When Wichita saw its 16th homicide of the year early Tuesday in a west-side home invasion, it exceeded its total murders for 2005. And with the summer yet to begin, Wichita’s homicide tally for last year, 26, already seems too close for comfort. For purposes of further comparison, Wichita saw 24 average annual murders between 2000 and 2005, far fewer than the average 38 between 1989 and 1995. Year to year crime numbers can lead to faulty conclusions, but it’s not too early for city leaders to be asking questions about the murder rate. As Wichita Police Chief Norman Williams has said, “One is too many.”
Posted by Rhonda Holman
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73 Comments
That’s such a crock. Since we have concealed carry laws there can’t possibly be any gun related violence.
The major reason for more crime is less cops. There are 2 major deterrents to crime- certainty of capture is the most important and that means cops. The second most important is certainty of punishment which means prisons. One thing that Bill Clinton did that I thought was great was the 100,000 new police officers program. When that started, the nation’s crime rate went down by more than just a little. You would have thought that the “law and order” republicans would have continued to find the program but of course they won’t because, for the most part, crime only effects “the little people” they care nothing about. Hopefully President Obama will bring it back.
There are also a hell of a lot more illegal aliens coming to our state.
Look at all the Oklahoma License placte around. What do you think caused that? Yes, Oklahoma passed a bill denying benefits to anyone that has questionable immigration status.
So they go nexxt door to Kansas, a state that has not yet recognized this plauge in our state.
More illegal aliens more crime.
They are illegal to start with, and they keep doing illegal things to stay here WHEN THEY HAVE NOT RIGHT TO BE HERE!!!
Kev…for someone who doesn’t live here, you sure do have a lot to say about life in Wichita…
How is the murder total in Atlanta these days?
I agree, I thought violence was supposed to go down with all the honest law abiding armed citizens..what the hell hapened?Tyler…how many of the murders were committed by illegals?The problem is that we live in a fear driven society and we bombard our young people with violence in every form available…maybe children REALLY DO learn what they live…ya think?
I thought durden lived in Michigan…
Agreed Doug.
All these reports of murders must be part of the vast left wing conspiracy as reported by the uber left media….
Big eye roll here.
I thought all the pistol packin’ mamas in Wichita would have taken care of the murdering scum.
How many of those 16 murders were committed with guns? And how many by illegal immigrants?
Enquiring minds want to know!
Wondering if it’s the economy? This is the only thing which has changed substantively from a year ago. Not suggesting it’s the only reason, but just wondering.
While the higher number is tragic, I’d use great caution in drawing any conclusions. It may simply be a statistically anomolous year, there may be some unique circumstance (gang-related violence?) which makes this year unusual, or it may portrend some kind of trend. We simply don’t know. Speculation about causes is just that – speculation.
There is reason to look carefully at the individual cases, and see if there is any connection, trend, or correlation. I’m not implying any sort of serial killer, just saying that it makes sense to try to figure out what is going on. And that can only be gleaned by looking at each incident, not a numerical total that may or may not mean anything.
Of course, GMC is correct in his posting. I just love to add my speculation, from time to time, to the others.
Now we’re getting a first-hand look at why the darling of the CC crowd, John Lott and his “More Guns, Less Crime” book are viewed so critically by other researchers.
The facts show that CC has no influence one way or the other on crime statistics.
This can be borne out by our own experience: Baghdad, which has probably millions of guns, is the most dangerous city on earth while Tokyo, which has virtually none, is the safest city on the planet.
Perhaps the lawlessness of the bushies sets a bad example for the rest of society? If they defy the constitution and the rule of law, does it encourage others to ignore the rule of law?
CapnAmerica,
Japan also has some of the harshest punishments for criminals and a much harsher and less forgiving justice system.
There are more factors than guns in looking at crime rates.
Concealed carry is only an extra means of protection. It is not an end all to all violent crimes.
All of you typical anti-gun people are really over reacting today.
Oh wait, you over react and are typically irrational in almost all of your anti gun rhetoric.
I wonder, if those people had a home protection weapon readily accessable in their bed rooms if this home invasion would have resulted in a murder?
I can bet you if someone were to break into my home they would not be killing me.
Kev in the past you have made the statement that under Clinton his more men on the street made a big difference.
The Truth:”Ten years later, the grant program known as COPS (for Community Oriented Policing Services) has given $10 billion to help more than 12,000 police agencies hire and reassign officers. Politicians and police chiefs across the nation have said that COPS is a big reason for the sharp decline in crime rates that began in the late 1990s.But now, with the largest buildup of local law enforcement in U.S. history winding down, a lessflattering view of the COPS program is emerging: Federal audits of just 3% of all COPS grants have alleged that $277 million was misspent. Tens of thousands of jobs funded by the grants were never filled, or weren’t filled for long, auditors found. And there’s little evidence that COPS was a big factor in reducing crime.”
http://weldon.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=65207
What the mass media told you just wasn’t true. Don’t let this upset you but they do cloud the news pretty often in order to make it say what they want it to.
Dan Rather came under severe attack when he suggested that the lack of guns in the hand of private citizens have made them more and not less vulnerable.
“None of this was supposed to happen in the country whose stringent gun laws and 1997 ban on handguns have been hailed as the “gold standard” of gun control. For the better part of a century, British governments have pursued a strategy for domestic safety that a 1992 Economist article characterized as requiring “a restraint on personal liberty that seems, in most civilised countries, essential to the happiness of others,” a policy the magazine found at odds with “America’s Vigilante Values.” The safety of English people has been staked on the thesis that fewer private guns means less crime. The government believes that any weapons in the hands of men and women, however law-abiding, pose a danger, and that disarming them lessens the chance that criminals will get or use weapons.”
http://www.reason.com/news/show/28582.html
I could go on and get many more statistics like these that support the CC position. Hopefully you get the picture.
We as citizens should have the right to be protected in the event there is not a law officer around.
Please read the posted article to see what no guns really mean in England.
Not only is it the working poor that cannot afford 3 dollars a gallon for gasoline, but the middle class as well. Expect crime rates to continue until the root causes of high crude oil and gasoline can be brought down.
Making war in the middle east is the major cause and corporate greed is the other.
Bernard Getz, having been beaten before, was again attacked by four men on a New York Subway, shot all four and Getz went to jail while the four sued the city and became millionaires.
New York: The “anti-Gun-Nut Capital”
Ed I don’t know your age and am making an assumption. I think you might be old enought to have lived through ration lines and long fuel lines (70’s). One thing my father told me many years ago was that as hard as times were crime rates didn’t go up because they was an underlying morality that said that someone elses property wasn’t yours just because you think you need it more. Criminals are criminals are criminals. They don’t make decisions based on need unless they are supporting a habit and ‘need’ a fix.
Excusing bad behavior is enabling the actions of a few who want it all now and don’t want to work for it.
Poor economic times do not “cause” crime. To claim so is to ignore, or worse, insult, the millions of poor and disadvantage who do NOT commit crimes daily.
It’s an excuse.
Crime is caused by, well, criminals. Duh.
I may be wrong, but I’d be willing to bet that most, if not all, of the assailants in these murders were NOT CC holders.
Sure crime, at least in some limited sense, is linked to poverty. Crimes such as arson, vandalism, and destruction of property, certainly aren’t linked to economics (usually). There is no reason to believe that a poverty stricken individual is more likely to vandalize property. Crimes such as theft, robbery, assault, and murder should merit some attention in matters of linking poverty and crime. These crimes are potentially fueled by the lack of goods and the need to obtain those goods. Theft and robbery are directly related to poverty for obvious reasons. Assault and murder can only be linked when there is an intention to rob.
President Obama? Yea, he’ll knock down crime with all of his vast experience as a leader. What’s his resume? Two years? Man, someone with that amount of experience can only succeed. I bet his crap doesn’t stink either. I say we elect him now without a vote or an interview. Two years? He’s definately qualified to lead the free world. That’ll get rid of the criminals. A good looking black man who speaks well and is publicly pleasing to the ear and eye…..that hardly make “Obama” worthy of leading the greatest country in the world.
But apparently it’s enough for a white man who says nucylar…
GS
I offered that bet before CC went into effect, and on terms even broader than that. No one was willing to take me up on it . . . not one of the chicken-little alarmists would put his/her money where his/her strident huffing was.
Wonder why? Hmmm . . . perhaps for all the alarmists out there, even they know that the CC holder is not a threat to anyone (perhaps except a goblin). That the gun control advocates in fact know the guns aren’t the problem.
Gun control isn’t about guns, it’s about control. And who has it. And that’s what they seek.
Most murders involve people that know one another, domestic situations or drug trafficking. Random murders, VTech situations aside, are pretty rare. Home break ins of occupied dwellings are also rare.
If you feel you need a gun on you or at your bedside, do the due diligence and get the appropriate permits. Practice your shooting. Educate your family on the use of weapons. Keep your gun in good condition.
Just don’t believe that “more guns” is the answer, just as “ban all guns” is not an answer either.
ksgrm, I’m not excusing anything, just dealing with cause and effect.
Bush’s behaviour is also not helping this nation’s moral compass.
CCW holders have to submit themselves to extensive background checks.
They have to pay fees.
They have to attend an 8 hour training class.
They have to demonstrate ability to shoot well.
They have to submit to fingerprint records and a photo on file with the Attorney General.
These are not the people you need to worry about.
My dad says “warsh” the car and he’s not an ignorant man. If that is what you judge our president on then you need help. Ignorance is buying in to everything on the media as fact. The fact is that we are in a war and with war comes passion and with passion come irrational thought. Their are a lot of irrational thinking people who are not looking at the facts. The facts are that our economy is good…….so gas is high. Who cares? The un-employment rate is low even with 12 million illegal immigrants in our country. Our president has brought honor and respect back into the White House. He stands his ground and runs this country on principals not on polls and when you are dead and gone people will look back and see this president as one of the great leaders. Do I agree with everything he does? Nope, about half but I wouldn’t think twice about leaving him alone with my wife. He his an honorable man.
“Just don’t believe that “more guns” is the answer, just as “ban all guns” is not an answer either.”——————
That’s an honest assessment. One I can respect, although I don’t see it in the same light, obviously.
It’s simple. People Kill! A killer will kill regardless of what he/she has as a weapon.
Jared, you have to read a bit below the surface. The comment was not meant to focus on Bush’s pronunciation of nuclear. Bush had no more experience than Obama has now. He has shown himself to be inflexible, without strategic vision, even an idealogue.
Experience or lack thereof should not necessarily disqualify anyone. After all, Lincoln only served one term in the House. Lincoln, however, surrounded himself with well-educated men who actually disagreed with him…to the point of considering him a moron at first.
“Nope, about half but I wouldn’t think twice about leaving him alone with my wife.”
I wouldn’t leave George W Bush alone with my cat.
Nathan
Anybody who says “warsh” the car is a born criminal, communist, hates cats, cheats at poker, and is completely untrustworthy.
Um…
Ok Ed.
Aparently you did not see what he did for Texas as Governor. Bush has experience in business which is what this country is. A business. He is an educated man and surrounds himself with some of the most educated people in this country. You honestly don’t think that he has people disagree with him? Or tell him he is wrong? He believes he is on the right track regardless of what the polls say. He has information that we do not have and has to base his decisions on that. Not on what others think. I believe that time will tell and we will all look back on this with great surprise that Bush actually knew what he was doing. He has been surrounded by great political minds his entire life. That in itself is experience that few can say they have. He’s not an idiot. He is a succesful business man who turned a $500,000 inheritance into millions. Idiots don’t do that or I would be a gazillionaire.
I don’t see bush as someone who likes cats……..which makes him a great man in my eyes. I on the other hand would gladly leave him alone with my wife and her cats. Maybe he could make the cats disappear.
I have a great photoshopped picture of Bush putting kittens in a meat grinder – perhaps you would like a copy?
What did Bush do in Texas. I lived there so please don’t try to point out what he did to someone who experienced him. Were it not for his father’s wealth and political connections, he would never be where he is now. No business Bush has ever been involved with has succeeded on its own merit..neither his oil firm, his ownership in a baseball franchise, etc., etc. Check out the facts.
Yes, I agree he has information that we don’t have…like staff members who told him point blank to leave the 16 words out of the state of the Union…like a general who said it would take years and over 300K men to pacify Iraq (not so big a deal since General Winfield Scott told the nation the Union would need 300K men and 4 years to vanquish the South…Field Marshall Kitchener said about the same thing for WWI and it took over 4 years and over 5 million Brits)…
he also has cronies like Alberto Gonzalez, Cheney, and Rove.
His major sin is that he can’t tell the difference between the two.
Jared you are on the right track. Hang in there. I would trust Bush with my 15 year old granddaughter. I wouldn’t have done that with previous prez.
Coming from Oklahoma eventhough it was 20 years ago, I still warsh my car and my grandson is a champion highschool wrasler.
I love meat! But that is mean and kitten meat couldn’t possibly be worth grinding. I can’t imagine it tasting good. Who knows? Maybe withe proper condiments.
BOOMER SOONER!
I’ve gotta go. I am a republican so I must work for my money. No hand outs hear.
I have been tracking the crimes committed by guns in Wichita, so far maybe two committed by illegal immigrants upon their own, one shooting committed by a homeowner unjustifiable, two committed by a blade, all the others are related to gang activity or long time criminals.All of them are illegal to possession, not one related to a law abiding citizen.With respect to Ms. Kapaun, she was victimized by criminals.Home invasion is a trend because of the media, TV and movies, criminals have learned how effective the techniques works for the police and now are using them.Moral values of our leadership from every level of society are also an influence, which is saying it is OK to commit crime.
To reduce crime, one thing we could do is end the war on drugs.
May also I recommend that it would serve you well to purchase a door security bar.I have purchase door security bars from the local hardware stores, the kind that has a foot, a fork end and is adjustable.It is not fail proof but it will cause delay on entry, create more noise and giving you more time to take action.The cost of a door bar is in the $20. dollar range, security is priceless.
The effects of CCW on crime is far from settled:
“Lott and Mustard emphasize that few holders of gun permits are found to have committed murder, but they fail to recognize that the number of murders can rise from the passage of shall-issue laws, even if no permit holder ever commits a crime. First, knowing that members of the public are armed may encourage criminalsto carry guns and use them more quickly, resulting in more felony murders. Second, as already mentioned, the massive theft of guns each year means thatanything that increases the number of guns in America will likely increase the flow of guns into the hands of criminals, who may use them to commit murders. Notably, the typical gun permit holder is a middle-aged Republican white male,which is a group at relatively low risk of violent criminal victimization with or without gun ownership, so it is not clear whether substantial crime reduction benefits are likely to occur by arming this group further.”
see
http://www.brookings.org/dybdocroot/press/books/chapter_1/evaluatinggunpolicy.pdf
Farm Gal,”I thought all the pistol packin’ mamas in Wichita would have taken care of the murdering scum.”
Maybe they are, and that’s why the murder rate’s up.
“Happiness is a warm gun….mama”
Lott and Mustard have been proven to be full of it. Their research is totally flawed, so say the real experts.
“Kev…for someone who doesn’t live here, you sure do have a lot to say about life in Wichita…
How is the murder total in Atlanta these days?”
I have always known alot about Wichita and what goes on there. I was born and raised there and I own property there still. The murder rate in Atlanta is probably high as well. I work there. I don’t live there. I live in Lithia Springs.
“Wondering if it’s the economy? This is the only thing which has changed substantively from a year ago. Not suggesting it’s the only reason, but just wondering.”
I doubt the economy has much to do with it. I was around in the 70s when times were really a bitch and it was safer than what it is today. There was alot of property crime then but people getting killed were not the norm.
“My dad says “warsh” the car and he’s not an ignorant man. If that is what you judge our president on then you need help.”
My dad used to take me to get a “harrcut”. But he was dumb- and drunk too!
CC is retarded. Im supposed to pay a fee and jump thru a bunch of government hoops to do get the rights that the consistuition already says I have?
The real experts Mary?
Would those be the Violence Policy Center and Brady Campaign?
LOL
Warshing cars isn’t an indication of ignorance or stupidity, it’s a survival of when we used to have regional dialects that added color to our living language. Television, with it’s insistence on plain mid-western pronunciation and syntax has infected our whole country to the point where you can’t tell a southern gentleman from a Maine Lobsterman or a Californian anymore. We need color television, and not just in the picture!
No Nathan, the John Hopkins Center Institute and the CDC.Where do you get your “facts”…from the NRA?
The CDC?
LOL.
What disease are they preventing?
The CDC has already tried to push the policy of regulating ammunition instead of guns as an end around the Constitution.
They are just as political about being anti gun as the other far left anti gun groups.
Murder rates up 60% in Wichita…why isn’t the CC law making the murder rate go down like all those gun toting, patriot, rednecks promised it would?
At least the research done by the CDC has credibility, Nathan.”There are none so blind as he who will not see”.Keep living in your little hero fantasy world, Nathan, maybe someday you’ll actually get to shoot some bad guy.
Mary -please link us to the stories that show any of these murders were caused by CC holders.
Thank you.
Mary,
No one “promised” anything. If you look at the states which allow concealed carry you do see a drop in violent crime.
60% when you are dealing with numbers in the teens is not that much.
Either way, who cares? Concealed Carry is not causing this. It is not harming anyone.
It is called the Personal and Family Protection act. It gives people the option to be able to defend themselves and their family.Which is exactly what I’ll be doing.
The one thing you can’t argue is that if a Concealed carry holder had been at the scene of these murders there is a much greater chance that no one would have been murdered at all.
If those people had guns in their bedrooms to defend themselves that person probably would not have been murdered either.
Mary,
What does the CDC’s credibility have to do with anything?
They present numbers and statistics. Which prove nothing more than that people die.
I have no argument with that.
It is when you start saying that if only we were to ban or regulate ammunition then we could see a reduction in loss of life…
Then your crediblity goes right out the window.
Every discussion about guns you loose Mary. You have been refuted so many times on this blog I have lost count.
You are emotionaly and irrationally biased against guns.
I never said that the murders were caused by “CC holders”, GS.Lott and Mustard made the absurd statement that CC laws caused the crime rates to drop in states that passed it…which was totally bogus.
You are opposed to Concealed carry though, right Mary?
Why?
Your right, Nathan. I am emotional about this issue, because I’ve experienced first hand the damage done because guns are so available to everyone in this country. Compare the gun deaths in other countries that have strict gun controls to ours. Every year 5,000 American children die from guns…that’s not acceptable. Sorry that you think it is.End of discusson I have to go to work.I don’t see that I’ve “lost” anything, Nathan. I’ll contimue to believe in what I think is right no matter how many may disagree with me. I don’t need anyone’s aproval, Nathan, least of all yours.
Mary,
5,000 children die each year?
Now be honest for once about those numbers and tell us the break down.
How many were gang related?
How many were suicide?
How many were accidental?
What is the age of a “child” in that number?
Because it is very misleading to say that 5,000 children die each year without looking at those factors.
My legally owning a gun has nothing to do with the gang bangers shooting each other up.
Couple of points here:1) (16 murders divided by 5 months)x 12 = 38.4 murders in Wichita at an annualized rate for 2007. That’s right in line with the rate experienced during the Clinton years.
2) For those watching for the impact of the Concealed Carry law that was effective 1/1/07 (just 5 months ago) it will take many months to have sufficient numbers of permit holders to serve as a deterrent. Thus, violent crime likely will not go down quickly, and in the short-term, may actually increase.
Practically, only 2 or 3 thousand can go through training each month. And in the short-term, you may very well see an increase in crime as desparate criminals see a short window of opportunity to rob, rape, and murder before 100,000 Kansas citizens arm themselves.
Give it 2 years, then see what happens.
What a bunch of bullshit. Max and Nathan live in such a freakin’ fantasy world. What morons.
You can split hairs all day, Nathan. ANY child dying from a gun wound is one too many…but I suppose in your little military brain that’s just “collateral damage”. 30,000 gun deaths in the USA each year is unacceptable, it doesn’t matter WHY or HOW the gun was used, it’s just unacceptable.
From the rational arguments Mary makes on her gun phobia posts, it’s hard to dispute her.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr54/nvsr54_19.pdf
Homicides by Criminals Using Firearms in 2004 for all ages: 11,250 (Down from 11,920 in 2003)
Didn’t find the stat for kids yet, they are valued more so then adults, of course. The number must be something less then 11,920 though.
20,398 died from alcohol. Perhaps we should ban alcohol.
No, banning alcohol won’t work. 28,457 die from illegal drugs.
18,535 people died by falling down.
If a number is unacceptable, then we should probably ban whatever caused the death.
Mary,
I see you still refuse to answer the questions on what a child is.
Same old typical anti gun rhetoric at its worst.
You throw around numbers like that for no other purpose than to purposfully distort and misrepresent the true nature of those killed by guns in a vain attempt to support your own bias against them.
How many of those 30,000 killed were suicide?
How many were gang related?
Once again, when you look at the true nature of those killed you start to see that the gun is only an end to the means for these people and not to blame.
Nathan, Mary has no factually supported arguments. She has her feelings about the issues, that’s all. And some emotional rants and outbursts just like a child.
Maybe she’ll be educated here, obviously the public schools didn’t work for her.
Nathan, liked your posts above. No sense lookin up the facts though for those whose minds are so closed they refuse to read the facts and learn anything beyond the indoctrination they had in public schools.
I’m well aware of the anti-gunners stats which define “children” to be age 25 or less, though I’m not sure why the debates always wind up being about just the poor suffering children. I have 3 of my own and care for them dearly, but us adults have some value too.