Sedgwick County officials should ignore a petition by a group of Wichitans hoping to put a revote on the downtown arena on the Aug. 7 ballot.
As County Commission Chairman Dave Unruh pointed out, Sedgwick County held a series of public meetings leading to a highly publicized countywide vote on the arena in 2004, and residents approved the measure by a comfortable margin.
The Legislature has authorized the sales tax, and planning is well under way.
The arena is going to happen.
The group’s complaints about details of the arena, such as parking and seating capacity, don’t rise to the level of a revote.
Posted by Randy Scholfield
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135 Comments
Citizens have their reasons to be concerned about the arena. The different location and parking downtown.
It’s Dee Stuart involved makes the re-vote desires nefarious.
Mayans involved because he said, the people have to be heard.
Didn’t save him from losing the election.
They invited Mayans. Didn’t invite Brewer.
Ron Holt was there but didn’t agree with re-voters either.
Some just like to deny civic projects. (JWink)
Every community used tax money in their arena’s but also got corporate sponsors and partners.
The County has yet to get those partnerships. Not every arena project happens the same way.
I don’t agree it should be a 15,000 seat arena. Has to be larger, 18,000 seats, with the cupholders and leg room.
I wish the original vote could have considered that. Hindsight on this is so clear.
Not too many of us recognized the arena’s around. County got some iffy information. They desired a lower tax amount to vote on.
Seats with cupholders and legroom were considered after the vote.
Square feet of the structure and costs were considered. 15,000 seats fit the structure.
15,000 are not regionally competitive enough.
Still enough time for the County to realize that. Local Corporates have to help them realize that.
The Casino choice in Sedgwick County, is all we need to vote on.Democracy was served with the original arena vote.
Town in Arkansas constructing a new stadium for the Wranglers, I think it passed with one vote.
That Stadium is happening. Wranglers are moving on.
The River Festival has had 40,000 at a downtown concert, was there a problem with parking?
Signing a petition is a well-known way for citizens to have their voice heard.
The County may not be obligated to hear them out – but they should.
Revotes happen because circumstances change. Does this one qualify?
I think so.
it is the taxpayer’s money, so they get to change their minds. AND half the stuff promised was never followed through with in the planning. So in light of that, all bets are off. I guess people will know better than to vote on ‘proposed’ plans in the future huh?
I agree, PM. The people are speaking.
The higher-up’s need to pay attention.
Or risk being booted, en masse.
As my coining the term “Albino Pachyderm VI” implies I think the Arena is no better then just throwing money at a problem. It was a fail logic that thinks if you have trouble filling an existing venue, then you need to build a bigger venue!
If the whole argument is about 15,000 vs 18,000 seats then they should just add the 3000 seats and build the damn thing. Quit all the fussin about it and let’s git er done!
Randy: JUST SAY NO TO THE PROPOSED WHITE ELEPHANT DOWNTOWN ICE HOCKEY ARENA should be the title of your editorial. I have never figured out why the EAGLE supports the arena when most people and polls agree 85% of Sedgwick County voters NOW DON’T WANT THIS EXPENSIVE TAX FINANCED BOONDOGLE.
I suspect to STOP the arena in its tracks would embarrass those who supported the arena back down the line and show the total waste of taxpayer dollars that have been misspent so far.
Some of you supporters argue that the basically tie vote is over. You never acknowledge that at that time, some $300,000 tax dollars were spent by pro-arena supporters to support the arena and NO, that’s spelled N O, tax dollars were provided to the VOTE NO ARENA PEOPLE to fight the arena.
I remember when pro-arena people gave a tax-financed party in that park on Douglas formerly used by the homeless complete with food and a band — and virtually no one attended.
I remember when the pro-arena people took a tax-financed Continental Trailways bus to talk to the legislature in Topeka on a cold frosty winter morning complete with breakfast, dinner afterwards and snacks. That bus passed some of us anti-arena people, also taxpayers, more or less hitchiking up the turnpike to Topeka where we received an ice-cold reception from Kenny Wilk and some other legislative “leaders.”
I guarantee you $300,000 to ZERO makes a tight budget to fight publc issues. Never the less, the arena vote was a virtual tie. Unfortunately Sedgwick County has NO enlightened political leaders who see the significance of this tie vote for future votes on public improvements that are actually needed.
None of our “hold-over” county commissioners — Tom Winters, Dave Unruh nor Tim Norton — have demonstrated political leadership on any local issues much less than this arena fiasco.
Have any of them ever stood before audiences of voters and taken hard questions about any issues? The answer is NO. Being paid, so I am told, something between $65,000 and $100,000 per year plus snacks, they should give some kind of return to taxpayers.
I’m in a hurry now. But I hope to begin considering which pro-arena supporters to award the little orange Earl Broder, Wichita’s only presidential candidate, plastic COMMUNIST statutes. They can be placed on the dashboard of your car or for a lapel pin. A life size one would be appropriate for the front entrance of the downtown boondogle arena if it is actually built.
I wonder why it’s ok to have a re-vote when the arena issue lost, but it’s not ok now.
“residents approved the measure by a comfortable margin.”
Randy, that’s just BS. As I recall, the vote was pretty close.
I wonder how many people voted for the arena because they were threatened with a property tax increase if the arena issue didn’t pass.
I dont have a dog in this arena fight, but reading about it reminds me of something Tracy Streeter, the head of the Kansas Water Office said to me after they were caught violating the open meetings laws, negotiating contracts with Hays and Russell in secret, and slamming the deals through with no public notice or talking with the opponents.
Streeter voiced the official water office policy by saying “there are no do-overs in politics”.
So the game plan was clear. Lie, cheat, steal just “git ‘er done” as someone said. You could almost hear the voice of Malcom X saying “by any means necessary”.
Once it’s done, it’s done. Then you get the official, “move along here, nothing to see”. It’s over, we won, you lost, screw the process, screw the rule of law, screw fairness, and most of all…
…SCREW YOU!!!!!
The moral of the story? Voters need to examine such proposals carefully and demand accountability. Dont get caught up in the “rah rah” community bandwagon.
Remember, these folks, both the water office and your local officials, are not your friends. They are the government. They do not care about truth, fairness or following the laws.
They hire platoons of lawyers and lobbyists to BREAK the law or at least circumvent it. And later, when the “truth” comes out?
They shrug their shoulders and say “mistakes were made”. Sound familiar?
Jesus wept!
My Dad used to say there is no point in shutting the barn door AFTER the horses have escaped.
So this kinda falls along that line, but…
We do have the power of the ballot box. So do you. And I notice that every Hays city council member who voted to drain Cedar Bluff, save one, has been defeated in re-election, including the governor’s boys henry schwaller and kent stewart. wayne billinger didnt run again, and another guy did win his re-election two years ago.
Other than that one guy? Toast.
So, you could do the same in Wichita. Unfortunately, it is akin to closing the barn after the horses are gone, but it’s better than nothing.
And the other unfortunate part? Politicians and wanna bes have very short memories, and they spin their elections and defeats any way they want, since little exit polling is done on local issues.
That means the next elected officials will likely forget whatever “lesson” got them elected.
As gmc says “meet the new boss same as the old boss”.
And people wonder WHY conspiracy theories thrive? Hell, you couldnt even make up some of this stuff!
There’s also an old expression when chasing hogs. “Give hogs some dark opening to run into and they will do it.”
Chasing hogs in an open field is pointless.
Give them a dark door of opportunity to run into and the hogs will take it every time.
JWINK – There were many public hearings on this issue. I actually attended one that was held by the Sedgwick County Legislative Delegation. Tom Sawyer a democrat representative put it together and he had the County Commissioners there to answer questions from the audience.
So there was public input on this topic.
I for one did not support the arena because I did not feel that the City and the County had down there homework well enough to know what they were doing.
Ben! Are you familiar with Jerry Winkleman (JWink of this blog) and Darrell Leffew (the guy who started the anti-arena agenda and prior city council candidate) or how about Troy Newman of Operation Rescue?
Who do these people have in common? They belong to a far right Republican organization known as the Kansas Republican Action Assembly.
Their goal is to oppose the right to choose, oppose Sunday Liquor Sales, Gay Marriage and I can go on and on. But to stop the construction of the downtown arena is also another one of their many agendas.
You walk with the anti-arena crowd you walk with them.
Posted by: Joe Williams | May 19, 2007 at 11:37 AM
There’s alot of faulty logic there
Tom Paine – there is NO good reason for revealing who someone else is on a public forum, just because you may disagree with their agenda.
Wow, Randy, I guess 7,000 votes out of over a 100,000 cast constitutes “a comfortable margin” in your mind. Comes out to less than 7% when I do the math. And how many would have voted against it if the city council hadn’t brow beat them with a promise of higher property taxes if the failed to vote for it?
My guess is it would not have passed by a comfortable margin, probably greater than 7% at least. The arena has been climbing and climbing in cast since inception, and I don’t see that stopping. The city council wants nothing less than a legacy, but the cost is making it a white elephant.
There should be a re-vote on it, after all, it IS the residents money being spent on it. They should have a say in the matter when they meet the requirements.
85% disagree with the arena? Thats funny. What poll did that come from? Probably from those liberals. If 85% were now against it… then I guess they shouldn’t be having as much trouble as they have in getting those signatures. They should have three times as many, which they don’t because the majority has spoken. Tax gone in December, Arena built, topic over.
Core costs for the Arena have increased 45%. Provisions for infrastructure, parking, and reserve for operating losses has been slashed by 72%. Amount for the pavilions at the Coliseum has been cut 11%. Overall cost of the entire project, even after all those cuts away from the core costs, up by over 8%. Also, the City is spending money for support construction that had been included in the advertised budget. So, the TOTAL costs to the taxpayer are even higher.
So yes, the project has changed enough to justify a re-vote.
Dustin – you suggest the 85% figure “Probably from those liberals”. Joe! Williams claims all the opposition comes from “Their goal is to oppose the right to choose, oppose Sunday Liquor Sales, Gay Marriage and I can go on and on”. Hardly semms like “those liberals”! The fact is that citizens against the Arena cover an amazingly broad spectrum of politics – from the left to the right. That is why Joe! tries to isolate it as being only on the right.
Why do they fear a re-vote? We are going to have an election this summer for the casino issue. A number of jurisdictions are adding local issues to the ballot.
Put this one there too – settle it WITH THE NEW NUMBERS once and for all. IF it passes with everything that the public learned then the pro-Arena forces will be in a much stronger position going forward.
Dustin – I would remind you that this thing was voted down over 2-to-1 before it squeaked through last time. So let this new vote be confirmatory.
“Tax gone in December, Arena built, topic over.” Afraid not Dustin. The County will still have to come up with funds to cover operating losses. The evisceration of the loss reserve makes that a certainty. We have already heard the idea of extending the sales tax floated by the County Commission.
GS ????? as far I know Joe uses his own name when he posts, and what he said in the community thread is relevant here
Hi Tom. Interesting thing about Joe!’s logic. Since I agree with you and also with GS and P-mom about the Arena “I agree, PM. The people are speaking.
The higher-up’s need to pay attention”
Joe! implies that we now agree on EVERYTHING! Somehow I don’t think so …
Ben, isn’t Joe himself on the right? And Barb Fuller voted for the arena while Karl Peterjohn opposed it, I let Joe figure that one out
Gee, when the right and the left unite to oppose something, you know it’s got to be bad!
I just returned from 8:30 AM Mass at the Catholic Cathedral reflecting my deceased mother’s heritage. On the protestant side, I was president for several years of a large discussion group at the well-known Country Club Christian Church on Ward Parkway in Kansas City.
I have always considered myself a moderate Republican which I was during the many years I was a Republican Precinct Committeeman in Johnson County and later here in Sedgwick County. In Johnson County, I was also volunteer, unpaid, Finance Chairman of the Johnson County Republican Party which made me responsible for raising the money to pay bills for our Republican office, paid staff and office near Metcalf and College Boulevard.
I was never a member of a “Republican Action Assembly” or other right wing political organization that Williams or Mrage claim. I don’t think I have heard of it. I do contribute to political candidates/organizations but not in the thousands of dollars I once did. Candidates need to be supported and I have contributed to both sides from time to time in races in which I am interested.
I have been involved over the years in many civic projects both voluntarily and as an employee. I and my associate real estate brokers in Kansas City area were close to governors, legislators, local politicians, etc. on both sides of the state line. I feel I was and my associates were always on the positive side of civic issues.
Here in Wichita I find a very strange situation. A number of outsiders have taken control of the big money purse strings. They influence the amateur but big paid Wichita/Sedgwick County politicians to spend tax money on an “easy come, easy go” basis. For some reason, those in power who could stand up and say NO WAY are keeping mum.
Obviously here in southern Kansas where so many needs are going without financing or being solved — the idiotic white elephant downtown arena is on the verge of robbing the area of some $400,000,000.09 for something WE DON’T NEED, THE CITIZENS DON’T WANT AND HAS NO KNOWN PURPOSE OR TENANT.
Having been in the building development business in Johnson County in Overland Park, Prairie Village, Mission, and out on College Boulevard as well as on the Missouri side — I guarantee you private developers/investors never build those multi-million dollar office buildings, shopping centers and motels without a guarantee to the lenders that major tenants are lined up for them — in fact construction loans are not available without those guarantees.
Here in Wichita because taxpayers are picking up the tab, the attitude is “EASY COME, EASY GO” — The standards of the world of private investment are not observed and perhaps even known.
I’m trying to remember what other “issues” have been raised by MRage and J. Williams and their ghost writers from the tax-funded Downtown Business Corporation or whatever it is called.
Something was mentioned about the “public hearings” held for the downtown arena. I attended most if not all of them . People in attendance were by and large associated somehow with the project. Many people there confided they were opposed to the arena but were compelled to attend by some connection. Very few people attended from the communities.
I met both MRage and J. Williams at the EAGLE’s meetup last winter … both OK young fellas with minimal work experience. In fact I seem to recall discussing with Joe Williams that he should do his patriotic duty by joining the military service. Joe has later said “Two Joe Williams must have been there and I must have talked to the other one!”
BUT NOW THIS ARENA FOOLISHNESS HAS GONE ON LONG ENOUGH. COUNTY COMMISSIONERS AND STATE LEGISLATORS NEED TO STEP UP AND STOP THIS PROJECT BEFORE REALLY BIG DOLLARS ARE WASTED ON THIS UGLY STEEL AND GLASS BUILDING THAT WILL BLEED OPERATION COSTS WITH NO ONE OTHER THAN SEDGWICK COUNTY TAXPAYERS TO PICK UP THE TAB.
The arena vote passed by a bare margin based on a last-minute propaganda push by pro-arena zealots. If equal time had been given to the opponents, it would never have passed. A two-percent margin does not a mandate make.
This arena is a boondoggle, and once the developers and contractors have stuffed their pockets, it’s going to be an albatross around the city’s neck for generations. Business as usual.
The people aren’t saying much in arena protesting, they fear projections don’t add up?
County hasn’t collected all the tax yet. Wait until a real deficit happens.
The County hasn’t overspent any amount for the arena they originally planned.
We’re getting the arena, someone has to sue the County to stall the project.
A Judge will rule, where’s the fraud? None exists.
The County could have raised property taxes replacing the Coliseum on their own.
It would have been a more minimal arena than the one they are building downtown.
I believe 15,000 seats is less competitive against arena’s around us.
A smaller arena would make it a joke.
Wichita has enough problems than supporting joke of an arena.
The larger and better desired facility attracted quality arena designers. They suggest downtown is better spot. All their site choices were downtown.
County wouldn’t have spent so much money on their own. They would have had less quality of designers and still the Coliseum replacement in the same place.
County would have raised property taxes and created a more limited arena.
We all voted, the chips are down, the bet is in, there is a pot (events) to win!Can’t leave the table and take your money out.
You can leave the table (move out of the county) and never support the game. Many at the table will be playing for years.
We made the right decision to replace the Coliseum. The arena can be made better, with 18,000 floor seats.
No extending the sales tax at all!
Protestors don’t like downtown location, believe a conspiracy the tax won’t end and hate some County politicans.
If your ranting about cost of arena’s is valid, go to Tulsa and complain about their BOK center.(Bank of Oklahoma)
Go to Oklahoma City and tell their government, the Ford Center was wrong.
Go to Omaha and say the Qwest Center was a terrible idea.
Drive to Kansas City, find some Sprint Center directors, give them the finger and say the people should sue to never open the facility.
Cost overruns exist in all arena projects, your rants should be valid everywhere.
Create the groundswell to repeal arena’s no matter where they are.
Bottom line question: WHAT ARE THE ARENA SUPPORTERS AFRAID OF?
Let the people vote on the project AS IT NOW STANDS. We are holding an election anyway; why not add the other questions?
WHAT ARE THEY SO AFRAID OF?!
Cost overruns exist in all arena projects, your rants should be valid everywhere.
45% ?!?!?! I don’t think so Mrage!
This arena should not be built PERIOD. What a waist of money. How about we put the money already raised to the public school system, or to our police and fire men/women.
Tom P – Joe! says he is a Libertarian. You know, someone opposed to “socialist” ideas …
I personally could care less if they build a 50,000 seat arena downtown or anywhere else for that matter. I just think that the people that use it should be the people that pay for it. We have widows, retired people on S.S. and single mothers that scrape by paying the light bill helping to pay for an arena that they will never be able to afford to buy a ticket to attend an event in.
This arena should have never been funded on a tax paid by everybody. This arena should have been funded by a bond issue and repaid with a tax added to the cost of a ticket to get into an event.
I voted against it every time and I would be glad to sign a petition against it now.
I, like others feel that a large majority voted in favor of the sales tax because the county had threatened us with a property tax increase if it did not pass. In spite of the counties promise to us that the property tax would not rise if we approved the sales tax it has risen every year since then. That was another lie on their part that a bunch of suckers believed.
This is not over yet either way. Shortly after our sales tax increase runs out in December (if not before) they will be campaigning for us to approve a sales tax to fund the building of a casino downtown. In my opinion that is why the city wants rid of cowtown. Their goal is to build it there. The city and county will be moving on it quickly to get in our head that we are used to paying a 1/2 cent sales tax anyway so this wont be an effect on our wallet.
You will also hear the same rhetoric again. Either fund a downtown casino with a sales tax increase or expect a property tax increase to upgrade the coliseum as a casino. Mark my words.
I voted against it from the beginning because the people paying for it will probably never be able to afford a ticket to see the inside of it.
We were not told the entire truth about the costs involved or about the lack of parking. Many of the backers of the arena were either contractors or worked for contractors. They had to be aware that no construction project is brought in at budget. After change orders are processed the overrun is usually in the 25% range.
People who stand to gain from it’s construction were allowed to spend tax dollars to promote it.
In my 62 years I have never seen a ‘temporary’ tax. This altered and ill conceived prospectus should be given back to the voters to approve or disapprove.
This is why we as citizens need to be very careful of who we vote into office.
Very true ksgrm and bryan. I have already heard at least one Commissioner suggest the tax remain. By the way bryan – it is 1% not 1/2 %. And ksgrm – the current projected cost overrun for the core project is 45% – so far. That is NOT counting the infrastructure work being done by the City on City property taxpayers.
As I recall, what the voters approved by a tiny margin was an arena costing about $180,000,000 including on-site parking. That’s obviously not what we’re getting! Last I heard, it was at $280,000,000 and counting (but what’s a hundred million or so between friends?) and no parking, at least for you in the the peanut gallery. You can bet that the owners of those luxury boxes will get doorside parking.Nobody yet has produced any firm evidence that this arena is anything more than pie-in-the-sky, build-it-and-they-will-come wishful thinking. No ethical private developer would begin to risk money on what the voters were presented or what little has shown up since. Yet we, the public are expected not only to pay god-knows-how-many hundreds of millions to build this architectural monstrosity, and pay again to maintain it, but in a decade or so, when it dies of disuse, pay again to have it torn down! Somebody is going to be far better off because of this project, but you can bet your sweet ass that it won’t be the citizens of Wichita!
Oops, my typing error, it is and will continue to be 1% if the county and city has their way.
If private money was building it I wouldn’t mind having an arena downtown.
I’m not sure if it was already said, but the 1% ends in Dec. Its law, the only way to extend it is with another vote, which no one would support so it wouldn’t happen. The county wants a new 1% to pay for the other items they want, not for the arena. As long as the county starts charging for other cities inmates then that 1% should never come up again.
Dustin – on that yu are probably correct. That is why it will be so much fun to watch as they scramble to come up with the money to subsidize operations. They will argue that we must ‘protect our investment’ (sunk costs); we will remind them that they told us there would be a $24 million loss reserve.
Since we know we will never get to revote on the arena, how about a new idea?
Let the tax expire on the July date when it should (I know, more wishful thinking) and mandate that the arena will not be started until Waterwalk is complete! Then the county will have the money burning a hole in their pockets but the arena will never be started!
The was no lies or promised made on behalf of the downtown arena, with the exception that the 1 cent sales tax would be collected for 30 months to collect $184.5 million dollars to pay for the downtown arena.
That is what everybody voted on. Seating capacity, were it was going to be located downtown, design elements and etc were not part of the vote only the funding was.
As it stands right now, the downtown arena will cost less than the initial $185 million dollars. The rest above that is actually extra money collected during the time period that is exceeding projections. Since all the money has to go towards the arena and pavilions, they just increased the budget, not the cost.
Since there was no voter fraud or gross manipulation of what or where the money is going, there is no need for a re-vote. A re-vote is only necessary if something illegal happened.
Nothing like that happened.
I plan on going in front of the County Commissioners to speak that the re-vote arena group’s request for a re-vote is illegitimate based on their constant message to the public on the arena project has misconstrued facts and mis constructed and false information.
Jed is a perfect example of it. He is saying the Arena is costing $280 million. That is a flat-out lie. The organizers of the re-vote arena group have been saying the same lies over and over.
You cannot tell the public lies and misconstrued information about the arena and then ask the County Commissioners that a re-vote is warranted based on their lies.
The argument for the need to compete with Tulsa, OKC and KC is not supported by any facts ..
The most significant being:Metro populations (2000 http://www.urbantulsa.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A17072)
Ict 545,220Tulsa 803,235 (45% larger)Oklahoma City 1,083,346 (100% larger)Kansas City 1,776,062 (200% larger)
Population base does not support the argument.
.. and the notion for anti arena folks to protest to those cities is at best silly —–
Just because they have one — we should have one is just plain childish …..
…. Do something better than them something they aren’t doing — now that would be visionary — but oh — I forgot ICT needs people from Minnessota to bring in decades old ideas ….
Make what we have better — a casino downtown with an arena will turn the area into a honky tonk –
Made up assumptions are nutty…
>How about we put the money already raised to the public school system, or to our police and fire men/women.
By law, can’t do that! Sales tax collected has to be spent on the arena!
>Shortly after our sales tax increase runs out in December (if not before) they will be campaigning for us to approve a sales tax to fund the building of a casino downtown.
By Law, Casino’s can’t use public financing at all! That fact is in Casino proposals. Casino groups have to front their own $300 Million dollars, from some source.
>In my 62 years I have never seen a ‘temporary’ tax. This altered and ill conceived prospectus should be given back to the voters to approve or disapprove.
The Legislators would have pull the wool over your eyes. County can’t extend the tax at all!
>I have already heard at least one Commissioner suggest the tax remain.
You heard Dave Unruh say, the sales tax seems like a idea for different kind of projects. Better than property tax. Voters would have to approve another tax!
The County has no power to extend the tax.
>Last I heard, it was at $280,000,000 and counting
You heard very wrong! Cost projections are running near $200 Million for EVERYTHING. The Arena still is only $184 Million as it was in the beginning. We haven’t seen a detailed parking plan, but WATCH HAWKS Kelly Parks and Gwen Welsheimer on the County board were recently elected.
The tax so far is covering all the costs.
It’s easy to spin wrong information to make your anti-arena points and pat yourselves on the back.
Population in the County, not just Wichita.
It’s the County arena! 15,000 to 18,000 paying people can easily be found in this county.
Depends on the event if people show up. Depends if people around the state want to visit Wichita.
Joe! Core costs UP 45%. Operating reserve, infrastructure, parking, etc – slashed by 72%. THOSE ARE SUBSTANTIVE CHANGES.
I am sure you will be well-received by the Commission – they are fully invested in building this thing. I wish I could be there but I cannot be.
Mrage – the $184 was supposed to be for EVERYTHING – INCLUDING PARKING AND $24 MILLION LOSS RESERVE.
It’s easy to spin wrong information to make your PRO-arena points and pat yourselves on the back.
Joe! Mrage – why do you fear a re-vote with these changed numbers? Figure it will go down 2-to-1 again?
“Gee, when the right and the left unite to oppose something, you know it’s got to be bad!”
With all due respect, Jed, that’s a little faulty logic. The far anti-tax, anti-public funds for anything naturally opposed the arena as they do any proposed public venture, while there are a number of people on the left who see things like arenas as corporate welfare. By the same token, you have middle left and middle right people who see a positive relationship between public resources, including recreational resources, and community growth and the ability to address community concerns. Therefore, opposition coming from both left and right wing sources is not an indication that something is a good or bad idea. I myself voted for the arena, and I think it would be a terrible mistake to yank the rug out from under it now. That doesn’t mean that I am at all pleased with the poor planning that has been involved in it, or especially with the council’s embracing the idiot consultant’s claim that parking wasn’t an important consideration. But the reality of ANY project like this, publically or privately funded, is that there are overruns, unanticipated increases in expenses, and in public projects political wrangling. The inevitiable result of this progress is that you never have as many people happy as the project goes on.
That doesn’t mean that interrupting it is a smart thing to do. Because, there WILL BE major projects in the future, and the last thing this community needs to do is send the signal that we are inclined to yank the rug out from under contractors, architects, etc. months and years down the line.
“But the reality of ANY project like this, publically or privately funded, is that there are overruns, unanticipated increases in expenses”
45% is a bit much for an overrun.
Ben! Your feeble attempt to use projections on breakdown cost is not substantial.
Again! The vote did not have anything about how much a reserve fund should be, how much the demolishing cost will be, how much the land acquisition should be.
They made a reasonable projection. This was done before site selection, design and even before they even choose the architectural firm.
It’s still under $185 million. End of story. You can say anything you want about the breakdown cost associated with the total cost of the arena, but it doesn’t make a hell of beans and it doesn’t warrant a re-vote for it. And you no it.
It’s not that we are afraid of a re-vote, it’s that the vote already happen and giving in to lies and narcissistic people who voted against it and campaign against it in the run up to the vote just wastes time and tax payers money.
The re-vote group want to stop the downtown arena, period. Any concerns they have about cost or seating arrangements is a farse. They voted against it in the first place and they think they can flex their muscles to stop it just to give themselves a pat on the back, not because they have any real concern about tax collection or cost.
If you have any problem with the arena, take it up with Ron Holt or the Citizen Oversight Committee.
“Depends on the event if people show up. Depends if people around the state want to visit Wichita.”
That probably isn’t going to happen. Most folks in the eastern sector of the state will visit Kansas City. The folks in the far western portion will go to Denver or Colorado Springs. Wichita just doesn’t have much to offer in terms of tourist attractions.
The arena was a bad idea from the beginning and was sold to the voters as a “buy this (arena) or pay for that (repairs on the Coliseum).”
The so-called planners of the project also have failed to realize that they have already cut off several possible events by limiting the seating to a figure below what is required for several major tournaments.
If this was a private investment, there wouldn’t be a banker alive that would finance a nickel. This is just a bad deal all the way around.
I voted for the arena, reluctantly. My decision came down to 51-49 percent. I am sorry to say that I made a mistake on this one. I am sure that there are others like me that would like to have their votes back.
One sign of maturity is the willingness to admit a mistake and correct the error.
The voters apparently want to act in a mature manner – it is the City and County “leaders” that have chosen to act immaturely.
If the County doesn’t want to include the population of Wichita in the Arena decision, then the next time they can just tax the county excluding Wichita.
That will take them about 150 years to raise the taxes to build an arena.
WSClark! You just saved yourself a lot more money by voting for the downtown arena. To refurbish Brit Brown would have cost you more money. And the go ahead for Brit Brown was undemocratic. No public vote. They were going to go ahead with it, regardless of what the public thought.
At least you can be thankful for that. You choose the democratic and cheaper for your family option.
“The vote did not have anything about how much a reserve fund should be, how much the demolishing cost will be, how much the land acquisition should be.”
Then why did they include such details in their advertising. Joe! You feeble attempts to claim that what they advertised is unimportant is not substantial.
Again! The vote was on ALL aspects of the proposed project – parking, pavilians, operating reserve. I particularly asked about the reserves and was told that the $24 million would cover them. They acknowledged that the Arena will operate at a loss and that is why they said there would be a sufficient reserve. The $184 million was to cover EVERYTHING! I asked Holt that question; he clearly stated that it would.
Joe! If you are SO certain the people want this thing – WHY DO YOU FEAR A RE-VOTE?!
The project has changed substantially – you ‘no’ (actually the word is ‘know’) that Joe! And THAT is why you fear a re-vote. As for the cost of doing a re-vote – there is a county-wide ballot already. The cost of adding a question is minimal.
I hope they also put things like Sunday sales (which I favor) and the rest on the ballot. Lets exercise some participatory democracy on these issues.
Joe! The re-vote people have over 5000 signatures on THEIR petitions. How many do you have on your anti-vote petition?
Ben,
What’s the penalty for arena re-voters when the vote is denied by the County? Wow, some politicians might lose their next election.
Your acting like its a done deal for Aug.7th, not likely.
The County has a right to do business. The County has agreements with the sales tax and has budgeted use of those dollars.
To save themselves as a Government. Helps increase tourism to Wichita. They have a need for tourists and bring fans of events to town. They are subsidizing the airport.
You don’t want them to? Your wanting to pay more at the airport?
The County subsidy for flights is a choice. The City has to do to survive affording the airport. State now has a vested interest to give some funds to the subsidy.
Those governments can choose to not provide that subsidy.
Your fears of the $184 Million covering everything, the tax is raising more money.
The County didn’t ask to only raise $184 Million. It was tax for 30 months. Goal was to build the arena within a budget.
Your disallowing future dollars that will flow in the arena. Advertising. If events are on TV. Sales of luxury boxes and tickets.
Better to get the best events possible if we had 18,000 seats.
Your assuming nothing happens, no future money from advertising, no sales of luxury boxes and fewer than 100 showing up for events.
1000, what is the lowest number of people you assume will be at an event downtown?
Your assuming the worst.
County has a right to move projected dollars around. They are not running any real deficit.
Sigh!
Ben! You and the anti-arena crowd is best served to try to defeat the casino and Sunday liquor sales question on Aug 7th.
If those two questions pass, it’s too late. There will not be a re-vote on it either.
Ben! How many of the 5,000 signatures are from people who voted against the arena in the first place? Probably all of them.
The re-vote group shot themselves in the foot big time by lieing to people and the public. They will be be rejected based on this. I will let the County Commissioners know that the re-vote group deliberately lied to the people and the public by letting them know the figures they have been telling people.
What is funny is I called them on this, especially what was on their website. They took down their website in a blink of an eye. Can you say BUSTED!
Try again Ben! There is two issues you still can voted against this August!
The Downtown arena operations will run at a lost. So does Brit Brown and Century II. What’s the difference?
But Brit Brown is being replaced. All operation cost and employees will transfer to the new arena.
Sorry! Not good enough Ben! Get the re-vote crowd to vote against the Casino and Sunday Liquor sales.
I just don’t see this arena plan working out. Like so many other city/county projects, this one has a much greater potential of becoming another white elephant than it does becoming the anchor for the revival of Downtown and the City in general.
ksag,I agree that there is a place for public recreational resources, and have supported many in the past. My objections to this one are that we don’t need an arena at this location and for this amount of money.First, there is a reason that city expansion occurs on the edges, not in the middle. That’s where the space is! This arena, with no place to park, away from most shopping and other activities and no place to put them, and delusions of grandeur is doomed at the outset.Second, 180-280-??? megabucks is, by most anybody’s measure, a fair amount of cash, in a city that needs a lot of other things too. You’d think that the research would be done, all issues of it’s practicality settled and at least a preliminary contract for use of it would be in the works before we get it all spent. If any of that’s been done, we haven’t seen it; all we’ve gotten is a sales pitch worthy of any used car salesman.Third, the building proposed is an architectural monstrosity more suited to a 1960’s corporate headquarters than a 21st century public arena. There are many examples of much more beautiful and more useful public buildings out there. Is this the best us culturally iggorant Kansans can manage?
Mrage – just what tourists will the Arena attract? Any concerts here will also play elsewhere. Perhaps some from south-central Kansas but that will have no impact on airfares. Yout claim that the Arena will make it cheaper to fly to California is bogus.
Joe! Why would I work to defeat Sunday sales? I FAVOR Sunday sales. Didn’t you read my words? “Sunday sales (which I favor)” Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Even though I am totally uneffected by the Sunday sales issue I have enough of a libertarian tendency that I believe that private businesses should decide what days to be open. I stated that I want it on the ballot – it is called believing in democracy.
“Get the re-vote crowd to vote against the Casino and Sunday Liquor sales.” WHY! I favor BOTH! Joe! You tell us you took a communications class! Why do you have so much difficulty comprehending the fact that I have REPEATEDLY stated that I favor these things. Your FEEBLE attempts to muddy things with these irrelevancies are rather amusing!
“They will be be rejected based on this.” Yea sure Joe! ONLY by you communist pro-arena types. NOT BY THE VOTERS! THAT IS WHY YOU FEAR THE RE-VOTE! THAT IS WHY YOU AND YOUR PRO-ARENA ALLIES ON THE COMMISSION WILL BLOCK IT!
So be it. The 15,000 seat Arena will be built. I agree with that statement. And, when it has problems Mrage’s predictions will come to pass – there will be severe recriminations. In fact, I suspect that will even surpass the recriminations coming about your loss of the bowling tournament.
This will be fun to watch.
The population numbers I provided encompassed the Wichita metro area — not just the city –
Ben,
Delta is chasing the subsidy hard, by offering a direct flight from Wichita to Los Angeles. Was it $300 round trip? 50 seat plane!
Remember Delta tried to sue saying it was unfair they weren’t receiving the subsidy.
There is the evidence. The subsidy has to be supported, helped by the County having the Arena. Someday Delta wants the subsidy too if they can prove enough traffic heading west exists.
What fans will be at the arena? Why is Wichita the most visited city in this state right now?
Why come here now? They do. They will for events in the arena.
Casino is being supported downtown, they will spend $300 Million and not prove those tourist numbers to their investors?
More people will come to Wichita because we have a Casino and hopefully visit other business and attractions.
I’m pursuing the 18,000 seats, its not real to me, the County will stick with 15,000 seats.
I have no idea how the County will receive Joe or anyone else discussing more seats. Where’s the money matters. Money has to create those more seats.
I’m sure the County is flexible on the arena plans if a financial partner stepped in. Take some of risk affording the arena with them.
Mrage – you did not answer my question: How will the Arena effect air fares to California? Do you REALLY believe tourists will flock to Wichita to see the Thunder?
Yes, there ARE reasons people visit here – I know, I have helped bring some people here. But it was NOT to see a hockey or basketball game.
“its not real to me, the County will stick with 15,000 seats.”
Better get used to it Mrage – the Arena will be 15,000 seats.
Ken,
We have enough people to support the arena and luxury boxes.
We don’t have the Wranglers.
A better variety of events come to town. Better venue for KSU, KU and WSU men’s basketball occasionally. Inviting teams nationally to Wichita, for them to play against. On national TV occasionally.
We can compete with fans in our arena same as Tulsa, Oklahoma City, Omaha and Kansas City. Fill the 18,000 seat no matter where its at.
Tulsa has two colleges with their own arenas and still built the BOK center. I have no idea if Tulsa or Oral Roberts will play basketball there.
They Oklahoma City Ford arena just down the street.
—–
Ben,
I don’t see The Thunder, never have. Don’t figure to be at their games downtown.
I don’t count them as necessity event. They will take some nights, put on games. They have fans.
Does Wichita need a higher level junior hockey team? Thunder is like the third or fourth level of hockey.
SMG is a highly professional marketing company, the events they help bring to town, I’m sure plenty of ticket buyings fans will like.
Again, SMG is considering a higher level Arena football team no matter what Wink is trying to do.
If we get the Big 12 tournament, KSU and WSU create four team small tournament games. Occasionally, KU game downtown and its on National TV.
Some people will fly to Wichita and see those events.
We can try to get those events if we had 18,000 seats. Harder to market a 15,000 seat arena.
Arena football is going to attract tourists from across the country? You gotta be kidding me! Big 12? Already ruled out. “small team tournaments”? What makes you think THAT will impact airfares?
My question remains unanswered. How will this 15,000 seat Arena impact airfares?
Sedgwick County and the City of Wichita could not support the Triple A Wranglers and is on the verge of losing the Thunder. At many hockey games, the players outnumber the fans. The Rolling Stones, the absolute highest grossing rock act in history, could not sell out Cessna Stadium for their Deathbed Tour.
Most of the music acts that come to Wichita play the Cotillion, a decent enough venue, but hardly a large facility.
A fifteen thousand seat arena will not qualify for the Big 12 B’Ball tournament or NCAA regional games. WSU already has a good facility for their games, and is would not be likely that KSU or KU would give up their home games without huge financial incentives.
Arena Football? I am a hardcore NCAA and NFL football fan. I have never seen an AFL game and never will. If arena football is a sport, then William Hung is a rock star.
I hate to be a hater, but Wichita just does not have the appeal to draw audiences and major acts to a major arena.
As much as Wichita would like to be a playa, the city will always be just a wannabe.
Ben! I don’t have a reading comprehensive problem. I have a “bored of reading your post so I don’t read every single one of your post” problem.
Meaning! I don’t take the time to read all your post, because frankly, I could care less.
But I guess it’s my fault for grouping you with others of the anti-arena crowd, who is also advocating against the casino and Sunday sales. I figured you were with them on that too.
But, by your anger and how easily it is to take apart your logic to kill the arena project, I assume you could care less about the cost of the arena. You are in for stopping the arena on principle only, which is what Dee Stuart is in it for.
The Arena could cost $20 million and you and the anti-arena crowd would still bitch about the GOBN conspiratorial aspect of the project.
I don’t make any false statements for the arena, nor do I claim it will do anything to spur additional economic growth. I call it for what it is, a replacement for Brit Brown, because that is what exactly what it is.
About Tulsa! Same parallel is happening there. They also have a oil business man building a small 4800 seat arena there too. Plus they have the same old tired group that also tried to stop the BOK center after it passed claiming the same BS that anti-arena people here are doing.
So the issue isn’t about cost and downtown arenas. It is the people trying to make a scene. If this kind of thing goes on in Tulsa and it happened in OKC also and if I do some research, probably every city in this country where you had a public vote and then a group trying to stop it afterwards, then the issue of the downtown arena is moot.
When liquor by the drink was voted on, when lottery was voted on and both passed, a tired old group tried to reverse those votes in court.
What it really is, basically narcissistic people. Look at Dee Stuart of Park City who annex land away from Sedgwick County to piss them off, same goes for demanding a casino vote for her town, but then she’s against it now because the likelihood of it going to downtown Wichita. She’s a bomb thrower. She was for the county spending upwards of $110 million to renovate the Kansas Coliseum Complex, but is against the Downtown Arena. She’s just against anything that doesn’t involve her stroking her own ego and so she bitches all the time and keeps puffing away at those cigarettes. She’s a bitter mean spirited old broad who hasn’t cracked a smile since she gloated about her mayoral win.
Then you have the rest of them who are against everything. These are people who vote against everything including voting against the retainment of Supreme Court Judges of Kansas just for spite. Spiteful , hatefully and miserable people.
When I see Ben often blow-up, it just reminds of them.
WSClark. You’re grossly misinformed. The Wichita Thunder is the second highest attendance int he league, next to OKC. They average 6300 a game and growing. Brit Brown only holds 6900 for hockey, meaning that the Thunder will outgrow Brit Brown in the future. The Thunder is wildly successful here.
Wranglers move has nothing to do with our fans. It had to do with a Wal-Mart executive who sits on the board of KC Royals. And to keep the facts straight. Wranglers are Double A,not Triple.
And we have many offers of other Double A and professional teams willing to take their place. It isn’t going to be a problem.
Get the fact straight.
” I assume you could care less about the cost of the arena” Bad assumption Joe! If I didn’t care about the cost then why would I have carried out an accounting analysis of the various components?
“how easily it is to take apart your logic to kill the arena project,” Then why not do so in the re-vote. Joe! Your FEAR is palpable!
Joe! I am ‘in for stopping the arena’ because I believe it will hurt my adopted home town. Since I have heavily invested in this City that matters to me. I am both a homeoener and also a proncipal in a company that is located downtown. We have gone with downtown Wichita rather than the outskirts or the suburbs.
I am glad you admit that you don’t bother reading carefully and you don’t really care if you know what you are talking about. That explains a lot.
For the record – I believe that the parking and traffic issues can be dealt with. We have developed a combination parking and traffic plan. It is available if the County wants it.
“And we have many offers of other Double A and professional teams willing to take their place. It isn’t going to be a problem.”
OH? Care to share your superior knowledge about this with us plebes Joe! Will there be baseball in L-D next year?
Technical question – what would it take for it to appear on the ballot? 3 Commissioners votes?
Keep telling yourself that Wichita is a boom town, Joe.
The Wranglers…..
The Wranglers, who made it to the Texas League championship series this year, were last in attendance with 177,758 fans
http://wichita.bizjournals.com/wichita/stories/2006/11/20/story1.html
If the Wranglers are last in the league in attendance, why would another team think of moving here?
“vote against everything”
Interesting seeing as I vote FOR school bond issues. In fact, it is often “Libertariens” who vote against. Don’t you claim to be a Libertarian Joe!?
WSC – welcome to the “grossly misinformed side”
Joe! Since you have good information sources care to tell us who lost the bowling tournament?
I will not be going to any events at the arena simply because of high prices of corn due to ethanol production, oil and gasoline prices rising and immigration causing the lowering of wages and standards of living. Simply put forth, I cannot afford it.
I was wrong about the attendance levels for Thunder games, Ben. I have to wonder, however, how many of their 6,300 fans per game are paying customers. The games that I have gone to have been with complimentary tickets and a lot of fans were disguised as empty seats. I heard recently (a year or two ago) that the Thunder was looking to move, sell out or disband due to operational losses.
Anyway, I still don’t see the arena being anything other than a cash hog for the city.
mrage,
you mentioned the Bank of Oklahoma’s sponsorship of Tulsa’s arena, Ford’s sponsorship of OKC’s arena, and Qwest’s sponsorship of Omaha’s arena. You didn’t mention Sprint’s sponsorship of KC’s new arena. And Wichita’s big-money-contributing sponsor is ???
The Wichita arena is equivalent to a micro-version of the war in Iraq: take many taxpayers’ money and put a big share of it into a small number of pockets. That’s a winner’s game for the money’s recipients. It’s a loser’s game for the payors. There exist win-win opportunities, such as investing in a bio/nano/info-tech center at WSU, but the arena-schemers aren’t interested in this kind of 21st century idea. This would require strategic vision, which the short-sighted self-serving tacticians don’t possess.
Bill Gates is a strategist. His vision brought in hundreds of billions of dollars from the outside world to Redmond, WA, that were redistributed locally. Some OKC basketball (Sonics) team owners, tacticians, wanted Seattlites to pay for a new arena, to put local circulating dollars into their own pockets. They were rebuffed.
If a community is controlled by tacticians, it will fail. Economically, a city has to strategically figure out how to bring in net-positive outside-world trade dollars. The arena scheme doesn’t do this. It just takes money that is already in the community and redistributes it. The expenditure constitutes an opportunity cost, i.e. it could have been used to develop enerprises to bring in outside-world trade dollars to expand the local economy.
A Missouri Valley Conference mens basketball championship every 8 years will bring in outside-world dollars. But not enough to cover the arena’s construction and other-7-years operating costs.
On that we agree WSC. I noticed in the paper that their last game – a playoff game – had fewer than 5000. That is why I expect it to end up in Hartman’s place. A modest 5000-seat house that will be filled might be an exciting atmosphere. The idea is for the noise to reverberate.
I am still at a loss to try to figure out what will be the anchor for the Arena. Concerts? I think you covered that well. (Although since I went to the Stones concert I’m not sure about ‘deathbed’) Big 12? Ruled out by 15,000 seats. NCAA? Probably likewise.
NBA farm team? I doubt that will draw many people. There is a fundamental problem endemic with such arenas and teams. I am told that Wichita is trying to attract “knowledge workers”. These will be college graduates. As such, we tend to follow our college teams – UCLA mostly in my case. So, I might go to Players to see a game on the big-screen as I did when they played KU in the NCAA. We are unlikely to go to an Arena to watch the ‘Wichita Aeros’ or whatever in a minor league. So, what will be the base?
Years ago I did favor an Arena in concept. The key was to bring WSU to the table; this was back before the renovation on campus. My location would have been a ‘brownfields’ site on the west side of I-135, basically between Old Town and WSU. That would have leveraged the money that ended up being spent on Koch Arena; WSU would then be the anchor tenant.
But, with this still un-named one … what will fill it?
“And Wichita’s big-money-contributing sponsor is ???”
Joe! Get your company to step up to the plate!
Mark,
Naming rights by a corporation on a facility, what’s that?
Temporary. I wasn’t glorifying their names, but pointing out the arena facilities exist around us.
Sprint pays $2 Million a year for 25 years they said, to name the arena in Kansas City. That happened prior the bad merger with Nextel.
So far the Sprint name isn’t attracting a professional tenant to use the arena.
Maybe the Clippers will move to KC. Maybe the Sacramento Kings, unable to construct an arena that costs over $500 Million dollars there. Kings would be moving BACK to Kansas City.
They have to renamed The Show!KC,the Show-ballers! An improved name that means something in Missouri.
Those new Seattle Sonics owners should just move them to OKC, if the NBA allows it, they will.
Seattle isn’t interested in publicly paying for a new arena there.
It was a magic place for a long time. Seattle had great NBA teams for awhile. Everything can’t last forever.
The downtown arena needs a real corporate partner, better than just a naming rights corporation.
We can survive without a single tenant too.
It would be great if that corp or individual found a business model within the arena and markets something to greater success.
When the public desires something, a need is met by innovators.
We haven’t experienced life in the new arena so some of us can’t make the experience better just yet.
No matter what city has their arena, it can give workers a place to relax or see events. It’s a community celebration place. Really nothing more than that.
From relaxation, some can come up with great business ideas.
Someone opens a new bar every year, can get really busy and successful, but what’s new?
The bar is attractive to a different generation of people is all.
Bill Gates lucked out on creating software that was useful. The Fed was his first client.
He was genius getting the world license and blocking competitors for a long time.
But Bill Gates can’t beat Google. Losing to Apple with I-Tunes. Doesn’t have market share in all things.
That’s innovation. Taking the marketplace as it exists and making it better.
Until we have the proper sized arena, I don’t know what the future may hold for some citizens in this community.
A new drink might be offered in the arena, that becomes national. Something to eat is marketable.
Someone filming a great event at the arena gets noticed. Becomes a Hollywood director. Starts the new movie company from right here.
Some people are “discovered” in a crowd. At a Concert some girl gets pulled on stage becomes a TV star. At any event where there is camera, someone unique can be discovered.
Some are trying to make Wichita competitive in lifestyle with other communities.
We can’t shoot ourselves in the foot by creating an uptight and stressful 15,000 seat arena. Many will feel the smallness of it in comparison to arena’s in neighboring states.
Then we’ll watch events pass Wichita on by, because they require 18,000 seats.
SMG really scrambling to entertain Wichita. People fretting about the arena financials worse than they do now.
Events that happen elsewhere, most can come here with 18,000 seats.
If people would stop the re-vote feelings and demand to be entertained best ways possible, the County would realize that. Try to improve the arena with those desires.
It doesn’t have to be like pulling teeth. Lets all help create an arena we can be proud of. A place where your comfortable to see events. More events filled, ticket prices could cost less for the less popular events.
Who knows, we have to create the environment. A good arena improves Wichita. What the citizens do with their pride, is up to each individual.
Someone might know a key person that moves here, totally changes our community fate for the better.
A move happened because someone was proud coming from here and explained that.
Haven’t some key people in Wichita gone on to great national lifestyles and their business took off! Sure! Pizza Hut, Rent a Center, those extended stay hotels. Shipping companies.
They did it when we had to the poor Coliseum and old WSU round house. Failure at Cessna Stadium.
Too bad Wichita couldn’t celebrate Barry Sanders while he was at top of the NFL. He was from Wichita but there wasn’t a college football team to completely identify him, here.
He’s now in the College Football Hall of Fame as a Oklahoma State Cowboy. Both him and Thurman Thomas teammates there are in the NFL Hall of Fame.
It’s why T.Boone Pickens has placed nearly $200 Million dollars in the athletic programs at Oklahoma State.
That was a community improvement process lost by our own civic failures.
Guys who ended the WSU football program runs the Big 12, and two others are Athletic Directors at KSU and KU. What has Wichita benefited from their knowledge, nothing so far.
Some rare Wichitans are Hollywood actors but they don’t run movie studios yet.
We get a country boy signing a song downtown on his video.
We have to create a well respected home, where we live. It’s where some will come back and really support this city and county.
Wichita’s image is a failure to do most things right.
“The downtown arena needs a real corporate partner, better than just a naming rights corporation.”
THEN YOU NEED TO GO AND GET ONE!
“When the public desires something, a need is met by innovators.”
GOOD! THEN DON’T RELY ON TAXPAYERS!
“We can’t shoot ourselves in the foot by creating an uptight and stressful 15,000 seat arena.”
TELL THAT TO JOE!
“Lets all help create an arena we can be proud of.”
THAT IS YOUR JOB AND JOE’S. SINCE I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT CAN BE DONE IT CANNOT BE MY JOB.
As noted above, we HAVE developed a traffic/parking plan. It is available.
“Try to improve the arena with those desires.”
CAN’T MAKE A SILK PURSE OUT OF A SOW’S EAR!
Ben,
On the sports radio early today a former NBA player talked about San Antonio in the 70’s. That water walk today lined with stores and restaurants was a sewer line.
San Antonio did turn a sow’s ear area into silk.
We can’t use our river that way, its too wide, but we can make somethings really nice in Wichita that defines this city.
I’m sure San Antonio didn’t get a corporate sponsor to fix their sewer.
It took innovation by people who cared about the community.
Lets promote the facility, qualities of our arena, before caring what corporate name it will be.
Mrage – as you should be aware I have been one of those working to make our River a real attraction. In fact, it is NOT ‘too wide’; it is precisely the fact that it is a real river that gives it its potential.
I AM one of the people who cares about my community.
What does that have to do with your arena?
Umm – in San Antonio although I barely remember it, the river walk existed in the 1960s. Our family went to visit the Hemisphere of the Americas event, forgot what it is called exactly in the late 1960s.
More projects were done of course to the River Walk and I have visited since then, but it reminded me of something you would see at Six Flags, not a historic site.
Besides, San Antonio has probably 5-8 times local population compared to Wichita.
This was back in the day when the very powerful Democratic Congressman Henry B. Gonzales was muscling San Antonio into the lime light.
I don’t see our Congressmen doing anything other than aircraft jobs and recent accomplishments have been kind of sketchy. One gets the impression that Tiahrt could give a crap about Wichita.
I too am in line with those voters felt they were lied to by the gross misrepresentation of the proposed arena.
If there isn’t a re-vote, we can force one by petition. Then, we’ll take a very close look at those in County and City government trying to block a re-vote and decide their fate.
Incorporate what you see valuable in the river and put those qualities on the arena.
That is up to you. Thanks to fate the arena isn’t over the river as Dave Bayouth drew up.
But there has to be something that can tie the arena to the river. Color of something along the river that’s painted in the arena.
River can’t run through it.
Innovate! How to promote the River and Arena so those are qualities about Wichita that are known.
Improvements downtown don’t dirty up the river, ways to protect it.
Publications that say, if you park far and need to walk toward the arena come back and walk by the river.
Something. It’s not one project taking from the other.
Advertising during sports events on TV can be sponsored by your river group. Make commercials showing quality of the river.
Make the national media believe the river is glorious here. We need to believe that.
By the way Mrage – I don’t recall seeing YOU out there cleaning up trash along the river before river Festival. Were you there? If not then why not? I have been doing it for years. We in Sierra and Ark River Coalition started the whole thing.
That’s a bad image we have. Great airplanes built behind walls, hidden from view until finished.
We should have a see through facility where one plane is being constructed 24 hours a day until its finished.
Celebrate the airplane manufacturing as a tourist attraction people can witness.
A glass walled building where a new plane will form then flies away eventually. Lit up at night people can’t bother the workers, but see them doing the welding and wiring.
The airplane industry is too hidden here. People come to town and miss their technology.
Is it a one time experience to clean the river Ben?
I wasn’t out there last time, had some things to do that morning. I’m not against community clean up at all.
That’s not the point, the situation is how to promote the River and Arena projects so it satisfies you.
Those people who trash the river feel the same way about it, as you do hating the arena.
Clean ups should be announced more often, that’s the spirit of Community thread or Open thread. Announce when cleanups happen.
No Mrage – we do it every year. WE, who care about our community, MAKE the time and the effort.
“Our River, Our Responsibility.”
We DID announce it. YOU KNOW THAT!
see, that’s the difference. WE didn’t demand the taxpayers pay dor it. Even the slogan adopted by the City was donated.
Ben! The downtown arena will not hurt Wichita. That’s absurd.
If you voted against it, then you voted against it. You’re voice was heard back in 2004.
Plus, it’s not my job to seek corporate sponsorships or to promote the arena. I formed the support arena website to counteract the anti-arena group to make sure that the facts of the project stayed inline, but the anti-arena crowd did not do that.
The arena is what it is. It’s a done deal, time to move on. If you’re concerned about the cost and tax collection take it up with the citizen tax oversight committee.
Wichita’s problem, as people say it is, it’s that the negative people speak the loudest. Cities are not built on negativity, backwardness, unwilling to risk take and yes… money bags from the government to put into infrastructure and amenities.
I for one believe that Wichita is a great city and is making it’s mark. We are growing quite well, our quality of life is great, we don’t have a corrupt government, and many residence of our area actually take pride of our city and try to do things to improve upon that.
But we will run an experiment. I know it can be frustrating to see so much government involvement and resources going into so many projects, especially when they are slow going and raked with delays.
The Peerless Tower will be an example of a volunteered supported project. If the Peerless Tower can be built with donations and corporate contributions without a single $1 from government, with the exception of land, then we can see if our community can support featured amenities without government’s help.
If you want to make a case and to prove that private/public partnerships dealing with millions of tax payers monies are the wrong course of action and that there is a better way to do things, especially for projects that will not be profit orientated enterprises, then make the case and prove it can be done voluntarily and help build the Peerless Tower.
The cleanup was on open thread and then had its own thread (I recommended it to Scholfield).
In past years the cleanup has been Sierra Club and Ark River Coalition only; this year corporate citizens Bank of America and BG Products joined.
Last year Service Master provided ‘logistics’ support to the Coalition.
Mrage – you WERE unvited.
Joe – as I have said before I hope you are right about your arena.
Site for your tower – halfway between Arena and WaterWalk. “modernistic with modernistic” designs.
“That was a community improvement process lost by our own civic failures.
Wichita’s image is a failure to do most things right. ”
What’s changed in our civic leadership to change the above?
Nada Zip Zilch —- well ahh speaking of that 100 M bowling tourney
Are the guys from Minnesota staying?
Big 12 might come here for an exhibition game — why would they take their biggest tourney of a year to a city that is not close to one of it’s schools — KC to Lawrence 35 -40 miles, Lawrence to Wichita 180.
Wichita (and surrounds) lacks the population base, travel and transportation infrastructure to support the arena.
Money would be better used to lure a large company(s) here — bring jobs, not moe expenses to the city …
I should acknowledge that Joe did join in the cleanup effort.
ken – I would add improve our parks and ope space. These have been shown to attract the so-called ‘knowledge workers’ who desire a high quality of life. Thus my volunteer efforts to our River.
“… it’s that the negative people speak the loudest. Cities are not built on negativity, backwardness, unwilling to risk take and yes… money bags from the government to put into infrastructure and amenities.”
I’ve been back here a little over a year, the people here enjoy it — the only negative things I’ve heard have been about the city and county management ….
“… government money bags…” absurd
If an arena was such a good idea, why didn’t Bill Warren build it? or Ruffin? They’re the local big time entertainment gurus around here. Because it won’t make money!!!
or maybe there just being good business men and waiting for it to go belly up so they can buy for 50 cents on the dollar
Why didn’t business men build the Kansas Coliseum or Century II?
Was those a complete waste of money? They shouldn’t been built, right?
By the way – we also introduced a lot of people to the fun of canoeing and kayaking on the river yesterday at River Festival. One of the 100% volunteer events at RiverFest was our river rides.
It had been scheduled for the first weekend but had to be rescheduled due to high water.
Right on, Randy! It’s too bad that people are wasting their energies on a useless re-vote rather than working to the future and what the arena can do for us.
Just say “NO” to any re-vote.
The topic is the arena — but if you will:
Did the budgets for those 2 increase by 50% or so from inception to completion? There is nearby parking at those 2? How were they financed? Special Taxes or bonds?
How many times were people asked to vote on them before they got approved?
The money would be better spent attracting businesses and jobs — exactly how many jobs will the arena bring to the area after the construction?
Ken,
Wichita is only place with a developing arena that could hold the Big 12 tournment and use Koch Arena as well. The tournament requires two arena’s. Big 12 women would play at Koch.
Travel problems, from where? All Big 12 schools can travel here.
Those from Texas and Oklahoma come through Wichita all the time anyway. Those schools busing to Oklahoma past through as well.
Wichita is right in the center of the Big 12 conference.
Tulsa is chasing the tournament, next week, so must Wichita someday, like next year.
SMG markets both arenas, ours and Tulsa!
Ben,
You have to imagine advertising during arena events will be heavy with river views sponsored by your organization.
How often cleanups happen, the usefulness of the river as recreation.
Like I said, tie some great images about the river in a promotions facility like the arena.
Good things could happen if everyone was relaxed about the arena project. It’s the proper size and the County is chasing events that could be exciting to have here.
With 15,000 seats everyone feels stressed about it. Too expensive for that sized facility. No ability to get the best events.
Doing the right thing until something better comes along to assist those efforts.Stay concerned about the river, others have their desires on the arena. Somewhere the two projects will meet.
The River clean ups matter and so does the arena equally.
No Mrage, the advertising will NOT be full of things from our VOLUNTEER group. You seem to think we have lots of money. We do not. Unless your Arena is going to give us free spots which I highly doubt. Or are you looking for us to financially support your Arena with our hard-earned money by advertising hoping that might get some of your people to help with the River?
“arena that could hold the Big 12 tournment” – already ruled out Mrage. You know that.
“Stay concerned about the river, others have their desires on the arena. Somewhere the two projects will meet.” How will our unpaid volunteer efforts meet with your Arena? Are the Arena people suddnly going to give of themselves and volunteer?
“tie some great images about the river in a promotions facility like the arena.” And how do you propose tying the river to your Arena? Or is this just another attempt to get us to financially support your Arena somehow?
In other words, Mrage, you are telling me that I should support your Arena because I will be allowed to purchase advertising there? Sorry, that dosn’t make a lot of sense to me. I can already purchase advertising anywhere I want to.
I’d like to see a prediction from the Arena people. The Arena is scheduled to open Fall 2009. What big events should I expect on 2010? NCAA regional? Are you going after that?
I want to have a benchmark to judge the Arena by.
There’s no negativity to it, unless you consider opposition a negative.
Of course it isn’t and people are entitled to their view on a matter that comes directly out of their pocketbooks.
The arena project appears to be a muddled-we don’t know where we are going with this project- and it’s cost increases are occurring daily.
Everything was supposed to be set in place at the initial vote. It wasn’t – someone changed what was on the ballot to what their dream was.
That’s not the way things are done. Sedgwick County gave a vote to the arena, then started changing stuff.
This should have been worked out completely before the vote.
republican – agree 100%. As for the accusations of ‘negativity’; that is their typical refuge. Well, add this muddled project to the fiasco with the bowling tournament and citizens have reason to be skeptical.
Maybe Joe and Mrage can team up and salvage the bowling tournament with their Arena. Show us its value for tourism!
There isn’t any muddle to it. Go to the Sedgwick County’s website on the Arena link.
They have been as public as they can with this project, including monthly tax receipts, what they have spent, break down of everything you can think of. All the minutes of the Citizen Tax Oversight Committee and so on.
No! Being in opposition to the downtown arena isn’t being negative. Saying it’s going to hurt our economy and cost billions in overrun cost and sit empty and go bankrupt is. When you speculate disaster or negative things happening, then you’re being negative. Being against something, isn’t. You voted against in back in 2004. You did what you thought was right.
Joe! I still wonder … what can I look forward to in 2010? NCAA?
Is it being negative to note the loss of the bowling tournament or is that simply noting reality? Is it being negative to point out a 45% cost overrun (so far) in core land/construction costs? No, it is simply noting reality.
Joe! You WILL get your Arena. I do not doubt that. I just want to know what will be IN it. What are the criteria for success?
I have no say in this argument, though I have certainly paid as much in sales tax as many Sedgewick county residents. I really thought from the beginning the Arena was a bad idea, and continue to do so. However, I have one question to ask those who are wanting a revote:Should every election be made accessible to a revote months later? thanks
lj – generally NO. However, if there are substantial changes in the project then YES. I contende that a 45% increase in core costs coupled with a 72% decrease in parking/loss reserve/infrastructure provision constiture substantial changes.
By the way; there WAS a re-vote on the Arena already. It was defeated over 2-to-1 previously.
Big 12 has zero interest in Wichita when it comes to hosting games. Don’t believe me? Email them and ask where they want to play there games.
If the County handles the Arena like the Bowling Congress Invitational, then we are in deep doo doo.
Ben-Thanks for the answer. I am just curious. I am more concerned about the process than any particular result, hence my question.
“Should every election be made accessible to a revote months later? thanks”—————–
I don’t think so. There needs to be a good reason before a re-vote is granted.
In this case, I think the evidence is pretty clear – the cost the citizens voted upon – is SUBSTANTIALLY less than what is now being projected.
That means the arena that was approved is NOT the arena as planned today.
Compare it to the citizens voting to approve erecting a large statue of a President, only to find out later, that “president” was the guy from Iran.
Bait and switch.
Deserves a re-vote.
The analogy I use GS that you might find relevant is if I submit a construction bid and you have accepted it. I then find that costs will increase by half. I think we start over with a new revised bid.
Ben…
I agree… Time to re-bid and re-vote.
Should every election be made accessible to a revote months later? thanks
Yes… Thats how our government is strucutred. Anything can be replealed by a revote of the public.
Yes… Thats how our government is strucutred. Anything can be replealed by a revote of the public.
Posted by: Tony | May 21, 2007 at 01:41 PM
What? Where is that delineated?
Thanks to those who answered my question. Personally, as if anybody cares,my vote is no, elecitons should not be redoable.I think to do so throws the whole system into chaos. And while I understand that CERTAIN electtions (actually elected people), can be subject to recall, it is generaly not how are system is structered. As I stated, I care more about the process than the individual outcome. Sometimes my candidate wins, sometimes he loses. The system will survive, and recover,as long as we keep the system intact, it will overcome the “bad’ of any particular outcome, at least in my opinion
lj – how about in a situation such as this where there have been subtantial (45%) changes? I might also add other circumstances where situations change. Issues routinely get ‘revisited’ in light of new information.
Hmmm.Well, I understand your frustration, and it makes some sense, but i worry about long term circumstances. Many elections these days are closely won by one side or the other. Many politicians and issues get “modified” as time goes along.To go and redecide every election that the situation changes, treads too heavily on the system, inmy opinion.
Valid point lj. In which case, after it was voted down over 2-to-1 that should have been the end of it.
I agree.
Republican,
>Big 12 has zero interest in Wichita when it comes to hosting games. Don’t believe me? Email them and ask where they want to play there games.
In my email box is a reply from
Dru HancockAssociate Commissioner
Big 12 Conference400 East John Carpenter FreewayIrving, TX 75062
Its up to the host city to bid for the Big 12 tournament. That’s not my job. County has to do it. I asked him what’s the requirement for seating for their tournament.
He said, 18,000 for men. Women need their own arena.They like at least 10,000 for the women. The tournament requires two facilities.
The State of Kansas is not unfamiliar to the Big 12 at all. Wichita isn’t hidden from their view. We haven’t built any facility they could use for the full basketball tournament.
They only moved it around for the first time to Oklahoma City. Big 12 basketball is new at moving the tournament around.
The Big 12 appreciates cities within the Big 12 area offering to host their basketball tournament.
If we had the facility, that event should happen within the State of Kansas and the only facility it could host the tournament in this state would be in downtown Wichita.
We have two facilities the tournament needs an 18,000 seat arena downtown and using Koch Arena for the Big 12 womens tournament.
Minor problem there … 15,000 seats is NOT 18,000 seats.
Somehow I typed my name there..coughing up the weekend sickness is so fun!
The Big 12 is accessible if the right person to talk with is found. My letter was forwarded to Dru Hancock.
I did explain our problem, so far the County is building a 15,000 seat arena.
A beat writer on the Big 12 tournament in Oklahoma City said, Wichita shouldn’t get our “hopes up” because we’re building a smaller arena.
That pissed me off! We’re choosing to let arena events pass us by?
The Big 12 is excited about the variety of arena’s and their communities bidding for the tournament.
A beat writer on the Big 12 tournament in Oklahoma City said, Wichita shouldn’t get our “hopes up” because we’re building a smaller arena.
That pissed me off! We’re choosing to let arena events pass us by?
Oh well … I guess YOU better call someone at the County.
;^)
Ben has mentioned many times about the 45% increase in price but no one has really mentioned the design flaws in the entire complex.
This is an arena and not a convention center. It is not being designed as one. It is not being designed to accept a hotel/convention center built next door. There is no parking. There are thousands of sq ft being taken by the elite for private seating which is taking away from the overall seating capacity.
This is ridiculous, the facility that SHOULD be built should be a convention center first, an arena second. IF it were built as a convention center with hotel attached, I will bet you we would still have the bowling congress.
Tony,
The key event pertaining to a new convention center is the Aug.7th vote for the Casino.
Wichita will promote the plan that sells as much city property it can.
One plan has property designed to take the Library and build a casino by the river. Behind Century II. If Hyatt is sold as well, then the City will have funds to create a larger convention center if they want.
There is no evidence Century II will close and stop having conventions there. The interior should be upgraded, it has to be.
Convention center and any new hotel downtown are City projects.
Not the County at all.
You can’t deny our shot to replace the Coliseum because of the City.
Since Century II and The Hyatt are next to each other, why did the Bowling Championship deny the facilities?
Because their not new?
The Bowling Championship group probably has a member who will benefit if the event is in another city. Wichita can rebid for 2011, but will have competition.
Something sinister about that.
We already have a Hotel and Convention Center.
Plus the vote was for an Arena, not a convention center and hotel project.
45% in price? No! It was an adjustment to the budget. The arena still cost less than $185 million, the vote request for it in the first place.
Joe,
“The arena still cost less than $185 million,” How? the current budget is 201 Mil. How is the arena less than 185 Mil? last time i was in kindergarden, 201 is more than 185.
Sigh!
http://sedgwickcounty.org/arena/fact_sheets/ArenaCosts12.06.pdf
Sigh…
Joe, what was the original price of the arena than before the county inflated the price due to the overrun in the tax income???
I’ll go dig though my emails and find the original price tags before the price hike tomorrow, im tired…
Sorry! You can say what ever you want about the original price tag. The downtown arena still cost less than 184.5 million dollars. The original estimate.
You can play with the figures if you want. The vote was 184.5 million. You didn’t vote for the particular breakdown cost of the project. Only Yes or No to a 1 cent sales tax for 30 months to collect 184.5 million dollars.
The $201 million figure is an increase of the budget based on projections to the tax collection in the 30 months. They predict they will collect 201 million dollars when all said and done. Since the money HAS to go towards the downtown arena and pavilions, then that is what they did. Increase the budget.
But the arena cost, Total is under 184.5 million dollars.
Good luck on you spin! Ben’s been playing that card for months.
No spin Joe. According to figures given by the County the ‘core costs’ – land acquisition, demolition, construction – have increased by 45%. This has been covered by slashing provisions for future losses, parking, infrastructure etc by 72%.
I have the pdf files from Sedgwick County available for anyone who wants to see them. I also have my accounting analysis of that.
You say they increased the budget simply because they have extra cash. Then why did they SLASH these other funds?
Keep on spinning Joe. If you like; I will even provide YOU with my official county source materials.
Pick the reason why to re-vote please.
Too many have a variety of issues.
Some hide behind their dislike for the downtown location. Parking is a disqualification by itself.
Yet Kelly Parks and Gwen Welshiemer vocal critics of the arena prior to county election say nothing now.
If something was terrible about the downtown location, they have no reason to stay silent. They weren’t on the commission when the original vote happened.
Get elected and instantly personal views are shut down?
Cost overruns are projections until all the tax is collected.
Some are anti-tax no matter what.
Sedgwick County has benefited with the temporary sales tax, visitors also helped pay.
Better than property tax increases everyone has to agree.
Why create community bad spirit when other cities grow their arena’s from ideas to construction celebrating growth.
Cities improving their event facilities, looking forward to variety of new events. A better venue for normal happening events.
Some don’t like Wichita all, those can live on the fringes. So what the city improves what’s in it for them.
Other communities determined a regional size in seating as necessary. Yet the County got an “expert” to say we need a 15,000 seat arena.
That expert I highly question. That individual sounds like Wichita shouldn’t desire growth.
Some don’t think they will ever be in the downtown arena. Can’t afford tickets is a statement.
Can’t disqualify the arena for those who can afford the tickets.
They shouldn’t make the decision for those who want to participate.Fixed income were saved property tax increases.
Communities around us are competitive. Some don’t Wichita to succeed that way. Some don’t mind Wichita at all. Knowing we’re never going to compete with their city.
Kansas City has stepped down in seating for the Sprint Center. Its a professional sports facility eventually but until they get a team as the key tenant, their arena will act like other neighboring states arenas.
A KC design group that help build The Sprint Center is designing ours.
I have to believe in the conspiracy their first interest was to keep Wichita from competing with their Sprint Center.
They can’t deny our growth potential if pushed. Believers of 15,000 seats have to pushed.
The Arena could stay busier with 18,000 seats and some of those events on National TV, all the better.
Busier the arena, less fears of cost overruns will cause taxes to rise.
We have the chance to be arena competitive in this regional area.
Why hate on Wichita, not wanting the community to succeed?
We are not succeeding with the Coliseum. It had to be replaced.
Corporate naming rights on other arena’s help some funding.
But the key financing came from citizens in those communities.
Searching for a corporate name sooner than later, but first lets make sure the arena should be competitive enough.
What’s the tax money collected, what’s affordable arena to build.
If its an exciting plan, financial partners should race to be involved.
I think many understand the 15,000 seats isn’t a fully appreciated sized arena. Many have seen events in larger arenas.
Some breakdown to hating the design completely. Re-vote to stop the ugly structure from being rebuilt.
The Coliseum is a dump and ugly, anyone who values that facility I disqualify their taste.
Add up all the re-vote desires it means Wichita shouldn’t try. The County shouldn’t try to improve either.
I don’t know why you guys even listen to an illiterate like Mrage.
When someone demonstrates month after month that they haven’t even absorbed an elementary education, why should we think they have anything worth listening to?
Please, Mrage, stop posting and embarrassing our city.
“The downtown arena still cost less than 184.5 million dollars. The original estimate.”
Now that is laughable !!! if it costs less than 184 million it will end up being a pole barn — energy costs alone will cause the costs to exceed 184 million
Why hasn’t the Eagle ever reported on public opinion that the arena vote was fixed? We all know that Wichita has always been run by builders and realtors. The office of the Wichita Area Builders Association is located at 730 N. Main, and the election office is located at 510 N. Main (hint). We watched the returns the night of the election, and the “no” votes were consistently ahead up until bedtime. Did the same thing happen as in the presidential election in 2004? An article in USA Today in January 2005 showed John Kerry leading President Bush 51% to 49% up until 10:00p.m. the night of the election. From 10:00 p.m. until about 1:00 a.m., the system was down due to computer problems. After it came back up at 1:00 a.m., it was President Bush who was ahead of Kerry by 51% to 49%. I guess you can draw your own conclusion about what happens after dark…
Today I found out why there won’t be another vote on the downtown arena………….the coliseum has plans to become a gambling casino.