Heads should roll over Wichita losing the United States Bowling Congress Open Championships for 2011. The tournament was expected to have a $100 million economic impact.
It’s still unclear exactly why the USBC pulled out; people in the know aren’t talking much. But as our editorial today states, it appears to be another case of City Hall being too inflexible when opportunity knocks. That’s also the conclusion reflected in Carrie Rengers’ business column today.
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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40 Comments
Maybe our quarter-billion dollar Arena could host it. NOT!
All the talk about dumping Century II coming home to roost.
Hey lets actually wait and see why we lost them, instead of throwing around rumors and false accusations.. I know new concept but what the hell
Business principles has become so disrespectable, dishonest and unregulated, they forget the old rule that you reap what you sow.
George Kolb and his crew have just cost the city $100 million dollars just because he cannot decide what is going to be done with Century II. The bowling group wanted a commitment that it would still be available to them in the year 2011. Kolb would not commit.
There is nothing going to change that major in just four years unless Kolb has something he is not telling us about.
sts – you make a god point BUT …
The Arena will be coming on-line and will require operating subsidies. I have seen SEVERAL recommendations right here that C-II be scrapped and that the Arena REPLACES it in the overall scheme of things. In view of my support for things like symphony and Music Theater I strongly disagree with that, however it HAS been floating around.
We have also seen comments about a possible casino there. The time line WOULD likely impact the tournament.
As you correctly note, Kolb et.al. need to figure out what is going on.
I thought the Arena was going to INCREASE such business.
Didn’t The Eagle run a story on this with the guy saying the reason it failed was because of Kansas law regarding funds for buildings in advance?
Let me go find it
“Rebenstorf said the USBC wanted a guarantee Wichita will fund upkeep of Century II at its current or better condition in 2011, but Kansas law won’t allow municipalities to obligate in advance money they haven’t budgeted.
Money for Century II is appropriated annually, and there’s no guarantee how that will flow from year to year, Kolb said.”
http://www.kansas.com/212/story/71205.html
So, I’m confused now.
The Eagle just ran this the other day and now you are here saying it is unclear while bashing city hall?
Do you even read your own paper Phillip?
However, Nathan, today:
“”Some lawyer on city staff couldn’t see past his policy book,” says Mark Jensen, a Wichitan who served on the American Bowling Congress board from 1992 to 2005. (The ABC was a predecessor of the USBC.)
“The minor sticking points are so insignificant in their scope, but the consequences are so devastating that it’s hard to believe that we’ve lost that event,” Jensen says.
Mayor Carl Brewer says he and City Council members are equally stunned.
“I ended up finding out Friday evening, and at that point in time, we were told that there were some concerns, but they were still working on it,” Brewer says. “I said, ‘Go back and tell them… I’d be happy to fly there myself.’ ”
These have been worked out in the past – what is different now? This questions brings up again the suggestions that have been floated about scrapping C-II. Brewer’s comments notwithstanding:
“The city’s loss of the event has given rise to several theories, such as the city wants to sell Century II or turn that space into a casino, and that’s why it couldn’t make a guarantee about its condition.
Brewer says that’s “absolutely crazy.”
“There’s no way the city would be interested in selling Century II,” he says.”
Then there is THIS question:
“Some wonder if the building’s current condition might have led the USBC to back out — ”
Maybe Phillip not only read his own paper but also did some deeper research. As did Business writer Carrie Rengers.
Ben,
I have no clue about this other than what the Eagle printed yesterday.
I have not read the paper today. I just found it odd that after the Paper yesterday, now he is posting this.
Goes to show you what you get from reading The Eagle…
Very true nathan. I suspect there will be a LOT more about this coming out the next several days.
Has the Bowling event generated $100 Million in Wichita before, I missed the experienced completely.
When are Wichitans going to generatate $100 Million from events we make up? Not continually wait for the events to happen here, someone else brings.
I barely care if the Bowling Championship comes or doesn’t but it should. If the problem is contractual wording, that’s not enough. Someone has to fail putting money into the pot.
No long term belief keeping Century II intact, up to date. Yeah..that’s more a possiblity than ever before.
The City won’t sell Century II, but they can offer interior control of the building to someone else. Some other company remodels the interior and leads in promoting events.
A Casino could do that. Slot machines won’t be in Century II. More likely the Library Building.
Somewhere the Symphony and Music Theater groups will always have a place to play.
I’m sure the planning can be worked out for 2011, or not.
Long as Wichita keeps working on those things we need to improve the community.
At this time I see no evidence changing the downtown arena to larger seating, 18,000, yet the time to make a difference is not over at all!
Throw the quarter million numbers out loud, we’re constructing a too small seating arena in comparison to Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Omaha and Kansas City.
Tulsa has two colleges with their own arenas and still building a 18,000 stand alone.
All those places trying to get a future Big 12 basketball Championship events for men and women.
Wichita is building an arena that’s not competitive in seating.
State of Kansas has two Big 12 colleges, some future day that Big 12 Championship event should happen in our borders and Wichita.
The arena questions, tied with the Coliseum uncertainty doesn’t bode well for long term speculation.
The County doesn’t want to run two arenas. Selling the Coliseum as it is to anyone else won’t work either.
I have no idea if the Big 12 Championship is worth $100 Million, I only care our midwestern border states and their colleges come to Wichita on occasion, because we’re neighbors.
The Bowling Championship is one of those things that has national implications. To me being neighborly is more important for events. Our arenas will share events as they rotate.
“When are Wichitans going to generatate $100 Million from events we make up? Not continually wait for the events to happen here, someone else brings.”
The difference Mrage, is that the ‘outside’ event brings dollars INTO the community. People from across the country coming to Wichita, staying in hotels, eating out, going to other events, etc etc etc.
And, just maybe, they go home and tell other people that Wichita is a nice place to visit and perhaps live.
The Arena will NOT get Big 12 Men; nor will it gat NCAA Men. And, with Arena football and perhaps hockey in Hartman’s facility I don’t know what it WILL get.
“I’m sure the planning can be worked out for 2011, or not.” OBVIOUSLY. Probably NOT though.
Wink’s arena doesn’t mix. 5000 seats.
Arena we need is 18,000 seats. I don’t accept we won’t bid for the Big 12 Championship events in the future.
A Big 12 Championship event will be on national TV or ESPN.
The Bowling Championship? The winner of that might not make front page of the sports section.
ESPN 2 or maybe ABC if nothing else is going on. It doesn’t have the same quality as a basketball championship.
2011 could be huge for Wichita. At this time we’re not getting the Bowling Championship. We’re not building a 18,000 seat arena to get the Big 12 Basketball Championship.
If we try, its highly possible to get both events.
Big 12 is only future bidding for the 2009 year at arena sites. Future years after that aren’t detailed.
Yet Wichita has to start bidding for future events so as possible.
When is our arena supposed to be open? In shouldn’t open until the right sized seating exists for our long term benefits.
Wink’s arena works perfectly for what it is – a venue for football. I also think it would work well for hockey. And, Mrage, that was the only claim I made.
“I don’t accept we won’t bid for the Big 12 Championship events in the future.” HOW? With a 15,000 seat arena?
“2011 could be huge for Wichita.” With what? Watching the bowling tournament on TV?
“Big 12 Basketball Championship.
If we try, its highly possible to get both events.” Where?
” When is our arena supposed to be open? In shouldn’t open until the right sized seating exists for our long term benefits.” I think the end of 2009. And it will be 15,000 seats.
“Yet Wichita has to start bidding for future events so as possible.” Well, you guys need to get right onto that don’t you?
Other than wishful thinking, what is the rationale behind the assertion that Wichita has a shot at hosting Big 12 basketball? Even ignoring the shortcomings of the proposed arena, Wichita does not have the hotels, air travel choices and other hospitality and tourist attractions required of a host city of an event of that magnitude.Additionally, both KU and K State are closer to Kansas City, a large metro area with the full range of amenities that a tournament of that scope would require and an even larger fanbase of KU/KState fans.
If you are going to dream the impossible dream, why not go for the real deal and lobby for an NBA All Star game or the next available Super Bowl.
I am sick of the pie in the sky rhetoric regarding the new arena. It may host minor league hockey and concerts, but it is stupid to suggest that one tiny arena is the magic wand that will bring big events to Wichita, events that already have their choice of host cities much larger and better than Wichita ever will be.
Scott – well stated. I will add another problem regarding minor league profesional basketball etc.
I am told by city people that they want to attract educated workers. These people will be college graduates from ‘whereever’. Therefore, they will have their allegiences as alums to those colleges. For example, I remain a UCLA basketball fan having been there back in the John Wooden era.
With satellite, cable, etc, it is increasingly possible to follow your teams; this also includes the Cubs and Red Sox in baseball for me.
A couple of months ago I watched UCLA play KU in the regionals – I watched it at a local Sports Bar and had a great time cheering on the Bruins.
So – my question: Am I likely to go to the Arena to watch a possible “Wichita Aeros” minor league basketball team? Will other relocated college grads? I doubt it.
If UCLA were playing in a regional here I would probably go. However, that will not likely happen.
Scott,
Omaha and Tulsa are similar to Wichita yet have arena facilities that are bidding for the Big 12 Basketball Championship.
The Big 12 Championship needs a “host”. KSU will never have that honor if Wichita doesn’t build an 18,000 seat arena. KSU would host the event in Wichita.
Wichita is still the most visited city in state of Kansas regardless of Kansas City Missouri influence.
KU will host the event at the Sprint Center, share it with Missouri occasionally I guess.
KU should play men’s basketball games in Wichita on occasion!
We have enough hotels and those coming online if a Casino vote is approved.
The problem of air fare, most people might think of driving from Big 12 Conference schools to Wichita.
Those flights fit what Airtran is trying to do and the government subsidy supporting them.
Your argue about a “tiny” arena. An 18,000 seat arena is a national standard. NBA teams have 18,000 seat arenas.
Some arena’s can do everything, dirt shows included in one place.They become pretty valuable event facilities for cities that build them.
No NBA team is desired in Wichita at all. The Sprint Center in Kansas City is hoping for a team and the NBA isn’t expanding any time soon.
I like basketball, not interested in NBA development leagues.
We should be on the list for the Big 12 to consider, hosting the Championship games.
We need a regionally sized 18,000 seat arena.
Its you who complain why the facility is necessary at all. If we get one, it has to be regionally sized.
Wichita won’t be completely like other cities, but we can still have valuable events facilities.
Good venues to hold events.
State of Kansas has to be in the mix to get that type of event.
Wichita is the only community on the path to building a new arena.
No one else in this state can do it! Olathe thinks so, but doubtful. Their trying to get change of rules with Topeka offered “Star Bond’s” so tax dollars could be used on buildings.
There is no way Olathe should be allowed to do that.
You know the real shame of this is the many great bowlers that come out of Wichita. People like Sean Rash who could have showcased their hometown. Whoever screwed this up should be fired and ran out of town!
The city has done a multi year contract in the past but now they have a problem?
Could it be because Kolb is working with Tom Dockings gambling guys? Is it because their plan includes Century II? Includes the Hyatt? Includes the City Library?
Kolb and his crew should at least be honest with the people of the city. He does work for the taxpayers of Wichita and yet he is not open to the people.
How much money are you getting Kolb?
You know the real shame of this is the many great bowlers that come out of Wichita. People like Sean Rash who could have showcased their hometown. Whoever screwed this up should be fired and ran out of town!
sts – I don’t know that Docking is a bad guy here – he had been involved with trying to get the event here:
“USBC attorney Thor Lundgren says three things caused negotiations to end:
• The city’s unwillingness to choose either itself or the Greater Wichita Convention and Visitors Bureau as the sole entity listed on the contract. The USBC “desires one party to be responsible for all contractual arrangements,” Lundgren says.
• The city’s inability — due to state law — to make monetary assurances that the condition of Century II would be the same or better for the tournament as it is now.
• The city’s refusal to use arbitration as the sole means of settling any disputes.
The issues “should not have been deal-breakers,” says Tom Docking, the bureau’s counsel.
He says more negotiations could have avoided this.”
WHOEVER is responsible should be called upon to fully explain this to the citizens of Wichita.
Mrage – “We need a regionally sized 18,000 seat arena.” You better go tell that to Joe!
Mrage,
I said other than wishful thinking. Your post is full of nothing but wishes and dreams.
Omaha and Tulsa are similar to Wichita yet have arena facilities that are bidding for the Big 12 Basketball Championship.
Let me know when they get it
The Big 12 Championship needs a “host”. KSU will never have that honor if Wichita doesn’t build an 18,000 seat arena. KSU would host the event in Wichita.
Why would KSU choose Wichita? That makes no sense.
Wichita is still the most visited city in state of Kansas regardless of Kansas City Missouri influence.
What is your point? I am sure that more Big 12 fans would be willing to visit KC than Wichita. Being the most visited city in Kansas is a lot like being the skinniest person at fat camp.
KU should play men’s basketball games in Wichita on occasion
Why, what connection does KU have to Wichita? The KU fans have no problem traveling to Lawrence to watch the games now.
We have enough hotels and those coming online if a Casino vote is approved.
Wichita does not have enough quality hotel rooms to host an event of that scale. Saying it does not make it true. What hotels are you referring to anyway? Very little lodging is near the proposed arena.
The problem of air fare, most people might think of driving from Big 12 Conference schools to Wichita.
BS, the availability of air travel and specifically non stop air travel is a major concern. Not every Big 12 fan and alum lives in the immediate area.
Those flights fit what Airtran is trying to do and the government subsidy supporting them.
Airtran only offers a handful of flights a day to a couple of destinations. Airtran is not a viable travel option for 75% of the country.
Your argue about a “tiny” arena. An 18,000 seat arena is a national standard. NBA teams have 18,000 seat arenas.
The arena will only seat 15K
No NBA team is desired in Wichita at all. The Sprint Center in Kansas City is hoping for a team and the NBA isn’t expanding any time soon.
Sarcasm my friend, Wichita has the same chance of hosting an NBA game as they do the Big 12 tourney and if you are dreaming you might as well do it right.
We should be on the list for the Big 12 to consider, hosting the Championship games.
Why, Wichita is not home to a Big 12 school? What does Wichita offer the Big 12 that dozens of other sites don’t. What possible reason would the Big 12 have for playing in Wichita?Its you who complain why the facility is necessary at all. If we get one, it has to be regionally sized.
I never said anything about not needing the facility. I am trying to inject a little reality into your absurd notion that Wichita is the city of choice for a Big 12 event.
Scott,
Big 12 is having meetings in Colorado Springs, next week, to identify the 2009 site and talks about future cities in years ahead.
Both Tulsa and Omaha will be there. At this time, no one representing Sedgwick County will be there, that I know of.
2010 to 2016 could be talked about, some want the Big 12 not to go too far in site consideration.
Give communities time to promote their cities and facilities.
The Big 12 is receptive to cities wanting the tournament. Dallas, San Antonio, Kansas City, St. Louis are a given. Other venues and their states should be given the opportunity.
For the first time, the Big 12 tournament was in Oklahoma City.
I don’t care what you think are dreams and wishes, the State of Kansas must get that event occasionally!
Why would KSU host the tournament in Wichita, because they can’t host a tournament ever in Manhattan!
The Big 12 tournament requires two arena’s. One for the women and the men. KOCH Arena could be used for the Big 12 women’s tournament.
A new floor put down without WSU logo’s is doable for that tournament.
Men require an 18,000 seat facility.
What connection does KU have to Wichita? Are you senseless? Plenty from Wichita go to KU. The KU Medical Center is here in Wichita.
KU would sell out games in Wichita easily. Wichita has never had a facility they wanted to play in or and their game would be on TV.
Wichita has failed for a long time to create a regional arena. The Coliseum was a joke in comparison to Kemper Arena where KU played for years. Occasionally KU should play in Wichita. Not all the time, not every year.
Remember, the Sedgwick County arena represents the STATE OF KANSAS in some events.
A State representative would be in talks with the Big 12 for the Basketball tournament to be played in Wichita.
You can go on and on about air fare.
When people don’t have a lot of money they drive before they fly. Motels along the highway before they consider hotels in a city they fly to.
It’s not that problematic drive from any Big 12 school and community to Wichita.
People could pay more if they take a flight into Wichita.
If you believe the NBA has a chance to play games in Wichita, who is dreaming? Get a team in Kansas City first.
Kansas City and Oklahoma City have their chance at NBA teams. Wichita isn’t on that radar and shouldn’t be.
If a NBA team wants to travel around in the pre-season, they might stop in Wichita for one game.
It’s not FACT to me, we will be saddled with a smaller 15,000 seat facility. NOTHING has been constructed at all!
There is no better town than Wichita in the state of Kansas. We fail to have college football is the difference. Manhattan and Lawrence are not better than Wichita.
Olathe isn’t either.
Each community has their challenges, but Wichita continues to fail and mess up plans. They don’t plan long term. They fail in Topeka to be definitive. Wichita is not represented well in Topeka.
People who wanted to keep the Coliseum fail to understand Wichita’s plight for events.
Some voters keep Wichita weak in state politics. They accept 15,000 seats and think nothing is wrong. Joe Williams is one of them.
We voted for the arena as a community ( barely some say), its up to business interests in Wichita to make up the difference.
We need 18,000 seats for basketball, in the downtown arena.
There is still time to make it so.
Planning future events and bidding for them are not wishes!
Let’s see, the Eagle reported that this negotiation has been on-going – or stalled – for 18 months. Who was Mayor for 17 of those months? What was Mayans doing to oversee this negotiation?
Wink’s arena cannot hold Hockey. Average attendance is larger than 5000.
From what I’m hearing about the Bowling Congress, is that they are being courted by another city that has more bowling alleys.
Remember! We just lost one last month on the west side, North Rock Lanes is looking more like a dump and Flight Lanes on the south side close a year or so ago.
We don’t have the bowling alley capacity to host the event.
I’m sorry Mrage! I know you think Basketball is the end all to great opportunity, but it isn’t.
15,000 is plenty. It’s around the same seating capacity as Omaha and more than Des Moines.
Remember that 15,000 is the permanent seating for basketball arrangement. With the luxury boxes added to the mix, you have an additional 2,000 capacity.
Me trying to make things weak? Dude! There are people, especially far right wing Jerry Falwell type of people actively trying to stop the construction of the downtown arena. Yet I’m blamed for making Wichita represented in State Politics weak?
I’m just trying to make sure to keep facts about the project in the forefront and keep the fiction coming from the anti-arena / anti-everything groups from becoming what everybody believes in.
Joe,
I don’t “blame” you for anything, we have a difference on the arena seating.
Some voters did keep our local Topeka representative’s weak and they got replaced. Maybe times have changed but its early.
What has Wichita achieved in Topeka, we’ll know in days and months ahead. The Casino vote and it matters, is an improvement. We have a say to make Casino in Sedgwick County happen.
The County took a limited plan for the downtown arena, tied number of seats to cost.
I’ve talked with Ron Holt and Bob Hanson. We can go round and round about their “experts” on size of our arena.
Chasing the Big 12 tournament is one event. That’s not to say we’re always going to fill an 18,000 seat arena. But it gives this community a long term facility in the years ahead.
Expanding it after the facility is built isn’t possible.
I don’t ever have to be in the luxury boxes, so lets just count the floor seating. I want 18,000 floor seats for basketball.
If the Thunder can’t fill enough seats they might consider Winks arena.
I don’t care where the Thunder play.
I care more if KU plays basketball downtown on occasion.
I care if KSU plays basketball downtown occasionally. I want their Big 12 tournament.
I want the best arena $200 + Million dollars can buy. $20 Million more to make the 18,000 seats happen gives naming rights to that company or group.
Ron Holt doesn’t want to use more County dollars at all. The County won’t improve the facility without financial help.
When they started, the arena regional arena goals weren’t specific enough. Now that Oklahoma City had the Big 12 tournament, opened eyes. Tulsa and Omaha chasing the event, means we have to as well.
Wichita can qualify to get the tournament and it will benefit us to get a better variety of events. More events on national TV is the goal.
Two best events for the arena are concerts and college basketball games on national TV.
People can argue Wichita TV market is weak. Our facilities shouldn’t reflect that. We’re choosing to build a smaller arena among other cities near us with 18,000 seats.
Business has to accept the risk with County by buying part of the arena.
I like your passion and I do wish it had more seating, but we opted for a more comfortable arena instead.
People complained about the Brit Brown seating is horrible. So we listen to the citizens and they demanded the new arena to be more comfortable and have better traffic flow.
That is why we went for more spacious seating and double concourse. The square footage is larger than the Alltel arena which boost 18,000 seating. So it can squeeze the seats in, but would that be a good idea? To make a more uncomfortable seating situation just to squeeze seats in?
The Ford Center in OKC did that. They wanted to squeeze in as many seats as they can, this was after they have already purchase the seats with cup holders. So to squeeze more seats, they scraped the cup holders and tighten the seating dimensions and leg space as well.
Just to give you some numbers. The BOK arena in Tulsa is going to seat only around 16,000 for basket ball. The new Sprint Arena will seat 18,000, down from 19,000 for Kemper, so they are actually decreasing their seating capacity.
Not to worry Mrage. Everything is going to be ok. We will get some basketball tournies.
Wichita Thunder’s average attendance is 6200 and growing each season. They cannot fit the Wink arena and they will soon outgrow the Brit Brown Arena, which only seats 6900 for Hockey configuration.
And another point! The Downtown arena cost, which includes everything from equipment, furniture, all the property buyouts, utilities and the whole nine yards is only $178 million. The Arena construction cost itself is around $130 million.
So it isn’t $201 million or $300 million like the anti-arena group is saying.
$201 is the total budget, which includes operating and maintenance fund for many years and total renovation of the pavillions as the Kansas Coliseum.
Joe,
Let’s try to get 18,000 floor seats with cupholders and leg room! Enough concourse too.
If Tulsa has 16,000 seats for basketball, they don’t have to attend Big 12 talks at all. They won’t win the tournament unless the Big 12 lowers those seating requirements.
If the County and Wichita Sports Group isn’t bidding for the Big 12 tournament, tells a lot.
Why wouldn’t the arena be better served getting March Madness First and Second Round games if we had a 18,000 seat arena.
Can we offer a financial package to KU occasionally, matters.
Today’s arena planning throws KU out of consideration!
Can we have a better facility than the Ford Center, that’s great! Can we do better than Alltel Arena, awesome!
Can we be distinct, sure. Quality matters. Seating and personal space for all the other amenities.
We can have a comfortable arena like you describe with 18,000 floor seats.
Still there is time to make a difference. Everyday is wasting!
I don’t accept original planning of the arena. I highly doubt County will turn down money! Money to make the seating grow.
Some group names the facility and they made a difference in the construction.
How the County pays for parking related costs won’t change. Have to imagine more cars.
Suppose Wichita could get the Big-12 tournament. How often could this occur, at most? Once a decade. That’s really a convincing way for the arena to avoid being a white elephant.
But in reality, the Big-12 tourney isn’t ever coming here. Missouri Valley men’s and women’s tourneys are potentially doable, although not that often either.
I know that some people who grew up on farms and in small Kansas towns who’ve resettled in Wichita thinks it has big-city amenities to attract crowds from Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Colorado, as well as dispersed Big-12 alumni living in more distant regions who have money to burn on entertainment, but it doesn’t.
The most-favored Big-12 cities are Dallas and Kansas City for a reason. These cities receive thousands of traveling businessmen daily. Kansas City has nearly 60 Zaggat Survey-winning restaurants, Dallas more than 200. They are designed to host paying “guests”. Wichita is not.
Basically, you have different tourney-attending groups. Students make up the lowest-paying group. Then you have middle-income alumni who tend to be people who live within an hour or two of the arena. They go to the games, and then drive home. Then you have the Alumni Association fanatics who will travel anywhere, and drop a couple grand without blinking an eye. This last group is the one that decides where the tourneys are played. They want four/five-diamond hotels with suites, four/five-diamond restaurants, and after-game evening entertainment. They don’t drive, they fly. Some fly private. Those who go commercial want non-stop service.
The Hyatt is acceptable, but not large enough to accommodate the movers and shakers. Add the Marriott, and Wichita is still several hundred rooms short.
Wichita has two fine-dining restaurants, by Wichita standards, but neither of these is first-tier in a larger milieu. They don’t fly in picked-yesterday produce, or brought-to-dock-this-morning fish. Neither of them is Zaggat Survey rated, for example. Furthermore, even if they stayed open after-tournament, they could only accommodate 100 or so diners between them.
Actually, Wichita has NO Zaggat Survey restaurants. Mid-priced restaurants are awarded, but these aren’t central-factory-assembled-ingredient food-dispensing chains, which is basically all Wichita has. The mid-priced winners are family, or individual-owned. restaurants whose chefs aren’t low-paid cooks who follow corporation food-prep instructions, they are masters of the culinary arts.
Wichita doesn’t have a nightclub scene, because farmland resettlers aren’t night people.
I’m not knocking Wichita in this, but the hard reality is, Wichita just doesn’t have the big-city-class high-spending-visitor amenities that the Big-12 alumni association boosters demand.
“From what I’m hearing about the Bowling Congress, is that they are being courted by another city that has more bowling alleys.
Remember! We just lost one last month on the west side, North Rock Lanes is looking more like a dump and Flight Lanes on the south side close a year or so ago.
We don’t have the bowling alley capacity to host the event.”
WRONG AGAIN JOE!
They don’t hold it in bowling alleys; they set up Century II with lanes. That is why they are concerned about C-II so much.
“Wink’s arena cannot hold Hockey. Average attendance is larger than 5000.”
True – their average has been 6239 this past year. That is more than 5000 but a LOT less than 15,000. I would suggest that Hartman might look at that and increase his size a bit.
A sports event is a lot more fun in a facility that is “just barely large enough” than in one that is too large. The crowd noise reverberates and the atmosphere is insane. Also, a smaller venue will cost less to operate; that will have a positive impact on the tenants bottom line through lower rent.
Mark,
Good information, but to have those city amenities, the 4 star hotels, high level restaurants and “clubbing” experiences with valet parking we need to create the facilities.
No pick up trucks wanted?
I want the pick up and tractors if they legal right to drive on the road. Who cares what people drive to the hotel, restaurant or club.
First things, create the events that bring those people to town. Generate buzz among us who live here too.
There has to be a beginning.
Getting a regional sized arena and a casino in Wichita, places us up some levels. Corporations can decide what amenities to provide.
Both are $200 Million dollar facilities that should be destinations.
If we ever want Zaggat Survey ratings we must have 18,000 floor seats in the arena and fill the place. The event on national TV from Wichita.
“Remember that 15,000 is the permanent seating for basketball arrangement. With the luxury boxes added to the mix, you have an additional 2,000 capacity.”
WRONG AGAIN! Maybe a few hundred; not 2000 Joe!
“$201 is the total budget, which includes operating and maintenance fund for many years and total renovation of the pavillions as the Kansas Coliseum.”
Actually Joe!, they have cut those other itmes substantially from what was advertised to allow for the 45% cost increase on the core project.
“Not to worry Mrage. Everything is going to be ok. We will get some basketball tournies.” Oh?! Which ones? No Big 12; they require 18,000. Probably no NCAA; their minimum size is also increasing. So Joe!, what tournies are we looking at?
Joe! I still want to know when Falwell, Huy, etc joined the anti-arena group. I have never seen them involved. Back up that claim Joe!
Changing the subject: I may suggest a thread on “where and how should we do the casino?” I have a lot of ideas there – I suspect that Joe! and I are not very far apart on that.
For one thing, the downtown arena for hockey configuration is 13,500. What is funny is the anti-arena group is touting that as the actual total number of permanent seating and that it is not much more than the 11,000 seat of Brit Brown.
Playing with numbers. What they don’t tell you or don’t know (which I suspect is the latter) that the hockey configuration at Brit Brown is 6900. So please compare oranges with oranges.
I also notice the anti-arena group website has been down for quite a while.
I would forget about holding Big 12 tournaments. We aren’t a Big 12 place. Leave it to those who Colleges are in the Big 12.
Ben! Your question answered in another thread about far right wing republican group and anti-arena connection.
About the Bowling Congress. They used Century 2 for the convention, but used the bowling lanes around town to hold their tournaments.
I’ll repeat it here, just for you buddy. ;)
To: Ben
Ben! I said the Jerry Falwell, Bonnie Huy types of people.
You ask me if I ever saw them at an anti-arena rally. No! Because nobody really showed up to both of those rallies. Less than 20 people for each rally.
Look! It is no secret that the two staunches supporters of the anti-arena agenda are spearheaded by an ultra-right wing Republican Group for which the these individuals are members of. This is a group that advocates anti-choice, anti-gaming, anti-Sunday liquor sales, anti-porn shops and etc.
There are a few people who aren’t in the group that are anti-arena. Dee Stuart, but she has her own agenda and I don’t know the rest.
I don’t think you’re involved other than on principle. There are quite a few leftist that are against it because they believe in a conspiratorial aspect that the Arena is only to benefit rich construction contractors and the GOBN.
Let me ask you this Ben, since you believe the Downtown Arena is a waste of money. Do you also believe the new pedestrian bridges and the Keeper of the Plains 30 million dollar project a waste of money also?
To rebate the sales tax based on a telephone excise tax model is also wrong. Because we in Sedgwick County are not the only ones paying for this Arena. Everybody that has ever passed through here and payed for anything has.
So will you seek out all the people who live outside Sedgwick County and the State of Kansas that has payed the sales tax and say to them they can claim a refund?
Joe,
Keep your “we aren’t a Big 12 place” feelings internally contained.
Wichita isn’t MVC city at all. MVC Baseball tournament defines Wichita?
For 10,000? When was the last regional for WSU!
MVC Basketball tournament someday in Wichita, lets hope WSU is winning the tournaments then.
I’m sure the MVC would want 18,000 seats as well to move their tourney.
Your describing the rigid views downtown that have to be overcome.
Don’t invite KU at all to play in Wichita. Who cares if KSU ever does.
WSU isn’t fighting for future scheduled basketball games in the 15,000 seats right now.
Keep Wichita mediocre with a 15,000 seat facility and say its okay. Your not the only one.
Joe! The only “rightie” group I know involved is Peterjohn. I don’t recall him being staunchly anti-choice etc.
As for the bridges – I favored pedestrian bridges but question the big pylons that seem to dwarf the Keeper. As I mentioned with your tower – modernistic belongs with modenistic and tradition with traditional. I would have preferred something more subdued at that location.
You are correct that my refund approach, JUST LIKE ITS PRECEDENT, is inexact. However, it could cover those who would be due ’substantual’ amounts including a lesser amount for neighboring counties. Also, as you know the telephone refund allows for specific substantiation on Form 8913; something similar could be provided for a person from out-of-area with a claim. Ask your accountant, he can explain it more fully.
Here is why it should be re-voted:
Core costs (construction, alnd acquisition, etc):
WAS – $123 millionNOW – $179 millionINCREASE 45%
Pavilians:
WAS – $9 millionNOW – $8 millionDECREASE 14%
Parking, infrastructure, operating reserve:
WAS – $53 millionNOW – $14 millionDECREASE 72%
These changes are far beyond normal ‘fine-tuning’ of the project. The evisceration of reserve insures that the Arena will need taxpayer subsidies. How do you plan to fund that subsidy? (I HAVE a solution I would support, Ed Wolverton has rejected it out-of-hand).
The removal of so much of the infrastructure costs has effectively transferred that to the City taxpayers as Wichita is now doing these needed improvements to support the Arena project. We had been told that this was all accounted for in the $185 million TOTAL project.
How is the naming coming along?
Ben,
To elebrate on your statement about the city encuring the burden of supporting the arena… The city will spend approx 7 mill to widen Waterman street from Washington to the Waterwalk to help support the traffic.
WBJ Article:City sets date for start of Waterman project:http://www.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2007/05/14/daily8.html?surround=lfn
On top of that, the city still has to spend money to upgrade other infrastructure (other streets such as St. Francis, Broadway, Market, Douglass, Washington, etc..) and already has spent money upgrading infrastructure within the WaterWalk area (and budget) by enlarging drainage, water and sewage to accomidate both.
We are seeing A LOT of hidden costs being picked up by dozens of other projects and budgets. Unless we stop this, it will keep happening.
I am betting that we will see a $500 Million arena by the time we are all said and done. Anyone else care to take the bet?
Ben! Again! Brit Brown has been subsidized for years. Century II, Libraries, parks and etc. What’s the difference?
We are trading Brit Brown for a new one downtown. Not a huge difference in operation cost at all. It’s a none issue.
Yes! Cost went up for the arena. The Citizen oversite committee and the public were asked to input, including choosing design and inter elements. The majority said that the arena should be double concourse, even though we were warned that it would add $30 million more to the price tag. But the public and citizen oversight committee decided it was worth it.
They adjusted to compensate.
Still! No lies. Initial plans and estimates and changes to that isn’t new to any project. Still under the $185 million. Still fair game.
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