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Open thread
- By Phillip Brownlee
- Posted May 18, 2007 at 1:05 a.m.
- Filed under Open thread
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283 Comments
The proposed amnesty for illegal aliens has so many problems, ethically, morally and for business.Ethically, it is like “well we have so many bank robbers that it would be almost impossible to enforce the laws against bank robbery. So we will just reward them a legal way for robbing the bank.”.Amnesty has been tried before and that worked so well that more illegals came across the boarder.As human beings they desire to have a good life, but the bank robber only want to improve their lives too!ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL, this is the worst case example of the majority rules.
Morally, to the thousands that have followed the rule and came the long road to this country it is a slap in the face. Like ethically, it is a affront to those that follow the laws and makes doing so a mockery for being so foolish as to follow the laws. “Why should I work forty hours a week, when I can rob the bank and make the same amount of money?”.
For business, several large companies use the illegal work force as a hinge pin for their profit. A local bottling company once lost most of their second shift to a immigration raid. The following morning a person looking for a job went to apply for a job and was told that all opening had been filled. He pointed out that he knew that over twenty of their workers had been arrested the night before. The response of the interviewer, “Well if you are willing to work for a dollar and a half an hour… We will hire you too!”.The present lack of enforcement has been a benefit to business, lower wages, higher profit and no need to pay many of the required fees and fines by having a illegal worker. I can fore-see a large behind the scenes fight by business to stop this plan and fostering the feelings of the public to be used as front men.I am not in favor of the use of illegals which to me has the same argument as to the benefit of bring back slavery. But such an issue will make for strange bedfellows, people like me who see it as a slap in the face and business who use it as a profit angle.
So I can see that yes this is another emancipation issue, certainly giving these illegals a way to work lawfully and entitled to the same benefits afforded to legal citizens. Will be a different side of the ethically and moral issue. But to argue the points of ethics and morality in favor would demand the that you also have to recognize that it is also a issue on the other side.
If you really want to do something about “high gas prices” then buy less of it. Demand goes down, so do prices. That is why gas cost much less in the winter than in the summer.
The immigration bill sounds OK but there are things in it I don’t like. We should not fine the immigrants for sneaking over here and doing dirty work we don’t want to do. Make them pay back taxes absolutely but no fine. I do like some of the other things in it including changing emphasis on immigration from family ties to education and skills. Most countries including Canada already do this. Immigrants who obtain citizenship should only be allowed to bring their spouses and minor children- not their brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts and everybody else. Like they say, the devil is in the details and I want to see the whole thing.
Re; Writerdog comment,
Right on, it’s about time someone reminded us all this is just a LACK of enforcement and not a great crusade for the down troden.
I can not respect the illegals who rape our health care, have children by the dozen, who can claim no country of origin really, and pay no real property taxes leaving the bill for all this to the real citizens to pay again!!!
Why has the Army banned Dragon Skin? Quite possibly the best body armor available today.
Amnesty round 2. It is encourage more illegal immigrants who, in a couple years, will demonstrate and demand their ‘rights’. Where will it end? With over 2.8 BILLION people living in poverty around the world, shall we just allow them all to come here because they can’t get a job in their own country?
Kiss this country goodbye….
“it WILL” not “it is”…not enough coffee yet…
There is a method to the madness of granting the illegals citizenship.
This is one area of the Republican Party I don’t like – and don’t support.
The illegals will vote Republican. There have been studies done that show they will. Here’s why. Something like 93% of the illegal Mexicans are Catholic. Strong Catholic. The push through the RCC is for its members to vote prolife no matter which side the candidate is on. Here in KS, the RCC pushed a Democrat for Governor a few years ago – and, lo and behold, she was elected. Finney.
So, while the RCC will not tell the members to vote for the GOP candidate – they will tell them to vote for the prolife one. 90% of the time – that is a GOP’er.
However, in my opinion, this is a short-term ‘fix’ that will not only devastate this country – but will reverse its usefulness within two generations. That’s about as long as it takes for people to begin to lose family traditions when exposed to counter input.
The is a lose/lose proposition all the way across the board.
The GOP MAY be reelected early on – due to this, but that will be at its apex, and after the spike – it will drop off rapidly.
Anyway, that’s my thoughts – the analysis part. The fact that the move is to court votes is real. I’ve been with some of our legislature when they’ve been discussing it months ago.
Article on Dragon Skin Ban:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-30-bodyarmor_x.htm
Just posted for edification, draw your own conclusions.
From what I read, two points exists:(1) The Army doesn’t authorize the use of body armor purchased privately and use in the combat sector.(2) The Army has tested the Dragon Skin Armor and found the results disappointing.
Wednesday, May 16, 2007
Pelosi’s Gambit [Jonah Goldberg]
Boehner’s office just sent this out:
DEMOCRATS TO CHANGE 185 YEAR-OLD HOUSE RULE TO ALLOW TAX HIKES WITHOUT HAVING TO VOTE
May 16, 2007
In a stunning move, House Democrats today revealed they will attempt to rewrite House rules that have gone unchanged since 1822 in order to make it possible to increase taxes and government spending without having to vote and be held accountable. House Republican Leader John Boehner (R-OH) today vowed Republicans will use every available means to fight this unprecedented change.
“This is an astonishing attempt by the majority leadership to duck accountability for tax-and-spend policies the American people do not want,” Boehner said. “The majority leadership is gutting House rules that have been in place for 185 years so they can raise taxes and increase government spending without a vote. House Republicans will use every tool available to fight this abuse of power.”
Last November, House Democratic leaders promised the most open, ethical Congress in history:
“[W]e promised the American people that we would have the most honest and most open government and we will.” (Nancy Pelosi press stakeout, December 6, 2006)
“We intend to have a Rules Committee … that gives opposition voices and alternative proposals the ability to be heard and considered on the floor of the House.” (Steny Hoyer in CongressDaily PM, December 5, 2006)
The rules House Democrats are seeking to change have not been changed since 1822.Republicans have already achieved significant legislative successes on the House floor with 11 consecutive “motion-to-recommit” victories that exposed flaws and substantively improved weaknesses in underlying Democrat bills. But rather than living by the same rules which have guided the House of Representatives for 185 years, Democrats are proposing to change the rules in order to game the system and raise taxes and increase spending without a House vote. What are House Democrats afraid of?http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NjlkMGM2YjJjMDZmMzlhMDA0YzdiM2E3ODMwZjA0NWU=
How Antarctica is not melting away.
What Climate Changes Does Antarctica Predict
the Antarctic peninsular (Western Antarctica) that the situation with glaciers is different. In some places, they are retreating, but in many places they are stable and even on the onslaught. Glaciers are not melting quickly even in Antarctica’s warmest area. But the bulk of ice is in Antarctica’s cooler eastern regions, which means that the situation is pretty safe.
“…the Russian Vostok station located in central Antarctica – the world’s Pole of Cold (the minimal temperature – 88.3C) – has not registered any significant changes in average annual temperatures over 50 years of observations. It rose from -55.7C in the early 1960s to -55.2C in the middle 1980s, but went down by one tenth of a grade (to -55.3C) in the beginning of the 21st century.”
http://www.terradaily.com/reports/What_Climate_Changes_Does_Antarctica_Predict_999.html
Permanent Ice Fields Are Resisting Global Warming
“The small ice caps of Mont Blanc and the Dome du Gouter are not melting, or at least, not yet. This is what CNRS researchers have announced in the Journal of Geophysical Research.”by Staff WritersParis, France (SPX) May 17, 2007http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Permanent_Ice_Fields_Are_Resisting_Global_Warming_999.html
More spew from Republican’s right-wing noise machine.
Democrats are very clear on reversing Bush’s tax breaks for the rich.
As for the bogus global warming claims from “Idon’tknowsh*t.com,” check this out:WASHINGTON (Reuters) — The Southern Ocean around Antarctica is so loaded with carbon dioxide that it can barely absorb any more, so more of the gas will stay in the atmosphere to warm up the planet, scientists reported Thursday.
Human activity is the main culprit, said researcher Corinne Le Quere, who called the finding very alarming.
The phenomenon wasn’t expected to be apparent for decades, Le Quere said in a telephone interview from the University of East Anglia in Britain.
“We thought we would be able to detect these only the second half of this century, say 2050 or so,” she said. But data from 1981 through 2004 show the sink is already full of carbon dioxide. “So I find this really quite alarming.”
The Southern Ocean is one of the world’s biggest reservoirs of carbon, known as a carbon sink. When carbon is in a sink — whether it’s an ocean or a forest, both of which can lock up carbon dioxide — it stays out of the atmosphere and does not contribute to global warming.***more: http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/science/05/17/climate.ocea
Capn…why is it that anyone who disagrees with you get the lines like :
“More spew from Republican’s right-wing noise machine”? Other people are entitled to an opinion, and just because it differs from yours does not make it wrong, nor does it entitle you to continually ridicule and lambast the messenger because you don’t like their opinion.
You and farmie–who attacks people based on the TIME of their posts–are quite the duo.
Raptor, would you like a little cheese to go with your constant whine?
I dont care who posts when. I do think it is funny that casual observation will tell you that the repukes here take turns being the FIRST poster on the open thread every day.
A few times of that happening are no big deal. Having it happen consistantly tells me it is a deliberate effort. No problem, just laughable. The smell of wingnut desperation.
But please feel free to whine about me anytime. It makes you look like the macho guy you really are. Or at least pretend to be.
Obviously, farmie, you don’t bother to read your own posts:
“heheheheheeh! I think the wingnut on call today forgot his wake up call to be the first reich wing poster at 2am.
This has obviously prompted him to try and make up for it by producing quantity, not quality.
Scroll over territory.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | May 17, 2007 at 08:48 AM”
Your personal attacks on me are unjustified as well as extremely juvenile. Saying that is not whining as you like to characterize it, but simple truth. I did nothing to justify your comments about my pretending to be a macho guy or whatever. I simply asked for a little grown up civility in this discourse since the ongoing personal attacks are quite boring.
But..that is obviously not possible here, is it? Asking for people to act like adults is simply out of reach for many people here.
Is it impossible to have a rational discourse on issues without personal attacks? Clearly not for some people.
Open Note to Anyone Working Retail:
Please do not look confused or irritated when I bring in canvas shopping bags. Also, having explained what the bags are for, I do not expect for you to attempt to charge me for said canvas bags or begin putting my items into the plastic bags anyway. This is rude and give the impression that you are not listening to me, your customer.I know you haven’t encountered this bags much around here, but it is my hope that you will see more of them sprout up!
Thanks for you time!
P.S. If anyone is interested earthwisebags.com has nice shopping bags for about $1/ea.
Ok, rap. Thanks for letting us know that infernal whining is your default setting.
I’m still wondering though, would you indeed like some cheese to go with that whine?
Mega dittos, Grrl.
Raptor brings nothing to the table except the whine.
Rap, the WE Blog is not the place for opinion pieces.
I myself do re-post stuff from other websites from time to time, but only when it has a solid basis in fact.
Anybody can cut-and-paste from the Wall Street Journal editoral page, National Review, Weekly Standard, Krauthammer, George Will, Cal Thomas, Thomas Sowell and all the other reich-wingers who take one small and common fact and whip it up into the “outrage d’ jour.”
Information, we’re interested in.
Opinions of the pundit class? Save it.
Enviro – I think at least some stores do the opposite – give you a credit for not using their bags and thus saving them money.
We have a nice European mesh bag we use from time to time.
Lemme see if I have this right. When Capn says somthing like:
“More spew from Republican’s right-wing noise machine” it is provable FACT, but nobody else is supposed to express an opinion?
Right. You bet. NOW I get it..the rules according to Capn:”..the WE Blog is not the place for opinion pieces”
Ah . . . I see now why I confused Raptor.
He’s really, really dumb.
Let me type it slower for you:
R e p o s t i n g c o l u m n i s t’ s o p i n i o n s i s b a d.
P o s t i n g y o u r o w n i n d e p e n d e n t o p i n i o n i s g o o d.
I hope that word “independent” wasn’t too big for you . . .
Yes, Ben, Dillons (at least) will give you credit at 5 cents/bag.
Notice how Capn and ksfarmgrrl always include “reich” wing when they comment. They aren’t mature enough to show respect to include multiple millions of people who hate anything associated with Nazis.
Thank you, Capn and Farmie for proving my point so eloquently. It is impossible for anyone to express an opinion that differs from yours without being subjected to personal ridicule.
Your juvenile responses proved my intial observation quite well. Dismiss it by calling it whining all you want…it doesn’t change the fact.
well repub, if the shoe fits and all…
And JM is whining about respect?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!
Good grief rap, it’s your DAILY whine about almost everyone who isnt you.
Capn and I are just the whine de jur.
Hmmm, I wonder what number “whine about respect” should be assigned…
What about the millions of people who grow weary of being called “Anti-American cheese eating surrender monkeys?”
I think the term “reich” winger fits well. Your parties constant pursuit of global domination is very apparent. The positions taken by the right often represent a vision very similiar to Nazi Germany. The truth hurts Republican.
Hey, Raptor,Answer one question. Why are you not an equal-opportunity co-dependent defender? You only come to the defense of posters like republican – who, as we both know, are never insulting or belittling of people. It has been at least a day of two since he’s graced us with one of his rambling rants about democrats. /sarcasm.
While I am sure in your mind you strive to be objective. Your calls civility from libs only, kind of gives you away.
Well ya know Tom, repub has no respect for “”Anti-American cheese eating surrender monkeys?”
Can we assign a number to “anyone who doesnt worship bush hates america”?
Just for the purpose of brevity.
Looks in…
Sees strained peas and poop covering cribs and walls. Hears children screaming and crying.
Walks out…
Well, at least outlander is occasionally funny. Not whiney like some folks here…
Funny thing, there were no problems on the WE blog until the Fisters came back.
The problem we had before is when the Fisters were here in abundance.
Coincidence?
I think not.
After the Fisters left, issues were discussed intelligently and without ad hominem.
We they came back, it was deja vu all over again.
So, where lay the problems?
The Fisters of course – they are the ones they have always caused the problem on the WE Blog.
GS,
Didn’t I hear a couple of weeks ago that the people of Mexico City voted to allow abortions in the first trimester? The Pope, as I heard, was very unhappy about this. That could blow a small hole in your “Catholics against abortion voting Republican” claim. Very small, but it’s there.
And just so you know, I agree with writerdog. ILLEGAL IS ILLEGAL.
This just in: Operation Rescue radicals are going to spend tomorrow going to the neighborhoods of Dr. Tiller’s employees, and protest in their private homes.
This is nothing but intimidation. They are going to parade up and down quiet residential streets with their giant pictures of aborted fetuses.
I fully support free speech in the “public square,” but harassing people in their homes, harassing their neighbors and their neighbor’s children, goes beyond decency. Shame on Troy Neuman, shame on Operation Rescue, and shame on anyone who thinks this kind of behavior is civilized.
“The Fisters of course – they are the ones they have always caused the problem on the WE Blog.”
Hate the truth, and want to reserve the bs for yourself, do ya, republicant?
I see the comic of the day is posting his Fisters-are-the-Problem propoganda again.
Of course it was quiet. You only had yourself to agree with. I recall some nasty remarks made against those who weren’t here, only because they weren’t here to argue with.
It takes two to tango.
Protest *at* their private homes, not in.
“The management regrets the error”
Nope Roxann…
There were Liberals here, they were not the spew mouth kind. They actually discussed the issues.
This just in: Operation Rescue radicals are going to spend tomorrow going to the neighborhoods of Dr. Tiller’s employees, and protest in their private homes.
Dumbasses.
Yes it is shameful Tom. But since when has operation rescue had any shame?
Shameless. Lawless.
And still the pride of wichita, no doubt.
Oh, and does ANYONE play the poor pitiful victim better than JM/republican or rap?
Academy award material. Reminds me of the fainting goats.
Please define “Fister” for those of us that are new to the Blog.
repub calling someone else “spew mouth”?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAH!
Feel my “liberal acid breath”?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHHAHAHHAHAH!
Well I guess I was wrong. repub is funny too, just in a sad and laughable bad Hemingway manner.
I think Fleettwood or SOB coined the phrase Fisters. The Liberal whiners ran off to suck their fists when they thought their venomous spew was becoming ineffective or when they had it thrown back in their face.
They called themselves “Fists of Fury” or some such dumb name – thus the term “Fisters” arose for brevity and humor sakes. :)
Hate to disillusion you Steve..but I was asking a question, not defending anyone. I started by asking capn a civil question…and get personal insults in response.
Thanks Republican
Just more poop the cons love to fling against the wall, Mike.
Oh, and something else to project on others. You know the drill.
Operation Rescue radicals are going to spend tomorrow going to the neighborhoods of Dr. Tiller’s employees, and protest in (at) their private homes.
I hope those employees and there neighbors who are picketed / protested have CC permits to protect / defend themselves from this arrogant intrusion going beyond the public right of way — if they don’t have a parade permit they should be jailed …………
I believe they signed their demands as “Fists of Freedom” or some such, demanding that the Eagle set up protections on the blog or they would leave. They did leave..for a little while.
“Operation Rescue radicals”
Isnt that redundant?
…and where did the name stealing troll go after the boycott?
Havent seen his red ass around here lately.
If three people left the blog, the blog would become tolerable once again – CapnAmerican, ksfarmgrrl and WSClark.
Those are the main trouble makers.
Steven Davis and Pedant can get provocative, but at least they discuss the issues in an intelligent manner without making an insult every third word.
So sayeth the blog master…
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA!
…and since we make this blog intolerable (hehehehe) why are you still here?
You have your own multiple blogs that you pimp here relentlessly. Perhaps you would be happier there than here?
And there’s always freeperville. Since we’re so intolerable and all…
And I’m expecting a JM style meltdown in 3-2-1…
ken -
Surely you don’t advocate using a CC weapon to “protect” yourself from images you don’t like, or from an illegal parade. Yes, protesting at private homes is detestable, but hardly a threat of serious bodily harm. Tone the rhetoric (or threats, as same could be construed) down a notch or two.
Unrelated issue – an intersting discussion of voter apathy, and whether it is rational at all for voters to spend any significant time becoming informed. Check it out, if you like. I’m less than convinced that voting can be analyzed in traditional economic “rationality” fashion, in any case, but it’s interesting. . .
http://volokh.com/posts/1179450214.shtml
How did I escape the scrutiny Republican? I am hurt by being left off your list. I was hoping that I have made some kind of impact on you. I am disappointed.
I never knew you before Mike, you sort of showed up one day and started discussing issues.
I have noticed that you have picked up some bad habits from ksfarmgrrl, CapnAmerica and ksfarmgrrl though.
Perhaps you should return to your more thoughtful posts. Different ideas are not discouraged here.
Only those who constantly avoid discussing the issues by making charged statements.
Do I respond to them? You bet…I’ll slap them down like the hypocrites they are.
GMC,
I have never read of an abortion protester being shot by a clinic worker, nor have I ever heard of any anti-choice group’s office being bombed.
Clinic workers and physicians have been murdered and grievously wounded by the anti-choice “activists.” While Ken’s comments may have been a _tiny_ bit over the top, they weren’t _that_far over the top.
Clinic workers _should_ be concerned for their safety. There’s not a good history here.
I’ll slap them down like the hypocrites they are.Posted by: Republican | May 18, 2007 at 11:12 AM
Nice. “Slapping down” people you disagree with is such a peaceful, non-violent way of having a debate.
::eyeroll::
It’s a verbal slap down Tom. The lefty Libs actually enjoy it. It’s part of their lifestyle.
hee hee hee hee hee
I guess my bad habits are so bad they are worth mentioning twice.
hehehehheheeehehehehehehheheheheh!
I was going to also agree with you Tom. All those shot or maimed by bombs probably would agree that the operation rescue type assault IS the reason why cc exists.
Exactly how many protesters have been killed by clinic workers?
Exactly how many doctors and clinic workers have been killed or injured by the christian anti-choice jihadists?
The so-called abortion bombers could hardly be classified as belonging to the Christian categories. Most all of these were psychopathic loner nut jobs who had an “Angel of death” complex and would have killed for any reason.
“The so-called abortion bombers could hardly be classified as belonging to the Christian categories.”
Big eye roll. I guess that’s why the violent protestors can be seen outside the clinics praying christian prayers and reading from the christian bible.
…and you still havent answered my questions about how many protestors were killed or injured and how many clinic workers have been killed or injured. Including doctors.
Actually, it was Tom’s question first, but I see the silence is deafening.
I appreciate your grade card Republican. I think its harsh that you listed Ksfarmgrrl twice though. She has the “convictions” that you on the right seem to adore. Republicans always say that Liberals don’t stand for anything. I think she has made it very clear how she feels about certain issues. And Capn is a good man. I don’t know him personally, but I tend to agree with what he says. His support of bringing the troops home is very dear to me. As I have family serving today. I have many bad habits and find farmie and Capn to be intelligent, articulate proud Americans that want to turn this country around and make us the model for the rest of the world. Something that your party has destroyed. 9/11 did change somethings, but not everything. We have sacrificed not only our liberties but our credibility. This is what I think Capn and farmie would like someone from your party to admit.
In fact, I’ll go so far as to say it is domestic terrorism pure and simple.
And it is tacitly sanctioned by the catholic church.
Northern Ireland anyone?
I guess that’s why the violent protestors can be seen outside the clinics praying christian prayers and reading from the christian bible.
Posted by: ksfarmgrrl | May 18, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Wow. That sounds really violent and terrorist in nature. Praying and reading.
BS. While I think their methods are self-defeating and annoying, they are a far cry from violent or domestic terrorism.
Littlejohn,
The same protesters who have been seen praying and reading outside the clinics have gone on to shoot the workers and bomb those clinics. People have died, people have been permanently disabled.
Littlejohn, I know you try to be fair, so with all due respect…
Please answer the question about the folks who have killed and injured clinic workers. Then answer the one about how many protesters have been killed and injured by clinic workers and doctors.
The comment about the prayers and bible thumpin’ didnt mean that caused them to be violent. I meant that it is evidence that they are indeed christian. And predominantly catholic.
Calling them crazed loners is just untrue. And do you really want to make the judgement, as JM does, that they are not real christians?
Like Mormons?
And the church sanctions such activities. They are complicit.
If they were reading the Koron they would definitely be terrorists. That is the only thing that keeps them safe. I always find it interesting how Christians treat one another.
It’s not interesting, it’s sad.
And even sadder the way they treat non-christians.
And should we even talk about their jihad against gays?
raptor, seriously, farmie isn’t worth responding to – at least not on an intellectual level. She may accuse others of whining, but no one, and I mean NO ONE has EVER sniveled as much as the Fisters who threw a major hissy fit and ran away – hoping the WEBlog editors would take up their demands and run the normal folks off.
When they refused to capitulate to the little crybabies – they started to slink back here – some changed nics they were so embarrassed that they failed so miserably.
So – keep that in mind when farmie starts blaming others – as she is among the biggest snivelers of them all.
Oh yeah, half of those protestors support the Army of God, or are members of…they’re the ones who advocate openly stopping abortion providers and supporters with bombs and guns. Nope, I don’t see any religiousness there…
Gosh let Terry and his dozen protestors to which 1/5th actually showed go and protest houses. They need to be arrested again. Hey, maybe they’ll actually keep them on tax evasion.
LJYou said a mouthful with…Wow. That sounds really violent and terrorist in nature. Praying and reading.Posted by: littlejohn | May 18, 2007 at 11:34 AM
Thats what the Muslims do before they attack. But the are terrorists. Would you please clarify your point?
“The same protesters who have been seen praying and reading outside the clinics have gone on to shoot the workers and bomb those clinics.”
Tom- I think you should have worded it this way, and I would have agreed:
“Those who have shot clinic workers and bombed clinics have also been seen praying and reading the bible outside those same clinics.”
To generalize those who “pray and read” with the small minority who have shot workers or bombed clinics is disingeneous. I don’t like the way the protestors operate, but the 99.9% are not killers and bombers. Those who are deserve the death penalty
Sigh, that should have said Troy Newman.
I’m tired.
Oh yeah, half of those protestors support the Army of God, or are members of…they’re the ones who advocate openly stopping abortion providers and supporters with bombs and guns. Nope, I don’t see any religiousness there…
Posted by: political_mom | May 18, 2007 at 11:45 AM
And you know this how? You know this because you know how many of them?
Tom -
That’s the kind of generalization that would be condemned were it directed against a more liberally accepted point of view. Yes, there has been violence at clinics. There has also been a history of violence at protests involving issues more liberal friendly. There’s no monopoly on stupid, or violent, on either side. But the vast majority of protesters – on both sides – are peaceful.
Assuming the protesters here are peaceful, there’s no cause for a weapon. I might add that one does not need a CC in order to use a weapon in the defense of one’s own home, thought that’s not really relevant to this point.
Precaution is always a good thing. But Ken’s post didn’t speak to impending violence, he wrote specifically of CC to “defend themselves from this arrogant intrusion going beyond the public right of way” – his words. NO dispute at the right to use force to defend against harm; but defending against “intrusion beyond the public right of way” is hardly same.
I say that because it must be pointed out again: if your weapon is raised against another, there MUST be AT THAT POINT just cause to USE deadly force; if not, you’ve committed a crime. Don’t bluff, don’t threaten. One may not have to shoot, and hopefully not. But raising a weapon without justificatin to USE force is, in this state, an aggravated assault.
So take GREAT CARE in advising persons to “have their CC weapon ready.” Being even a little too quick with the weapon can lead to serious consequences.
I’ll stand by it- wisdom says to tone down the rhetoric.
Tell me Mike…What liberties have you lost since 911?
I haven’t noticed any changes myself.
I suppose if one was paranoid enough, they might think they’ve lost liberties. Explain exactly what liberties you have lost Mike?
Lj99.9% of Muslims are peaceful. However, we attack their countries unprovoked. Please explain to me how this terrorist oranization deserves better treatment than Al Queda. They have killed innocent Americans using terrorist tactics. Why do they get a pass?
Interesting story about Laura Bush and “pin” money, $12,000 a year, from a trust fund set up by some rich dude who died in 1912.
Laura ain’t saying what hers goes for. Hillary donated all of hers to charity.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18736411/
heheheheheeheh
and the gs obsession with me continues…
RepublicanSecurity at airports(can’t even have a bottle of shampoo), illegal wiretaps etc..
Which terrorist organization? The one that “prays Christian prayers and “reads from Christian bibles”?
Where have I ever supported killing American citizens or anyone or those who do?
And I have already stated my opposition to the invasion of Iraq.
Littlejohn,
Point taken on the wording.
But I’ll disagree with you on the “small minority;” too many of the radical anti-choicers (like the ones who protest private residences) either explicitly or implicitly approve of violence against the clinic workers.
Too many of the radical anti’s have been involved in scuffles, where they’ve shoved clinic escorts or hit them with their signs. Too many of the radical anti’s have stood by in silence while the more radical among them have committed violence against the clinic workers. And if you look on the web, you’ll find a large number of websites that _praise_ the clinic shooters and bombers.
There’s a culture of violence among the most radical anti’s that stretches back over 20 years. Some of them are very dangerous, and they “mix in” with the less violent (but complacent to the violence) protesters.
Littlejohn, you are usually a fair and reasonable poster. We dont always agree, and we dont always disagree.
How can you defend these people with a straight face? Seriously?
And can you say they are not on a christian religious jihad?
And you still havent answered my questions about who kills and injures whom.
The point about “lost liberties” is not what one notices; it is what one doesn’t notice that matters.
And the stale argument, “I suppose if one was paranoid enough, they might think they’ve lost liberties,” is about as Reich-wing as it gets. Losing liberties is losing liberties any way you cut it. That is what the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights were written to prevent.
Of course, republicant would fail to recognize those two documents; they might get in the way of his thinking.
Sigh… all of that concern (justifiable, I suppose) by the liberals about the rare violence done to abortion providers.
Yet none expressed about the deadly violence done to unborn children and the consciences of their moms every day at these places.
Which terrorist organization? The one that “prays Christian prayers and “reads from Christian bibles”?
Where have I ever supported killing American citizens or anyone or those who do?Posted by: littlejohn | May 18, 2007 at 11:55 AM
LJYou are a reasonable man. I do not understand how reading from a Bible makes you not a terrorist but reading from the Koron does? Their tactics are very similar. Is it that because they read the Bible they are not terrorists?
wisdom says to tone down the rhetoric.Posted by: GMC70 | May 18, 2007 at 11:49 AM
GMC,
Point take; I agree. Like I said, I think Ken did go a little over the top. But I can understand his sentiments.
So J M, same challenge to you…what liberties have you lost?
Be specific – name them.
Outlander – while I may agree with you, that’s not the point here. No matter what you may believe on the abortion issue, there is NO justification for the use of violence. I won’t be complicit in it, and I won’t defend it.
However, I also won’t stand by and accept the broad tar brush being used here. Those who would use violence are present in nearly every contentous issue, and reflect a small minority of those who protest. And that they do so in the name of religion does not make them Christian. So, no, KFG, there is not a “christian religious jihad.” So put away the broad brush.
These are the same types of folks who become violent at nearly every type of protest. For them, the cause isn’t the reason, it’s the excuse to lash out with violence. The cause doesn’t matter; they’re in every cause, on every side of an issue. They are who they are – they’re simply violent.
Okay, let me see if I can answer your questions and be coherent about it:
Ksfarmgrrl-
Obiously, clinic workers have been injured and killed by abortion protestors. obviously, abortion protestors have blownup clinics. The opposite is not true that I know of. I do not support, or defend these people. They are far out wackos who should be isolated fromsociety by either the death penalty or lifetime prison
THey are not on a christian jihad because they are not christian, no matter how much they scream they are. Although, I would agree that they are on a jihad
I agree there are lots of websites that condone them, They are still a small majority, (I would guess less than 1%.
My defense was for those who peacefully pray and read the bible at clinic sites. I have stated Idisagree with their methodology, and much of their message. However, to lump them in with the bombers and killers is grossly disingenous.
Those who picket private residences should be arrested for disturbing the peace, at the least.
Those who hit clinic workers, who spit on clinic workers, etc. Should be arrested for assault.
I reject those who do any of these things. i think those who “stand compacently by” should reject them also. I have publicly stated this to them and their kind.
GMC / Tom
“.. hope those employees and there neighbors who are picketed / protested have CC permits to protect / defend themselves from this arrogant intrusion going beyond the public right of way..”
What I advocated for was no more than CC advocates and the 2nd amendment provide for — the right for some one to defend their family and property …. they (OR) certainly have the right to protest on the public right of way with the appropriate permits — not even slightly over the top —-…. perhaps as a deterrant to intrusion on property — all the property owners can turn on their sprinklers, and sit in their yards with big guard dogs ….
In thinking about the above — when you take the class to get a CC license, do they teach you to use warning shots? that might be against the law (firing weapons needlessly in the city?. Shoot to maim not kill? … Do they give any instruction about at what point you can pull your weapon — do you have to provide a verbal warning? Do you have to wait to be physically attacked? (Stepping on someone’s petunia’s / shrubs does not merit getting shot — but getting in one’s face and physically threatened deserves at least a warning / warning shot?
…… and why concealed carry? As a deterrent it seems to make more sense to not allow concealed carry, but to carry your weapons openly ? Seems it would help the police and deter potential criminals by knowing where the firepower is?
Maybe in this scenario — with advance warning — pepper spray / mace would be a better alternative?
I wonder where the WPD will be while this is going on?
In this case there are reasonable alternatives to pulling a gun — a high pressure garden hose, sprinklers, mace etc … as deterrents, but CC can come in handy when your family and property are threatened ………
LJYou are a reasonable man. I do not understand how reading from a Bible makes you not a terrorist but reading from the Koron does? Their tactics are very similar. Is it that because they read the Bible they are not terrorists?
Posted by: Mike | May 18, 2007 at 12:01 PM
And I have stated this where?I have no fault with Muslims.
Outlander,
Last fall, I worked with several other Wichita-area organizations and churches to sponsor a candidate forum. We invited all the candidates for area Legislative races to take questions from our members and the general public.
Guess who showed up to our forum? Two prominent Operation Rescue activists. What did they do there? They stood outside the church, taking video of the individuals going into the church, and filming the license plates of the cars parked in the parking lot.
What was their purpose in doing this? In my view, nothing but intimidation. Taking pictures of people’s license plates, while they’re engaged in peaceful political activities can have no other purpose.
Operation Rescue has made a local industry of harassing anyone and everyone they disagree with. Some of their members have physically attacked clinic workers. People have every reason to be concerned about their intentions.
“I’ll slap them down like the hypocrites they are.Posted by: Republican | May 18, 2007 at 11:12 ”
Repub, let me be the first to volunteer for that treatment. Verbally or physically.
Still waiting for proof of violence perpetrated against the protestors.
Any violence is too much and should not be tolerated in a society ruled by law.
And gmc, I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, but really. Which part isnt true? That they are christians? Or that they have a jihad or religious war going?
Sorry if you dont like it, but both counts sure appear to be true. I didnt say ALL christians were violent or jihadists. But for those who would deny women the right to control their own bodies…
…I think the term christian jihadists is accurate. Inflamatory, but accurate.
And as Mike noted, if they were reading the Koran and praying the prayers of Islam, they’d be in jail so fast it would make your head spin.
In fact, they probably wouldnt be in jail, they’d be in gitmo undergoing “alternative” interrogation. Without legal representation.
Be specific about these attacks Tom. Let’s see some hyperlinks or news stories on these attacks.
Are you confusing Protest with attacks?
Are you saying Tom that Operation Rescue doesn’t have the right to Protest?
Are you saying that Operation Rescue doesn’t have the right to free assembly and their own view points?
Just what are you saying Tom that doesn’t comply with Constitutional rights that everyone has?
Where’s the beef!
What was their purpose in doing this? In my view, nothing but intimidation. Taking pictures of people’s license plates, while they’re engaged in peaceful political activities can have no other purpose.
Posted by: Tom | May 18, 2007 at 12:10 PM
Tom, I would have to agree with that
GMC70: I didn’t say anything remotely approaching support for violence. Completely the opposite.
That being the case, please don’t use me as a prop for your sermon.
Sorry XXX, you’ll have to pay to get S&M services. I don’t know of any, maybe you can ask around.
My husband had an idea- you know those balloons you blow up that have the rubber band that you bounce the ball back and forth in your hand?
Make one with prez Bush’s face, and a thing inside that says “mission accomplished” and other Bushisms everytime the balloon bounces lol.
I think when people are being rude and noisy..like having a party on a street in the middle of the week blaring music at 2am…neighbors should get a free shot at their stereo.
People who can’t learn respect should be taught better. :D
LJ, EVERYONE in this nation should have the right to peaceful protest. If ALL they were doing was praying and reading the bible, I wouldnt say a thing.
But they actively dog workers and clients alike. They are regularly arrested. That doesnt sound like peaceful protest to me.
And, with all due respect LJ, I get tired of the arguement that “They are not christians”.
They call themselves christians. They attend christian churches. They pray christian prayers. They read from the christian bibles. They cry to Jesus to smite their enemies.
Just because you dont approve of them doesnt mean they arent christians.
Sorry, but THEY paint themselves with the “broad brush”. If you dont like that they smear the reputation of christians, I suggest you take it up with them.
’cause ya know, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck…
…it probably is a duck.
Or are you setting yourself up to be the judge of which self proclaimed christians are real and which are not?
“I think the term christian jihadists is accurate. Inflamatory, but accurate.”———–
The term ‘jihad,’ is used to describe a holy war against infidels, of which Christians are included. Therefore usage of “Christian jihadists,” is not only an oxymoron, it is inaccurate.
“Christian crusader,” would be a closer term, although that word is not a stand alone description – as is ‘jihad.’
Let’s all try to start using words in their correct context.
Okay?
Here’s a good story about a new kind of drive-in theater, happening in Orange County Cal.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-drivein18may18,0,6144301.story?coll=la-home-center
Who remembers?
Sittin in front between Mom and Dad, with baby sib lying out on the back seat. Aahh, that great front bench seat that accommodated four.
Goin to the snack bar after movie 1 (remember they used to show TWO movies?) Loadin up on popcorn, drinks, and even pizza.
Then you were old enough to drive and take a date. Learned some birds and bees. Aahh, that great front bench seat. When you had double daters, the couples had separation privacy.
You could always tell the home-run hitters when they climbed into the back seat–totally obvious when the car had only two occupants, four doors, and they opened the rear door and climbed in.
Then the life cycle was repeated. You’re parents, taking your kids to the drive-in.
Anyway, drive-in season is open. The Starlight’s showing Spiderman 3. Get out there and have sum fun.
(Caveat: the Starlight doesn’t allow pets anymore. We can understand why, but it’s sad. Dogs love drive-ins. Not that they watch movies, but they love being with their human family on weekend nights.)
I know with republican, no one should go down the example road. Prediction? Like usual, one will be too many and a hundred examples wont be enough.
But here’s just one for ya.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/gunn.htm
Here’s the Wikipedia article, with lots of footnotes at the end:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence
ksfarmgrrl-
Why pick a fight with me? I agreed those who commit violence should pay for it, including the death penalty for those who take a life? as far as the rest:
“But they actively dog workers and clients alike. They are regularly arrested. That doesnt sound like peaceful protest to me.”
Me either, I don;t disagree. I have stated such.
“And, with all due respect LJ, I get tired of the arguement that “They are not christians”.
They call themselves christians. They attend christian churches. They pray christian prayers. They read from the christian bibles. They cry to Jesus to smite their enemies.
Just because you dont approve of them doesnt mean they arent christians.
–you are correct on that point, my sayso makes no difference—
Sorry, but THEY paint themselves with the “broad brush”. If you dont like that they smear the reputation of christians, I suggest you take it up with them.”
—I have, multiple times—
’cause ya know, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck…
…it probably is a duck.
“Or are you setting yourself up to be the judge of which self proclaimed christians are real and which are not?”
What I said was, in my opinion, those who kill clinic workers and bomb clinics are not christians, at least by my definition. I don;t give a rats ass what they call themselves.
Oh yes, let’s use words in context.
“Dictionary.com Unabridged (v –noun 1. a holy war undertaken as a sacred duty by Muslims.2. any vigorous, emotional crusade for an idea or principle.
Also, jehad.
——————————————————————————–
[Origin: 1865–70; < Ar jih?d struggle, strife]Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.American Heritage Dictionary – Cite This Source ji·had also je·had (j?-häd’) Pronunciation Keyn.Islam An individual’s striving for spiritual self-perfection.Islam A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.
A crusade or struggle: “The war against smoking is turning into a jihad against people who smoke” (Fortune).
[Arabic jih?d, from jahada, to strive; see ghd in Semitic roots.]
(Download Now or Buy the Book) The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth EditionCopyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.Online Etymology Dictionary – Cite This Sourcejihad
1869, from Ar., usually translated as “holy war,” lit. “struggle, contest, effort,” from inf. of jahada “he waged war, he applied himself to.” Used for any doctrinal crusade since c.1880.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper
I love the way I say “frog” and farmie jumps into action.
It’s so fun.
Ok lj. I really am not picking a fight with you.
I’m glad that you agree that just because you dont approve of their brand of christianity, they are self professed christians.
I am glad you condem violence in the name of religion.
Thanks for clearing up your position.
You didnt say frog. You questioned my use of language. Just like you did, and were proven wrong, about the blind pig and the acorn. Just like you were about the word lezzie.
You should learn by now, but apparantly, you just love to be publicly humiliated.
You should be insanely happy by now.
I noticed by far the majority of the violence occurred in the 1990s, as with the case of the shooter that ksfarmgrrl referenced.
There is a barber in town who thinks he is Jesus Christ and even has a Website posted. Most of it addresses the issues with his ex-wife.
By the logic of the left, they would say this Barber is a Christian and therefore all Christians are bad especially if the protest at Abortion clinic.
Labeling someone a Christian, does not make them one.
Is this an example of using fallacy assignment or what?
I’m tending to agree with LJ on this matter. Just because you label someone a Christian, doesn’t mean they are one.
jihad is an arabic term.
ROFLMAO
Defensive much?
I await your definition of the word “is”.
For ROFL fun, look at Republican’s “How Antarctica is not melting away” link,http://www.terradaily.com/reports/What_Climate_Changes_Does_Antarctica_Predict_999.html
After the disclaimer near the bottom, “The opinions expressed in this article are the author’s …”
… there’s a link to their coverage of MELTING that happened in 2005,
‘NASA Finds Vast Regions of West Antarctica Melted in Recent Past’http://www.nasa.gov/vision/earth/lookingatearth/arctic-20070515.html
And oddly, humans CFC’s seem to have caused (temporary) cooling of the Antarctic.
‘Climate myths: Antarctica is getting cooler, not warmer, disproving global warming’http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11648“Confusingly, it appears that one human impact on the climate – the Antarctic ozone hole – is currently compensating for another, global warming. If the ozone layer recovers over the decades as expected, the circular winds could weaken, resulting in rapid warming.”
Republican’s other link also contradicts his point,http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Permanent_Ice_Fields_Are_Resisting_Global_Warming_999.html“However, during exceptional climatic events like the 2003 heatwave, positive temperatures caused some of the surface ice to melt.If episodes like this were to occur more often, this partial melting would no longer be negligible, and would have a significant effect on the ice mass.So there is no guarantee that “permanent” ice fields will stay that way in the future.”
“Used for any doctrinal crusade since c.1880.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2001 Douglas Harper”
More ruthless to be impeccable crap. Whatever. Spin away.
Maybe you should contact Slick Willy for that one.
lol
GS – and jihad means much the same as crusade – a christian term.
Something interesting that I learned many years ago about the term. It is actually more properly used to describe one’s personal struggle with one’s ‘inner demons’; e.g. alcoholism etc.
Similarly, Crusade has different meanings – it can be a crusade for good or it can be a violent invasion.
Like the word War – ‘war in illiteracy’ etc is very different than other uses of the word.
Sigh….fun as it is making farmie look the fool – lunch break is over.
Talk amongst yourselves until I can break free again.
ze•ro (zŽr‚÷) n., pl. -ros, -roes, v., -roed, -ro•ing, adj.— n.1. the figure or symbol 0, which in the Arabic notation for numbers stands for the absence of quantity; cipher.
The very first definition of “zero” in my Random House Unabridged attributes that word to Arabic. I guess we better stop using it.
republican, you need to back off the painkillers.
“By the logic of the left, they would say this Barber is a Christian and therefore all Christians are bad especially if the protest at Abortion clinic.”
Please post where I said “all christians are bad”. Read much?
“Labeling someone a Christian, does not make them one.”
Uh, once again, THEY SAY they are christians. Who am I to judge that they are not? I didnt label them christian. They labeled themselves that. I agreed with their own assessment.
“Is this an example of using fallacy assignment or what?
Project much? That is YOUR logical fallacy trick, not mine.
“Just because you label someone a Christian, doesn’t mean they are one.”
Sigh. It is their own profession of faith. Not my label. I guess you are more qualified to know what they are than THEY are.
Now THAT is typical republican party logic.
I just came up with an etymological replacement for “zero:”
“Republican”
So far, gs and republican are the only ones proven wrong again. But please feel free to spin…
Do you wonder why gs is especially horrible today? She’s just testy because she got caught in bigot land here.
http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/perks_for_jerks.html
0 is greater than a negative number Tom, which is what you and farmgrrl represent – the epitome of being negative.
I guess brown golf courses are what it will take for people to WAKE UP about water shortages?
And did I mention that Florida could go the route of Hays and Russell and irrigate their golf courses with treated, drinkable water? Not gray water or ground water?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070518/ap_on_re_us/farm_scene_florida_drought
Brown golf courses are better for ball roll.
Tom:
To answer your questions:
NO – I’d strongly advise NOT to fire a warning shot. IF the use of force is justified, use it, don’t bluff it. 1) you’re responsible for where that round goes, and 2) you would only fire a round if use of force is justified; if so, do so. Don’t give the bad guy a single advantage, certainly, not a warning.
Second. Shoot to maim? Only in the movies. If one shoots, one aims center body mass. The goal is to stop the aggression. Keep shooting until the aggressive act ceases. Aiming at center body mass increases the likelihood of hitting your target, and not coincidentally increases the chance of effectively stopping the aggression. However, when the aggression stops, your shooting stops. Don’t go out after him if he runs away; at that point, you are not the defender anymore.
I think I’ve already answered your question about when to draw; raise your weapon ONLY if the use of force is justified. I think you may draw, as a precaution, if things start to get ugly, but I’d keep it carefully hidden; “flashing” the weapon as a warning is dangerous and possibly illegal. It puts your opponent on guard, and gives away one of the advantages you have: surprise.
You’ve answered your own question as to when force is justified: to protect yourself or others from great bodily harm. Period. No other reason. BTW – once an aggressor enters your house or occupied vehicle (without your consent), he’s per se a threat to you. Use of force there is justified. Otherwise, there must be an imminent threat of great bodily harm to justify the use of force; one may not use force to protect property. And you do not have a duty to retreat (you never did, in Kansas, nor in most common law jurisdictions, even before “stand your ground” passed), but I’d advise that you do, if you can do so safely.
Open carry is legal on your own property, in Kansas, and is legal period in most of the State, unless there is a local ordinance against it. Don’t try to do so in Wichita, however!! I’d advise against it, because 1) as noted above, it gives away an advantage of surprise, 2) it makes you immediately a target of someone seeking to take that weapon, and makes you the first target of attack should trouble come 3) socially, you’ll get some very odd and nervous looks with the gun strapped to your leg. And you give up very little if any accessibility to the firearm by concealing, if your holster and dress is chosen carefully. I’ve carried in some very public places, and in places with lots of persons close at hand. To my knowledge, I’ve never been “made” as carrying. Just try not to put yourself in situations where you are likely to be “made,” and especially avoid situations or places which may become trouble, if possible.
Trouble may find you, however, and if so, I wish you well. Be careful, be safe. WE’re really not apart on this, aside from the baseless generalizations bandied about here.
“So J M, same challenge to you…what liberties have you lost?
Be specific – name them.”
How about the 250,000 people who had their backgrounds checked by homeland security for going the las vegas.http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:KYau-fbiovEJ:www.asu.edu/ecure/2004/sobel/sobel-final.ppt+fbi+las+vegas+visitors+background+check&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=usHow about the people put on the watch list who can no longer fly because their name is the same as some terrorist suspect. Think they like having their “liberties” taken away?
Republicant, you are a credit to the republican party, and about as stupid. Keep it up: one always needs a good laugh to start a weekend off right.
O, by the way: I suggest taking XXX up on his challange. I would pay to see that.
…and why didnt I guess that the World Bank, under wolfie’s “leadership” cast a shadow on world water issues?
“Source: Faversham House Group
Protests as water privatisation increases (17 May 2007)
The World Bank’s increasing push to privatise water resources came under the spotlight this week as activists criticised the approach as denying the poorest the right to water.
Over 134 non-governmental organisations from 48 countries urged the World Bank not to strengthen the role of a policy called the “Public-Private Infrastructure Advisory Facility” (PPIAF), as is likely to happen at a WB meeting next week.
In a letter to donors to the PPIAF programme, the organisations argue that water privatisation takes water away from the poorest instead of increasing water access.
“The evidence shows that the private sector has shown a great reluctanceto commit finance to connecting the poorest people to clean, affordablewater…. Our conclusion is that aid could be better spent and we askdonors to withdraw this funding accordingly,” they write. ”
Read more: http://www.edie.net/news/news_story.asp?id=13038&channe...
“BTW – once an aggressor enters your house or occupied vehicle (without your consent), he’s per se a threat to you. Use of force there is justified.”
You have to be careful with this statement. A burgler is not a ‘threat of great bodily harm’. Just because someone is in your house does not give you permission to use deadly force.
If you hear an intruder in your house you should retreat to a safe room and call the police. My wife and I have discussed various scenarios, just in case. If they are trying to get into your bedroom, tell them you have called the police and tell them you are armed. If they break into your bedroom then you can assume they wish to do you great bodily harm.
Hank
Oh, and since the farmgrrl brought it up, I have a goat that feints every now and then. Not a feinting goat, just one that under a lot of pressure will feint.
I have six goats that I use to train sheep dogs and one of them will feint if the dog is putting too much pressure on him. You should see the look on Samson’s little face when it happens!
Hank
Oh J M, you still haven’t stated what Liberties you have lost.
Being put on a watch list denies liberties how? And you are familiar with 100 percent of these cases by what method? The MSM is your source.
So J M, what liberties have you lost.
Not Osama Obama down the street, you…
I think Tom made this point the other day. When I think of how many guns my queer friends and I own, it is laughable when folks think we wouldnt fight back.
From another site:
You Can’t Bash An Armed Queer!”The opportunity to be threatened, humiliated and to live in fear of being beaten to death is the only ’special right’ our culture bestows on homosexuals.”- Diane Carman, Denver Post
“Thirty-one states allow all qualified citizens to carry concealed weapons. In those states, homosexuals should embark on organized efforts to become comfortable with guns, learn to use them safely and carry them. They should set up Pink Pistols task forces, sponsor shooting courses and help homosexuals get licensed to carry. And they should do it in a way that gets as much publicity as possible. “–Jonathan Rauch, Salon Magazine, March 13, 2000
We did. There are now over 35 Pink Pistols chapters nationwide, and more are starting up every day. We are dedicated to the legal, safe, and responsible use of firearms for self-defense of the sexual-minority community. We no longer believe it is the right of those who hate and fear gay, lesbian, bi, trans, or polyamorous persons to use us as targets for their rage. Self-defense is our RIGHT.
The Pink Pistols get together at least once a month at local firing ranges to practice shooting, and to acquaint people new to firearms with them. We will help you select a firearm, acquire a permit, and receive proper training in its safe and legal use for self-defense.
The more people know that members of our community may be armed, the less likely they will be to single us out for attack. Join us today. It is your RIGHT.
http://www.qrd.org/qrd/www/RRR/rrrpage.html
Heheheh Sometimes, people should be careful what they ask for… They just might get it!
Funny Hank! I’d love to see that look. I think I’ve had it on my own face once or twice.
What so special about that group owning guns farmgrrl?
Are you saying you want Queers to be treated differently now? Sounds like a bunch of citizens with a common interest in guns.
But if you want a separate society and label it as such, by all means do so.
Just don’t complain when someone calls your groups “those” people. You just labeled them as “those” people.
Actually, the look on my face the first time it happened would have made a good picture!
I must be becoming part farmer, my first thought when the goat feinted was, “I wonder if I can still eat it?”
Hank
Republican,
I’m curious. Did you not notice that the 2 links you posted (8:19, 8:21 AM) contradicted your “not melting” claim?
Or did you just hope that nobody would notice?http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_17.html#comment-70001776
Whatever republican. That post of yours doesnt even make any sense.
The POINT is in the title. “You Can’t Bash An Armed Queer!” Those who call us “wussies” with a p might want to be forwarned.
And if by separate society, you mean separate from jerks like you?
You bet. Count me in!
I read them Cosmos thoroughly. I also concluded that GW Alarmist science is not a confirmed science like it claims to be. No pun intended, but they haven’t even analyzed the tip of the iceberg and claim to know every answer to every question.
Evidently they don’t and the articles proves it.
heheheheh Hank!
If you are poor enough to wonder if you can still eat it, you do qualify as a small farmer.
I’m eating wild dock this year…
Woo Hoo!!!
Things are heating up in WaKeeney. It sure is good to have an AG who cares about corruption in government. The “inquisition” continues to expand…
http://www.hdnews.net/
…and if you read the article, you’ll see that the WaKeeney City Council members, past and present, just want the investigation swept under the rug.
heheheheh. Sounds like “move along folks, nothing to see here…”
And rumor has it the Kansas Bar Association is investigating a request for disbarment of the former city attorney. Of course he’s innocent until proven guilty.
But I hear the investigation regarding his law license is continuting.
Popping the corn…
Young lawyers out there? I think a yellow dog could beat this guy for county attorney next year.
Good way to start a career and gain a reputation for fighting corruption.
Applications available at the Trego County Clerk’s office. heheh.
Tom:
To answer your questions:
NO – I’d strongly advise NOT to fire a warning shot. IF the use of…Posted by: GMC70 | May 18, 2007 at 01:06 PM
GMC,
I’m completely lost. Are you responding to a post you think I made?
0 is greater than a negative number Tom, which is what you and farmgrrl represent – the epitome of being negative.Posted by: Republican | May 18, 2007 at 12:58 PM
“Neener neener same to you and more of it neener neener”
How very original. How very erudite.
Comments like that remind me of things my daughter used to say – waaaaay back when she was in 3rd grade.
Political business as usual (sigh)
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0507/4068.html
Littlejohn,
Neither party has a monopoly on stupid.
Someone once told me there are limits to intelligence, but none to stupidity.
LJ,Troy Newman’s ORW, the group that is protesting at clinic worker’s homes, has convicted clinic bombers on it’s payroll. Members and protesters associated with ORW have assaulted volunteer escorts numerous times. They are verbally abusive to anyone who disagrees with them, but especially so to women. I’ve been there and seen it for myself.They claim to be operating at the direction of Jesus Christ, that “man’s law” is superseded by God, and that Jesus has authorized them to use any means necessary to stop abortion. These people are just as much terrorists as any Islamicist suicide bomber.
Just because someone is in your house does not give you permission to use deadly force.Posted by: Hank Price | May 18, 2007 at 01:37 PM
Hank,
Kansas enacted a “stand your ground” law in 2006. The new law presumes that your life and safety are at risk if someone has unlawfully or forcibly entered your home. See:
http://www.kslegislature.org/bills/2006/2577.pdf
Jed-
I am not arguing with you, but I VERY MUCH would like some evidence that ORW has convicted clinic bombers on it;s payroll.
And that their organization or it’s leaders states that Jesus has authorized them to use any means necessary to stop abortion.
While I don;t know that they would still be equivalent to islamicist suicide bomber that walks into a market full of women and kids and blows themselves up with the intention of killing or maiming everyone there, I would agree that they are far nastier than society should have to endure, and will work to remove their influence with anybody i know.
Littlejohn,
Cheryl Sullenger, ORW’s official spokesperson, was convicted of a San Diego clinic bombing in the late ’80s. She did 2.5 years in prison. She now lives here in Wichita, and was one of the people filming the candidate forum I mentioned above.
GMC / Tom
I think GMC was addressing my questions regarding concealed carry —
I want to reiterate that I do not support CC as a defense for differences of opinion or idealogy — but as several have pointed out here and in the past — it can be valuable asset when protecting your property and family —
… I just wondered when that began and how were people trained to deal with it
Thanks GMC for your answer –
Tom
Do you know where the protesters will be going ?
I just talked a friend who’s husband is Marine and she doesn’t want him to bring guns home.
She’s got concerns and fears out in society but tries to stay safe enough.
Girls I’ve dated never wanted me to have hunting guns or believed they should be in our home.
Some need guns. Criminals have too many guns. The GUN LOBBY allows no background checks at gun shows and wants not record of gun sales.
Gun stores don’t stop kooks from getting weapons because they ask no questions.
No NRA supporter should ever say they represent 100 Million people and can’t get $1 from each of those voters to make $100 Million dollars!
I don’t know the exact numbers but the Conceal Carry law has only gotten a couple of thousand signed up. Kansans aren’t rushing to get the licenses.
I again ask is state of Virginia crazy. They allow holstered weapons without a license. Loaded holstered guns.
I wonder if two holster on the street there. Double side holsters. Double arm pit holsters. Backward so the handle comes out first.
Holster to carry a shotgun over the shoulder.
No license required. No training required. Just the holster.
Too many guns for everyone to grab and use in the wrong way.
Hank
Thanks for the clarification !
LJ,Cheryl Sullenger, and I’m not sure which post she currently holds in ORW, was convicted and served time for a botched clinic bombing in California.Troy Newman told me personally about God’s authorization.
Ken,
This is from Operation Rescue’s press release they sent out yesterday:
“Organized prayer times will be at 8 am, noon, and 5 pm daily. The group plans a prayer walk in the neighborhoods of Tiller clinic workers on Saturday morning. The vigil is scheduled to conclude on Sunday at 5 pm.”
As to which specific homes they’re going to protest, I don’t know, but I can speculate. Not that I’d post that speculation here ;)
Jed,
Sullenger is ORW’s main media contact now, especially for print and radio. Troy usually does the on-camera stuff.
So what’s wrong with a prayer walk or praying in front of someone’s house on public property?
It’s called free speech, just exactly what the 1st Amendment contemplated.
As opposed to made up free speech rights such as pornography.
Thank you both and I will get to the bottom of this, and will disseminate it as soon as possible to everyone i know. So far, I have only found comments by others as to her conviction. I am sure it is probably true, but I am looking for an original source to document.I would also hope that ANY organization that has convicted bombers/killers and those who support such actions as staff would remove them immediaely.Like I say, I will spread the word immediately. I am sure it will remove some support they may have.
Outlander–While it may be legal, it doesn’t make it right.
Outlander,
It’s nothing but harassment and intimidation. It was wrong when Sunflower Community Action did it at George Kolb’s house, and it’s wrong that Operation Rescue is doing it to people who work in a lawful business performing lawful services in a lawful way.
Tell me you, and every member of your family, would NOT feel intimidated if the people who had bombing convictions showed up at your house to photograph you, your family members, your cars, your home, etc. Then tell me you wouldn’t be intimidated when those pictures showed up on websites advocating your murder.
Trying to compare the murderous violence of the anti-choice protesters to pictures of naked people is ludicrous.
Tom
Can you email me your speculations? I’ll understand no — but I think it would be interesting to see —– just as watching the music video downtown yesterday was interesting to watch ..
Republican,
“I also concluded that GW Alarmist science is not a confirmed science like it claims to be.”
You should spread your proof. Peiser admitted his study was wrong, etc..
‘Climate myths: Many leading scientists question climate change’http://environment.newscientist.com/channel/earth/climate-change/dn11654
Republican: “they haven’t even analyzed the tip of the iceberg and claim to know every answer to every question.”
Thank you for again proving that you do not comprehend my posts.
Scientists were wrong about Arctic ice melting and SH ocean CO2 uptake, don’t know what the ice sheets are doing, or phytoplankton’s positive feedback.http://blogs.kansas.com/weblog/2007/05/open_thread_16.html#comment-69818898
Republican fails to understand the basic, obvious problems.
Natural positive feedbacks are VERY difficult to quantify and predict. And by the time they happen, it’s too late to stop them.
If scientists knew “every answer to every question” as Republican falsely claims, Earth would have a “guaranteed” future climate change.
Humans could then just plan to adapt to those predicted changes.
But scientists can’t and don’t know everything.
And Earth’s climate is much too important to just “wait and see” how much damage human-added GHG’s will cause.
Maybe some attorney can set me straight on this, but I was under the impression that RICO laws applies to threats made towards property or individuals of Abortion Clinics.
This includes conspiracy or intent to commit.
I read that somewhere, but maybe I’m confusing it with something else.
Never said earth’s climate wasn’t important Cosmos.
I’d rather do it according to U.S. Laws than the very flawed Kyoto treaty.
Hank -
“BTW – once an aggressor enters your house or occupied vehicle (without your consent), he’s per se a threat to you. Use of force there is justified.”
As of last year, this is in fact law. K.S.A. 21-3212. This is the “castle doctrine” that got so much attention. It essentially removes the objective element, and defines as a matter of law, that a person illegally in your house – as an aggressor – is a threat to you. There need only be a “reasonable belief” subjectively.
This has not been tested, however, and I’d not want to be a test case, so going slow is always wise.
“It’s called free speech, just exactly what the 1st Amendment contemplated.
“As opposed to made up free speech rights such as pornography.”
Please tell us what brand of time machine you use to get back to the 1790’s to gather all this first hand evidence.
Us barking moonbats want to know. We are on the edge of our respective seats, in fact.
KFG -
As to the Pink Pistols chapter: Good for you!!!
Sorry Tom, that was ken. My mistake.
GMC,
No problem.
Thanks for the link Tom! Thanks for the clarification GMC70!
I have a copy of that statute from my CCH class, but that’s not how I remember it being taught. The instructor said the smart thing to do was to retreat to your bedroom (safe room) and call the police. If you go looking for the intruder, there may be more than one and you could be biting off more than you can chew!
However, somebody trying to carjack you is a different scenario.
Hank
Farmgrrl,
As far as I know, we don’t have a Pink Pistol’s chapter in Kansas. I’m on their national mailing list, and keep my eye open for posters from Kansas. Do you know of something I don’t?
Hey ken,
According to GMC70 and Tom, I was basically full of crap. However, I don’t think I would kill someone for breaking into my house. I would have to fear for my life or my wife’s life.
If you tried to hurt one of my dogs I would have no problem just kicking your ass though!
Hank
Hank -
I’d agree that retreating is generally a smart thing to do, though I’m not sure that once he’s in my house, I’m retreating any further. I don’t want to get trapped in that “safe room.”
There’s a difference, I guess, in what the law requires and what is “smart.” As is often the case. I just pray I don’t ever have to actually use that statute.
In any case, be safe. And be smart.
Texas and vermont probalbly have the best gun laws.
My medieval Mace and Battle axe would really mess someone up if they invaded my home.
“So J M, what liberties have you lost.”
I could get recorded interviews from people who have been browbeaten by the HS goon squads. I could post link after link about how bush and his cronies have bashed the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights. But it would be in vain attempting to educate uber Reich-wing republicant on what constitutes liberties.
His mind, what little there is of it, can’t comprehend the difference between a true American, and some nazi Reich-wing storm trooper.
Sorry, bozo, I ain’t playing your mindless game.
Hey GMC70,
Well, first of all, I relly don’t wnat to kill anybody. My wife and I have several scenarios. If we are together we retreat, call police. If we are separated, I’ll find my wife and I’ll be armed.
Don’t want to go into all of it here, but I don’t think I’d be ‘trapped’ in my bedroom!
Hank
If someone invades my home they die. Last thing I need is some douche bag crack head thief suing me cause he got his nose broke. The dead don’t talk.
Let me write this again J M with much white space included so you can comprehend it.
J M
What
Liberties
have
YOU (not anyone else)
LOST?
Tom Paine;
While I understand and personally sympathize withyour statement, I’d strongly advise you keep such sentiments to yourself. Should, God forbid, such a scenario happen, such statements could come back to haunt you and be used against you to show you had a prior intent to kill, and you were not acting “reasonably” in self-defense.
Take care the words we use; they can bite us in the &$#.
Republican, it is not what liberties that we as individuals have lost, it is the threat to liberty that we as a nation are experiencing.
Jose Padilla was an AMERICAN citizen that was denied due process. Regardless of what he did or did not do, every citizen is guaranteed due process by the Constitution. When Jose Padilla was denied his rights, we all lost.
“Everyone” knew that OJ Simpson was guilty. Should he have been denied a trial? “Everyone” knew that the Carr Brothers were guilty. Should they have gone directly to the gurney?
When we start down that slippery slope of denying Constitutional rights in the name of fighting terrorism, then the terrorists have already won.
Good for me that I use a founding Father as a pseudonym
Republican,
“Never said earth’s climate wasn’t important Cosmos.I’d rather do it according to U.S. Laws than the very flawed Kyoto treaty.”
Looks like Republican also does not comprehend what HE posts.
He posted: “I also concluded that GW Alarmist science is not a confirmed science like it claims to be.”
Peer-reviewed climate “science”, and the “Kyoto Treaty” are two separate issues.
But Republican is saying that all of the science done since 1824 is not what “it claims to be” –
http://www.aip.org/history/climate/timeline.htm
– because a few years ago, most of the world decided that the peer-reviewed climate scientists were correct, and action was needed. Very ironic…
U.S. cities and states are even taking steps to reduce GHG’s, since the federal govt has failed to do so.
WSClark,
Evidently you support thugs like Abdullah al-Muhajir. That’s his real name now, not Padilla. Would you call Mohamed Ali Cassius Clay?
On April 3, 2006, the U.S. Supreme Court declined, with three justices dissenting from denial of certiorari, to hear Padilla’s appeal from the 4th Circuit Court’s decision that the President had the power to designate him and detain him as an “enemy combatant” without charges and with disregard to habeas corpus.
Also known as Abdullah al-Muhajir, he joined the Maniac Latin Disciples street gang and was arrested several times. During his gang years, he maintained several aliases, such as José Rivera, José Alicea, José Hernandez, and José Ortiz. As a small-time criminal he was convicted of aggravated assault as a juvenile when a gang member he kicked in the head died.
Abdullah al-Muhajir traveled to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq.
No doubt Abdullah al-Muhajir is a hero to the Liberal Left such as yourself WSClark. You keep hoisting him up to an exalted position of someone who has lost liberties.
Evidently, Abdullah al-Muhajir chose to lose his liberties when he took Al Qaeda training and returned to the U.S. as an enemy combatant.
You really know how to choose them WSClark.
Get a grip on yourself Cosmos. Like Fleettwood says, “you sound like a broke record.”
Just Say NO To Parole for Michael Soles! I cannot even believe this man is up for parole and the families and the city he terrorized have to relive that whole thing. I was a high school kid at East back then and I remember vividly the day he killed and shot all those folks in downtown Wichita. My aunt and grandmother both worked downtown and knew one of the victims Soles killed. This man should NEVER EVER see a free day again!
Typical Republican tactic… cannot defend his opinion and lack of comprehension, so resorts to personal attacks instead.
In fact, I will be happy to give Michael Soles parole when the 6 people he killed say it is OK with them!
“No doubt Abdullah al-Muhajir is a hero to the Liberal Left such as yourself WSClark.”
That is amazing stupid, even for you Republican.
For one, I never defended Jose Padilla in any manner. Secondly, this is the first time I have mentioned him, so I hardly “keep hoisting him up.”
Third, we gave a fair trial to Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, two Americans that ACTUALLY did commit a terrorist act on American soil.
Why is Padilla any different than McVeigh and Nichols? For that matter, we also gave Eric Rudolph and Paul Hill fair trials. Are they any better than Padilla?
When one man can circumvent the Constitution by merely declaring ANYONE, including American citizens, as an enemy combatant, we all have lost.
You are a true idiot, Republican. You see everything as an opportunity to slam Democrats and progressives without considering the debate.
When Barack Obama is President, will you still feel so comfortable with having the power to circumvent the Constitution vested in the hands of one man?
How about Hillary Clinton? Still feel comfortable with that possibility?
The fact that Padilla was aligned with a terrorist organization does not mean that we need to throw the Constitution out the window. McVeigh, Nichols, Rudolph and Hill all committed violent actions against American citizens and the American government.
As usual, Republican, you have made a fool of yourself.
I will give you this, you do a good job of it. Of course, you get a lot of practice.
By the way, Republican, when you copy and paste from Wiki, you should really make note of the source.
republicant is so brainwashed by his own brand of infantile garbage, that trying to carry on any kind of intelligent discourse with him is like talking to a wall. The one difference is the wall is smarter.
One of the really good things Bill Clinton did was to fund 100,000 new police officers. I truly think that this had alot to do with the drastic falls in crime rates we had during the 90’s. Of course Bush scrapped that program and now crime is going back up. When it comes to fighting crime, the biggest bang for the buck is spent on the police. The fact is that most criminals do not think much about. There are 2 things that deter criminals. They are:1. Certainty of Capture2. Certainty of PunishmentThe biggest factor of these is the CAPTURE factor. Most criminals do not think about the punishment until after they are caught. Most of them think they will not be caught and if they think they will be caught, they will not commit the crime. More police raises the capture factor and discourages crime. The next President needs to bring this program back and permanently fund it.
If you are interested in a much better understanding of the Padilla case, here is a good link.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-padilla13may13,1,7779537.story?coll=la-headlines-nation
One thing to keep in mind is that the original “charges” against Padilla have all been dropped.
Insisting on appropriate rights for criminal defendants does not mean that I am “supporting” them in any way.
I believe that the Carr Brothers deserved a fair trial – that does not mean that I support the rape and murder of innocent people.
Only a completely moron would think that I am “supporting” the Carr Brothers. I only support their Constitutional rights.
So WSClark, I didn’t call you any names…so who is resorting to personal attacks?
And the process of the court system is still work for Abdullah al-Muhajir and his Constitutional rights.
You better tell those folks down in Miami that are restricting his freedoms? The court system down in Miami where he is on trial think they are doing it by the book.
You and J M are the one that brought up that Liberties are being lost?
So WSClark, what liberties are being lost?
Abdullah al-Muhajir has gone all the way to the Supreme Court and has an attorney; Abdullah al-Muhajir declined a Sanity hearing; testimony is being given in a trial in Miami.
Again, what liberties are being lost?
WSClark and J M can’t answer because the answer is no liberties have been lost.
AND, they will never admit they are wrong. :D
ROFL LMAO at J M and WSClark.
Even someone as thick as you can see that Jose Padilla was denied due process for 3 1/2 years. If that does not concern you, then you have no business calling yourself an American.
If Padilla’s rights can be violated, who is to say that YOU could not be next on the list?
And, of course, you ignored the fact that Padilla has not been charged with the crimes that he was originally arrested for – so he was incarcerated for 3 1/2 years without charge.
Americans rightfully protest foreign governments like Cuba, Iran and China when they hold their citizens without charge and without access to lawyers and due process.
What makes it acceptable when we do it?
We are supposed to be the good guys – we are supposed to hold the moral high ground – but we lose that when we torture and deny rights to anyone, even suspected terrorists.
And that effects all of us.
And, by the way, Republican, I have a long way to go before I catch up with all the names you have called me.
Yeah Okay WSClark, due process, LMAO!
You and your buddy terrorist can commiserate together. He is your buddy after all as you support the “rights” of a confirmed terrorist.
Yeah, let’s everyone take the “high ground” for those who want to kill us.
Good plan WSClark! Keep up the good work!
Like I said, WSClark and J M will never admit to what liberties “THEY” lost and that they are wrong on the matter.
He’s just too stubborn, just like Abdullah al-Muhajir, his buddy.
Padilla? If our laws state that it IS legal NOT to afford rights to a suspected terrorist – then there is nothing unconstitutional about it.
If they are declared an ‘enemy combatant’ that’s it – no more American protections. Is that the best thing? I dunno.
I hope this conversation doesn’t sink into the “Free Leonard Peltier” area. I would really have to barf then.
At some point – we MUST put country above the individual.
That’s a fine line, to be sure, but we can’t allow terrorists to breed in our midst while affording them the same rights we afford our innocent citizens.
I understand the feeling that the innocent could get caught up in this – but there comes a time when we insist on having SO MANY RIGHTS, that we undermine our freedom.
Hell, I don’t mind one bit calling republipuke anything I want. After all, he has had so many names on this blog, it would take an entire thread to list them all.
Me? At least when I use another name, I out myself. because it’s all done in jest anyway (when I use another name, Like: MOTHER, Brer Tarbaby, et all.
Reich-wing repuke can’t stand it that his writing style is so distinct (read boring), he can’t get away from it. Face it: your stuck in your own inadequate personality flaws, dude.
You sure your “physical” problem isn’t really mental, which, of course, it must be if you still can’t understand what the word, “liberty” means. (with deep apologies to the really mentally challanged).
For example; who said, “”Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens.”? What’s wrong with that statement, and why?
Hell, I don’t mind one bit calling republipuke anything I want. After all, he has had so many names on this blog, it would take an entire thread to list them all.
Me? At least when I use another name, I out myself. because it’s all done in jest anyway (when I use another name, Like: MOTHER, Brer Tarbaby, et all.
Reich-wing repuke can’t stand it that his writing style is so distinct (read boring), he can’t get away from it. Face it: your stuck in your own inadequate personality flaws, dude.
You sure your “physical” problem isn’t really mental, which, of course, it must be if you still can’t understand what the word, “liberty” means. (with deep apologies to the really mentally challenged).
For example; who said, “”Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens.”? What’s wrong with that statement, and why?
Damn, had to double post cause I write so well.
“You and your buddy terrorist can commiserate together. He is your buddy after all as you support the “rights” of a confirmed terrorist.”
How childish, Republican. You and your kind would turn the United States into a Cuba, Iran or China.
That is great company to be in.
He is not a “confirmed” terrorist, anymore than OJ Simpson was a “known” murderer.
Now Padilla has his day in court, just like McVeigh, Nichols, Rudolph and Hill.
That is the way it should be.
Anything else is UNAMERICAN.
And GSheridan – Padilla is an American citizen – just like the others noted.
“For example; who said, “”Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens.”? What’s wrong with that statement, and why?”———–
I know! I know!
…waving hand wildly….call on me!
The statement is grammatically incorrect because the punctuation, in this case the question mark, should have been INSIDE the last quotation mark, and there should have been NO period preceding it.
There.
What have I won?
gs, would you feel the same way if you were one of those innocents caught up in the mix? Suppose you were marked as a terrorist, convicted and sent into some hell hole not populated by Paris, but a bunch of “lezbos”? Aw, hell, you’d probably enjoy it.
Don’t laugh, o holy one, it could happen with the political climate you Reich-wing morons are trying to implement.
WS – Padilla may be a citizen, but when he was declared an ‘enemy combatant’ he lost the rights afforded other citizens.
It’s all legal.
Actually, I think he may have been denationalized, too, but don’t quote me on that.
O, my, I pulled a repuke and got the punctuation wrong. You win a new bush doll. It’s in the mail. Try this, lit major:
“Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens.”
Who said it, and what’s wrong with the statement?
Got it?
“Suppose you were marked as a terrorist, convicted and sent into some hell hole not populated by Paris, but a bunch of “lezbos”? Aw, hell, you’d probably enjoy it.”——–
Hmmmmm…I wouldn’t enjoy it if farmie was there. She scares the crap outta me. I’d always be afraid she’d be lurking around the corner waiting to catch me and sit on me. Jeezus – she’s squish me flat.
Now you really got me scared.
Publican,GS,So all anyone has to do is yell terrorist, and you’ll immediately roll over and surrender the Constitution? Some American Patriots you are!You say that if you give up your rights, you’ll be free? Now that’s quite a leap of logic, clear into the oxymoronic! Your doublethink’s got it’s gears locked.
Okay, okay – I get it now.
I googled it. Tom Ridge.
But I give up on why it’s wrong.
Enlighten us.
“So all anyone has to do is yell terrorist, and you’ll immediately roll over and surrender the Constitution? Some American Patriots you are!”———-
Jed, who’s surrendering anything?
Is, or isn’t it legal to have the President declare a person an enemy combatant?
And WHO voted for the Act that allows that?
“WS – Padilla may be a citizen, but when he was declared an ‘enemy combatant’ he lost the rights afforded other citizens.”
What would keep George W Bush from declaring Barack Obama an “enemy combatant?”
Nothing.
What would keep George W Bush from declaring Patrick Fitzgerald an “enemy combatant?”
Nothing.
Our Republic is based on a system of checks and balances – three equal branches of the government.
When one individual can make unilateral decisions to deprive citizens of their Constitutional rights, the system of checks and balances is gone.
By the way, Jose Padilla is still an American citizen. If he is guilty of conspiracy, etc, convict him and lock him away, just like Hill, Rudolph, McVeigh and Nichols.
There is no need to lock him away without charges. At best, the son-of-a-bitch is a wannabe anyway.
Are you SURE he is still a citizen? Are you sure he was not denationalized?
What is the process by which the President is approached and asked to declare a person as an enemy combatant?
“But I give up on why it’s wrong.
Enlighten us.”
If you can’t or don’t understand what’s wrong with the statement, there is no way you ever will. Suffice it to say, the government does not “offer” its citizens liberty. That’s what our forefathers fought and died for.
But you’re willing to give it away for no other reason that you think “liberty” goes too far, regardless of what the United States Constitution and the Bill of Rights say. Typical Reich-wing logic.
Well, dang, no one seems to want to talk with me.
Guess I’ll go out in the garden and eat some worms, or make lemonade and sit up on the deck.
Later gators.
“If you can’t or don’t understand what’s wrong with the statement, there is no way you ever will. Suffice it to say, the government does not “offer” its citizens liberty. That’s what our forefathers fought and died for.”————–
Sheesh – loaded question. But follow your lead….of course our forefathers fought and died for it – then it was implemented by the new government and offered, by Constitution, to their descendants.
Oops, that’s US.
I guess they DID offer it to us.
I’m liking it.
Do you like it, too?
Hey, JM – did our forefathers fight and die for it for black people too?
“What is the process by which the President is approached and asked to declare a person as an enemy combatant?”
The President can declare anyone an enemy combatant, if he so chooses. There is no formal process for making that determination. There is no burden of proof, no court hearing, no flip of he coin.
Should he be so inclined, he could declare Laura an enemy combatant and there is nothing anyone could do about it.
As for Padilla’s citizenship – everything I have read refers to him as a US citizen. I have not seen anything to indicate that he is no longer a citizen.
I would go for the lemonade – Jack-style. Stay away from the worms, you might need them for fishing.
The US Patriot Act only allows for the detainment of NON-citizen, not Americans.
This link is from the Cato Institute – hardly a left wing group – in fact one of the more right wing think tanks.
http://www.cato.org/dailys/08-21-03.html
“Padilla may deserve the treatment he is receiving — perhaps worse. That is not the point. When Americans are taken into custody, they have the right to retain an attorney. Congress must first set the rules. Then an impartial judge, not the president, should make the ultimate decision as to whether the arrest and imprisonment comport with the Constitution”
Perhaps Republican will now accuse the Cato Institute of supporting terrorists.
Cato is libertarian, which is far different from right-wing. You may want to consult its position on spending, the war in Iraq, the war on drugs, and marriage amendments and then decide.
So J M and WSClark, after all of this, you both have avoided the initial question.
What liberties have you lost?
J M was the one who brought it up and now can’t back it up.
I have yet to hear of the Cato Institute being called anything other than conservative, but for the sake of debate, I will concede the point. You would hardly expect the Cato group to support a terrorist.
They are certainly more closely aligned with Bush than they are with the Democrats.
(((hears crickets chirping)))
“What liberties have you lost?”
Are you a complete idiot, Republican?
I have thoroughly documented the liberties that we as a country have lost and how that affected each and every one of us, and you STILL claim that I have not provided proof?
What do you want – Polaroid shots?
Christ. If you want to play the game, at least learn the rules before you start.
Apparently, Republican, you feel that if we PERSONALLY have not been affected, then no liberties have been lost.
I am not gay (your accusations to the contrary) but I support gay rights.
I am not a woman, but I support women’s rights, including the right to choose.
I am not disabled, but I support the Americans with Disabilities Act.
The list goes on.
What is your point – I should only be concerned with the rights of others if it affects me?
Christ.
No WSClark, the only thing you documented was a single case of an Al Qaeda member who happens to be an American. AND…that person is getting full and fair treatment as provided by our laws. His case even went to the Supreme court WAY AHEAD of many convicted felons waiting for their day in the Supreme Court.
Other than your double lip lock fantasy with Abdullah al-Muhajir, WSClark…
What else you got?
Are you saying you are an Al Qaeda member and worried about your Liberties being affected?
Just exactly what are you saying WSClark?
What liberties have you lost WSClark.
And not to leave him out – What liberties have you lost J M?
Hmmmmm???????????????????????
Again, Republican, you are being childish and willfully ignorant.
What point is there in debating any topics with you if you are going to choose this avenue of juvenile commentary and ignoring evidence?
“Other than your double lip lock fantasy with Abdullah al-Muhajir, WSClark…”
I have suggested that Mr. Padilla should have been charged with a crime 3 1/2 years ago and given a fair trial. How you turned that into such an infantile statement is beyond me.
By the way, Republican, why hasn’t Padilla been charged with the crimes that he was originally arrested for?
And which country should the US model our judicial system after, Iran, Cuba or China?
Christ, what an idiot you are, Republican.
I thought Democrats love Cuba and Castro. It was portrayed as the model for US to follow.
The anti-American Micheal Moore is going to showcase that in his new propaganda film, which the left will adore.
So which liberties have you lost WSClark?
You are still avoiding the question.
We’re not talking about an Al Qaeda terrorist not WSClark…we are talking about you.
Explain which liberties you have lost.
BTW, Abdullah al-Muhajir freely admitted he was a member of Al Qaeda.
I actually agree with WSClark on this one. Padilla shouldn’t have been an enemy combatant (actually I despise the use of this tactic). He should have been charged int he regular fashion as any other criminal.
And Gitmo prisoners should be treated under the Geneva Conventions. They are Prisoners of War. There is no such thing as the enemy combatant. That is a gross loophole.
While I support the Gitmo facility and holding prisoners there, they should be afforded the rights under the Geneva Conventions.
“I thought Democrats love Cuba and Castro.”
As usual, you are wrong Joe.
As for you, Republican, I have already documented my view on the rights of others. Contrary to your childish statement, I have never said that I have personally lost liberties, but that does not lessen my concern for the liberties of others.
If you think that I have made a statement to the effect that I have lost liberties, please copy and paste it for us.
In fact, I would encourage you to spend the next several weeks looking for such a statement. Go ahead, we won’t miss you.
This is the United States – we are supposed to be better than Iran, Cuba and China – not sink to their levels.
My statement was to be – As usual, you are wrong ABOUT DEMOCRATS, Joe.
My apologies for leaving out the qualifier.
How is that?
Can you explain the love affair the many Democrats have for Castro?
“Can you explain the love affair the many Democrats have for Castro?”
First show me a Democrat that has a love affair with Castro. I know this Democrat has no love for communism or Castro.
Me neither.
It is interesting though how a country with such a low standard of living–in part because of our unrelenting and idiotic embargo–can have such good medical care and basic support systems for its people.
Shows what we could do if we had the leadership to stop pouring money down the rat hole of the war machine and into making people’s lives better.
The dirty secret is that it doesn’t have good health care.
It’s a myth!
Castro himself imported his doctors and surgeons from Europe to operate on him. Why?
So WSClark, you went through all of these hoops to explain how someone else, who is a sworn Al Qaeda member to explain about Liberties you never lost.
The initial question was to J M on what liberties he had lost as an American Citizen. Not someone who discarded their Allegiance to the United States and swore allegiance to to Al Qaeda.
And both you and J M have never answered the initial question out right.
What Liberties have you lost?
I read this mantra all over the Web by the Lefty Liberals and they always bring up the Al Qaeda member who has sworn their allegiance to Al Qaeda, not to the U.S.
Then they claim their Liberties have been lost.
When asked about what Liberties they have lost, they go back to the same tired old excuse you give WSClark.
That is, someone who basically has denounced the U.S. and declared them their enemy by joining Al Qaeda.
Go ahead and defend that if you wish WSClark.
I don’t feel that I have lost a speck of Liberty.
Only those who identify and commiserate with Terrorists feel they have lost their Liberties.
Perhaps Fleettwood was more acutely exact in his identity and labeling of you WSClark. :)
But, Joe, about those Democrats that are having a love affair with Castro………
There aren’t any, Mr. Williams.
Castro is as vilified by the Democrats for his totalitarian government as he is by the Republicans. If there is any different in approach to Cuba at all, it is that some Democrats, this one included, believe that we should lift sanctions against Cuba and treat them just as we do China and Viet Nam.
Most of our allies, including England, have had open relations with Cuba for decades. The only thing we are doing with the sanctions is hurting the common person in Cuba.
“Only those who identify and commiserate with Terrorists feel they have lost their Liberties.”
There is no point in discussing this topic with you, Republican, you are childish and willfully ignorant.
And just for the record, I never stated that I personally have lost liberties.
Grow up, Republican, start acting your age and not like a twelve year old school girl.
“And just for the record, I never stated that I personally have lost liberties.” Posted by: WSClark | May 18, 2007 at 10:53 PM
Aha! Success! That’s all you had to write in the first place WSClark. It took major teeth pulling to get that out of you!
Now for J M. Will he comply or be assimilated by the Borg Left?
“It took major teeth pulling to get that out of you!”
What a moron you are, Republican.
My entire debate was that it DID NOT HAVE TO AFFECT ME DIRECTLY to be a concern. I made a statement to that effect HOURS ago.
Christ.
You seriously need to grow up, Republican. You are embarrassing. You have been hanging with Fleettwood way too long.
I have actually been able to discuss the topic with GSheridan today without insult on either side. It was actually enjoyable.
With you, it is just rolling my eyes at your ridiculous statements and unfounded accusations.
You are to logic, Republican, what Ted Bundy was to young women.
Republican doesn’t seem to recognize rules, facts, common sense, or logic.
Think carefully about this.
Republican seems to believe that all of todays peer-reviewed climate science is wrong, because he hates the U.N., and the market-based carbon cap-and-trade system in the Kyoto Treaty.
He seems to believe that what almost 600 U.S.A scientists wrote in a report this year is wrong, because he hates the U.N., and the Kyoto Treaty.
He seems to believe that the science done in the 1950’s by Gilbert Plass, Roger Revelle, and others is wrong, because he hates the U.N., and the Kyoto Treaty.
He seems to believe that the science done in the 1800’s by Joseph Fourier, John Tyndall, and Svante Arrhenius is wrong, because he hates the U.N., and the Kyoto Treaty.
And Republican very falsely claims that climate scientists “know every answer to every question”.
The scientists are actually warning us that they do NOT know what will happen in the future.
Ironically, the U.N. group that Republican hates is watering-down the warnings from the scientists.
“Republican, it is not what liberties that we as individuals have lost, it is the threat to liberty that we as a nation are experiencing.”
Posted by: WSClark | May 18, 2007 at 05:06 PM
I guess that was too tough for Ted Republican to understand.
“then it was implemented by the new government and offered, by Constitution, to their descendants.”
Uhh . . . no, gs, that is not correct. The constitution was written by the people for the people, which is what our government stands for, except under the (gag) leadership of bush.. The government is just the elected representatives of the people. But I guess, with your willingness to overlook that, you really can’t understand it.
“Hey, JM – did our forefathers fight and die for it for black people too?”
WTF is that? Pull that one out of your backside, did you? Damn, you are as moronic as republipuke.
Okay WSClark, I guess I have to learn your doublespeak…
“Republican, it is not what liberties that we as individuals have lost, it is the threat to liberty that we as a nation are experiencing.”
WSClark, it is not what question you avoid answering directly, it is the threat to long-winded posts that we on WE Blog are long enduring.”
Cosmos will soon find his house of glass encasing Global Warming Alarmism will not withstand the test of time.
No republipuke, I will not answer your question: it is nothing more than a red herring.
I believe I stated about the same thing as ws. For you to understand that would require some degree of intelligence. As it stands now, yours is called into question, as there seems to be none there. Kinda like this administration. But you keep trying to spin your web of bs. Your spider has no fangs, and certainly no poison.
Looks like Republican disagrees with this short-winded quote/concept.
http://www.ushistory.org/franklin/quotable/quote04.htmIn 1755 (Pennsylvania Assembly: Reply to the Governor, Tue, Nov 11, 1755), Franklin wrote:
“Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.”
So J M Walker you can state that you have lost liberties open and freely I might add.
But you can refuse to answer what liberties you have lost exactly.
I see…
Well that explains a lot about you J M.
Enjoy your delusions; guess you should have laid off those LSD trips in ‘nam.
I guess my statement was a bit too well written and articulate for you to understand, Republican. In the future, if I am addressing you directly, I will have my seven year old granddaughter proof read my posts to make sure that the vocabulary isn’t over your head.
My bad, Ted.
Franklin eh? Well you might enjoy this quote from Frnaklin:
“He that would live in peace & at ease, Must not speak all he knows, nor judge all he sees.”
Republican,
“Cosmos will soon find his house of glass encasing Global Warming Alarmism will not withstand the test of time.”
Your false claim that climate “science is not a confirmed science” does NOT even withstand the test of the present. Or the test of the last few decades.
All you have on your side is totally discredited junk science, hate for the U.N., and irrational logic(sic).And completely bogus personal attacks.
“He that scatters Thorns, let him not go barefoot.”
Godd advice for you, Republican.
I’m Ted Bundy now WSClark? Oh Goody, where does your daughter live, maybe I can invite her on a drive through some woods.
“You are to logic, Republican, what Ted Bundy was to young women.”
Perhaps you failed to catch the reference, Repub.
But this…….
“Oh Goody, where does your daughter live, maybe I can invite her on a drive…”
Sick, as usual, but I think that her husband would convince you to take a long walk in the other direction – a real long walk.
oh! you son-in-law would deny me my due process and liberties!
What kind of family do you have there WSClark?
I’m mean they are not the bloviating gas bag that you ware obvious as you demonstrated in a short sentence.
But gee whiz, they would deny me my day in court and the ability to do cruel things like Abdullah al-Muhajir wanted to do? I mean don’t potential serial killers and mass murdering terrorist get to exercise their rights without being threatened by your son-in-law.
Why would he oppress my liberties like that? Who he have me thrown in jail without due process?
Have you overdosed on your meds, Republican? Seriously. Read your last post and think about it.
I am serious.
You need some serious help, sir. Really. Are you having a stroke or something similar? Is there anyone there to help you out? Do you have a phone that you can use to call 911?
I am serious.
You have been getting less lucid and more irrational as the evening has passed.
I am serious.
Make the call before it is too late, sir.
There is something obviously wrong with you. Read through your last post and think about it. Something is not right.
Republican,
“Well you might enjoy this quote from Frnaklin:
“He that would live in peace & at ease, Must not speak all he knows, nor judge all he sees.”—
Ironically, Republican “judges” that ALL of the peer-reviewed climate scientists are wrong, because he hates the U.N., and the Kyoto Treaty.
Ben Franklin was interested in science, and knowledge.I wonder what he would say about ‘Republican’?
Franklin would say, “I really enjoy being around Republican as he utilizes actual experimentation to make scientific claims. Those God belittling British Loyalists like Cosmos appear to have accepted the word of the Crown without once realizing the inappropriate deeds of their despicable actions.”
Oh I’m just fine WSClark, just playing the “Ted Bundy” role you assigned to me.
Rather fun don’t you think.
Now about your daughter…
Ted Bundy was a college educated individual, that was quite articulate and was granted the right to serve as his own attorney.
As for my daughter – way over your head intellectually – and she is just as much the liberal as I am.
And she could probably kick your ass from Wichita to Dallas and back without breaking a sweat.
And then her husband would finish you off, if there was anything left of your sorry ass.
“Oh Goody, where does your daughter live, maybe I can invite her on a drive through some woods.”
There are limits to what a person should or should not say, republipuke. When you start talking and asking about someones daughter, you need to be put away. Not only are you a stupid piece of trash, you are a real piece of sh*t. You have no worth, no value to the human race, and should be put away so the rest of humanity doesn’t have to read your hate filled tripe. Talk about a scumbag. If you represent the average republican, the average republican is a monster. Somehow, I don’t think they are, but you certainly fit the bill. I think you should take up XXX’s challange, you freakin coward. I’ll be there with a smile on my face.
As for this blog, and your posts, I’m done with you. I don’t communicate with people who threaten children, even joking. You are indeed brainless.
As the Republicans (used to) like to say family is off limits, or did that just apply to Cheney’s daughter? Now I’m confused.
Did I deprive you of your Liberties J M?
WSClark is the one that pulled the “granddaughter card” out of his shirt pocket and assigned the attributes of Ted Bundy to me.
Hmmm, his daughter is a child? I thought she would have been an adult?
Sure, I’ll take XXX up on his challenge. Is he a big jock or something. Does he pump iron? Is he all neck and no head? Exactly what may I expect from XXX? :)
Are you done with me J M because you cannot answer a simple question?
Libs get so mad when I play their silly little games of role assignment. Makes them mad when I actually take on the roles they assign me.
Such unsophisticated maroons. ROFL!
GS,”Is, or isn’t it legal to have the President declare a person an enemy combatant?And WHO voted for the Act that allows that?”
Whether or not the so-called patriot act is legal is still up to the courts. It’s certainly not consistent with the ideals of America that I was taught! It’s intent was to upset the constitutional balance of powers and give the executive branch all the perks of a dictatorship. And I was certainly never given an opportunity to vote on it. As I heard the tale, members of congress were not even given time to look it over before the republican leadership demanded a vote!
I still think that you need to check in with your health care provider, Republican.
And I suggested that you were to LOGIC what Ted Bundy was to young women.
You’re not playing with a full deck, Rep. In fact, your deck is a full suit short of reality. You need some serious help.
Really.
No kidding. Make the call.
Naw WSClark, let me play Ted Bundy just a wee bit longer.
Unless you can think of a better role I can play.
Perhaps I can play the role of a Lefty Liberal bloviating gas bag?
Oops, My bad WSClark! You’ve already taken that role!
What else you got for me WSClark?
“What else you got for me WSClark?”
Pity.
Awwww….
WSClarkie don’t want to play no more. Guess I go to bed now.
OK… Mr. Republican… You are just trying to find justifications for Rush’s quotes that there is no such thing as concensus in science, therefore, you refuse to believe what a “concensus” of world scientists believe about climate warming and change… You ALSO make the “talking points” error where you assume because you can find incidents that are NOT examples of global warming, and climate change, that none is happening….
That logic is what makes YOU and Limbaugh, and Hannity, and Drudge, and Levin, and Beck, and all the others, MORONS!!!
And, of course, you hate the U.N., and the Kyoto treaty… Bush only hates it, cause he cant spell it, or pronounce it properly…. what’s YOUR excuse??
And I agree with Clark… Go get your meds checked!!! LOL
Oh, good nite, and GOOD luck!!!
Republican sez,”Sure, I’ll take XXX up on his challenge. Is he a big jock or something. Does he pump iron? Is he all neck and no head? Exactly what may I expect from XXX? :)”
Republican, there’s a reason they call me TripleX. It has nothing to do with porn or booze. It has everything to do with size. I’m a BIG boy, about 265. Are you sure you want to slap me around? It won’t be as easy as when you slap your wife around.
As my good friend Hank Price says, let’s do lunch. We can discuss whether you’ve lost your mind or not.
“It won’t be as easy as when you slap your wife around.”
Republican has never been married. He still is a virgin, likely to remain that way, also.
Okay XXX, sounds like a plan, I like to eat. :D
When you two do lunch, let me know. I’ll buy!
Hank
Well Republican, you got it. Hank and I both work, so make it a weekend. You name time and place. Bring your slapper.