Casino and real estate mogul Phil Ruffin, in a phone interview this week with The Eagle editorial board, said he remains serious about bringing a Trump casino to Wichita — and that friend and business partner Donald Trump “is excited about it,” too.
As a market, Wichita is “on the edge” in qualifying for a Trump casino, Ruffin said, but he thinks it can work here. A downtown location is still his preference, but he’s hedging his bets and looking at other sites as well.
Kansas Lottery executive director Ed Van Petten told The Eagle that Kansas law, which forbids a dog track owner from also owning a casino, probably wouldn’t prevent Ruffin from doing the project, but Van Petten has asked Attorney General Paul Morrison for a legal opinion on the matter.
Ruffin said local anti-gaming groups are “totally wrong” to argue that a casino wouldn’t attract tourists and economic development.
A Trump casino, known for its opulence, would “bring people in from Nebraska, Oklahoma and Missouri,” he said, and bring dollars into the community.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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129 Comments
Ruffin should buy the Canadians out of their plan. I like the location around Century II for a casino project, than property he owns.
The City will prosper better that way. They can sell more property.
He’s probably legal to manage property but not own the casino and his dog track slots.
Does he believe in state partnership in the casino’s? I don’t think so.
Trump name on a building here, that’s not impressive.
We’ll still have the taller one Epic Tower, half done project, never finished.
Ruffin has purchased large office buildings here, but not touched that one.
If Ruffin and Trump want to put Wichita on the map, we need Twin Business towers. An aggressive developer would tear the one tower down or alter the exterior.
They can always try Ruffin or Trump names on the downtown arena.
Invest in that, arena with more seats plan.
Anti-casino people aren’t totally wrong, their allowed to be concerned about social costs.
We have a chance to sell City property downtown, that’s why I want to say yes.
City could use money for other projects people are concerned about. Have money for the social programs that deal with gambling addictions. All other addictions as well.
Strange as it may sound, Mrage, I think the single tower looks interesting. (Isn’t it called the Epic Tower?) Somebody coming into the city for the first time doesn’t have a clue there are supposed to be two. Why build another when we can’t fill the buildings downtown that are already there?
Epic should be used for entertainment to lure people downtown. I’m thinking of a week long Air Capital Festival, with the annual airshow supplemented by paragliding and hangliding enthusiasts jumping off the top of Epic and filling downtown skies with colorful wings. Also BASE jumping might be doable. Then they could hire a Hollywood stunt team, inflate one of those big air cushions used in movies placed on the ground next to the building and have the stuntmen jump off the roof. I bet this would draw huge crowds.
MPS,Yeah, that would attract quite a crowd- of lawyers!
If Wichita is to have a casino- which might be a good thing- it is hoped that they do it right beginning with putting it DOWNTOWN where people ARE and the hotel rooms ARE and not out in the middle of a cow pasture where the arena is.
Here’s what should happen. Reserve the current proposed arena footprint near Wichita’s “Old Town” for the casino if approved by voters.
Move the proposed arena site up to the Kansas Coliseum site and build it adjacent to the present “aged” coliseum with a new design to offer better acoustics for concerts … then implode the old warrier Coliseum building. Of course, retain the adjacent Horse Show arena and two pavilion buildings. This would save the 5,000 free automobile parking spaces and the R.V. park around the periphery. Another advantage would be no break in concert activity.
Omit the expensive ice sheet and multiple Zambonies for ice hockey in the proposed arena … and assist Wink Hartman (no acquaintance incidentally) to put the ice hockey ice sheet in or near his indoor football arena.
With millions of dollars thus saved, build a new Downtown Convention Center with an adjacent International Bowling facility with all the bells and whistles to attract international bowling visitors from Europe, Asia, Middle East promoting world wide cooperation. This should be across the river from Century IIperhaps on site of Metropolitan Baptist Church.
With additional millions of dollars saved under this scenerio, build a spartan homeless facility in the vicinity of City/County complex, possibly on site of Red Cross buildings.
Let public prioritize the remaining millions of dollars thus saved from the $300,000,000.19 budgeted for the downtown white elephant arena.
Build a new central library in the Water Walk development perhaps on site of Gander Mountain building or west side of Arkansas River, and east of ICE SPORTS.
Remodel and reconfigure Lawrence-Dumont Stadium to be used for Soccer games in off baseball season. This idea needs more tinkering.
And extend Water Walk development eastward into downtown as leasing firms up.
Any thoughts?
i really hope we get a casino
i really hope we get a casino
With millions of dollars thus saved, build a new Downtown Convention Center with an adjacent International Bowling facility with all the bells and whistles to attract international bowling visitors from Europe, Asia, Middle East promoting world wide cooperation. This should be across the river from Century IIperhaps on site of Metropolitan Baptist Church.Posted by: JWink | June 15, 2007 at 06:33 AM
What is it that you are smoking this morning? International Bowling Center? But the Arena is the “white elephant”? This building would be empty 95% of the time. Put the pipe down and get some sleep JWink
“Ruffin said local anti-gaming groups are “totally wrong” to argue that a casino wouldn’t attract tourists and economic development.”
For reasons I’ve fully laid out previously, BULLS&#%.
Kansas simply will NOT be a “destination casino” – people will NOT flock to Kansas to gamble. That means that Kansans will simply be taking money away from other Kansas businesses, and pouring it into a casino so that developers can skim off millions. Will they use those millions to fund the costs to communities of dealing with the social side-effects of the casino? Of course not.
Look and see how many dollars casino developers will pour into getting the vote to pass, and then decide who benefits from a casino.
It’s a sucker’s bet. But people have always been suckers – just attach enough bells and whistles to it, and they’ll blindly follow.
A few comments:
Mrage – might C-II be serving a good function right now? Are you not aware that it is our center for performing arts and other such events? Are you not aware that not everyone is a basketball fan and that some people are into the arts?
Music Theater’s season is starting this week. I am not sure the total number of performances but I think it is about 30 or so. Multiply that by 2000 per performance and you get sone real numbers. Add to that symphony, opera, various trade shows, and other performances and you will see that C-II is fairly busy.
http://www.kansas.com/entertainment/arts/story/86080.html
Eliminate C-II and where do you expect the arts to go? A basketball court? NOT LIKELY!
Looking at Trump/Ruffin – I wonder if the Derby Refinery site would work? Right on the canal Route; a large footprint available; the City owns land up there that is truly derelict. And, while not IN downtown close to downtown. Casinos tend to be self-contained developments.
I wonder if Rosie O’Donnell will attend the opening if a new Trump Casino is erected?
Kansas as the first state to “own & oversee” casinos? Is that not odd. Have you looked at the fine print? The “official revenue” goes to the state. The Mayor stated that we will have to staff a new division of the police department which will be funded by the taxpayers that did not want the casino. The cost for 15 new officers (the Mayor’s estimate) and support staff is certainly something that is not being mentioned. Statistics prove that when Casinos come to an area like Wichita first hurt is the other entertainment venues – Crown Uptown – etc. Let’s Wise Up!
Rosie doesn’;t like erect… Oh, my bad, Sometimes my inner child screams to be let out, and just for a moment….Juvenile humor at it’s worst. I just saw the words and pop
lj – ;^)
Ya know, this vote will tell the rest of the world whether or not you have your christian jihadists under control. If the gaming is defeated, you know terry, joe and phred are still in charge of your community.
Vote for gaming, and the rest of the world might think you are ALMOST ready for prime time.
WHEN will Wichita govern itself? WHEN will you send the wingnuts the message that Wichita is not governed by their taliban?
Mike – I don’t think they’re talking about turning Wichita into Vegas. I think they’re talking about Kansans flocking to Wichita to gamble (instead of Topeka, KC, St. Louis or Oklahoma). The point is to keep those dollars here in Wichita. Who doesn’t want that?
And as far as social issues go, you’re not going to stop gamblers from gambling. Might as well, again, keep those dollars here.
Sorry I meant to address comments by GMC70, not Mike.
Pastor Mike – “Statistics prove that when Casinos come to an area like Wichita first hurt is the other entertainment venues – Crown Uptown – etc.”
How much of that is due to competition from entertainment at the casino (shows etc) rather than from the slots? Might it be that competition from new entertainment opportunities will always be a problem for older establishments if the older ones don’t keep up?
I commented above in my suggestion of a canal Route/21st St site that a casino complex is self-contained. In effect, are we seeing a WalMart of entertainment? Shows, bars, restaurants, etc, along with the gaming?
JFL:
Yea, that’s the only argument I’ve heard that makes any sense. And that amounts to “we gotta fleece ‘em before someone else fleeces ‘em.”
Makes ya proud, don’t it?
And KFG – I know that you are consumed with your presumed unholy trinity. You may take your marching orders from them, or are easily manipulated by them. But the rest of us aren’t. The rest of us can think for ourselves, thank you. Many of us can oppose expanded gambling for reasons that have nothing to do with religion – it’s simply bad business. Shockingly, reasonable people are permitted to disagree with you.
Get your certified Counseling degrees with a Gambling specialty today!
So, that you too can be a Bankruptcy court appointed counselor for big bucks! :)
GMC – you raise a good point about ‘fleece ‘em here’; however I would also point out that a significant number of people find this to be a fun form of entertainment. I don’t; I don’t understand why others do. But, to each his own!
Oh well GMC, we see how often YOU disagree with all things taliban.
You may say you think for yourself, but your posts always align with the reich wing republican christians.
Yep. I am overwhelmed by your ability to think for yourself…
Republican – I suspect more people have gotten into debt trouble due to fancy adjustable mortgages than from casinos.
Sigh -
KFG:
Did I cite – anywhere – religious objections to gaming?Did I cite – anywhere – any reference to your manipulators?Did I cite – anywhere – in fact, have I cited, anywhere, any allegiance to your manipulators?
No.
You’re doing what you always do, however. Tar. Smear. Label. Whine.
It’s depressingly predictble. Jesus didn’t weep, he’s bored. He can recite you. Ad nauseum. As can most of us.
And I’ll remind you again, that shockingly, reasonable people are permitted to disagree with you, and be reasonable people. I’ll even concede that reasonable people may disagree with me and be reasonable people (though I can’t understand how that could possibly be . . . ;-)
People should be allowed to gamble. The government has no business regulating personal behavior in this matter.
I do think, however, that relying on gambling for economic development and as a source of revenue for government is foolhardy. Even the proponents of gambling concede there will be social costs, and the study the WDDC commissioned assigns numbers to these costs.
And since we have a government that has decided thatv it must take care of these social costs (a mistake, in my opinion), there will be government money spent.
But, they say, these costs are paid for by the economic benefit of the casino. That economic benefit being, to a large extent, the employee wages that the casinos will pay.
As near as I can tell, the reckoning the study uses is that the social costs of gambling are paid for by casino employee wages. Someone should ask these potential employees how they plan to spend their earnings. Will they go towards the social costs of gambling, or will the employees want to spend their wages as they see fit?
If we want to have a good gambling experience, I recommend that the state not be involved in the casino business. Don’t tax the revenue of the casino. Tax the profit just like any other business. Allow as many casinos as investors are willing to build, so that gamblers can select where to take their business in a competitive market. I can’t imagine anything worse than government casinos, which is what we’re getting.
(Someone said that the local casinos will have competition from the out-of-town casinos. If that competition is meaningful, why the push for local casinos?)
ALthough I will support a casino with my dolars (already been there,done that severaltimes :))I have no objection to one being built. Some of you are right, it will probably not make Wichita a “destination” city. Although more conventions may come, come to think of it. BUt most likely, it will be dollars that are from locals and the surrounding area. Big deal. Let them spend their money how the wish. Many thousands, probably millions, are already leaving the state and going to Topeka, or KC, or Oklahoma. gamblers will gamble. And if the other local entertainment dollars can;t compete, that;s business. Business is not made for the faint of heart.
“People should be allowed to gamble. The government has no business regulating personal behavior in this matter.”
Sure we do anonymous, it’s a State sponsored Casino.
All the more reason for people to comment on the matter.
ALthough I will support a casino with my dolars = Although I will NOT support a casino wih my dollars.Sorry
anonymous – a portion of casino revenues will go the the state and local governments. The money for social services comes from there; not from salaries.
Well, Ben, I would invite you to read the report and see if you understand it as I do.
Because here’s what I read in it:
“Most studies conclude that nationally between 1.0 and 1.5 percent of adults are susceptible to becoming a pathological gambler. Applying this statistic to the 521,000 adults projected to live within 50 miles of Wichita in 2008, the community could eventually have between 5,200 and 7,800 pathological gamblers. At a cost of $13,586 in social costs for each, the annual burden on the community could range between $71 and $106 million.”
That’s the cost. Now for the revenue:
Employee wages $37 MillionAdditional earnings in the county 42Additional earnings in state 6Property taxes 3Sales tax revenue 2Payroll taxes 14State casino revenue share 38Total $142 Million
Or, look at it another way. The Christiansen Capital Advisors LLC study projects a Wichita casino would generate $159 million revenue per year. 2 percent of that is about $3 million per year to pay for social costs that gambling promoter’s own study put at $71 to $106 million.
Anonymous-
On problem I see with your post is that you assume that the pathological gamblers aren;t already. I think that is a false assumption.
I’m just quoting from the study. These are the projected additional costs.
got it. THanks
“Well, Ben, I would invite you to read the report and see if you understand it as I do.”
Link it.
The only problem with the old Derby Refinery site Ben is that it’s potentially a Superfund Site.
Also the City has plans to reroute 21st street from I-135 moving north bound and heading west where it would meet up with the existing 21st street way west of Broadway.
These is going to be an overpass street to go over all the railroad tracks.
Plus we discussed it yesterday about the Intermodal Port of Wichita. It’s already planned to be on that site. So what we are going to see in the future is a huge parking lot on the old Derby Refinery site with nothing but shipping containers taking off trains and put onto semi-trucks. A company out of Pittsburgh is already going to set up shipping container cranes over the railroad tracks, much similar of those found at shipping ports like Long Beach.
That space is completely industrial with numerous metal recyclers in the area, that place isn’t setup to become a commercial zone. It’s a very poor place for a casino.
If you’re gonna build a casino, build it big and luxurious enough to make it a destination / resort casino ….. mimicing the pole barns / meager casinos in Oklahoma and Northern Kansas won’t make it worth the effort — as the saying goes –”Go big or stay home” I wonder if the big names in Nevada gaming are looking at ICT? The Harrah’s, Ginns etc …… If not why not?
Here’s a too late to do much about it idea …… Instead of the basic traditional arena, look into the idea of having the first indoor / movable roof minor league baseball complex (seat 8-10k +), that can be converted for arena type events of 15-18k … might be able to get a legitimate minor league team here with better / innovative facilities …. Be the first in the country ????
The link is on this page:
http://www.downtownwichita.org/corporate/news.cfm?ArticleID=20
Also the Eagle has reported on the WSU CEDBR study, which reports that the casino is a loser when all costs are figured.
Remember, I’m not against gambling in Kansas. The principle of personal liberty and limited government demands people being able to gamble as they choose.
It also imposes a large responsibility on gamblers, and that is to not impose their problems on others.
But problem gamblers will, it seems, create a fairly predictable set of problems that government feels it must solve.
And this, my friends, is the best our state can do for economic development.
Joe – as a licensed professional in the field I can assure you that the superfund issue can be resolved. It’s called brownfields development and is a priority for the EPA.
As for the intermodal port; well if it is truly happening good but is that just another pie-in-the-sky?
This sort of thing has been done all over the country with a great deal of success. Since the casino would be such a large footprint it would create its own dynamic.
“Casino and real estate mogul Phil Ruffin, in a phone interview this week with The Eagle editorial board, said he remains serious about bringing a Trump casino to Wichita — and that friend and business partner Donald Trump “is excited about it,” too.As a market, Wichita is “on the edge” in qualifying for a Trump casino, Ruffin said.”
Pay attention to the above, what is in between the lines?So what is it, that these guys would be attempting an investment.Is it a reasonable measure of success or is it failure?
anonymous,The problem with your numbers is that you are suggesting that EVERY succeptible compulsive adult within 50 miles will be sucked into this casino. Interesting proposition.
I have serious questions on WSU’s report.
Although they do say that on economic grounds, the casino will be a huge net benefit.
But Social Cost are still speculative. They even made sure that a disclaimer was given for the social cost. But this is what they list as social cost:
Social costs borne by business and families. Theseinclude loss of productivity on the job, lost time and unemployment, bankruptcy,suicide, illness, divorce, separation and abused dollars. The value of theseexternalities is included in the Social Cost (SC) analysis.
You are really talking about a huge speculation when you are factoring in time loss and productivity loss on the job. That can be caused by anything. I remember a news report that shows that the NCAA BasketBall finals alone had a billion dollars of net productivity loss for our nation. But that isn’t true dollar amounts, nor is it anything that the tax payers has to forward that amount to.
So when you look at the study, make sure you look at the financial (fiscal) cost of what a Casino would have on our community. Social Cost can be brought it by anything. If Spirit or Cessna lays off thousands of workers, that will put more social cost on our community than a Casino would ever do. So if you want to compare Social Cost, do it with a comparable situation that is not a Casino. That way you can give the voters an understanding on what a social cost is. Social and fiscal costs are not brought in by Casinos or gambling alone.
http://media.kansas.com/smedia/2007/06/15/11/061507casinoimpact.source.prod_affiliate.80.pdf
You can’t dismiss the group of people that are sucker in the payday loan companies that are litter all over the city.They would make good gambling addicts.
Goos point Joe – especially “NCAA BasketBall finals alone had a billion dollars of net productivity loss for our nation”
Sure, someone can claim that while I was ribbing the KU fans after the Bruins thrashed them we were not being productive. But, after ‘blowing a bit of steam’ we were all energized and got back to work. Such ‘disruptions’ are essential to making a place function in the long run.
No productivity loss here during the NBA Finals Joe.
I knew the Spurs were going to win, so I didn’t bother watching. :D
kg, they’re not “my numbers.” I’m not suggesting anything, just reporting.
kg, have you read these reports?
Joe Williams, you are always willing to buy into dubious reports that tout economic benefit of proposed government intervention into markets. Don’t you think there can be costs and bad things that can happen, too?
What NBA finals? ;^)
Wichita needs to be taller. A couple of twin business towers, with offices, hotel or condo floors.
Whatever the market determines.
Some buildings downtown are empty because their full of asbestos.
The Epic Building location is good for twin towers.
Not sure it would be legal or responsible to allow base jumping off the Epic roof.
Someday a developer will grow Wichita taller that way. 18 stories, twin towers.
The Epic building is 16 stories?
Ben,
At no time will Century II events be harmed, if a casino goes in down there. At least I don’t think so
It’s still going to be a Convention Center, restyled inside.
Have the Canadians suggested gambling is going to be inside Century II?
The arts programs aren’t going anywhere.
Would the City spend money constructing a new Convention Center in another location?
See, read JWink’s thoughts, he wants a bowling alley next to a new Convention Center.
JWINK,
Your ideas beginning with the arena in the Coliseum spot go sideways from there.
The arena is downtown, accept it!
Library in the Gander Mountain location?
Moving the Baptist Church?
Some thoughts about a new library in the Watkins Steel area.
A new Convention Center could be placed next to it.
The Convention Center would face the river. Library would be closer to Seneca, along 2nd street.
Moving that Baptist Church is not required.
I don’t know where your desired international bowling alley would go. The City isn’t going to build it.
Why isn’t Park City interested in your bowling alley idea? Talk to Dee!
East of Ice Sports, WaterWalk has designed a condo building to go there.
“At no time will Century II events be harmed, if a casino goes in down there. At least I don’t think so”
That does not coincide with the concerns that I hear in the arts community.
“The arts programs aren’t going anywhere” If you divest their home how can you say that? Especially young people’s Music Theater which I am told is incompatable with a casino.
Why are you so driven to see the City sell these? To pump more money into your Arena?
“Some buildings downtown are empty because their full of asbestos.” That is not the reason.
Hurray for MTYP (Music Theater for Young People). Sorry to interrupt the discussion, but this is a great organization!
lj – yes they are! And their programs are worth protecting. I wonder if they will be entertaining us tomorrow evening before the regular MTW performance.
And lj – your comment is not an interruption – this question needs to be addressed.
I have not been to any regular MTW projects, but I will probably select at least one. My grandkids have been involved with MTYP for several projections, and I hav enjoyed them all. Some more than others, but great performances from some very talented kids.And great and talented directors/coaches for getting those fine perfomances from young people. The performing arts does need a home. C2 is a great one, already developed. I say leave it alone.
Ben,
The City has a chance to sell The Hyatt. They should. Mayor Brewer said the same thing.
Library wants a new building. Someone has to buy theirs.
Century II needs redevelopment inside. The Arts programs have their place for events. Until announcements happen, they shouldn’t worry about it.
Contractually the Arts have Century II dates years ahead.
If a new Convention Center is designed elsewhere, the Arts will stay in Century II until its built!
Once the Aug vote happens, everyone should get a detailed plan what the Canadians are offering to purchase.
They also are considering that building on corner of Douglas and Main. It is full of asbestos.
Older empty buildings downtown, some need expensive remodeling. Parking is a huge issue with some offices downtown.
I know where a great office is, but the surface parking is $30 a month. Few parking spots for visitors. That scenario makes it difficult to have offices in some locations downtown.
I want a Corporate to partner in the arena, the City doesn’t have to.
If a Corporate isn’t willing, the City has a vested interested to make the arena larger with more seats.
Some in the City don’t understand why “they” are constructing a smaller arena.
We know more about regional arena 101 since the vote happened. We have to respect the arena’s constructed around us and try to be competitive with them.
College basketball events will pass by Wichita, with a 15,000 seat arena.
Those are the most high profile events possible, that could be on national TV. College basketball that includes KU and KSU playing downtown, at least one game a season. Creating four team tournaments if they want to. WSU playing downtown in four team tournaments or when they want more from gate receipts.
WSU playing a out major college downtown could fill the arena.
The competition might request the larger facility than playing at Koch.
“Until announcements happen, they shouldn’t worry about it.” NO; THEY SHOULD BE PRO-ACTIVE NOT RE-ACTIVE.
“Parking is a huge issue with some offices downtown.” AND YOUR ARENA WON’T HAVE PARKING PROBLEMS?
“They also are considering that building on corner of Douglas and Main. It is full of asbestos.” SO? THAT CAN BE HANDLED.
“If a new Convention Center is designed elsewhere, the Arts will stay in Century II until its built!” AND IF THE MOON IS MADE OF CHEESE WE CAN ALL EAT FOREVER!
“I want a Corporate to partner in the arena” THEN GO GET ONE!
“If a Corporate isn’t willing, the City has a vested interested to make the arena larger with more seats.” NOW YOUR AGENDA BECOMES CLEAR. SELL OFF C-II AND EVERYTHING ELSE TO SUPPORT YOUR ARENA. THE HELL WITH THE ARTS!
Sorry Mrage but I have to disagree with you. Destroying the Arts just so YOU might be able to go to a basketball game makes no sense. 30 showings by MTW this season will draw more people with more money to Wichita than a couple of basketball games will. And, add to that the rest of what C-II hosts and I think we out-weigh you in terms of commerce in Wichita.
“WSU playing a out major college downtown could fill the arena” EVER HEAR OF KOCH ARENA?
“The competition might request the larger facility than playing at Koch.” BUT PROBABLY WILL NOT.
This might come as a surprise to you Mrage but the world does NOT revolve around basketball. In fact, the demographics of the population Wichita is trying to attract (so-called knowledge workers, college-educated) are more likely to patronize the arts than your Arena. So, gutting the arts to support your Arena makes no sense. In fact, maybe that is why none of the corporations are flocking to support your Arena.
Kansas simply will NOT be a “destination casino” – people will NOT flock to Kansas to gamble.
Yep, they said that about Vegas too. After all, it was just a sleepy little spot in the desert in the 40’s.
Ben,
You begin by saying its my arena, its yours as well.
You voted for it, no opportunity to re-vote, own the responsibility its getting built. Your arguments against the arena went nowhere.
I never said anything about the Arts being not being Pro -Active about their situation. Rumors can fly anywhere. Right now, they shouldn’t worry about it.
The Aug. vote hasn’t happened. The Canadians casino plan hasn’t been picked. That decesion in Topeka happens next year!
Consider the time it will take to purchase property around Century II.
It’s a couple of years.
Statements will be made about the future of Century II interior being redeveloped. The Arts community won’t have use rumors.
The Arts schedule and their events matter.
The City has already said, they are never selling Century II!
Parking for office downtown is different than creating parking for the arena.
Arena parking won’t be in the parking lot of the office I described.
The office is not in that area. I was suggesting why some office space downtown isn’t leased.
You can’t suggest I discount the Arts to get the arena.
I want the best arena we can get. The best opportunity for the facility to get events.
The City isn’t paying for the Arena at this time.
“The City isn’t paying for the Arena at this time” BUT – you called for the City to do so. AND – since the County’s budget has been stripped of infrastructure funding it looks like the City will have to pay for that.
“I want the best arena we can get.” THEN FIND SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO PUT MONEY INTO IT.
“The City has already said, they are never selling Century II!” GOOD! THEN QUIT CALLING FOR THE CITY TO SELL IT AND PUT THE PROCEEDS INTO THE ALBINO PACHYDERM!
“You … own the responsibility its getting built.” I WILL PAY MY TAXES – THAT IS THE SOLE EXTENT OF MY RESPONSIBILITY.
“I never said anything about the Arts being not being Pro -Active about their situation.” ACTUALLY YES YOU DID – WHEN YOU SAID THEY SHOULD ONLY BECOME CONCERNED AFTER BAD THINGS HAPPEN.
Ben,
I don’t believe your arena concerns are completely valid.
The City doing anything for the Arena, I don’t know about.
It’s in the best interests of the City, the arena is accessible and people don’t complain about parking.
They can assist County on parking issues.
Doesn’t mean money for the Arts will be spent on arena parking.
Because your on the other side of the arena idea now, your lumping my support for it, like its an attack on the Arts community.
I don’t plan two years from now. A year from now.
How can the Arts community? The City says by state law it can’t guarantee condition of Century II past one year.
If you want to be obstructive and not support the arena, I careless.
Your vote mattered. Until a County or City tax increase happens, don’t worry about it.
“They can assist County on parking issues.” WHY? WE VOTED A SALES TAX TO PAY FOR PARKING. PAY FOR PARKING FROM THE SALES TAX. PAY FOR INFRASTRUCTURE FROM THE SALES TAX. THAT IS WHAT WAS VOTED ON.
“Until a County or City tax increase happens, don’t worry about it.” NO. I PLAN AHEAD. ALSO THIS WAY THEY ARE ON NOTICE.
“If you want to be obstructive” I AM IN NO WAY OBSTRUCTING A $75 MILLION BUDGET FOR CONSTRUCTION AS WAS VOTED ON.
“How can the Arts community? The City says by state law it can’t guarantee condition of Century II past one year.” TECHNICALLY THAT IS TRUE. HOWEVER, IN THE PAST THEIR PERFORMANCE GAVE CONFIDENCE. NOW YOUR TALK OF SELLING C-II CREATES UNCERTAINTY. YOUR OBSTRUCTIONISM IS WHY WE LOST THE $100 MILLION BOWLING TOURNAMENT.
How about you finding a way to get the bowling tournament back in the Albino Pachyderm?
“an attack on the Arts community” YOU ARE THE ONE CALLING FOR SELLING C-II OUT OF UNDER THEM.
“Doesn’t mean money for the Arts will be spent on arena parking.” WHERE DO YOU PROPOSE THE CITY GET THE MONEY TO PAY FOR YOUR PARKING?
Your concerns about the arena are repetitive and I will wait until all the tax is collected to reserve judgment.
Before this year is out I hope there is a corporate partner in the arena. I can’t guarantee it.
Before September. By August. Sooner than later! I’m suggesting to a couple of executives in local corporations to do it. They aren’t denying the idea.
You can’t guarantee County won’t have money to operate the arena.
Stay on notice about a 2010 potential tax increase all you want. Lose sleep over it.
The Bowling Congress walked away, what can Wichita do.
I don’t advocate the City selling Century II at all.
I said, the City needs to sell property around Century II. I have no idea how the Canadians want to use Century II.
City won’t sell out The Arts, to get a Casino.
“Before this year is out I hope there is a corporate partner in the arena. I can’t guarantee it.
Before September. By August. Sooner than later!” GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!
“You can’t guarantee County won’t have money to operate the arena.” I AM BASING THAT ON THE COUNTY’S WORDS WHICH I HAVE IN WRITING.
” The Bowling Congress walked away, what can Wichita do.” GOOD QUESTION. WHY DON’T YOU SUGGEST THE ALBINO PACHYDERM AS A SITE FOR THEM?
I careless about the Bowling Tournament if they don’t want to be here.
“I careless about the Bowling Tournament if they don’t want to be here.” $100 MILLION LOSS TO THE WICHITA ECONOMY. OBVIOUSLY YOU DON’T CARE ABOUT WICHITA AT ALL!
They don’t want allow Wichita to make that $100 Millon. They don’t care about Wichita.
They walked away. No matter what facility is offered, 2011 isn’t happening here.
You are probably correct; that $100 million is lost. And you don’t care that $100 million is lost to the Wichita economy.
Some of us care about this community. Some of us give of ourselves for things like the river cleanup.
Others don’t care about Wichita …
If Wichita can’t ever get the Bowling Congress back, then that money is lost.
We failed to improve Wichita. The arena wasn’t supported. Casino vote failed. WaterWalk not finished.
No one goes to whatever baseball team plays in Lawrence-Dumont.
Maybe the Bowling Congress wants Wichita to improve. Create worthwhile facilities for tourism.
Create more pride among citizens.
Maybe they saw the arguments about the arena, complications in Century II with a future Casino, decided pulled out.
City is actively saying they must sell The Hyatt. No guarantee that hotel won’t be undergoing remodeling in 2011.
Too much uncertainty here at this time.
I care we construct quality facilities in Wichita that have long term benefit.
Some day the Bowling Congress may accept Wichita bids. It could be a decade from now.
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
“Casino vote failed.” WHAT CASINO VOTE?
“The arena wasn’t supported” WRONG – THE VERSION CAMPAIGNED PASSED. IN FACT, MAYBE THAT IS WHY THEY PULLED OUT!
“complications in Century II with a future Casino,” THAT’S MY POINT!
“Some day the Bowling Congress may accept Wichita bids. It could be a decade from now.” AND YOU WON’T CARE THEN EITHER IF WE GET THE MONEY!
“No one goes to whatever baseball team plays in Lawrence-Dumont.” BUT YOU THINK THEY WILL GO TO WHATEVER TEAM PLAYS IN THE ALBINO PACHYDERM!
“If Wichita can’t ever get the Bowling Congress back, then that money is lost.” SOME OF US CARE ABOUT SUCH THINGS; YOU DON’T.
Come on guys! Ben and Mrage! Let’s focus at the topic on hand; the Casino issue. Let’s not get distracted with the arena issue right now.
The nonsense talk about revoting confused the Bowling Congress.
Maybe the polls you value, scared them. The nonsense polls.
People here get outraged over nonsense. They can’t prove $100 Million will be created in this particular community where people choose not to attend.
Citizens here have pride in their not attending events. Just like your claiming to behave when the arena opens.
You can continue believe I’m on some other side of your beliefs in concerns. Easy for some to believe in nonsense.
Joe! To a certain entent they may be inter-related. I have herd it said that they want it at C-II to support your Arena. Also, in the County’s comments about selling Britt Brown for a Casino they stipulate that it cannpt compete with the Arena. Since hosting shows, conventions, etc, could ALL be construed as competing it would seem that becomes a deal-killer.
In fact, the thing that led to the connection here was the suggestion that the City sell its property to the Canadian group (maybe a good idea, maybe not) and use the proceeds for the Arena project.
“the City has a vested interested to make the arena larger with more seats.”
“Ruffin should buy the Canadians out of their plan. I like the location around Century II for a casino project”
So, they ARE connected. In fact, it is I who wants to separate them; thus my suggestion for Canal Route/I-135 as a possible site.
I was intrigued about the possibilities of a C-II site but have come to the conclusion that it has more minuses than pluses, for reasons cited above.
Joe! It’s called looking at the BIG PICTURE!
Ben just wants the casino so the topless dancing showgirls come to town. :(
“Citizens here have pride in their not attending events. Just like your claiming to behave when the arena opens.” WHAT CLAIM ABOUT WHEN THE ARENA OPENS?
“The nonsense talk about revoting confused the Bowling Congress.” ACCORDING TO WHOM?
“Maybe the polls you value, scared them. The nonsense polls.” EARTH TO MRAGE – THOSE POLLS CAME OUT AFTER THEY ANNOUNCED THEIR PULLING OUT.
“Easy for some to believe in nonsense.” YEA. LIKE 18,000 SEATS. LIKE BIG-12 TOURNAMENTS. LIKE NCAA TOURNAMENTS.
Hi Republican. Actually, I have rather little interest in the casino. If I am looking for topless I can go to any of those joints that advertise so much!
Well! You’re Derby Refinery site is a no go. Although I understand you would like that location, because that would mean potential work would go your way.
But my concern is the impact studies and what methodology they are using.
For instance: Janet Harrah’s study (I’m just combing over it now), but has some speculative accounts in there.
1. She writes that 50% of the jobs created by the casino would be offset by other jobs in the area. Meaning that if the casino employees 1,100 people, it would drag out 550 people away from other local businesses. She gives no study or reference in how she came up with a 50% arbitrary number.
There is other parts of the study I’m still trying to get an understanding at the moment.
Joe, why don’t you see stand alone restaurants and other places of employment that employ service workers near Casinos in Las Vegas?
They can’t compete, that’s why.
When the main money maker of your establishment is money and the odds are in favor of your establishment, it’s a no lose proposition.
There is a reason why casino owners get and stay very rich.
Joe! Why do you say Derby is a no go? Your ficticious intermodal facility?
By the way, it is unlikely I would be bidding for their brownfields work. However I think the City still has some people on staff knowledgeable on that.
the 50% figure might make sense for reasons I have already raised. A restaurant, for example, would draw from other restaurants. Same with shows which is why Crown Uptown is so concerned. As I noted, a casino complex will be self-contained. It will have its own hotel, bars, shows, etc.
that is why I have made it a point to visit some in other cities; to see how they operated.
Ben,
You better vote No in Aug for the Casino. Your risking Century II.
City wants the Canadian project over what Ruffin/Trump is thinking about.
Who has power in Topeka, Ruffin or Wichita? Ruffin is Sebelius biggest supporter.
What project does the County support?
Ruffin won’t like a Casino at the dog track. Casino would have more slots and better variety of gambling.
He wouldn’t put Trump branded casino out there.
Interesting Mrage. Instead of trying to find a casino project we can all support you would rather kill it. I am still open about how I will vote. I wish I knew more about where it might end up.
I know at least one City Councilman has come out in favor of the casino going to Britt Brown. Obviously the County would support that – BUT – the non-compete part.
Who knows?
Joe! You seem to be in the know – if the casino passes do they put it at C-II? Or a “Trump Tower” somewhere near Old Town?
Ben? Fictitious Intermodal Port?
Umm! Well! What do you think we are doing by spending over $100 million dollars to raise the railroad tracks from Pawnee to 13th st.?
Here is the City of Wichita’s feasibility study for the Intermodal Port! 62 pages long!
http://www.wichita.gov/NR/rdonlyres/8F898D8D-E2FA-4F1F-B33D-5852B6393B29/0/WIITPCBaselineReport.pdf
The location is out of our hands. It’s not the city or county’s decision to decide on which and where the casino will be.
It will be squarely on the Kansas Lottery Commission. That means they will be looking at which option will pull in the most gaming revenue, not necessarily location or other factors.
The Trump Tower will be located of Douglass Street just across the street south of the Bank of America building. Ruffin already owns the building on the corner and said that he will buy out the Kansas Health Foundation building for a real good, hard to refuse offer. The Kansas Health Foundation hasn’t really made any comments, because it’s too early to really know. The Casino vote is still not here yet.
The non compete idea is about an arena in the Coliseum location.
Developer can purchase Britt Brown but not keep it as an arena.
Unless its a larger dirt show facility. That won’t compete with events in the downtown arena.
Casino is not going happen outside of Wichita city limits, if the vote is approved.
Downtown is the place for the casino. Where is the question. Tower or by the River.
The more state sponsered gamblin and the more casinos the better!
Bring it on!
ANY means used by government to raise revenue is a good thing. To heck with those who claim high moral standards.
Let’s legalize prostitution and drugs next! Tax the acts that are unstoppable today and the government will get rich!
Gamble! Gamble! Gamble!
Only Native Americans have the right to run casinos in Kansas. It’s abhorent that first you white people take our land, now you take away our only means of making any income for ourselves.
What’s a New Yorker doing in Kansas taking money away from businesses in Kansas to move to New York?
Joe! I might just like that tower idea. Close to Old Town and everything else. While it is up to the Lottery I am sure what the County says will be a major factor.
Mrage – the non-compete would be for a casino. Shows and such could be construed as competition.
Joe – the City has been talking about that property up there for decades with nothng to show for it. IF (and it’s a big IF) somebody came up with a proposal I would think they would jump at it. They own a lot of land up there in the Bridgeport renewall zone.
Tower is fascinating. I’m going to have to think about that one. I’ll have to drive down there and look at it.
Legalizing prostitution might help reduce some of the crime and drugs involved in this business.
Though I’m not sure taxing this business will help raise the standard of living for hookers, unless you took the Pimps out of this business.
I suppose you would have a little booth in all the Walmarts instead of having a Pimp to pay.
Of course, passing thereferendum is definitely NOT a done deal.
I agree with Wahawk. Leave the casinos to the N.A.’s. They need the income more.
From my Thirbleg measurement studies published on gambling, I have concluded that casinos are one of the most productive of all business enterprises.
Not only is there a tangible service provided, but the ancillary income from the food and the booze substantially adds to the productive contributions to society from this gambling business.
What better products or services could we have to devote our produtive resources to that would enhance the goods and services provided by Kansas any more so than gambling? Wheat production? Switch grass? Nonsense!
Say Little Fox, I’d like to discuss your proposition a little further if we could.
Thank you Republican. Nice to see another voice of reason here.
Ben,
The Ruffin/Trump Tower doesn’t risk Century II, that’s the one you should support.
Doesn’t mean you vote yes in Aug, that plan gets picked.
Who wins, Ruffin or Canadians?
County and Wichita agree with one of those projects and location choices.
Bob Knight’s group and Park City will try and offer their plan.
Wichita has power over Park City desires.
Dee ranting in Topeka could come back to haunt her.
I’ll risk Century II area as my favorite casino choice. Though my vote doesn’t pick that one either.
To satisy some people,maybe Ruffin out to buy the Canadians out. Ruffin/Trump does the project by the river.
Ruffin said, he is scouting other locations. Will he purchase The Hyatt? Shouldn’t a casino be near that hotel?
Say Pa, won’t those casinos ruin our town in Kansas?
Will we still have peace and quiet here with all those gamblers and hookers, and drug dealers all around?
Why no Laura, those casinos will bring much needed jobs and revenue. And don’t tell Ma, but I plan on visiting town more regularly now!
Laura, can you tell me if all those flashing lights will be there around the casinos? Not sure I’ll be able to see em so clearly.
Pa, can you tell me what the H Mrage is talin about?
Why no Laura, I’ve never been able to figure out what Mrage is talkin about. Don’t think she even knows.
Clowns have entered the discussion.
Clown, its all the same troll.
Big Tom Tom, the answer is no. I’m not that type of gal.
This gamblin subject is becomming such a mockery of itself! I can’t stand this talk anymore!
I wish you all would take this subject seriously. We must get more gambling business to this state if we are to survive. What else can we do? It’s not like there’s any skilled labor here.
There really should be could be some legitamite businesses encouraged to grow in Kansas.
We can be productive in Agriculture, Education, Research, and Manufacturing. It’s a great place to live. Just need to establish the economic environment to encourage businesses and people to move here.
Like Kansas the best place to raise a family with outstanding education, low crime, low income taxes, low sales taxes, less business regulation, clean air, and clean water, and affordable housing.
We don’t need state sponsored non-productive gambling. What’s the real benefit to casinos?
Ya ever seen all the old people spending the last dime of their social security checks in the casion every month? Ya ever see the poor single mother on welfare there desparately trying to strike it rich?
We need more of such crap? What business is it of government to sponsor and tax gambling? How is that supported by the US Constitution?
If Ruffin said, it must be so.
My argument is that gambling already exist. Might as well capitalize on it. Benefit downtown development, create low-skilled but decent paying jobs for those who really need a decent job, re-cooperate the social cost contributed by exisiting gambling avenues and facilities that we bare anyways and a whole host of other positive economic contributions.
Another thing I notice on Janet Harrah’s study. She specifically mentions that she does not take in account nor even figured the economic benefits of the hotel operation of the casino, the increase in conventions and entertainment options.
No lgh! The people who are desperate don’t really go to Casinos. The people that are spending their last dollar are doing it on the Powerball or a lottery scratch ticket.
Joe – good points. Would the tower you mention have hotel rooms? Too bad the Allis came down.
I’d love to see them publish a rendition of the Trump/Ruffin proposal. The more information the voters have the better. I hate the idea ov voting on something I don’t really know. That is a definite weakness to the referendum.
It will be a very interesting couple of months.
“My argument is that gambling already exist. Might as well capitalize on it.” Joe Williams
My argument exactly Joe. Might as well legalize and tax drugs and prostitution too.
Every Trump Casino has a hotel skyscraper and parking garage.
It is predicted to be 400 rooms. His Atlantic City operations have over 1000 rooms in those hotels.
Any means for the government to raise revenue is a good thing.
Nobody is making these people go gamble and throw their money away. Some would say that gambling is a regressive tax on the poor, but who cares? They are investing their money as they see fit!
People have a right to spend their own money however they choose, unless of course, the government decides to raise taxes and spend government money on socialist programs, but that’s a good thing.
TT! Wouldn’t mind that at all also.
Like the famous slogan says, Why is it illegal to charge for a service, which is perfectly legal to give it away for free?
Prostitution works in Europe quite well and even in Nevada. Don’t see anything wrong with it.
Say Pa, skyscrapers and parking garages and 400 rooms!
Can we all go see this!
What’s the environmental impact of these casinos taking up land everwhere and spreading their garbage all around? Aren’t people wasting gasoline and polluting the environment by driving to these places?
Sex for free Joe? I know the song, but never thought that was true!
If anybody has ever been to any Casino, and not the POS Indian pole barns, I mean like Las Vegas and Atlantic City. The Casino floors aren’t really that big. What it really is, is mostly a hotel operation with some entertainment.
Most high end hotels have bars, disco’s, high end restaurants and convention and meeting rooms.
But not all people who stay at these hotels goes to the bar. So a lot of people who stay at a Casino hotel don’t even gamble. I remember reading something like 65% of people who go to Las Vegas never put a dollar on a poker table or a nickel in a slot.
Little Dipper! Aren’t they already driving to Oklahoma or Harrah’s north of Topeka or even KC?
Absolutely correct Joe! I have been in a number of casinos – most recently in Montreal – and did not go for the gambling. Had a good dinner at that one. The key, I think, will be the shows. And, that might be what really scares the guy at Crown Uptown.
I think that is also the reason for the 50% ‘thing’ you mentioned from Harrah’s study.
Joe! WAY off topic. Didn’t you once say you have twins now? If so you are REALLY in for it! hehehe
They are sleeping right now. But yeah! It’s a lot of work. Never held a baby or changed a diaper in my life.
First pregnancy lands us twins. Yeah! I don’t get much sleep at all, and sore muscles to boot from carrying them and handling them quite often.
Yeah! It’s all good! :) I’m happy.
“Kansas simply will NOT be a “destination casino” – people will NOT flock to Kansas to gamble.”
If you build it, they will come.
Double trouble, double fun, double love. Your life will never be the same! But, you will love it.
I think that Wichita should not have “a casino” but several casino and hotel complexes. Tear down the ratty hotels along S Broadway and make a Vegas style strip from downtown south. Fill it with high end hotels and casinos- perhaps having up to 20,000 rooms.
“What’s the environmental impact of these casinos taking up land everwhere and spreading their garbage all around? Aren’t people wasting gasoline and polluting the environment by driving to these places?”
One thing Kansas has plenty of is land. And in Vegas they now have a tram that runs the strip and downtown so you don’t have to face traffic on the strip to get from place to place.
20,000 rooms and legalized prostitution! So much demand and so little time! I may be able to retire by the time I’m 25!
“20,000 rooms and legalized prostitution! So much demand and so little time! I may be able to retire by the time I’m 25!”
Sounds good to me! I think all vices should be legal as long as they don’t harm others. If you wish to go gambling in a casino, get a hotel room, smoke a joint and call a whore to your room, you ain’t doing nobody else any harm.
“Just need to establish the economic environment to encourage businesses and people to move here.”
HOLY crap! Stop the presses! WHY didnt someone think of this before?
Uh, there is this little thing called workforce, which kansas lacks in both quality and quantity.
And then there is this little thing called “quality of life” which kansas also lacks in both quality and quantity.
And we would NOT want a business that produces a product or service here and then sends the money elsewhere. Not like boeing. SURELY NOT!!!
And I agree that we should legalize both marijuana and prostitution. Hell, what do you all call dinner and a movie with benefits? Kindergarten?
Prohibition has NEVER worked in these oh so holy united states. How’s that “war on drugs” working? About like the war on terra or war on poverty?
“And then there is this little thing called “quality of life” which kansas also lacks in both quality and quantity.”
Farmgirl, why do you live in Kansas then?
“Uh, there is this little thing called workforce, which kansas lacks in both quality and quantity.”
Are you saying the people of Kansas are stupid? Why is that? Not enough money for education, right. Oh, and Boeing employs how many workers in Kansas?
i can’t stand how some of you people talk about wichita. these pesimistic attitudes make me want to throw up. Stop tryin to hold wichita back from being the city that it should be. It seems like everybody else sees it but these small, narrow minded thinkers that consume alot of wichita. Wichita is not supposed to be this quiet big, small town. Let the city florish. These men want to come to the city and do something special. Something that hasn’t been done before,i think that alot of wichitans are just scared of change. some guy bloging on kansas. com said that nobody would come to wichita to gamble!!!! thats the kind of attitude that keeps wichita from being what it should be. Think about if we had a casino downtown. people could gamble, then walk to the waterwalk, check out the new arena, walk on the river looking at our new ubdated downtown, catch a movie in the one of a kind warren theatre downtown, walk to oldtown, or even go to cow town and see the old wild west, since kansas is the keeper and the heart of the west.or you could be checking out the museums on the river, etc. but some wichitans think, as if they live in a small town in western kansas, they can’t see the big picture. People would come to wichita because it would be ONE OF A KIND!!!
and another thing, if people hate wichita as much as they say they do, which i don’t know why. How do they really know whats best for the city. They can’t even see that they live in a wonderful place. I have traveled all over the U.S., people that live in cities with half as much as wichita has to offer, are proud and content with their city, why are wichitans soo different. maybe this casino and waterwalk will give some of these spoiled cry baby wichitans some pride in their city.