State Sen. Jim Barnett, R-Emporia, a former local school board president, has seen good and bad come from the No Child Left Behind law. Here’s one of his observations about the latter category, as reported by the Emporia Gazette: The law “caused us to focus on mediocrity. We’ll never excel as a nation or as a state if our plan is to advance the average.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
Registered?
Commenting on WE Blog now requires you to be a Kansas.com member. Use the links above to register, if you haven't already, or to log in.Contact us
Follow us
Daily Archives
-
Recent Comments
- Pleefer on Open thread 11/22
- Regular on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- American_Way on Open thread 11/22
- American_Way on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
- satatom on Open thread 11/22
- cosmos_originally on Open thread 11/22
149 Comments
It has been reported that the new non-creationist-majority KBOE has voted to reduce the 2.5 GPA standard for non-Kansas-educated teacher recruits, to bring in math and science teachers.
Bring in “C” grade teachers college graduates who are extremely confused about math and science to teach Kansas students. A great idea to hamstring Kansas students. Why are Kansas’s education leaders so determined to engender students’ failure? How about setting a 3.75 (”A-”) GPA, and if nobody responds, then raising math and science teacher salaries to a level that such people do respond?
Wasn’t this outcome obvious from the start?
More of the “dumbing down” of the American child. And we wonder why?
Somehow I knew MPS would be one of the first to chime in about this one. It is totally irrelevant that the “new non-creationist-majority KBOE” voted as you say. It was the previous KBOE that brought total disgrace to this state with their attempts to bring religion into the science classroom.
I would tend to agree with you about the logic in lowering GPA expectations for Science and Math teachers. However,let’s be very clear about the reasoning behind this change. The fact of the matter is that there is a real shortage of teachers in these and other critical fields. Yes, it would be a great idea to pay these teachers more. I believe statute already allows this in the manner of signing bonuses, which really isn’t sufficient. It is quite a quandary.
MPS, please spare us your endless diatribes about charter schools, retired engineers,……blah,blah, blah. If you really want to be part of the solution, get out and actually do something about this problem. Oh, and just so you know………..Kansans appreciate your wife’s efforts as a medical care provider. This doesn’t mean we as a state are required to fall down on our knees and worship you and your wife just because you have an MD. Face it, you came to Kansas for was for the MONEY.
Of course they focus on mediocrity. That way there is no rich (intellectual) and there is no poor (dunce), only the middle (dumb masses). It follows along the political viewpoints of the teachers unions and democrats.
It’s really very simple. If you want a higher level of applicant, offer more money. But we know that’s not going to happen in conservative Kansas. Every time a raise for teachers is mentioned, we come unglued. We expect teachers to live on subsistence wages and do the job because they’re “dedicated” and love the children. Make no mistake; I love my job, but I do it for the MONEY and I don’t expect teachers to be any different. There is no job more important than teaching kids; the pay should reflect that, especially now that classrooms are a war zone.
And ProudMan, enough with the cheap shots at the teacher’s union. Kansas is the poster child for why teachers need representation. Otherwise, they’d have to work for slave wages here.
MPS stated “It has been reported . . . ”
Do you have a link for this? I’d like to read more – thanks!
NVM, MPS, found it.
See http://www.cjonline.com/stories/061207/sta_176407224.shtml
Not sure how these changes will help. Simply passing a test to add an endorsement in another science area won’t enable that teacher to gain NCLB “highly qualified” status. IIRC, schools are penalized for every non-highly-qualified teacher in a given subject area. Likewise (again, IIRC), students who complete a course taught by a non-highly-qualified teacher can’t use that course for admission to any KS regents schools.
Apophis, do you have any information on this?
CSA………this change has been brewing for at least 6 months. Right or wrong, it boils down to the fact there is a shortage of science teachers. I would imagine that some of this has to do with the push by the Regent’s to not allow HS Physical Science as a qualified admissions class. This would require HS’s to offer additional Science classes to fill that gap. One of those classes is Earth/Space and there is a BIG shortage in these teachers for a number of reasons.
I think this action by the KBOE is making a mountain out of a molehill. Pay teachers what they deserve and we’ll get the quality we really need. FYI……..mps is heartlander.
When the government has an effective monopoly on providing something, look at what we get.
If any private company had the type of monopoly power that the public schools do, the Eagle Editorial Board would be calling for a break-up.
We should expect no meaningful reform from public schools, as they have no incentive to change.
“Pay teachers what they deserve . . . ”
Problem is, lots of folks think teachers are overpaid as it is. After all, it’s an 8-3, 9-month job right? Ugh.
My concern is that someone who adds a chemistry endorsement via this testing route won’t have proper training in safety issues peculiar to that field. Kinda like claiming that a newly-licensed 16-year-old driver from Schoenchen is ready to drive in LA’s rush hour just because they passed a written test. A *lot* of research has been done during the last 20 years by the McDermott group on pedagogically sound methods of teaching physics – something not easy to assess in a multiple-choice content test. Just because one can derive Maxwell’s equations doesn’t guarantee one can get kids to truly understand the difference between field lines and equipotentials, or apply circuit rules.
This testing solution could be a good first step, but any teacher adding a chemistry endorsement in this manner needs to realize they must receive more safety training.
(And, yes, MPS outed himself long ago.)
If teacher unions went away tomorrow what would change?—————————
Physical Science as an admission class to college? Since when did this dumbing down start? What neckless geek made that decision?
—————————-A science teacher with a 2.5 GPA in college as credentialed…
You have to “not try” very hard to get those kinds of grades in college. I think this is the level of the sleepers and the absentee party chimps in college.—————————-
Did I mention that theTeacher’s Unions are killing education in America?
:)
First of all GPA is an average. A lower GPA doesn’t necessarily mean the student received a low grade in their science and math courses. Secondly, teachers with high GPAs aren’t necessarily the best teachers. Those teachers that had to work hard or had difficulty learning sometimes make the best teachers. They can relate to ALL students, especially those that struggle. They seem to have an ability to understand how to relay the information to those children. There is a HUGE diffence between knowing the information being taught and being able to teach it!
Many people with bachelors and advanced degrees in all kinds of fields are not considered qualified to teach in our public schools. Why? Because they don’t hold an “education” degree from a college in the U.S. or anywhere else in the world.
That’s why teachers are being recruited for USD 259 schools from the Phillipines, etc. I do not necessarily disagree with this because these teachers do bring an element of multi-cultural experience to our schools.
Also, I know programs exist in our area universities to qualify non-educational degree holders to teach in K-12 schools. But it is a jumping through hoops situation. Work a full taxing day as a teacher … then rush out to WSU or other college for perhaps four more hours of classroom study.
Of course, teaching is not for everybody. It takes a lot of patience, presentation skills, knowledge of subject matter, ability to communicate with students, satisfaction from achieving “one step at a time” objectives. And “inter-office politics are present in schools as in any regular profession.
“First of all GPA is an average.”
Takes a substantial of amount of “C’s” and lower grades to kill off all those “A’s and B’s.” :D
I don’t disagree with your reservations about endorsement by testing only. I think we should set back and see what really happens with this. I’m sure the data will be available from the Ed. Dept pertaining to this issue.
Also, tell where I can get one of those “9 month, 8-3 jobs”!
Oh…………….to anonymous…..private business has attempted to break into education. They are only in it for the profit. Edison was here in Wichita and what did they do? THEY CHEATED ON THE STATE ASSESSMENTS. What is best for our children is not take test after pointless test, but to attend Community Schools.
Republican, colleges require only a 2.0 GPA for graduation.
Agreed Republican – es[ecially to drag it all the way down to 2.5.
Hey Repuke…………..you need to come to terms with this concept: the “teacher’s unions” are here to stay. All of your whining and garbage spewing isn’t going to change that.
Ah…the attitude of the self-assigned oppressed. :D
screw you repuke
Apophis,
Just ignore the troll. It’s only purpose on the blog is to provoke reactions from people. Quite frankly, its words aren’t worth the electricity it takes to display them on our screens.
Very good point Tom!
Edison schools cheated on tests in Wichita? And then what happened?
The responsible person was removed, and then the Edison schools closed in Wichita.
Now if that cheating had occured in a public school, and there are allegations that it does all over the country, nothing happens.
That’s the difference between institutions that are accountable, and those that aren’t.
And public schools are not easily held accountable. Consider the dilution of state standards, where in Kansas about two-thirds of students on state test are considered proficient, but on NAEP tests, only about one-third are.
anonymous has been reading garbage on worldnet again. NCLB does not establish NAEP as the “national test”. Reality is that you cannot rate students based solely on a multiple choice. Of course you wouldn’t understand that concept, you’re NOT an educator. In fact, you spew the anti-community schools party line. Just another bush apologist!
Anonymous,
What makes you think that any instance of test-cheating on the part of teachers and administrators in Wichita wouldn’t result in firing?
We certainly wouldn’t want to hold teachers accountable for the job they do, now would we anonymous? :)
You know.. to similar standards as engineers, attorneys, physicians, dentists, police and fire…all who can be fired, sued or de-certified if they don’t meet the standards as outlined by the various credentialing or certification agencies.
No,we couldn’t do that, why that might be considered union busting. :D
Apophis, I never said NAEP and NCLB are related.
And I am not a Republican, so I don’t have to apoligize for our president.
But why is there the discrepency between the Kansas tests and the NAEP tests, do you know?
It may interest you to know that I was a teacher at a Kansas university for some time. That’s where I became acquainted with the product of Kansas public schools.
And Apophis, I don’t blame you for supporting the teachers union. In fact, I fully understand why you need union protection.
It’s our communist style system towards education is the reason why it’s so bad.
I wonder if College Professors have unions and if they don’t, why are they so successful in getting benefits, salary and other amenities. :)
I don’t know that there is cheating, Tom.
I doubt anyone is looking, through.
Steven D. Levitt found widespread cheating in public schools in Chicago in the last 1990s, and other studies have found more.
As more pressure is placed on public schools to perform on high-stakes tests, it is likely that cheating will increase.
Comparing NAEP to state test scores is comparing apples and oranges. NCLB requires the states to develop their own tests, so the NAEP comparison is ridiculous.
It is also irrelevant that you claim to once have been a teacher at a Kansas university. The students you might have experienced there was a result of their effort in HS. Giving a test isn’t “holding teachers accountable”. It’s simply one data point trying to quantify something that is truly not quantifiable. How can one really quantify what is going on in a child’s head?
NCLB is just another rightwing attempt to funnel public money into the private sector and to religious institutions.
What’s going on in a child’s head?
Hmmm, I thought the goal was to give proficiency in academics, not the totality of psychological evaluation.
However, they do have professions that deal with that. I believe they call them Counselors. :)—————————–I like having “data points.” If you gather enough of them, one can actually evaluate something or some one. :)
This really is a state issue, and I don’t think it has all that much to do with NCLB.
USA today ran a story about how states compare, and Kansas is down at the bottom of the list in how far off our standards are compared to the national standard.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2007-06-06-schools-states_N.htm
Scroll down to the left and click on the link to the map.
http://gns.gannettonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070606/GNSVIDEO50/70606002/-1/NCLB
And by the way I do have a stake in this. I’m sick to death of the schools skirting around what the law says they are supposed to provide for children with special needs. Then we are blamed for schools scoring poorly because of the makeup of the students.
For one, if they don’t include the special needs children in the scoring, that gives them a pass to not even try to do the best they can for our kids. There are times when testing them is just stupid though. It’s a double edged sword.
My child has the ability to be genius level, but hasn’t the social skills to learn in the same manner….and now he’ll probably be stuck in the group that will be excluded from testing.
The school has failed my daughter in the last 2 IEP goals, and this is STRICTLY the fault of the school. We HAD the proper supports in place in middle school, and when she went on to high school they said “we don’t need these”.. and basically ignored most of the interventions in her IEP. And the schools get away with this crap all day long.
As usual repuke, you try to simplify something that is indeed complex.
P-mom……………special needs students ARE included in testing. If you want to only grind your SPED ax, don’t bring it into the NCLB/insane testing conversation. Again, if the Feds would SPED to the fullest amount they have promised for years, then maybe your child would receive the full services he/she needs.
I don’t buy the funding problem as much, because some districts seem to do just fine with their sped depts vs others. I think your comment to me was highly inappropriate. And it IS important in this equation, as often when the reports come back, the schools try to blame the low scores on the makeup of their school population…and some have even sent out LETTERS saying this was why. And they have begun to exclude certain kids from testing.
XXX,
You seem overly sensitive to criticism of unions. Why?
Proudman…………….why criticize the unions in the first place? Unions are part of what make the USA a great nation.
Pmom……………I could care less if you THINK funding isn’t a problem. In reality, it is a big problem. As to you thinking my comments were inappropriate, sorry, I’m not here to please you or stand behind your almost dogmatic fixation on “how bad SPED is”. Yes, there are problems with SPED, but you are like so many parents who think the entire public school system is going to bend over backward JUST FOR YOU. Sorry, IDEA not withstanding, it isn’t going to happen. Finite resources equate to finite services.
The failures of the school system have two main causes.
1) teachers and teachers unions who think no teacher is bad enough to be fired
2) Parents who think no student is bad enough to be disciplined or held back
All the rest is mostly bs. Sure, there are problems, and finances are one of them. Coaches getting a million dollars and professors getting ????. But still, I think the baseline problems line up with the two I delineated.
Coaches getting a million dollars and professors getting ????. But still, I think the baseline problems line up with the two I delineated.Posted by: littlejohn | June 12, 2007 at 12:07 PM
Athletic programs on the college level are exempt from this debate, imho. The programs bring in 10’s of millions to the confernces and schools. The tuition to attend college would go up another 20% if not for the athletic programs. I agree with your cited examples, but athletics should not be in this debate.
Mike-
You could be right about the college level athletic programs and their financial impact upon colleges. I don;t know that it covers 20% of the tuition costs, but i certainly could be wrong. i don;t know that i really have studied it. My bad, maybe. Oh hell, my bad, period.
Let me give some examples of why I am critical of teacher’s unions. It’s because they insulate bad educators from facing the music and having to take responsibility for their actions. Thanks to them you tend to hear the following from too many teachers:
“As to you thinking my comments were inappropriate, sorry, I’m not here to please you…”
“…but you are like so many parents who think the entire public school system is going to bend over backward JUST FOR YOU.”
“Of course you wouldn’t understand that concept, you’re NOT an educator.”
“…please spare us your endless diatribes about charter schools, retired engineers,……blah,blah, blah.”
It’s this kind of attitude that would be punished with failure anywhere else, except in a monopoly. Screw the customer because they have to pay anyway is anti-choice, anti-freedom, and just plain wrong.
LjWe agree on most issues or at least respect the others opinion. On this topic we agree as well. I just thought bringing what coaches are paid is irrelevant to this topic. That’s all.
Proudman…………I’m glad you sense an “attitude” in me. I take that as a COMPLIMENT. For too long, educators have sat back and been bashed. No longer. If are gravely in error in your thought that unions shelter bad teachers. They do not. The teachers unions unsure that DUE PROCESS is given to every teacher.
You try to project the business model on education and it just doesn’t work. No one is truly “the customer”. A monopoly? NO, everyone has the choice to attend parochial, private or community schools.
Mike-
I had no problem with your comment,I think it may be a valid point, one I had not considered. I had not really thought about the financial return a succesful program might return to a college. I will have to look into that. Interesting thought!
Apophis-
I have to take issue with your 12:33 post. In fact, I have seen the union try and protect incompetent teachers, and stand in the way of removing tenure as a right that few of us enjoy. I have seen the union argue for fewer contact hours, etc. The teachers union, in my mind, is a detriment to the truly good teachers, and a boon to the poor onesAnd while it may be true that some have have choice to have their children pay for parachoial or private schools, they are in fact faced with the penalty of paying for their childs education twice. Once throught the tax system, and again through the tuition system of the private school. So they are penalized for excercizing their rights. I guess you are for this? Or would you agree to a tax writeoff for the tuition to a private school? Not just a deduction, but a tax writeoff. yes?There are many, many good teachers that want nothing but the best for their students, There are also lots of poor teachers, who do not want to be held accountable. If you are in th school system, you know that as well as I do. Just be honest.
LJ….take issue if you want. You really don’t know what you are talking about. Please cite your evidence that my union has tried to “protect incompetent” teachers. Teachers in Kansas do NOT have “tenure”, they only have due process rights after the first 3 years, 2 years if they have taught in another Kansas district. Your other assertion that the union has tried to argue for “fewer contact hours” is just a flat out lie as far as I can see. In fact, just this last year, the union in Wichita agreed to MORE days and MORE time each week. Get your facts straight.
Here is the bottom line about “choice”. It is never cheap. If I want to buy a Lexus instead of a Ford, it’s going to cost me. Why should anyone get a tax break to send their children to a school of their CHOICE just because they don’t like the local community schools. That kind of thinking goes hand in hand with the right-wing mindset of giving tax cuts to the rich and eliminating the estate tax (again, only affects the rich).
I will admit there are some poor teachers, not “a lot”. There some poor doctors out there….and dentists and accountants and so on and so forth. That is life. I don’t necessarily like it, but that is human nature. As far as teachers are concerned, if their performance is less than adequate, they need to be held accountable. They will have their due process rights, as provided by law.
Due process is a concept as American as apple pie.
I will not post specific instances where the union has tried to protect poor teachers, especially on a public blog, that is a violation of their privacy.i do now what I am talking about. I have one child that is a public school teacher, another that works in school administration, and my wife works for the public school system. I have seen it with my own eyes, and by the reports of teachers that are my friends and family.You and I both know poor teachers are not held to account. You and I both know that “due process rights” is just another bs term for tenure. You and I both know that true choice is not supported bu teachers groups, because it would be downfall of many public school systems and the riddance of many poor or mediocre teachers. The car analogy your propound is only class welfare, something the unions are great at. You and I both know that the school system is harmed by poor parenting as much as poort teaching and experiements in teaching.i am for the public school systems. Quit being an apologist for crappy teachers and the union and recognize the problems within.If not, more and more people with the means to do so will bail, and leave the sytem even more in disarray. Oh by the way, Wichita isn’t the only school system in the state.
Public schools are very nearly a monopoly. They have a monopoly on the teax dollars that go towards education. No other schools have the right to extract money by force.
They have a monopoly on students that will be enforced by police power, unless the family has the means to provide alternative education.
Even if a family can afford an alternative to the public schools, they then have to pay twice: once for something they can’t use, and then again for something they can use.
Why the need for a monopoly backed by the power of the state, Apophis?
It’s not just that some families don’t “like” their local public schools. Many thinking people are appaled by the condition of our public schools and make large personal sacrifices to send their children somewhere else.
What reforms public schools submit to are slow in their process and usually ineffective.
The Kansas school finance lawsuit (Montoy v. State) took, I think, about seven or more years to produce an increase in funding. Add maybe a year or two more for these funding changes to have their effect (if that effect is indeed positive), and a child that entered school as that lawsuit ws filed might enjoy just a few years of its benefit.
Again, that’s if that benefit is real. No doubt the public education bureaucracy is thrilled with the extra money, but their track record of producing results is poor.
LJ……………if you cannot or will not cite specific instances where the union has “protected” poor teachers than shut the f*** up. The whole “privacy” thing is just a cop-out. You can’t cite any cases because you have NOTHING, just right-wing rhetoric.
Due Process Rights are not the same as tenure, sorry to tell you. If you don’t believe me call Ed Raymond, Asst. Sup. for Human Resources –USD 259. He can set you straight.
When you spew the “class warfare” line, you clearly show your true colors. Choice is choice………..there is always a price.
To be clear, I dislike less than competent teachers as much as you do. I do stand beside the union, any union for that matter. Unions are what have made the middle class a powerful force in this country. Unrestricted capitalism is really contrary to what our fathers founding intended with for republic. Those of you who favor business to do the right thing are just fools.
Stop trying to villianize unions and support the good things they do for the working man (and woman). Oh, bye the way LJ, the Wichita School District is who I pay my taxes to and so that the district I am most concerned with at this point in time.
Anonymous……….sometimes a “monopoly” is what is in the best interest of society in general. Suppose there wasn’t a “monopoly” on electrical service. How many power lines and poles would one see? Your almighty “market” cannpt cure everything. Face it Anonymous, you HATE community schools. Admit it!
Apophis,You just proved yourself to be a union hack. Your attempt to identify me with the right wing is an attempt at intimidation, and I really don;t care. Same with the shut the f*** up. wow, how intelligent, How inspiring. Just more plain BS is what it is. How did I favor business? Ha. Just more union bullshit. I will NEVER support unions as long as they protect the incompetent and the down right lazy, just as I don;t support the AMA because they don;t rightly police BS doctors. Has nothing to do with right wing/left wing bs. Don;t give me the union rhetoric, I ‘ve heard it a hundred times. It’s still nothing but rhetoric. BUt then, I don;t need a union to protect my job, my education, my work ethic and skills do that. That said, I don’t care if people unionize. I don;t care if they sell their soul to the devil. I just want the unions, including the teachers union, to quit aiding and abetting the incompetent and the lazy.And i’m glad toknow the “privacy” thing is a cop-out in your words, it tells me even more about you. You don;t care about privacy rights if it inteferes with your little tirade.just be honest.
Uh oh, Apophis is using analogy to make his points again. I think he’s trying to simplify something that is complex. :D
a “union hack”…………well, thank you.
lj……….I certainly don’t need a union to protect MY job. I belong because it is the organization representing MY profession. Screw you ***hole.
wow. Apophis calling me names. I guess that must because he is a professional. HAHAHAHA
Do you rightwingers really hatethe concept of “due process” some much?
if the shoe fits lj………
What brain dead moron would willingly send their children to a public school????????
Apophis-
You make me laugh.
lj……….you nauseate me.
I’m going to the pool now.
Apophis-Don;t get too dep in the water. The pressure or the chlorine may make you vomit if you are already nauseated.
I don’t think that anyone can make a reasonable argument that a monopoly on the provision of electricity and a monopoly on the provision of education are analogous.
And yes, Apophis, I do hate public schools! You say that as though you were delivering an insult.
People who love liberty and freedom detest public schools! I thought that was clear.
Now, what is a “community” school?
One more time for Apophis sake
“I don’t care if people unionize. I don;t care if they sell their soul to the devil. I just want the unions, including the teachers union, to quit aiding and abetting the incompetent and the lazy.”
“People who love liberty and freedom detest public schools! I thought that was clear.”
this about the MOST STUPID comment I have ever seen posted here. lol lol lol lol lol
A “community school” is just what it implies…….a school that serves every child in a community. I suppose that is difficult for you to understand isn’t it?
People who love liberty and freedom detest public schools! I thought that was clear.
Posted by: anonymous | June 12, 2007 at 03:49 PM
What? You are kidding, right?
Apophis doesn’t care for other views. It’s his view and the wrong view. :D
“I don’t care if people unionize. I don;t care if they sell their soul to the devil. I just want the unions, including the teachers union, to quit aiding and abetting the incompetent and the lazy.”
This has to be the 2nd most STUPID I’ve seen posted on this blog!
“Aiding and abetting………….”………..this is priceless…..lol lol lol
You all think that government coercion is the best way to provide education?
How are community schools “government coercion”?
Apophis,
If you haven;t seen this, you have led a vey sheltered life. So be it. Far from me to try and teach the unteachable, or get someone to take off their rose colored glasses. Hurray for you. Keep believing it. You know it’s true.
Anonymous-
To believe that the government schools need work, or that maybe there are alternatives, does not equal hating governmental schools. They do a monumental task, their problems notwithstanding
lj………..what exactly are “government schools”?
Apophis-
Don’t you know? Very well, Iwill educate you. Government schools or governmental schools are those schools that are primarily run by the state or local government, and have their financing come primarily from tax dollars. They ikely are governed by a body with the initals USD in front of it.
USD as in Unified School District
gee lj………..you make your “government schools” sound bad. Why is that?
a “union hack”…………well, thank you.
Posted by: Apophis | June 12, 2007 at 03:38
Definiton of “hack” from Dictionary.com
1. a person, as an artist or writer, who exploits, for money, his or her creative ability or training in the production of dull, unimaginative, and trite work; one who produces banal and mediocre work in the hope of gaining commercial success in the arts: As a painter, he was little more than a hack.
2. a professional who renounces or surrenders individual independence, integrity, belief, etc., in return for money or other reward in the performance of a task normally thought of as involving a strong personal commitment: a political hack.
3. a writer who works on the staff of a publisher at a dull or routine task; someone who works as a literary drudge:
Well, it the shoe fits
gee lj………..you make your “government schools” sound bad. Why is that?
Posted by: Apophis | June 12, 2007 at 04:10 PM
Anonymous-
To believe that the government schools need work, or that maybe there are alternatives, does not equal hating governmental schools. They do a monumental task, their problems notwithstanding
Posted by: littlejohn | June 12, 2007 at 04:01 PM
I see.
There are many, many good teachers that want nothing but the best for their students, Just be honest.
Posted by: littlejohn | June 12, 2007 at 12:50 PM
I see
The failures of the school system have two main causes.
1) teachers and teachers unions who think no teacher is bad enough to be fired
2) Parents who think no student is bad enough to be disciplined or held back
I see
1) is inaccurate
2) is ptrety much the truth
a “union hack”…………well, thank you.
Screw you ***hole.
Posted by: Apophis | June 12, 2007 at 03:38 PM
“LJ……………if you cannot or will not cite specific instances where the union has “protected” poor teachers than shut the f*** up.”
“The whole “privacy” thing is just a cop-out. You can’t cite any cases because you have NOTHING, just right-wing rhetoric.”
“LJ….take issue if you want. You really don’t know what you are talking about. ”
I see.
I hope to god Apophis isn’t one of my teachers.
I have teacher friends who know the problems, and they don’t try to sugar coat it.
One of my friends is a SPED teacher, and she’s been in districts that try to block all the services they can. She’s now in a district that has gone above and beyond. If they can do it with the same resources, I’m sure the others could too.
THAT is why I say the money isn’t the biggest issue. It’s where they want to spend the money.
pmom……………….you would be FORTUNATE to have me as one of our teachers.
Which district do you claim attempts to “block” services? If you can’t cite specific districts, don’t spread innuendos.
lj………………catchy little posts…………I hope copy/paste bolsters your self-esteem, it sure doesn’t show that you have anything new to add to the conversation of the thread.
Obviously I can’t say WHICH district bonehead, are you going to tell me which district you work for? Didn’t think so. I’m not about to tell you which district I live in.
pmom, you’re in the catbird seat as far as your kids’ education. You can call an IEP conference anytime you want to change the program. Sure, the schools can bitch and moan, but when push comes to shove they’re required to provide a *free, appropriate* education for your child.
(Been there, doing that – with 3 kids on IEPs. Hang in there!)
If you had bothered to read bit earlier posts on this thread you would have read that I am in Wichita. That being said, we deal with a HUGE number of SPED students in this district so I think I do know a little about the bureaucracy.
CSA……….I too have had children in school with an IEP. We as parents do have significant rights, however there a number of realities that we must recognize as parents/educators. Finite resources mean finite services.
apophis, I’d be proud to have you teach my kids! You’re committed to teaching science as it should be taught – complete with genuine critical thinking, not the kind advocated by our not-so-dearly-departed KSBE.
***********************Back on topic . . .
Barnett & Moran are correct that we’re diving toward mediocrity. In the shuffle to get all kids to achieve at the ‘proficient’ level, the gifted & talented kids get left behind. Yes, left behind, because the challenging classes are cancelled to provide remedial classes for those who need it.
Can we have it both ways? Is it possible to get *all* kids to achieve(at least) some minimum competency without ignoring the ones at the top end of the spectrum?
******************
Someone here compared NAEP results to Kansas’ state assessment results. One way to fix that would be to have a nationalized curriculum like all the other developed, industrialized countries in the world. Yep, like the ones who regularly kick our butts on TIMMS, etc.
Kids at the top getting left behind?
Isn’t that an oxymoron? :)
That comment shows how ignorant you are of the entire NCLB fiasco repuke.
lj………………catchy little posts…………I hope copy/paste bolsters your self-esteem,
Posted by: Apophis | June 12, 2007 at 08:54 PM
Thanks.
Don’t need self esteem, I got plenty of self worth.
CSA, I”m aware that I’m supposed to be an intergral part of the IEP team, however, this past year I filed a formal complaint with 9 points of violations of my child’s rights. The inspector guy seemed like he was going to rule in our favor. Didn’t happen, he sided with the school on all points.
Ignored the other school’s reports, the mental health reports, the doctor’s reports and sided with the ‘assessment’ the school put forth.
However, they’ve suddenly changed their whole course with my son and giving him the things I was asking for to begin with. So I don’t know if that inspector told them to ship up but gave them a pass or what- but the school still maintains their assessments are correct…go figure. If their assessment was correct, there’d be no validation for sped services in the first place.
And I wasn’t asking for too much either Apophis- stop acting like we want too much, these are basic fundamental SPED things.
All I know is that if they act like idiots again, I’ll skip the formal complaint and go directly to due process.
In your warped mind lj
Evidently Apophis left his humorous self at the door. :)
See- like all little union hacks, or political hacks, or any other sheep, you refuse to see anything but the hind end of the union. So , without fail, you resort to name calling and personal insults with someone who disagrees with you. I may have a warped mind in your opinion, but at least it’s my own.
pmom………..come step into my shoes for awhile with parent who can’t handle parenting all of the sudden thinks their kid is SPED. We go through all the observations, strategies, documentation and testing………..and guess what? They do not qualify……….what happens next?………let’s get them on a 504 plan………all the while eating up time and resources. Maybe some of the responsibility for a child’s learning should fall on the student and their parents?
I would never suggest that a child with a real need be denied services, but you obviously don’t see how the system is abused here in a district of 49,000 students. A significant percentage of the local budget is tied into SPED. The FEDS have never financed IDEA at the level they originally promised.
lj…………are showing your true colors again. Your HATRED of unions is obvious. I am far from a follower sir.
“Insults and name calling”……….are you so weak that you are offended by some colorful language? Here’s an idea lj, if I OFFEND you don’t respond to my posts.
If you ever doubt why you shouldn’t send your kid to government schools. Just look at how the only government ‘educator’ in this thread treats those who disagree with him. Can you imagine what such a person would do to a child asking questions?
Paraphrasing the accurate post made by someone earlier:
An oxy-moron is repuke on a respirator.
Apophis-You couldn’t even begin to meaningfully offend me. The fact that as an educator you resort so easily to coarse and “colorful” language offends me. The fact that as an educator you resort so quicly to name calling and pesonal insults offends me. The fact than as an educator you equate pointing out problems with something equates to “hate” offends me. You sir, do not offend me, nor can any of the language of putdowns you may possibly come up with. As I said, I have plenty of self worth. Tiny minds like yours make little difference. What does offend me is the fact that you can claim to be an educator.
As a person with many friends and family as part of the education system, and as teachers, your assertions and behavior is an affront to their profession
Chas,
That was mine. :) You’re welcome to use it, royalty-free.
Apophis, you should know as long as I have been on this board, my two children certainly do qualify for SPED under ANY strict interpretation of what SPED is designed for- I have no doubt that some parents may try to abuse that. But do not put me into that category.
The bottom line, the school was not at all willing to provide FAPE for my children under what was due them, even minor things. Don’t get me wrong, I do get the stress teachers are under, but stop acting like the problem is all the parent’s fault as well.
I would like to see more funding, I agree that it is underfunded, but I don’t think it’s so severe that they can’t provide the services as other districts do.
And my daughter, she passed this year ONLY because they went and made special changes for her…changes I wasn’t happy about, but since they had dropped the ball all year long, they had to do something. They knew full well it was their own faults, and the superintendent was there during that IEP as I had requested he come, and he praised me for what I was doing at home to try to help the situation. This is the same guy who yelled at me on the phone a few months earlier over the formal complaint with my son.
The problem with no child left behind is that it’s focus is strictly on testing, which doesn’t reflect preparing students for real life, even college. A trend has begun (I’ve been to the inservices) where we are teaching students ‘to the test’. Because of this heavy emphasis on testing we are no longer as concernced with teaching the subjects, we are mostly concerned with rushing to get them “test well” The student still doesn’t come out the other end knowing who the U.S. fought in the revolutionary war.
This leads to the education leaders thinking, well, oh my, now we need more time in the basic subjects, and students in many cases are booked for two math classes, two language arts classes a day. This leads to them getting burnt out, and not making any progress. It also detracts from other subjects equally as important, music, art, gym, all of which have evidence supporting their raising of academic achievment. In the Wichita school district it was decided to cut 5th grade band out of the program, putting Wichita students at a serious disadvantage to outlying schools.
Come on people quiet shouting at each other, calling people names and saying that the if you support the public schools you are the enemy of liberty. Not all of us can afford private school, or have parents patient enough for home school.I am where I am today, an honors graduate, and an accomplished teacher because of public schools, now I am doing everything that I can to give back, including spending most of my summer preparing, and spending much more than 8-3 everyday in the classroom.
That all being said, looking at Apophis’ comments I can understand how people would get a negative view of teachers. I understand that you must work under difficult conditions, that there are a lot of stresses, people telling you from all sides how to do you job that really have no idea what they are talking about. I’m sure that you are a good teacher in the classroom, and do everything in your power to teach students your subjects.
But could you try being less of a spoiled little brat on the WEBlog? Try defending your positions with out immeadiatly taking the defensive, explain them calmly, and maybe people will listen to you.
“…we are no longer as concernced with teaching the subjects, we are mostly concerned with rushing to get them “test well”
Interesting way of encapsulating blame there teacher.
I didn’t take band until the 8th grade as do many kids do. It never affected my grades in the least.
In my opinion, the reason that children seem like they cannot be educated under current or past standards is the move towards secularism. No, it’s not another Conservative Yahoo reason, it’s based on sound reasoning.
When I went to Sunday School and Church as a child, we were taught lessons and we were taught to study for our lessons. We were also taught music. That is, what the certain aspects of music was; notes, bass, treble, rests, chorus, stanzas, harmony, history of the song and etc.
As this country has become more secular, the education that occurs on the seventh day (could be Saturday as well) is lost.
It was also a time we saw our teachers as human beings as they worshiped with us. Parents knew the teachers and teachers knew the parents because both talked to each other at the Church and its various functions.
It taught the “wiggle worms” how to be still during times of worship. I never saw a child discipline problem where the child had to be sent to a detention hall for the church (there weren’t any.)
Having moral values taught to children back then made it harder to give lame excuses to teachers who knew them from church as they knew that invalid excuses were really lies. The children were educated in Church that it is a sin to lie and were taught lessons why lying is in the end wrong.
So teacher, it is most likely not all your fault, so don’t take it too hard.
However, I must raise an eyebrow at the statement you wrote as it appears that the goals set for education have been artificially lowered by teacher expectations of what they are trying to achieve.
That is, to satisfy the test requirements or to educate the child.
Teacher………….I appreciate your posts. Much of what you say has merit. BUT, you have a misconception that I actually care what people think of me or other members of our profession. I have seen few posts from you on this blog and therefore I would have to deduce that you aren’t too familiar with the “regulars” here. The anti-public education ideologues cannot be swayed in their opinion no matter how cordial I might be. They are so encased in their dogma that they never see the benefits of public education. All they see is the negative.
Look at the original topic of the thread, it has degraded from looking at the mediocrity caused by NCLB to openly attacking public education. Call me a spoiled brat, a union hack, or just a plain a**hole if you want; I will defend the profession at all costs. If that means I need to go on the offensive, well that’s fine with me too. I can be as diplomatic or as coarse as the situation dictates. The fact is that I am a public education activist and the ends justifies the means.
For those of you who think my posts project my abilities in the classroom or stress level you are making asinine inferences. I have 19 years in the classroom and am recognized as highly proficient educator. I give my time outside the school day doing what is needed promote our profession. I work on numerous committees and commissions at the local and state levels. My job doesn’t necessarily stress me all that much; we all have a bad day every now and then. It goes with the territory. I do not let the insane requirements of NCLB bother me for a number of reasons. First, I was not hired to “teach to the test”. I was hired to teach Science. Second, NCLB is not meant to improve education. It was meant to discredit public education and channel public tax dollars into the private, religious and business sectors. I will not play that game. If all teachers provide differentiated instruction and a positive education environment, students who choose to succeed WILL succeed.
It really doesn’t come down to a single test score. If you think it does, then you have bought into George W. Bush’s rhetoric. Not I!
republican sez, “In my opinion, the reason that children seem like they cannot be educated under current or past standards is the move towards secularism.”
Got any research data to back up this claim? Anecdotes don’t cut it, and ‘reason’ insists that the earth is the center of the universe.
Second, what is a “move towards secularism?” The fact that church attendance is down? That schools don’t force kids to pray anymore?
Keep in mind that correlation isn’t the same as causation.
Correlation is used all the time to form opinion. If you want to say that it isn’t a cause CSA, then it is up to you to disprove it. I didn’t make the assertion that my premise was incorrect, you did.
It is up to you CSA, to show factually, that I am wrong about my opinion.
Just saying something is wrong doesn’t cut it. Prove it.
“I didn’t take band until the 8th grade as do many kids do. It never affected my grades in the least.”For your information, I have also taught sunday school for many years, Republican. But the point of sunday school is not to teach band or music, and if you think that a sufficient music education can be delivered with a suffiecent religious education in merely on hour per week, you are more delerious than I thought.If you began band in eighth grade you would have been at a sore disadvantage. In eighth grade I was playing contest level music and could play better than alot of eighth graders… But I’m sure that you had fun with “mary had a little lamb” as the penical of your musical experience.
As for teachers not teaching morals any more, give me a break. One of the most important things that we can teach in ensembles is life skills- responsiblity to your self and people around you.
Also, just because you have taught sunday school, doesn’t make you a “teacher”, per say. You are dealing with looking after kids for ONE HOUR a week. Congratulations on keeping quiet for that huge amount of time. I am so proud of you.
And here is the biggest fallacy in your argument, Republican. You reveal in your post that you main concern is not for testing, or standards in education. It is back to that lack of morals in schools. Find me a classroom in Wichita that doesn’t have a set of rules posted or stated otherwise that include not lying, cheating, ect. Those are morals! IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE CHURCH AND PARENT to give the reasoning and the purpose behind those morals, NOT THE SCHOOL!!!!!
So don’t take it to hard, Republican. It’s not your fault that your entire argument was baseless and had no grounding in reality. But then again, I had the advantage of learning critical thinking skills in my public schools…
teacher,
Actually in my sophomore year, I came in second State finals for trumpet. Not bad for playing “Mary had a little lamb” huh?
Having rules posted in school is a far cry from having your conduct measured and evaluated by peers on the Sabbath. Or do you think that “Do not Litter” signs are effective twenty feet past the sign?
Morals and conduct in the schools is a problem in today’s schools. I don’t believe I assigned that responsibility to the schools. I assigned the moral decline to less people attending church, which by the way, also includes teachers.
There are fewer teachers in church than there were many years ago. Their lack of being known in their faith groups, tends to harden them against values and familiarity with the parents.
For a teacher, you are surely quick to judge opinion; and for your experience as a former Sunday School teacher, how is that “splinter in your eye” doing?
Point out where I said that my “main concern is not for testing, or standards in education.”
What I posted was my opinion on “one” of the reasons there has been a decline in the education process.
BTW, our minister of music had a PhD in Music theory and taught at the local university. I’m pretty sure what he taught us was from competence and skillful methods.
Republican, your responses don’t match the arguments.
“Having rules posted in school is a far cry from having your conduct measured and evaluated by peers on the Sabbath. Or do you think that “Do not Litter” signs are effective twenty feet past the sign?”
Read my post, Republican. I said specifically that morals should be reenforced at home and at church. It is the parent’s responsibility, I can’t make my students go to church!
“Morals and conduct in the schools is a problem in today’s schools. I don’t believe I assigned that responsibility to the schools. I assigned the moral decline to less people attending church, which by the way, also includes teachers.”Several responses:1) If you don’t assign responsiblity to the schools why are you consistently attacking teachers and education through out this post? Once again, it is revealed that your arguments have nothing to do with public education. It has to do with moral failures IN THE HOME.2) I can’t defend other teachers. I can say that I attend church and am a major part of what goes on there. I can only answer for myself..3) All we can do as teachers is lay down the rules, and give reasons why they should be followed based on common good (think C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity) There are more behavior problems, it’s because in a large part parents don’t teach morals AT HOME.
“There are fewer teachers in church than there were many years ago. Their lack of being known in their faith groups, tends to harden them against values and familiarity with the parents.”
No numbers, just speculation. You cannot prove this. I work in a small district, but almost all of the teachers attend various churches in town. This is a baseless acuasation.
“For a teacher, you are surely quick to judge opinion; and for your experience as a former Sunday School teacher, how is that “splinter in your eye” doing?”
I don’t understand this argument. I am proud of my experience as a sunday school teacher, and it has given me, and continues to give me valuable experience and resource to draw upon as a teacher.
“Point out where I said that my “main concern is not for testing, or standards in education.”
That was your whole argument, sir, and continues to be. You are not talking about methods for improving testing or scores, you are talking about a lapse in morals WHICH STARTS AT HOME AND CHURCH!
“BTW, our minister of music had a PhD in Music theory and taught at the local university. I’m pretty sure what he taught us was from competence and skillful methods.”
Fine, but you are not responding to my argument! I was saying that one hour a week combined religious, music, whatever else you are including education is not enough! You need more music education than that.
By the way, congratulations on your experience as a trumpet player in high school. It sounds like you had some good teachers. I have started students at older ages as a private teacher, and I always shoot to have that same kind of success. I can say that it is much more effective as a whole to start students at a younger age.
As I stated in an earlier post teacher, the ideolouges like Repuke do not respond to reasonable discourse. You have two choices: engage them virulently or “just walk on by”.
You’re probably right, Apophis. I just feel like I have to try…
teacher,
Are you sure about one hour per week? I mean surely you have heard of choir practice, evening services, Wednesday night services, holiday events and performances done else where (like nursing homes,); holiday events requires longer practice times and rehearsals.
I never said you should make your school kids go to church. What I have said and have always implied that our society as a whole has gone secular which includes teachers, parents and children.
What part of the above observation and opinion do you not understand?
Thanks for the compliment on my experience playing the trumpet. I was tutored by the first chairs of the high school band when I first started. One of them, a senior had won state and was fundamentally sound on music “sight” reading.
I took Doc Severson’s course by record and book (the old tonite show band leader.) I also played the trumpet in church which also helped me gain confidence as well as working with the adult musicians that played.
The Band Director stated that I had a natural armature and encouraged me daily. We had nice, sound proof practice rooms and lots of sheet music in which to practice.
BTW, Apophis stating that I don’t participate in reasonable discourse is laughable. Apophis is the first to try to discredit by ad hominem when he doesn’t like a person with a differing opinion.
Repuke does not participate in reasonable discourse.
He posts lies using a stolen nic.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_28.html#comment-71041282
You mentioned specifically sunday school, so I was basing this off of that. I don’t need to defend how much time I spend in church, that’s between me and God, but rest assured I have heard of Wednesday night rehersals.
“I never said you should make your school kids go to church. What I have said and have always implied that our society as a whole has gone secular which includes teachers, parents and children.”
I understand this argument, and the frustration with the world as a whole that it implies. I could argue that society goes through cycles of secular and religious, consider our founding fathers, who were at their core secular, and products of the enlightenment. That era was followed by the great awakening, a period of a high amount of religion in our society.
While your argument may be justified, it doesn’t create a real plan for helping our public schools, and it doesn’t present a rational behind NCLB. The only way you can change society is one person at a time, through church and revival. A more moral society is a result of individual change. I would simply argue that NCLB isn’t the most effective tool in bringing about improvements in education (I agree that we should always be looking for ways to improve)
I hope you still play trumpet, it sounds like you enjoyed it. Let me just say that not every student is a natural, as you state that you are. (the word is embouchure, by the way.) A far majority of students need to start from a younger age, and be taught more manually. That’s all that I am saying. The “mary had a little lamb” was a cheap shot, but I enjoyed it anyway.
republican, YOU’RE the one who asserted “In my opinion, the reason that children seem like they cannot be educated under current or past standards is the move towards secularism.”
Evidence or retraction – do you have the balls to do either?
teacher,
You’re right about the term, 40+ years ago clouds the memory.
I gave up the trumpet about the time I went to college. “Doc’s Holiday” (Severson’s version of Bugler’s Holiday”) was the last piece I remember playing. Maybe some Alpert songs somewhere along in there too. :)
CSA,
Secularism can also means one holds certain political views of I should say ideologies.
It is within those views that progressive secularists have banded together to resist any ideas that are not their own and totally reject ideas that originate by any means those with conventional views that God provides wisdom not the State.
Resistance or rejection of ideas in a free society does not embrace a society who share values and methodologies on how to do things.
As the U.S. has become more secular, shared values are only okay as long as you don’t display, mention or talk about them in public institutions, such as schools for instance.
This “walling off” has caused more than turmoil, it has led classrooms to become sterile environments where growth is encouraged, but increasingly harder to accomplish as they are missing an ingredient that makes up the society.
This in turn, makes educators isolationists trying to exist in a world totally design by human reason along. They are finding out that they are failing in so many respects because they cannot identify the fault of the matter so lash out at anyone who they think might contaminate their environment by whatever means.
By their own demise, they have given up on their own basic philosophy of well-reasoned approaches to resolving matters of education and have replaced it with resistance and intolerance of those outside of their defined world.
Yes CSA, I can argue the matter, but the problem is, will you and others listen?
Or have you simply walled off the reality of the world and become self insulated from even the simplest of suggestions.
To purport topical victory on the premise of ideology alone is not only futile, but it regulates the originator’s mind into one of stagnant thinking.
Education was meant to be in my opinion a means of thought and expression where guides (teachers)funnel these into the various disciplines we call subjects. The implication that a very large portion of our society is irrelevant is a mechanism for seeking blame and is erroneous assignment.
I learned the sciences and maths in the height of religious awareness and did not suffer in any degree from a lack of proper education because of my views.
During that time, there was mutual respect and tolerance of one’s faith or non-faith. The classroom continued and all went well.
Now that the secularists have isolated themselves, they are finding the task of educating difficult as they stand alone with out the benefit of the total integration of their society.
Our schools have transformed from the racially segregated into racially integrated. Yet, they now have segregated an even larger portion of their society and have become yet again become another form of segregationists with unyielding stances on how things should be done in “their” world.
So you see CSA I do have the moral courage and conviction to present my argument or as you wrote in the more juvenile manner, the “balls” to do so.
Republican, you haven’t provided any *evidence* whatsoever.
All I’m asking you to do is to produce evidence to support your arguments. Just hard numbers from credible sources that explicitly support your point. That’s it, plain and simple.
If this secularism – as you define it – is such a big problem, one would think that plenty of research studies exist to support your contention.
Hey, we’re all entitled to our own opinions – if you can’t back yours up with evidence, just admit it and go on.
How does one approach that CSA?
From what parameters does one measure faith as it applies to the world?
As I previously mentioned, you and others like you with your secular ideology have isolated themselves from any view but their own.
You are trying to get me to do a science study on the beauty of man as it pertains to his relationship with God.
If you will recall when the rolls were reversed in old Europe, the scientists who claimed knowledge outside of the church were declared heretics. Using my terms, the Church was acting of knowledge segregationists.
Now, you are approaching the matter in the same light. Yoursegregationist views are forbidding me from participating in this great experiment of life by restricting where and what I can say.
If you want me to admit that faith cannot be backed up with man-made evidence, then I admit it.
However, the premise of your question is based on a square wheel and that doesn’t roll properly with logic nor reason.
“During that time, there was mutual respect and tolerance of one’s faith or non-faith. The classroom continued and all went well.”How many non-Christians were in your class Repub? Different times call for different measures. Did you have classmates that were Wiccan or were Christian and believe strongly that Halloween was a holiday for the Devil and should not be celebrated in school?
No Wiccans that I recall brian. I don’t think anyone had even heard of a Wiccan back then, except those following the cult faith.
I would say about half the class were Protestant, Catholic and we had one Buddhist.
I’m not sure how to answer your last question as it is a loaded question begging for a particular answer.
The usual event we did with kids my age during Halloween was to walk around carrying two containers. One was for candy and the other was a small cardboard coin box for UNICEF.
There were also events at the grammar school that had carnival type fun, no rides just the usual fishing for prizes and spinning wheels of fortune.
It was normal activity for kids that age.
However, most parents and kids agreed that once you entered junior high school (back then, grades 7-9,) you no longer did “kid” stuff such as trick or treating. I did however have the task of carrying the flashlight and being the designated safety monitor for younger kids who wanted to do so. :)
Apohis,
My spouse and I didn’t come here for the money. It was because my spouse wanted to CREATE SOMETHING BETTER THAN EXISTED, and I supported it. Our inflation-adjusted family income is LOWER than it was fifteen years ago.
Unionization was a pragmatic 20th century industrial economy concept. It was devised to work with industrial age capitalists, to get for workers a “better share” of industrialist capitalists’ money-generating schemes.
This doesn’t work in education, because you’re accepting as a given the labor-cost-minimization industrialism construct. Play that game, and you get low-income-value students.
Look at facts. I opened the thread by identifying KBOE’s decision to recruit sub-2.5 GPA teachers. This is poisoning Kansas’s young-talent well. Dumb, da dumb dumb, dumb.
At the middle school level, no real teacher would accept teaching 150+ students a day in 55 minute classes. To do this means teachers have bought into the industrial capitalists’ underproductive mass-labor scheme, and unionists who buy into this are trying to get what they can for themselves in this atrocious anti-teaching/ anti-student-learning scam.
You are essentially saying, within a student-failure scheme, “We’re doing the best we can.” Why aren’t you protesting for a 40-student maximum to enable teachers to connect with their students so that teachers can do the REAL BEST THEY CAN?
Forty students is a lot for one single teacher to connect with.
Apophis, you’re alienating pmom, who is a small-d democrat. Your problem is you’re serving elitist capitalists who want to be really rich, who don’t care if most of the population surrounding them is really poor.
If this isn’t true, just show us that you’ve lobbied for 40-student middle school teacher loads.
Oh, repub, you’re making a lot of assumptions about my worldview. You don’t know squat about it . . .
Once more . . . you stated, “the reason that children seem like they cannot be educated under current or past standards is the move towards secularism.”
Not A reason, but THE reason.
All you had to do was to provide some sort of data that increased secularism – as you define it – has directly caused kids to learn less.
I didn’t ask you to ‘prove’ faith using science or anything like that. It’s not kosher to put words in my mouth, capisce?
I just asked you to back up your statement with something other than anecdotes or conjecture . . .
Is it too much for you to admit you goofed? Prov. 11:2
The “Blank One” has never been married and has no children, so his opinion on this topic is suspect. My three children and my granddaughter are a product of public schools and I am thankful that they received (and are receiving) a “secular” education. Religion or religious thought has no place in public schools.
The education that a child receives is largely a product of the effort they and their parents put into it. If parents want their children to receive a non-secular education, they should place them in a private school and/or have them learn religion in church.
Interesting take on Apophis’ supposed selling-out to capitalist pigs – or whatever your phrasing was, MPS.
Let’s see . . . having Apophis teach 40 students in one day instead of 155 means his school would have to employ 4 times as many teachers. The largest part of most districts’ budgets is personnel. Not that more administrators would be needed, or district-wide personnel, so let’s assume only a tripling of personnel costs instead of a flat quadrupling. How many taxpayers will be voting for that option?
MPS, what are your ideas for lobbying to public to approve a gigantic tax increase/bond issue that would be needed under your ideas? Keep in mind, I think the 40-student limit is a great idea . . . as is your proposal waaaay earlier in the thread for restricting the teaching profession to those college students who have a 3.75+ GPA.
But again, where does the money come from to pay for these innovations? I’m not poking at you with this – what are your ideas?
CSA,
What part of this statement didn’t you understand?
“If you want me to admit that faith cannot be backed up with man-made evidence, then I admit it.”
If you are a poor underpaid and overworked teacher with 40 kids per class, then why don’t you move to a new district, go to a private school, or change your career paths?
If you are so great, then you can find a better job somewhere. Who is tying you to an underpaid and overworked job?
Ah, repub, I get it.
It’s your “faith” that tells you that some perceived decline in kids’ learning is due to secularism.
Sure, I agree faith doesn’t need scientific backing. No problem! Just don’t expect anyone to accept your factually-deficient statement as gospel.
HAND!
Hey, wait a second Max. MPS was ADVOCATING that 40 students a day would be an ideal setting. I wouldn’t disagree with him on that. It is also totally unrealistic.
MPS……….As for the GPA issue, maybe would should actually have the facts about this change: “The 2.5 GPA requirement for an initial teaching license is no longer in effect. [This was removed because other assessment requirements are in place.]“. I point out that this was an elected KBOE decision. The teachers had nothing to do with this.
Doc, I know you have utter contempt for the teacher’s unions. That is fine, but your opinion is just that…….an opinion. The fact of the matter is that the NEA is the voice of progressive reform in education. You’d be better off working with us than against us. Here’s why……..we’re over 3 million strong and we are not going away.
Lastly Doc, if I am “alienating pmom”…………well sh** happens. I’m not here to be anyone’s buddy.
CSA,
Repuke also seems to base his opinions on hate, not facts. And he cannot admit to posting something incorrect.
The New Orleans levees failed due to design and construction flaws. But Repuke seems to hate the Sierra Club — so he lies, and blames them.
Repuke insists that the peer-reviewed climate science done worldwide is invalid — because every few years, the U.N. and W.M.O. compile the reports — and he hates the U.N..
Repuke insisted that the Airborne Laser uses megawatt-class tracking lasers, when his own link says they’re kilowatt-class.
CSA,
of course costs would be far higher. That’s the thing about the industrialist capitalist ideology: minimize cost.
It’s the same reason we are enslaved by foreign oil: it’s the cheapest energy source. Which isn’t the same as being the best energy source.
Cheap isn’t best. Why do you think that smart people are buying private education? They pay taxes–mostly well-above-average property taxes–and let these go with no benefit to their own children, and then pay private tuition? They want something better than baseline-cheap.
On public education expenses, we could do better by paying well-educated teachers more and eliminating bloated administrators’ overhead. If you want to buy into “Managers deserve more money than workers”, then you’ve been trapped by the capitalists’ phony scam.
Look at professional sports: the top athletes make more than the coaches. In top-tier research universities, there are professors in science and engineering who make more than university presidents.
Kansans can’t conceive of “mere” professors making $300,00+ annually. This hapens elswhere. Knowledge pays well.
Should some public school teachers make more than principals? Absolutely. The idea that the only way to make more money is to move “up” from teaching to administration is an obsolete industrial-age precept.
Look at your own USD 259 superintendent. He thinks that International Baccalaureate courses are more rigorous than Advanced Placement courses. Does he base this assertion on taking IB courses or AP courses, and personally evalutating them? No, because he never qualified for either.
He has pontificated that Kansas “ranks in the top 10″ on the ACT, which is totally false, but more importantly, his district lowers the state average. He’s doing a nice job floating on hot air of other districts’ accomplishments.
There are some Wichita teachers, who if given a responsible teaching load, should be earning a lot more than the under-educated, promoted- beyond-the-Peter Principle Rah-Rah Bloviator in Chief. Or maybe not, if you think that under-education of Wichita children is a great acompishment.
Care to elaborate on this assertion Doc?
“He has pontificated that Kansas “ranks in the top 10″ on the ACT, which is totally false”
MPS,
Higher energy efficiency is our cheapest energy “source”.
According to Oil Endgame, “the investments needed to save each barrel of oil will cost only $12 (in 2000 $)”.
cosmos so cute in his bitter stage, he can do nothing productive but attack me. I wonder if his E.L.F. friends are missing him blowing up oil pipelines and stuff? :)
Blank name,
Of course you’re absolutely right. Two-seat commuter vehicles that get 60+ mpg are easily doable. We had a 40 mpg diesel twenty years ago. According to a Popular Mechanics article last year, 100 mpg is potentially feasible.
The main issue is crash-safety but Daimler is working on a honeycomb cell frame that can cut several hundred pounds off a conventionally manufactured body, and it appears to be very strong. Daimler engineers got the idea studying the boxfish (biomimetic design is an emerging field). In so doing, they made a mock-up model of a 4-passenger vehicle that has a bluntish front end, after the fish, and were dumbfounded by its extraordinarily low Coefficient of Drag (IIRC under .15), which was due to unpredicted non-laminar-flow vortices.
On the “Top 10 ACT scores”, Mr. Brooks wrote this in late May of the year he applied for jobs in Portland and Florida, in an Eagle Op-Ed piece. I think this was 2002 IIRC. But this isn’t what ACT’s own data showed at the time, except for one year, and that year, ca. 1997, was too distant for Mr. Brooks to claim it in 2002, as Kansas’s “ranking” had fallen in the following years. More importantly, as ACT, Inc., the test-administering and data-crunching expert, has warned school administrators repeatedly, you can’t rank states’ ACT scores. Why? Because scores are strongly correlated to race. Kansas’s black and Hispanic students represent a far smaller percentage of the total Kansas ACT-taking group (under 12% combined at that time) than most other AC-administering states. Mr. Brooks, an educational system leader, should have known this, shouldn’t he?
He also claimed that Kansas had a “top four” SAT average. Correctamundo, if you don’t understand what the score average means. That’s because only 9% of Kansas college-bound students took the SAT, versus over 50% nationally, and these were Kansas’s above-average college-bound students, such as kids who were vying for scholarships that required SAT scores and kids who were looking to attend college out of state ( academic scholarship contenders and affluent students). You can’t compare the SAT averages of Kansas’s best 9% to Massachusetts’ 65% of high school graduates taking the SAT, where the former was nearly 150 points higher than the latter. That’s like company A saying its managers are among the most highly compensated in the nation, by defining for itself “managers” to mean its Vice President or higher titled executives, while other companies define “managers” to mean all those who have some supervisory duties over other workers. Mr. Brooks engaged in statistical sophistry.
Twenty-four of 25 states that used the ACT as their main college-entrance test, beat, on SAT averages, every state that used the SAT primarily. This would be mind-boggling if you didn’t know what the data actually represented.
Don’t SAT-primary states know their own “home test” as well as ACT-primary states? And didn’t interior and southern states abandon the SAT nearly 50 years ago, and devise their own test (ACT), because their kids were faring poorly relative to East and West Coast students on the SAT? The answers are “yes” to both questions.
Kansas has an above-national average PSAT. Only 30% of Kansas 11th graders take the PSAT. But 40% nationally do.
If you exclude the lower-categories of performers whose similarly-able counterparts elsewhere take these tests, of course your own averages will be higher than theirs. Duh!
How do we know that the 9% of Kansas students who take the SAT aren’t a representative sample of all Kansas students who take the ACT? Because researchers have done test-score “concordance” studies. Kansas’s ca. 1160 SAT average is “concordant” to a 25 ACT average. But Kansas’s actual ACT average is 21.6, which is concordant to an SAT average of 1020. This is how we know SAT-takers here represent a special pool. We also know this because over 80% of Kansas SAT-takers report having $70,000+ family incomes and having bachelor’s-or-higher-degreed parents. Indeed, nearly half report having a parent with a master’s or higher graduate/professional degree.
If a person in an education-leadership position is ignorant about college-admissions test performances of his state’s students, isn’t this a problem in an era in which most kids will have to attend college in order to get decent-paying jobs?
Furthermore, Brooks was cheerleading public education, and citing an ACT average performance that was significantly higher than his own district’s, which was riding the coattails, so to speak, of Johnson, Douglas, and Riley counties, whose 23+ averages are responsible for giving Kansas a 21.6 average, rather than an otherwise below-national average of ca. 20 for the rest of the state, including Wichita’s 19 average (data reported by School Reports in 2003).
Anyone who wants to read Brooks Op-Ed piece can call the Eagle, or go to the library and look it up on microfiche. The date was in the 20’s of May 2002.
I’m impressed MPS with your knowledge on the matter. Impressive post!
Apophis
I don’t support unionship in education for a number of reasons. For one thing, unions are quintessentially ADVERSARIAL entities. As a leader, you know this. You’ve said it many times: you have to fight battles against administrators, legislators and, if not the public at large, at least its indifference. You’ve said you don’t care other what people think. You’re out to win.
You can’t offend everybody, because you have to build strategic and tactical alliances, but you look at a lot of people, perhaps most people, as not mattering. They don’t have your organizational skills nor battle-relishing temperament. Maybe you descend from a long line of warriors. Maybe fighting is in your genes.
You view belligerance to be central in educating children. I’m against hard-line belligerence in education. In private schools, the working model is collegial cooperation and collaboration.
I would strongly suspect that lower-GPA teachers will be most supportive of unionization, because unionization’s primary beneficiaries are the many weak (and the few strong who get to lead them and enjoy the perquisites of being the big dogs).
Is GPA the only important thing in life? No. But, if educators create an evaluation system for students’ school performance to be measured by, and if educators want to improve students’ learning in classroom subjects,most sensible people realize, “Don’t we need teachers to have been high classroom performers?”
Remember “Top Gun”? The instructors were ace pilots.
Look, it’s okay to graduate from college with a 2.0. But if you’re going to TEACH OTHERS academic subjects, this doesn’t cut it. A 2.5 doesn’t cut it. If you want to make young people into good students, you have to have been a good student. I don’t mean the smartest student. If you worked really hard to learn things that were easy for smarter students, and you can instill hard-work habits in your students, that’s fine. But if you never learned stuff, you can’t bring your ignorance to class, without ruining young people over whom you have been given charge.
If you say, “I love these underperformers we’re gooing to be getting, because, in their weakness, they will join the union, and make me more powerful,” then you’re working against the common good.
When you accept 150+ student teaching loads, “Oh I can handle it, if I get paid for it,” you’re devaluing children. You can’t possibly know them all well as human beings. Not even a third of them.
They don’t want to be in 30-student classes, moved around every hour from classroom to classroom like cattle being moved between pastures.
We know from international studies that American kids do pretty well in 4th grade. Then they fall in middle and high school. Nobody is even asking if any part of this is due to students being with the same teacher all day in elementary, who has 6 hours to connect with 25 students and figure out what each child’s learning style, versus switching kids to MS/HS mode, where each teacher has only an hour with 30 kids, and 150+ over the 6 hour day, and can’t even think about determining what each student’s learning style is.
Apophis as a teacher who has picked for himself the latter domain, you shouldn’t be representing elementary teachers in any form or fashion as a union officer. You’re unqualified for this job. They are women, working with the same 25 kids every day. They made a wise choice: “I’ll teach the number of students I can competently handle.”
You’re in a completely different realm, by your own choice. You made the choice to teach 150 kids whom you couldn’t competently handle.
You allowed the industrial scheme ideologues to design and manufacture your job description. They screwed you, Man. And the kids they assigned to you.
I think you have a VAST amount of your diatribe totally wrong Doc Schooley.
How ’bout we meet for coffee, or whatever and get your misconceptions cleared up.
Soundsgod. I changed my nic and email address because Typad persistently denied my regular nic and email addresss, so I made a change to get on WEBlog. Send me an email on my earlier address
MPS……………I don’t have that “previous” e-mail address.
This is mine:
Apophis47@yahoo.com
We certainly wouldn’t want to hold teachers accountable for the job they do, now would we anonymous? :)
You know.. to similar standards as engineers, attorneys, physicians, dentists, police and fire…all who can be fired, sued or de-certified if they don’t meet the standards as outlined by the various credentialing or certification agencies.
No,we couldn’t do that, why that might be considered union busting. :D——————-
Tom, what a stupid post … the professionals you list have a SIGNIFICANT amount of control over their “product.” I suppose, since you list physicians, that if a cancer patient gets treatment, then the doctor must heal that person to be labeled as doing his/her job well, right? That’s what we ask our teachers to do – heal the really sick (academicwise). Teachers do the best they can with what they get – you can’t make chicken salad out of chicken ****.