Attorney General Paul Morrison announced today that he will file 19 misdemeanor charges against Wichita abortion doctor George Tiller. But they aren’t the charges that former Attorney General Phill Kline had tried to file, Associated Press reported. Morrison said that Tiller had a "technical violation" of state law by not relying on a financially and legally independent doctor in getting a second opinion on some late-term abortions. Morrison said he uncovered these violations during his office’s investigation of the case, and he said that the charges Kline had sought were "incorrect and based on a political agenda."
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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142 Comments
Not to be picky here, but isn’t going 75 in a 65 a technical violation of the law. He broke the law, he broke the law. Try not to make the excuse that they were only “technical” violations. Geesh!
Interesting. It is hard to see alternatives when your paycheck depends on you seeing reality in a certain way. You know like some of those anti-global warming types.
Will the Republicans demand the Scooter Libby treatment and suggest that Tiller be pardoned?
s”tate law by not relying on a financially and legally independent doctor in getting a second opinion on some late-term abortions.”
Gee, I wonder why that portion of the state law might be there?
No, as a Republican, I think Scooter should go to jail, as should Tiller.
Those who said Philllll was all wrong were dead wrong. Turns out there was some there there.
But the “there” wasnt part of phillllll’s sham prosecution.
Kline didnt find any “there” there.
Morrison did.
Is no one entertaining the idea that Morrison is just trying to mollify the radicals at operation rescue by lobbing a softball over the plate??
“Kline didnt find any “there” there.Morrison did.”
“There is no limit on what can be done, if you don’t care who gets the credit”.
There was, by your admission, some there there.Another plaque for me!
Anon
I hope not. If that can be shown, I would help find someone else fo his job.
Well you have to admit, based on Kline’s findings, Morrison could have just decided to drop all of the charges altogether, but he didn’t.
I’d say that’s pretty flipping fair. He was obviously thorough enough to find his own charges.
BUT at the same time, I’ll bet there isn’t a medical person in the world who- with as much scrutiny- would fare without charges too.
You people sure look funny talking out of both sides of your face.
Political Mom-
You have to think that Tiller, being under constant scrutiny, would know the law, or his attorneys would. You have to think that he either1) Didn;t care because he felt like he would never be prosecuted2) didn;t care because he was just so damned arrogant3) didn;t know, which indicates he is just so stupid.
Doctors, especially those in controversial specialties, are well aware, or hire lawyers that are well aware, of the specic laws governing that area. For whatever reason, and there could be more than I speculated, he chose to ignore the law. He should be tried and if found guilty, sent to jail.
Heheheheheh. Fleetie, real slow for ya. Kline had NO charges that could stick.
Morrison has filed charges he thinks will stick.
If you dont see that, then no wonder you have a wall full of plaques.
And I bet everyone of them says “Blog’s dumbest poster”.
But please, carry on. We need the laughs…
Oh and fleetie? You sure look funny talking out of your ass…
“Conflict of Interest” can be very important as noted above.
In the accounting field they are requiring that audit functions be separate from consulting. However, we are now seeing ‘pairs’ of accounting firms offering both by claiming to be separate.
I suspect that Tiller and the other doctor may well be culpable in this.
All of the charges against Dr. Tiller were misdemeanors. It is highly unlikely that he will serve a day in jail, despite the howls of the anti-choice crowd. A fine and maybe some probation will be the end of it here.
If he wasn’t Dr. George Tiller, there would be zero interest in this.
“If he wasn’t Dr. George Tiller, there would be zero interest in this.”
Ya think?
I think LJ, that you want to see this happen. I don’t think that Tiller did anything wrong intentionally.
He knows he’s a target, which is why Kline couldn’t find anything better on him to try to charge him with. Impeccable, nearly.
There won’t be any jail time and I seriously doubt Tiller will lose his practice at all.
There are so many docs who have done far worse and fared better.
Morrison demonstrated what has made him a successful prosecutor in charging these cases. Instead of charging crimes which would require expert testimony to prove the accuracy of the diagnoses, he chose to file charges that require no expert testimony. All Morrison has to prove is the existence of a financial interest and he has his conviction. He has completely avoided a battle of the experts and charged the case he knows he can win.
If Tiller is convicted of the charges the pressure will be squarely on the Board of Healing Arts. I’d bet the farm there isn’t another physician with a license to practice medicine in this state with double digit misdemeanor convictions for acts related to the practice of medicine. If the BOHA wants to retain any credibility with the state and the medical profression it will be forced to take some action against Dr. Tiller.
“I don’t think that Tiller did anything wrong intentionally.”
Of course not. Tiller’s a saint.
I would bet if I followed you around for years all day long, I could get you charged of something too.
Your operation rescue buddies are so crazy. If you succeed in getting abortion providers out of the area, you’re going to see how bad life is going to get for some. And I don’t want to hear your bullsheet when it happens and I point it out to you.
You’re going to have to help me out on you’re comment about life getting bad without abortion providers. Is the the Freakenomics argument that legalized abortion is the primary causative factor for lower crime rates in the 80’s to present?
Good point salpingo. One big problem with experts in the Courtroom is that the Jury gets lost in all the technical verbiage. The guy with the most colors in his PowerPoints wins over the guy with the bast facts.
I mean you’re going to see more desperate women doing desperate things. You’re going to see more dumpster babies, more dead women trying to abort themselves. You’re going to see more abused kids and suicides.
What do you base your sky is falling predictions on?
Political Mom,
Are you not for choice?
Women who are pregnant have more choices than abortion or not abortion.
They don’t have to throw the baby in the dumpster, they don’t have to try to abort themselves.
There are other options.
It is not nearly as dire as you like to make it.
I think pro-choice people think that before Roe vs Wade the alleys were full of dead women and dead dumpster babies because abortion was illegal.
What fantasy land do you live in?
There has always been abortion. Rich(er) women had it done by their doctors and they called it a D & C. Poor(er) women found abortion providers in backrooms and by-the-hour motels.
Abortion has always been a part of our society.
Today it is legal. Making it illegal will not stop it. It will just be illegal and more dangerous.
Kind of like murder? Ws Clark?
Political Mom-
While I do not like what tiller does, particularly in the late term area, if he follows the law, i have interest. I don;t picket, I don;t protest, Idon;t support those who do. Waste of time and as far as I am concerned, not wha Christians should be doing. However, if he broke the law, he broke the law. Apparently, it isn;t an isolated incident either, considering it was 19 times. don;t make apologies for him just because you believe in what service he is providing. He knew he was breaking the law. As much scrutiny as he was under, you know he knew the way to keephimself out of trouble. If the abortions were performed within the law, and I have no reason to beleive one way or the other, he should have followed procddure and the law. I bet his lawyers are furious a him right now.
That comment certainly added zero to the discussion, Nathan.
Abortion is a legal medical procedure. Murder is a crime.
Over sixty percent of the American public does NOT want to see Roe v. Wade overturned.
Get over it. Abortion will remain legal.
Perhaps the anti-choice crowd should spend more time trying to prevent unwanted pregnancies and less time trying to change a law that has the support of the majority of American.
Or don’t you believe in democracy?
“if he follows the law, i have interest”
should have read
“if he follows the law, i have little interest”
I don’t disagree that making abortion illegal would result in some women seeking illegal abortions. I do disagree that it would be as wide spread as suggested. There are a lot of people who have abortions today who would never think of having an illegal abortion or of leaving a baby in dumpster. Maybe without easy relatively inexpensive abortions available people would make better choices about birth control and sex.
Sal,I just heard one of my granddaughter’s friends say that if she needed an abortion, she had a friend who knows someone who does them illegally, because “I don’t want everybody knowing my business!”Abortion isn’t going away. but it is going back underground. When it’s your daughter who’s dead from a back-alley abortionist, maybe you’ll understand what you’re doing to kill her.
Let’s not get ahead of ourselves here. Charges have been filed against Dr Tiller. None of the evidence has yet been reviewed by a neutral party, such as a judge or a grand jury. There’s been no indictment, no preliminary hearing, no jury, no trial, no verdict. It is WAY too soon to be hauling Tiller off to jail.
WS Clark,
First of all, Roe vs Wade is not a law which was voted on by our Representatives or by the people.
It was a Supreme Court case ruling.
It was determined by the Supreme Court, not the people.
I disagree with that ruling and perhaps one day it will be overturned or at the very least we will get more rulings allowing greater restrictions on abortions.
Nathan,
You can disagree with the ruling all you want. But it IS the legal interpretation of the law of the land.
Sal,We had plenty of illegal abortions here before Roe v. Wade, considerably more than we have now, and they were a lot cheaper (about $25).
As I recall the charges were always misdemeanor under the law, at least the way I read them. Tiller didn’t want to accept them, because of several reasons, the most important would be a Medical Ethics violation.
That is what Tiller is afraid of the most, he could get severely sanctioned by the Medical Board.
This is never go to court as it would be in the best interest of the state and Tiller to settle this out of court. He will pay a fine which will upset most of you. That’s life–nothing more here–move on.
“First of all, Roe vs Wade is not a law which was voted on by our Representatives or by the people.”
Perhaps you would have understood better is I had said that it was the “Law of the Land.”
“It was determined by the Supreme Court, not the people.”
As you may not know, the Supreme Court Justices are nominated by the president and approved (or disapproved) by our elected Senate.
They didn’t just appear from nowhere.
There is no constitutional basis to overturned Roe v. Wade.
There is zero possibility that the US Congress will vote to ban abortion. Won’t happen – there is way too much public support for abortion rights.
Get over it.
It is so nice to see people talking about things they have no idea about!!!!
All the “pro-life” posters have just jumped all over themselves because *gasp* Morrison just proved them wrong….
Roughly a week ago people were bitching because it was “taking too long” for Morrison to complete the charges. Yesterday some idiot posted that Morrison didn’t spend ENOUGH time reviewing the charges because of the 15 he dismissed… talk about talking out of both sides of your a$$…
And NOW, suddenly, Oh yeah Kline was right all along. NO, HE WASN’T. All 30 of the charges he filed were WITHOUT merit. Morrison found violations that were NOT included in the original filings when his office REVIEWED the original filings. Phill Kline’s pursuit of George Tiller was, and has been now proven to be, purely political. Morrison, on the other hand, is doing the job he was hired to do – reviewing the FACTS, and then acting appropriately…
And all of you “pro-life” people who want to argue that outlawing abortion won’t increase the number of abortions, or people dying from them…. Pull your heads out… outlawing abortion is NOT going to deter people from getting them, what it will do is put them in harms way in the process… And honest to God, until you are put in the position of making the decision whether or not to have an abortion, you have NOTHING to base your statements on, and have NO IDEA what those women have to go through, so why don’t you just shut up? You are supposed to be so CHRISTIAN and all, right? Ever heard of this: “Judge not lest ye be judged”. See you all on judgement day… hope you like hot weather…
One thing that bugs me is the number of these self-rightious people who would condemn a kid for getting pregnant and even turn her out. THAT then drives her toward an abortion; done early enough she can even keep it secret.
Perhaps if we had a more supportive system FROM THE BEGINNING she would never meet Dr. Tiller in the first place.
Anon,
It actually goes:
1″Do not judge so that you will not be judged.2″For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. ”
I am not afraid to believe that protecting the unborn child from being killed for the convienence of the mother is wrong.
Nathan, real slow now. SCOTUS RULES on laws passed by representative.
And no, you dont GET to vote on every law. That is what legislators are elected to do. And when THEY think we should vote on it, we do.
They struck DOWN the law that was at issue in Roe v Wade. That was a LAW passed by legislators.
And they were elected.
OMG,
“killed for the convienence of the mother is wrong.”
Uh nathan? Why dont you ask women who have had legal abortions how “convenient” it was.
Then ask the ones who had ILLEGAL abortions how “convenient” it was.
Only a wingnut man could think abortion is done for convenience.
KFG,
It is only the stated reason for most abortions.
The mother finds it inconveinent to have a child at that time.
Are you really that ignorant?
Do you honestly think that the 1 million abortions a year in this country are because of rape and incest and to save the mothers life?
So, Nathan, how much time, effort and money have you spent recently working to prevent unwanted pregnancies?
Let me guess.
None?
Uh, Nathan, then I sure hope you aren’t out there having premarital sex, or excessively drinking, or lusting after someone, or you know, any other “sin”. If you aren’t having the damn abortion, how can you prove it is for “convienence”??????????????????????????????? Seriously, simply because someone told you so? How the F%&* do they know anyways???????? And, BTW, Nathan, the whole passage, in the Catholic bible, reads like this:
7:1′Do not judge, and you will not be judged;
2because the judgements you give are the judgements you will get, and the standard you use will be the standard used for you.
3Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own?
4And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own?
5Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.
Again, still feel comfortable judging a woman for having an abortion?
abortion is murder. No it isn’t. Yes it is. No it isn’t. depends.No it doesn’t.
and the beat goes on and on and on
anon,yup. My sins don’t add up the ending a life.
Unfortunately, LJ, those of us that support a woman’s right to choose have to be vigilant in working politically to protect that right.
That means getting out and voting and remaining politically active.
There are far too many people in America that would like to see the rights of others diminished.
They don’t rest, so we won’t rest.
Yup, the rights of the unborn.
Ben,”One thing that bugs me is the number of these self-rightious people who would condemn a kid for getting pregnant and even turn her out. THAT then drives her toward an abortion; done early enough she can even keep it secret.”
When I was a volunteer clinic escort, we actually saw little of this. I know it happens, but nearly all of the teenage girls who came to us were accompanied by one or both parents, and often other family members as well.Far and away, most women who came to the clinic were married, and already had children. The teen pregnancy issue regarding abortion has been blown way out of perspective by the anti’s. Economic factors played a much bigger role in abortion.
Jed – in that case I would sure like to see better availability to birth control.
It slays me, the same people who complain that abortion isn’t regulated enough, want to make it so that it is SO incredibly hard to get an abortion that they can’t. Where you gonna go? To Mexico and have it done? These supposed pro-life people have not a flipping clue about anything. Some truly believe that if a woman and child dies in childbirth, yay, she’s going to heaven. But if her child should die from an abortion, oh hell be them.
It’s really simple. I want people to get the help they need to follow the law and act responsibly in society. That’s what my utopia is. And if that means that a woman had sex *gasp* and she finds it so difficult for her to manage it, she should have the option to choose her path.
Babies should NOT be considered punishment for sex. They aren’t consequences.
WSclark, there are too many out there who feel we, who are active in the organizations to protect choice will protect them. However we’re doing it almost alone anymore. VERY few of my group actually participate. Some send money, but very few actually do any real legwork.
And the ones (like me) who actually DO get out and do things, we’re getting awfully tired of doing it alone.
“It is only the stated reason for most abortions.
The mother finds it inconveinent to have a child at that time.
Are you really that ignorant?”
Got any facts to back up your OPINION here nathan? Or just your usual made up crap?
“Do you honestly think that the 1 million abortions a year in this country are because of rape and incest and to save the mothers life?”
So, if the abortion isnt for rape, incest, or to prevent death, it’s an abortion for “convenience”?
big eye roll
Got any facts to back up THAT bullshit?
Jed. Do you have a link for your claim there were more illegal abortions performed before Roe v. Wade than legal ones after it. I would be interested in seeing that because it is contrary to every piece of data I’ve ever scene.
I’m not certain why pro-choice people believe that unsupported conclusory statements about how there is going to be a cataclysmic epidemic of illegal abortion deaths in the event Roe is overturned is persuasive argument. Show me some data that american men and woman are incapable of conforming their birth control practices to a post legal abortion world and I’ll believe you. Until then you are just sound like chicken little running around with your head cut off.You seem to have forgotten that before Roe v. Wade the birth control pill didn’t exist, it had only been legal to sell condemns to married men for a few years in some states, there was no IUD, no contraceptive sponge, and no spermicidal jelly. By the time Roe is overturned there will almost certainly be be a birth control pill for men.
In a world without the safety net of legal abortions, anyone who engages in sex who is not willing to accept the known consequence of pregnacy and doesn’t avail themselves to any one of vast array of birth control methods is either lazy, stupid or both.
^^ Of course that doesn’t account for women who have abortions for health reasons. Regardless of whether Roe is overturned I would favor legalized abortions in those circumstances as well as rape and incest.
By the way, you all understand that if Roe is overturned it doesn’t make abortion illegal simply goes back to the states to decide individually whether to allow abortions and under what circumstances. Since current data shows 60%+ favor some form of legalized abortion is is very unlikely overturning Roe v. Wade would “outlaw” abortion. I doubt voters in Kansas, one of the most pro-life states in the country, would outlaw abortions completely.
Tillers ignorance in this case should be admired from the right. Their president and vice president ignore the law everyday. One would think that this would endear Tiller to the fundies.
And if adoption is the only viable option for unwanted pregnancies we are in trouble. Thousands of potential adoptees are waiting, and waiting. I don’t see a line of perspective adopting parents standing around with their hands empty.
Well that is certainly a non sequitur. Thanks for sharing, Mike.
If I remember the numbers correctly, there were roughly the same number of abortion pre- Roe v. Wade as there were after – approximately 1 million per year.
The Pill was legalized (why was it ever illegal?) in 1965. Condoms were pretty much universally available in the Sixties.
Some of the anti-choice folks sound like they think SEX should be illegal. Adults in adult relationships have sex. It is normal. An incredibly small number of healthy adults do not engage in sexual activity.
Birth control has it’s limits. Even the best birth control is only about 98% effective. Abstinence does not count as birth control. It is not a realistic alternative.
Abortion is legal – get over it.
” Show me some data that american men and woman are incapable of conforming their birth control practices to a post legal abortion world and I’ll believe you.”
So… you think you straight folks could significantly reduce abortion by being more careful about your birth control practices?
Hmmmm. I guess if I were straight, I’d really take offense at that.
And this?
“You seem to have forgotten that before Roe v. Wade the birth control pill didn’t exist, it had only been legal to sell condemns to married men for a few years in some states, there was no IUD, no contraceptive sponge, and no spermicidal jelly.”
In Kansas? That’s a LOAD OF CRAP. I know. I was a practicing straight girl before 1973.
Granted, the sponge came out after 1973, but the other methods were around before Roe v. Wade.
And since you are such an expert, why dont YOU post the numbers of abortions figures by year?
“Their president and vice president ignore the law everyday.”
If that is the case, they should be impeached. But it isn’t. It’s just blather.
Well, I suppose I could just look it up.
Pre Roe v. Wade…………..
“Women who wanted to terminate their pregnancy often sought illegal, back-alley abortions. It is estimated that before 1973, 1.2 million women resorted to illegal abortion yearly and that botched illegal abortions caused as many as 5,000 deaths a year (NARAL).”
http://www.feminist.org/courts/roe.asp
“Condoms were pretty much universally available in the Sixties.”
If you knew your potential sex partner had full blown AIDS and, armed with a condom, would you have sex with him/her?
Ben,Availability of birth control isn’t really the problem. The pill, while effective, isn’t 100% effective, and even less when you forget and miss a day. Some women can’t take the pill for medical reasons and have to rely on less effective means, and there are a lot of guys out there who simply refuse to use condoms.
“(NARAL).”"
They seem to be unbiased. What does that stand for.
You’re out of your mind, fallopian tube. It’ll make it crazy hard to get an abortion. We spend more time arguing stupid stuff with the legislature on these things that you would ever believe. We have lawmakers who squeeze in ridiculous regulations on it. The fetus fanatics- all they care about is making abortion illegal by stripping it one bit at a time.
I will NOT let it happen. There are too many good and decent women in the world who have needed abortions. I won’t subject them to the back alleys.
And yes, at one time they believed that an overwhelming number of admissions to the hospital for infection was due to illegal abortions prior to Roe.
Do you have anything ADULT to add to the discussion, Fleet?
So fleetie, why dont YOU post the figures then from a reliable source.
Or maybe you cant do that? You just find it easier to take pot shots at others?
Oh yeah, I forgot. You are fleettwood.
WS,”Condoms were pretty much universally available in the Sixties.”
Condoms were illegal to sell or possess in Kansas until 1948, and for a long time after that were fairly difficult to obtain. They were only sold in pharmacies and many pharmacists sold them only to married men.
“Condoms were illegal to sell or possess in Kansas until 1948″
I wonder why?
If you knew your potential sex partner had full blown AIDS and, armed with a condom, would you have sex with him/her?
“In 1972, 24 women died from causes known to be associated with legal abortions and 39 died as a result of known illegal abortions.”
Not exactly what the you peoples would have us believe, now is it?
I grew up in Michigan, Jed, I had no problems buying them in my teens in the Sixties – you just had to work up the nerve to ask the pharmacist.
Same stuff, different decade.
The religious folks didn’t want kids to have sex so they made it difficult to obtain birth control.
Like that was going to stop anyone.
In Boston, in the 60s, it was illegal to prescribe birth control pills to an unmarried woman. Also, it was a ‘crime against chastity’ to sell condoms to an unmarried person.
Interesting. Very interesting.
After abortion, what will the Religious Right try to ban next? Birth control? Oral sex? Masturbation?
Some folks just need to get over themselves.
Sal,”Jed. Do you have a link for your claim there were more illegal abortions performed before Roe v. Wade than legal ones after it.”
There are no accurate statistics for illegal abortion, because it was illegal; you didn’t report breaking the law. My figures are quite rough and based on my knowing a chiropractor here who was doing 2-3000 abortions (D&C’s) a year from 1949-1973. There were three other chiropractors in town with similar practices, as well as some doctors, nurses and a few out-and-out untrained butchers who did them part-time. That’s a whole lot of illegal abortions! And while I’m only counting local abortions, I imagine they would be fairly similar around the country. Remember also, that birth control at that time wasn’t nearly as available or effective as it is today, nor was out-of-wedlock pregnancy remotely as acceptable.
Although Mr. Morrison was forced by circumstances to look at this case, to his credit he did not turn a blind eye. I am impressed, with the proviso that it may have been impossible for him to do anything else.
This case is drawing national interest simply because of the fact that Tiller is who he is, a notorious late term abortionist. But that is not the headline here. The only thing that seemed to matter to Mr. Brownlee (and Mr. Morrison??) is that someone point out for heaven sakes, that these were not the SAME charges that Phill Kline made!
Fleets enema, you really can’t cite a source, can you?
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/tgr/06/2/gr060203.html
We’re not just talking deaths either, we’re talking sterility, massive infections that leave disfigurement, disability.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5212a1.htm
You are citing “KNOWN” deaths from illegal abortions, Fleet. How many deaths do you think were actually reported correctly?
I would guess that the answer is very few.
Too bad all the Pro- Abortion folks were abandoned by the woman who was the “Roe” in “Roe v Wade.”
Guess that says a lot, huh? :)
Citing data from NARAL is high comedy. It would be like me citing data from Operation Rescue.
Griswold v. Conneticut which extended the right to privacy to the right to purchase condemns was decided in 1965.
The pill was legalized in 1960 but because of its cost and the fact that early versions contained so much hormone they had very nasty side effects the number of women taking the pill didn’t reach 10 million until the very late 1960’s and then it was primarily married women. It remained illegal in many states to sell birth control pills to single women until 1972. Eisenbrandt v. Baird held that women had a constitutionally protected right to purchase birth control pills.
Yes, Roe is the law. But the constitutional underpinning of Roe is eroding much faster than you likely know and it has nothing to do with the pro-life movement or activist justices. Roe is based on the concept that non-viable fetuses are not “persons” and do not have any rights. Therefore, the privacy rights of the women, found in the penumbra are prevail, e.g. because the non-viable fetus is not a “person” in the eyes of law there is no balancing of rights necessary. However, as medical science advances the distinction between viable and non-viable is becoming very blurry. In the relatively near future, ironically because of advances in medical science made possible by stem cell research, the distinction between viable and non-viable will be non-exsistent. When, not if, but when that day comes there will be no rational basis in science upon which to base the legal rule of law relied upon in Roe that a fetus is not a “person” in the eyes of law. Thus, fetuses will be viable almost from the moment of conception and will be vested with all the rights of person in the eyes of the law from that moement. The rights of both people (mother and fetus) will have to be balanced and it is unclear how the court when balancing the rights of two people the law can so exclusively chose the rights of one over the other so as to keep abortion legal.
So I wouldn’t be so cock sure in your pronouncement that Roe is the law get over it. Medical science is coming to get you and your abortions, and there is nothing short of stopping medical research you can do about it.
Roe’s contention is ridiculous that she didn’t know she was trying to have an abortion- have you ever bothered to read her story?
“Guess that says a lot, huh? :)”
It says absolutely nothing. Zilch.
The Guttermacher article gives numbers without a link to any primary data. So it is worthless as authority.
So you are saying that medical science will be able to make a fetus in the first three months “viable?”
Not likely.
Salpingo,
Aside from the points made on abortion, any state enacting laws that would give a fetus all of the same protections and rights of a person would be a formula for chaos. For example, it is well-known that many human pregnancies start out as twins but that one of the embryos essentially cannibalizes the other (sometimes to the point where the child that is born has, upon x-ray, bones of the “twin” inside them) so that only one child is ever born. By your reasoning, one could reasonable make a case for manslaughter or murder, could you? So, the child would be guilty and would you make the mother an accomplice? Just a relatively simple example of the many legal difficulties in giving fetuses or embryos “full” status.
The argument for having slaves (States Rights) and the right to have an abortion (women’s rights and States Rights) have many things in common.I suspect it will eventually turn out the same way. States will determine the abortion laws. If you don’t like the way your own State rules on the right to an abortion, you will have choices. You can lobby to have them changed or you can move or you can go across state lines to have the abortion. When Roe v Wade is overturned, abortion will still be legal in every state in one degree or another. The Libs would have you believe otherwise, of course.
“So you are saying that medical science will be able to make a fetus in the first three months “viable?”"
I agree.
BFAH,
You would have failed early law school with that analogy. :D
Really Repub,
That simple example is given by many medical ethicists and jurists as one example of how convoluted things would get…you know like your thinkinh ;->
BFAH.
Medicine and science create problems the law never contemplated everyday. The law doesn’t simply throw up it’s hands and say it’s too difficult to deal with we’ll just keep the status quo. Of course there will be difficult legal problems created when medical science advances to the point a fetus is viable from the moment of conception. But read Roe v. Wade and tell me it isn’t based on the fetus not being a person based on it’s lack of viablity. When the scientific basis for the conclusion a fetus is nonviable no longer exists there is a fundamental problem in the way Roe was decided.
As an aside your example of a twin cannabalizing its co-twin is fundamentally flawed. Manslaughter would requires some act which is at least “negligent”. The natural processes you describe do not in any way shape or form consitute negligence either criminally or civilly.
So you are saying that medical science will be able to make a fetus in the first three months “viable?”
Not likely.______________________________
Very likely, perhaps by the end of this decade.
Methinks there is an issue called malice aforethought and intent that must be addressed with murder or intentional homicide. :)
But hey! Maybe that’s just me. :)
“Very likely, perhaps by the end of this decade.”
Don’t hold your breath.
Then again, go ahead and hold your breath.
You have about a much chance of holding your breath until then as does a sub-three month old fetus has of surviving.
Explain baby kangaroos then WSClark. :D
Salpingo,
My God, it was just an example. The point was that you would need to excude from any potential charge the act of cannibalization (after all a human life ended). Consider a pregnant mother and child labor laws…or a murder committed by a pregnant mother..is the child an accomplice? You would have an embryo capable of being party to a lawsuit, or an embryo getting a social security number? Would you now need to record its date of conception (many times age is an important issue in the law)? And on, and on, and on…
BTW,
If you are claiming that a human life ended with the involvement of another “person” and you are saying there is no criminal penalty, I’d bet your venturing into VERY uncharted waters. Why couldn’t the same claim be made for “adult” humans…some “natural” process that led to the death of another. You underestimate the criminal mind and the jesuitical casuistry of the legal profession when it comes to making a buck.
“Explain baby kangaroos then WSClark. :D”
How many women do you know, Blank, that are marsupials?
Wait, don’t answer that.
Killing babies for a career choice and he actually sits in church on Sundays and considers himself a Christian…why am I not surprised?The Nazis celebrated Xmas, too.It’s amazing how humans can justify anything. Sometimes I’m ashamed I’m part of the human race.If it’s true what Christians believe about man being created in God’s image…then God must be pretty pathetic.
Then Tiller must belong to the liberal end of UCC or a similar church.
I wonder if he has a pew to his own?
Mary you make absolutely no sense to me. How can you understand abortion, know that it needs to happen sometimes, agree that it should be legal, but hate the man who performs it?
Would you prefer nobody provide abortion services? Then what?
Dr. Tiller, please move away from Wichita.
After a quick perusal of this thread, I did not see where anyone linked this article which explains the details into the law and Morrison’s thinking. Also included is a video from the KC Star of Morrison explaining his position and the course of things.
http://www.kansas.com/news/updates/story/109008.html
I doubt voters in Kansas, one of the most pro-life states in the country, would outlaw abortions completely.
Posted by: Salpingo | June 28, 2007 at 04:44 PM
SalpingoActually, sadly, Kansas legalized abortions PRIOR to Roe V. Wade.
Sadly, as well, Main and New York have STRICTER abortion laws than Kansas.
I honestly think that the radical prolifers have hurt our efforts to enact popular restrictions on abortions, here in Kansas.
Judy Brown and her ALL or American Life Lobby, along with Right to Life of Kansas, fought the NRTL or National Right to Life Committee and Kansans for Life, when KFL tried to get “Parental Consent” laws passed.
RTL and ALL were on the SAME side as George Tiller, in that fight.
The logic of the radical “pro-lifers”?? Well, they said, “no exceptions, no compromises” and part of that “creed” was that they did not want to give any parent the “right” to consent.
Judy Brown told me, over the phone, that she would support “parental notice” instead.
I quickly pulled up several cases where ALL had supported parental consent laws in OTHER states.
Judy Brown was simply helping her ALL friends beat back the FAR more successful NRTL/KFL organization.
Envy and pride. That is what keeps abortion laws on the East Coast more restrictive than what we have in Kansas!
It is not the prochoicers who keep us from passing stricter late term prohibitions or parental consent laws.
It is the Operation Rescue/ALL types who don’t understand that “politics is the art of the possible.”
As one prolife radical told me “Lincol freed ALL of the slaves, not just some of them.”
BULL!
Lincoln did NOT free the slaves of the border states and the slaves in states that stayed loyal to the Union.
Lincoln played politics, in order to win.
Nothing wrong with that.
Abortion law WILL be more restrictive in 10 years and again in 20 years.
We are getting older.
Somebody has to pay our social security.
The baby boomers are nothing if not the most selfish generation in history.
The law will change to suit the selfish needs of boomers!
(The only other answer to pay for medicare and social security is immigration.)
There is no question that Tiller is guilty of violating the requirement for a financially independent second quack signing off on post-viable abortions. Pro-lifers have yelled about that for years. But Morrison is trying to tell the public that you cannot prosecute any sleazy excuse like “depression” or “missing a music concert” when it is reported as medical justification for post-viable abortion. That won’t fly.The law requires a threat to the mother of substantial and irreversible harm occurring if the pregnancy continues a few more weeks to live birth. There are no mental conditions that can pose such a threat to the mother. Tiller lied on his abortion report. Second quack Neuhaus lied, also. Morrison lied about why he threw out the 30 charges.But Morrison wants to say he upheld the law by slapping Tiller’s wrist for slipping the second quack a little fee for signing off.We will not allow Morrison to trivialize Tiller’s incinerator full of dozens of viable babies, illegally killed without medical justification.We will have justice.
Sorry, I missed where Phillip already provided that link. It was just that from these posts, I could not tell that anyone knew of the issues involved. Why would I ever expect that on an abortion thread? Tilting at those damn windmills all the time… I am guilty.
Just ignore what you want to Troy. You have ZERO evidence other than a pissed off grandmother that someone got an abortion to attend a rock concert. You can’t ignore the law that says MENTAL HEALTH is a valid, life threatening issue for the mother. Your statement of a few weeks is wrong. MONTHS remaining, not weeks. Get it right spin doctor. You act as if they’re getting abortions at 38 weeks and that’s absolutely false.
Anon, that was the most disgusting post I’ve ever read. You want poor babies to pay for your social security? Bastard. Actually it’ll end up being opposite- they’ll be in foster care and it’ll sap away from your precious retirement.
pmom
darn, I was the “disgusting” one, and you gave the wrong person credit.
I’m not getting into an “all abortion” thread; it’s pointless.
But I have to complement BFAH for this sentence:
“You underestimate the criminal mind and the jesuitical casuistry of the legal profession when it comes to making a buck.”
“jesuitical casuistry” – where in the world did that phrase come from? And can I steal it; hell, I’m not sure I understand it!!
Maybe that’s the point?!?
;-)
You didn’t write that Anon? About the boomers?
If not, I apologize.
I also want to ask Butter Newman how the brain isn’t a major bodily function.
Wow, I actually learned something tonight:Jesuitical casuistry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casuistry
Then Tiller must belong to the liberal end of UCC or a similar church.
I wonder if he has a pew to his own?
Posted by: Republican
This posting represents what I hate about these so-called religious folks who put themselves above everyone else. How arrogant of Republican to be the judge and jury of Tiller’s soul. Doesn’t the Bible tell us to not judge lest ye be judged Republican? What church do you belong to and do you own your own pew? And let’s be clear as to whether your church is really a church or not – okay?
Morrison has filed charges against Tiller and yet the anti-abortion crowd still want Tiller’s head on a platter. These so-called Bible Thumpers will not be happy until they see Tiller’s blood spilled – but yet they call Tiller the ‘killer’. Go figure.
I find it funny that the operation rescue people will give their money to the founder so he can leave his wife for his 20 some year old secratery, refuse to pay child support, go bankrupt, then ask for donations, buy a half a million dollar home with those donations, and explain it as, and I quote, “I entertain high profile people. I need a nice house for that.” Who are the sickos here. Operation Rescue is a cult! See for yourself. Just do a search on Randall Terry and you will find everything you needed to know.
so-called Bible Thumpers will not be happy until they see Tiller’s blood spilled – but yet they call Tiller the ‘killer’. Go figure.
Posted by: sam | June 28, 2007 at 11:30 PM
Ironic use of words you used there – “blood spilled”
Repub — Before you go off on a wild goose chase on the UCC, please be very aware that there are a number of denominations that are Pro Choice… NOT just the UCC! We might have been among the first, but we are certainly NOT alone!!
ALSO, youmight want to note that many of the so-called Pro Life churches are ALSO against birth control, condoms, masturbaton, AND in vitro fertilization!! Abortion is but the tip of the ice berg for those folks… They want it ALL!!!
SOME churches do not believe that a couple should be allowed to get married UNLESS they are able to have children… HA!! I’d like to see them try to get that passed in legislation!! See, they dont tell you Everything they believe, because they know it wont fly… So, they just start at one point, and gradually pick it apart, until they get what they want…
I DO NOT believe that kind of thing is going to fly anymore in this country… I PRAY that it doesnt!! How many posters on this Blog could be married, if the standard was ever set to “able to have children”??? I would be ruled out immediately… So would my wife…
P-Mom,”Just ignore what you want to Troy. You have ZERO evidence other than a pissed off grandmother that someone got an abortion to attend a rock concert.”
Actually, Troy doesn’t even have that much- just look at his web site. Fortunately, he stinks at writing fiction, so it’s fairly easy to see it’s about 90% flat-out false and 10% gross exaggeration.The really interesting thing was that when he was picketing clinics, he tried several times to get one of us to sell him a speculum. Now just what did he have in mind to do with that- speculate?
I just wish Klines mom and Tiller would have met before Phil was born,
I know Jed. I sit there reading it thinking “just who do you think you’re fooling with that nonsense”. He’s so full of it.
I really do wonder what he wants with a speculum. Yuck.
Ironic use of words you used there – “blood spilled”
Posted by: Republican
Obviously my point was missed by Republican. The anti-abortion group is no better than Tiller who they consider to be the ‘killer’.
I’m waiting for Morrison to bring charges against the anti-abortion group when they harass Tiller at his home, church and clinic. After all, if Tiller can be charged, and Morrison did file 15 charges, then the anti-abortion gang has some dismeanor charges to be filed also. What’s good for the goose is good for the gander. We are nation of laws and should be fair to everyone.
“when they harass Tiller at his home”
hmmmm …
Didn’t we just convict some people for that with Kolb?
“The anti-abortion group is no better than Tiller who they consider to be the ‘killer’.”
How much sense does that make?Answer: none
Pmom,
you have me confused with someone else. My posts have only DEFENDED the right to an abortion…Or rather, the fact that these hypocrits who judge these women for their abortions and these providers for doing them will face their day on the chopping block…
Depends if the anti-abortion was protesting on a Public Street in accordance with local ordinance and not Private Property.
If they protested on a Public Street, not much can be done.
If they walked on his property, then something should be done if a complaint was filed by Tiller.
repukes in office will never allow Roe V Wade to be overturned for one simple reason. They will lose the “faithful” voters if they do not have something to put on the ballot.
why do you think more democrats voted for the so called ‘hate amendment” than republicans? Same reason.
“They will lose the “faithful” voters if they do not have something to put on the ballot.”
What is this? Silly statement day?
see- my post made no more sense than yours.
When they harass Tiller at home?
How do they get in the gated community he lives in?
I’m sorry I confused you with ECON 101. There used to be an uber conservative ANON on one blog, and I guess I keep confusing you with that person.
I have seen you support women’s rights. I apologize profusely.
Salpingo – what’s up with your nic? Do you even know what the word means?
And yes, Tiller does get harrassed at his home. If you don’t believe it, then just ask them – they are proud of it.
If the Sunflower Coalition got arrested for protesting at Kolb’s house – then why are the anti-abortion nutjobs not being arrested?
Too bad these anti-abortion people don’t do some actual good and go out and adopt unwanted children and give them good homes. But, then if they did that, then they couldn’t get to block the streets, have their little kids lie down in the street so cars can’t get through. What a waste!
fleetsenema
mock all you want
it doesn’t change how idiotic you are and so are your positions. how does it feel to be represented by the most corrupt administration ever?
“how does it feel to be represented by the most corrupt administration ever?”
Clinton has been out of office for some time now. Why is it always Clinton! Clinton! Clinton! with you people. Give him a rest.
GOP
Grand ole Perverts
but yet they continue to blame the Clenis
must be jealousy
Fleets enema is just a joker
hehehe
Leave,It does no good to insult fleetie- he’s not smart enough to realize he’s been insulted.