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Community thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted June 8, 2007 at 1:01 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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190 Comments
Somebody handed me a “commentary” by Bob Lutz ripped out of the Wichita EAGLE’s June 7th issue.
It probably does sum up the arguments of the avid pro-arena cheerleaders — full of hoopla but lacking in solid reasons to build the white elephant downtown ice hockey arena.
Lutz fails to mention that $250,000,000.23 will be by far the most expensive local government expenditure ever made in Wichita.
Lutz fails to mention NO viable user or tenant exists that might support the huge operatonal costs for electricity, natural gas, air-conditioning, upkeep, security, insurance especially for glass breakage, staffing, cleanup, etc., etc.
Lutz fails to mention the taxpayers of Sedgwick County are paying for this albatross whether or not they ever go there. And that taxpayers will most likely eventually foot the bill for the above mentioned operational costs.
Lutz brushes off lack of parking as though its a minor ho-hum issue. And likewise, the 17% increase in our sales tax rates to pay for the arena.
Somewhere in his “commentary,” Lutz resorts to calling citizens who oppose the arena lunacy “sore losers,” a typical tactic of the pro-arena people who currently have the upper hand against the large majority of Sedgwick County taxpayers.
EVERY POLL TAKEN RECENTLY INDICATES THAT SOME 80% to 85% OF SEDGWICK COUNTY VOTERS NO LONGER WANT THE ARENA.
ACCORDING TO MY COMPUTATION, THIS EQUATES TO SOME 140,000 SEDGWICK COUNTY VOTERS WOULD VOTE NO TODAY. ANY QUESTION WHY THE THREE PRO-ARENA HOLD-OVER COUNTY COMMISSIONERS … TOM WINTERS, TIM NORTON AND DAVID UNRUH … WON’T ALLOW THE PEOPLE TO VOTE AGAIN ON THE DOWNTOWN ARENA?
Somewhere in his article, Lutz raises the usual strawmen: “it will help downtown,” (Lutz doesn’t acknowledge the current outflow of businesses fleeing the advent of arena construction), what would happen to the sales taxes already raised (this would have to be decided by the legislature), that the downtown arena “is an important facet of the community” (says who?).
To Mr. Lutz, I say, are you sports people so near sighted that you can’t see the tremendous needs of Wichita that aren’t being paid for or are failing because of lack of proper financial support?
All political science textbooks mention the phrase “tyranny of the majority.” This refers to a tiny majority grabbing the minority by the nose, swinging them around and spending their half of the public purse as they wish. This is considered one of the problems with a democracy that should be offset by other “checks and balances.” Here the majority has been reduced to a tiny minority that doesn’t want to let go of a paper thin victory.
FINALLY, THE ISSUE OF A VACUUM OF REAL LEADERSHIP IN WICHITA AND SEDGWICK COUNTY. In this arena situation involving huge amounts of potentially wasted tax money … I would expect a strong unbiased community leader to step up to try to lead a community dialogue on this issue to find a consensus solution … but so far this isn’t happening here in Wichita.
Sorry, Lutz, you are not helping in this dialogue.
Challenge to Phillip Brownlee, EAGLE opinion editor: Please run my above comments as a reader letter to the editor on the front page of the Sunday Wichita EAGLE.
JWink…
Ben put a letter into the WE too regarding the problems and the solution to the arena problem. I doubt they will publish it or your letter… Remember, the WE is very pro arena.
JWink, I think you are totally correct in your analysis. You’ve also hit upon something else that is a real force behind the arena, what the great libertarian Henry Hazlitt called the “special pleading of selfish interests.” Bob Lutz is a prime example. Mrage is too. They want what they want, and to heck with anyone else.
What is sad is that even people who profess to be a friend of liberty and in favor of limited government are blinded by their selfish interests. I speak, of course, of Joe Williams.
From Hazlitt: “Economics is haunted by more fallacies than any other study known to man. This is no accident. The inherent difficulties of the subject would be great enough in any case, but they are multiplied a thousand fold by a factor that is insignificant in, say, physics, mathematics or medicine — the special pleading of selfish interests. While every group has certain economic interests identical with those of all groups, every group has also, as we shall see, interests antagonistic to those of all other groups. While certain public policies would in the long run benefit everybody, other policies would benefit one group only at the expense of all other groups. The group that would benefit by such policies, having such a direct interest in them, will argue for them plausibly and persistently. It will hire the best buyable minds to devote their whole time to presenting its case. And it will finally either convince the general public that its case is sound, or so befuddle it that clear thinking on the subject becomes next to impossible.”
Tony, Jwink …
Hold hearings on Arena, Re-vote
It is unfortunate but not surprising that the Sedgwick County Commissioners will not hold a hearing or vote on the current Arena project. If they do so then the massive misrepresentations on the “Vote Yea!” campaign would come to light. Let us just consider a few of them:
It is generally acknowledged that the overall project cost has increased by 9% from $184 million to $201 million. While that does not look so bad it actually hides much more serious cost over-runs. For example, the core costs of the Arena itself were represented in the campaign as being $123 million. The current estimate of these costs is now $179 million; an increase of 45%. Construction costs alone have nearly doubled; from $77 million to $135 million.
These massive cost over-runs have largely been hidden by slashing provisions for other components of the project. For example, parking, infrastructure, and maintenance reserves were represented in the Campaign to total $52 million. Along with providing for needed parking and road improvements, $24 million of this was to cover operating deficits that the County has acknowledged will occur. The total of these provisions has been slashed by 72% to $15 million. Much of this cost for infrastructure is being shifted to the City of Wichita. As for parking, even if the County does recognize the need to provide parking there is very little money left in the budget to do so. Operating deficits are now woefully under-funded. Provision for improving the Pavilions at the KS Coliseum has also been cut by 14% from what was represented to the voters.
Voters justifiably relied upon representations made by Sedgwick County when they narrowly approved the Arena project. These representations have been shown to have been false. As a result of this realization a majority of Sedgwick County citizens want the project re-examined and re-voted. Polls by KWCH and the Wichita Eagle clearly show that.
Perhaps the project managers of the Arena can satisfactorily explain all of these changes. However, to date they have not done so. Only by holding open hearings in which ALL of these questions are addressed can this be resolved. Then, following these hearings, the citizens of Sedgwick County should be allowed an opportunity to vote on what this project has become.
Well, since the area is in a historic district of Wichita, one could ask that everything be put on hold until an intensive study is made so our Wichita heritage is not torn down.
Also, I think there needs to be many Environmental studies in that area. I think all that disruption of soil and structure might pollute the river.
Then again, there could be a petition to recall all Sedgwick County Commissioners from their seats as being unresponsive to Citizens requests.
Further, I think that the State Attorney General would be interesting on who went to dinner with who and came away with heavier pockets.
Some comments; spurred my a conversation I had with a friend at the Orpheum last night. She hopes very much that the Arena is successful because of concerns about the consequences of failure. She asked the question: “will people support the Arena?”
I realized later that is NOT the question. For example, I do NOT “support Century II”. I DO, however, enjoy Music Theater, Symphony, and other events that happen to be there. I know other people who enjoy Wichita Grand Opera. There are a variery of events that different people attend there. So, while I do not “support Century II” I DO attend events that, in turn, do so.
We were at an event at the Orpheum. That event raised money to go toward the renovations there. Other events held there do the same thing.
So, this brings me to the REAL question abuot the Arena: “What will be the events that will draw people there?” Unfortunately, I have not seen an answer to that question.
Big 12 is out. NCAA is out. MAYBE we can convince WSU to play an occassional game there. MAYBE the Thunder will be there. However, I do not see how that can represent the constant support that will be needed to make this thing work.
The real question you may ask is that the organizers of the re-vote group, most notably Dee Stuart of Park City has been completely blind sided by the closure of Optima Bus. And with the article yesterday about Wild West World not even reaching half of the projected attendance, their top Marketing person resigning, and their CFO quit also. And Wild West World hasn’t been open but a month.
Dee Stuart didn’t see the signs and the warning nor did she listen to people who were saying that Optima Bus would probably close. She thought her IRB’s and decades of Tax Abatements and her mere presence was enough not to have Optima Bus leave. She never even thought about it or even believed it was a possibility.
Now she is blind sided the day Optima Bus said they were leaving. That is what I call, very poor leadership. And she is the leader of the re-vote arena group, when she will have Optima Bus leaving and Wild West World may go bankrupt? She needs to stop fiddling with County affairs and start worrying about her own town. Oh I forgot, she ran for County Commissioner but lost. Blamed it on voting machines.
Keep on going people! Keep it up! You’re doing much more harm than what you believe is good.
And as far as JWink? He’s a kook! He believes in conspiracy theories. I especially like his secret society that is running Wichita in a secret room at some unnamed building downtown. Or that Visioneering Wichita is a conspiracy theory.
Do you honestly believe people that somebody like JWink really knows what is best for our community? When all of his statements about the arena are all lies? If you want to follow fools, go ahead.
I’ve made the argument about the Arena, over and over and over again. JWink and the rest of you just say the same thing over and over again. As I challenge each and every point, you never have anything to counter it with. You just make the same lame misconstrued statements over and over and over again.
You can believe what you want to believe about the downtown arena. You can wish for it’s failure (for which it will not be. I can tell you why, but what’s the point, you don’t care about the truth.) You can threaten the County Commissioners jobs. I don’t care what you do so long as you don’t resort into illegal activity as a way of stopping this feared arena you are misguided about.
But the Visioneers won hands down. So we can stick a fork in it. It’s done!
Let us focus on the next big project coming to our area. And that is a Casino. Which has the potential to change the downtown landscape. This is far more important to discuss and debate than entertaining re-vote grievances from kooks.
Since I do not live in Park City most of that is not something I have followed. WWW has its problems; not having been there I cannot really address them. I did note that in the ‘pseudo-blog’ with the article yesterday a lot of people really hammered Etheridge. I have met him but cannot really say that I know him so I cannot address the comments made there.
Yes, the Arena will be built. I have made my predictions in that regard. The Commissioners do not want to hear from the citizens; they don’t care what we say. The pro-Arena clacque will have their way. We shall see how it works out; my question of what events I should expect in 2010 remain unanswered.
As for ‘lost opportunities’ how about the Bowling tournament? How about you pro-Arena people get that for your arena?
Casino … whether it is more important than the Arena is an open question in my view. However, I will stick with my prediction there that it will pass overwhelmingly. then the question becomes ‘where to put it’ and I have decidedly mixed feelings on that.
Communist Joe! You do not serve yourself well by descending to name-calling!
A fun question: How will the Shockers do this weekend? It would be especially dramatic if they lose the first game and then come back and win two!
You friend JWink doesn’t want a Casino.
Name-calling? He is what he is. Calling me a Communist I guess is not name-calling. ;)
It is not true that the Commissioners don’t want to listen! Anti-arena people have been speaking in front of the County Commissioners on many occasions, including the last two Commissioners meetings prior to Wednesday. Gwen was your staunchest supporter for your cause, and even she said there was no public will to hold a public forum on it. She said she only received 3 e-mails about it and no phone calls. So much for 85% of the people in Sedgwick County. Out of that number, you would have think that over 140,000 people who JWink says is against the arena, that more than 3 would e-mail or at least one person would have called.
I think people who voted against the arena or hate it just decided to accept reality and that the arena is going to be built no matter what. Sometimes you lose.
The only person left standing is JWink, who think that his mere presence is going to stop the bird. The Incredible JWink with his infinite power and wisdom. The man you constantly badges the editorial board and demands that his words be put on print.
And Ben! If the city is able to get the Bowling Tournament back, the arena isn’t where they will go. All the cities they go to, they don’t hold their tournaments in arenas.
Further, I think that the State Attorney General would be interesting on who went to dinner with who and came away with heavier pockets.
Posted by: Republican | June 08, 2007 at 09:31 AM
I find myself agreeing with you on this Republican. The city council is having to explain their reasoning for denying Wal-Mart a chance to build at Kellogg and ?Oliver?, why can’t the judicial system be involved in this scam as well. I am ashamed to admit that I was one of the people who fell for the lies of the County Commissioners, and voted yes for the arena. However, I feel like I was conned, and if a revote happened, I would vote no, as things stand at present.
A contrarian view on Casino:
http://wichita.bizjournals.com/wichita/highlights/2007/06/11/story4.html
Casino critics make economy a top argument, but developers don’t buy it
And Ruffin …
http://wichita.bizjournals.com/wichita/highlights/2007/06/11/story1.html
BACK IN THE GAMEOfficial says Ruffin may be able to own both casino and track
None of the above necessarily reflects my views; just noting them.
And Joe! Yes! Calling you a Communist is name-calling! Just doing it to illustrate my point!
Gwen has a point, as do you. The majority of Citizens realize that their input is unimportant to the Commission. Sure, they will graciously allow us to speak. But they simply refuse to listen. We complain about voter apathy; perhaps this sort of thing is what causes apathy.
Yes, your arena will be built. I hope you can make your arena work.
I still want to know Joe! What stellar events can I look forward to in 2010? I have no plans to boycott your arena; so it is up to you to schedule events that I want to attend. Any ideas?
Jwink and BenI have posted my opinions to the articles on the site previously. But I will do it here one more time. You cannot unring the bell on the Arena. The vote passed and the Legislature enacted a law that states all taxes collected must go to build a DT arena. So what to do with the money would be a huge obsticle in this debate. Next, the Wichita Thunder has already committed to being a primary tenant in the DT arena. As for the Big 12 tourney, we will see. Nobody has a crystal ball and can predict the future. OKC has held the tourney for the last few years and the contract will come up again in the near future. WSU will not play there as they have a renovated arena on campus. We will see a huge increase in concerts and other events. Acts that will not play in a 10k seat venue. I was in KC recently and drove past the new Sprint Center in downtown. Absolutely gorgeous. And KC had a venue that was not that old or outdated. I know the fat cow in Park City needs to try to steer as much revenue towards her city as possible. However, to watch the sheep flock to her and repeat her message has been hilarious to watch.
If Wink Hartman has 10 million to waste on his semi-professsional indoor football team than so be it. We have witnessed over the last few days(with Optima Bus and the attendance figures for WWW) just how willing Wichitan’s are to drive to PC for entertainment. NOT VERY! If you arena haters are this upset about “being lied to” then remember this day the next time you vote. But do us all a favor for now…..just shut up.
Mike – the issue of what to do with the money collected has been addressed. Follow the precedent established by the IRS with the Federal telephone excise tax. That was returned to the taxpayers on line 71 of Form 1040. A similar thing can be done on K-40.
From the comments I have read about WWW it has nothing to do with driving or parking. And Optima has nothing to do with either entertainment nor driving.
Mike, I hope you are correct and that your arena succeeds. However, having looked carefully at the numbers I don’t see how it will. It is a rare concert that sells out at the Coliseum; I don’t see how they will sell out the basketball arena.
Big 12 requires 18,000 seats. 15,000 doesn’t make the cut.
And Mike – as long as I am paying for your arena i have every right to speak out. I will shut up when you offer to pay my extra sales tax for the remainder of the year. Unfortunately I have some major purchases I must make in the next few months.
As I noted, perhaps the project managers can explain all the changes from that which was represented to the voters in 2004. That is why I favor hearings. That might clear the air. That might even satisfy the majority who now oppose your project.
It’s interesting how Mike says that no one can predict the future, but there will be a huge increase in concerts and acts. Which is it, Mike?
The bell could be unrung. If the legislature wrote a law, they can write a reversing law, if they have the will.
What really disappoints me is how Joe Williams says “Sometimes you lose.”
What does it say about government vs. liberty when people “lose?” Is that an acceptable way for government to treat its citizens: to create situations where some people win and others lose?
That is the beauty of markets as compared to government. With markets, each person can get what they want. People are not forced to submit to what others want, especially this — the selfish pleading of special interests.
Ben, I would suggest that the sales tax be reduced to one percentage point below what it was before the arena tax took effect.
In that way, I think the money would be refunded in close proportion to how it was collected.
Then, as this low sales tax rate was about to expire, we could apply Tim Norton logic: now the we’re used to paying this sales tax rate, let’s keep it!
(Except, of course, he wants us to keep paying the higher rate.)
I guess I’m curious…if markets are the cure – all to every economic woe, why would there need to be any sales tax support of the arena, or for that matter, anything for which sales taxes are currently used?
BFAH, there is no need.
By the way, it is not necessarily the case that free markets result in perfection.
Free markets do, however, let everyone choose what they want without submitting to the force of others.
That certainly is preferable to the mess that government creates of almost everything it tries to do for us.
So back in 2004 when the county commissioners said” pass the arena tax or we’re going to spend a lot of borrowed money on the Coliseum” they proposed a deal based on a false premise.
The correct thing to do is for the government to own and operate no arena or Coliseum.
So I guess you’d be for the elimination of all or virtually all government oversight of markets since government mucks everything up.
Casino grumblings …
http://www.kansas.com/news/local/story/89835.html
Local religious leaders join to oppose casino
Again, I am not saying this is my position; simply noting that this is happening.
Ben,
They have to have something to campaign on. Campaigning against women’s choice didn’t work so well for them in the last election cycle. Look what happened to Phill. Campaigning against gay and lesbian Kansans has lost its effect as well. Not only are most people sick of hearing their propaganda on the subject, but they’ve found out we fight back.
The casinos are easy targets. The big-money supporters are gambling interests who can easily be demonized. Who is going to rush to Phil Ruffin’s defense?
IMO, it’s all grandstanding just to boost donations.
Ben and AnonymousIts not a one or the other proposition when it comes to booking events in the new arena. Certain acts will not consider venues under a certain seating capacity.
As for the government v. liberty argument, well that can be applied to alot of national politics. Once a vote is taken and law is enacted, then you get to deal with the consequences(see Iraq).
And I really don’t understand the phrase–the selfish pleading of special interests. What special interest will benefit exclusively? The entire community will benefit when the arena opens.
Sorry to hear that you are making major purchases in the next few months and you are going to pay 0.5 percent more in sales tax. I have made major purchases in the last two years that have cost me a little more in tax that prior to July of 05. That is the price we all pay for progress. If you don’t like the county government then move to Butler county. This issue has been so over debated that its starting to be silly.
I am sure that when Century II was built that there were those in the community that saw no need. As well as the big ditch….but both of those advancements have turned out ok.
I can tell you this much after talking it over with Peter Griffin & Napoleon; we will not be attending any events at the new arena. This fear is of change, I like the way the KS coliseum looks and smells…..
Good point about Ruffin Tom.
I raise another related issue. On the one hand I like the idea of the casino being downtown. A few sites come to mind – Century II Expo hall, the Library, The Broadview. Perhaps some sort of combination. I think my interests (Music theater, Symphony, etc) I believe can still be in the ’round building’ but I am not sure.
I am told that Music Theater for youth can NOT co-exist for certain reasons. With revenue from a casino can the orpheum renovations be completed? Can it host such events? I don’t know.
A negative I hear about the downtown location is traffic. While that is an issue i think it can be addressed if we set our minds to it.
I see other advantages to a ‘not-Wichita’ location. Specifically, might a location along I-135 draw more people from out of the area? Or, would a downtown location – near other attractions – be better for that?
Just ideas and musings. I have mixed feelings about specific locations.
“0.5 percent more in sales tax.”
It’s 1.0 percant more.
“What special interest will benefit exclusively?” Contractors and promoters.
“The entire community will benefit when the arena opens.” I hope you are correct. 2010 – what do I look forward to?
I say Ruffin gets to tear the old library down, but only if he builds us a new one as nice as Topeka’s that’s equally convenient to Kellogg.
If that doesn’t work, there’s all that land between the ice rink and the river that is ripe for development. Triple-deck the south parking lot at Lawrence-Dumont, build a covered footbridge over Maple, and you have a site for a casino.
BenThe sales tax increase for the arena took our sales tax from 6.7% to 7.2%. I know because I owned a restaurant when the sales tax increase took effect. Contractors make money for building structures. What is wrong with that? Is there a conflict of interest between a current county commissioner and a contractor? Bids will be open for all companies to apply? I don’t see anything wrong with that. Do you propose that no new streets be put in because there is a contractor making a profit from the project? Promoters make money after all expenses are paid for a show. So, we shouldn’t build the arena because someone, anyone will profit eventually? If we are applying that logic to civic interests than this city will never change. No new roads….someone will open a business along it and eventually make a profit….pure idiocy
Mike – I run a company. The sales tax that I remit to the state went up 1 full % point (6.3 to 7.3%). I know; I do the filings. Check your figures; perhaps your town had a half% that went away at the same time.
As I have said, I hope your arena is successful. We will pay to build it. I expect YOU to make sure it succeeds and does not need additional operating subsidies. The County has said that it WILL need subsidies. That is why they represented to me that they would have a $23,611,000 reserve. However, that reserve has been slashed from what was represented to the voters.
And then there is parking …
“Sales tax term:1¢ for 30 months”
The County agrees with me that the sales tax is 1%.
Ben,
You have an interesting idea there about the Orpheum. I think the children music theater at Orpheum is an excellent idea.
In regards to your discussion about traffic, one thing I would like to note, downtown didn’t have as many traffic problems when main street was one way south. We tend to run into a lot of people going the wrong way on one way streets and all I hear from non-downtown workers/residents is turn the one way’s to two ways. I think if that is done, downtown is done. Its been proven that more traffic can be passed on one way streets than on two way streets.
I agree with you, a combination of Broadview, CII, Library, Century Plaza and the Hyatt would be the best bet for a Casino. I could easily see them adding a parking garage between Century Plaza and the Library and CII.
Tom,
I see a library going in Delano or possibly south of Kellogg… I think a site near LD Stadium, Ice Rink or Exploration place would be one of the best locations.
“So I guess you’d be for the elimination of all or virtually all government oversight of markets since government mucks everything up.”
Absolutely.
“The entire community will benefit when the arena opens.” That’s a huge leap of faith that can’t be supported by evidence, unless there is something I am not aware of. And I’ve read a lot.
Not everyone would agree that Century II has turned out OK.
“Do you propose that no new streets be put in because there is a contractor making a profit from the project?” If you’re talking about building streets that serve a particular narrow purpose, such as the streets in a new neighborhood, then the homeowners, not the entire city, pay for those. Otherwise, roads are largely paid for by the motor fuel tax, in an attempt to ask those who use a resource to pay for it.
Library – how about the Watkins steel property opposite Exploration place?
If you have been to the casino in KC then you are aware that the footprint necessary is huge. You are going to need a very large parcel of land to build the casino on. The parcels mentioned on this thread don’t even come close to being large enough to build a casino.
Ben,
The problem with the Watkins Steel site is that it’s not convenient to Kellogg, and it’s not convenient to the bus terminal. If the public library gets moved out of downtown, it becomes much less accessible to its patrons, and that would be a bad thing, IMO.
I have been there. I have also been to the casino in Montreal and know that, with a different design approach, the footprint is not as large.
The combo Century II/Library is a pretty big footprint. Especially if the Broadview is included.
Otherwise I guess it has to go out of town.
Tom – valid point about bus; not Kellogg though. Exit just west of the river, double back to McLean and a straight shot. Or up Edwards (I think) and enter the back. (operating without a map)
There’s that big empty parcel at Waterman and Main. You know, the promised “Waterwalk” that’s nothing more than blowing dust and dirt. Perfect spot for a casino _or_ a new library.
Tom – casino yes, library I still like west of river.
My thinking is this: “Adult” stuff in the general area River-Market-Kellogg-First. “Family” stuff west near McLean.
Ben… Agreed. I would like to create a bit of centricity between Exploration Place, LD Stadium and the Ice Rink. I’d like to turn McLean between Seneca and Kellogg into a family orientated place where you could park at one place, go up and down the river to the other places. I would like to see better access to/from the river to/from each of those locations.
We’re going to drop $250 extra large and the City and County don’t know who the tenants are going to be for the White Pachyderm?
Call me silly, but should someone have made a few phone calls? I mean with all that money available from the taxpayers, you would think that a couple interstate calls would have been in order. They could have even made a few calls in state and even in the city.
Now days, cell phones with unlimited long distance are pretty cheap. Perhaps the arena planners could have invested in a plan with Verizon or even Cricket.
You know, a few calls to see if any of the proposed scenarios for the arena would actually be possible.
NCAA? Nope, not enough seats.
Thunder? Big maybe.
KSU and KU? Fork over the big bucks to get them to give up their home games.
WSU? The have their own arena and a damned nice one at that.
Ice Capades? Well, maybe that one would pay off – and fill half the arena.
Nice going guys – did you all go to the George W Bush School for Great Decision Making?
You sound surprised by this? You do realize, we live in Wichita Kansas, the land of special interests and the many paying for the toys of a few….
Naw, Tony, no surprises under this tree. I would have thought, however, that SOMETHING would have been lined up before we got this far.
When you look at this from a business standpoint, it comes down to virtual insanity. It’s not that they plan well enough, they didn’t plan at all.
Crazy.
If they tried to pass this off as a capital improvement plan in business, the Controller would have dragged them out in the parking lot and beat the shit out of them.
Instead, they are spending our money like little kids at a candy store.
The arena conversations are going around in circles.
The best opportunity to decrease future operation deficits is for “business capital” to be put into the arena. That’s the only way increased seats will happen.
If people want to stay argumentative, forget oppurtunity still exists, they can accept a 15,000 seat arena and be mad about it.
I don’t accept it and trying to do some things to improve the arena.
Bob Lutz for many months said nothing about seats and I found that irritating.
He’s right saying, this community will regret constructing a smaller arena.
That allows me to put those statements in Bob Hanson’s face. Their good friends.
Questions directly to HOK, what would be an estimate cost to redraw the arena with 18,000 seats. The person I contacted in Kansas City hasn’t answered yet.
Its worth trying than asking Bob Hanson to find out.
The County can be approached with business capital. What corporation does it, I don’t know yet. Many don’t accept a 15,000 seat arena.
SMG silence allows haters to not imagine what events the arena is going to bid for.
The arena is going to cost more, but the tax isn’t going to be extended. It could take more months to build.
The question of redraw is out there, how the process will work,is unknown today.
The County can’t publicly take the position, their tax won’t pay for the arena we really need.
When the tax is done, they could make moves a lot better.
They could hold up, not constructing anything the rest of this year. They could clear the site, ready the area for construction.
I don’t control how the County will brake this project.
It can only be conversations and deals made in the background, so the correct drawing, with 18,000 seats gets built.
I’m glad the opportunity exists, we’re getting a downtown arena. It has to the right size for our long term benefit.
No one understands the parking issue until the study comes out.—–
Tony – an expansion of the west bank idea. Think about the triangle of land bounded by the River, Seneca, Kellogg. Add a library as mentioned. Might there be a way to relocate the Museum of World Treasures there?
Then, as also discussed above, Casino east bank area.
“No one understands the parking issue until the study comes out.”
Mrage – you have a TOTAL of $14,610,000 for parking, infrastructure, maintenance reserve. That had been mis-represented to the voters as totalling $52,011,000.
So, even when the study comes out how do you pay for it?
“business capital”? What’s that?
Ben,
Those numbers are useless, because its a fluid process how the County will move their money around.
Be happy some money for parking exists, its better than nothing in account.
I have no idea about surface parking, what’s been destroyed to create new lots.
The biggest cost could be a new parking garage. Has any business been approached with that oppurtunity? Who says the County will pay for a new parking garage?
County has to negiotiate parking garage costs are in the arena tickets. Some people could save money by purchasing a ” club level”.
Some people will make the instant decesion using a parking garage because of rain. That parking cost can’t be too much.
Surface parking should be free downtown for arena events. County or city has negotiate with businesses down there, if it comes to that.
Business capital is a lot of things. Cash is one, but some business has marketing abilities on their own. A lot of ways to partner in the arena idea, its not just cash.
To get HOK doing anything it takes money. They are eager to make more money at any time.
Mrage – I know what business capital is. I was being sarcastic – there is none with this project.
Why should I be happy there is a little money left for parking etc? It was represented to me that was part of the package. That representation should be held to.
“Those numbers are useless”
So, when you go to the store to buy something that was advertised at $10 and they charge you $20 that is OK because prices are “fluid”? No, that is considered unethical business practices.
If I own a parking lot exactly how does the County negotiate with me to allow you to park your car on my private property? Is the County going to pay me?
“Has any business been approached with that oppurtunity?” YOU TELL ME. YOU CALIM TO HAVE THOSE CONNECTIONS.
I have some ideas on how to address parking; however it is not my job to implement them.
Ben,
I don’t know who runs the parking garages that exist right now. That’s not my interest.
Don’t ask me a question about business parking lots downtown, how can I answer that.
The study will do that, right?
Like I said, you can be angry and upset about the 15,000 seat arena, all the costs related to it.
I accept opportunity still exists to improve the arena.
What the amount was when we voted, doesn’t matter to me today.
Long as we get the proper sized arena and somehow they afford it.
The community affords it if event tickets don’t cost too much.
There is opportunity. Believe in it or not.
Ben,
I don’t know who runs the parking garages that exist right now. That’s not my interest.
Don’t ask me a question about business parking lots downtown, how can I answer that.
The study will do that, right?
Like I said, you can be angry and upset about the 15,000 seat arena, all the costs related to it.
I accept opportunity still exists to improve the arena.
What the amount was when we voted, doesn’t matter to me today.
Long as we get the proper sized arena and somehow they afford it.
The community affords it if event tickets don’t cost too much.
There is opportunity. Believe in it or not.
Nor is it the arena supporters job to ensure it is successful.
Mike – then whose job is it to make it work? It better be SOMEBODY’S job!
Ben, you’re struck at the heart of the matter. Who do we want to rely on to do the job?
When we rely on government, we often get solutions that no one is pleased with.
And the motivations of bureaucrats spending other peoples’ money, the time frame of politicians being only until the next election, the selfish pleading of special interests like Mrage’s, these are things that are often not compatible with building long-term value.
Consider the loss of the bowling tournament. The stakeholders — the people (whoever they are) that would receive the purported $100 million economic benefit — I wonder how they feel now about relying on government and its surrogates for economic development?
That is the spirit guys! The discussion should be towards the casino now.
I love it that we are now talking about where to put a new downtown library. Because that is going to be a huge issue for our community. That is in fact if the Kansas Lottery Commission will choose the Canadian investors Casino.
I think Park City is now out of the running for a Casino. With Dee Stuart showing herself as a huge failure in Park City and being a thorn for the county and the city of Wichita, I doubt the Lottery Commission will choose that site. Sorry Bob Knight!
But we need to find out what the plans are with the Library. I know several years ago they have already been desiring to build a new one, but I don’t know if there is any solid plans or architectural renderings yet. Maybe it’s too soon.
Anon,
I have no idea where you classify yourself. Doubting civic ownership by the governments.
Disbelieving in Century II is insane. Every community has a vested interest to create a event facility like that.
It improved look of this city with an indentifiable landmark.It is a success. It can be improved or a new one made. The City is right to own a convention center.
The County has the right to create a gathering and event facility like the arena. Like the Coliseum when it was created. Time has moved on, the Coliseum is reaching end of its life.
That question hasn’t been answered, what happens to the facility. County did hire SMG to make one.
Accept free parking when you visit the library or zoo. Can find street parking visiting the City or County buildings.
When you visit the Coliseum, you had free parking since it opened. The idea charging for parking with gates was dumb.
County is increasing ticket prices to cover the costs of running the Coliseum as they move to create the downtown arena.
The Coliseum was a moderate success in this community, the events it had.
We want larger event possibilities now. Its better to try the location of downtown.
Those facilities require citizen participation and desire. We have to count on ourselves to make those facilities succeed, by going!
What events does the community want. The County and City are trying to provide places to see those kind of events.
Yes Gambling Casinos, I want to be positive.
I’m attending classes now to become a certified counselor on Gambling debt.
You see, when Judges in bankruptcy court get a hold of a case where gambling is the cause, he will assign them to a counselor for multiple hours.
I’ll be right there to cash in at my $300.00/hour fee. :)
Joe! I have been discussing the library and possible casino options for years. One item of concern does not remove other items of concern.
I wouldn’t count out Park City for a casino. Note Mike’s claim above that it requires a ‘huge footprint.’ I’m not sure you can get that downtown. However, my idea of a “Montreal style” facility would work downtown.
Mrage – “Those facilities require citizen participation and desire. We have to count on ourselves to make those facilities succeed, by going!” BY GOING TO WHAT? JUST TO LOOK AT THE BUILDING? WHAT EVENTS?
Ben,
That Canadian group thinks enough space behind exists Century II to construct their casino.
Walking through the front doors along the river, sounds great.
But what drunk or sorrowful casino loser will jump in the river. They will need staff to make sure people don’t. Can be saved quickly if they do or ordered out.
You go to Century II events, be entertained, sounds like anon doesn’t.
SMG hasn’t told you want events will happen in the arena. I do blame them for that silence.
We haven’t given SMG an arena they can market yet. It will be better for them and us to bid for bigger events, like college basketball post season tournaments, with 18,000 seats.
Regular season games from WSU, KSU and KU, all given incentive to play downtown. For WSU and KSU, more seats if they host games there. Four team tournaments.
KU can play one off campus game in Wichita or many as they like in future years. Its up to them. But one game a year should be doable, with a 18,000 seat arena and the game on TV.
Our community continually striving to improve ourselves is a good thing.
County and SMG should have pride in their promotions when they bid for events.
City didn’t seem to have pride trying to keep the Bowling Tournament.
Too much unsettled with WaterWalk, a casino vote, the ice rink and its problems. Lawrence-Dumont stadium issues, the NBC tournament negotiations.
Some new baseball organization. They need chair back seats for all, a person they hired to create an opinion on the stadium, told them that.
City needs more successful things to get going in the facilities they own.
Mrage – I agree that a casino can be put there – I MADE THAT CLEAR! I simply noted that the huge footprint type would not work well there and we cannot rule out a ’suburban’ site.
I think the Canadian group wants to do a casino similar to the one in Montreal I visited. That is why I visited that casino; RESEARCH! See Joe!, I have been looking at this issue for some time. I hope they do that kind of casino; I think it would be preferable to a ‘big-box’ type.
“We haven’t given SMG an arena they can market yet.” HUH?! Isn’t that what we are supposedly building? If they can’t market the damn thing then why are we doing this?
“Regular season games from WSU, KSU and KU” AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN. Why should they want to play in your Arena; they have their own homes.
“SMG hasn’t told you want events will happen in the arena. I do blame them for that silence.” GEE, PERHAPS SOMEBODY SHOULD THINK ABOUT THAT!
Ben,
What you believe isn’t going to happen is meaningless.
Why did Missouri host games in Kemper? It had more seats than their campus arena.
Now Missouri has a better campus arena, wonder if they will play in the Sprint Center.
Does KU have scheduling issues if the Sprint Center gets a NBA team to relocate there? Both college and NBA happen at the same time.
Downtown arena provides more money for games if WSU and KSU play downtown. They aren’t charged to play there.
They are offered the TV opportunity with four team tournaments. SMG has to create those on national TV projects.
KU has many former students, graduates and supporters living in Wichita. They aren’t charged to play downtown either.
They are given the same TV opportunity to add another location, where KU fans can see them live.
Why wouldn’t fans of KU down here not want to road trip all the time. Some KU fans might want to visit Wichita.
Enough locally will sell out the downtown arena out if KU is playing there.
Mrage – all of your ‘maybes’ are meaningless. And, if they don’t pay to play in the Arena then how will the Arena pay its bills? That place will be expensive to run.
“SMG has to create those on national TV projects.” THEN YOU BETTER BE TELLING SMG THAT.
Ben,
That’s why free standing arena’s are built, to invite teams to play there and make more money.
Its unreasonable WSU and KSU would turn down playing downtown and they make more money doing it.
KU rewards fans living down here, they play downtown one game a year. Off campus are not road games.
They make more money at off campus facilities than home games.
Incentive packages are offered.
SMG knows their sports marketing business and how to do it.
“Enough locally will sell out the downtown arena out if KU is playing there.”
That is a huge “if” Mrage. Allen Fieldhouse is a big plus for KU B’Ball due to the students and alumni cheering. During a game in Lawrence, most of the crowd are students. The likelihood of them making the trek to Wichita is relatively small – hotels, travel, etc. – and KU would lose part of the homecourt advantage.
In order for any of the three schools in the state to give up a home game, they would have to receive large incentives.
But even IF the arena could draw KU or KSU, that would be just one or two nights.
What about the other 364 days of the year?
Before the arena is built, the City and County should have at least one regular tenant lined up. So far, everything has been wishful thinking.
WS,
Students can afford tickets adults can’t. Is that right?
What college student doesn’t like to road trip and have no concern of staying in a hotel!
Adults will fill our arena if KU is playing, believe me. Especially if they are playing some “name” major college.
Lets maximize the events that could fill the arena.
Rest of the year? A variety of events could happen in the arena.
I can’t answer the complete yearly schedule, thats SMG’s job.
How about college basketball is the tenant.
Rest of the time, the arena will try to stay busy.
I reject completely the arena is an ice rink.
At least if they had the Thunder, the arena would have about 6,000 tickets sold for 40-42 nights per year, plus the playoffs, assuming they made it.
College B’Ball would be great for the arena, but who will play and for how many nights?
The three majors in state are not about to give up their home games, so we would be left with small school from the area.
That isn’t going to pay the bills.
How about a mega-church on wednesday nights and sundays? That’d really pack ‘em in…where we could keep an eye on them….
I wonder if Mega-Church participants would get free gambling token chips for attendance?
Yes, for use in the Christian slot machines…
You know the ones with things other than fruits on the dials…maybe for 3 fetuses you win an unwanted child…how about 3 “fruits” and you have to have a gay person home for dinner?
“…and you have to have a gay person home for dinner?”
Posted by: BFAH | June 08, 2007 at 06:56 PM
Just as long as there were no fetuses brought to the dinner table.
WS,
Please wake up!
The Thunder are scheduled to play downtown. Maybe a higher level of minor league hockey could be found if there is enough new fans.
Thunder is in the third level of minor league hockey. You think that playoff and championship is great? Not really.
That league sells fights.
If they fail downtown, they might want to keep Wink Hartman’s small arena as backup ice.
KU would be the only one giving up a home game, they likely will be adding another game to their schedule.
They are strong enough for one game to happen as an event.
WSU and KSU would be offered four team tournaments to play in.
One of them would host that kind of tournament every year. Doubtful both would do it in the same year.
If WSU and KSU want to make more money for a regular season game, against a non conference team, they will.
Maybe teams want to play WSU if they don’t desire a game in Koch Arena.
Visiting teams make more money in a larger arena.
“Incentive packages are offered.”
Mrage, you are just full of ideas of how to take money from the public at large and give it to special interests, aren’t you?
And you’re not even ashamed of it.
“How about college basketball is the tenant.” WSU, KU, KSU, NEWMAN, FRIENDS ALL HAVE THEIR OWN ARENAS. THERE IS NO WAY THEY WILL WANT TO BE IN YOUR ARENA.
“Maybe teams want to play WSU if they don’t desire a game in Koch Arena.” (a) WHY? and (b) WHY WOULD WSU GO ALONG?
“Lets maximize the events that could fill the arena.” SUCH AS WHAT?
“Visiting teams make more money in a larger arena.” NOT IF COSTS ARE HIGHER! If we do these for free as you suggest how are you going to pay your bills?
Mrage! Basketball isn’t going to do crap for the downtown arena. Even if you can get a precious NCAA tournament, you are talking about maybe once every four years at the most per cycle.
What is going to make the downtown arena a success is the concerts, shows and circuses. That is what brings people consistently to arena venues.
I know you have community pride and would love an NCAA tournament here. But it isn’t the make all, break all dude! I say leave it alone. Just let it go. We have our own basketball arena for WSU and it’s going quite well.
It’s time for us to move on to the next project.
No NCAA Regional tournament games unless the arena seats 17,500 – NCAA rules.
Actually WSCLark! 1st and second round is 12,000.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm………………. My understanding is that they require 17,500 for a Regional for D-1.
They have had some in smaller venues that were ‘grandfathered’ from earlier agreements. However, new sites about 17K.
Joe! A Jackson says we do not get a regional or sub-regional. MAYBE we get a play-in game.
Joe! At last something we agree on with the Arena. B-ball ain’t gonna carry it. But I think you are dreaming when you see all these sell-out concerts. I HOPE you are correct but my experience tells me otherwise.
I still want to know – 2010 what do I look for? By what criterian do I judge your Arena?
Ben,
When WSU plays at Koch is the game on TV anywhere? No.
Downtown arena gives WSU an opportunity to have “home” game on cable against a higher ranked or major college team.
WSU will have every game they want at Koch. Nothing will detract from their schedule.
Gregg Marshall is coach, remember. Won’t WSU take on any challenge. At Winthrop he did. Won’t Schaus take the money! Yes!
Where is the costs that are higher for WSU? The bus ride downtown?
Don’t paying staff at Koch cost every game?
So they have a game downtown, without paying Koch’s employees that night. More profit.
Joe,
You did your job, talking in front of the Commission. Defending the small arena here.
Others will try to improve it, with more seats. They will talk in front of the commission. I’m not likely to.
Bob Hanson told me today, he’s not against a larger arena with more seats. He didn’t admit that until his friend Bob Lutz said the same thing publicly.
County has to be approached with a plan.
I don’t have any idea what events SMG will do outside of basketball.
Are concerts, meetings, shows and circus saving other arena’s? If they do, great.
We need college basketball to be played in the arena every year. Those games on TV.
Post season tournaments whenever we can win those bids.
Do move on to the Casino, where we have no business to discuss its location.
It’s going where the developers want it. Our vote doesn’t pick which developer wins the state contract.
We voted to place the arena, downtown, that’s different. That has allowed us to argue about it.
Ask the Library if they have drawings of new building. Ask them a desired location. Its rumor they want the Watkins Steel lot.
Only one casino plan I’ve heard, will purchase the Library building.
I can only vote for the casino in Aug. and watch what happens. Where is the choice beyond that?
Fix Cowtown?
Lawrence-Dumont. Hold City over the coals until they fix the stadium completely. It’s not fixed until every fan has a chair back seat.
The Boathouse problem settled? Discuss where a new boathouse would be, with a dock on the river.
Instead of building your needle, figure out a way to build the second Epic Tower. Won’t views from that tall building see well enough area downtown?
That’s more valuable to have, more pride in this community created.
Twin towers as they should have been.
A really aggessive developer would change exterior of those buildings in some way.
What is wrong with the current downtown library that would require it to be torn down and replaced?
It is a fine facility and is doing well. It may need a few upgrades here and there – but there is no reason to spend money when there are so many other needs.
Let’s start with a homeless shelter, treatment facility and job placement center.
Library wants a larger place because they have too much stuff. They want a different location, without saying it, away from the street people.
City sells a lot of property they own downtown to a casino group, that uses that area near Century II, they will have funds to construct other things.
Some think a new convention center larger than Century II has to be created.
JWink will clamor for a bowling alley in it.
Some don’t think programs in Century II are good to have by a casino.
“Won’t Schaus take the money!” WHAT MONEY? YOU WRITING HIM A CHECK?
“Where is the costs that are higher for WSU?” PAYING COSTS OF THE ARENA. THEY WILL BE HIGHER THAN KOCH, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE KOCH OVERHEAD MUST BE PAID ANYWAY.
“So they have a game downtown, without paying Koch’s employees that night. More profit.” YOU HAVE A GROUP WHO WILL VOLUNTEER TO DO ALL THE WORK AT YOUR ARENA FOR NO PAY?
“When WSU plays at Koch is the game on TV anywhere? No.” ACTUALLY THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS YES. IT MIGHT COME AS A SURPRISE TO YOU BUT THEY DO HAVE ELECTRICITY ALL THE WAY OUT TO HILLSIDE THESE DAYS!
“County has to be approached with a plan.” GOOD LUCK WITH THAT! THEY HAVE TOLD ME THEIR MIND IS SET.
“Post season tournaments whenever we can win those bids.” NOT!
“I don’t have any idea what events SMG will do outside of basketball.” I SURE HOPE THEY DO!
“Are concerts, meetings, shows and circus saving other arena’s?” THAT IS WHAT SEDGWICK COUNTY IS BETTING ON!
The other items on your list – there are some of us who have been attempting to get things done. Money is a BIG problem.
Riverfront improvements – walk/bike path south of Kellogg on the east side of the river for example.
Green space. Parks. Again, where to get the money?
River cleanup. Some of us (Joe included) gave of ourselves for the betterment of our community.
Then there is the bowling tournament the City botched. $100 million dollars. The thing about that one is that rather than a whole lot of people for a few days it would have been a smaller number of people for an extended period. Hotels, bars, restaurants, shops etc would have benefitted more from that than they would from larger crowds for only a couple of days a year.
Oh well, maybe Bob Hanson doesn’t consider bowling to be a REAL sport.
“JWink will clamor for a bowling alley in it.” I DOUBT THAT!
WSC – I think there are number of issues with the library. The building needs a lot of updating. Facing such a cost the idea of ‘opening things up’ becomes attractive. So, IF a casino developer wanted the location then a sale and new building might make sense. Putting a new expanded library near Exploration Place makes a lot of sense I think.
Even though Mrage would clamor for 18,000 seats in it.
Not that I am an expert on the subject, but I would think that the library is adequate for now. Unless the property could be sold for an outstanding price to a private developer, no stings attached, then I think the money could be spent better elsewhere.
Right now, the library is easily accessible by bus for most of our community. Moving it out near Expo Place would negate that advantage. In the grand scheme of things, I would say that a new library is lower on the list than a lot of other services.
I find it disconcerting that we cannot afford to have video capabilities in our police cruisers, but we can think of building a new library.
We have many problems in this city, gangs, homeless folks, poor public transportation, school facilities, jobs, vacant downtown buildings. We need to address these issues before we try to dive in the deep end.
An arena, a casino, a spiffy new library – a lot of glitz to benefit a few – we need to be more comprehensive in addressing the needs of our community.
Off the soapbox for now……
WSC – we do not really disagree all that much. The key in my ‘move scenario’ is that developer writing me a BIG check.
Ben,
Are Koch employees on game nights being paid right now? People on salary over there regardless if games happen or not?
When they play downtown, WSU is not paying for the arena staff! WSU is not charged any fee to play downtown.
County hasn’t been presented a better plan, no group has yet wanted to partner in the arena.
When they have evidence a new plan exists to help pay for their arena, they will listen.
Has any other arena turned down corporate partners? Ours will?
The county mind is made up, there won’t be a revote.
Do scream loudly to the City when they sell land for the Casino, your river group gets some funding.
I don’t look to financially benefit anyway from the County increasing seats or City selling land downtown.
I’ll have more exciting places to go.
“WSU is not paying for the arena staff! WSU is not charged any fee to play downtown.” THEN HOW ARE YOU GOING TO PAY THE BILLS? ARE YOU VOLUNTEERING TO WRITE A CHECK?
“no group has yet wanted to partner in the arena.” GEE, I WONDER WHY?
” The county mind is made up, there won’t be a revote.
oops – hit post too soon – damn laptop
AGREED – AND THERE WON’T BE 18,000 SEATS EITHER.
“your river group gets some funding.” WON’T HAPPEN. WE OPERATE ON OUR OWN CONTRIBUTED FUNDS AND TIME. SELFLESS VOLUNTEERS NOT AT THE PUBLIC TROUGH.
” I’ll have more exciting places to go.” WHAT, THOSE FICTICIOUS B-BALL GAMES?
“Has any other arena turned down corporate partners? Ours will?” WHAT CORPORATE SPONSORS? MAYBE IF THEY EXISTED THE MAJORITY OF CITIZENS WOULD NOT BE AGAINST YOUR ARENA.
Well, Ben, in my humble view, the developer would have to write a really big check – with NO strings attached. No guarantees, no subsidies, no hugs and kisses from the City and County.
That, if history is a guide, is not going to happen.
The main library in Overland Park is a marvel – a beautiful facility – worthy of ANY major city. It would be great to have such a facility.
But mortgaging the city is not a price that I would be willing to pay.
Ben,
Your asking how the arena staff will be paid?
The county will pay those employees!
Advertisers, TV money and gate receipts. Money from presold ticket sales, the luxury boxes.
No corp has wanted any part of the 15,000 seat arena is pretty evident.
Its not quick to bid for post season tournaments.
According to you won’t be able to attract WSU, KSU or KU to play games there.
Why would any corp want to be part of that kind of arena.
A corporate will want the arena act and attract events a lot better. With 18,000 seats its capable of holding some better events. More TV attractive facility.
Its going to take the corp, SMG and County staff to bid for events.
“The county will pay those employees!” AND THERE IS THE PROBLEM. WE NEED TO GENERATE ENOUGH REVENUE TO PAY ALL THESE COSTS.
“Its not quick to bid for post season tournaments.” I AM FULLY AWARE OF THAT FACT. 2010 IS THREE YEARS AWAY; YOU SHOULD BE BUSY BIDDING THAT. I HAVE ANOTHER JACKSON FOR YOU SAYING IT AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN.
“According to you won’t be able to attract WSU, KSU or KU to play games there.
Why would any corp want to be part of that kind of arena.” ISN’T THAT WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG?!
“Its going to take the corp, SMG and County staff to bid for events.” THEN LET’S HOPE THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL.
BY WHAT CRITERIAN DO I JUDGE THEM?
WS
Yes, a lot is wrong is Wichita. Pick your battles. Voices will scream loudly when the city starts selling land to a casino.
Everybody has a project wanting some of those funds.
Mixing up what’s wrong with our city with the County arena isn’t right.
We voted to create the arena and spend the tax money on it.
Let’s hope the proper sized arena gets built and has success bidding for events.
The Library in Overland Park, is probably why the library here wants a new building. Or some grand library elsewhere they admire.
Taxes aren’t going to be raised to create a new library. So whatever they construct I hope its better than Overland Park.
Ben,
The only way to judge the arena idea is look at other city arena’s. See how they function, imagine ours will work the same way.
The arena idea needs improvement is why a corporate would want to be involved with it. The improvements have better event goals.
You didn’t answer my question. AFTER it is open, in the year 2010, what should I expect? What standard should I hold it to?
In other words, if it has only one event in 2010 that draws only 100 people I think that would obviously be a failure. If it has 300 events that are all sell-outs it would obviously be a success. Somewhere in between is a level that might be considered a break point. What is that level?
Ben! Easy to answer that.
Do you believe that the Britt Brown Arena is a failure of our community? If not, then the downtown arena will not be a failure.
With a growing population and an increase of entertainment events to satisfy the publics thirst for entertainment. The downtown arena will be even more successful than Britt Brown.
But if you believe Britt Brown shouldn’t have ever been built or is a complete burden to our community, then you will believe the downtown arena will be also.
Look at it as this. You have a bridge where many people travel across. But the bridge is old and need of repair and renovation. Instead you opt to build a better and wider bridge to replace it with. Will a new wider and better bridge be a failure?
well, Joe, if the new bridge doesn’t get used for whatever reason then yes, it would be a failure.
You didn’t answer my question either.
I think Senator Ted Stevens of Alaska might know a thing or two about useless bridges.
What was the cost of that going to be? 300 million? Sounds like a familiar number…
Um Ben! Pretty much all the events that happen at Britt Brown will happen at the downtown arena.
Do you think that since there is a new arena, not one event will go there because of it?
You have traffic going over a bridge, lets say 100,000 cars a day. You build a new bridge to replace the old bridge. Still 100,000 cars a day cross and more in the future.
It’s called long-term planning. The new downtown arena will be our arena for the next 30+ years.
Unless you believe a huge economic downtown will happen and that we loose population rapidly, then the downtown arena will be a failure.
But by believing in that, you are investing in the defeat and downfall of the Wichita area. That is what JWink wants. Are you with him?
I guess if you have one foot in the grave, you wouldn’t care about the long-term future of our community, but I do.
Joe,
That last comment at the end of your most recent post was a little over-the-top. There are Wichitans who care very deeply about the future of this community who disagree with the arena promoters. Are you really trying to say that anyone who opposes the arena doesn’t care about the city? Can’t you accept that maybe there are people who care, but who have a different opinion about what’s best?
“I guess if you have one foot in the grave, you wouldn’t care about the long-term future of our community, but I do.”
Well, I do NOT have one foot in the grave and I DO care about th long-term future of Wichita. So that statement was meaningless. But, I guess if you are barely out of diapers and have no real-world experience you wouldn’t have a basis for any knowledge.
“Pretty much all the events that happen at Britt Brown will happen at the downtown arena.” In that case what’s the point? If Britt Brown is filling the need then why all the expense of the replacement.
Back to your bridge. If I can fix the old one for $60 million or build a replacement for $200 million then perhaps fixing makes more sense. Unless, of course, it can be shown that the new one has a lot of features that will make it superior.
It is claimed that the downtown location is so much more accessable. That is NOT what a traffic analysis shows. For people coming from Goddard, Maize, Andover, Andale, etc etc etc, the I-135 site is easier to access. IF we had transit that might be different. BUT, we do NOT have transit and none is on the horizon.
Tom – I will answer you question – THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT JOE! IS SAYING! HE HAS DONE SO REPEATEDLY!
He also likes to claim that anyone who isn’t still ‘wet behind the ears’ like he is is ‘is one foot in the grave’ I suppose he would add than anyone not born here cannot care about the community.
Joe, your dismissive comments do nothing to add to your cause. I am almost fifty five, but I have grandchildren and children that live in this city. I do not want to have to refer to their home in the future as Wichita – Home of the White Pachyderm.
WSC, Tom, Joe! – if what Joe! calims is true then why am I investing my money in Wichita? Shouldn’t I be moving my resources away as fast as possible if I don’t care about Wichita’s future?
Joe’s dismissive comments are all to typical of him. Remember, he believes that the ONLY reason I question the wisdom of the Arena is HIM!
It is true Ben! Because I made reasonable and logical points about why the downtown arena wouldn’t be a failure. But you insist to disregard them and just say the same thing over and over again and you ask for the counterargument, I give it to you, but it just zips right past your eyes and there you go again, the same thing over and over again.
Argument one on the downtown arena from those who oppose it: White Pachyderm, nobody will go there, it will be empty.
Ok! What makes you think that it will be completely empty, a white pachyderm and that nobody will go there?
Arena Opposers: No Answer!
Then I ask! Is Britt Brown a white pachyderm, is it completely empty, does nobody go there?
Arena Opposers: No Answer!
Did you know that the downtown arena will replace Britt Brown, therefore all events and people who currently go to Britt Brown now will go to the downtown arena in the future!
Arena Opposers: No Answer!
Arena Opposers speak out: White Pachyderm, nobody will go there, it will be empty.
Ok! What makes you think that it will be completely empty, a white pachyderm and that nobody will go there?
Arena Opposers: No Answer
And the cycle continues around and around!
Again for the nth million time. What makes you believe that the new downtown arena will be a complete failure, why do you call it a white elephant, what would substantiate it as a white elephant and if you believe the downtown arena is such a boondoggle, what is your thoughts on Britt Brown?
I doubt I’ll see any answer!
Britt Brown is not going to cost $250 extra large.
Easy answer?
“Ok! What makes you think that it will be completely empty, a white pachyderm and that nobody will go there?”
I have already answered, Joe. If you think that the NCAA is going to beating down doors, you are wrong. If you think that the Thunder are enough to pay for the arena upkeep, you are wrong.
If you think that major music performers are going to be adding Wichita to their tour list, you are wrong.
All of your questions have been answered, Joe, you have just chosen to reject the answers.
Unfortunately, you are wrong.
Joe! I DID answer. YES, many of the same people who go to Britt Brown will go the your arena. i said so! You need to improve your reading comprehension! y question was clear – how does simply replacing BB make it worth the 200 million when BB can be updated for about 60? NO ANSWER from you!
I have NEVER said it will be 100% empty as you falsely claim! What I HAVE said is it will not justify its size. HOW WILL IT BE SUPERIOR TO BB? NO ANSWER!
“I doubt I’ll see any answer!’ That, Joe!, is because you refuse to see them! You are too busy with your stupid “I guess if you have one foot in the grave, you wouldn’t care about the long-term future of our community, but I do.” rhetoric to see the answers.
My thoughts on BB: Probably a questionable decision to build it where it was built. There were probably better locations. I might have tended toward a freeway site a bit closer in. However, I was not here so I do not have all the information.
For example, was the Derby Refinery property available then? That site is intriguing to me. As you are aware, before the Koch renovation took place I raised the idea of studying a multi-use facility there for WSU, Wichita, Sedgwick County. Take advantage of proximity to BOTH the city AND the University. Unfortunately nobody was interested in that. Now, with Koch in place such an approach is out of the question.
WSC – wouldn’t you think that Joe! would WELCOME the opportunity to have open hearings on this project? After all, he can build his wonderful case for it using his superior intellect and turn the poll numbers around overnight. Then, hold the vote and he wins overwhelmingly!
Boy, THAT sure would send us scurrying away wouldn’t it?
With this much money in play, I just have a bad feeling that something just isn’t right with this situation. Despite all the evidence, all of the questions, all the facts and all the concerns, it seems that they are going to go ahead with the arena regardless.
When a decision is made that seems completely illogical like this one, I have to wonder if there isn’t something illogical about he process.
Question Ben! You voted against in the first place, but let’s go to the cost.
The core cost went up right? What would have prevented the Britt Brown renovations from going up at the same rate as well.
When you look at both options, either renovate Britt Brown or a new one, it would have cost the county roughly the same amount.
Sure it would have cost less to renovate Britt Brown, but that is borrowing the money. Repaying it would have put it in the same level of cost as the new downtown arena, but having it downtown has advantages.
One! Keeps us inline with the rest of the mid-west cities for which we compete for business, investment and human capital, because they all promote and have built or are building downtown arenas. Now-a-days, business look at what cities are doing in their downtown sectors when thinking about relocating or establishing regional offices.
Two! Renovates a large section of downtown that was largely blighted and abandon. (for the record I would have preferred the Douglass location). It’s killing two birds with one stone.
Three! Spurs downtown economic growth, which downtowns have been plagued by abandonment all over this nation. Downtown arenas have been proven in every city that has one to spur huge economic growth in the downtown sectors. Most recently even here in Wichita, as investors scramble to snatch up abandon buildings and convert them into condos, hotels and street front shops and restaurants. For which they are all betting on the arena to take shape.
Four! Replacing Britt Brown with a new one off-site allows for uninterrupted events while construction takes shape.
Five! Allows us to modernize the downtown area and convert streets and sidewalks and utilities into 21st century use.
Ben! Why would you care what WSClark thinks. He has already stated that he will refuse to go to a single event at the downtown arena in hopes that it will fail and to stick it to the county commissioners and the Yea people.
That means he won’t be bringing his grandchildren to a circus, sesame street live, ice-escapade, Thunder, any graduation ceremonies any and all events, because he wants to make sure it fails. This is the attitude of anti-arena people.
“When you look at both options, either renovate Britt Brown or a new one, it would have cost the county roughly the same amount.”
FASLE STATEMENT!
As for your apples-ornages comparisons with interest etc you absolutely ignore time value of money and net present value calculations. Put simply, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. You might want your accountant to explain these concepts to you.
Since I run a business and have to track finances these are concepts I use in my daily course of operations. However I still consult with my CPA from time to time.
Let us consider: a businessman needs to buy a widget-maker. I offer to sell him one for $100 that will do everything he needs. Joe! comes in and offers him one that will do everything mine will do. Offering price $200. Which one should he buy?
And, if he buy’s Joe!’s widget-maker the price turns into $300. “Hey, I never ‘PROMISED’ my advertising was honest” says Joe! when called on the price increase.
Joe! I also do not recall WSC stating “that he will refuse to go to a single event at the downtown arena in hopes that it will fail and to stick it to the county commissioners and the Yea people.” I’d sure like to see that too!
Or is lying just another of your superior debating skills!
Ben,
I don’t know why you feel the arena won’t be able to pay their employees and will have 100 people show up to events.
Can’t imagine a 2010 event that you could attend.
That’s some irregular thinking. Something your ashamed about in Wichita?
It’s people your talking about, that are going to fail the arena, not the facility itself.
Your saying everybody is a failure and likely to be.
Who here can answer year long events in the arena? That is SMG’s job.
No can quess right now how successful the arena will be, if outstanding or dismal.
Once constucted, with 18,000 seats, promoters will try to put events togehter.
This is a can’t see it, won’t believe it city.
It has to start construction, then minds will open. The curiosity what events are possible, overcomes the denial.
Some think a revote should happen, its never going to. Many have to move on from those thoughts.
They can scheme to replace Commissioners but when that election time happens, many more people that are doubters now will be supporters of the arena.
When SMG starts talking, they will provide a vision of future events. People will appreciate that.
Downtown will look different with the arena. Some can’t imagine the difference today.
Build it, they will believe. Trying to have a pre-construction conversation leads to round and round arguments.
If the facility looks interesting, people will visit to see what its like. They will want to be there and hope its worthwhile, not too expensive experience.
That area of town with future improvements supporting the arena will be worth walking around on a nice day. If people can find a place to park.
“Your saying everybody is a failure and likely to be.” BULL! Never said that!
“That’s some irregular thinking. Something your ashamed about in Wichita?” MORE BULL! I simply asked you what events to look for.
“18,000 seats” EARTH TO MRAGE! IT IS 15,000 SEATS!
“If the facility looks interesting, people will visit to see what its like.” I PLAN TO VISIT IT TOO. THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT WILL BE SUCCESSFUL. I have visited Gander Mountain – once.
“Build it, they will believe.” OR NOT.
“Some think a revote should happen, its never going to.” ON THAT YOU ARE CORRECT. UNRUH HAS MADE IT CLEAR HE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THE CITIZEN’S WISHES.
“If people can find a place to park.” AND IF THEY CAN’T?
“Ben! Why would you care what WSClark thinks”
Joe! WSC and I differed on the Library issue. However, I believe that if a package is put together I could convince him. I would try using facts to convince him to take a second look at the issue. Perhaps in light of new information he might change his mind.
See! That is the difference between you and me. You! would just call him a Wichita-hater and old fogey for not wanting to sell the Library for a Casino. I would try to examine all the evidence and also get him to do the same. I am confident enough in my position to use that method instead of your name-calling methods.
How is the search for him saying that which you claimed going?
As a reasonable person (sort of, depends on the subject) I am open to changing my mind if the facts and rationale warrant a change.
My concern with the library is moving it out of easy access for those that have to use public transportation.
A library should be a cornerstone of education in a community. Everyone should have be able to use the facility without undo inconvenience. It has to be that way. Those that are more well off can afford their own books, research materials and Internet access. Those than are not should not be penalized in favor of those better off.
My concern with the way Wichita is going is that more and more, it favors those at the higher income levels, at the expense of those that are not.
All residents of Wichita contributed to the arena fund and all residents pay the taxes that support the library.
When you begin to limit access, you begin to exclude those that are less fortunate.
As a member of the MORE fortunate class, I am realistic enough to know that we are only as good as the least of us.
I have known that for a long time, but as I get older, the lesson is driven home with even greater emphasis.
Valid points WSC – and if I were advising the Canada group I would hammer that at them. The only prblem I see with the Watkins site if bus access as you note. Car access is, in my opinion just as good there as where it is now. Of course, as you may know, I have LONG been an advocate of improving transit; that would alleviate your concern there.
Like you, I am in that ‘more fortunate class’ and so am not impacted directly. Therefore i must have others (such as you) remind me from time to time.
The key, in my opinion, would be for the city to realize enough revenue from the sale of that site to fund a first-class library facility.
ome time ago Joe! and I had an actually constructive discussion about transit possibilities. I look at the core areas – first Seneca-Washington-Kellogg-Central for frequent shuttle service. Then move outward to an ‘outer core’ – West-Hillside-21st-Pawnee for lomger routes centering on the Transit Center. Out where I live? Much less important quite frankly.
Something else I think the Library could offer: ‘premium’ service for a fee – make a profit on that. For example, I have done some work there that the Library’s staff helped me with. I get paid for my work. Why not let me ’sub-contract’ some of that to them – they can do it much more efficiently then I can. Charge me for it. Heck – I just bill that to the client anyway! And, it would be more cost-effective to my client due to the greater efficiency of the information search experts there.
That might then help subsidize the Library’s other functions – schools, kids, etc.
On hosting Big-12 events, we need to mine data. How many Big-12 alumni live in the KC Metro area? Oklahoma City Metro area? Dallas? How many Big-12 athletic-program contributors live in these cities, and how much do they donate in aggregate? Then get the figures for Wichita’s Big-12 alumni and alumni dollars donated to Big-12 sports.
Crunch the numbers. Then we can talk about whether Big-12 tourneys (mens and women’s basketball, women’s volleyball, gymnastics) are data-supported feasible, or fanciful hype.
MPS – there is another MINOR detail. Big-12 requires 18,000 seats. This one is 15,000 seats. Presumably the idea of increasing size could be raised in the Hearings but …
MPS,
KSU and KU are just up the road.
Having those two Big 12 colleges,demands a free standing facility in the State of Kansas can provide their arena championships a place to play.
If people would consider our downtown arena represents the whole state they can imagine why we need it.
Wichita must participate in the regional event industry.
Neighboring cities have constructed their arena’s to bid for the Big 12 tournament and other events.
They are bidding for our state universities to go there.
Wichita shouldn’t bid for our state universities to come here?
Wichita has to create the proper sized facility in seating, 18,000 seats. The Big tournament requires using two arenas.
Koch Arena with 10,000 seats is large enough for the Big 12 women to play there.
Is the Big 12 unfamiliar with Wichita? No.
Do many fans in Sedgwick County watch Big 12 events on TB or in person, I’m sure many exist.
Those teams cross through here on bus rides. There are Oklahoma fan groups here. Oklahoma State and Nebraska. Coaches come here to visit those people.
We’re going to build an 18,000 seat arena. A larger facility is more marketable for whatever event will happen there.
We have to demand the proper sized arena for our long term use. Its good for County and City to bid for events, keep trying as we improve our community.
We’re not likely to win the Big 12 tournament first try. Other arena’s are already constructed are in line ahead of us.
The County can’t act like their tax isn’t affording the arena we need. So they march on while the tax is being collected.
Time still exists to redraw the arena with more seats. HOK has been asked to determine cost adding seats, creating a little larger arena. What they expect in pay to do it.
Many people around here watch Big 12 events on TV!
“We’re going to build an 18,000 seat arena”
When? The plans for the Wichita downtown arena calls for a facility with 15,000 seats.
When is that going to change?
Answer – there are no plans to change the configuration and no plans for a revote.
WS,
You ask a question, let someone else answer.
I don’t know when. A few weeks, couple of months, before the year is over?
Nothing stops, the arena site will be cleared.
The County and some business partner will let everyone know, a new plan exists, a larger arena will be created. The sales tax will still end on time.
I’m sure SMG will be around then to announce what events they will try to start bidding and planning for.
“We’re going to build an 18,000 seat arena.” AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN. I HAVE ANOTHER JACKSON I’LL PUT ON THE TABLE.
Mrage! That better come quick, because demolition begins in a month, contract bids also, construction begins this October.
To redesign the arena now will set it back another 6 months. And time is money on a project like this. You have to accept the 15,000 seat arena.
Save it for the casino nights!
Doubters don’t require the arena.
Business says if we’re going to have it, let create a quality facility. Its much more valuable risk then we could personally bet.
You deny business stepping up in this community or you believe the County will deny a partnership to improve seats in the arena.
(Wichita would be the rare place where Corps didn’t step up and assist their arena)
I do tell, parking is most important. A business partner in the arena has to make sure the parking is available and parking garage use isn’t prohibitive.
“Save it for the casino nights!”
CASINO NIGHTS?
Joe,
The best arena we can get, will be built at the right time.
The tax will end on time.
Site will be cleared. We’ll see what happens after that.
Next couple of weeks, business has to make a difference in our arena.
I personally will never accept a 15,000 seat arena.
Ben,
Yeah, slots could be open by Christmas at the dog track.
Can slots be classified as a casino?
The yes vote on the casino is a done deal, overwhelmingly so.
Don’t be so sure about the casino vote. It’s scheduled for the first Tuesday in August, and could quite well be the only issue on the ballot. This is the kind of election that’s tailor-made for the radical-conservative churches. It’ll be low turnout, and they’ll have their base as captive audiences on the Sunday before the election. There’s no prohibition against churches taking a stand on this issue, either – it’s candidate elections they’re prohibited from engaging in.
Mrage – I’m glad you will be playing the slots at the dog track. Enjoy yourself. But what does that have to do with your 18,000 seat hallucination? Figure you will hit the jackpot so you can buy them?
Tom – VERY good point. Ironically, Joe! has made it easier for the anti-casino forces to block the casino.
“I personally will never accept a 15,000 seat arena.” AND WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?! YOU TOLD ME I HAVE TO ACCEPT IT!
Tom,
Won’t we hear Casino groups advertising, what their offering to build.
This isn’t like the arena, no tax increases. Its a business group wanting to construct in Wichita.
They should advertise and explain themselves. That’s what we’re voting for.
Church’s overstepped on the gay marriage issue. It’s legal for cities to create gay civil unions.
Church’s have other issues internally instead of bothering the community and trying to deny our personal choices.
If the Casino is built, no one is forced to go in. No one is forced to support it. They don’t have to, without taxes being raised.
The City is pretty evident they want the Casino downtown. Only way the city can benefit if the a casino is within city limits.
County wants it downtown to support the arena.
Mrage – i think all Tom was doing was pointing out political reality. He is right; in an election like this one the fundies just might win. As he noted – low turnout.
I favor allowing casinos; however unlike you I am not particularly attracted by them. So, I am not passionate about it. That is the way with many voters. So, apathy will be a factor, turnout will be low.
If I had my way I think turnout would be higher and the casino would be strengthened. However, you are getting your way and that will suppress turnout. Congratulations on that!
My point is (and I think Tom’s) that you better not count your votes before they are cast. With a single issue on which many supporters are lukewarm and opponents are hot turnout becomes important.
Perhaps you should want to increase turnout.
My father voted no on the arena but says yes to the Casino.
That’s pretty evident to me. Mother is exact opposite. She voted for the arena hates casino’s.
I haven’t been out to the dog track since the first year it opened. That year I went 5 times.
Gilley’s Bar, whatever Ruffin will make at the dog track may not impress me.
I like card games in Casino’s.
I look forward to the City selling property they own, like the Hyatt.
Give the Library money to build what they want. Let Century II be remodeled inside.
Plan for a new convention center somewhere else, if need be.
So many city positives saying yes.
It can be a morality test on gambling.
Ben,
I’m doing something about the 15,000 seat arena right now.
For the longest time I believed the arena had 17,000 for basketball.
I’m late complaining, but I found people who are agreeing with me, the arena seating is too small.
Take Bob Lutz, for the first time since he commented wanting the new arena, he mentions seats are too few.
He said we’ll regret not building a larger facility.
Some people are just coming around to the small arena that’s going to be constructed.
I voted for the arena to be downtown more than anything else.
The arena marketing potential is weaker with 15,000 seats. That’s the most important. Marketing is better with 18,000 seats.
Mrage! If somebody steps up and spills $20 million, maybe we can add them seats, but that’s a far fetch think coming from one corporate donor or even many of them.
About me making it easier for the anti-casino people to vote it down in August? How is that? The vast majority of anti-arena people are also anti-casino.
But that being said, we can gauge pretty quickly if the turbo Christians will come out in droves to vote against the casino. And that is if they are successful petitioning the city to put the Sunday Liquor sales on the ballot. They got two more weeks. I’m sure the anti-arena group is helping them do that, most notably JWink.
“For the longest time I believed the arena had 17,000 for basketball.” I KNOW! YOU KEPT CALLING ME A LIAR FOR TELLING YOU THE TRUTH!
Good luck getting your 18,000 seats. There is one AND ONLY ONE way to do it. SHOW ME THE MONEY!
Get those mythical corporations you keep talking on board.
Otherwise … AIN’T GONNA HAPPEN!
I’ve put some Jacksons on things here – I am that confident in those predictions. However, I am NOT ready to put money on the casino passing. I am NOT referring to how I will vote, just how it might turn out with a 10% turnout in August.
Remember, your side has acted to suppress voter turnout. August is ALWAYS a low turnout. That is part of the reason our legislature is so polarized – the Primaries tend to attract the diehard activists. The anti-casino groups will have the activists; the pro-casino side tends to be more apathetic. After all, I don’t go to casinos so why do I care. It is only indirect.
WSC – ;^)
Didn’t you know Joe! never has to back things like that up? He learned that in the same Communications class where he learned solid state chemistry and catalysis.
“About me making it easier for the anti-casino people to vote it down in August? How is that?”
Joe! By keeping the hottest issue facing the people of Sedgwick County OFF the ballot. That reduces interest. As for “I’m sure the anti-arena group is helping them do that (Sunday sales)” I have no idea. I haven’t heard anything but I am not involved in any such group.
Actually! I think Sunday sales SHOULD be on the ballot and I think that would HELP the casino. The reason: INCREASE VOTER TURNOUT! Having the Arena on the ballot would help the Casino for the same reason.
My take on the numbers: OVERALL people in Sedgwick County favor the Casino about 60-40. HOWEVER! Most of us just ‘generally’ favor it but have no real interest. The ONLY reason I visited the Casino in Montreal was research – for Wichita! So, what happens in this kind of election?
Suppose voter turnout is 20% (it will probably be lower). Since the anti-casino people are more passionate they will be the ones turning out. So, they just might win!
“The vast majority of anti-arena people are also anti-casino.” BULLSHIT! If that is true then the casino will DEFINITELY go down. After all, according to YOU (coupled with the Eagle and KWCH) the majority of Sedgwick county residents OPPOSE the casino. I think you are wrong on that.
Mrage,
As Ben pointed out, my comments are about the political reality of the upcoming casino vote. The _best_ the casino backers can hope for is that this is the only ballot issue. If there’s going to be another issue, it’ll be Sunday alcohol sales. This will be _guaranteed_ to bring out the voters motivated by conservative religious principles.
Also like Ben said, most people who don’t mind having a casino in Wichita may not be very motivated to actually get out and vote for it. Voter apathy/lack of motivation is a very real issue that affects every election, especially elections that don’t have a President, Governor, or other high-profile race on the ballot.
Statewide turnout for the November election was 51%. Sedgwick County turnout for April was barely 24%. Last August’s primary turnout was 25% for the Republican Party and less than 18% for the Democratic Party. Keep in mind that the Republicans had a contested primary for Governor, Secretary of State, and State Treasurer, and still had low turnout.
When you see low turnout numbers like that, what you’re looking at is the voting base coming out. Not the barely-interested voter. Is the casino issue enough to bring out those voters who usually sit out the “minor” elections?
I’m not going to bet on it.
Yeah, I know Ben, but I don’t like folks putting words into my mouth. I have never said that I would not attend an event at the arena and I don’t appreciate people that say I did.
I thought we had a respectful debate, but I guess that when folks can’t use facts to back their contention they have to resort to out and out lies.
I used to respect Joe, but his lies and failure to retract them has changed my opinion.
Ben,
My bet on August 7 is 15% to 18%, based on a fast analysis of precinct turnout patterns in the past five elections (including locals and primaries). I could be a little high on this though – it may be as low as 12%, but I don’t have anything but my gut feeling on that.
“The _best_ the casino backers can hope for is that this is the only ballot issue”
I disagree Tom. The best thing for casino backers would be to have BOTH Sunday sales AND (even more important) the Arena. The reason: Contrary to Joe!’s false claim a majority of arena opponents actually favor the casino. Make sure we come to the polls and we will vote. That will help the casino.
Sunday sales is less clearcut but I think there a lot of ‘ordinary’ people who want that opportunity to pick up an extra six-pack tomorrow since their buddies just told him they are coming over tomorrow to watch the Shockers.
I’m one of those who will tend to be apathetic. Neither Sunday sales nor the casino effect me. However I do favor them both. Since I am one of those who votes come hell or high water I will likely vote. However a lot of people who ‘don’t have a dog in the fight’ won’t.
Put the arena on the ballot and turnout will go way up. that is why I said what I did above anour suppressing turnout.
WS,
What is it with the uber-cons that compels them to overstate and misstate other’s comments? In the past few months of my being a regular here, I’ve noticed it’s ongoing and pervasive. At least when they’re called on it, they shut the hell up for a few hours.
Really, I don’t know, Tom. I have questions about the arena and the new library and I thought I asked them in an intelligent and respectful manner. I have never said that I would not attend an event at the new arena.
To be attacked unfairly by Joe did, was bad enough, but then he didn’t even have the nerve to address me directly, he made a statement to Ben about me.
Whatever.
I guess that is the modus operandi of the right – when in doubt, make stuff up.
I have to go back and check WSClark. Ben maybe can refresh my memory. But I thought it was you that said you would never go to the downtown arena period.
I do however remember Ben telling that person that he personally wouldn’t go that far.
I know somebody said it. I’ll go back and check. It wasn’t too long ago. And if it wasn’t you WSClark, then I will apologized.
WSC, Tom – I agree with you both. He has done the same to me – that is what makes him such a superior debater. ;^) Actually that is what you might expect from someone who is still a bit ‘wet behind the ears’ and hasn’t traveled much outside of his little circle.
I think you and I had an interesting ’round and round’ on the library – who knows we might even have some common ground there. If nothing else, if I were advising the Canada group I think I would be in a better position to help them defuse opposition – BY MEETING YOU HALFWAY RATHER THAN TRYING TO BULLDOZE YOU!
Tom – a comment on my disagreement with you on the election being single vs multi-issue?
Ok! It was Wiseman that said it and not you WSClark.
I apologized!
Well then you better start apologizing for your unwarranted attack, Joe, because I never said a god damned thing about refusing to attend.
Perhaps you need to do a little research BEFORE you start making attacks.
Ben has already said that he doesn’t recall me making such a statement, so checking with Ben isn’t going to save your ass.
Check all you want – if lies are the best you can bring to the debate, then there is no point in debating.
Ben,
You may be correct about the Sunday sales issue; if you are, I’ll eat (drink?) my words. But I’m really not seeing it. The voters who will be most highly motivated on August 7 will be the social conservatives.
“Ben maybe can refresh my memory. ”
Can’t help you Joe! I don’t recall him saying that. He (and I too for that matter) might have commented that it seems unlikely that he would attend many events there. I don’t know in my case since I have no clue what to expect. As you know, I am very dubious that very many people will be attending events there. the location is much less accessable from most of the County when you consider traffic and parking. But, if something comes up and the price is right I will likely go. I spend money attending events at C-II and the Orpheum. The key is the events. So, Joe!, I hope you guys do a good job on that!
No lies WSClark! Just an honest mistake.
You and Wiseman sort of have the same demeanor when it comes to your blog entries.
I’m a man! I’ll owe to that mistake.
Ben! I wasn’t asking you to recall about WSClark’s words, but the event. If it was a last week or a couple of weeks ago.
Either way! It’s done! I apologize for mixing WSClark with Wiseman.
“The voters who will be most highly motivated on August 7 will be the social conservatives.”
VERY TRUE! That is why having the arena on the ballot would help the casino. There are a lot of fiscal conservatives who are social liberals. Joe!’s claim “The vast majority of anti-arena people are also anti-casino” is just plain BULLSHIT. BACK THAT ONE UP JOE!
With two-thirds of the electorate anti-arena does that mean that 2/3 are also anti-casino? I think not!
I think voters are motivated to make a difference on projects, like the arena or a casino. School bond.
Voting for politicians especially primaries, people are upset and disappointed in their political parties or candidates.
Voters prefer to approve or deny projects.
What’s the record recently for approved projects, no matter what percentage voted?
JOE,
I’m throwing $75 Million numbers is reasonable for a corporation to put in the arena. That’s a national standard amount actually.
The corporate takes much control over how the arena promotes itself.
How fast a corp pays the county, that’s negotiation. The most needed cost immediately is paying for the redrawn arena.
That could be $20 Million for the design redo and actual construction value to make the arena larger. $20 to $30 Million.
There are corps here that could do it. A couple of individuals. A family, combining their riches.
The arena has to be a marketable size bidding for the same events going to other arena’s around us. Events on TV matter.
This could be a more exciting construction, than the seemingly bad idea civic improvement.
County isn’t expert on building something like that. How to market what their creating, so there isn’t as much protest.
Ron Holt isn’t the greatest kind of project cheerleader at all.
There is City hands off on the arena, like its “their” problem to fix. The City doesn’t know why “they” are making those decisions.
Why “they” put seating size of the arena with the tax amount. The tax raised more money.
The seating size should have been more flexible for growth as the arena was designed.
“They” can’t be allowed to limit our arena, hinder growth in our community.
Ben,
How do you propose getting an arena revote onto the August ballot?
“There are corps here that could do it. A couple of individuals. A family, combining their riches.” THEN YOU BETTER GET BUSY RECRUITING THEM!
“”They” can’t be allowed to limit our arena, hinder growth in our community.” THEN YOU BETTER DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! IT AIN’T MY PROBLEM! “THEY” ALREADY TOLD ME TO GET LOST!
Social conservatives are always highly motivated.
It’s not my problem. It’s up to you to put the arena for re-vote.
I had no hand nor influence in anybodies decision on whether or not to put the arena up for re-vote. That is your pipe dream Ben! Make it happen!
Tell the county, because it would be good for voter turnout so a Casino can be passed!
Tom – unfortunately it’s not going to happen. The County would have to be willing to allow it and they won’t do it because they know it would go down 2-to-1. they also balk at hearings where we could lay all the facts on the table.
Ironically Mrage should want these as well. This would be the only opportunity for him to push his 18,000 seats. But, it ain’t gonna happen.
Tell the County. Already done. they told me they don’t care.
OK! Then Shut-up already about having a re-vote!
Here is something! A complete change of subject, but still within the community thread.
Did anybody hear about the propose Interchange of 47th South and I-135? It’s about time! That area is in much need of change.
“make it ahppen” – how, in the face of the Commission’s opposition. As I have said, your 15,000 seat arena will be built. I then expect you to make it successful and not need further tax support. As for voter turnout and the casino – who knows? In many ways that is not my problem either.
What is needed is some coalition-building to make sure the casino passes. However that can be difficult. After all, when you equate anti-arena with anti-casino you tend to lump me in the other side where I am NOT. But, you also make it more difficult to build a coalition on your side with me involved.
And, Joe!, when you tell me to shut-up you make it difficult for me to want to support you on anything else. I will NOT shut up on the fact that we SHOULD have a vote on what the project has become. To do so would indicae that I do not care about the long-term health of my community.
Ben,
I have no barrier discussing anything with the County. Talk to the people in person, their office if need be. Send them registered letters. Call.
A public hearing or vote to increase seats, don’t need it.
The County wants to hear who is paying for those increased seats, because the tax won’t do it.
So we can’t vote to increase seats at all.
It has to be negotiations.
I saw that in the paper. Don’t really know the location but I tend to agree with you.
I have done those things Mrage. It has accomplished about as much as your 18000 seats campaign has accomplished.
g’night all … i have a feeling the casino vote will be a close one …
Ben,
I don’t know what you were talking to the County about, dealing with the arena. Parking issue, whatever.
The right people talk the County they listen intently. I’m trying to push those people.
Some can do real well, having ownership in the arena and its marketed better.
County can only believe their tax is enough, until someone offers a better plan. That better plan hasn’t been put in front of them yet.
I don’t sweat the clock ticking.
I looked up the arena vote. It was on the November 04 ballot, and won with 52% of the vote. Turnout was almost 80% (quite high) and the undervote (the difference between turnout and actual votes cast on the arena issue) was only 5%.
For the record, I voted against the arena. But the arena won, fair and square. Of course, now we have county and city officials who are changing the terms of what was originally sold to us. That’s not a good reason to kill the arena, but it’s sure a good reason to vote out some city council and county commissioners next year.
No! The casino doesn’t need any coalition building. It needs to stand on it’s own.
You maybe for the Casino and I’m sure there are plenty of Casino proponents that are against the arena. But many that are against the arena are also against the Casino. JWink is one of them.
Social Conservatives and Religious Republican Organizations are all going against the Casino. Most notably, Mark Karrs, a huge Republican strongman who has been the Sedgwick County Republican Chair or held other high seats in the Republican Party for a long time. He is the spokeperson against the Casino. They were also against the Arena. Same group, different mission.
You will be surprised on how many social conservatives, especially hard line Republicans that were against the Arena.
You will be surprised on how many social conservatives, especially hard line Republicans that were against the Arena.Posted by: Joe Williams | June 09, 2007 at 11:45 PM
Joe,
Bush won 04 with 62% in Sedgwick County, Brownback with 69%, and Tiahrt with 63%. The arena, in the same election, only picked up 52%. If more of your “conservatives” had voted “no,” the arena would have failed.
Mrage! If you can pull it off, then you da’ man for sure!
I would like to see a larger arena myself, because I believe we will eventually make it larger in the future. Omaha did this just two years after they completed their 15,000 seat arena. They said “oops”, we need more seats.
While Wichita is rightly at the current population growth, a 15,000 seat arena town, it doesn’t mean that we can’t add seats later.
For right now, after all these projects like the Arena, WaterWalk, Casino, Peerless Tower, River Corridor, LD Stadium the new Library and maybe even a convention center, it’s time for us to do something about entrepreneurship and bringing businesses here. We need to grow our job base.
Tom,
You voted against the arena, there is no mystery why you want other commissioners voted out of office.
You wanted to keep the Coliseum as our only arena type facility, that is foolish.
We were that close, old aging Coliseum had to restructed for handicapped. Otherwise we would have been stuck with it.
How can you look at Tulsa, Omaha, KC and Oklahoma City constructing new arenas and we’re not supposed to?
We’re the only community in the state of Kansas that can do it.
Better viewed people voted yes!
Doubtful I would like your candidates for office.
Mrage,
Kiss my ass. I’ve kept my comments professional and on-topic. I’ve not called you any names, or questioned your judgement, or denigrated your positions and your politics. Grow up and do the same.
Thanks.
Not all Republicans are social conservatives and many independents that came out to vote, voted Yes for the Arena.
Independents tend to vote incumbents, so they are the ones that made up the difference in the arena vote for the “noes” that the social conservatives voted against on.
Joe,
It was explained to me, arena’s are designed from the seating outward. There is no upgrading seats after construction.
I don’t know how Omaha did it, when in their construction, the improved seats were made.
We’re a better community than a 15,000 seat arena. The County wanted less tax, they got less seats.
Like I said, for the longest time, I only saw the 17,000 seat number and assumed that was for basketball. I was wrong.
With the Big 12 saying arena’s bidding for their tournament need 18,000, that’s when I started demanding we need those seats for our long term use.
Someday we can win the Bid for that Big 12 tournament.
I’m not unfamilar to some people in the city and county, that’s why I can talk to people there.
I was discussing issues with the stadiums I’m wanting to build, before we had the arena vote.
County and City said my stadium ideas were pretty good.
I haven’t asked for pubic tax at all is why! I would like to use some TIF bonds. Use Star Bonds eventually too. I need County participation with those.
The community will vote if a project uses Star Bonds.
Joe,
What numbers do you have to back up your analysis? How do you know the unaffiliateds voted for the arena? Anyhow, their voting patterns for incumbents has nothing to do with their behavior on ballot measures.
For your numbers to add up, you would have to assume that almost all the Democratic votes went for, not against, the arena.
Do you know the requirements for a Final Four game? It’s 40,000 seats!
What happens with the NCAA starts uping the seating capacity requirements for tournaments?
I say the best thing we can do for sports is try to get an NFL expansion team.
Tom,
Your sensitive. Be proud of your vote.
I’m not wasting today worrying about future elections, removing people from office because of the arena.
If you wouldn’t have said it, I wouldn’t have responded.
We are free to disagree politically. I only cast doubt on your candidates, I didn’t shame them or call them names.
I didn’t call you a bad person, other people had better views of the arena and they were right.
So you are assuming that all Democrats voted against the Arena. There is 65,317 registered Democrats in 2004.
54,213 Independents!
Now! You have to know that many Republicans were against the downtown arena. Especially the no-new tax kinds, which are generally the Brenda Lendware (wrong spelling) kind. They also tend to be Religious Conservatives as well.
So by your understanding, all Democrats voted against it and independents. Only Republicans voted for it. Even if you only calculate 80% of the total registration numbers, by your estimate the Arena should have lost by the votes of Democrats and Independents alone!
But that is not the case.
Joe,
We can’t get a Womens NCAA final four here.
18,000 is good enough, pretty standard size arena that can last years. NCAA isn’t forcing communities to continually grow their arena’s.
NFL expansion team in Kansas, no way!
Lets bring back Division 1 college football in a new exciting stadium.
Joe,
Take a look athttp://sedgwickcounty.org/elections/election_results/Gen04/index.html
Compare it side by side withhttp://sedgwickcounty.org/elections/election_results/Gen04/OFF0003.HTM
Most of the precincts that had the largest margins in favor of the arena were the VERY solidly Republican precincts.
Mrage – “I don’t sweat the clock ticking”
And when the bell rings and you have a 15,000 seat arena? Then what are you going to do?
The arena will be built. It will be 15,000 seats. I hope they can make their arena work.
Tom’s analysis is correct. The arena was very much a “Chamber of Commerce” Republican project.
Also, as I think Tom was alluding to, there is, to my knowledge, no mechanism for the people through petition and initiative to force an issue on the ballot at the county level in Kansas. Nor is there at the state level.
Thanks anon. And for the casino to pass it will take the votes of people Joe! seems to think do not exist: pro-casino and anti-arena. I contend that we are the largest block among the four possibilities on these two issues. Remember, according to BOTH the Eagle and the KWCH polls anti-arena are a 2-1 majority.
Nut, as I noted above, we are not passionate pro-casino; in many ways we don’t care one way ot the other. That is why I believe that the pro-casino needs to actively court voters to get us out to vote. As noted above, I and many others have no real interest in a casino so our support is shallow.
That is why I say that having other issues on the ballot would help the casino.
Actually Tom! You need to look at the numbers again!
Precinct by Precinct!
Afton: 128 Dems, 458 Repubs.On ArenaAfton: 277 Yes, 344 No
Next Precinct down the list!
A1: 192 Dems, 800 Repubson ArenaA1: 544 Yes, 487 Noes
Eagle: 112 Dems, 308 Repubson ArenaEagle: 116 Yes, 327 Noes
Now! I scanned down to a precinct that was overwhelming Democrat and compared!
110: 499 Dems, 38 Repubson Arena110: 321 Yes, 189 Noes
111: 522 Dems, 42 Repubson Arena111: 326 Yes, 194 Noes
Now let’s look at a heavy Republican precinct.
Gypsum: 346 Dems, 1025 Repubson ArenaGypsum: 653 Yes, 786 Noes.
Now I haven’t got the time to go through every precinct and compare and do any statistical analysis on it, but from just looking at the first few precincts alone. You will come to the conclusion that in heavy Democrat districts, the Arena passed by a wide margin. In Republican districts, the Arena did not pass or barely squeaked by. But by the numbers, you have to say that overwhelming conservative Republicans were against the Arena, and Democrats were for it.
Proof is in the pudding Tom! Got anything to counter it with?
I used your links buddy!
Joe,
Nice job of cherry-picking precincts. You skipped Derby, Minneha, Mulvane, all of Wichita 200’s, etc.
For the most part, precincts where Tiahrt did poorly saw a smaller margin of victory, or outright loss, for the arena. The numbers in the 100 precincts are an exception to the rule, and probably has more to do with the income level of the 1st Ward residents than party affiliation.
I didn’t cherry pick! Other than finding overwhelming Democrat districts that where in the top ten of numerical order, there could have been other heavy Democrat districts, but I didn’t go through the entire list.
I just looked at the first few precincts in numerical order. I even showed an example of a Republican District that the Yes votes on the Arena won. So I wasn’t cherry picking.
Face it! This is the situation. Hard core evangelical conservative Republicans were against the arena . Hard core radical leftist were against the arena. The great middle and moderates were for it.
See! You’re a Democrat, and you cannot accept that a Democrat voted for the arena, because you’re so far left you’re out of touch with the real Democrat base. You honestly believe this is a Republican lead agenda and the Republicans voted it in. Nope! Moderates did! Moderate Democrats who are the majority Democrats and Moderate Republicans, who are the minority in that party and then you have independents. All of this combined allowed the arena to win.
If every Democrat voted against it, the downtown arena would have lost.
But Proof is in the numbers. I came up with the hard facts. Now it’s your turn.
Wow, Joe, you’ve managed to read a whole novel into this statement:
“If more of your “conservatives” had voted “no,” the arena would have failed.Posted by: Tom | June 09, 2007 at 11:49 PM
Again: The arena won by 4% in a very high turnout Presidential ballot. If more conservatives had voted against it, it would have failed. Everything I’ve posted since then supports that hypothesis. You’re citing voting behavior you don’t have evidence of as though it’s absolute fact. I’m citing the actual numbers from the various precincts around the county.
Remind me to never hire you as a consultant on a race.
Maybe someone could correct me on this, the new arena can have more seats for concerts than the 15,000. You can put seats where the court goes.
There are no restaurants or businesses where you can park and walk too near the coliseum. Get to the coliseum early and you are stuck sitting in your car. At least with the arena you can get a meal before or after the event and you don’t have to drive to get there.
You are correct om both counts Keith. I think the total for a concert might be about 17,000. However there might be a trade-off as some of the ‘regular’ seats would be behind the staging area. I am certain that the Arena will be plenty large enough for any conceivable indoor concert.
Also, you are correct about specific restaraunts/bars. That is why Old Town wanted it so much and why it was recommended that they establish a benefit district to finance the Arena. It will help places like Heroes and Larkspur at the expense of other establishments like Players ot Applabees. The idea of a benefit district is to establish a taxing district to support a benefit that helps that district.
The benefit district idae was rejected by Old Town and Wolverton.