Producing more students with math and science skills is a matter of national security, Sen. Pat Roberts, R-Kan., recently told an advisory committee of the University of Kansas School of Engineering, the Lawrence Journal-World reported. Roberts hopes that legislation passed by the U.S. Senate can help. The America Competes Act would provide $16 billion over four years to recruit and train tens of thousands of math and science researchers and to provide more teachers in those fields.
Thomas Friedman, the New York Times columnist and author of the best-selling book “The World Is Flat,” thinks Congress also should seek to retain foreign students studying at U.S. universities. He wrote in a column last week: “It is pure idiocy that Congress will not open our borders — as wide as possible — to attract and keep the world’s first-round intellectual draft choices. . . . I think any foreign student who gets a Ph.D. in our country — in any subject — should be offered citizenship. I want them. The idea that we actually make it difficult for them to stay is crazy.”
Posted by Phillip Brownlee
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48 Comments
Maybe one of the reasons we don’t have a lot of science grads is because of the Republican “War On Science” that has been going on. The War on Science mandates the teaching of the Biblical Christian view of science instead of the facts and theories of mankind. Many scince teachers just say to hell with it and teach something else less controversial.
Kev,I know at least one High School science teacher who walks into class with a Darwin sticker on his bag and proceeds to debunk all the ID and creationist arguments, and gives his students the ammunition they need to fight the crackpot IDers!
And then there are these nutcase fundamentalists, with their “creation science” museum in Kentucky. Dinosaurs hanging out with cavemen. Oy.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14122311/
Another front opens in the well-funded, fundamentalist war on objective reality.
Check out the “Creation Museum” walk-through for a scary glimpse into the bizarro world of fundo science:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/
I think their website is even better–or scarier, depending. Here’s a quote: “God’s Word is true, or evolution is true. No millions of years. There’s no room for compromise.”
CF2K has a different gloss: “Whackjob fundos are either pathetically deluded or intellectually dishonest and cynical. No ‘plausible deniability.’ There’s no room for compromise.”
And as a public service announcement, here’s a website from Adrian Wyard (who happens to be an old church pal of CF2K’s), which seeks to sort through various issues in the nexus between religion, science, and technology–evolution and creation among them.
http://counterbalance.org/
Once again the failure of our public schools to adequately teach the math and science skills necessary to succeed in the science and research world has been laid at the feet of those radical Christians, right where it belongs.
You guys just keep your heads in the sand while the rest of the world goes by us laughing while their children are educated with the skills necessary in our high tech world. The next time you see a real ‘rocket scientist’ ask him how much being told that ID is a possibility has hindered his goal to be a high tech scientist.
You’ve ridden that horse about as far as he can go. For heaven’s sake take the saddle off and let him go to the barn. We have real problems here and it is the under education of our children. Start stressing the real skills needed. Stop trying to resolve an age old question. This is all a smoke screen to hide the fact that our educators aren’t educating in the important subjects.
No one has ever told educators they can’t teach those subjects and principles that will prepare our students to compete in the research fields. Why aren’t they doing it?
Connie Morris? Ken Willard?
Those are the reasons I can think of why they “aren’t doing it”!
Ksfrm tell me in what instance this insane argument over ID vs. evolution has lessened the science and math skills which should have been taught to our students. Putting in ID as a possiblility would take a few minutes a year to cover and that certainly leaves a lot of time to teach the basics. This is a tired argument used by liberals to explain why our public schools are failing our students.
As a scientist I am much more concerned about the overall lack of scientific literacy among the general lay public than I am about any supposed shortage of scientists. If good career opportunities at good pay are there people will go into the scientific fields.
Ksgrm,
You’re asking an easy question. The more kids who are told, at every possible opportunity, that science is bad and religion/dogma is good, the fewer who will take _any_ line of scientific inquiry seriously.
ksgrm,
Science is unlike history, english, or any of the other humanities or social sciences. It is not an “equal” time curriculum. We no longer teach kids about an invisible substance called “caloric” that carries heat around. We no longer teach about phlogiston. We no longer accept the simple picture of an atom as a small solar system with the nucleus and planets circling round it. We no longer accept spontaneous generation. These issues can be taught in a history of science class, or in a science class when talking about the major paths to today’s understanding. ID has NEVER fit into the science curriculum on either count.
ID also does not meet the definition of science. It is ultimately untestable (no experimemt has been developed that can test its predictions), it is pretty much unmodifiable, then, as new facts are discovered, because there are no new facts to be discovered.
If you do a search of the peer reviewed scientific literature over the past ten years for papers supporying the concept of common descent – over 190,000. If you do the same search for ID – exactly 1.
Please don’t tell me this is a vast conspiracy of cabal of atheist scientists who control the journals of the world. If you believe this, I have some property in downtown Baghdad you might be interested in.
Several reasons that that there are less math/science majors
1) science/math classes are not dependent on the writings of oprah or dr phil
2) there are no cliff notes for thermodynamics
3) science/math educators are more interested in asking “did you get that?” than “how did that make you feel?”
4) there are less “well, your interperetation is good” classes such as in literature
5) The big media makes big noises about business successes and their big money rewards. When was the last article in business week about a scientist?
6) Not Everyone is willing to put out the work to get a math/science degree.
7) Science/math teachers could basically care less if you are a liberal or a conservative
8) Calculus isn’t as much fun as basic algebra
9) what is the male/female ratio in math/science classes vs the male/female ratio in liberal arts classes
10) who wants to be a nerd?
Littlejohn,
Very funny! VERY TRUE!
Thanks for the perspective and the laugh.
Not to pick on any group of teachers, but what I have observed is that College Professors do a better job at teaching the basics than the lower grades K-12. Anyone care to comment on that?
I’ve also noticed, that College Professors usually end up re-teaching the basics once the kids get of college age.
I looked at nieces and nephews books and school notes frequently as I can. The information is there and it is pretty good information (ages 15-21.)
So, where could the problem lay?
My guess is maturity and acceptance of responsibility by students is way down from what it used to be.
My other guess is discipline. When you go to College, you pay real dollars and if you get out of line, campus security comes to arrest you. Even though security is similar on College campuses to those of big high school, I think it is better enforced at the Collegiate level.
Also, in the lower grades, there seems to be some sort of detention hall cures all philosophy. But I think it just perpetuates problems.
The common factor is that parents don’t have to dole out the bucks for lower grades school, so they tend to care less and the students tend to care less, because there is nothing to lose for skating through classes or being a minor discipline problem.
It’s odd that the issue may be about dollars. But that’s just my opinion.
I see another problem with science education. It seems that in the primary level the teachers sre not comfortable with the subject. So, they stick with the lesson plan and are afraid to deviate. If they get a question from ‘left field’ they don’t know how to react.
I did a sort of ‘guest lecture’ to my son’s grade school class on the water cycle. The teacher ahd drawn it out vary carefully on the board – but when I got questions I could tell she was uncertain. I was in my element; that was the best part.
A question on water pollution led me to develop a little demonstration for a later class. She asked me if I had tested and practiced ot to make sure it would work right. My response: “Of course not; that is why we call it RESEARCH!”
I think the kids get the impression that science is extremely difficult if the teacher is not comfortable with it. On the other hand, I think I gave them an impression that it can be fascinating and fun.
Ben I still challenge you to tell me of one instance where the presenting of a line of explanation in a textbook stating that some people believe in ID has harmed the pursuit of scientific education.
The failure of educators to get students involved in and interested in pursuing fields which require good math and science backgrounds has created a generation of dumbed down students with little basic education when they enter the work force.
I was a non-traditional student in a large class of traditional students. There were three of us nons and when we had group assignments, the trads argued with the instructor over who got the nons. It wasn’t because of our sparkling personalities but because we could form whole sentences and had a basic knowledge they had failed to acquire.
Who is to blame for this? We are graduating high school students that can’t even fill out a job application. Some with a college degree have no saleable skills. Where does the blame lie here? I saw no instance where evolution/ID would have made any difference.
To long we have tried to solve the problem by throwing money at it. This is my contention. Arguing over irrelevant subjects. If we can blame the high dropout rate on two right wing school board members then we don’t have to face the real problem. Our education systems are failing our students. What are we going to do about it?
“Ben I still challenge you to tell me of one instance where the presenting of a line of explanation in a textbook stating that some people believe in ID has harmed the pursuit of scientific education.”
ksgrm,
I would claim you are one mild casualty of the science/ID debate. The fact that you want to include ID in a science class indicates that you don’t see why ID is not science.
There are obviously people who have swallowed ID hook, line and sinker.
Who will it harm ? Consider the example of Medieval Islam…it was the light of the world in terms of science/mathematics, physics, medicine….And yet, when the conservative fundamentalist got power in the 1200s…well, we know what Middle East is like today.
ksgrm – I am not one who made that claim. Since I exited the field of science education before ID became ’science’ I really don’t know.
Back when I was in the field we taught science in science class and philosophy in philosophy class. We didn’t teach about space aliens in science class either.
I am not a proponent of teaching ID in school. In fact I would say it shouldn’t be taught if asked. What I am saying is that when faced with the failure of the public schools in math and science, the following was the first comment.
“Maybe one of the reasons we don’t have a lot of science grads is because of the Republican “War On Science” that has been going on. The War on Science mandates the teaching of the Biblical Christian view of science instead of the facts and theories of mankind. Many scince teachers just say to hell with it and teach something else less controversial.”
Posted by: Kev | May 29, 2007 at 06:06 AM
Followed by:”You’re asking an easy question. The more kids who are told, at every possible opportunity, that science is bad and religion/dogma is good, the fewer who will take _any_ line of scientific inquiry seriously.
Posted by: Tom | May 29, 2007 at 09:33 AM
Followed by:Connie Morris? Ken Willard?
Those are the reasons I can think of why they “aren’t doing it”!
Posted by: ksfasrmgrrl | May 29, 2007 at 09:18 AM
Liberal apologists who refuse to look at a problem in the face and say we have a problem that needs fixing.
It isn’t a right wing conspiracy to dumb down our kids, it is a failure of our school system. What are we going to do about it?
Ben what I think everyone is missing in this argument is the fact that ID is not being taught now nor has it ever been taught in depth. One line in a textbook doesn’t undermine an entire year of science education.
My point is that many on this blog identify the problem as right wing dogma vs pure science. This couldn’t be further from the truth. It simply isn’t taught in the schools. The problem is that the teaching of science is ineffective and many refuse to accept the fact that ID proponents are not the problem.
I have read all the posts on this topic. The one missing element is “No Child Left Behind”. K-12 schools all teach and lecture to the test given at the end of the year. This policy is ridiculous. It ties federal funding to student scores. This is why you don’t have more students excelling in math and science. It doesn’t surprise me to hear of college professors having to reteach these subjects. The public school system is failing due to how the federal funds are dispearsed. Why hasn’t anybody brought this point up?
I tend to agree with you ksgrm. I think there are a LOT of problems with science education as i noted above. However, since I do NOT believe we have a shortage of scientists I am more concerned with the ’scientific literacy’ issue.
i also agree with mike that ‘teaching to the test’ is a part of the problem.
Mike-just ask yourself two questions.1) how long has “no child” been in effect?2) How long have there been deficiencies in the math ans science area?
after you answer those two questions, you will find the answer to yours.
LJI agree that “no child” is not the only problem. But, it is a huge deterent now to those students that may not be gifted in these areas but show a strong aptitude. We must find a way to encourage teachers to spend more time with students that are on the “bubble” between being an excellent student and being “gifted” to cultivate their abilities. You are right, there has been deficiencies in this area for some time. With “no child” we will only fall further behind the rest of the world.
Mike-I do think “no child” has some serious flaws, but think it’s intentions are good, if you (not you specifically) think central planning of education is good. I generally do not. However, it it is a little contrary, I think in general, that there does need to be some sort of expected outcome, in the area of knowledge exposure and retention. Tests are a standard way of measuring that. Not necessarily a good way, but an easily “scoreable” one that is less subjective that some teachers would like. I generally don;t like the idea of federal control of education, so “no child” is not my favorite baby.Unfortunately, I am unable to define a more definitive way of measuring success than standardized tests (whether at the state of federal level)
“As a scientist I am much more concerned about the overall lack of scientific literacy among the general lay public than I am about any supposed shortage of scientists. If good career opportunities at good pay are there people will go into the scientific fields.Posted by: Ben | May 29, 2007 at 09:33 AM “
That said a lot; take for sample a machinist job and/or manufacturing job, both of them required mathematics and science.
How bout this LJ, let’s make the education system work for all students and not just those that have learning difficulties. The way “no child” works is this…..you teach to the slowest child in the class. All the other students have to wait on the slow students to catch up(slow can be defined in many ways…behavioral, mental, etc.). Let’s make public schools like their private counterparts. If your child cannot behave then kick them out. We should have schools that cater to the behavior challenged, learning disabled, etc.. This way students that excell can move at their own pace. Public education is a benefit of our society, however, parents treat it like public daycare. Make those kids/parents go to a school that can meet their needs. Then you will see a change in schools.
Mike-
Some good ideas there. I think that there is room for a massive revision to the school system. I think accountability needs to be redesigned into the school system. for both students and parents. You are right about parents thinking it’s public daycare. God forgid that you call them at work to come get their unruly or even sick child. There are some schools that do cater to some of the special needs students, as there are whole special education coops that are contracted to by the school districts. Many are ineffective. Many teachers are ineffective. Make them like the private sector also. keep the good, throw out the bad. If more than 50% of your class fails, you fail. Superientendants,teachers, students, and parents need to be held accountable. Give each child the best possible shot.
While I agree with you, Mike, the way the Special Ed law is written would, as I read it, flatly prohibit following your suggestion. “Least restrictive alternatives” and all that. The goal of Special Ed is integration into a “regular ed” classroom to the greatest extent possible of the Special Ed student, as I understand it.
While there are special schools for a small group of Special Ed students in 259 (Levy and Wells come to mind), there are no separate schools for the classification you promote (those that can excel). The closest is the IB program at East High, which, for all its good points, has some issues of its own with which the district must grapple, including racial balance under the Consent Decree. It’s my opinion that this is why the IB program is a part of East High School, rather than being a “stand alone” school.
There are some “special ed” parents who are in denial over their student’s disabilities/disorders who would use the courts to force a district to allow their students into a regular ed school, if an attempt was made to segregate students by abilities. Again, as I read the law, these folks would win in most cases.
Mike-
Some good ideas there. I think that there is room for a massive revision to the school system. I think accountability needs to be redesigned into the school system. for both students and parents. You are right about parents thinking it’s public daycare. God forgid that you call them at work to come get their unruly or even sick child. There are some schools that do cater to some of the special needs students, as there are whole special education coops that are contracted to by the school districts. Many are ineffective. Many teachers are ineffective. Make them like the private sector also. keep the good, throw out the bad. If more than 50% of your class fails, you fail. Superientendants,teachers, students, and parents need to be held accountable. Give each child the best possible shot. Education of it’s citizenry should one of the top priorities of the government.
“There are some “special ed” parents who are in denial over their student’s disabilities/disorders who would use the courts to force a district to allow their students into a regular ed school, if an attempt was made to segregate students by abilities.”
Vaughn Tolle, rightly so that the parents do win those cases.Segregation causes isolation, isolation causes social diseases.
sorry about the double post thing. IE died on me a couple of times, guess my computer didn’t like me. Anyway, my apologies.
Grm,
Do you have a suggestion for the problem you identify?
As Bill Gates contends, I think the biggest problem with our public school education is at the high school level. My kid goes to a USD 259 magnet school where the kids there want to be there. The total enrollment is about 500 kids – instead of over 2000. The classes are 4 90 min. classes rather than 8 45 min. classes. Subjects are studied indepth. There are 3 areas of emphasis – science, arts, law. My kid is in the science emphasis. There are concentrations of engineering and medical/biology/life sciences within the science emphasis.
From the freshman year forward there is an emphasis for preparing for college.
On various standardized tests this school consistently out-performs Andover, Maize, Goddard and the other affluent white-flight schools.
Excellence can be achieved in city public schools. Are we ready for the next step of having all schools adopt rigorous standards? I am not sure this curriculum would work for all high school students.
Is the answer to do like they do in England and identify kids and put them in various tracks? – for example no one knew what to do with Keith Richards (of the Rolling Stones) so they put him in an art track — that may have worked better than they planned. Don’t know that the track system would work, or be accepted here, or not.
I also think the ID dysinformation campaign may be a different subject from how to improve our public schools.
VaughnAs I respect your interpretation of the law, I am not saying to expell the “special needs” children. I take issue with the “regular” children that have behavior issues not being held accountable. These are the kids that cause constant disruption due to outside influences(I can’t be more politically correct than that). The kids of parents that treat public schools like public daycare. Show some committment to the parents of children and teachers that go to school and work hard. Get rid of the kids/parents that have no respect for the system.
Next, give teachers a raise. If teaching paid 80k per year then our best and brightest would apply for the jobs.Want more scientists etc.? Make teaching a top paid profession.
Lastly, I am aware of the “special needs” schools in the city. When I define “special needs” I am referring to all disablities. Not just the severe, physical or mental disabilities. There should be a program for ad/hd, and all the other hidden disorders. This is not desegrating the regular classroom, it is enabling all students with the best possible enviroment for success.
And I do agree with you and LJ. We should privatize the whole deal. Make the cream rise to the top. If you fail then you are fired. Give that 80k a year job to someone that can teach.
Mike –“If teaching paid 80k per year then our best and brightest would apply for the jobs.Want more scientists etc.? Make teaching a top paid profession.”
Teachers are not the whole picture, how a better administration?After all they are the ones that direct the teachers.
That is suppose to be how “about” a better administration?
I have the tendency to leave out words; I never did any good on writing.
Sure Wiseman. If the administration is the problem then change is needed there too. Raising teacher pay to 80k would mean raising the pay of administration as well. Want better administrators? Get the leaders of industry to be school administrators. This again will bring the best and brightest. Our society views teachers, police, fire fighters, etc. as 2 nd rate. Our priorities are screwed up across the board. Until we realize that we can’t expect more from them. Pay increases are just one way. Privitization is another. But really, who are we kidding? Teachers make 30k per year. Cops make 30k per year. In today’s economy that is just above poverty. The funniest thing is that you have to have a degree to work there. Why go to college and get a degree so you can make 30k per year?
Here we go again, trying to apply the business model on public education. Forget it, this isn’t going to happen. Children are not widgets.
You have some very good points in your comments, Mike.All the occupations that you are talking about seem to be related infrastructure and we do have our priorities mixed up, it shows in how we handle our infrastructures.There is too much emphasis on the culture of big businesses, marketing and corporate leadership, not enough on basic foundation of society.
Children may not be widgets but there are many things that can be cross-applied from business to education. Quality control is a key metric (or should be) for most businesses, could that be improved in school by applying some business techniques? How about hiring and firing of workers (teachers and administrators) and performance based pay? How about applying business management techniques within the school system to get good decision making and forward looking policies of improving upon the present?
BrianAll of your suggestions should be considered. There should be a mix of business management techniques involved in the school system. Hire and fire off of performance is surely going to get the attention of educators. The whole system needs to be revamped. The “no child” policy(much like Iraq) is a failed policy. Seems like the administration is clueless on most issues that face the normal public.
Children are not widgets. This is true. We are failing them and that is a fact. My kids are not widgets but I would like for them to be up to speed with the rest of the world’s children when it comes to education. The current system sucks and as long as the public stays with cranial rectum inversion nothing will change.
More on Intelligent Design:
http://www.livescience.com/history/top10_intelligent_designs.html
We should shift from a poorly controlled mass production operation to a custom job-shop environment to truely give each child the best education that particular child can get.
One thing that must be kept in mind however is that the ultimate responsibility for educating a child rests with the parents. Always remember that fact before criticizing teachers and the school system. Sure there are things that can be fixed, but there comes a point when we must turn to the parents with the finger of blame. As is said, you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.
The problems with “No Child Left Behind” as implemented are many. First, there is left to each state to design its own assessment program, leading to systems that may be “gamed” IMHO. If it is determined that there is to be a federal law regulating “accountability”, then why not have one standardized set of assessments at the federal level, with uniform performance standards set there? Second, the reliance upon an easily scored multiple choice assessment again allows the system to be “gamed” through certain test taking techniques, with no demonstration of knowledge. Third, the emphasis is on making all “proficient” or better, which may well lead to overall mediocrity. Fourth, its goal of 100% proficiency is not atainable.
I’m all for the idea of accountability of schools, but the issue here, as far as I’m able to determine, is that there is no corresponding accountability on the part of students. Until students can be held accountable for their actions/inactions, then the whole NCLB approach falls flat IMHO.
Back to the initial topic. Senator Roberts is correct, again IMO, in his assertion that math and science education is a matter of national security. Even if the students do not go into these fields as their ultimate professions, better education in these areas help by forming a more well-educated public at large in the area of science, in particular. This will be of benefit to the Republic.
Like Steven Davis’ student, our two daughters attended the same magnet high school, and received a good, solid education in preparation for college. This is a public school, with as diverse a student body as one might find anywhere in the district. I don’t think its approach will work district-wide, but there are many good things going on there which deserve looks by other schools. However, the one thing it has going for it that the comprehensive high schools don’t is that the students are there by CHOICE, not because it is the high school to be attended as a result of residence. That cannot be duplicated unless all high schools in the district are open to whomever wants to attend a particular site, irrespective of residence. Of course, that opens a Pandora’s Box of issues when participation in extracurricular activities, particularly athletics, is considered. Recruiting, anyone?
I do not believe public education can be privatized. It can, and must, be made better for students of all abilities. The question becomes just how to do this in the best way; there are many proposed solutions, and it seems each comes with its own set of problems. I know I don’t have the solution for the ills affecting education, whether public or private, but I keep looking. I hope others will do the same.
Wow. A constructive discussion on WE Blog? Say it isn’t so! I know what was missing…..the neo-con side of the issue. Vaughn, Brian….I appreciate your thoughts on this subject. I agree with your points and hope that someone with some influence might be lucky enough to read it.
Mike, I agree that Brian’s thoughts are well-considered. I’ve been making several of my arguments over time as a member of a Site Council. I keep doing it in the hope that someone in a position of authority will listen. BTW, for all reading; be involved with a school, as a member of the Site Council, or in some other way. I don’t know how much of a difference you’ll make, but if you’re not there, you can’t make one.
First off, the ID problem showed how ugly it was when we had every comedian in the country making a laughing stock of Kansas. Wow, I really want all the kids I know getting a higher education in Kansas, when the rest of the business world looks at all academic records from Kansas with a skeptical eye.
Second, to make both science and math more interesting, make damn sure the people teaching it are qualified to do so. Then use the room/lab approach for both subjects. I learned more about chemistry in lab, then room. But what I learned in the lab, sometimes required the room to bring it all together.
Many good thoughts here. I think the magnets are a great idea. Like minded students allowed to advance at their own pace. Our children were in something like this in Oklahoma years ago. They were called progressive schools. What this meant was that the smartest child in the class was allowed to advance at their own pace and the slowest kid got the help they needed to succeed also. There was no ‘class level’. They were measured at grade levels at the end of the year.
As for having all ADHD kids in the same room. Sorry I couldn’t go for that. Have you ever set in a room with two or three AD kids? An entire roomful of these kids would be nothing but babysitting all day. No learning would take place. These children deserve an education also. I was against the ‘no kid left behind’ at first. But after doing some volunteering in the public schools I see that it has made the administration take a much larger roll in working with the underachievers to keep their school from receiving a failing grade.
I mentioned on the blogs a few months ago that teachers needed to teach and not be social engineers. I don’t think ID should be taught in public schools. I also don’t think the kind of thing that happened in Boulder High School in Colorado should be happening.
We need to get back to the basics. We had a good education system before all of the ‘improvements’ were made. Even with larger classrooms students learned the basics.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55800
This is just my own humble opinion.
The Relgious Nutcase Taliban will never stop its crusades against science and literature. I just learned today that one of my kids might be a WITCH! That is true because he read a HARRY POTTER book and the religious fundies say that makes our children WITCHES! So I came home ASAP and ask her to board a broom and jump off the porch. Thankfully she fell to the ground and I said “oh we caught you in time before you became a WITCH!
http://www.ajc.com/gwinnett/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2007/05/29/0530gwxpotter.html
ksgrm……any time you cite a “story” from “Worldnet”, it automatically disqulaifies anything you post. That’s like statting that the FAUX (FOX) “network” delivers unbiased news.