULD TAKE INTRUST WEST. IF IT IS ON KELLOGG IT WOULD BE EASY. ACTUALLY, I MIGHT LIKE THAT EVEN THOUGH I DON’T WORK THERE.
“Chandler makes a choice, that’s his singular view. Every voter saying yes can disagree with that great business man.” TRUE. BUT HE IS VERY WIDELY RESPECTED; HIS OPINION (ALONG WITH MEYERS AND OTHERS) CARRIES A LOT OF WEIGHT.
The dynamic of this election is becoming intriguing. On the ‘yes’ side we have WDDC and the casino operators. We also have a huge advantage with people LIKE ME who tend to favor ‘to each his own’. On the ‘no’ side we seem to have two very different groups. The ‘far right’ headed by Kahrs and the preachers and now a bunch of businessmen. The interesting thing is that the ‘Kahrs group’ will tend to vote ‘religiously’ (pun intended). So, they have weight beyond their numbers.
What might happen, I don’t know, is for the ‘Chandler group’ to whittle away at the ‘middle’ – people who lean toward voting ‘yes’ but perhaps have reservations. We are the ones who are still doing our due diligence. Our concern is not ‘moral’ but economic. We are heavily invested in this community with our homes and our businesses; we want whatever will benefit our community the most.
I have been leaning toward a ‘yes’ vote for quite some time. However, as I continue to do my due diligence I am having doubts. I have seeen people I respect come out against the casino. Who is coming out in favor of it?
This will be interesting …
kev, Mrage – the two westsiders here (me and Tony) did NOT oppose the westside location. We noted that the WDDC types (including Mrage) have made the POLITICAL decision that it be downtown.
Tony noted that he even has a connection for land out west that could be used. Who knows, if they build it downtown we can get responsible corporate citizen Chandler to move Intrust out west. I’m sure we would LOVE to have him as a member of our community.
I wouldn’t mind having intrust move out here to west wichita or goddard…
I’m sure the land owner wouldn’t mind it being a bank or casino built on the land… both places take our money… :-)
As a former resident (engineer) of Las Vegas, Nevada, I find that some of the anti-casino talk is way off base. While there were a few negative aspects, just like any type of businesses, there were also some positive aspects. A city with gambling generally has to spend up to 60% of the gambling generated income on law enforcement. But there were many local support businesses, such as building maintenance, that were not directly involved gambling and yet brought in legitimate income and professional workers.
Las Vegas also saw some international trade grow there. Las Vegas had the highest proportion of churches per capita of any US city at that time. The maintenance and hotel workers were the ones attending those congregations. And in addition, those residents were very friendly to strangers, lot more than what I have seen here recently (as a native-born citizen of Wichita).
In New Mexico, we saw the Indian tribes distribute their gaming income to all of their members, especially helping the elderly and college student needing scholarships. How about using gaming income for things that we don’t see most churches doing? Many of my Kansas relatives here have seen so many helpless people abandoned by local churches, including those in Wichita and the surrounding areas — Wonderful!
Some anti-gaming people make a big point about gambling additions. The rampant drug additions in Kansas towns validates the fact that even illegal activities go on while most Christians don’t pitch in. In New Mexico, there were many people who helped addicts out with mineral therapies (zinc and magnesium). But where are these same Kansas anti-gaming voices to personally help out addicts? There are several methods that can help addicts out, if people get personally involved.
But don’t expect the anti-casino to personally get involved — just protest things they don’t like and then walk away.
P.S. At Las Vegas, on three separate times I lost my wallet, checkbook, and keys. All three times they were returned to me with nothing missing. But here in south central Kansas, I lost my wallet and some A-hole has to do nasty and illegal things with the contents and never return anything to me.
Explain that!!!
And please explain the new found heartlessness of Wichita residents:http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/8304897.html
We never saw that in the past — does this justify not wanting casinos????
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