Sen. Sam Brownback is still getting ripped by scientists for his recent anti-evolution commentary in the New York Times. Here’s a point-by-point refutation by Jerry Coyne, a professor in the department of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago. Coyne writes: "Brownback’s misunderstanding of science is more dangerous than his ignorance of evolution."
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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162 Comments
Brownback probably missed 30% of his biology classes too.
Yep Doug… at LEAST 30%… and maybe more!! Now, Brownback, tell me again…. How is it that we are JUST NOW seeing light from ancient stars, that has taken billions of years to get here, travelling at 186,000 miles per second??? If LIGHT didnt exist until 6,000 years ago???
Yep, we got us a big problem here…
Anybody else see Sat. Night Live last night?
They were talking about Missouri banning gay marriage etc and Katie Pohler says, “in a related story, Kansas burned a witch . . . ”
Thanks for helping to make us a laughingstock, Brownback.
The Senator that keeps on giving! He’s a natural to follow Bush!
Let’s not be too hard on the poor senator! His daddy told him evolution was wrong, and refused to let him evolve with the rest of his class. The guy is a victim of intellectual abuse, and as such, needs to be treated with special consideration for his unevolved state.
Using a science to discredit/disprove a belief is hardly noteworthy or even provable.
I suppose if the intention was to keep the “belief” out of public institutions, then the law is on the side of the scientist.
Correct me if I’m wrong, a science cannot be used to disallow a belief, especially one that involves a particular faith or groups of faith believers.
Discredit for political purposes yes.
Disallow for purposes for the right to practice that belief, no.
Heheheeh. He must have missed human reproduction classes too.
Two words. Snowflake babies.
Oh, and two more.
Buhbye sam.
Ksfarmgrrl, et al: Sam Brownback graduated from K-State some time after I did, probably in Ag Econ which was a popular major there at the time, followed by a stint as a disc jockey while attending law school in Topeka, if I understand his biography correctly. Probably didn’t have time for in depth study of biology. I believe our own WE Blogger, R.J. Dickens, attended K-State at the same time so might have better information.
I recall a month of so ago, Senator Sam and Governor Kathleen were lauding ethanol production as the saviour of Kansas. Both were apparently unaware that ethanol production uses a massive amount of water generally removed from our underground water aquifers, notably the Ogallala aquifer, which could eventually turn Kansas into an arid wasteland.
I was just reading an EAGLE editorial dated June 8th by the indefatigable EAGLE opinionizer, Rhonda Holman, with whom I normally disagree mildly if not emphatically.
In her editorial, “Kansas is a player in greenhouse gases,” Ms. Holman discusses the Group of Eight Summit meeting that took place in Germany last week. She points out the double whammy of Kansas “10th place in emissions of carbon dioxide” from coal fired electric generation plants and the threat of additional pollution and more water withdrawal if the proposed massive coal-fired power plants are built by Sunflower electric utility out near Garden City.
I read and re-read Rhonda’s editorial to see if she fell into the same mud hole as Sebelius and Brownback, that is, calling for additional destructive ethanol production in Kansas.
Thank you Rhonda Holman for not falling into that trap of misinfomation in your editorial remarks.
Wink, I couldnt agree with you more about heck of a job brownback.
But I can PERSONALLY tell you, governor leadership is not “unaware” of the water issues.
She just doesnt give a rat’s ass as long as the campaign donations from the likes of steve irsik, don paxson, et al keep rolling in.
She knows. She isnt stupid. But addressing kansas’ water problems in a serious manner would require political courage and vision for the future.
The likelyhood we will see “political courage and vision for the future” from governor leadership?
(Crickets chirping)
Naw. It would stand in her way of seeking higher office. So replace brownback or robers with her.
What freaking difference would THAT make for Kansas water?
The only difference will be made when we elect a governor who doesnt put kansas’s own darth cheney, joe harkins, in charge of natural resources.
Is there a leader in kansas who takes our water problems seriously? Someone who regards water as life, not just a vehicle to float campaign donations? Would we, in our usual brilliant kansas way, even ELECT such a person if they appeared?
(Crickets chirping)
Not unless the bible said so. Or terry fox.
So… governor leadership and whole kansas democrat hee haw gang use water rights as political reward and capital.
She now has joe harkins in charge, behind the scenes, at the kansas energy office, headed officially by mark the republican. And what are they pushing?
Ethanol.
Why? Two words. Big ag. Two more words. Campaign donations.
One more word.
Corruption.
But hey, we’ve got the damn queers to worry about so who cares about water?
Maybe your children? hehehehehehehh
It sure will be interesting to see who replaces david pope.
The only good news for kansas natural resources in all this?
Sebelius will be out of office in less than two years. Maybe THEN a serious effort can begin to save kansas water.
In the meantime? Governor “leadership” is aquiring herself a real red state record on the environment. Think water. Think holcomb. Think about her support for hays based sunflower electric and little stevie miller.
Yep. That red state bullshit might play in kansas, but given the NATIONAL public outcry about coal plants and the looming water crisis, she may have to switch parties if she really wants to be vp.
Because mainstrean (read NOT kansas) democrats dont like environmental rapists like sebelius and her merry band of harkins followers.
At least we can hope so….
Oh, and all that water from Cedar Bluff and the recreational dollars that followed? You know, the water and dollars that were destroyed by John Bird and the democrats in the kansas house and senate?
You know, the water that was so desperately needed in HAYS to support all that new economic development, all those big box stores that were coming to Hays so we out here could all work for minimum wage selling widgets?
heheheheh. Hows that working for Hays, western kansas, and the state? How’s all that water being used for economic development?
A little linky love
http://www.hdnews.net/
Thanks governor leadership and kansas democrats. Is this is what we can expect from you on water policy and if sunflower’s coal fired addiction is approved by you?
I guess so, when only hays matters, when water is political payoff, when the NEXT generation has to deal with our problems because the democrats in KANSAS were just as weak and corrupt as the republicans?
Meet the new boss same as the old boss. The outcome is always the same. They all serve the same masters.
Big ag. Big oil. And big campaign donations.
And the sheeple follow….
He also believes rape victims should be forced to carry their pregnancies.
cbs2.com/topstories/topstories_story_160203442.html
Nothing like 9months of reminder and punishment for being raped in the first place.
He’s so far off base, it’s sad.
Mr. Coyne’s editorial is less a critique of Mr. Brownback’s editorial and more of a lengthy argument against anyone who would question science or try to blend faith and science.
Science does not equal “truth”. If that were the case, “truth” would be changing all the time as theories are discarded and others formed. The “truth” does not change.
That is why many find “truth” in the form of the timeless values andthe love of God. God is the “truth” He does not change. You can build your life on this “truth”. Happy Sunday everyone.
Hey Doug, did you ever publish information on Koch on your website? Meadowlark and I are in an argument on another blog about money links.
The part that bothers most “creationists” is the part about humans evolving in the African Sahara. The basis of their rejection of evolution is prejudice. Sam Brownback and those who think like him use religion to hide their prejudice.
Could someone please cut & paste the NYTimes article here? I can’t see it (not a member).
Senator Brownback’s faith is in line with 2 out of three Americans according to a recent Gallup poll.
On the other hand, Coyne’s conclusion that Brownback has a “misunderstanding” of science is not supported in his hit piece.
I have a very good layman’s understanding of science and nothing I understand about science conflicts with my faith.
I agree with Outlander. The ‘truth’ of science has changed many times in my lifetime. The Rock my faith is built on has not.
Hank
When Scooter lied Hank thought it was OK to lie — that time.
When a poll shows something he chooses to believe Hank quotes that poll, otherwise polls are worthless.
And that is the truth.
The main problem I find with the discovery is that they are using morphology alone as the basis of their Phylogeny classification.
Take for instance, a chimpanzee has 99.4 in common with the genone of a human. There are still tens of millions of chemical combinations in difference.
A skull recentaly discovered in Australia that is about 40,000 years old, had 99.6 in common with a human. Very similar morphology, but still tens of millions of chemical combinations in difference from that of a human.
Since there is no way to recover usable DNA from this ancient Ethiopian skull, scientists are going to have an extremely hard challenge convincing that this skull belongs to the phylogeny of humans rather than of apes.
The DNA from the Australian skull is closer in it’s chemical genome structure to a chimp than it is off a human.
Unless they can find an alternate path of proof other than morphology to compare the evolutionary process, it is rather unconvincing that inclusion into a branch of man is far from proven.
Again, Hank and his ilk use their Bible as their source for being all knowing. The Bible is NOT a source reference UNLESS the person reading it believes it to be so.
After all, the Bible has been translated so many times, are you sure, Hank, that you have the correct version?
Linda dear,
When have I ever said it’s OK to lie?
And furthermore dear, why should I ever bring a poll to the discussion that I disagree with?
Feel free to use in your answer examples of polls that you have brought to the discussion that go against your faith.
Hank
Dear fedup,
Yes.
Sincerely,
Hank
Dear Hank,
Prove it.
Sincerely,
Tom
Dear Tom,
Your momma.
Hank
Hank,
Right. You were defending Scooter because he didn’t lie. Just because he was found guilty doesn’t make him guilty — it was a set up, no crime, or whatever your opinion is / was. Right.
I can’t think of a time I’ve ever used a poll in a post. I can think of times you’ve debunked polls as being worthless. Usually I just post my opinions and always expect that others will have their own as I do mine.
But I don’t think anything I say is important to you or would cause you to think about what you post. I really don’t appreciate you calling me anything but my name. When you use an endearment it doesn’t sound at all endearing. But I’ve asked you to not do this before and you pay no attention.
As your last post shows, you have your opinions.
Linda
What was that Bill Maher was saying about Kansas, again?
ALMOST UNFAILINGLY, conservatives pander to their “base” by oversimplifying complex issues: if it takes longer than a glib phrase to explain, it must be false.
Meanwhile, the Book of Reagan is followed to the letter, with the government bilking the distracted, uniformed public of everything from evidence to start wars to basic civil liberties.
I can just hear Uncle Karl now:
“If you get ‘em all worked with gay marriage, you can sneak in secret prisons around the world!!”
“If you get ‘em all worked up with stem cell research, you can sneak in torture at Abu Ghraib!!!”
“If you get ‘em all worked up about Al Qaeda, you can start a war for oil against another country!!!”
the list goes on…
I see that only a few of the posters decided on using the scientific approach, while others blathered on with ad hominem and conjecture.
Another skull on the pile for the Evolutionary Scientists who have yet to prove anything substantial about their “theory” on the evolution of man.
I suppose the the secular groups will find out when they die. :)
No wonder LindaInks got chased to the Land of the Fisters. She attacks another poster about Scooter Libby which has absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic.
But that’s what the secular, Leftist Liberal Surrender Monkeys do best, attack a person for whatever reason they can come up with.
Let’s see some science lindainks about how as ZeroEnd wrote, morphology alone can prove the evolution of man.
Come on now, you can do it lindainks, or are your ancestors one of those with smaller brain cases and have developed the inability to reason out topics beyond raw gut reaction. :)
Linda,
Don’t let the troll run you off again. It delights in lashing out at people, hitting what it thinks are their buttons. Just give it what it deserves: Nothing.
Linda, we have a policy here regarding Republank………..
And the chorus goes:
Walk on by…………………….
Sing it with me now……………
Foolish pride, that is all he has left so let him cry………………
Speaking of ad hominem…
Hank, you said you had proof that your version of the Bible is the correct one. I asked, as politely as you’ve been addressing others, for that proof. You responded with a lame “your momma” insult. I don’t talk about your family (unless talking TO Nathan). Why bring mine into this?
Actually Tom,
The phrase ‘your momma’ is not bringing your family into the discusion. It’s merely my way of not suffering fools.
You seem to have some reading comprehension problems, probably because of your preconcieved notions.
fedup asked me if I’m sure that the verson of the Bible is the correct one. “Yes.” I answered. Never calimed to have proof. that’s the beauty of having faith in a God that I find comfort and guidance in worshipping. I don’t have to prove anything to non believers.
Hank
Here’s something to consider from Christian scientist Freeman Dyson.
Science and ReligionDyson is a strong opponent of reductionism. He is a non-dogmatic Christian, happy to attend various churches and indifferent to much theology.“Science and religion are two windows that people look through, trying to understand the big universe outside, trying to understand why we are here. The two windows give different views, but they look out at the same universe. Both views are one-sided, neither is complete. Both leave out essential features of the real world. And both are worthy of respect.
“Trouble arises when either science or religion claims universal jurisdiction, when either religious dogma or scientific dogma claims to be infallible. Religious creationists and scientific materialists are equally dogmatic and insensitive. By their arrogance they bring both science and religion into disrepute. The media exaggerate their numbers and importance. The media rarely mention the fact that the great majority of religious people belong to moderate denominations that treat science with respect, or the fact that the great majority of scientists treat religion with respect so long as religion does not claim jurisdiction over scientific questions.
“Dyson disagrees with the famous remark by his fellow-physicist Steven Weinberg that “Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things—that takes religion.
“Weinberg’s statement is true as far as it goes, but it is not the whole truth. To make it the whole truth, we must add an additional clause: “And for bad people to do good things—that takes religion.” The main point of Christianity is that it is a religion for sinners. Jesus made that very clear. When the Pharisees asked his disciples, “Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?” he said, “I come to call not the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Only a small fraction of sinners repent and do good things, but only a small fraction of good people are led by their religion to do bad things.”_________________Dyson is one of those rare individuals whom evolutionary genetics can’t explain. His genius is so profound that he was elected by the Cambridge University to be a young faculty member (fellow) at age 23 just after getting his bachelor’s degree. He was elected to Royal Society fellowship at age 28, a year younger than Isaac Newton and Charles Darwin, four years younger than world-leading astrophysicist Stephen Hawking, and interestingly enough, as a numerical factoid, twenty-eight years younger than atheist evolutionist Richard Dawkins.
How brilliant is Dyson? Cornell made him a professor of physics at age 27, an astounding appointment for someone who had only a bachelor’s degree, then J. Robert Oppenheimer headhunted Dyson at age 29 to join him, along with Albert Einstein and John von Neumann, as a professor at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, NJ. In gatherings of preeminent scientists Dyson was most often judged to be the proverbial “smartest guy in the room”.
So, in essence, Dyson is saying to know it alls on both sides of the fence, Actually, neither of you knows it all, and puffing yourselves up to pretend you do discredits both parties.
Hank,
Where have I ever posted that I’m a non-believer? If you can find it, please paste it in. Be sure to include the date, topic name, and timestamp.
I’ll give you the point that you didn’t say you had proof. But you were responding to a question if you knew your version of the Bible is the correct one, given all the different interpretations floating around. I think if you’re going to cite something authoritative in a thread about evolutionary science, the rest of us deserve some proof of your claim or assertion.
The “your momma” line was rude and uncalled for. Should I start bringing your mother, or perhaps your wife, into these conversations as a way to insult you? It’s just not considered polite, you know?
Dearest Linda,
I defend Libby because I think he is a hero. I think that he has been poorly served by the justice system and the administration.
I have studied and read enough about his case that I understand exactly the so-called lies that he is accused of telling to the FBI and to the prosecuter. I can see no attempt to cover up anything or to hinder and investigation that had already determined the leaker and had already determined that thee was no underlying crime.
In short, I percieve of no motive or intent to decieve.
That being said, next time you come to the discussion with something that has nothing to do with the thread at least you could have a basic understanding of the irelevent crap yo9u use in your ad hominum attacks.
I still love ya, you’re pretty enough to be a republican!
Hank
Just who does a Federal judge, a US Attorney, and a jury of Libby’s peers think they ARE, after all? Hank Price says Libby is innocent. That makes it true.
After all, he doesn’t need to provide proof. Just an assertion, and a “yo momma”
Dear Tom,
When a man is merely ansering a question about his faith in the Bible I consider a demand to “Prove it” to be stupid and disengenous.
I’ll admit that my commment “Your momma” was rude. I apologize if you took it as anything against your family. I meant it t indicate only that I thought you were a fool.
Hank
Dear Tom,
If you think that Libby had a jury of his peers you are a bigger fool than I suspect.
Hank
Libby’s peers, Mr. Price, are American citizens picked from the local population. Are you implying that Libby was somehow too good for his jury, that he was somehow above them? Have you that little respect for the American system you send your son overseas to risk his life for?
Hank,”When a man is merely ansering a question about his faith in the Bible I consider a demand to “Prove it” to be stupid and disengenous.”
Yet you claim evolution isn’t “proven,” which is stupid and disingenuous. What’s good for the goose…..
I think that Hank Price may have been referring to the Juror that was a former neighbor of Bob Woodward who was intimately knowledgeable and involved in the case.
That Juror should have been disqualified.
Jed,
Yep.
Jed,
Tell me how to prove a faith or belief?
The Eagle is again after brownback. It is no big deal if he questions evolution. Apparently for the liberals no one should be skeptical about evolution and if they do, they should be mocked.
Blow it out your fleetwood, John.
Repub, Logic and reason are good places to start
Repub, Logic and reason are good places to start
Posted by: Tom Paine | June 10, 2007 at 04:37 PM
Okay Tom Paine, explain in Logical syntax how one would explain the unknowable frequently assigned to God.
Or, using reason Tom Paine, reason out what infinity means and how an Omnipotent and Omniscience Being can by his own method design a universe and make living creatures.
Then after you do all of that, put it in a testable hypothesis.
I’ll wait here and sip my coffee.
Dear Jed,
Thanks! I assume that in your analogy I was the gander!
Hank
Dear Tom,
“Have you that little respect for the American system you send your son overseas to risk his life for?’
Are you incredibly ignorant or do you merely think it’s clever to argue beside the point?
My boy joined the Marines originally because he wanted to eventually be a police officer. Marine Corps training is a good foundation for a career in law inforcement.
He came out of the Marine Corps with a desire to be an engineer instead and he enrolled at WSU in July of 2001. After 9/11 he enlisted in the Marine Corps reserve “in case they need me”, he said.
In June of last year they ‘needed him’ and he did a tour in Iraq. When he left he was 15 hours from a dual degree in electrical engineering and computer science. My son is a warrior. He is a Christian. He has made me and his mother proud in ways not even connected with the Marines. His service to his country endears my greatest respect. I hope that you now or someday can have the same pride and respect in someone the same as I do in my son.
I have the greatest respect for our system of justice. When it is used by a few unscrupulous people for political gotcha points it disapoints me, bet there is a political solution.
I did not ’send’ my boy overseas.
Hank
Repub I Would hope that you used some sort of logic/reasoning system to choose your faith and not just follow whatever faith the region of the world you live in dicates or what your parents and their parents and so on follow
Evidently Tom Paine, you have not read works like Immanuel Kant and the concept of “Leap of Faith.”
To state that “logic and reasoning” is used to select a faith or belief system is beyond laughable.
It shows your complete lack of understanding what the terms involved actually mean.
“When he left he was 15 hours from a dual degree in electrical engineering and computer science.”Posted by: Hank Price | June 10, 2007 at 05:09 PM
Huh?
>scratches head<
That’s hard to believe, given that Nathan’s written here before he never took partial differential equations. That’s a requirement for all engineer majors at WSU.
If Nathan hasn’t taken PDE yet, then he’s got a BUNCH more than 15 hours left.
I’m sure Nathan can answer, but perhaps the Computer Science Degree did not require Differential Equations. Mixed Majors and minors can be very adaptive and often core curriculum often goes to the benefit of the major rather than the minor.
If it was Computer Science as the major, the most likely dif. eq. wasn’t required.
Take a walk Pedant, take a walk on by……………………….
Fill the blog with garbage Clark, fill it up.
The argument between science and faith presents a false dichotomy.
Science is all about testing data and challenging previous discoveries.
Faith is about accepting teachings independent of scientific challenge.
The two are perfectly acceptable, but they are mutually incompatible.
Show up at baseball try-outs with a kicking tee. You may be the best damned place-kicker in town, but it’s not gonna put you in the starting rotation. Both games have their legitimacy, but the requirements to make the baseball team have nothing to do with kicking.
Turn to your faith to find explanations of the inexplicable if you’re so moved. You just can’t call it science.
Teach Genesis all you want in public school — so long as you teach beside it Greek Mythology and the Koran’s creation story and Native American legends and the world is flat and sitting on a giant turtle… — and don’t claim one myth has any more or less validity than another. Some of them contain beautiful poetry, magnificent metaphors, the stories and fables that have taught truths for centuries. But if you pit a tortoise against a hare in science class, bet on the hare.
No engineers take more math than electrical engineers. You really can’t get very far in the study of electrical engineering unless you have a sure grasp of a functions that are functions of their own partial differential.
More likely that Nathan decided for one reason or another to postpone taking it until his last semester — if his dad is correct, that is (I suspect he’s mistaken).
Nobody gets out of WSU’s Engineering program with anything less than a “C” in PDE.
You cannot win an argument with a RAPTUREFARIAN. They don’t do LOGIC and never will. So don’t try.
That’s right Kev, you can’t win unless you paid attention in school.
Try to point out what you disagree with about my statements instead of you eight grade level insults.
Repub, really you don’t use logic and reasoning to decide what you believe? Considering what you usually post that makes sense. Don’t like the way the debate going engage in a little Nic Stealin’ Calling the posters who are Vietnam vets “Baby Killers” attacking another poster because he is in the patriot guard. I can definitely see how you don’t use Logic to decide your beliefs
Take a walk Kev, take a walk on by……………………….
Well Tom Paine, perhaps your right about the insults. But then again how different is that for them to mock me constantly as a disabled Veteran?
And as I proved before by email to Phillip Brownlee, I did not post that about the patriot guard. It was one your Leftist buddies that posted that to set me up.
Either pay attention or stop being prejudicial in your Leftist Liberal ways.
Perhaps you should read LTP’s post about comparing science and faith.
Perhaps you will learn something Tom Paine.
Here is a major hole in evolutionary theory. Hawaiian land birds evolved into unique species, being entirely separated from continental (Asian or North American birds). Good proposal,
Except, how did they get there? First, you’d have to posit millions of terrestrial birds deciding to fly blindly over the Pacific, which wouldn’t have accorded with their natural instincts. Then they would have had to fly 100 days, nonstop. Not compatible with avian metabolism.
Or else pelagic birds mutated into terrestrial birds in a short period. Cool. Let’s see the genetic studies that prove this.
Republank,
“And as I proved before by email to Phillip Brownlee, I did not post that about the patriot guard.”
You proven nothing re that email.But you HAVE proven that you post lies, and steal nics.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_28.html#comment-71041282
Republank has negative credibility.
As I have noted before, Brownlee will not divulge the names of the nic thieves, but it is a damn near certainty that the poster than slandered Raptor was Republank.
He is an admitted nic thief, but WE Blog still doesn’t ban him – I guess he has a few pictures of himself, a goat and a WE editor locked in embrace.
That’s really rich Cosmos, you link to your own post as proof.
If you will notice, the post about Raptor is gone.
I have him the time I post as blank and the time the impostor posted as blank. I asked him to compare IP’s and see if we were one in the same.
I don’t know if he did compare IPs, but he did remove the offensive post by the impostor which is fine with me.
Your really need to stop speaking out of your anal orifice cosmos, the smell is offensive.
Jerry Coyne’s refutation is easily refuted, point by point, by competent creationists. Scientists cannot even agree entirely on what evolution is or how it works, or what to do about all the evidence that contradicts evolutionary dogma, except for hiding the “bad” evidence.Evolution is a Big Lie, propagated by self-important greed, frauds, hoaxes, circular logic, and fanciful flights of imagination.The Bible is true.- – -Most rape victims prefer to birth their baby, who is also a tiny rape victim, rather than to suffer the consequences of abortion. None report regretting the birth, but the rape victims who are again victimized and further scarred by abortion report many regrets.- – -You tell ‘em, Senator.
“…but it is a damn near certainty that the poster than slandered Raptor was Republank.”Posted by: WSClark | June 10, 2007 at 06:20 PM
Care to wager five thousand dollars Clark?
I’m sure Phillip Brownlee would enjoy splitting the money with me just to prove you wrong.
“Most rape victims prefer to birth their baby, who is also a tiny rape victim…”Posted by: parkay | June 10, 2007 at 06:25 PM
You know parkay, I never thought about rape in that light. Thanks for the new insight.
…hears cricket chirping…no response from WSClark…
Nine minutes, Republank? Nine minutes?
Jeez, what an idiot.
But let’s play it your way, PROVE that it wasn’t you that posted that crap about Raptor.
Isn’t that a Republank tactic? Ask the other party to PROVE their point?
Dumbass.
A new USA Today/Gallup Poll has found that two-thirds of Americans say creationism is definitely or probably true. The poll also found that by a margin of more than 2-to-1, more Americans believe creationism is “definitely true” as opposed to those who believe asstrongly in evolution.25% said both creationism and evolution are definitely or probably true.[They are in reality mutuallyexclusive, evolution being defined as random, purposeless, and Godless.]
Sorry, my bad, THREE MINUTES.
Dumbass.
Jeez, Parkay, during the Middle Ages, 99% of the population thought that the Earth was flat.
Got a point?
“but WE Blog still doesn’t ban him” WSClark
Funny Clark, of all people, YOU would be the one to ask the WE to ban someone because you don’t like their posts.
WSClark,
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Feeling it tighten up a little bit Clarkie? :)
Sorry to disappoint you Max, but Republank should have been banned for nic stealing, not for the drivel that he posts.
No one really cares about the bullshit he posts, but nic stealing is just over the line.
But, what where you saying?
I don’t want to see Clark get banned. He’ll go off the deep end and sink himself, and I’d hate to miss that!
By the way, Max, I am still waiting for you to knock my ass down a few pegs.
(And why do you and Republank have such an interest in my ass?)
Why would I get banned, Max? I don’t steal nics like Republank.
Clark, no one needs to knock you down a few pegs. You’ve done a nice job of it all on your own.
And I couldn’t care less if anyone is interested in your ass. Your sexual preferences are none of my business.
Maybe you could get a payday loan WSClark to complete the wage with me.
Of course, you will be paying for that loan quite awhile after you lose to me.
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Republank,
“I don’t know if he did compare IPs,…”
You admit that you don’t have proof that you didn’t post it.
My 6:13 PM link goes to my post that has a link to your post.Here’s the direct link,http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_25.html#comment-70812508
Your last paragraph is a LIE, and you stole the nic.
Put mouse pointer over nic ‘J M Walker’ = a Typekey id of Republikhan. Same as Republican’s posts.
Well, Max, you and Republank were the ones commenting on my ass. If the truth is known, I stick with women only, but you might want to talk to Republank, since he is still a virgin and is looking to change his status.
And I will still wait for you to knock me down a few pegs – it is so much fun kicking you around.
That’s quite right Cosmos and I already confessed to the heinous crime twice. LMAO!
As I said before, if I wanted to disguise it, I certainly wouldn’t have used my Typepad account. I would have logged in using an untraceable IP and no email identifier, the way most WE Bloggers use.
It was an admittedly in-your-face payback for J W Walker calling me “repuke” for many months.
So, what else you got cosmos? eh?nothing?
Go back home and start squeezing yourself cosmos, you ain’t got nothing.
WSClark avoiding the bet.
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Clark, you must have 2,000 posts just this year on WE blog. Don’t you have a life?
No bet, Republank – it can’t be proven one way or another – hence your desire to bet.
No, Max, I only have 1,122 posts so far this year – way behind Republank and several others.
And my life? I love my kids, grandkids, friends and neighbors. Right now I am grilling chicken breasts and roasting potatoes on the grill.
Your point is?
Sure it can be proven WSClark by IP Number.
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Republank,
You proved (by using TypeKey) that you steal nics.Everyone here now logically assumes that you steal, and use other nics.
‘Terms of Service’http://www.typekey.com/tos/“You agree that you, in connection with your use of the TypeKey Service, will not:
(a) impersonate any person or entity, …”
Republank “impersonated” J M Walker, in this TypeKey post,http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_25.html#comment-70812508
“Sure it can be proven WSClark by IP Number.”
And who has the IP number, Blank One? You?
You tried that send me and e-mail and I’ll have your IP number once before with me.
It doesn’t work.
The only ones that know the IP number are TypePad, and they don’t give it up.
So, what is your point?
So turn me in Cosmos if you have any balls. I’m sure they’ll be interested more than what I pay Typepad (their owners) per month than a whiner like you Cosmos. :)
WSClark,
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
How are you going to prove you weren’t the poster, Blank One? Should we take your word for it?
Like I said, prove it WASN’T you.
You know damned well that it cannot be proven unless you have access to IP numbers, and you know that neither you nor I have access to that info, so what is the point?
Dumbass.
By the way, you said that you could get my IP addy from my e-mail to you – so why don’t you so me that info?
I made the bet WSClark and you won’t take it. (bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
By the way, Capn backed down with the bet I made with him as well.(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
You made the accusation Clark, it is up to you to prove it or you can take the bet.(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
I have the greatest respect for our system of justice.Posted by: Hank Price | June 10, 2007 at 05:09 PM
So you agree that the trial of Libby was by jury of his peers?
Well done, Cosmos and WSClark.
The man who made CF2K APOLOGIZE for accusing him of nic-switching has now admitted that he nic-switched as the blank poster and trolled J M Walker (as Cosmos’s evidence clearly shows).
That not only proves he is a nic-switcher and a troll, it also proves he is a LIAR when he said he was not.
Proof postive–case closed.
Talk to yourself, nic-switching liar troll.
The rest of us not only don’t want to hear what you’ve got to say, but don’t believe it even if it happens to be true.
WW……………WW…….AAA…WW………….WW……AAAAA…..WW…..W….WW…..AA…..AA…..WW.WWW.WW……AAAAAAAA……WW……WW…….AA………AA
LL……………KK…..KKLL……………KK…KKLL……………KKKKLL……………KK…KKLLLLLLL……..KK…..KK
..OOOOO…….NN…….NN.OO….OO……NNN…..NNOO……OO…..NN..N…NN.OO….OO……NN…N..NN…OOOOO……NN…….NN
BBBBB………YY………..YYBB….B……….YY…….YYBBBBBB………….YYYYYBB…..BB…………YYYBBBBBB…………..YYY
Actually Capn, you are a day late and a dollar short. I already admitted it several times now and explained why.
But from someone who has no credibility such as yourself Capn and one who weasels out of bets, what can one expect?(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk,)
There is no way to settle the bet, Republank, so there is no point in betting – unless you think that we would take your word for it – so what is the point?
There is no way that either pary can PROVE beyond a doubt that you were the troll.
The point is, however, that YOU were trolling that day, stealing nics, etc, so the suspicion is on you.
But in all reality, you suck and everyone knows it, so you are now back to walk on by status……
Dumbass……………………
Clark,
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Blow it out your fleetwood, Blank One.
WS,
If my memory serves me correctly, the troll didn’t “admit” to nic-trolling; it got caught red handed, and was so thoroughly exposed it knew denials were pointless.
Ignore it.
Clark,
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
Blow it out your fleetwood, Blank One.
Clark,
(bawk,bawk,bawk,bawk)
I’d like to know where Parkay and Brownback got their stats that rape victims prefer to birth their ‘little rape victims’.SHOW ME THE STATS.
I’m sure there are some who would. Explain to me why it’s ok to make that choice but it’s not ok for them to choose a different path?
Parkay is a compulsive liar so don’t expect to get any facts from the fanatic.
It was the Creationist that put Creationism in the fore by trying to get it into the public school system. Don’t put yourself out for ridicule, unless you are wanting to get ridiculed. But then, sometimes I think that is the Rights agenda, seeking self flagelation, or more aptly flagelation from others, so they can show their scars for their beliefs.
This is the thread for this link:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/08/AR2007060802478.html
Shaking my head at so many of you people…
“Here is a major hole in evolutionary theory. Hawaiian land birds evolved into unique species, being entirely separated from continental (Asian or North American birds). Good proposal,
Except, how did they get there? First, you’d have to posit millions of terrestrial birds deciding to fly blindly over the Pacific, which wouldn’t have accorded with their natural instincts. Then they would have had to fly 100 days, nonstop. Not compatible with avian metabolism.
Or else pelagic birds mutated into terrestrial birds in a short period. Cool. Let’s see the genetic studies that prove this.”
Yessssss…..Hawaii is living evidence for evolution.
These islands are fairly young. Scientist believe that organisms first arrived here via sea currents and Kona winds; so only light things that could use the wind for travel, or sea creatures that use the currents, could come here in the first place.
It appears that these original organisms adaptive in many incredible ways, due to to the unique ecosystem of the Hawaiian islands–they were able to occupy ecological “niches” which are not found elsewhere, and therefore we have a huge population of endemic species (not found anywhere else in the world). Many of these endemic species share traits with small, easily propelled-by-currents-and-trade-winds species that are found in surrounding continents. The native trees and plants tend to have easily-dispersed seeds that could have arrived by trade winds.
Now, where’s the EVIDENCE for this?
For one, you’ll notice that Hawaii doesn’t have large animals (that wouldn’t drift easily) that are native. All of cows, pigs and horses here are introduced.
The second piece of evidence is DNA markers, of course. To determine a species’ possible origins, scientists use markers such as COX-1 to determine the relationships with similar species in surrounding areas. For example, we can hypothesize that the species in question and the species in surrounding areas evolved from the same common ancestor. Then we make (mathematically and logically) produce phylogenetic trees with the data of many different similar species all over the world, and we can support our hypothesis.
Seriously, the Hawaiian islands and other isolated islands are great places to study evolution.Here’s a great intro http://www.hawaii-forest.com/evolution.html
“evolution being defined as random, purposeless, and Godless.”
It should go without saying that this is not the definition of evolution.
Evolution has a random component, but it also has a non-random component called “selection”. The net result is a non-random process.
And evolution has nothing to say about purpose or godlessness. Connecting these concepts to evolution is a straw man.
Let’s consider the elepaio, which ornithologists have classified as a member of the family Muscicapidae, i.e. Old World flycatchers. Now, Asia’s closest point to the Hawaiian Island chain, including Midway is 2500 miles.
Small birds have very high metabolism rates. They aren’t designed for transoceanic flight. If we propose that some elepaios rode some natural raft of trees which had flies to feed the birds, the current drift of 2 knots wouldn’t get them to the islands for 3 months. Moreover, they would not be able to ingest salt water, lacking the salt-excretion mechanisms of pelagic birds. So there is no credible scientific explanation for elepaios in Hawaii. A miraculous placement by God’s own hand could put them there, but scientists reject such explanations.
This problem is true for all the Hawaiian songbirds, most of which are believed to have descended from North American species.
The Hawaiian Hoary Bat would have trouble getting from North America to Hawaii, because it’s a fast metabolizer. Bats spend all night eating, then sleep all day. They’d need clouds of insects to sustain themselves, and a lot of places to land to rest.
Crows in Hawaii of American origin are certainly mechanistically plausible. They can soar and passively travel on the wind using very little energy. As larger birds they have slower metabolic rates and can survive without eating for many days. One could conceive of them staying aloft for the requisite four days or so, riding a brisk tailwind from the Americas, or maybe landing occasionally on kelp paddies or logs. However, crows are intelligent birds. Why would they embark across the ocean, with no destination? If 100,000 small flocks took off from North America riding the winds, 99,999 would fly too far north or south to intercept the Hawaiian islands. If crows had this level of suicidal behavior, they would have become extinct long ago.
The prevailing theory that the nene descends from the Canadian goose is mechanistically plausible. They can fly at very high altitudes where winds have great velocity. Traveling with the trades at 20,000 feet, they could conceivably make it from Mexico to Hawaii in less than two days air-travel time, and they could land in the water to rest. They are capable of processing brackish water, so perhaps some saltwater would be tolerated for a short period.
But we can turn things around. Gulls are not pelagics but they can be found many miles from shore, being able to rest in water, and paddle on the surface. Their kidneys excrete excess salt. They would be one of the best candidates, perhaps the best, for being caught up in storms and taken far out to sea. And such events should occur fairly often, given that gulls, unlike flycatchers and honeycreepers, live in and over the ocean, not in the protective rainforest. So Hawaii should have some indigenous gulls, but it doesn’t.
Ship-following gulls that feast on garbage have made it to Hawaii in historical times.
Hawaii is so isolated that even in the ocean realm, where some birds and mammals are adapted to survive, Hawaii only has one seal species, the Hawaiian Monk Seal. Hawaii has no porpoises.
Could humans have introduced land birds to Hawaii that over time micro-evolved to become endemic species? Before Greece existed, Polynesians settled Pacific Islands 1500 miles from their New Guinea homeland. They found isolated Hawaii and Easter Island, two thousand miles from their Society Islands starting point in the waning days of the Roman Empire (How did they do this?).
We don’t even know what their sea-transport capabilities were because they evolved from being amazing explorers to living settled lives, typically traveling only 20-50 miles over water for celebrations and trading trips, by the time Europeans discovered their existence.
If we consider all the bird species in the past century that have been introduced to Hawaii from Europe, North and South America and Asia, it’s conceivable that Polynesians took a lot more than bare necessities, including birds that had several centuries to develop environmentally adaptive physical characteristics.
MPS–
Stupidity at your level is hard to refute.
It’s like the lady who told William James that the Earth rests on a giant turtle.
James said, “what then does the turtle rest on?”
And she said, “oh, no, you don’t, Mr. James. You can’t fool me! It’s turtles all the way down.”
Animals colonize remote islands in many ways–chief among them are floating rafts of debris.
Duh.
Such rafts would also be capable of collecting enough RAIN water which is fresh to keep small birds alive.
As far as how fast such rafts drift, it would vary considerably depending on weather.
The fact that only a few such rafts could make it to Hawaii in any given decade is insignificant when one is talking about geologic epochs.
MPS,
Are we to assume, then, that the elepaio never flew to the ark? Did God transport some there?
As Capn mentioned, there are dozens of mechanisms that can account for the ancestors of the elepaio arriving in Hawaii…those mechanism are still observed today. Storms, the jet stream, floating masses of debris…all are known to carry wildlife long distances. This probably happened numerous times for the ancestors of the elepaio given the length of geologic time.
In any event, can you demonstrate for us the creationist alternative? For something to be called science, its results have to be repoducible. If you can’t produce the data or the experiment to back up God’s placing elepaios on Hawaii, it ain’t science.
BTW, “God did it” applies to everything by that logic…it may well be ultimately true, but again, it has nothing to do with science. One other peculiar aspect of science versus…theology???….is that science leads one to more science and…in turn…technology. I seem to remember that about 1,500 years elapsed in medieval Europe, when the Church controlled thought…and that during this time not much progress was made on improving the quality of life.
Here’s the problem with textbook science polemists: you haven’t done scientific research.
I started bird-watching and identifying species from a field guide when I was six. I spent my first years of life living on the Aransas National Wildlife Refuge because my father was a professional wildlife biologist.
I’ve rescued house sparrows, starlings, blue jays, a meadowlark and a hummingbird. I failed in an attempt to rescue a wounded shrike at age 9, because I didn’t understand that it was an insectivore. It starved to death in three days. As a youngster I had Java Rice Finches and parakeets. Small birds have high rates of metabolism: you learn that feeding them.
Capn, if you had these experiences, then you’d know that traveling halfway across the Pacific isn’t plausible for songbirds. You may not be aware of this, but they also cannot glide very long, they need to keep beating their wings to stay aloft. Which burns a lot of energy.
Flycatchers and honeycreepers are anatomically adapted for flying short distances in forests. To posit that they got caught trying to fly out over the ocean and got swept up in a big, sustained wind that carried them to Hawaii, may make sense to you, perhaps because you grew up thinking the Wizard of Oz was a plausible story.
Have you ever flown to Hawaii? The Pacific is vast. The Hawaiin Islands are an extremely tiny target.
Have you ever even seen the Pacific? Have you boated on it? Dived in it? Swam in it? Almost drowned in it? Watched petrels, terns and gulls set up cooperative “communication nets” in which each bird takes a half-mile-square “lookout position” in a “grid” that can cover 50 square miles, waiting for big fish to feast on, and drive small fish to the surface. When this happens, the nearest bird dives, his surrounding sentries see this and make a beeline for the first’s position, then ones just beyond this see their inner neighbors’ beeline, so they follow suit, and so on. BTW, scientists didn’t discover this phenomenon, fishermen did, and they used this knowledge to get to the fish.
Once you interact with wildlife, you get a completely different perspective than textbooks provide, by passively absorbing somebody else’s ideas about wildlife.
Somehow there are people out there who have degrees in biology and still don’t believe evolution.
Yet if you deny Evolution all of a sudden you don’t “know squat” about biology.
Typical name calling. Not very scientific if you ask me.
In my former career, I’ve met computer science majors who can’t write a 10-line program to save their own lives. Having a biology degree, by itself, does not prove you could find your buttocks with both hands.
“Typical name calling. Not very scientific if you ask me.”
So what is the SCIENTIFIC alternative, Nathan?
Nathan,
You can deny common descent to your heart’s content (nascent poet here???).
Til the day she died, my mother denied that men had walked on the moon.
There are some people who deny that the Turkish genocide of the Armenians, or the Nazi extermination of Jews, Slavs, JWs, gays, mentally/physically handicapped never occurred.
There are physicists who still believe that cold fusion is a possibility.
All of these people are in the minority…so much so that they barely register…ditto common descent deniers.
As a Christian, you are first and foremost supposed to be a seeker of truth. When you put dogma above truth, then you deny the essence of what it is to be a follower of Jesus.
Jesus “denied” the truth of his times because he found a purer truth. He didn’t accept the pharisaic view that purity and ritual were more important than human dignity and human life. He threw that dogma aside because it was, in his eyes, wrong.
A sad thing about endemic Hawaiian birds is that turn-of-the-last century ornithologists killed thousands of them for university zoology department and natural history museum collections.
Ornithologists may also have contributed significantly to the extinction of the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker. Harvard’s collection alone has 82 skins. EIGHTY-TWO. What did they learn from 82 that they couldn’t reasonably have learned from a few specimens? These were mostly breeding-age birds. Across the country, there are a few hundred.
Ahh, to understand life, ve must kill it.
Arrogant stupidity.
Jesus himself, and all of his disciples, were not allowed to visit the inner sanctum of the Temple in Jerusalem. Jesus recognized the inherent fallacy of that dictate. It may have been law, but the law was wrong.
If Jesus were here to today, I am sure that He would also recognize the fallacy of many of our laws as being contrary to His teachings.
Once again,
The irony of those who deny that Jesus is thier Savior quoting him to make a point…
“The irony of those who deny that Jesus is thier Savior quoting him to make a point…”
What’s your point? Do you mean that I can’t read the Bible or the Torah or the Quran? Would you deny me the right to honor the words of Jesus because I am not a Christian?
Since when did you get a Jesus franchise?
I use His words frequently. He was a great philosopher and a Jewish rebel leader.
By the way, Nathan, when referring to Jesus using a pronoun, it should be capitalized – as in Jesus, He was a great man.
The irony of those who point try to use common descent to refute common descent.
Seriously Nathan, you seem to think that someone has to be a believer to know anything about Christianity. In fact, most western agnostics or atheists were brought up within the Church and have done a hell of a lot more soul searching about the nature of God than you’ve done in your short life. You, on the other hand, have never even tried to be “on the other side of the fence” on this issue, never mind any other controversial issue in Christianity today.
Here, let’s give you one to think about. You’re very strong on the trinity, baptism, the nicene creed, etc. These doctrines were formulated before the rupture in the Church brought on by the Reformation…so there was no “Catholic” Church or “Protestant” Churches…just the Christian Church.
In any event,
“it was considered heretical to interpret the Bible literally at times (c.f. Origen, St. Jerome), and St. Augustine — one of the greatest theologians of the Christian Church — himself was in fact the first person to propose a proper theory of Evolution of species. There is little room for expansion here, but the key point is that in ancient times, certainly around the times of Genesis, no-one would have understood what you meant by “literal”; everything was neither purely literal nor purely metaphorical, but a conflation between the two, and this is why the myths were so important.”
So, what about it? Were these Church Fathers, some of the deepest thinkers on the nature of divine, mistaken?? Why are you right?
BTW, I’ll stop commenting on Christianity when you stop commenting on science…you claim I have no “right” to comment on religion…I claim you have no “right” to comment on science.
Sorry, WS…See you made manyof the same points. Guess I was writing as you were posting.
It’s okay, BFAH. We obviously see the issue in a similar light. I may not be a Christian because I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus or the Resurrection, but I do appreciate His messages and the words that He preached.
One of the reasons that I left Christianity is the attitude that Nathan displays – if you do not believe as I do, then you can’t be a Christian.
I saw those attitudes at most every church I attended except Unity, hence I am a member of Unity and have been for about ten years.
BFAH,
Your comment is full of complete and total responses to claims I have never made:
“you seem to think that someone has to be a believer to know anything about Christianity.”
I have never said this nor implied it. I have said that many here have no understanding, not that they had to be Christian to do so.
“You, on the other hand, have never even tried to be “on the other side of the fence” on this issue, never mind any other controversial issue in Christianity today.”
How would you even begin to know this about me?
“I’ll stop commenting on Christianity when you stop commenting on science”
I do not deny science. Yet again, simply because I do not believe in Evolution doesn’t mean I do not believe in Science.
“you claim I have no “right” to comment on religion”
I have never made such a claim.
WS Clark,
Once again, being a Christian is about your faith in Christ. It is not about your like or dislike of people like me.
If you were really ever a Christian, you would know this.
Religion to you, seems to be nothing more than whatever makes you feel good.
Good Luck with that.
Shut up, Nathan, you don’t know a god damned thing about me and my religious or spiritual thoughts.
You tell BFAH – “How would you even begin to know this about me?” – and yet you turn around and tell me basically the same thing.
My relationship with God and Jesus is none of your business. If I considered you a friend or a potential friend, I would be happy to go in more depth.
You are not.
Your cheap shot attempt to judge me on religious grounds is pure bullshit. Don’t even try to decide what I think or don’t think.
And don’t lecture me on Christianity, Nathan, I have forgotten more about Christianity than you will ever know.
WS Clark,
If you are going to sit here on this blog and blame your leaving Christianity on people like me then you must have never had a relationship with Christ.
If you truely loved Christ then someone like me wouldn’t have been able to drive you away.
Did you ever believe in the divinity of Christ? Because you say you don’t now.
WS Clark,
It is fairly obvious that you have either forgotten what you knew about Christianity or simply never did know by your postings.
You didn’t need to inform me.
Nathan………..it IS you and your type that have driven many people away from the church. Fundamentalism does that you know.
As usual, Nathan, you are full of shit.
“Did you ever believe in the divinity of Christ? Because you say you don’t now.”
I said without equivocation that I do NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus nor do I believe in the Resurrection.
That is my choice. After years of study and unanswered questions, I made a conscious choice.
As for people like you – the Bible says judge not, lest you be judged – yet you and your ilk are the most judgmental people on the planet short of the Taliban.
Perhaps if you folks would keep your noses out of other people’s business, you might get more respect.
Until then, piss off.
And yes, I CAN quote the Bible and Jesus for my purposes. I can also quote the Torah, the Quran and the Five Pathways.
Nathan we will just turn the other cheek. As Jesus said “Forgive them for they know not what they do”. When you don’t buy into their points then you are a “radical, right wingnut, ‘Christian’ fundamentalist. I guess only the left is allowed to have beliefs that are sacrosant.
But like you I’m not a Christian because it is a popular position but because it is what I am.
WS Clark,
The ENTIRE context of the verse you quote:
“1 Do not judge so that you will not be judged.2 For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.”
I see you are back to the Taliban comparisons.
Oh yes, what an apparent expert on Christianity you claim to be…
Christian churches are no where near the Taliban.
Are you sure you were a Christian? What Christian church have you been to which was like the Taliban?
Ksgrm,
I know. It always seems to get to me when someone says that they “used to be” a Christian and left because of the people.
“It always seems to get to me when someone says that they “used to be” a Christian and left because of the people.”
Nathan, I know a great number of people that have left the Christian Church and every single one of them says that they have left because of judgmental people like you and your Grm.
Everyone.
You folks are driving people away from the Christian Church in droves. I have never met a former Christian that DID NOT leave because of people like you. If you are spreading the Word of Christ (notice the correct use of capitalization) then you are doing a piss poor job.
And…………………………
“Oh yes, what an apparent expert on Christianity you claim tobe…”
I never claimed to be an expert – I only said that I know more than you. Since you don’t know shit, that is pretty easy.
“What Christian church have you been to which was like the Taliban?”
Assembly of God.
WS Clark,
If the people at your church are anywhere near as vile as you are I don’t think you can sit here talking bad about Christian people.
Oh, and KSGrm, what is that commandment about bearing false witness? Thou shall not?
How does that jive with your lies and making up your own facts?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………..?
Do good Christians tell lies?
Nope, Nathan, I was talking about SOME Christian people, people like you, but not all Christians.
Some of the people that attend Unity claim Christianity – some do not. All despise the judgmental brand of Christianity that you obviously practice. All are disgusted by what the Falwell, Baker and Dobson types have done to Christianity over the last thirty years.
Folks like you have driven thousands upon thousands away from Christianity.
I hope you are proud of yourself.
It is a sad fact that many churches, or specific church leaders and members, have driven people away from the church, often into the “arms” of waiting alternative religions or philosphies. I don;t really know that it is the National leaders that do so, but rather the church member that they come into contact every day. The message is being brutalized by the messenger. That being said, THe message will cause division. After all, Christ was crucified for it.But before being happy about division, or being self congratulatory because you face persecution because of your message, make sure it’s the same message as preached by Jesus. The world will hear you a lot better.
“The world will hear you a lot better.”
The Message of Jesus was love, acceptance, non-judgmental understanding.
The Beatitudes told us that the blessed are the poor for theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Further, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth. And blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. And blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God. And most importantly, blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the children of God.
How do the Beatitudes jive with the messages of Falwell, Robertson and Dobson?
The Beatitudes are the Words of Jesus. How many Christian live by those words in their daily lives?
Nathan,
You said those who aren’t Christian shouldn’t use the Bible, didn’t you? Do I have to copy it here to show you..yes, I think I do
“The irony of those who deny that Jesus is thier (sic) Savior quoting him to make a point…”
So, PLEEEAAAAASSSE have the decency to admit that you said it.
Nathan, I know exactly where you are, religiously speaking: you spout all the “right” words but you don’t “get it”…you have no compassion or empathy. To you, being a Christian is about believing a set of dogmatic principles, saying and reading the proper texts, etc…all with no feeling of awe or wonder or humility – humility that God is SO far above any understanding you so self-righteously claim to possess. You’re so busy looking straight into the “light” of God that you’re blinded to anything else, including the long shadow you yourself cast.
While the message may ge garbled by the messenger, that fact does not relieve anyone from the message. That includes those who do not profess Christianity. In fact, the central message of Christianity is that there is none good, no one. All can only come to the Father through the Son, and his sacrifice. While I cannot know for certiain of the fate of those who do not acknowledge the Son, the scriptures say they are lost. that is not a note of joy or self righteousness or bettter than, but should give those who profess Christ the impetus to reach out with the true message of Christ.As for me, if you ask, I will answer. I should live my life that you will ask, but it you do not, ’s not any of my business, in a material world way.
Christ (pun intended) BFAH, you have hit the proverbial nail square on the head.
The Message is not just the WORDS, but the MEANINGS!
I liken many of today’s Christians to those that Jesus railed against. He said that a (person) should pray alone, behind closed doors, head bowed, NOT in the street, head upturned and arms spread, calling attention to (themselves.)
Today’s Christian are frequently analogous to yesterday’s Pharisees.
Thanks, WS. I appreciate your comments and I respect your thoughtfulness and eloquence (and you can kick hiney when you need to ;-)
Christ (pun intended) BFAH, you have hit the proverbial nail square on the head.
The Message is not just the WORDS, but the MEANINGS!
Today’s Christian are frequently analogous to yesterday’s Pharisees.
Posted by: WSClark | June 12, 2007 at 01:36 PM
Christ (pun intended) BFAH, you have hit the proverbial nail square on the head.
The Message is not just the WORDS, but the MEANINGS!
Today’s Christian are frequently analogous to yesterday’s Pharisees.
Posted by: WSClark | June 12, 2007 at 01:36 PM
sad, but true
Sad, but true, LJ. I have deep admiration for true Christians, but the Pharisee just sadden and occasionally anger me.
Since I have ceased to call myself a Christian, my belief in the Message of Jesus has grown – not the Divinity, but the Message of love and understanding.
I can only hope that more see Jesus for His reality, and not the contrived message that some would have us believe.
WS I made a vow weeks ago not to respond to any of your posts because you are so mean spirited but the picture I am getting of you and BF patting yourselfs on the back is so humorous that I couldn’t resist.
I am a Christian because I believe that Jesus Christ is the only true son of my Lord. I profess my faith in him. If you find me wanting that is your problem and not mine. I have no reason to explain myself anymore than Nathan does.
I don’t attend church because of the people who sit around me. If they are sinners, unlike you I will not judge them, because that isn’t my place. I will continue to attend and pray for them if need be.
WS that is the difference between being judgemental and accepting your own salvation and praying for the salvation of others. I don’t stand in the city square with upraised arms but if someone else feels the need to do that, so be it. Who are you to tell them how to act?
But you do lie when you think that you can get away with it, right KSGrm?
How does that commandment go again?
ksgrm,
Best of luck to you. You don’t SEEM to have very much Christian charity, however. My simply thanking someone for a nice comment seems to have irked you to the point that you had to have a jab. I was brought up catholic, I attended Catholic school for 12 years, I was an altar boy, yada, yada, yada…and one of the first things they taught us was, if the comment you’re about to make is spiteful or petty, keep it to yourself ! I don’t claim to be a Christian…I try to hold myself to this standard. However, both you and Nathan DO claim to be devoutly Christian.
I’m sorry…what do I see ? I see Nathan using an innocent child for sport against another poster. I just sense resent and spite from you…no joy at all in being a Christian.
BTW joy is what it’s all about…Mark opens his gospels with a story about a wedding feast. Do you think that was an accident? He chose the story purposefully to show that being around Jesus is like being at a banquet or a wedding where the best is saved for last. It isn’t about guilt and self-flagellation and spite.
I can only comment on what I read. I read from some posters an attempt to present facts, information, an attempt to share information, an attempt to learn from others and be amused and delighted by their thoughtfulness, wit, and self-deprecating style.
I read other posters who just have their bowels in an uproar. They believe very specific things hook line and sinker; they are unwilling to even ENTERTAIN other possibilities, just for the sake of discussion; above all, they feel the need to jamb a finger in the eye.
Again, from my point of view the first group only responds to the second group. If the second group would behave, lay off the insults and pettiness, and actually try to understand things from a different perspective, then this group might find a receptive audience.
I LOVE discussing the nature of the divine, where God is to be found, different views that open my eyes…I’d like to discuss these ideas with you and Nathan…but you just aren’t there…everything seems to be about a certain narcissistic pleasure in being un-Christian.
I’m sure you have similar views of me, so take it for what it’s worth. I think the difference is I recognize that you can think I’m totally out to lunch…i don’t think that the thought that you might be mistaken ever crosses your mind.
“Who are you to tell them how to act?”
Oh, and I wasn’t telling anyone how to act, I was quoting the words of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount.
You might remember Him? Jesus? You know, the Guy that your religion is named after?
“I have no reason to explain myself anymore than Nathan does.”
Just keep your “religion” out of my public square.
Why back so soon, Rev. Nathan Price of Poisonwood Bible?
Did we not ask you to be more compassionate to others? Or do you live in a strictly binary coded world, either on or off? It’s still fresh in my memory how a grown up Marine like you had to run behind mommy’s “she’s got 6 degrees” skirt. (hehehe!)
WSC,I had only good memories of the Unity Church on 21st & Oliver. Much more than the Newman Center where some members are so virulently anti social, e.g., one had refused to sing hymns written by Protestants, one forbid gays from singing operatic arias, especially if it concerns God like in the movie Philadelphia. Well, at least it wasn’t like CCC with its constant sermons on 10% tithing, a form of indulgence sale IMHO.