Sedgwick County officials rightly have resisted the urge to engage the insurgents still fighting for a revote on the downtown arena project. The arena won fair and square at the polls in 2004. Why give credence to those bizarrely demanding a do-over?
However, a new KWCH-12 Eyewitness News poll conducted by SurveyUSA indicate that community concerns about the arena run deeper than a few dead-enders. In the automated phone poll of 500 adults, 64 percent said the county should hold a second vote on the arena; 48 percent said their opinion about the arena project was less favorable now than in 2004. (Though it’s worth noting that 30 percent of those polled were not among the nearly 171,000 who voted on the arena ballot question in 2004, when it passed with a 52 percent majority.)
As we argue in an editorial today, the poll shows it’s time for county leaders to do more to communicate what’s going on and why going back is not an option.
The public hearing sought by the arena critics would not be pleasant for county commissioners, who may consider the idea next week. But it could provide some answers and reassurance, as well as a more formal opportunity to vent.
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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Whoa, 65 percent of us are “CAVE people”? /rolleyes
IT’S ABOUT TIME!
Eagle Poll on re-vote:Yes 67%No 30%Don’s care 4%
Story posted on KSN.comWICHITA, Kansas, May 31, 2007A push continues for a re-vote on the downtown arena project. Sedgwick County leaders plan to discuss the idea next week. But regardless, stopping the arena project is a long shot since the project is governed by state laws that give the county little flexibility. The state legislature signed off on the one cent sales tax increase to build the arena. Sedgwick County is now obligated to collect it for 30 months.”I believe that to turn around and stop that we’d have to have state legislature to bless that request,” Dave Unruh, Sedgwick County Chairman said. “I don’t know the mechanism to do that, but I think it’s unlikely to occur.”There also doesn’t appear to be enough support among county commissioners to ask the state to stop the tax. It expires December 31st. Some say it’s pointless, because the state legislature doesn’t reconvene until January.Not only that, commissioners are limited by law on how they can spend the sales tax revenue. It can only go towards the downtown arena and the pavilions at the Kansas Coliseum. Some commissioners say holding a public meeting could help get this information out.”It would be to educate people on why we’re not putting it on the ballot,” Gwen Welshimer, Sedgwick County Commissioner said. “It would also give them an opportunity to come forward if there’s something we don’t know.”Welshimer also said those pushing for a revote need to realize it could cause more harm than good.”It could be costly, .” Welshimer said. We might have to pay the money back to the state WHICH HAS ALREADY BEEN SPENT and that would fall over on the property tax rolls.Commissioners say the bottom line is the public already approved the arena. It will likely become a reality.
While I don’t mind a public forum on the issue, and I agree that it would be good for the community to speak on or against the downtown arena, especially since the vast majority of the public have been lost on the true facts about the arena project.
On a re-vote, the group that advocates it has no merit and their claim to have a re-vote should be rightly rejected based on the group’s deliberate lies and misconstrued facts about the arena project that they have been telling the public. You cannot request a vote on an issue based on misconstrued facts. You have to keep the facts straight.
Let us as a community redress our grievances and let the county hold a public forum. But as an informed citizen I look at the facts and let’s put that on the table.
1. The downtown arena from its have gone up from its original reasonable and preliminary cost projections but it is still within budget. Currently as it stands, the downtown arena in total will cost $178 million from the arena tax budget.
2. From the original reasonable and preliminary cost projects there was no official swearing or promises made to any individual or the public. The county made a reasonable budget analysis of the arena project cost. To say the county lied is not true. There was no promise. Only thing they can do is keep the arena within budget and keep the process as transparent and public as possible. They do this by having a Citizen Tax Oversight Committee. Any original budget figures were not nor could it ever be set in stone. No project, small or large, public or private ever works like that. To say they promised you specific numbers within the budget on each line item and any deviation either increase or decrease is not considered a lie or that you have been fooled and manipulated. It’s absurd to even think that way.
3. What is the $201 million dollar figure? That is the total tax revenue projection that the county believes it will collect at the end of the arena tax collection, which is at the end of this year. Their original projection was that the 30 month tax collection will collect $184.5 million; they believe they will exceed that. Since all the money collected under the arena tax has to go towards the downtown arena or the pavilions by Kansas Law, the county raised the budget to the new tax revenue figure. This is not the cost of the arena. It is the budget for expected tax revenue collection.
4. The re-vote group says the arena will cost $250 million, $300 million, $500 million or figures like ΒΌ of a billion and 1/3 billion is often used. It’s not the truth. Those are made up figures just to spark sensationalism to the public that the arena project is a runaway cost hog. It’s a political tactic, but it’s all lies.
5. The re-vote group says the total seating capacity is only 13,500. It’s not the truth. They get that figure from a Wichita Business Journal article back two years ago in 2005 (keep in mind this is before the arena design was done or even started). When the Business Journal asked about seating configurations and one person out of the many they interviewed said that it “may” have 13,500 seating for hockey. The re-vote arena group has used this figure because it’s the only media documented figure that is the lowest., even though that the figure was only speculative, but they use that figure as the definitive number of seats anyways. They are wrong. The downtown arena as stated by Sedgwick County has a seating capacity of 15,000 including over 11,000 square feet of private suite boxes that are not counted as seating.
6. Why does a group want a re-vote? There are probably numerous reasons, but it’s no secret that the vast majority of those who are involved in the re-vote group voted against the arena in 2004. I can only speculate their reasons, but if the vast majority of them voted against it in 2004, then the projected cost and budget of the arena project is not really a concern for them. It is only being used a political and propaganda tactic in order to convince the public to have a re-vote. Their intention is not to have the county keep the arena cost inline or change the location and design of the downtown arena. Their intention is to completely stop the downtown arena project all together. They don’t want to see it happen no matter what. Be it that it would be a $10 million dollar arena or $180 million. The re-vote is to revoke the arena project, is not to revert the arena to its original cost and budget projection.
7. What happens if there is a re-vote and the people voted it down. The downtown arena ceases and every penny ever collected under the arena sales tax must be given back to the State of Kansas, for which the state can use that money for whatever they want and that means not spending a single penny in Sedgwick County. These 30 months would have been a special tax applied to the people shopping in Sedgwick County to go towards projects for the state without any benefit for the people who live, work and play in Sedgwick County.
8. What did people vote on back in 2004. For a 1 cent sales tax collected for 30 months to be used to build a downtown arena in Wichita and for the pavilions at the Kansas Coliseum Project. Set now by Kansas Law.
9. Will there be a special tax or tax increases for maintenance of the downtown arena? No, it’s not the truth, just another lie from the re-vote arena group.
10. We were promised parking and a parking garage. Why did the county scrap parking? They didn’t scrap parking. They are looking at the parking issue and have hired a consultant to lay out the best parking plan for the downtown arena. The county has budgeted upwards of $14 million for parking if need be, but they want to make the best use of the money. Parking garages are expensive and again, they didn’t promise one. They can only study the issue and then make reasonable parking plans, which has yet to come forth.
Why wouldn’t the arena discussion be pleasant?
Can’t people talk without going to in crazy mannerisms.
What’s the point beyond some discussion on the parking plan will be revealed.
Key part of that, County promises surface parking will be free.
Some people overly want that bank account full for overruns.
County has a right to control their bank accounts while not asking for a new tax.
Can we publicly discuss a need to increase seating capacity.
The County can be approached, they aren’t denying the increase in seats. Business community should have a voice, lets create the best arena we can get.
Regional arena’s have close to 18,000 or more floor seats.
That size has the best chance to bid for the better events.
Sports, we want college basketball and those games on national TV.
Don’t we?
KU can be scheduled to play one or two basketball games in Wichita some day.
WSU and KSU creating four team tournament events, downtown.
Bid for the Big 12 or MVC tournament to come here.
If the NCAA wants to put March Madness games in Wichita, we’ll accept those events.
Our arena has to act as regional facility.
At the meeting, those questions can be put to the Commissioners.
If more people wanted the better arena and spoke up about it, instead the County hears a lot of people hating the small arena idea.
Biggest problem is the small arena and some think County is over paying for it.
Rhonda Holeman: I’m shocked at the contents of your editorial today supporting the PROPOSED WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ICE SKATING ARENA.
I would think EAGLE opinion editors would be calling for honest discussion of the facts about the proposed expenditure and waste of taxpayers dollars now approaching 1/2 billion dollars. This for a monstrosity THAT HAS NO VIABLE PURPOSE NOR TENANT.
You say the arena won “fair and square” at the election. Most people think they were lied to before that election. Also is it fair when government gives $300,000 to the “pro” people at the critical time to promote their side. Since when is it fair for government to sway elections meant for the voters to decide?
Even so, the arena only passed by about 7,000 votes … so if only 1/2 of those, 3,500 voters or 2% had switched their votes, the arena would have been defeated … AGAIN.
Now, the KWCH 12 NEWS poll says 65% of the people don’t want the arena. This would be some 109,000 voters who NOW DON’T WANT THE ARENA.
Or, applying KAKE 10’s call in poll in which 85% of the CALL-IN’S said THEY DON’T WANT THE ARENA … this would be some 145,000 voters that don’t want the arena.
Many people say a downtown convention center has a greater need somewhere in the vicinity of the Arkansas River. Remember, sports arenas do not double as convention centers because of acoustics, seating, convention space, attachment to hotels, etc. THE DOWNTOWN ARENA WILL NOT FUNCTION FOR CONVENTIONS NOR FOR MUSICAL SHOWS.
An arena has a big confusion factor because of drawing large crowds and parking for only a few hours per month if that. Convention Centers, libraries and, for that matter, Wal-Marts draw crowds more evenly distributed across the clock.
The problem with Wichita is it has no respected intellectual leadership that stands above the fray to guide the metropolitan area to correct decisions.
Meetings need to be held outside the County Courthouse at a neutral location and be presided over by someone other than county commissioners. Meetings should be held until this issue is resolved to the satisfaction of all Sedgwick County citizens. THEN LET THE VOTERS DECIDE.
“The county has budgeted upwards of $14 million for parking if need be” Joe! You told me that was the operating loss reserve.
“Currently as it stands, the downtown arena in total will cost $178 million from the arena tax budget.” That is 1 45% INCREASE from the advertised $123 million.
“What did people vote on back in 2004. For a 1 cent sales tax collected for 30 months to be used to build a downtown arena in Wichita and for the pavilions at the Kansas Coliseum Project.” Which project was to include 52 million for parking. infrastructure, loss reserve. That has been slashed to the 14 million referred to above.
“The re-vote group says the total seating capacity is only 13,500.” The number I keep seeing is 15,000 for basketball.
Let us have the hearings. Have them at a time when people who do NOT work for the County can readily participate. Let us present our case.
I don’t know what the “group” has; I only know what I was given by the PRO-ARENA people. THAT is what I am using. In fact, the biggest reason the arena passed is that there was basically no organized opposition while the pro-arena claque has been well-organized; well-funded; and well-oiled.
Mrage – you can also address your issues at any hearing. Join with us in this.
JWink,
Its senseless to put Convention desires into the arena. The County is building the arena.
City is responsible to someday create a new Convention Center. Take care of whatever happens to Century II. Its not going to be sold or torn down.
Why in the world do you keep bringing up Wal-Mart in the arena discussion?
Screw Wal-Mart!
On another forum Mrage said “Let’s agree to disagree.”
That’s fine when we’re disagreeing over what flavor of ice cream one likes best. What flavor you chose doesn’t impact my ability to select my flavor.
Unless we’re in this all together, which we are.
The pro-arena crowd, including the Wichita Eagle Editorial Board, thinks they know best how people should spend their entertainment dollars.
Instead of spending them as they please, we must be forced to build an entertainment venue that relatively few people will use, and that many of the people forced to pay for it can’t afford to use.
Now Joe Williams has said that if one doesn’t like paying the sales tax, one can take their shopping business out of Sedgwick County.
That’s an awful strange thing for a “libertarian” to say.
Joe, where is your love for small government? Where is your respect for markets and private initiative?
Now I can understand Mrage supporting all the people paying for his pleasure. “A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.”
The downtown arena is a good deal for Mrage and other sports fans. They pay a little more in sales tax. but get a huge return on that.
It’s totally understandable for Mrage and other statists — Joe Williams now being placed in that camp — to support such a project.
That, however, does not make it a right and moral thing to do.
Ben,
The meeting can happen, but I’m not desperate for it.
Some of you want to rail against the arena plan completely.
There are mouthpieces in this community who have the bully pulpit and can say strong statements about the arena.
Business can say at any time, they would like the increase in seats.
I doubt some top business leaders around Wichita will be at the meeting, so really what’s the point.
Citizens complain, the project will go forward.
Yes, the project WILL go forward, citizens be damned. You are correct on that.
Gee Mrage; why don’t you get all your business contacts to support the hearings and come and tell us what THEY are going to contribute?
“so really what’s the point”? I suppose you have a point; Unruh has already said he doesn’t care about the people.
Anon,
Arenas created by the taxpayers in other communities are celebrated!
That is the construction model used. Temporary sales tax is better than property tax.
Communities without professional basketball teams or NHL hockey, do this! New arenas have sprouted in the four states around Kansas.
Two are in Oklahoma, that’s really trying.
The cities built arena’s and gladly bid to get events.
Of course other arenas are celebrated by sports fans! Why wouldn’t a sports fan celebrate someone else paying for his pleasure?
(Unless he has a conscience, of course.)
You have to understand, Mrage and Joe Williams too, that what you are asking everyone to do is to pay for your pleasure and enjoyment. Until you admit that, you are lying to yourself.
All your agruments to the contrary, you are askiing for everyone to pay for your pleasure.
As you way, one of the arguments for the downtown arena was that it was better to build it than to spend money on the crummy Kansas Coliseum.
That may be true, but government has no legitimate business building or operating the Coliseum. So it’s a false argument.
But I do not expect you to understand that. You are used to government providing for you.
Then, once built, arenas and other public facilities must be used, so that’s why they bid for events. And, I think, cities often subsidize these events they bid for, just as Wichita was paying the bolwers to bring their business here.
Mrage: I met you at last EAGLE meetup. I understand you are a very motivated sports fan … particularly of football. You have a goal of building a football stadium somewhere in central Wichita, probably near the proposed arena, that would serve Wichita high school games, WSU games and perhaps some independent professional team. As you told me, you want it to be built with private money, not public taxes. Bravo on that.
So, what I don’t understand about you is why do you support using a large portion of a billion dollars to build the downtown arena using tax money from people who don’t want it? A few sports fans like you and, of course, those people who are somehow making money off its construction want it.
Don’t you see there are many, many vitally important needs going unmet in Wichita which if prioritized and accomplished could make Wichita a great city? I don’t think you are so tunnel-visioned that you don’t see this?
Where you could make a great name for yourself in sports is to find a sports investor who would buy the entire downtown arena project from the County/City and take it off the backs of the middle-income taxpayers.
JWink,
If the arena is built, regionally sized, it has a better opportunity to be majority purchased by some corporation.
Events defined, would help that sale too.
Maybe the County long term, shouldn’t have majority ownership of the downtown arena. But no one will buy the facility completely.
No company would want to pay the property tax on it. They might have charge for surface parking.
More costly tickets.
Some business partnership with the County has to be worked out.
If the arena is properly designed right now would help sell part of it in the future.
“Some business partnership with the County has to be worked out.” THEN DO IT! QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT MRAGE – DO IT!
Ben,
$75 Million is the amount. What company or individual wants to buy blocks of the arena for that much.
An extra $75 Million right now would create those 18,000 seats. A redraw of the arena plan.
I can’t force anyone to do that. I can keep suggesting its in our long term best community interest to have more seats in the arena.
Some corporation can put more in, what do they get in return.
Defining events matters.
Events that could be on national TV. Events imagined selling out.
We are still very early on this arena plan while nothing has been constructed.
Partnerships can happen overnight too, that quick.
Some corporations here have a vested interest, the arena is productive.
I wonder why they haven’t jumped on the idea, like corporations did in other communities.
Where else but Wichita can people get one -quarter of a billion dollars to spend and then suddenly go silent on how they were “supposed” to spend the money.
It is the mostly the City of Wichita’s money after all, not the Sedgwick County Commissioners.
It was proposed to be built in the City of Wichita, not on the South 40 of Sedgwick County Lake.
The City of Wichita is the 800 pound gorilla in this circumstance and the Sedgwick County Commissioners thought no one was watching.
Let’s re-vote and even if the money is turned back to the State of Kansas. Perhaps some useful things can be done like repairing Universities or giving extra monies to the folks preventing our water sources from drying up or becoming polluted.
Thank JWink for saying that I received $300,000 dollars from the county. Because I have not. But since you are one of the organizing members of the re-vote group, I’ll just add that to one of the many lies of your group.
I have not received a single dollar from anybody or any organization. Hell! Citizens for Arena is just me; A single private, blue collar citizen with absolutely no ties to any government or promotional organization. I will not benefit nor receive any work from anybody relating to the downtown arena.
I do this as a citizen of Wichita who believes in Wichita and who supports added, new and much needed amenities to our area.
The re-vote group is the one that has special ties with developers who may be upset they didn’t get any arena money and government organization, in particular Park City. You guys are the one with big money behind you.
anonymous! I’m not asking you to pay for the arena. It’s funded by a sales tax, which is completely volunteered tax. You can shop outside Sedgwick County and not pay a single cent to the arena. You can go to Butler or Harvey County. Not hard to do or too far away. If you don’t want to pay for it, you don’t have too.
There is no fundamental reason the funds cannot be returned to the taxpayers. Use the model used by the IRS to refund the telephone tax refund. The KS DoR can do that easily.
If you are not familiar with that mechanism I recommend you ask your accountant. And, if you did not get the telephone excise tax refund, I DEFINITELY recommend you ask your accountant why not.
So, Joe!, you claim to love Wichita but tell us we should boycott local businesses. Some Libertarian!
Republican. Only problem with that is that something has to be done to Britt Brown. It has to be done per requirements of the Americans with Disabilities Act.
The cost to renovate, rebuild and repair Britt Brown arena could total upwards of $110 million dollars.
What do you advocate? Closing down Britt Brown? Just not have an arena in our area all together? If you fine what that, then that’s your position.
Maybe the proposed white elephant downtown arena is part of the inherited culture of Wichita. After all, Earl Browder was born in west Wichita’s Delano district at 628 S. Fern in 1891. Earl married a Wichita girl said to be from a local “broom corn” family.
Whether Earl might have discerned his later socialist path in life while wondering the streets of Wichita is not known.
But, in any case, he reportedly left Wichita in 1912 at age 21. One report says he played semi-pro baseball.
How he got from baseball to the political life I can’t find. But eventually he did get nominated twice for President of the United States in 1936 and again in 1940, representing the American Communist Party. One report said Browder coined the term, “peaceful co-existence” bringing the wrath of the Russian premier and Chairman of their Communist Party at the time.
Earl Browder is the only Wichita native son who reached this zenith, nominated twice for President of the United States.
Is it possible a present day Wichita “Browder Group” meets secretly on the top floor of a vacant downtown office building late at night as a full moon rises over Wichita? What business could this group tend to? It is strange that the house where Mr. Browder was born in 1891 was mysteriously torn down a hundred years later in 1990. What other skullduggery could this group be up to?
Remember their motto would be “FROM THE MANY ACCORDING TO THEIR ABILITIES … TO THE FEW ACCORDING TO THEIR NEEDS.”
Ben! Nice spin. No I never said to boycott local businesses. anonymous said he doesn’t want to pay for the arena, as a person of good will I suggested a way for him to not pay for the arena tax, if that is what he wants. I’m just relating the information to him just in case he doesn’t know.
As a good citizen that I am I’m just trying to help a brotha out. Just addressing his concern.
All of these “planned” events are not going to happen with the arena in it’s current configuration.
The NCAA requires a 17,500 seat arena to host a Regional B’Ball tourney.
KSU, KU and WSU are not going to give up a home game unless huge financial incentives are offered, and that can’t be done with a small arena.
Most preseason NCAA B’Ball tournaments also require a 17,500 seat arena.
Even major rock, country and hip-hop acts are not going to perform at a facility unless guarantees are met – again, a small arena can’t do that.
(For you nay sayers – note that I said MAJOR acts.)
The arena planners screwed up big time with plans for a 15,000 seat arena.
It’s not too late to rethink this project.
WSClark! What would you like? More seating?
Sure Joe!, trying to help out. “If you don’t want to pay the extra sales tax you can give even more money to the oil companies!” Like I said Joe!; some Libertarian!
WSC – then you should join us and support re-opening this thing.
“I wonder why they haven’t jumped on the idea, like corporations did in other communities.”
MRAGE – GO ASK THEM!
What would I like, Joe? A chance to have my “Yes” vote back – the City and County “leaders” have proven themselves incompetent to manage a project like this.
Bank the freakin’ money – let it draw interest until a functional plan can be worked out that has something other than “maybe” going for it.
For example, Joe, has ANYONE been in contact with the Athletic Departments of the three major state Universities to see what incentives they would require to schedule a game here?
I doubt it.
Has anyone contacted the NCAA about a Regional B’Ball series?
I doubt it.
These folks screwed up a BOWLING TOURNAMENT, for Pete’s sake.
Now we want to entrust them with attracting major college basketball?
I doubt it.
I actually make sure I buy everything in Sedgwick County. I travel all over the state on a regular basis, but I make sure I spend my money here at home. So I do my part.
Ben! Did you vote against the arena in 2004? Then why do you care about the arena seating capacity and cost, when you don’t want it all together regardless. Your dream is to stop it all together, not to re-open the issue and allow changes to the arena. You don’t want one in the first place.
That isn’t my concern WSClark. That is the promoters, attorneys and everybody else responsible for attracting events or keeping them. I’m not in that business, although I wouldn’t mind taking a position doing that if one was offered, but I’m just your average blue color worker in Wichita.
My concern is that the arena stay on budget within the tax collection revenue and that it’s transparent as possible. The county has done that. Have they’ve been perfect? No! Have things change? Yes! Does it warrant a re-vote? No.
WSClark! A re-vote is not about having to open the arena design again. It would be about having it or not. If there was a vote to say : We citizens of Sedgwick County would like a time extension and a full review of all design, budget and purpose of the proposed downtown arena.
No. It’s: Stop the arena and give the money back.
Joe! I could have lived with what is described in my 2004 document. However, the changes in my 2006 document trouble me. THAT is why I want a re-vote.
Why do I care? Do YOU care when YOUR tax dollars are squandered? I DO!
WHY DO YOU FEAR A RE-VOTE?
By the way Joe!; as the head of a multi-person family and homeowner I bet you we am putting more into your Arena than you are.
Do what the Zoo does; sell memberships. Encourage you and your friends to write checks to your Arena.
That’s just it Ben. I don’t think our tax dollars is squandered. That is a matter of opinion.
I seriously doubt you care about the preliminary figures. You voted against it in the first place.
To be blunt, I believe you took on the role to be against the Downtown Arena for sake of just being on the con side of what I am. If I turned back the clock to a few months ago and say I was against the arena, you would be for it. You are constantly, and on purpose, on the opposite side of an issue of what I am, because it satisfies some one-dimensional world you envision that everybody should subscribe to.
But that being said, (sugar coating) I still think you are one of the brightest, most informed and engaged person on this blog. We are just on opposite ends many times and I think you enjoy it.
Me? All I’m doing is a defender of truth. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong and I’ll admit it.
If they do not rethink the seating capacity of the arena, Joe, it is just going to be another money-losing White Elephant in Wichita.
The City bought into the $8 million Gander Mountain fiasco. We don’t need another, on a larger scale.
No need to write checks for the arena. The tax collection will exceed the arena cost and reserve fund budget.
If you are a true crusader of tax and government accountability, then revisit the School Bond Issue, which cost the tax payers $285 million dollars, yet student achievement scores have not improved and contractors almost blew up an entire school that could have killed 600 students. Check the budget the USD 259 had originally planned for the school bond and then revisit it today and ask me if they lied because changes were made their. How about a re-vote on the School Bond Issue. Why not have the school district pay back for going off budget.
Oh! Forgot. You don’t reside in USD 259. I guess you’re exempt from that argument.
“I seriously doubt you care about the preliminary figures.” I seriously doubt that you have a clue. In fact, I KNOW you don’t have a clue!
“All I’m doing is a defender of truth.” Show me where I have lied. In fact, if the County has a public hearing I will provide you hard copy of my documents; you may then point out my lies.
“To be blunt, I believe you took on the role to be against the Downtown Arena for sake of just being on the con side of what I am.” You are amazingly full of sh*t!
“If I turned back the clock to a few months ago and say I was against the arena, you would be for it. You are constantly, and on purpose, on the opposite side of an issue of what I am, because it satisfies some one-dimensional world you envision that everybody should subscribe to.” Man, you sure have an over-inflated view of yourself. In fact, I recall being intrigued by your tower. I think you and I both favor the casino and Sunday sales. No, Joe!, I do NOT take opposite to you just to do so; I do it on issues where you are WRONG!
And your incredible narcissistic view of your self-importance is seriously WRONG!
I reside in 265 and have consistently supported our bond issues.
As for 259; I invite you to have your accountant do an analysis of ‘advertised’ vs ‘delivered’. If they differ by 45% you just might have a case. Or provide me with the documents and I will look at them. 10% can be viewed as ‘ordinary change’; however if I find 45% …
Sorry WSClark. Gander Mountain did not receive a dollar of subsidies from the City of Wichita.
Try again! Just another myth.
Man! Is everybody just receiving the wrong information?
Joe! Who built the Gander Mountain building?
Key Construction I believe. I could be wrong about that.
I’m referring to who paid for its construction.
Prediction time: WILL THE COUNTY HOLD PUBLIC FORUM/HEARING?
My guess: NO.
Only takes 3 of them. I say: Yes!
Damn Joe, then who got the $8 million? It wasn’t me – was it Kolb and Mayans?
Joe,
Your fine, none of your efforts are helping to increase seating capacity.
That’s alright. Some are working to increase the seating capacity and we’ll see what happens.
Try not believe 15,000 seats is the arena we need long term.
I blame some County people for believing too.
If you want to do something, find out who that “expert” was told the County, 15,000 was enough seats.
Not seats to fit the tax, but seats because this market in Wichita is weak.
WS,
No, the brain trust for our arena isn’t positioning themselves properly to get future major college basketball games.
They hired SMG, who so far isn’t doing much at the moment.
It’s our choice in this community to create those increased seats.
SMG will market the arena we build.
SMG has control of the Coliseum, I’m sure they aren’t jumping for joy over that.
SMG has to decide what happens to the Coliseum. Why can’t the County already decide what to do with it?
Ben,
Was that your 18,000 seat plan, from yesterday?
Supporters write checks to the arena as memberships. If it was $1 Million checks that might make a difference.
Best way to pay for future operations is buy tickets.
A nice investment in the arena, costs $75 Million. Its not too much but makes a huge difference.
Naming rights will be given as well with that amount of money provided to the County.
Gee Mrage, you raise some interesting questions. Perhaps you should ask your friends in the County about them.
I have a GREAT idea for you. Support having public hearings. Then, get your corporate buddies drop a bombshell with their monetary support for your Arena!
It’s a win-win Mrage. DO IT!
No Mrage, my membership idea is to cover “we must plan for operating deficits”. 10,000 members each writing a $100 check will provide a million per year. Kind of like what the Zoo does.
For your 18,000 seats you need a much larger amount – a large capital infusion. That is why I also call upon you to get your corporate friends on board. DO IT!
Zoo still runs at a lost. Despite memberships.
The City spent 8 million on Gander Mountain. It’s in the Council minutes from 9/21/2004:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=6&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wichitagov.org%2FNR%2Frdonlyres%2FA3E4BCCE-4E2C-4B93-B1D5-4352C732CEB5%2F0%2F09212004Council_Minutes.doc&ei=WKFgRvXnNJyCgATziZzdBg&usg=AFQjCNHaNrs6bi0guOeRualF0mycy7sk_A&sig2=iirNZxe935C0EgxRrUXLfQ
Perhaps Joe! but we definitely help with over a million bucks/year in checks we write. Add to that corporations who develop exhibits and we have quite a resource.
The Zoo also serves the public directly through the schools etc so it ‘earns’ our tax support.
So, how about the Protection One Beer garden at the Arena? The Key Construction ticket booth? Fahnestock Dressing Rooms?
At a few million bucks each maybe you can raise enough money to get Mrage’s seats.
Then use the ordinary memberships for “we must plan for operating deficits at the Downtown Arena”
See, I ahve it all laid out for you to present at the hearings – IF they are held!
Tom – thanks for answering my question for Joe! 8 million bucks of my tax money …
No matter what they do, I will not be going to any events at this new arena.I will take pleasure to hinder whatever and whenever I can any and all support to the arena.It will be costly.
Wiseman,
Your a community jerk acting that way. To what end, your glee? Will you council family and friends they won’t attend events?
Its one thing to be cautious because ticket prices, but to not go out of spite, why live here.
We have other event facilities that need to be fixed. Casino is coming, your voting no?
City should bulldoze Lawrence-Dumont next year, Wranglers will be gone.
Why add your two cents when you don’t support the arena idea at all.
If you don’t want to go, skip this topic completely.
Wiseman – I do not go to your extreme and say ‘never’ but I have seen no mention of anything that is likely to attract me to their Arena. And, I will not hinder it – YET. I will, however, continue to call for reconsideration of this ill-conceived project in light of its changes. And, if we get the opportunity, I will present the Commission with my DETAILED issues WITH DOCUMENTATION as well as a proposed way out.
I will also propose my ‘plan B’ for dealing with problems if they insist in forging ahead with their arena.
“If you don’t want to go, skip this topic completely.”
Mrage, that only makes sense if you offer to pay our tax for us.
That’s fine Wiseman. Many other people will enjoy it. So cry a river.
About Gander Mountain: A total not-to-exceed amount of $8,000,000 in bonding is requested to pay for a portion of the shell building construction, upgrades to the building not covered by the lease revenue, amenities and infrastructure, as well as public art.
That building belongs to the city. Gander Mountain is leasing it from the city and they give them 25% of all sales to the city along with paying property tax on the building. That Gander Mountain does over $10 million is sales a year, meaning the city receives $2.5 million from Gander every year and that’s not including the sales and property tax on it.
By the way some of that money the city spent went to parking lots and the public parking garage that is open to all people along with street improvements, drainage and lighting.
But Gander in itself did not receive any subsidies.
25% of all sales? Gross? I find that highly unlikely since that would be just about the entire markup. Are you sure you are not referring to 25% of Gross Profit?
I’d sure like to see substantiation of that Joe!
Ya’ beat me to it, Ben. I would seriously doubt that Gander Mountains gross profit comes close to 25%. Their net profit is certainly far less.
Regardless, Gander Mtn, which was/is a struggling concern, was helped immensely by a $8 million lollipop from the City of Wichita.
Any time taxes are used for Private Corporation’s pleasure, YES, I will go against it.It has cost me money already and it has not paid me back any yet.It does not serve public interest; it serves Private Corporation’s interest.Besides any private corporations or individuals that can afford it, has not wanted to build one in Wichita because it does not have the market or should I say the population count to support it.
Morningstar Stock Grades:
Profitibility: DFinancial Health: F
http://quicktake.morningstar.com/StockNet/Snapshot.aspx?Country=USA&Symbol=GMTN&stocktab=snapshot&pgid=qtqnnavsnapshot
Joe! How about substantiating your 25% claim?!
http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2004/12/13/daily38.html
And Ben! You better hurry up with you going in front of the commission. The window to put the kill-the-arena question on the August 7th ballot is waning.
Joe Williams, why are you defending government intervention?
Where is the libertarian in you?
Joe! I already have done so. Since Unruh has already indicated that he doesn’t care about the citizens I doubt they will do it. You will note that my prediction is “NO”
“Cash flow” (more likely “free cash flow”) is not the same as gross sales. Ask your accountant.
The arena won in 2004. It is now half way through 2007 and not a spade of dirt has been turned. It took less time to build the Sears Tower!
The agreement for Gander Mountain is a WaterWalk issue for which there is a private/public partnership with the WaterWalk LLC and the city of Wichita which began during the Knight administration.
Never said I approved the measure or that I approve of Gander Mountain. Just saying that Gander Mountain did not receive any subsidies. Did they get a sweet deal with a cheap lease on a building they didn’t have to shell out cash to build? Yeah! But is the city making out? I think so. They are making sure that Gander Mountain pays for the Star Bond issue for the WaterWalk and that they get paid back and even more so in a few short years.
Just think! For a Bass Pro Shop the city would have to shell out around $30 million to lure them and even that, Bass Pro would have tried to make out on their end by not having to pay anything or any cash flow deals and possible property tax abatements. Bass Pro sells itself to gullible cities saying that their own Brand has enough attraction pull to have other venues pay for their sweet no-tax, free building deal.
The city was right to scrap Bass Pro Shop for this reason. Would you been happy with Bass Pro raping the tax payers or is the deal the city arrange with Gander Mountain a better deal? It’s your choice.
If it is such a good deal for the City, why is the parking lot always empty at Gander Mountain?
Gross sales is a part of cash flow.
Kev! It took 3 years for the Sears Tower to be completed from the day the shovel slammed into the dirt.
The arena vote happen in November 2004, taken to the state legislator the following year. Sebilus signed it into law in April, tax collection didn’t start until June of 2005. Until then they waited until tax collection begin before they started to assign the architectural firm and we went through an entire year of planning, assigning citizen oversight committees, many public forums about design and location. Property acquisitions started last year and has been plagued by lawsuits due to property owners wanting more money for their property.
I believe the spade will hit the dirt in October of this year and will be complete in 2009.
I never see it empty WSClark.
If you are talking about the top roof of the parking garage, yeah people don’t really park there. But if you don’t know or haven’t notice or ever been down there, take a look at the surface parking lot. It’s actually underneath Kellogg.
That parking garage is for the future use of the WaterWalk, Gander Mountain has it’s own surface level lot.
“has it’s own surface level lot.”
That is what I was referring to – not the roof top skating rink.
Gross sales is a component of cash flow but there are also significant negative components; especially in a money-losing operation like Gander Mountain. So, saying we get “25% of sales” is not correct. I have been to Gander Mountain once – was about as impressed as one of my investment advisors was. Not at all.
Kev – Joe! is correct on the time line – that was always part of the proposal. Completion date has slipped a bit but not materially.
Joe! NCAA in March 2010? Bowling tournament? I am still a bit in the dark about what will draw me there; trying to keep an open mind on that.
Most of the people I know that voted for the arena did not vote for it because they liked the arena. They voted for it because of the threat of their property taxes being raised to renovate the coliseum if the arena was not approved. Even with those extortion tactics, the arena was only barely approved.
Now the cost of the arena continues to rise and construction has not even started yet. This thing was a bad idea to begin with, and I don’t see things improving any time soon.
Most of the people I know that voted for the arena did not vote for it because they liked the arena. They voted for it because of the threat of their property taxes being raised to renovate the coliseum if the arena was not approved. Even with those extortion tactics, the arena was only barely approved.
Now the cost of the arena continues to rise and construction has not even started yet. This thing was a bad idea to begin with, and I don’t see things improving any time soon.
Brian – do what I did; contact the Commissioners. Perhaps if Norton can be persuaded we can at least get a hearing. Unruh will do everything he can to block it though; along with his people like Joe!
I’ll predict the meeting won’t happen.
I could be wrong.
What’s the complaint, they already heard from anti-arena folks.
Some will be there to understand the parking plan. Meeting could happen, doesn’t mean they will take public comments.
What else to defend? Their tax is affording the 15,000 seat facility.
Some effort has to be made “behind closed doors” to change the County’s mind.
It’s not changing their mind, the goal is to improve the arena idea with more seats.
The County isn’t my adversary, yet!
They are to some people.
This arena project is going to end up badly.
It is like your best friend planning to marry a beautiful, but deceitful woman. You wish him well, but you know it is going to be a disaster. You have tried to sit him down and explain it to him, over an over and over again, but he just seems determined to ruin his life.
Maybe you can talk some sense into him at the bachelor party.
That looks to be your last chance to change his course before it is too late.
Before too long, the organist will start to play a wedding march, and there will be no turning back.
Good analogy WSC.
“Why do you hate your best friend so much?”
I think Mrage is right; Unruh has made it clear he doesn’t care what the people want.
But, Mrage – I will answer one of your questions:
“What’s the complaint, they already heard from anti-arena folks.” WE DIDN’T HAVE THE CHANGED FIGURES THAT WE HAVE NOW.
So, give us an open hearing. Let me present my complete information IN PUBLIC. I will give Joe! a written copy so he can point out my lies. I do not get my lies from any sort of “anti-arena group”; I get them directly from Sedgwick County. They will be attached to my analysis. I will also present a step-by-step path out and, since I know they will proceed anyway, a “plan B” to help with the problems.
It is up to the County Commission. Do they want to listen to the citizens now that the ‘facts on the ground’ have changed. YES or NO?
And, as Mrage notes, they do NOT want to hear from us.
WSCO – “This arena project is going to end up badly.”
On another thread Mrage is already preparing to blame us when that happens.
Well Ben, they misrepresented what they were going to do on the arena.
If I would have done what the County did with that much money, you could visit me at Leavenworth.
Joe! If the arena! enjoys such widespread! support, why are we so worried! about a revote?
XXX – and THAT is the big question. With all that widespread support for the changed project they can win the vote and shut us all up. That is all I am asking for!
True fellas: If the white elephant $200,000,000.33 downtown area has the widespread support of the people of Sedgwick County … as suggested by holdover County Commissioners DAVE UNRUH, TOM WINTERS AND TIM NORTON from their perches high above the people in the courthouse … then why not, for Pete’s sake, go ahead and re-vote on the arena in August to seal the deal once and for all.
If voters shout “WE DON’T WANT THIS EXPENSIVE ALBATROSS,” then stop all movement until our state legislative members can establish an honorable way to conclude this horrendous arena fiasco. Legislators need to determine how to dispose of the sales taxes collected so far and dispose of the property purchased.
Most likely a business exists somewhere that would be happy to acquire that land adjacent to the north-south railroad lines. This railroad could become a main passenger train corridor from Newton (Amtrak connection) southward through Wichita to Dallas, Texas.
Perhaps a major import-export duty-free processing station would settle here … who knows? Or perhaps a processing station for undocumented immigrants living in central United States to determine if they remain or return to their home countries.
Or even a private sports investment group might buy the site for … an arena of some kind|
In my opinion, if possible, I would like to see the money collected put in a pot and prioritized by the taxpayers to fund several hundred CRITICAL NEEDS RIGHT HERE IN WICHITA/SEDGWICK COUNTY TO FINALLY BRING THIS AREA INTO THE 21ST CENTURY.
Wichita doesn’t need to stand in the shadows of Kansas communities — it doesn’t belong there.
The Voters shout “We want a downtown arena.” And so be it. :)
Thanks for the vision of progressive people of Sedgwick County. There are a lot of nay sayers who live in the past that are amongst us, but that is true for every city in the country, but we march on to the 21st century. :) We are the majority. We know what our community needs.
Looking forward to the downtown arena opening day. :)
Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!
“We are the majority.” Not according to the Eagle poll. Not according to the KWCH poll.
WHY DO YOU FEAR A VOTE ON THE CHANGED PROJECT? WHY DO YOU FEAR OPEN HEARINGS ON IT? ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS JOE!
I’ll look forward to the opening too. I’ll wait not-so-patiently for it to have sell-outs. Then, when it runs into financial trouble as the County has already said will happen I will laugh and say “I told you so!” And I will do everything I can to see to it that not one penny goes to keep it open.
JOE! YOU ARE A COWARD! YOU FEAR THE VOTERS! ADMIT IT!
Part of the point of Rhonda’s post seems to be, “what went wrong and who’s going to do damage control?”.
If you want to look for a root cause of why a majority a residents want a revote, I think you’d have to look at the project management team. They are dangerously close to grasping defeat from the jaws of victory.
Hiring some people who know something about project management and communicating to stakeholders would be a good start. Not to mention finding a way to address the big concerns that people now have with this project.
How about we build the $123 million core costs Arena the people voted for? Restore the other items the people voted for? Go back to what was advertised in 2004!
TR – you are absolutely correct. People like Mrage have told me that it is MY job to sell this Arena as it has developed. NO! It is THEIR job to sell it. And, now that costs are up 45% they have some serious selling to do.
By the way – all of these so-called “unforeseen costs” were in fact known ahead of time. The County simply chose to ignore them.
T.R.: You might not remember that the county held information meetings prior to the arena election for the “people” to attend to ask questions. I attended virtually all of them. I remember well those meetings were tightly controlled by the arena in-group. They did the talking … they accepted no bona fide questions. Or the old sales trick … do you want the brick to be red or white brick? Do you prefer green or blue upholstery on the seating? Which location do you prefer, A or B?
Never did they ask the crucial question — DO YOU, THE PUBLIC, THE TAXPAYERS WHO WILL BE PAYING FOR THIS MONSTROSITY, EVEN WANT THIS $1/4 BILLION DOLLAR UNWORKABLE WASTE OF THE TAXPAYERS HARD EARNED DOLLARS.
Also in the original Visioneering meetings, attendees wanted to discuss the arena. But the initial Wichita Visioneering leader living in Florida, an apparent appointee from the one world order, a very clever civil engineer with a fog-horn voice — one Mr. Henry Luke — cleverly prevented a vote on the arena issue. He merely declared at one of the meetings I attended, amid screams of protest by virtually everyone in attendance, that the arena issue was approved by acclamation!!
Frankly Sedgwick County taxpayers have been steamrolled on the arena issue.
TR – the preferred means of “damage control” on the part of the pro-arena clacque is clear: “We have our way and anyone who disagrees with us can go to Hell and leave town!”
“Hip Hip Hooray! Hip Hip Hooray!”
I somehow do not believe their arrogance will serve them well in the long run.
My new sites. Update bookmarks.
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Tanks.FaceLift21
Are you trying to tell me something, Lift21?
He looked at the picture of the proposed Arena.
While they’re still cheerleading for the arena, even the Eagle has asked for an explanation of the cost shifts in the project. That should tell everyone something.
If there’s legit reasons for the changes to the plan, let’s hear them — steamrolling changes of this scale through won’t cut it. These aren’t pennies we’re talking about, it’s millions and millions of dollars. Everyone should care about that, even the pro-arena crowd.
Initially the project team seemed to do an okay job at least seeking some input on location and design and appearing to involve the public. Unfortunately even the appearance of caring what the public thinks has gone by the wayside. Which is probably a big part of why a substantial majority of residents favor a revote.
TR – good comments. Commissioner Unruh has stated clearly that while he ‘encourages people to talk’ that nothing that anyone says means anything to him. Or, as you point out, what the public thinks is not important to him.
I’m all for a public forum on the arena. But I suggest that we do this after the August 7th election.
The citizens of Sedgwick County have a more pressing issue to vote on now, and that is if the citizens of Sedgwick County would approve of a Casino in our county.
We need to listen and debate the pros and cons of the Casino. Let the anti-gaming crowd voice their opinion and the pro-gaming crowd.
This arena re-vote bitchfest is only distracting the voters of Sedgwick County away from the Casino issue.
We only have two months before the Casino vote, lets use this time to discuss the Casino. Because once it’s done, it won’t go to a re-vote too.
The “bitchfest” is statists like Joe Williams insisting that the public at large pay for their entertainment and shopping venues.
Joe says that I can avoid the Sedgwick County sales tax by shopping in other counties. Tell me, Joe, won’t that cost me extra? So have I avoided anything?
That’s a strange position for a libertariant to take. Please Joe Williams, stop calling yourself a libertarian. Your position on the arena disqualifies you from calling yourself someone who loves liberty, private initiative, and limited government. You are a “Chamber of Commerce” Republican, through and through.
I can hear those pockets a jingling full of slot machine coins now.
I can also smell the melted plastic of credit cards as well.
The Casino will probably pass and the Bankruptcy Court will have to hire more staff.
Maybe they can use the Arena as a homeless shelter for bankrupt Casino players. :D
I hold Libertarian and Liberal principles.
I am a Libertarian!
My position on the arena doesn’t disqualify me. You only wish, because you hate the arena project for whatever political reason. So your anger is personally towards me.
I looked at the arena issue at great lengths coming into the vote in 2004. I made, for what would be the best option for tax payers.
1. Which would cost the least to tax payers.
2. How is the funds collected.
As a Libertarian and somebody who also personally holds this value for my own financial health is that I never go into debt nor borrow anything (with the exception of my mortgage of my home).
If you voted “no” to the downtown arena 30 months 1 cent sales tax, you actually voted for the County to borrow millions of dollars through bonds that would have cost, by maturity, upwards of $110 million dollars and if taken the future value of that money by maturity, you are getting above the $200 million range.
Think of it as a home. You buy a home for $100,000 from a 30 year loan agreement. By the end of that loan, you would have actually bought the house for over $200,000. $100,000+ of you own money when to personally enrich bankers.
Sedgwick County was on their way to issue 20 year bonds to fund the remodel of Britt Brown. You know how the county pays that back? By property taxes. So they would have to increase property taxes in order to repay bonds for Britt Brown for which by the time those bonds were paid off, the property owners of Sedgwick County just wasted $100 million dollars on interest payments to enrich bankers and wealthy investors. And all of this without a public approval through a vote, just the county commission did it on their own. Including having to close down the complex for 2 years having an economic impact loss in the millions as well. No big concerts, no circus, no sesame street live, no monster truck, no Thunder, no nothing. If you’re fine with that, then that your choice.
I’m never a fan of government borrowing money. It’s a waste to tax payers, because so much of it has to be paid in interest.
With the downtown arena, under a sales tax, every dollar collected would be spent on the arena and pavilions and not a single cent is wasted on paying investors. It maximizes the tax dollar to benefit.
Instead of holding and forcing property owners to pay for bonds on Britt Brown, a sales tax is distributed fairly to everybody, including shifting the tax burden to visitors to Sedgwick County.
To me! The downtown arena was the best and most Libertarian option. The only other choice was to have Sedgwick County permanently close the Kansas Coliseum. If that is what you want, that’s fine. Why not ask the County Commission to just not have an arena venue in our area period. Would save tax payers money.
So you cannot disqualify me for being a Libertarian when what I did was the Libertarian choice, and that is vote Yea for the downtown arena.
Your argument is based on false premise, Joe.
For the threat of borrowing and then taxing to pay for the renovation of the Kansas Coliseum to be real and meaningful, you have to believe it is the proper function of government to own and operate something like the Coliseum.
And Joe, what you’re overlooking is that government has no legitimate purpose owning the Coliseum.
You assent to government owning either the Coliseum or downtown arena by your reasoning.
I am not really angry, Joe. I am personally saddened that you do not see that is not a proper function of government to own and operate any entertainment venue, Kansas Coliseum, Century II, or a downtown arena.
That is why, Joe Williams, that I wish you would stop calling yourself a libertarian.
Sure, lets have a hearing AFTER any chance of it doing anything useful. Typical Joe! And tell people they can avoid the tax by boycotting Sedgwick County businesses. Why should I take it out on my neighbors like Joe! wants me to? And, Joe!, I run one of these businesses. I have no choice but to collect that tax; you would rather see me run out of business because I have no choice. Nice guy Joe!
Joe! Your accounting is flawed. You ignore the reverse side of time value of money; the fact that we pay it back with cheaper dollars. Of course, coming from someone who doesn’t know the difference between gross sales and cash flow why am I not surprised?
Joe! You are a coward! You CLAIM a majority are on your side but you fear a vote on this changed plan. Go back to the $123 million core costs Arena the people voted for? Restore the other items the people voted for? Go back to what was advertised in 2004!
Your arrogance is equaled only by your coeardice and ignorance Joe! YOU FEAR THE VOTERS! JUST LIKE UNRUH!
Two Commissioners were defeated at least in part due to this white elephant. Hopefully the other three will follow suit next year. Sure, it will be too late to stop this fiasco but at least heads should roll. Then, when it runs out of operating money just shut the place down!
The County has said it will need money to cover the deficits. We can then just starve it and destroy it!